AS247: Ableist Language with Ania Bula

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 247. I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Alright, here we are with part 2 with Ania Bula, and this is where things perhaps get a little more contentious. I'll see you afterward, I'm very curious to see what you think, but let's get to it.

0:01:00 Thomas: So, yeah, and it's, I mean, a lot of the tagline of your book was about this, you know, alternative medicine and all that. A lot of stuff we haven't gotten to yet. I think we're a little low on time, but I was wondering if you could maybe speak to that a little bit.

0:01:15 Ania: Absolutely, um, so whenever you're sick and in a more permanent way, there's this need, but by a lot of people, to sort of fix you because They think that there's, if, if you're still sick, that means that you're not doing enough. It's your fault that you are still sick, because if you just did enough, you'd get better. And there's this need for a lot of people to start their specific agendas on you as a cure for your condition. So I can't tell you, for example, the number of times that I've had somebody who is vegan come up to me and be like, "What's Crohn's disease?" And then after I explain this, it's like, "Oh, well, you know, going vegan would totally cure it."

0:01:52 Ania: You know, and I have nothing against people who want to to be vegans, I think, you know, if that's a choice that works for you, that's fantastic, but for me particularly, um, I can't digest any forms of iron other than red meat, so if I were to go vegan, I would get sicker and possibly die.

0:01:24 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, it's totally, I totally think that people can relate to this, especially anyone here in California because California, I think, is the capital of this kind of bullshit where people, it's not enough that people have their little diets, which is fine. It's that their diet cures everything. Their diet curses cancer. If you quit meat, you'll be, you know, you'll being able to dunk and you'll be five feet tall. It like, okay, right.

0:02:15 Ania: Yeah.

0:02:27 Ania: Gluten-free. Yeah. Yeah. And you see this a lot with things like kale, which is actually really, because leafy greens in particular are super dangerous for people with Crohn's. One of the reasons why they're so beneficial is because they don't digest properly, they create something called roughage, which is basically, they go down through your your intestines, and they grate us slightly. And as they do that, it encourages motility of the intestines, and also encourages mucus production, things that basically make digestion easier. But in the case of people with Crohn's disease, that kind of roughage can actually cause us to tear and bleed. So, and many of us frequently do tear and bleed. And so it it causes us pain and things like that. So for me, if I want to cheat on my diet, I don't, you know, reach for something unhealthy.

0:03:22 Ania: I reach for a salad. That's me cheating on my diet. That is me being super unhealthy. Um, I also, uh, in the choice between say white bread or whole grain, it's healthier for me to choose the white bread because the whole grain is too coarse.

0:03:35 Thomas: That's so fascinating. Yeah, well, it just goes to show that it's fine to have, you know, your fad diet or even even your good diet, but when someone has an actual condition, it doesn't apply, you know, or may not apply. You know, it's, it people, yeah, I'm sure you've had a lot of experience of people just telling you what's going to be the best thing for you. And it's like, well, actually,

0:03:46 Ania: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And at the same time, there's People, you know who recommend things that other people you know treat as actual medicine, like um, acupuncture, um, and I can actually say I've had acupuncture when I had my leg issue, one of the things that I tried, uh, when nothing was working, including actually the chemo. The chemo maybe took the slight edge off the pain, but I actually it wasn't enough to shut down my inflammation enough, which is pretty intense, but I was going to acupuncture in the hopes that it would release some of the the tension and that would maybe reduce some of the inflammation and it's, if there's any kind of effect, it lasts about half an hour and then it goes away, you know, and it says much, and the reason I think part of the reason why acupuncture still gets you passed around as something that seems reasonable is because, have you ever had that thing where you get something and it really really hurts and for whatever reason your head says that what would help would be jamming something into it?

0:04:04 Thomas: Oh yeah, well it's the, it'S possibly, yeah. I don't know. I definitely don't have as many conditions as you, so maybe this doesn't come up as much.

0:04:49 Ania: Yeah. I and I mean I don't know if it's, it's, I mean there have been some suggestions that I am probably autistic and there's a sort of association between pain and self-harm in autism, so maybe it's specifically an autism thing, but there's definitely been times where, like, my hip will hurt so badly and for whatever reason, for whatever reason, I feel like if I jammed a needle in there it would relieve the pressure somehow.

0:05:11 Thomas: Huh.

