AS263: Sarah Haider

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 263, and I am your host, Thomas Smith. Alright, just a couple things before I get to a really cool interview that will be this entire week. My guest is Sarah Haider. I'm so glad to finally have her on the show, and we did a nice, long recording, going to be two parts. But before that, I just want to let you know, there's more reasons than ever to donate at patreon.com/atheist, one of which is a bonus content from Tim from last week, some bonus history. This time it's about where Christians are getting their history wrong. So that's a whole bonus episode that I just posted on the Patreon. Another reason is you'll get this entire Sarah Haider interview early. So it's in two parts because it's quite long, but you will get access to the entire thing ahead of schedule, and that's great reason to be a patron.

0:01:22 Thomas: So as little as a dollar a show, www.patreon.com/atheist Alright, with that out of the way, let's get to that interview with Sarah Haider.

0:01:41 Thomas: Joining me right now is Sarah Haider. How are you doing tonight?

0:01:45 Sarah: I'm doing real well. How are you?

0:01:47 Thomas: I'm doing great. I'm really excited to speak to you. I've been following you for quite a while. I think it was that talk, was it American Humanist Conference? I want to say it was. That was when, yeah, that must have been a big thing because I noticed after that it seemed like you were everywhere. And it has a ton of views on YouTube, so that's a really cool thing. And ever since then, I've kind of kept an eye on you and I'm really excited to have you on the show.

0:01:58 Sarah: Yeah.

0:02:12 Sarah: Oh, thank you. I'm excited to be here.

0:02:13 Thomas: So why don't you tell us for the people who aren't familiar with you a little bit about, you know, your experience being an ex-Muslim now and how that went for you in your early life and stuff like that.

0:02:24 Sarah: So I grew up, you know, what I would call liberal parents, like we're a liberal family in a Muslim context Which is just to say that I was allowed freedoms that I think that many Muslims even most Muslim women aren't allowed even in the Western world and And so to that extent, I had it easy growing up as a Muslim woman. And by that, I mean, I was able to move out for college. I mean it was a real struggle to get there, but I convinced my parents that it would be okay, it wouldbe safe for me to live on my own for a bit. And so in that sense, I grew up in a much more liberal and tolerant atmosphere. Having said that, it's not very liberal or very tolerant if you think about it from an American perspective, if you look at it from a Western perspective and the freedoms that we usually give to, you know, our especially our girls.

0:02:32 Thomas: Right.

0:03:18 Sarah: So in that perspective, it doesn't. So I think that I do have interesting view on on what it's like to be a Muslim in America.

0:03:26 Thomas: Because this isn't you came if I remember right, you came over to America. I want to say like age eight, you said at

0:03:26 Sarah: Right. I, I, we, we moved from my family immigrated from Pakistan and I was, I think seven or eight. I'm not, I'm not actually quite sure how old I was. But I think I, S I think, I remember celebrating my eighth birthday in America. So I was here then. And, uh, immigrant experience is very interesting. I think it, it takes longer than, than people, what people would assume for immigrants to truly absorb the culture around them, especially if it is a culture like Pakistan, which is so, so different in almost every measurable sense of the term. So it takes a lot longer than what people assume, sometimes even generations, several generations for immigrants, I think, to fully acclimate and behave in the way that the average American would.

0:04:22 Sarah: But it is possible. And it is something that we should encourage. And I think my story and the story of my family, which is that we have evolved, we've gotten more tolerant, we're gotten more liberal, is encouraging, but it's also educating in the sense that it does take time. It takes a lot of effort. It take a lot pushing from one side to get immigrants to be more liberal.

0:04:45 Thomas: Can I ask real quick, do you have a firm memory of, or some firm memories of when you were in Pakistan, like how your family dynamic might've been different or was it too young for you to be able to tell?

0:04:58 Sarah: Well, I remember, and the thing is, it wasn't immediately different when we got here. I mean, we behaved as if we were in Pakistan for a long time, for many years. Things started to change a little bit, and my mom started working. And like I said, my father has always been a little but more liberal than the average Muslim Pakistani man. Man. So he, right.

0:05:03 Thomas: Right.

0:05:19 Thomas: But someone we would still, like typical Americans might still think of as pretty conservative, right?

0:05:25 Sarah: I think very conservative in, in what, in what we would consider in regular American, I guess, in the sense that, not sure exactly how to best illustrate it, but I could say going out for, for example, for the, the females of the household, is frowned upon. You know, you don't really go out after certain, they have a very strict curfews, even adult women. So I could go home right now and I'm an adult woman who, you know, is on her own and supports herself, but if I go home, suddenly I have a curfew on my head, right. And it's, it's strange, but they just, they don't want other Muslims to see me, and, you know, to see me out, and it would be a shame on them. So,

0:05:26 Thomas: And

0:06:05 Sarah: It's one of those things

0:06:06 Thomas: That's not a function of age. That's just because you're you're, you're a woman. That's all it is. It's not like, you know, because there's still technically, yeah.

0:06:07 Sarah: Right. It's because I'm a woman. And yeah. It would be different if I, you know, had a husband and I was going out with him, then it's okay, right.

0:06:17 Thomas: Oh, right. Then it, then it's his problem. Gotcha. Okay. Interesting. So that started to, to slowly change. And, and would you say your parents have also gotten more liberal? It's not just, you being the first generation kind of in America, it's, have your parents grown more liberal, more liberal as well from the experience?

0:06:22 Sarah: Yeah.

0:06:40 Sarah: I think they've, they're much more liberal now, they're much more tolerant now, and they're educated people in to begin with, so I think I have a little bit of a heads up. And America, immigrants to the United States tend to be more educated. It's harder to immigrate here than it is to say go to, you know, the UK or even Canada. So the immigrants that come here, Muslim immigrants, tend to being more educated, and as a consequence, I think a little bit more liberal to begin with, or a little bit more accepting of liberal values once they are introduced to them. So, improved, I think, and they have over time, and that has been encouraging to me.

0:07:18 Thomas: That's awesome. So I oh, you didn't talk much about losing your faith, if you don't mind. What was that process like for you?

0:07:24 Sarah: It was like having the rug pulled out from underneath my feet. It was just, it felt like my world was just so radically different, and I anything around me. I would say it's like taking off blinders or just, I'm not sure how else to describe it, but it was, well, there were many, many catalysts that sort of led to it, but it just all came to a head in one year, very, very close. It took me maybe, I would say a couple of months to begin to question and then to lose it. And I was always a questioning questioning person, which is to say, I always had, um, I always poke, tried to poke holes into things.

I tried to find reason, the reason why I say God would do, you know, X, Y, Z, and I would, uh, pressure my, my, um religious instructors to explain things to me.

And I wouldn't really, you know, I wouldn't really accept any narrative as it was given, but, a lot of things, um just happened very, very quickly that that sort of shattered um whole like veneer that that religion had for me and some of it was looking into philosophy reading about you know what morality is how we how we understand morality what objective morality is what subjective

0:07:47 Thomas: Was there like a catalyst that you can remember that really set it off for you. Wow.

0:08:45 Sarah: Morality is um the problem of evil and all these different atheist lines of thinking I was introduced to some of those um Well

0:08:52 Thomas: So what, but so who was introducing you to those? Was there a conflict with your parents about that at all? Or was it, were they pretty easygoing? Or, you know, were you sneaking in some atheist literature or something? Or how did that go?

