AS248: Cognitive Dissonance Or Bust

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 248, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Well, All right, well, I always have the explicit tag on the show just in case, but I don't use it a whole lot. That's not true today. As you guys know, Cognitive Dissonance is very much explicit and we have a hilarious time as usual with these guys. Getting off track, me having to try to get them back onto whatever the hell we were talking about, it's always fun. You guys know them and love them. So let's get right to it.

[0:01:06] Joining me right now is, well, you know me. Occasionally, I like to help out the little guys. So I've invited... Where are the little guys? Jeez. You're helping out huge human beings. I've invited some relatively unknown podcasters. I have fucking ice rings around me. Are you kidding me?

[0:01:24] Yeah, one of you is orbiting the other. It's like two super massive black holes.

0:01:31 Thomas: I love how you guys make all these jokes and then I meet you in person. You're two of the most fit, normal

[0:01:38] -looking, well-dressed, not schlubby guys. My favorite joke is people come up to me, especially at conferences, and they're like, you're supposed to be fat. And my answer is, you're supposed to be skeptical. Yeah, right? Nice. I like it. The only thing I will say in terms of all the things I've heard is I had several listeners say that you look like the opposite of your voices. Like Tom should be Cecil, Cecil should be Tom. So that's the only thing. We hear that all the time. Tom's voice should be taller. Yeah, right. My voice should have a fuller, more luxurious beard.

[0:02:12] Yeah, that's the only thing that's weird. Other than that, two great looking dudes who are not a pound overweight. One of us is single. One of us is single. Just throwing it out there. That's true. That's true. Is it Cecil?

[0:02:26] So, yeah. No, but anyway, I want to help out some... That's what I'm saying is if you've got low standards and live in the Chicagoland area. You wait, were we, were we, wait, were we doing a podcast? I forgot what we're doing. Are we, are we, are we doing, we're doing, we're doing fucking Tom's hookups on a podcast? I just, just swipe right motherfucker. Two of my favorite lizard people.

Oh, wait, wait, was this, we were going to record two versions, one for the lizard people that we all know. Hold on, let me just, let me just speak to lizard people really quickly. All right, they know what's going on now. Hey, you can't use that kind language. They know, they know, we're from Cognitive Dissonance. They understand. Yeah.

[0:03:07] We actually, there's a special lizard people feed that I have, an RSS feed. Oh, that's good, just for the lizard people. I don't want to swap those. It's not an RSS, it's an hiss. Oh, nice nicely, you see the hiss with the, forget, no it's good, I got it, forget, no forget it man, I quit, I'm done. It took me like three more seconds than you to process it, but I got it eventually. Okay, you should use monatomic gold and you'd be fine, be fine. So, all right, what the hell are we doing here? Uh, I, it's been a long, it's been a while, a little while, uh, since we had

[0:03:40] you on. I, you're my favorite guest to have on because we just bullshit, and see that's not true, because when Eli's on your show you're like, oh my God. You know, I would say Eli is my favorite guest to listen to, I would say. Yeah, and I think that's that's because you're forced to the entire time. Yeah. There's no talking. Gam is probably my favorite podcast because I find Eli hilarious. Hilarious However, Eli is very difficult to podcast with because he is non-stop It's good and bad. It's both the best thing in the world when you want someone to come be non-stop on an issue, but it's also, there's some editing that needs to happen.

[0:04:21] Like you got to edit an e, a breath into Eli. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, I had an actor like record, can Can you just record a breath for me? Yeah.

[0:04:33] Every one of Eli's breaths is a... I literally just split the clip. His soft little dew body struggling desperately to breathe.

[0:04:45] Hey, oh, wait. We're on a podcast. I keep forgetting. We're on a podcast, guys. Oh, this is the serious show? Yeah, this is a very serious show. The best part is that this is the most... The thing is, Thomas' listeners, listeners are probably the smartest podcast listeners out there, and I have turned us off, Tom, 20 minutes. I know they did. Yeah, I know they never even downloaded it. There is turned off as everyone I've ever dated, you know what I mean. But fortunately our lizard audience is kind of a captive audience, they have to listen because they're in captivity, they're in an aquarium, terrarium, like your podcast just playing on a heat rock somewhere. Yeah.

[0:05:25] So let's get to actual topics. Maybe I'll try, I'll try. Let's do this, let's see what's happened recently. I know some people gave you some shit for, for maybe talking shit on the libertarian candidate, uh, Gary Johnson, but yeah, yeah, we sure did, we got some shit. I wanted to talk about politics and, and specifically kind of what's going on in the movie. Good. Let's not talk about anything divisive. Let's talk about politics. No, let's talk about things divisive. Cue your hate mail, too. Hey, my show is for things that are divisive. That's what my show is for.