0:05:22 Thomas: Right. Yeah. But I mean, it's not your chakras or whatever. I mean, that's the funny thing is like, even when there's these studies that show some minor, minor thing that's probably just placebo, it's people who are pro acupuncture will be in favor of it. But it's like, wait, but that disproves what you're saying. Just because there's a tiny effect that's placebo doesn't mean that your chакras are... I don't know what the hell... I can't remember what the... But there's whole ideology behind why it works.

0:05:25 Ania: Yeah. No. Yeah.

0:05:41 Ania: Yeah.

0:05:51 Thomas: And there's, yeah.

0:05:50 Ania: So the the acupuncturist that I was seeing was one who was connected to sort of like one of these people who does both types of medicine kind of thing, so there was less of that chakra thing, and more. About What's funny too is he, he added electrodes to it, so I said, image of myself, uh, you know, hooked up like, like Frankenstein with, you know, being like, uh, with the needles in my back. It wasn't exactly like that, but I never got to see it cause it was in my bag. So in my head, it's always, you know those, those battery jumpers connected to, to needles in the back. But you know what people don't realize is the acupuncture can actually be extremely dangerous. Um, there was an Olympic athlete who basically had her career ruined because she went in for acupuncture and it caused her lung to collapse.

0:05:59 Thomas: Right. Yeah.

0:06:32 Thomas: Oh, man. Think the cleanliness of the needles can be an issue sometimes too.

0:06:38 Ania: It depends on where you're going, but but it is potentially an issue. Um, there's also, yeah,

0:06:39 Thomas: Right? Yeah. Well, the bottom line is just like, it may be fine, but there's no, it's like no reward for some non-zero risk that you're going to have some injury.

0:06:51 Ania: And I mean, with, with all of these things, what people don't realize is placebo effect is an extremely powerful force. It's So, it's so intense that when they do studies, they actually have to account for placebo effect to figure out whether a med actually works. So they do double blind studies where neither the doctor nor the patient knows whether they're taking the actual med or whether they are taking the placebo. And the reason for this is because they found that doctors can give away the answer a little bit by treating patients a little bit differently if They know.

But also patients who know, if they're getting the placebo it's not going to work as well than if they don't know they're going to get the placebo, although We'll get back to that in a second. Second. But placebo effect can happen in sometimes as often as 50% of cases. So what you need to show is that when you're giving the med, that it works more often than what would be accounted for simply by placebo effect. So placebo effect is actually a major factor. And what's really more interesting is even if you're aware of placebo effect, and aware that something could be placebo effect you could still be experiencing placebo effect so

0:06:58 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Yeah, of course. Yeah right.

0:08:04 Ania: It doesn't actually stop you from experiencing it it, even being aware of it. Um, so, and

0:08:09 Thomas: Let me ask you something. How do you deal with this in your personal life? Because I have a hard time. I'm a little conflicted. I don't project my atheism in my personal life at all. I mean, if someone asks me, I'll tend to answer, but I really, in my work life and my other interactions, I rarely talk about it. People people don't really know. But one thing I have trouble with is when people recommend this horseshit to me for, you know, like, oh, you've got a headache? Here, here's some bullshit that's not going to work. You know, that's when I have the hardest time because what I find so odd is right away, I'm the bad guy. If someone recommends something to me that's some bullshit pill or some, oh here's, some herbal whatever that's, you, know, and I, all I do do is say, oh, okay.

0:08:58 Thomas: And then I Google it. And the result says like, this is total crap. It's not going to do anything. Right away, I'm the bad guy. And I think it's so funny that our society, or at least the one I'm in, works that way. Like, if I look something up, I'm already an asshole for saying like, hey, so I looked that up and yeah, it doesn't work. Sorry. I don't even, you know. And there's been one time where I looked something up that someone recommended for me and And it was, it wasn't like super dangerous or anything, but it did have like a negative effect. And I wanted to tell the person like, hey, this thing you recommended, it's not really good for you, but I already feel bad for doing that, you know?

0:09:37 Ania: I mean, when you're someone with a disability, you almost deal with that even worse because it's not just that you're bad for looking it up and for ruining their, uh, you know, their beliefs, but you're also bad because you clearly don't want to get better or too negative. And then you get all the, you have to be positive bullshit.

0:09:41 Thomas: Right, right, right.