0:09:04 Sarah: I think my parents they they allowed me to read whatever I wanted I think they they couldn't have imagined that it would lead to where it did I think If I think if they had known things might be different but I don't think they knew where it was going to go because it's it's atheism is so unheard of um from Muslim cultures it it's looked at as a Western phenomena it's experienced as a Western phenomenon. It doesn't really happen to Muslims, or so most Muslims think. I think the apostasy stigma is just so extreme, and the lack of knowledge about religion and non-religion, it creates this atmosphere where there are just really no atheists that you know, and people just aren't willing to talk about religion openly anyway. So you wouldn't know know it if they were around you. So I don't think they, they thought that any literature I had was going to take me there.

0:09:08 Thomas: Hmm. Oh, right.

0:09:57 Sarah: Um, but even it was stuff about debunking Christianity. You know, I read things about, about how the, the Christ-like figure, you know, is, is exists in so many different myths, um, way before, you Know, Jesus, uh, as we, as мы think of him from the Christian myth existed. And it was, it was things like that, that started to make me question the Quran too, too, because I started applying that same sort of thinking to Islamic myths. Didn't help was being introduced to sort I guess, what you would call militant atheists, because I joined the debate team, and there were just so many there. The debate team I think is one of those places where it's difficult not to be an atheist.

0:10:41 Thomas: Is this high school or college?

0:10:43 Sarah: This was high school. This this was high school and there were many atheists there and they were happy to debate others and they were, you know, they loved it and they liked to talk about it. And so I met a few of those. I, they, they started questioning me directly, um, about my faith. And that was some of, that was the first time I think I really thought about it, uh, in depth, um. Mostly to debunk them because I wanted to prove them wrong. And then when I looked into it closer myself, I realized that they were they had a point they were right.

0:10:43 Thomas: High school. Okay, gotcha. Hmm.

0:11:12 Sarah: I lost it well well I you know I never you know I don't think these people know that that they had this effect on me because I you know I just sort of started looking into it myself I would Google these things, read up, and figure it out. And then, you know, you have this sense of like the sense of shame because you think, oh, I've been duped, you know.

0:11:11 Thomas: And you lost the debate. They won the trophy. No, I'm just kidding. Oh,

0:11:35 Sarah: I thought this was real.

0:11:35 Thomas: Well, you Know, that's usually how it works. People don't change their mind on the spot. It never happens. But it's really cool that it can start a process, and it sounds like it did for you, of a little bit of grain of doubt. And then if you're someone who actually likes to research things and look into the matter and don't just ignore it, then it can change a person's mind.

0:11:58 Sarah: Right. And I think that that's why being an outspoken atheist is important. And it's one thing to be, you know, an asshole and get in people's faces, but it's another to be open about it, to be ready to just say that, well, this is a religious teaching and you're free to believe it, but I think it's nonsense. Sense, you know, you can Say I As

0:12:17 Thomas: That's interesting. Yeah, can we talk about that a little bit? Because I'm just thinking, and I want to pause on your journey, definitely. I want to get back to it, but I was just thinking, because I've said before on this show, like I'm not, I'm not really an out atheist. Like people, I mean, if someone asks me, I'll tell them, I don't pretend or anything, but. I wonder, because there's, there's a couple of different lenses that, you know, I am looking at this through for you because there is, there is one thing to be an an atheist just in America. That's a separate issue. And then there there's the whole ex-Muslim part of it, which is like an entirely different can of worms. So in your, I just wonder in your like regular adult life, are you just out atheist all the time? Like, do you, I mean, are You pretty open with it or?

0:13:01 Sarah: Much as it's appropriate. So in In work, at work, you know, I don't really, I don't bring it in because I don't think, you know, religion or politics really belong, um, at work in general, but if I'm socializing with friends, I'll, I'll talk about it, I'll bring it up. I, I think that that's, it's very difficult to get rid of that hesitancy to, to be open about our atheism. I think a lot of us are weirdly embarrassed about it and I understand that feeling, but at the same time that's, it's it's really harmful. I think it keeps people in religion when, you know, there are a lot people who just, they just really haven't stopped to think about it for two seconds. And if they have, if they, if they think about it for just a couple of days, they'll reach the conclusion, you know, that Because

0:13:02 Thomas: Sure. Yeah.

0:13:44 Thomas: Well, I think, yeah, totally. And I think most people in America, I can only speak to, you know, kind of my experience, but most people are probably cool with you or I saying, saying, oh, yeah, I'm an atheist. Let's say it's a party or something. The topic comes up for some reason. Most people are cool, but there's always that one. You're never sure. There could be that one person.

0:14:05 Thomas: Brenda. Brenda's at the party. She's like, oh my, you don't accept Jesus. And then there's a whole scene. There's always a risk in the US, a little bit. Maybe you might

0:13:45 Sarah: Yeah Yeah Yeah Right Right There Is absolutely, but I think we, we, we still have to put ourselves in that situation, even though it's an awkward one. And even though we're sort of, you might, you Might ruin the party. But, you know, I think there are ways about of going about it that aren't, I mean, religious criticism in no matter how, you Know, how much you sugar it up, it's going to be a bitter pill to swallow for the very religious, no matter what, you know, there's really no way of sugarcoating it. But I think that it's, that's what we got to do. You know, we got To bring it up when they when they least

0:14:22 Thomas: Ruin Your Party, yeah.

0:14:52 Thomas: Sure.

0:14:53 Sarah: Suspected they're at a party, they're having a good time. And here it comes. Mean, I'm exaggerating. But I think that at least not hiding it, you know, at least not being ashamed about it. And if it is relevant to a conversation, I'll bring it up. You know, I' ll talk about it and I'll say, Hey, I respect you as a person. I don't respect this belief. It doesn't make sense to me. Um, and I don't see how anyone else would, you know, um, I have lost religious friends, you knows, many religious friends when, when I began to be more out and open about my atheism and that's a shame, but quite a few stayed. And I think their opinion about on religion has changed just by, you Know, being associated with me. Uh, so I think that that's, you KNOW, that's something, I think That's something that's that's positive.

0:15:01 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. So, debate team, you back to, the back to the timeline here and

0:15:41 Sarah: Right. So I I joined the debate team and, you know, this was around the time I was looking into this anyway and thinking about these things. And that sort of, it gave me these tools of thinking, being a part of a debate team, because I don't know if all your audience will be familiar, but I bet many are. I know a lot of atheists who have experience with like a debate team or a debate club at some time. But just that you have to have this ability of looking at anything from, from both sides and being able to argue it well. And so you, you get to learn rhetorical, uh, tricks, you know, and, and ways of, of rational thinking and pulling apart arguments. And those are like, once you're armed with it, it's hard not to apply it to everything. I mean, it was for me, it Was hard.

It was for me difficult not to Apply it to, to everything, including religion. Um, so, so once that happened, And, um, my religious faith, it was, there was no way it was going to, even if I had tried to stay religious and actually did, that's what I was trying to do. I was dying to hold on to my faith and keep it. And in doing so, I lost it.

0:15:59 Thomas: You Said that only took like two months or something. Sure.

0:16:47 Sarah: It took a couple, a couple of months. I don't know about two. Um, It's hard. I don't remember it. It's just, uh, it.

0:16:51 Thomas: Yeah. It's kind of a gradual thing, but

0:16:53 Sarah: It was a, it Was a blur when I first actively started looking into it. I mean, that period was very, um, right.