So I have a number of different topics I kind of jotted down. First one I would talk about is, are you finding that a lot of your listeners, I know you get a ton of feedback, ton of emails, what's your sense of how people feel about Bernie or bust, because if you're like my show it skews a little younger, young liberal people are pretty overall pro Bernie. And the big debate has been, do you vote your conscience or do you prevent a disaster from getting into the White House? What has been your guys' take on that and the sense you're getting from your listeners?

[0:06:33] Well, from our listener base, I have not found a lot of Bernie or Bust. I have found a lot of Bernie people, like Bernie, but Tom had mentioned one time as in passing kind of a joke and said nobody likes Hillary, and we got four or five messages from people saying, nope, sorry, I like Hillary, you're wrong, I like her.

And, you know, again, it was a joke, people missed it that it was a joke, Tom was not clearly saying that no one likes Hillary, I mean, or she wouldn't be beating the primary, maybe her daughter likes her, I don't know, you know, but but uh but so we have had a lot of of people say that. Now one of the things I noticed that on my Facebook feed, I have seen a few Bernie or bus type people.

[0:07:13] Um, and mostly what they're doing, and mostly what they're saying, at least as near as I can tell, uh, and is this a path you want me to go down right now? Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, okay. Um, what they're saying I think is we're sick of politics as usual in Washington, and so I prefer for Bernie. But when it comes down to it, what I'm looking for is something that is out of the political norm, that and the political status quo, which Hillary fits right into, at least in their mind. And so what they're willing to do is instead say, I

[0:07:53] will vote for someone else or like they'll probably vote for Gary Johnson, possibly, or they'll vote because he's a he's kind of an outsider. He's a governor, but he's kind of an outsider. He's an entrepreneur and then a governor. Or they'll vote for Trump, or they won't vote at all. I personally think not not voting at all. And I think Tom agrees with me that that's a silly decision. I think that's an absurd. That's an absurd decision.

But but these people right now, I think are they're just sick of the politics as usual. And I think they're trying to express that in the only way they can in kind of an impotent vote. And especially in Illinois, Tom and I recognize the impotency of our vote. I think in California, too,

[0:08:33] it's a little different for me because bottom line is no No matter who I vote for, even if I pretended that my vote mattered, which, you know, tragedy of the commons, it doesn't really matter, but I do get voting in principle. I am going to vote. I think it's important that we do that. But even with that, my state is going blue no matter what. Is that the same for you guys? Same as

[0:08:55] us. Yeah, same as us. Chicago is always blue. It's, you know, it colors the whole state because everything outside of the Chicago metropolitan area. Red as fuck. And even some of the districts inside the Chicago metropolitan area are red. It's just there's so many voters in Chicago that are blue. It just flips the whole state. Yeah, it's the same thing. San Francisco and L.A. are totally Democrat.

0:09:20 Thomas: But everything where I'm from, like the rural areas, they're very conservative, but it doesn't really matter because

[0:09:26] there's like three people out there. You know, we all say our vote doesn't matter. We all say our vote doesn't matter. But but but I I do take some minor issue with that, because our vote matters, it's just that everybody else, or enough people are voting like us, right? Yeah, that that we are just, all we're doing is voting within lockstep to the majority, yeah, and the majority is so overwhelming, but clearly, like if nobody voted, right, it would matter, right? So I actually don't think though that it could change. Here, here's uh here's what I was going to say.

Let me see what you think about this. I think that you disagree. Um, I was a, so starting off, I'll just come, come clean about where my leanings were. I wasn't a huge Hillary fan and I did, I did like that Bernie uh walked the walk. That's what I really liked, I honestly when I look at positions I actually don't agree with a lot of what he says, but I really liked that he was a dude who was worth like 30 grand, he has like a an old Toyota from the 90s that he's probably driving, he's got one suit, uh

[0:10:28] I just, I just like that he was, he's far less wealthy than your average person of that age should even be, like just like he's hamstrung himself. I know, no, you know, I want to run the economy, somebody who can't run his own personal finances. No, no, no, I've been bankrupt six times, America, six. He's living, no, it's not Trump, what am I kidding, yeah, no, no. But it's important that he had a message of get money out of politics, and he was living

[0:11:00] that life. Getting him into Washington would be getting money out of politics, it would be getting a dude worth like 400 grand or something, whatever his net worth was. His net worth is worth less than it should be if you just bought

[0:11:13] a house in your 30s. And, you know, like, I just had the house. Well, in California, where a house is a half a million dollars, maybe. Right, right. Oh, a half a million dollars. Are you kidding? That's a kind of a... My house is like a half a million dollars. That's a studio, right? If you're in the Silicon Valley, that doesn't... That wouldn't get you anything. It's like the national debt to own a house.