0:09:57 Ania: I'm, I mean, I have the kind of personality type where I like lecturing. It's a little bit, you might have noticed in this conversation, it's really easy to get me off topic by actually starting to explain to people how things work. So usually when somebody recommends something to me that I've already tried or that I'm more aware of, I will actually explain to them, I've actually done this before. I've also, you should be aware of that. And then I start, you know, giving them the information.

0:10:20 Thomas: Sure.

0:10:22 Ania: Um.

0:10:22 Thomas: Well, and yeah, I mean, that is the way you should be. And that's the way we should all be. I just think it's so, I'm sure you've dealt with hurt feelings. I'm sure you've dealt with, you know, like.

0:10:32 Ania: Threats. I've dealt with people, um, telling me that I was a bad person, telling me that I was, uh, well, It cured, yeah, Well, It Cured my mother's cancer. And the thing is, I'm never telling people not to use it. Like, this is something that I differ with from other skeptics is that other skeptics, if they meet somebody who uses something and it works for them, are inclined to tell them you're wrong for using it. My issue is, if it helps them, I've been there. I've been in disability. If it helps them, I don't care if it's placebo. Good for you. Use it. Just don't recommend it to anyone else.

0:10:40 Thomas: For dispelling their myths or, yeah, right.

0:11:05 Thomas: Yeah, well, I mean, but sometimes there are risks for these things. Like, I would not recommend chiropractic because there is a risk that, you know, you're going to get your neck messed up in it, or especially for a young kid or something where it's like, yeah.

0:11:18 Ania: And yeah, well, I mean, in the case of where it's children, I mean, children rarely choose this, so it's a different situation because it's being imposed by someone else. So at that point, you know, telling them, hey, this isn't actually helping your kid, that's different. But what I mean is more specifically, like, if somebody comes to me and says, look, this herbal treatment seriously helped me not have pain anymore, then even if I I know that it's complete bullshit and that this placebo effect, my thought is, is I don't necessarily want that, that person who has found something that works for them. Great. That's good for you.

But I also spend a lot of time telling people not to recommend things to other people, unless you, unless, you know, unless you're specifically their doctor and you know their condition or you experience the condition yourself, you shouldn't be recommending something to somebody else. And even if you have the condition itself, you don't have to do it. There's different things like two people with Crohn's disease can have completely different different diet restrictions. I know people with Crohn's disease who can't touch tomatoes, but I'm fine with them. I know people who are fine with apples, but sometimes apples can set me off, you know, so it's not even consistent within the disability itself or within the condition itself. So the best thing you can often do is to just keep it to yourself. Like, unless you're specifically asked for recommendations, don't offer them. You

0:11:19 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:11:54 Thomas: Amen to that. I mean, I doubt that the people listening are the kind who do that. I wish we could get that message to the wider society, you know, like just, okay.

0:12:44 Ania: Would be Surprised because sometimes well, okay, with the kind of people who would listen to your show, it won't necessarily be something like herbal treatments, but it will be specific um medical things, so they'll be like, oh, well, have you heard about this new Crohn's vaccine that's going around? And then the problem that I'm faced with there is having to explain to them why it's not actually as helpful as people think it is or why the article that they read it in was actually based on really bad science. Um, so I spent a lot of time, I mean, I have a benefit that I have enough of a scientific medical background that I can actually, don't want to make it sound condescending by saying, understand a lot of these studies, but I have more insight to some of these studies.

0:13:24 Thomas: Well, sure, it'll help to be scientifically literate, of course.

0:13:27 Ania: Yeah, it also helps that I also have a background in psychology and a background in English. I spent a lot of time in university and

0:13:33 Thomas: Wait, Yeah. Well, no, that's interesting. I just think it's so funny how people get so attached to their remedy or their thing. I mean, it might be a different story if someone asks you, like, hey, have you heard about the, you now, hey I know you have Crohn's, I just read something. Does this apply to you?

0:13:51 Ania: That's and that's what I've encouraged people to to move away from the "I know something that will help you" to "is it okay for me to offer advice?" And this is actually something that a lot people who talk about boundaries and talk about uh those kinds of things, I mean, this and talk about consent, this is a big one. When you're offering somebody advice, it can be taken badly sometimes. Sometimes offering somebody device can actually be showing a sign that you don't think that they're handling something correctly. So it's always better to ask if it's appropriate and if it is okay. So instead of saying, "Hey, I know exactly what will help you" or "I read a study that will help," it's better to say, "Hey, so I know this thing, is it okay to offer offer advice. Is it okay to pass it your way? Is it okay to talk to you about it?" You know, and by asking those simple questions, that gives me the power to say, you know what, I really don't have the energy to deal with another recommendation today.