0:17:00 Thomas: I mean, when I hear that though, that sounds like a shockingly short amount amount of time. Now, I don't, I'm sure you've spoken to a lot of converts to atheists or deconverts, I guess. Has that been just, just anecdotally? Is that, does that, because to me, it seems short, but is it, what's your, yeah, because I've definitely spoken to people where it's like, well, for 10 years, I was thinking, so that's interesting.

0:17:17 Sarah: That is short. Yeah. That's been my experience too. Yeah. Yeah,

0:17:24 Thomas: I just, I think that's interesting to note. I wonder if any of that could be attributed to, you know, the fact that four Muslims your parents were liberal already, maybe, I don't know, just

0:17:25 Sarah: Yeah.

0:17:35 Sarah: Well, I think, um I think it had to do with a lot of things for, for, for one, I was sort of building the, the skills I needed to dismantle faith really quickly once I began to look at it, you know, for a, for long time. And I was pretty well versed in my faith. So a lot of people assume that I was just one of those Americanized Muslims who didn't know anything about Islam. I mean, I knew a lot about Islam, I know a lot by my faith. I even, you know, I participated, there was a local Sunday school was a small little thing. And I not only did I go, I taught little kids for a little bit and I taught them about the stories of the prophets. And I grew up with Shia Islam, but since all the local mosques around me were Sunni and my parents weren't sectarian in their thinking, they went ahead and let me participate in these, you know, Sunni organizations. There was an Islamic competition that went on every

0:17:38 Thomas: Sure. Lots of factors. So

0:18:32 Sarah: Year in the city that I was in and I did well, you know, couple of times.

0:18:37 Thomas: What What, what does that entail? Just like knowledge of the religion, or what?

0:18:42 Sarah: Every year it's a little bit different. It'll be like a book and it'll have a lot to do with some aspect of the religion and they'll quiz you on it and then there'll be a part where you're on stage. And I mean, there's all these sort of community type events that the Muslim community does and this, this community happened to be a Sunni community, but I was, I was still a part of it and I participated, so I know a lot about, about Sunni as well, yeah.

0:18:51 Thomas: How How unheard of is that, or like how big of a thing is that, that you were part, you know, because being a, you know, an American and looking at, uh, trouble in the Middle East, while Sunni and Shia killing each other, again Like how, yeah.

0:19:17 Sarah: I think it's a little weird, well, it happens uh, when there aren't, when the, your only really outlet is through like your your Shizr, there's very few of us, um, and so if you're in a, if you're in a city and the local mosque is a Sunni mosque, you're going to go to that one or your choice is to not go at all. And many choose to go, you know, some might not choose to go. But I think many do choose to Go. So there were Shia people that I knew also that participated in these events. But

0:19:19 Thomas: Is that pretty, how, how commonplace is that? Is it just an Americanized thing that, hmm.

0:19:42 Thomas: Right.

0:19:54 Thomas: Can I ask

0:19:55 Sarah: Yeah,

0:19:55 Thomas: A potentially dumb question? And apologies for this, but how, is it apparent? Like, how, you go to a Sunni mosque or something, like, do people know, oh, that's not a Sun, you know, like how, can people know from talking to you or from, oh.

0:20:10 Sarah: They'll know. I mean, they would know. And again, I'm only talking from my experience. So we went to, we participated in Sunni events, but mostly Islamic competitions and stuff for kids. But Sunnis and Shias pray a little bit differently. So if you're doing prayer together, they can tell. And so I think that's why a lot of Shias don't, they don't participate. But it all depends on the region. It all depends of the family. My family was liberal enough that they thought that there was nothing wrong with this. So Houston

0:20:10 Thomas: Really? Interesting. How, yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, is that part of it too? Like, is, is it a tight knit community where everyone knows everyone already? Like no matter what, that kind of thing or, oh, okay, okay

0:20:55 Sarah: Has a very, very large Muslim community. It's huge. So no. But now there's actually a large Shia community too. So Shias, I think in Houston, would just go to a Shia mosque. But if you happen to be in a suburb where there's really nothing else, you might send your kids to a Sunni Sunday school, which is what my parents did.

0:21:07 Thomas: Gotcha.

0:21:16 Thomas: So it's the kind of things where it's like if, if a non-Catholic went to a Catholic mass for the first time and was like, ah, what's this thing I gotta do? Oh, I'm walking up here and grabbing some of the wine, like that sort of thing. Like you're just not familiar entirely with, right, right.

0:21:27 Sarah: Or just, or maybe sending your kids to Bible study with that, that's by Catholics,

0:21:32 Thomas: But I mean, In in terms of like standing out is what I meant to say, like you just kind of don't, there's slightly different customs or slightly different ways of of doing things. Gotcha.

0:21:32 Sarah: You know, that sort of thing. You're right, there are.

0:21:42 Thomas: Okay, I was just curious, I didn't know how like obvious of a thing, I I, yeah, so it's like a record scratch situation when you walk in the mosque and then and then everybody stops and looks at you.

0:21:44 Sarah: Yeah, they do. You just, you absolutely stand out.

0:21:53 Sarah: Well, with, you Know, with my, with MyAge, people MyAage tend to be a lot more accepting of like Sunnis more accepting if Shias and Shias More accepting Sunnis. It's older generation, I think it's a little bit different, but my generation tends to be a little bit more accepting, or at least that's how I saw it.

0:22:03 Thomas: Hmm.

0:22:12 Thomas: Now, I, I actually, uh, if you don't mind, like I do find this really interesting. And And the difference, Sunni and Shia, it all comes down to what? Isn't it like one of the early descendants of the prophet and whether or not that's the

0:22:24 Sarah: It's about, it's more about who took, who takes control after the death of the prophet, so everything prior to the death, you can say that that Sunnis and Shias agree on, and Shia is split, also split further into different, different kinds of Shias, and Sunnis have their own schools of thought, so there's, there's, there's differences within differences, you can just yeah, you can just keep going for for for quite some time.

0:22:34 Thomas: Same. Gotcha.

0:22:46 Thomas: Further diversity. Yeah, yeah, sure. Is this the biggest split among the like different little, you know, most obvious ones?

0:22:55 Sarah: The most obvious one, it's the most clear one, I mean, and it's she she has have additional rituals, many Sunnis would, you know, consider almost blasphemous. I'm not sure if a lot of people are familiar with with what, what which she is due in the month of Muharram, which is this month where you essentially grieve for the death of this important person. And I don't want to go into too much detail, but that's essentially what it is. And it's this bizarre, I encourage everyone to look it up and look at the rites involved. And there are, you know, essentially you go to a mass every day, which you could consider a mass, like a funeral mass. And you know people will beat their chests you know in mourning you know there's um some people they'll take uh chains and they'll like beat their backs with them I mean it's this it's this it it's a strange it's very it's Very Ritualistic um and

0:22:57 Thomas: Sure. Hmm. Hmm. Oh, wow. Wow. And that's,

0:23:53 Sarah: Sunnis don't do that at all Sunnis Don't Do That At All That's A That's a That's

0:23:53 Thomas: Is it, okay. Is that just like the fundamentalist Shia or is that like everybody that's all? Oh, interesting. Okay.