To get a house in Silicon Valley that's $400 ,000 or $500 ,000, it's like, oh, great, you get a chipmunk hole. Yeah, they just don't even have them. They're like, you can't... It's like trying to buy a car for 200, like a new car for 200 bucks. It's like, there is no - They give you a cardboard box and they tell you the nearest park is nearby. Just put your head in the box and

[0:11:54] fall asleep. Like, I have a half a million dollars. Oh, I'm so sorry you're homeless. Yeah. That's terrible. So my Point that I maybe someday will be getting to, we'll see, was just that I support Bernie, but I'm totally cool with Hillary, like if she's the nominee. Just anyone but Trump, for me, because he's not a serious candidate for president, which should, obviously, this has all been said, but the only point I was making about California and other states where it's a foregone conclusion, if people in California wanted to say, you know, let's make a statement with our vote and vote Gary Johnson or just write in or whatever, go third party, it's not going to harm the election too much. It's not going to make it so that Trump is going to be president. Whereas if you're in a swing state, seriously, just don't fucking vote Trump, like just vote Hillary. But I mean, when you're in a state that is like California, you

[0:12:46] know, I think that could affect your decision. That's all I was going to say. The other thing, too, is the people that are going to vote in fucking Alabama, let's say, your vote's already going to be red. You know what I mean? Like, no matter what you do in Texas, it's not like Texas is going to flip fucking blue. You know what I mean?

Like, Texas is going to be red, fucking, you know, there's a bunch of states and I don't know, I don't know which ones are which because I don't even pay attention to the red states, to be honest with you, but like there's a bunch of those states all over and those states are just gonna be red, there's nothing you can do about it. Here, I can help you, if you're gonna visualize the states, that where it was hard to get rid of slavery. Yeah, right, you

[0:13:26] can visualize the states you never want to go to, that's the, the states, right, if the teen pregnancy rate is astronomical, it's like, right, it's like, I was in Mississippi earlier this year. Oh, God, don't say that. And you just like, yeah, okay, if this place just fucking evaporated and was not part of the union, and we were 49 states, no one would care.

[0:13:45] You know, the Birdie or Bus thing pisses me off, though, but, but to get to your, to to address your point, I think you've got, really, like, you've got two options, right, because you're either in a foregone conclusion state, sure, right, and if I'm in a foregone conclusion state, either a definitively red or definitively blue state, you have an option to vote third party and feel like, okay, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I know that I can do it safely, right?

I can vote for that third party. I know that that vote for that third party is, is, you know, maybe it's just a scream into the void, but I can do it without really making any direct impact on the, on the outcome of the election. So there's, there's that. And then there's the swing

[0:14:25] states. If you're in a swing state and you're pro Bernie and you don't vote, and your state flips Trump, you fucked up. Yeah, you're done, fucked up, you're done, because if you're pro Bernie, there's no way that you're ambivalent. Like, I'm Brony, but maybe Trump, yeah, maybe, I don't understand, but I know that some people are like that, they're like, well, there are, your Trump of them, it's weird, it's anti-establishment, right, it's anti-establishment, yeah, the vote for, but that shit makes me nuts. Yeah, because the, yes, I, I get being anti-establishment, I get being, I understand the idea of just raising your middle finger to the whole fucked up system, I get that, but, but stop for just a second and stop being nine years old.

[0:15:05] Yeah, and think about the idea that Donald fucking celebrity apprentice host Trump could actually be the leader of the United States of America, all because you wanted to have a fucking temper tantrum. That's what that is, insane. It's, he's too, not, he's just not serious, he's not a serious candidate, it's not even an option, it shouldn't be, regardless of what Trump does, right, because if Trump gets in there, regardless of what Trump does as a president, um, I personally don't know that he would have a lot of power, because I think a lot of the Republicans would block him out, and the Democrats certainly would block him out, so I have a feeling like, like he wouldn't

[0:15:45] get a a lot done. He would be one of those presidents who just sits there and spins his wheels and waits for his time to get up. That's what I mean. I don't know. That's just speculation on my part. But it feels like the Republican Party, they're slowly starting to come around, but they feel like they're still sort of keeping him really far at arm's length. So I feel like he wouldn't get a lot done.