0:13:56 Thomas: Right, right, right.

0:14:43 Ania: Or, you know, I can say, yeah, absolutely send it my way. And I can also decide whether or not I want to hear it from somebody based on how they've reacted to things in the past. So somebody, for example, who's gotten angry at me because their their thing didn't work, I'm not going to want to hear any other recommendations from them.

0:14:59 Thomas: Wow. Yeah, definitely must be even way bigger a problem for someone like you who has conditions that, you know, people's cures definitely won't apply to. And I'm sure you can't count the number of times people have recommended stuff to you, huh? Wow.

0:15:14 Ania: At some Yeah.

0:15:16 Thomas: Because here I was complaining about just a couple times a month, I'll have like a headache or something.

0:15:19 Ania: Yeah. Well, with people with disabilities, it can sometimes be a daily thing. I sometimes think that the reason a lot of us end up over time becoming antisocial is just because we want like one day where we're not going to face.

0:15:24 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's a good point. Jeez. Yeah! It's definitely something to consider for someone like me who doesn't have that problem. You know, I never would have thought of that.

0:15:40 Ania: Yeah, well.

0:15:41 Thomas: But I mean, at least it's people trying to help, but I'm sure it gets annoying after a while.

0:15:45 Ania: And I mean it's people trying to help, but sometimes the way people try to help, the implication isn't so much "I'm trying to health it's "I'm try to health because I don't think you're doing enough" and This is also one of the things that you get a lot sort of from religions where a lot of times, well, you'd get better if only you had faith. Oh, okay, I'm disabled and this is one, actually, even when I was still kind of religious I was receiving and it was just kind kind of like, oh, okay, so it's my fault that I'm disabled because I didn't believe enough? Are you kidding me? You know?

0:15:56 Thomas: Sure. Yeah... Well, there's no... Yeah, I mean that's one one of the frustrating things about religion is there's no, like, there's no logic to that that actually makes sense. Like, you can't explain why God decided to make you, you know, have all these ailments. Like, oh, oh. Okay. So, before you were even old enough to make a, you know, consenting like an actual decision on it, God had already inflicted you with this stuff.

0:16:39 Ania: Yep. And it gets even worse sometimes because a lot of people, there's something in this world called the just world fallacy, where we have a tendency to believe that people who had something bad happen to them did something to earn it. This is one of the things that victim blaming comes in for, that, well, that girl was raped instead of me, therefore she must have done something wrong in order to earn it, whereas in reality it's just bad place, bad time, you know nothing to do

0:17:07 Thomas: I just read something about this. Yeah, you're totally right. And I think there's a study, maybe you The study was something like, if you just showed random pictures of people that you wouldn't even know, I think it was that if they said something bad happened to this particular person, people just all of a sudden had bad opinions of them, even though it was totally not their fault. It's interesting that we do that.

0:17:09 Ania: Yeah and the same thing sort of happens with disability is that we tend to think that somebody that I have to be sick for a reason, I must have been sick for something to have this thing happen to me instead of having it happen to somebody else. And when you approach something like that from a religious mindset, then the things you must have have done are either be a bad person in this or a former life, have done something to displease God, or are being punished for something. And that's not a very useful approach to have when you're dealing with a condition. You already feel like a burden, you already feel bad. So having someone also come up to you and say, well, it's also your fault because you were a bad person. That's not really all that helpful. And it can be extremely damaging. And it can actually lead to thoughts, to higher levels of depression, because you think that you're to blame for your disability and

0:18:20 Thomas: Absolutely. I think that religious people almost have to be that way, because if you believe in God, I mean, you have to believe, like, well, God has good reasons, so you must have done something wrong. You must have been a sinner somehow or, you know. And it's funny because I think it's pretty horrible because even if they don't say anything, I think most religious people have to kind of think that in the back of their mind in order for the whole picture to make sense, you know? I definitely have talked to my share of believers who, after you talk to them about something, It's like, well, poor people, you know, they deserve to be poor. They did something for it.