0:24:00 Sarah: Shias In General You know that's just, that's a very, it's a common Shia thing, but Shias are not, from my experience, are not as, uh, dogmatic, they're more ritual based, so they they go to they go, these rituals, but, I, you know, Shias tend to be, first for example, Shias don't, um, the hadith is a Sunni thing altogether, so that the entire part of the scriptures, Shias don't, um, don't really prescribe to which she has

0:24:12 Thomas: Oh, okay。 Oh, really? I did not know that. I feel so dumb because that's the reference all the time. I didn't know it was only a Sunni thing.

0:24:32 Sarah: She does have their own they have their own sort of scriptures also in addition they're they're fucked up in their own ways but again I know a lot about Sunni scriptures because of my time in Sunni schools

0:24:42 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Right.- So, another general question, if you don't mind, was I was just wondering like Like, how familiar were you? Now, you've said that you were, you know, you mentioned these competition kind of things and that you are really in touch with your religion or at least knowledgeable of it. How in touch is the typical, I guess, American Muslim with the Quran? Is it like, because I know with Christians, it's like half the Christians I know, they don't even know what's in the Bible. They have no clue, you could mention something and they're like, oh yeah, is that, I don't know. Could be in there, but it's also, the Bible is an eternity long, so it's really, it's harder to know everything in there. But what's your experience with that? Did you know, would you have known the Quran front to back, or what was your familiarity when you were a Muslim?

0:25:21 Sarah: Right well my familiarity was pretty good but I don't know how much I resemble the average Muslim I don'T think I DON'T think I do different about Muslims is that Muslims Muslims live their lives more according to the Quran than Christians do according to the Bible. Whether or not, this doesn't necessarily mean they know the Quran better. It just means that their society hasn't really, you know, walked away, right?

0:25:54 Sarah: So in so many ways, when I talk to Christians, they don't even know that something is or isn't a Christian, you now, belief. They just assume it is, younow, they'll, they just assume, yeah, well,

0:25:36 Thomas: Hmm. Okay. Sure. Oh, like it's still structured. Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, anything good, yeah or like anything Anything conservative or something, or marriage or whatever, yeah, that's the Bible. That man and the woman, it's like, well, that'S not really in there.

0:26:11 Sarah: They're just assume, right, anything they think is good, they''ll just be like, this is in the Bible, anything bad is in it in the Bible. Muslims are the same way. Well, so Muslims are the same, but their society actually does reflect the Quran more closely than does Christian society, like Western societies reflect Christianity. So in that sense, they happen to know more, but not necessarily because they're more studious, not necessarily, because they read the Quran, um, more often. Large large parts of the Muslim world, I mean, they're, they're poor, they'RE not super literate, so we have those sort of issues, too.

0:26:15 Thomas: Yeah, because chances are. Yeah, that' s funny.

0:26:29 Thomas: Yeah, and that's also a problem, I' m guessing, because it makes the society way less secular, right? I mean, the religion is way more a part of government and everyday life in the Middle East.

0:26:56 Sarah: Right. Well, what's interesting is that because Islam spreads so wide, and it really, like, Islamic, um, and what, what I call Islamic imperialism, you know, it, they, they went and they conquered different peoples, peoples with different cultures. I mean first, the first culture clash from, from just them, but also them. But, you know, conquering Persia, conquering, you now, South Asia, these cultures are very different. And when they adapted to Islam, a lot of it, this strange thing happened where parts of South Asian culture just became part of Islam. I mean, there was a fusion there, a little bit. And so now that people are getting getting more literate. They're actually able to read the Quran literally, and they're able to see that, okay, well, this is actually a cultural belief that we've been doing and not what's in the actual Quran. So they're, they're actually getting more literal in some senses. Some people are, I think, I'm pervades hood boy, who is a, Pakistani nuclear physicist. I think he's talked about this. I think it's him. I just, I want to make sure to credit whoever, Whoever it was

0:27:13 Thomas: Talking the Ottomans.

0:28:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:28:03 Sarah: That I got this idea from, I think it was him. But he talked about this a little bit. With the rising literacy, you also get rising literalism when it comes to religious belief. In places like South Asia, where generally the religion wasn't so extreme, now you're having people who can read the Quran. And they know, okay, well, this thing that we're doing, this is just a cultural thing. And we can let go of that, you know.

0:28:11 Thomas: Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Right.

0:28:25 Sarah: And here's what the religion actually is. So I think that's an interesting aspect.

0:28:26 Thomas: That's Really Interesting. It's Sort of a, it's sort of like a toss-up, like, which will be better or worse, like, you don't know. It's just, maybe they're getting rid of a bad cultural practice because it's not in the Crown, but who knows, maybe they are getting Rid of a good one. Interesting. Well, Sorry For Sidetracking You so much, but it's really, I really like learning about this stuff, it's fascinating. So, uh, so you're going to a Sunni mosque and that sort of thing, and uh, and, and so that's how you're familiar with that, but uh, but yeah, pretty quick, two month deconversion ish couple month deconvention, right?

0:28:40 Sarah: Right. Right, right. Exactly. Exactly, you know, so it, a couple months, it happened very fast. I, this isn't common, as far as I know. I Talked to a lot of ex-Muslims, and I talked about their journeys, and a lot people struggle with it for a long, long time, but mine was, you know, a couple of months, uh, maybe half a year at most, I don't Think it was any longer than that, but it was very quick when it happened. It just, it just like a house of cards, it just collapsed, it Just Happened I

0:29:03 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:29:24 Thomas: But How Did that Go With your, your family, though? Because usually with Muslims, I mean, that's going to be a pretty serious thing.

0:29:29 Sarah: Didn't reveal it to them immediately, it took It took a long time, uh, for me to, you, you have to be, you have sort of gauge where they are And how receptive They, they are going to be this, because you know, um, how, how diff, how what you're doing is just, it's, it's a massive shift. You know, you're not breaking the rules away. It would be different if I said, you know, dad, I have a boyfriend.

0:29:32 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:29:53 Sarah: That's one thing. But to say that, I mean, that is also terrible. And my parents would be very, I means, they would not be happy with that at all. But to say I've lost my faith is something deeper. You can say you have to break up with your boyfriend, and I'm gonna, you know, have you talk to a whoever, and uh, we're gonna set you to rights, and you'll be, you know, hopefully you're walking this, this wrong path, but you can, you can go back to a life of virtue. But if it's something like a very considered disbelief, which is what I had, I think it's seen, it was seen as more dire to, to my parents, because I mean, it makes sense, right? Right. Because I'm really rejecting

0:29:56 Thomas: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's more

0:30:32 Sarah: Everything.

0:30:32 Thomas: Fundamental, I guess? Yeah, it is. Not like a temporary thing you can fix by, by just dumping that, that guy. Your date? No, so and And, and as far as that goes, that is just because you, what, you would not be married, it is just, you cannot, is that what it is, or, in terms of having a boyfriend being like this, also this really bad thing with your parents?

0:30:34 Sarah: Right. Oh, well, it's just in Muslim cultures, most Muslim cultures. Anytime. OK, so just let me apply this to everything that I say. Not all Muslim culture. Right, but I think.

0:30:58 Thomas: Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, you're speaking for all 1.6 billion. We know. We can judge all of them based on what you're saying. Okay, go ahead. Oh,

0:31:12 Sarah: So, from from what I understand, it just isn't something that happens. Happens, you don't date before you get married, it's a arranged marriage is very very common, um, or some people, some people do date, but it's not in the western sense at all, you know, those are, they're, these are very um, like you're almost just spending time with them as a friend, if if you are at all, then usually not alone, um, you know, we can spend time with then with also a group of friends or spend time them with their family and you know, that's the way, I know some people that go around it, but for the most part there is no dating really, um, there's just

0:31:21 Thomas: Right.