But regardless, you've got to recognize that there are going to be some justices. There's... there's clearly one that's going to be there because they're not going to confirm anybody before the next election. That's just not going to happen. They keep on throwing people up there, but I do not think that they're going to confirm anybody else before the next election. They're like, oh, we're riding on principle or whatever the fuck that means. Even though they already did that during the Reagan

[0:16:26] era, they already fucking approved somebody. Right. But instead, they're like, well, we're running on tradition, so we're not going to approve this current person who's gone, that fucking is taking over for corpsey Scalia. Galia, so they have to, and, and really, to be honest, there could be fucking three more corpses on the fucking Supreme Court real fast because they're all like a trillion years old, they're like fucking, there's a stegosaurus on there, so the fact is, is that, is that if you vote for Trump because you're mad, recognize that you're putting in Republicans, not just Republicans, conservatives, onto that court, and that court changes a lot of shit that can happen in the United

[0:17:06] States. And look at the kind of progress we've had, even when we were losing, the Democrats right now are losing that court four to five. Now it's four, four. So it's like an even game. Well, it's at this point where I want to try to acknowledge that, you know, you guys, as well as my show, I think probably has a certain

[0:17:26] percentage of conservative atheist listeners. They're out there. They're definitely a minority. I don't even understand the idea of that. What did you say? I don't even understand the idea of a conservative atheist. Well, I think there can be fiscally conservative people. You know, I don't think we have a whole lot of, like, socially conservative atheists. Well, I guess that's more what I mean. I think atheists fall into—mostly the majority fall into two camps, which is, you know, Democrats slash, you know, whatever, liberals, right, progressives, and then libertarians. Those are the fiscally conservative, socially liberal people that are on the other side.

And all I wanted to say about that is often we do talk as though conservative atheists don't exist, and it's because they are a minority, but just to acknowledge that, I'll say it, I've said it a million times, and I think you guys might agree. If there were a serious Republican candidate, if there were a serious, rather conservative candidate, I would give that consideration, especially compared to Hillary, who was pretty hawkish, like pro-Iraq war, pro-Latina, you know, if there was a real candidate who wasn't talking about transgender bathrooms and trying to repeal gay marriage and all that and just said, hey, let's pay a little less in taxes and

0:18:43 Thomas: Stuff like that, you know, like it would be a consideration.

[0:18:46] I'm not, you know, I don't know who I'd vote for, but it would at least be a serious issue. Yeah, I think the problem is that we're talking about the difference between the current Christian conservatives, which say they're small government and are not small government, and then a real true conservative who is small government, but those are the type of people who don't get get elected. We haven't had a true conservative in this country for many, many, many years. I don't even know which one.

What conservative have we had that's been small government? Show me one that wants to shrink the defense budget. I want to say that Reagan started out that way and then quickly wasn't able to. I mean, but we're going back to when I was a child. I'm a 38

[0:19:27] -year -old man. In order to even have a conversation like that, it's like, oh, remember when you were, you know, what, six, eight? I mean, it's ridiculous. The idea that we're like, Like, oh, let's go back 20, 25 years, 30 years in order to even have a conversation about, you know, a candidate on that side of the aisle that you could actually look at. And I would still I'm not I'm not convinced Reagan's even that guy.

But, you know, like you mentioned, like Thomas, you know, Hillary is hawkish. I agree. That's a that's that's a big problem for me. The fact that she's such a fucking hawk is a big problem for me. But she's not Donald Trump. Exactly. You know, she's an actual living, breathing human being. She's not just this fucking walking orange toupee farce of a human being.

[0:20:07] That guy looks like a Louis Vuitton bag. He's not that attractive. You, it's, it's amazing that people could consider voting for someone who just is a contradiction. Do they not get the trick yet? It's so simple. I mean, Trump just says whatever the fuck he wants. And then when people call him on it, like they'll show him his words to his face. He just says,

[0:20:28] Nah, I didn't say that. But that's what they love about, I, I know, that's the thing that appeals, what it is? You don't get that. That doesn't equal anything. You can't You can't vote for someone who's been on both sides of every issue and think, oh, this guy gets me

[0:20:44] That's my boy. Yeah. That's awesome. But, you know, like, let me circle back around to Bernie or Bust, because, you know, my understanding of Bernie or Bust and that concept is that if Bernie does not get the nod, if Bernie does not win the primary and become the candidate for the title, which seems – Which he virtually is not going to. It's not going to happen, right? Like, I mean, it's just not going to happen. Unless fucking moondust rains down upon him.

Unless he challenges Hillary to Thunderdome. Unless we finally... And I actually think she'd kick his ass. Unless we finally get to the bottom of Benghazi. Look, she is Master Blaster. That's all I'm saying. But, you know, so Bernie's not going to win. That's fine. I still think he should stay in it. I think he's having a meaningful

[0:21:25] impact on the direction of the... Yeah, he's having a meaningful end -of -life experience.

[0:21:32] So, okay, fine. You want to vote for Bernie. Man, I want to vote for Bernie, too. Here we go, man. That's my fucking that that little Jew is my boy. Like, I like him. Yeah, I love that guy. All right. But he's not gonna win. No, right, he's not gonna win. And then my options are going to be Hillary or Trump, or I stay home. If you stay home, Republicans have an advantage. There is a mathematical advantage, because the people that do not stay home are old white men. Those are the guys that don't stay home. I will say this, though, Tom. You We're talking about the young vote, and the young vote very often is very flaky and don't vote.

[0:22:12] So are we really depending on the young vote to even come out? But the young vote turned out in the last two elections in big numbers. They turned out for Obama. They helped to move that election a little bit. And they were a meaningful demographic in the last two elections. And so if we take that away, you know, right now that the Democrats need, they start off with a huge numerical advantage.

If on the electoral map, if every blue state stays blue and every red state stays red, the Democrats have a major advantage on the electoral map. But that's based on the last two elections where young people did come out and vote. And it's distressing that people would just be like, well, fuck it. I'm just going to throw I'm

[0:22:52] just not even going to vote at all. I get it. You don't like your options, but it's like saying, like, hey, man, you're stranded on a desert island, and your choices to eat tonight are fucking eggnog and lima beans. It's like, fucking, I don't like either one. Fucking, you need some calories. Choose. Make a choice. Yeah. You have a chance to make a choice. Especially with the Supreme Court. Right, that's the thing.

That's the one thing that I think everybody really needs to pay attention to, is because Ginsburg at this point is probably on life support. If she makes it through the end of the night, it's a fucking Christmas miracle. Yeah, and actually I just thought of this, that should appeal to the, uh, even even if we do have conservative

[0:23:32] listeners. I, I highly doubt they're socially conservative. Yeah And uh the justices, that's where that

[0:23:39] Social conservatism. Yes, exactly, I was gonna bring that up. Yeah, I was gonna bring that up, because the thing is, is, like, you know, you can be fiscally conservative, but that really has to do with what what Congress does with the budget and things like that, and taxation. There's a lot of those issues. I would say majority of the issues that the Supreme Court even handles are almost all social issues. They're all this, can people go pee where they want? I'm going to pee right now in my studio just to say, yes, people can pee where they want. You can pretty much pee wherever you want. I'll do what I want.

0:24:12 Thomas: So this is interesting. I'm wondering, so you guys supported Bernie. I haven't really gotten a chance. I don't think to have a good conversation about this, but it's funny. I was a Bernie supporter too, but he would say things that I'd be like, you know, I don'T actually agree with that, but I'm just on board with him in general. Like I said, one of those is free college. Where did you guys come down on that?

[0:24:33] I'm fucking super free college. Like, let's do it. Free college? Absolutely. Works, works great in big parts of Europe, I think. You know, yeah, we got to pay some more money in taxes, but a more educated populace is never going to be a bad thing.

Um, paying a little more in taxes to subsidize college across the board, um, so that my kid I don't have to then I can take all the money that I've put away for my kid to go to college, and I can fucking spend it on a boat or whatever I want to do. Right, because otherwise it's not you know, I mean, that's out of my pocket to the the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars for the two boys that I've got. Yeah, free college. And, and just generally speaking, a more educated populace

[0:25:14] is better for our economy. It's better for, uh, I mean, it's just better for the, for the country as a whole. I can't think of anything where you're like, man, I wish we were a little less educated on that subject, that would have really helped. I am falling down in the exact same place where Tom is, and I'm child free so I don't have any children, nor do I plan on ever having children.

But the fact is, is that somebody's going to have to change my diaper in the future, and hopefully we're a more prosperous nation where that isn't somebody from another country. I'm hoping that I'm hoping that I can be xenophobic in my old age. I was gonna say, yeah, that sounds like Trump support. Right, so you want to you want to have your diaper changed by somebody with a fucking misused master's degree in drama. That's exactly it. I

[0:25:54] want I want a philosophy major to change my diaper. That's what I'm looking for. Well, I'm glad you guys are both on the other side of it. Because I actually, I don't really support that idea for a couple reasons and feel free to argue back, but

[0:26:06] I would say I worry a lot about, okay, I don't know where you guys went to school. I can't remember. We probably talked about it when I was super drunk in New York, but I went to a private school. I paid way too much in tuition. I was left with a lot of debt. I worry about the government writing checks to colleges, uh, in the spirit of free college, and then universities exploiting that, sort of like, uh, insurance companies, like health care. Yeah, like health care, where the prices all of a sudden creep up, and the, the price increases are, are not exactly justified. And it becomes this sort of over-bloated thing where all the money

[0:26:48] is going into, uh, new buildings or whatever, because we already have the cost of higher education climbs at an alarmingly fast rate already. That's what I'm saying. What, what I don't understand, what, what the fact that the government was writing the check well, once the government's writing the check, check, there's not there's less uh uh bargaining power, I think, because if you're I mean, how easy is it to get the government's money? It's it's pretty easy, actually. I work I will say I work in budgets for the for the uh the state government. Uh The unions uh control everything. We pay them basically whatever they want uh because when

[0:27:25] you're negotiating with government, it's nobody cares about the government's money. That's I think it'll drive costs down. I think it'll drive educational costs down, because the government's not going to write a check for whatever you want. Like, what, they wouldn't do that. It's not how that works. They would write a check up to a certain dollar amount. I mean, anybody that would put a program like this together would say, okay, the, you know, the average cost for, let's say, university education in Illinois is X dollars, and so you as a student get a X dollars to use against your higher education.