0:31:39 Thomas: Gotcha. So, is Arranged marriage still kind of a thing even among Muslims in the U.S.? Like, or is it just in Pakistan? But

0:31:51 Sarah: It's Not the same as, usually it's not the same as what it, what it would, what it would be in Pakistan, so you might know them from, you know, mosque or school or whatever, so you know this person and you're maybe already friends and you like them and then your parents, you know, figure something out, so it's like

0:32:09 Thomas: It's Still Them It's still them deciding though, yeah.

0:32:10 Sarah: Right. It's It's It's the parents have a, the parents have a role to play that they just, they just don't play in western, in western unions at at all, so it's definitely more extreme, but it varies from family to family and how, how liberal they are, generally speaking it's it's not like a western courtship, uh, or if it is, it's in secret, you know, it's, you hide your boyfriend, that kind of thing, if you have one at all.

0:32:13 Thomas: Okay. Oh. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm.

0:32:39 Sarah: But I did not have one when I was a Muslim, I, I behaved, I was good Muslims.

0:32:43 Thomas: Right. How long did it take for you to, you know, come out to your parents that you were an atheist?

0:32:51 Sarah: Would I, I, let, let them know a little bit at a time, so I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to It

0:32:54 Thomas: How Does That work Though You, you pick like a random god and just say you don't believe in that god and then eventually get all like a hundred thousand. No, I'm just kidding.

0:33:04 Sarah: Would be, it would be things like, um, you know, like

0:33:08 Thomas: Hey, Thor, I don't believe in Thor. Just letting you know. Yeah.

0:33:10 Sarah: Specific issues, like I would start talking about, okay, well, this is, these gender expectations are messed up, you know, this this doubt, that this, um, uh, female witness or whatever it is, you know, these various aspects of of how women are treated in in Islam, and I could bring them up and talk about how, that you know, this doesn't seem moral to me, I don't understand how this is moral, and I'd have them sort of explain it to me, and then we'd bring up another topic, and then another and another, and then eventually I said, you know, this whole religion thing doesn't make any sense to me. I don't know.

0:33:13 Thomas: Right. Yeah, okay.

0:33:41 Thomas: Yeah it's typical damage control with parents. You got to let them know a step at a time kind of what's going on. You can't just give it to them all at once. I get it. Okay, so

0:33:49 Sarah: Yeah yeah and it wasn't uh something that they were happy about. It's still not something they're particularly happy about um um, they're much less devout now though.

0:33:57 Thomas: They're still devout or more or less devout Muslims and not. Okay. Okay.

0:34:03 Sarah: They're much more devout about now, but they, they still, well, my mom at least still believes. And I think the whole, it's, it's interesting because we're sort of, like I said, the first generation immigrants that are coming over and then you come over and you have certain beliefs and then your children grow up and come into their own. And so I think I see a lot of this in other families as well, where people just sort of either step out of religion or they decided to stay in and be more traditional, but it goes differently for each family. And the process itself is very interesting, but most families transform more than they thought they would. You know, they give up more than they think they would give up. You know, a lot of immigrants come into it thinking they're going to have the best of both worlds, they're gonna have the perfect Muslim children, and they're also going to have, you know, all the bounties of the Western world.

0:34:51 Sarah: But really, it usually means you have to to give up something. So I think that happens more often than not.

0:34:57 Thomas: Yeah. So let's fast forward then. But just let it suffice to say it wasn't like you weren't disowned or anything, but your parents weren't happy, but more or less you survived. The family survived. Well, that's good.

0:35:11 Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, we're fine.

0:35:14 Thomas: That's good, I'm glad to hear it, because that's not always the case. But

0:35:17 Sarah: That's not always the case. And it's not, again, I say my cases, my experiences are different. My family is different. And I haven't seen that being replicated in a lot of the ex-Muslims that I talk to. A lot of them are more, they're more concerned about what their family will say. They're more more concerned about the way their family might treat them. I was not subject to any physical abuse, but I know that that's common. I know threats are common. And I know, you know, people saying that we're never going to speak to you again, all of that is very common.

0:35:17 Thomas: Yeah, sure. Yeah, so

0:35:48 Sarah: That didn't happen to me. But that's not, I don't, I think, you from what I know from the ex-Muslims that I speak to, I dunno how common that is, but it may also be the case that people like me, you know, we just, we'll just leave and we don't ever have any problems. So we just disappear and, you know, live on our lives, but I, I don't think that that's the case. So,

0:36:08 Thomas: At what point then did you go on to start or co-found, I guess, ex-Muslims of North America.

0:36:16 Sarah: I, I, um, my first ex-Muslim, after many, many years of being an atheist, I met, I met an ex-Muslim, you know, in the wild. Uh, and uh, I, I didn't, you know, at first I didn't, I didn't believe him. I didn't say, I didn't think that that that he was who he said he was. That's how shocking I found it, because for me it was, once I decided that I was an atheist, I had to, it was a two-way process where people cut me off and then I cut people off myself because I didn't want, I knew that they would be unhappy with who I was and what I thought. So there was a distance for me and my Muslim community, both distance I I created myself and, and them, some of them pushing me away. So I, I, I had lost touch with people from my background altogether because I just didn't want to be judged.

0:36:20 Thomas: Oh.

0:37:10 Sarah: I didn't wanna be, you know, I didn't want to, I didn't want to face that at all. And I sort of instinctively knew it would come. So there was no point in hiding who I was. I didn't want to hide who I wasn't anymore. So I didn't want be among Muslims and I have to pretend to be Muslims, a Muslim myself. So I, you know, lost touch with that community, with with people from Muslim background all together, you know, a lot of Pakistanis, I just didn't, I, I lost touch with them, I lost ties with them. And then to be sort of reconnected and to meet somebody from my background who was, who also left religion, who also was, you know, liberal like me and had the same ideas about the harms that religion inflicts on people, that was so, so it was so refreshing and it was very validating because you really do think of yourself as crazy a little bit.

0:37:57 Sarah: And sometimes you feel embarrassed or ashamed for the difficulties that you put your family through because you think, you know, maybe I'm just being very extreme. Nobody else does this. So maybe what I'm asking out of my family, you have this respect for my life, you know, I'm not asking too much of them and I'm being unfair to them. And then when you meet somebody else and that sort of validates that you have a right to to be who you are. You have a right to live life according to your own conscience and to your own values. And you have a Right to be respected and loved anyway. So it was validating in that sense. And so we talked a little bit about, you know, this experience. And, you know, he said that, you know, maybe there's more like us, maybe, maybe we can find people.

0:38:48 Sarah: And meetings, and they started to grow. And then we started to find that there were people, and this other person, by the way, is Muhammad Sayyid. He is the president now of Ex-Muslims in North America, uh, in any case. He, he, he started finding tons of people, and there would be people that would come from, you know, eight hours away. They would drive to our meets, uh, just to, you know, they would ride eight hours one way, stay the night just for like a two-hour meet, and then drive back. I mean, people were coming from far away just to spend a little bit of time with people who felt the way they did and just to feel the sense of like we belong, you know, and I'm understood and don't really have to explain all these things that I do with everybody else.

0:38:48 Thomas: Oh, wow.

0:39:33 Sarah: So, when, you know, we saw that, when we saw that people were going so far out of the way, this was such a beneficial thing, we thought maybe it'd be helpful to foster these types of local communities all across, you know, the United States and even parts of Canada.