But don't you remember when they tried to do that with health care and they tried to get everybody, all the offices to say, say, what is the price of, uh, what was it? Like a uh, spare hip, you know, know, a new hip. What was the price of it? Yeah. And they could not get any agreement. It would be so easy for universities to manipulate this to their advantage and say, no, yeah, it costs this now. This is how much it costs. And the other point I want to make, feel free to address more of that if you want, No,

[0:28:21] I want to talk about that. I want to talk about that. Okay, we can stop. Then go ahead. Let me just say that I work in higher ed. And one of the reasons why higher, higher ed expenses are going up and costs are going up every year, no matter what, is there has been massive cuts to grant programs throughout both the United States and state grant programs. So they've been cutting off this flow of money to the colleges throughout the years. And as they cut that off, tuition has to go up, because you can't do the same work with less money. You have have to pay the people, and cost of living just goes up, period. So it's not only cost of living expense,

[0:29:01] but it's also grant money expense. Well, if that grant money was government money that was coming in and they wouldn't have to raise the prices for that, then it would just equalize, and it would only be cost of living expenses. That's my suspicion. I mean, again, I work in higher ed. I'm not a budget guy in higher ed, but I know for sure that one of the major pushing points for the last several years have been people have been telling us to contact senators and people in office in Illinois to let them know we need these grants.

0:29:33 Thomas: I think maybe where I could be coming from too is I already think perhaps too many people are going to college for the

[0:29:39] wrong reasons.

0:29:40 Thomas: I am in favor just in abstract, yes, more education is better, but I worry about how many people are going and getting that English degree, leaving even with, you know, God knows what in debt, once there is no disincentive at all. Like, we oh yeah, just go, just you might as well go. It's free from the government. I can't imagine how much of a gigantic burden that's going

[0:30:05] to be. And they tried to - Burden on who? Wait, wait, wait, slow down, slow down. Burden on who? On the taxpayers, on the budget. I mean, I remember there was deep skepticism in the calculations of how Bernie was going to pay for all that. Oh, I'm sure. Oh, I'm sure there was. Yeah. It would have to raise taxes a lot. Yeah. Yeah, and I just think, let me offer what I think would be my solution, if you will, and see if you don't like this better, or maybe you will like it better. Are you running for president?

Yeah, I'm going to build a wall and I'm going to make universities pay for it. My solution would be just however much interest-free government education loan you need, you can get. So no one, is making... That's a good deal. That helps a ton. I mean, the interest on these loans is huge. That expense, however, is a lot to a person, but it's not a lot to the government. I mean, relative to, you know, if your, total tuition was $100 ,000, the difference between the government's going to pay $100 ,000 and the government is just going to lend you that money without interest, or rather subsidize lenders who do, in order for it to be interest free, that's way less of a tax burden, and it's still immensely helpful to anyone who wants to go to school.

But the student is still accountable to to make a kind of a wise decision with their education and not go get a interpretive dance degree when they, you know, or whatever it is. So that would be my solution. I do strongly believe that we should just, whatever interest-free student loans, and obviously they'd have to be appropriate and qualify and, and and all that. But whatever you need, you

[0:31:43] you get, that's a big boon for students and not as much of a tax burden. What do you think? I think it's a fine idea, but I don't know. I mean, I look at the free education model, and I think that that's a perfectly fine model, too.

[0:31:59] As a parent, the amount of money that I have to set aside between now and the next, you know, 12 years or so, in my nine years, when my, when my oldest goes away to college, the amount of money that I should set aside in order if I really want, if I want to pay all of that to get him an education, is, is a staggering sum of money. And I, you know, there are so many families that have bright and talented kids that even an interest-free loan might be terribly intimidating to them to take out. The concept of, you know, somebody who's coming from a family that makes $30,000, $40,000 a year, you know, taking out loans that

[0:32:39] are going to cost, you know, three, four, five years of somebody's salary, you know, that could intimidate and cause people to say, you know, I'm just going to go ahead and get a job out in the workforce and I'm not going to get that education. I do believe in the intrinsic and inherent value of an education. I think a more more populated workforce, or more educated populace, rather, and workforce is better for the entire country as a whole.