0:39:48 Sarah: And the goal of that was just that you would have somebody there, you know, in person, real life people. And we had learned a lot about security and privacy and all these things as we were bringing, bringing in people. Um, and we thought that we could teach other people, um, what we do, and we could, you know, bring them in into this organization and they would, they would have access to the local groups and they could come and they could join the meets and they could feel safe and secure and accepted. Um, so that's what started X Muslims of North America. So I think like about a year later we started the organization. We filed for 501c3, and here we are. We've grown. I think we're in like eight, 15, 18 cities. I'm not sure. But we're, in we're many, many different cities across the United States and Canada, which is actually it's surprising considering how dangerous it can be to to to join something like this. A lot of people are nervous even when they come. They're like, what are you like?

0:40:44 Sarah: What if this is a trap? So a lot of people are very, very nervous. And they're also nervous to come because these are physical meets. So people are are nervous when they come and they join because they're worried. What if there's someone here? What if they find out? You can get hurt.

But despite all that, a lot of people have been wanting to be a part of this, which is just, it's shocking to me that there are so many people that are excited about it, and many of them in much more dire situations than me.

The biggest thing that you have to fear often is your own local community and your own family, um, so if you're not the way I am, you might have more to fear, and many people do have a lot to fear, they have a lot to feel from, you know, their own fathers, but they do it anyway, they come anyway, which makes me think that there's a real need for this, that people are going you know, out of their way and, and risking a lot to just have a little bit of peace with some people who understand.

0:40:38 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. Right, and the more you can normalize it, you know, the more it'll help everybody. So yeah, that's really cool. I love that story. Do you, are you still active in, you know, in the meetings and all that kind of thing? Are you still meeting with people all the time?

0:41:54 Sarah: Yeah, I try to come as, you know, as often as I can. I'm not, you Know, it's one of those things that, know, running this organization, that's the thing that sort of gives me the most happiness. You know, that is what makes me, you know, meeting people and really talking to them and sharing their stories. And that is the most gratifying aspect of activism. Activism, so If there's one thing that I would continue doing, even if I, you know, stopped, if I stepped down from a leadership position, I would still, you know, attend those and be a part of that.

0:42:00 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Yeah. What?

0:42:23 Thomas: Let's talk a bit about that talk you gave at the uh the humanist conference, because again, I I is that fair to say that's really what puts you on the map in terms of the atheist community? Because that's certainly when I started seeing you everywhere.

0:42:36 Sarah: I don't quite know, but I think it is. I mean, it's definitely when I, I think what happened is this, it just like went viral a little bit and I, um, I, I think so, a lot of people, a lot of people happen to hear it and, um, it really resonated with a lot, lot of people, which I was surprised by, you know, because I, I went in thinking, oh my god, I'm gonna get so much, like, I'm just gonna get shit for this, I don't know if I'm allowed to curse on your podcast.

0:42:38 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Yeah.

0:42:59 Sarah: But I I just thought that, you know, I, I just thought that it wasn't going to be well received. Um, but I mean, there were people who still either were not happy with what I had to say, but more than that, I got so many who said, thank you for saying what I want to say, but I, I feel like I can't, you know, I feel like I'm going to be labeled as a racist or

0:42:59 Thomas: That's fine. That's right, yeah.

0:43:19 Thomas: Well. Yeah, it pretty much comes down along those lines, right? I mean, I think from my perspective, when I saw that it went viral, I think it's because there was a big demand for someone to say those things, particularly for an ex-Muslim to say them, because then it's like the classic, this is one use where I think the regressive, the term regressive left really does apply because, and this is something I'd love to hear you talk about more, because I think that was a lot of the crux of that talk you gave was you're not getting support from liberals, right? Is that fair to say?

0:43:55 Sarah: It's not just, I'm not getting support. Sometimes I'm actually being actively, uh, like hindered by, I mean, it's, it're an active part in opposing me sometimes. So that's what I thought was shocking and really very, very disheartening, more than anything that that I've gone through as I've been an activist. It's been a couple of years now, but it's been the reaction of the left that's been most disheartening. It's their lack of support, but also active denunciation that sometimes comes from leftists aimed at people like me or people that have messages like me. That's been the most discouraging aspect.

0:44:01 Thomas: Right, yeah, yeah.

0:44:41 Thomas: Say, I know it's been been a few years, like you said, but what's the, can you remember the first time that you thought that, that you realized like, whoa, you know, someone who I thought was going to be on my side, a liberal, someone whom I thought I could count on, you you know, or, or a reaction online or whatever it was. What was the, what was, when, when did you realize that?

0:44:59 Sarah: There's definitely been times where that stuck out in my mind, but it was sort of a gradual understanding, um, and it was me becoming more involved in the secular community altogether, um, just atheism overall, um, more than anybody else. Atheists tend to support people like me more than, you know, you could say the right wing technically, technically supports us, but not really, though, because we're atheists, right?

0:45:04 Thomas: Sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of a weird alliance, huh?

0:45:28 Sarah: Um. So. I. Don't even know if, I don't think it's an alliance. I don't think it's a true alliance. It's just a, for the, for temporarily we'll, we'll side with you, we'll support you, we'll champion you, um, but they don't really champion what we stand for, the values that we stand for, which are liberal values, um, so within the atheist community, I think that's the most that we ever get support. You know, the, the only group that I would say that I get, um, that I can expect a little bit of support, but even there, even in the atheist community, in the secular community, in the humanist community, there's been people that have thought that we were Islamophobic, uh, there's been people that have, um, many people that have asked us to change our name. They said, don't, why do you refer to yourself as ex-Muslim? It's really antagonistic.

0:45:31 Thomas: Right, right, right.

0:46:15 Thomas: Yeah, well, and that's ridiculous. Like, I think I've, I've heard some other examples, and please feel free to, if any, come to mind, but demands like that, where it's like, well hold on, you know. That's, that's just me describing myself. Like, that's not antagonistic. You know, it's, it's, it sort of shows, like, gosh, what must the mindset be if someone thinks that's like offensive, merely describing yourself as an ex-Muslim.

0:46:42 Sarah: Right. And so it's, it just goes and most, you many people want to talk about, with me, they want to talk about Islamophobia, more than they want to talk about persecution of apostates. And it seems like a more pressing concern to them, which is an interesting thing to bring to sum up someone like me. But that is what they that is is what they want to talk about. That is what's on their mind. And even though I'll talk about the persecution of atheists, that's my issue. That's how they associate me.

0:46:49 Thomas: Interesting. Yeah. So.

0:47:10 Thomas: It's that, it's that undue focus that I think, maybe that's what you're reacting to, is like regressive. People want to focus more on so-called Islamophobia than the treatment of atheists in Islam or in Islamic countries.

0:47:28 Sarah: Well, the whole term, I mean, the term is bullshit. And I would prefer that we never use it at all. So anytime anyone says, oh, Islamophobia, I'll say, I'm not going to have this conversation. Because there isn't, as far as I'm concerned, it's a very damaging term to use. It's a term that's just cluttering up our dialogue. There's, it is, it isn't Islamophobia that we're worried about, it's anti-Muslim bigotry, um, Islamophobia.

0:47:47 Thomas: Really? Okay. So you wouldn't even describe Trump or somebody like that as Islamophobic? Somebody who wants to ban Muslims? You would rather say they're bigoted against Muslims? Okay.