I think it would spur the economy forward in huge ways. I think, you know, the more people that go to school, the more innovation that's going to be done, the more advances that are going to be made. I think that all those things drive economies, all those things drive money into the system. You

[0:33:19] Know, this is, you know, the reality is that a bachelor's degree right now is the high school diploma of the 1960s, 70s and 80s, um, getting, getting people out and getting them educated. Yeah, are a few of them going to get stupid fucking degrees like English lit or philosophy, right, wasting their lives like I did, um, yeah, of course they will, um, but you know, they'll still be better served with that degree than, you know, working at Joe's Pizzeria and getting, I don't know, I don't You think you're being a Little negative on, on, uh, maybe people who just want to work a job and makes, you know, be

[0:33:58] A, be a plumber, be a But I'm talking about things in aggregate, I'm not talking about individual people. I'm talking about Well, sure, but there's a lot of those people, though. I I just think that if Well, okay.

0:34:10 Thomas: You talk about the, uh, the no-interest loans still being intimidating. I'm not sure why, because I - I mean, one of my government loans was, it's not no interest, of course, they still, but it was subsidized. So it's only like, I don't know, it was end up being two percent or something, uh, and, and it was like a 30 year repayment. It was virtually nothing a month forever with very little interest. And it's easy to do. It's - it's it - it helps a lot to

[0:34:35] Not have interest, but there's a level of financial sophistication that you come to this with that many, many families don't come to this way. Yeah, I came to it with a level of low financial sophistication, very low financial sophistication than I did. Oh, me too. I - I mean, I was, I didn't come from a - I, I mean, I disagree with you, Tom. I mean, I do, I really do disagree with you. Like, I think, I think that, you know - Wait, which Tom?

I'm talking - I'm talking to Tom, not Thomas. Like - Oh, okay, okay. I disagree with Tom because I - I really did. I came to this - I came to education from a, a very disadvantaged background, at least, I mean, you know, white poor, disadvantaged, not - I was certainly, wasn't like - I certainly wasn't urban been poor, I was, you know, I was, I was, uh, you know, a suburb

[0:35:15] Poor, but I was still poor. But I came to it with the - with the - no, I didn't know how to go to college when I went to college. And when I did go to college, um, everything was loans and I was just like, okay, well, you know, you got to get in, you got to figure out a way to get in and you just got to suck it up. But you were the exception.

Well, I mean, so what, so what, but what we're trying to do when you create a better society is you don't want to have to rely on people to be an exception. Well, I'm an exception to what, though? I'm still paying off that stuff just like anybody else would. You're the exception in that you, as somebody who came from that background, took a look at your situation and made a - And it weighed the consequences. That's what everybody does. I'm not sure that I agree with you. Yeah, I think that there's

[0:35:55] Too much hand-holding in the system that you're thinking about. I think that if people are going to want to better themselves and want to better their lives, they're going to need to make hard choices. And those hard choices sometimes mean that you're on the hook for a lot, lot of money for a long time. That's what buying a house is. That's what going to school is. That's what owning a car is.

Like all those things are, I'm going to pay money for a while and I'm going to have to do this. I'm going to have to be responsible to do it. And I think that, you know, there's a lot of handholding in the sense that I'm going to expect that other people aren't going to do it because they, they feel like they would be intimidated by the process. I really, I mean, I don't know that. But these are by and large, 18 year old kids. Like, these are by and large, young people who may not have anybody, like, you know, and

[0:36:35] I know you didn't either, but that's what I mean, is that you're the exception. I don't think we build rules based on exceptions. These are - these are by and large 17, 18, 19 year old kids who are making decisions oftentimes without anybody to help them make those decisions.

Well, to be fair, I mean, future of their life is going to look like, and if they - if they don't have, if they don't have real mentorship in that process, they could pass up an education for fear of getting into a debt situation that is intimidating, that might - that might - that might have a massive impact on their life and, and on creating, again, a better society when you have, you know, hundreds or millions of of people that are that are making those decisions. Well, I

[0:37:16] Think another thing that should be said is - part of our tax dollars do go toward, uh you know, a guidance counselor at every high school or guidance but

[0:37:24] I never saw my guidance counselor once, and I went to one of the best high schools in the state. I never one time ever went to a guidance counselor. And I, I, I was in all honors and AP classes. I never one time ever walked into a guidance counselor's office. Yeah.

0:37:36 Thomas: Maybe that's an interesting separate point. Maybe that needs to be, because I - I'm actually, I - I'm torn, because I didn't have any fucking clue what to do at age 17. Uh, but - but to me, that's also a reason that kind of cuts both ways, because if - if it's already an incredible tax burden now to imagine free college for all, imagine what it will be when now no one at the age of 17, 18 is disincentivized to go to college. I mean, I can't even imagine what kind of burden that would be for that giant influx of people. I think, well, another thing I would say is maybe we try to keep public universities low low to, I don't know, free might be too much still, but keep those very low tuition to the point where in retrospect, I wish I had just gone to a state university here in California. Tuition would have been about a fifth of

[0:38:32] what I paid, and it makes no difference. So I really, but that's why I just think that should be the way to go. I mean, it could be, once you take away the money as a negative incentive, I mean anything goes in terms of of how many people are going to go to you know, private schools and get whatever. It's just,

[0:38:51] that's scary. They wouldn't go to private schools. The private school doesn't get that much cheaper. Right? I mean, like, if, well, I think the people that would go to private schools would be the people who would be looking for low class sizes, and hands-on and hands-on interactive work with people in small classroom environments. So that would be the, that would be why you would want to go to a school that has more money. It would cost you more money to go to, but it would be - Well, hold on. Well, I guess we need to make sure to clarify it because I want to say that Hillary was suggesting maybe making the public universities free, but that Bernie's plan was just anyone who wants to go to school. Anywhere, we pretty much

[0:39:32] - Yeah, I know. We were just talking about, because you just brought up the public school being free. That's why we were talking about the discrepancy. Right. Yeah, I would assume that there would be a limit on the amount the government kicks in relative to the cost of a public university in your state. So they keep it limited to, I mean, if mine is $15,000 a year in California. Then that's what you get, right? Can we pull back just a little bit?

Can we pull back just a little bit to, instead of talking specifically about this type of spending, let's talk about their spending in general. Let's talk about Bernie's spending in general. I think that when Tom and I looked at the tax plans for all – and this was when four candidates were in the race. So you had

[0:40:12] the nearly human Ted Cruz was still in the race. Orange Trump was in the race. There was Hillary and Bernie. Hold on. I interrupt this program to say anyone who hasn't gone to Ted Cruz for human president, do so now. That is the best website anybody's ever created. You would have heard it on Cognitive Dissonance a few episodes ago. It's so funny. Stop the show if you haven't been to it. Go to Ted Cruz for Human President. It's amazing. And then sleep for what you would think is an appropriate amount of time. And then come back to our show. Okay, go ahead. But I always thought, Tom and I looked at these, and what it said was, with Trump,

[0:40:53] you're going to be getting a lot less in taxation. With Ted Cruz, you were going to be getting a little less with taxation. With Hillary, you were going to get a little more in taxation. And with Bernie, you were going to get a lot more in taxation. That's kind of how they ranged, right? I mean, I'm simplifying it in a gross sense, but what I'm saying is that on one end of the spectrum is Trump and on the other is Bernie.

And when you're talking about straight up taxes, Bernie was going to, he was going to, he's going to really run it to a lot of people and specifically people that are in the, right now, what we would consider middle class, the upper middle class was going to get hammered, hammered by Bernie.

[0:41:34] And so was the upper, upper class. I mean, he wasn't going to pull any punches, but he was going to hammer the upper middle class and the upper class in a huge way. Funny enough, Trump, when we looked at it, I don't think the upper middle class really benefited all that much. It was really just the really rich people that benefited a whole lot. But, you know, the idea here is that Bernie, if you're talking And Tom and I had talked about this on our show. If you're talking about strictly how much money is coming in on your paycheck every week, Bernie is technically not voting in my interest. But Tom and I both decided that with the benefits that would happen based on this

[0:42:14] sort of thing, and even not for me because Tom has kids, I don't have kids. So if he does, you know, if he got in and he was just like fucking waved his magic president wand and everybody got fucking free college tuition somehow, I wouldn't benefit from that directly. Directly I wouldn't benefit from that, but I recognize that that's a public good that would help a lot of people out, so I would be okay with it. Same thing with health care.

If there was some change to health care, single payer health care, I would, that would be a benefit for other people. It may not be a benefit for me because I have a great insurance plan. I don't pay a lot of money because it's spread over a huge group of people, so I don't really pay a lot. But that's okay. I'm willing to pay a little extra more to make sure someone else has a good

[0:42:54] life. And I think that, but that's one of the things that you got to think about as a person who's paying taxes. Are you willing to pay more based on whether or not other people are going to benefit from it, not just you?

0:43:30 Thomas: All right, that does it for part one with Cognitive Dissonance. Tune in for part 2 on Monday, or as usual, if you're on patreon.com/atheist, you get the episode right away. That's how I do it. That's I like to thank my wonderful patrons. You guys are the best. It's the least I can do. But if you can't pledge, that's okay. I understand. You'll get the content on Monday. If you can pledge, I'll encourage you, please write an iTunes review. 5-star review really helps. Helps. Follow me on Twitter at SpeakAtheism, stuff like that. Plenty of things you can do without, you know, contributing money that show your appreciation for a product that takes a lot of work.

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