0:47:56 Sarah: Yes. Yes. Because.

0:48:08 Thomas: Do you want to dig into that a little bit?

0:48:08 Sarah: Islamaphobia. Isn't, I mean, what Islamophobia does, uh, purposefully, uh, groups like, I mean, there's certain groups that that do it purposefully and some that just do it without thinking, um, it conflates criticism of Islam and and bigotry against Muslims as a people, you know, and that's a very, very, very dangerous conflation. It's something that will harm Muslims more than anybody else in the long run and something that hinders progress because you really can't, you can't criticize a religion without coming across like a bigot or without some people assuming that this also means that you must want to do things like deport all Muslims. Muslims.

0:48:48 Thomas: Interesting. So is it that it's conflict? Because like, you know, my take, and I'm happy to be corrected on this, but my take was kind of that Islamophobia, I don't know, when people were saying like, by definition, it can't exist because there's reasons to be afraid of Islam. I think that was what Hitchens tended to say. I wasn't sure if that was accurate because I can picture Republicans and people like that who are just afraid of anyone who looks remotely Islamic or anyone Sikhs, who they think are Muslims. So my take was that, yeah, that is a real thing to be an Islamophobe, but people are using it incorrectly. They're saying anyone who criticizes Islam is Islamophobic.

0:49:33 Sarah: Well, I I think the people that you're referring to who are afraid of Muslims, they are anti-Muslim bigots.

0:49:40 Thomas: Okay. Okay. So, that's just a more useful term.

0:49:43 Sarah: I'm not saying that that hate doesn't exist, that that fear of Muslims that is perhaps irrational doesn't exists. It does exist, and then it would more more properly be called anti-Muslim bigotry. But it's not, could you imagine applying this to anything else? I mean, when we say anti-Semitism, we say, that's what it is. It's anti-Semitism. You are bigoted against Jews. You don't say, you know, I don't know, judophobia or, you don't tie You don't tie that in. You say that could also say, you know, imagine that to be in any ideology, capitalism, you know, capitalism phobia or communist, you really couldn't.

0:49:55 Thomas: Okay. Right, right, right. Yeah. Sure. Okay, oh, I don't know. I think I know a few of those.

0:50:28 Sarah: Well, you know, but it's a strange thing to say, because ideologies are different. We treat ideologies as different. And we treat hatred of ideologies, as different and perhaps less damaging, or more legitimate than hatred of people. And we should.

0:50:30 Thomas: Okay, yeah, I could take that on. So it's in order to prevent this confusion between criticizing people and criticizing ideas, it's better if we say anti-Muslim bigotry rather than Islamophobia.

0:50:59 Sarah: Well, what, what, what also happens is once, once it becomes clear, and I think it's already becoming clear that there are parts of Islam that are just anti-humanist in various ways. Once that becomes clear, people are going to start using that as, because they conflate, again, the people with the ideology, they're going to think, okay, this criticism, this is legitimate, which makes it legitimate for me to attack them as a person, which is also why we want to separate those two ideas. We want to separate them altogether because we don't want to allow criticism of Islam to be used as a reason to be bigoted against Muslims.

0:51:38 Thomas: Gotcha. Okay. So I think one thing that your speech maybe, the Humanist Conference speech, one reason it might have gone viral, apart from many, it was a great talk. I loved it. I watched it at the time. But one reason that might have particularly struck a chord with people was they were, I think a lot lot of people are looking to be able to say like, no, I am kind of afraid of Islam. Like I am kind of of elements of this religion and I don't want to be called a bigot. Is that safe to say? Do you think that's accurate?

0:52:11 Sarah: Yeah, I think that's fair. And I think it's to say that given our world today that it isn't rational to be a little bit afraid. Or perhaps it is irrational, but it is human. It is understandable, even if it isn't rational. So I think that demonizing people who may look at the world around them, and then find cause to be afraid, again, rational or irrational, but find cause be afraid. I think demonizing them is, it's a little harsh, and it's an unfair. Well,

0:52:46 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. So what, what would you say when someone, I think this is maybe something Reza Aslan would say, or that, not, it doesn't have to be him in particular, but when someone maybe comes at you with, well, look at Christianity, look what's in the Bible, like it's not, you know, what, what do you say to those kind of arguments, like equivocating between religions. Yeah.

0:53:07 Sarah: I have no problem with discussing the harms that have from other religions. I think it's a worthwhile conversation when it is relevant. Event. But in today's world, I think it is just dishonest to deny that Islam plays a bigger role in the lives of Muslims. It influences Muslims more than perhaps Christianity does. Definitely in terms of lawmaking, Islam has a much more, don't know exactly what to say, but I guess Yes, influence is a good word, but sometimes, you know, it's almost some some Muslim states, they they resemble theocracies. Islam has an influence that, you Know, Christianity just doesn't anymore.

So let's talk about it when it's relevant. So I'm happy to talk about Christianity and the Bible when it comes to, you know, somebody torching an abortion clinic. You know, let's let's talked about that. That's relevant then. But in today's world, in the political atmosphere we're looking at right now, in what Majid Nawaz calls, you know, the global jihadist insurgency, you know, that's relevant to today's politics. That's relevant for what we're facing globally, which is why we really do have to look at Islam in particular. It's also wrong to say that, you, know, people say all religions are good or they'll say all religions are bad,

0:53:50 Thomas: Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

0:54:31 Sarah: You know, and I think both of those statements are, they're, they're incorrect.

0:54:31 Thomas: Well, Even, Actually. Even worse, you know, I think, is even worse. Let me know if you agree, is Reza's stance is All religions are like essentially nothing. Like, he thinks that they're like, oh, there's no, it's just people bring whatever they want. It's a blank. Thanks. And that to me seems absurd. I mean, yeah, that's

0:54:34 Sarah: Yeah. Of course. It's not true, of course, of course, I mean, so

0:54:51 Thomas: Even worse. I would rather someone say they're all bad or all good. It almost makes more sense.

0:54:55 Sarah: I can, what I can bring in, I mean, it's, that's one of those really obvious things that you should be able to dismiss without you know, without any evidence, because really it's presented without any guidance, but

0:55:00 Thomas: Well, you'd hope, but man, there's like so many people who think that, but yeah, anyway.

0:55:06 Sarah: I think people just like, like the way that that sounds, you know, and, and a lot of Western Christians, you know, it's, it really is just a label for them. And even a lot of Muslims that would be apologists the way Reza is an apologist. I mean, he is a, he, he occupies in a very small percentage of Muslims, you know, who he, I think he was a Christian for a while and then he, you know, went back. I'm not sure exactly, but he, his, his liberal, his educated, he's, he doesn't represent the average Muslim at all, you know, at all at all.

0:55:08 Thomas: Yeah. It's like comforting. Yeah, yeah.

0:55:35 Thomas: To me, he's almost like a superhero for liberals. He's like, oh, look, this is a Muslim. He thinks everyone's equal and he thinks like the religion doesn't really matter, but he's still proud of it. You know, like it's like, it's Like, yeah, yeah.

0:55:41 Sarah: Right. Yeah. That's who they want Muslims to be, I think.

0:55:52 Thomas: They, they want every Muslim to be him. I really think that's it. And he has this rockstar appeal because of that. Yeah.

0:55:55 Sarah: And not only is he not the average Muslim, he's not even the average, more progressive Muslim. He doesn't even resemble them. I think he's very he's just so outside of that world. You know, I don't think he resembles them. I don't think that he has much credibility within real believers. But, hey, I know. What do I know? But what

0:56:08 Thomas: Oh, Well, what do you know? Well, you run an organization of ex-Muslims.

0:56:23 Sarah: I do know, what I know is that when I speak to ex-Muslims, I'm one of the few people, I would say it's me and probably Mohammed Saeed, who know more ex-muslims than probably anybody who have like, like, have real relationships. With actual ex-Muslims. And from what I know, people change when they leave religion. When they decide to leave the religion, they start questioning, hey, why do I have these feelings towards homosexuals? Why do I shame women who like to experiment with their sexuality?

0:56:24 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:57:02 Sarah: They reevaluate those thoughts, and they change those thoughts. And if it was the case that religion had nothing to do with it, and it really doesn't influence your belief, people wouldn't change their beliefs about other things once they have left a religion, and it happens with ex-Muslims, it happened with me, um, very, very rare is an ex-Muslim who was already super humanist and super liberal and left the religion, nothing changed. I've actually never heard of such, I've never encountered such a person, uh, most of them, they, something changes, you know, even something small, but something, something shifts, they decide to reevaluate something that they perhaps hadn't thought of it before. I, you know, I know some people who, who are vegetarians once they leave, once they, live Islam, whereas before, it's, you know, animals are created for you and um, you know well

0:57:27 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:57:45 Thomas: Well, do they start drinking more when they leave, so then

0:57:49 Sarah: Some do, some don't, uh, usually they, you know, they don't drink until they, until they've left, um, but yeah, it, that's that's part of it, but I would say yeah but I would say, that's something, I mean, some Muslims drink, you know, some liberal, progressive Muslim drink, you know, they know it's bad, but they do it anyway, you know, so some people do that.

0:57:58 Thomas: Overall the curve would be that they would Yeah. Oh, Okay. Where Does that come from, in Islam, sorry, again for the ignorant question, is there some sort of command that thou shalt not drink or something?

0:58:19 Sarah: I'm Not sure about this. So the actual, the context of the story, from what I understand, it wasn't, it wasn't always banned. And then somewhere in between, of, you know, the revelation of Islam. It's, it, Muhammad said that, you don't know more of this, and from, somebody told me a story, and I don't want to go into details because I'm, I'm not sure about this, but he said that one, you know, companion of the prophet, you know, misbehaved a little bit too much, uh, when, when drunk, you know, he, like, killed too many camels or of somebody else or got into a fight or something like that. And somebody told me that that was the background of that, but I'm not, well, yeah, don't, don't quote me about that, but I, I admit it would, oh,

0:58:50 Thomas: That sounds reasonable to me, who knows but that sounds like something that would be in the Quran Sure. Sure. Well, but that's interesting in and of itself though, that this was a custom, like, I assume, were you brought up, not, you know, like thinking alcohol was bad, or is that not part of your upbringing?

0:59:14 Sarah: I, it's, um, banned in Pakistan of, it's well

0:59:17 Thomas: Right. Right, so it's interesting already even if that you don't know the origin really, even though you were under this rule, you know, so that's an interesting datum

0:59:27 Sarah: It's just one of those things, I mean, think about there's so many things you don't know the origins of other than God said no, you know, yeah you don't know exactly why, or you're told a reason, so, with in Islam, it's about, um, different states of minds, you don't want to, which, which I actually, which actually makes sense to me, like, you don't want to put yourself in, um, a situation where you're not in your right state of mind, you want to, you want, want to be in a natural state of mind.

0:59:28 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

0:59:54 Thomas: Unless it's every single night after work. Yeah, right.

0:59:58 Sarah: Well, you know, so things that influence your mindset, like drugs and alcohol are forbidden, which, which makes sense. I think, I actually think that's one of those things that makes sense to me. There's quite a bit of Islam that makes sens, quote, unquote, you now, it, the reasoning sort of seems to check out. Maybe I don't buy it quite, but it's more reasonable than some of the other aspects, which, jerk, you know, the flying horse thing, and there's some stuff that's total nonsense and other stuff that's it makes

1:00:23 Thomas: Do you? Yeah. So are you saying make sense in the, in the sense that it's, it's good for you or like it's it goes along with what you should be doing anyway? Is that what you mean when you say?

1:00:33 Sarah: Sense if you're a devout person, that you would, you know, alcohol does make you behave differently and may make you into a less devout person when I was believing you know, so when I, when I believed, that's why I thought I wouldn't drink, and that's what I was sort of taught, and it made sense to me, and it still sort of makes sense to be right

1:00:40 Thomas: Oh, okay. Okay. I see. So you're okay. So you're saying, I was just trying to clarify if you meant like, like, oh, it's something you would still believe in, or it's like, it makes sense as in you understand why Muslims follow it. Okay. The second thing.

1:01:02 Sarah: And there is, it's not, it's not as if, so people, you know, talk to me about this all the time, where it's like, the whole of the religion is garbage, I had an argument, somebody, they said, you're an apologist for Islam, if you think, do you think that anything in Islam has any verse, has anything of value, if you do that you're an apologists and I said yeah, it was, uh, but I get people like this, I mean, nuts online, you know they say all sorts of things you'll get, you always get somebody, and I thought you know there's plenty that I think has value, that I think is interesting.

Some of it is plagiarized from various schools of thought, some of it from Christianity or Judaism, but also other things, you know, Arabic culture or whatever. And there are some things, yeah, that make sense. Or they're not so bad, or you can understand where they're coming from. And even some things that are just genuinely positive. I think that, for example, I would say, wanting to be empathetic towards the poor. That's something that was in the, that I was taught as a Muslim that I think has, you can, you can legitimately say as a part of Islam. Um, and it's something, you know, has value.

1:01:19 Thomas: Really? That's pretty absolutist. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, yeah, sure.

1:02:14 Sarah: It's not what I wouldn't say that if you weren't a Muslim, you'd, you have no way of coming up with this, which is what other Muslims tell me that, You know, they say, if, if you weren't a Muslim, how would you know that, you know, it's not okay to kill your dad? I'm like, well, you know, I don't, I feel like I don'T need religion to tell me that.

1:02:19 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. No, I understand.

1:02:30 Thomas: Yeah. Hopefully.

1:02:30 Sarah: But so it's one of those things. But you

1:02:33 Thomas: Yeah! Jesus tried that whole giving to the poor thing and it didn't really It didn't really stick for Christians in this country, but hopefully Muhammad had a, yeah.

1:02:41 Sarah: Do what you do with Muhammad does, you say it's mandated.

1:02:44 Thomas: Ah, he should have done that. No, he, well, Jesus's problem was he thought like the world was going to end immediately. So he's like, yeah, just give up your stuff. Who cares? The world's going to End like right now. And then later on, maybe that's why Christians today don't really pay attention to it.

1:03:18 Thomas: All right, that does it for part one with Sarah Haider. Part two, we get into some other areas, including some areas that you've heard me talk about before regarding like the regressive left and Rubin and all that kind of thing. And we get into a pretty healthy debate about it. So look forward to that. And again, if you want to go to patreon.com slash atheist, you can hear that already. All If you need more of me in your life, I did a guest appearance on the Gaytheist Manifesto, along with Eli Bosnick, actually. So I encourage you to check that out when it comes out and All right. Well, that's all I have to say. Thanks again for listening. And I'll see you on Thursday for part two with Sarah Haider