0:18:48 Ania: Yeah you're not working hard enough, they're not lifting themselves up by their bootstraps and that kind of thing. And especially when you're somebody who's living on disability, you can face that a lot too, because there's the assumption of if you're on disability, it must be because you're a loser. As somebody who, you know, grew up having extremely high grades, you know, succeeding at singing, succeeding at a lot of these things, suddenly ending up on disability was a really hard hit for me because it felt like I had somehow wasted my potential. And it's not that I'd wasted my potentials that I got sick, you know. I, I can have all the potential in the world, but if I can't get out of bed because I haven't been able to eat in three weeks, you know, that's gonna change anything, yeah and I do want to make a point that for all that a lot of the religious just world fallacy ends up having sort of a supernatural cause and and whatnot, it's not just the religious who do all this stuff, right?

0:19:34 Thomas: Yeah. I, I can't, I, people like me who don't have that can only, can only imagine, you know, that, that's, that sounds terrible.

0:19:53 Thomas: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

0:19:56 Ania: I've had sort of the same kind of idea. And I mean, a lot of it, part of it comes from the fact that we have a society that props up ableism. We very much, we very much create a social attitude that there's an internal flaw, that there was something, flawed about somebody who's disabled, something other than potentially the fact that they can't, that they experience pain. And a lot of people don't even, who have disabilities, don't see their disabilities as a flaw. You know, somebody who's blind might not necessarily have a problem with the fact of that they're blind. They have a problem with that the society isn't set up to be accessible to them. And this is what we call sort of the social model of disability, where it's not so much our conditions that disable us, it's society that does.

0:20:41 Ania: And there's a lot truth to it. There's a a lot things that would be a lot easier for me as a person society was more to disability. One example would be, well, one example actually is I often have to use mobility devices when I go to stores. Part of the reason is because I get pain from standing too long. But another reason is just because my Crohn's means that I have very, very limited energy.

And if I can conserve some of it by I say using the scooter at the grocery store, then that helps me be able to do more with my day. It means that I can maybe come home and do something I enjoy rather than just spending my entire day on errands and never being able to doing anything else.

But when people see me using the scooter, there's a lot of shame because I'm considered too young, or the assumption is that I'm using it because I am too fat, or the assumptions is that if I am using the scooter, I better be so disabled that I cannot stand up in order to pick something up off the a high shelf. But none of those things are true.

0:21:36 Thomas: Right.

0:21:36 Ania: I'm not using it because I'm overweight. I'm not too young to use it because I have conditions. And just because I'm using it doesn't mean I'm not physically able to stand ever or walk ever. It just means that it helps. But because we have this ableist attitude towards only the people who can use assistive devices, or people who have the most extreme version of this disability, makes it difficult for, for people like me to, to get the accessibility that they need.

0:22:00 Thomas: Yeah, I definitely think that's a, that something to, that everybody needs to keep an eye on, uh, just being charitable toward, toward people for sure.

0:22:08 Ania: Yeah. But, and I mean, it even, it's even reflected in our language. One example, for example, you've used the term crazy as a descriptor for a lot of different things. And I mean that's something that a lot people in our society do like that was a crazy movie. That was a crazy experience, but actually create, it adds to a cultural stigma of thing of people who have mental health health problems, because there's this fear of being labeled as crazy.

0:22:08 Thomas: Mm-hmm.

0:22:36 Thomas: Well, I don't, I'm not sure I can get behind you on that one. So you think I need to stop using the word crazy because people inappropriately are going to think I'm talking about them or what?

0:22:45 Ania: No, it's more specifically, it's, while you might be using the word without necessarily thinking that you're using it because of this, it adds to a cultural stigma. It adds to cultural stigma that equates words like crazy with bad. Crazy equals bad. Lame equals bad. Well, lame literally means having a mobility disability, but you've now just equated that word with meaning is bad. Therefore, me being lame, it means that I'm bad and people are inclined to treat me that way. Uh, same with, um, something like the word dumb. The word dumb literally means, um, unable to speak. It's, it's a another word for mute, um, and yet we now use that word to mean unintelligent, which has had an effect on people who are non-verbal who are frequently treated as if they have no intelligence. A

0:23:32 Thomas: At what point do we run out of words to use? When something is bad, can I use that word? Okay, when something is Bad, how do I say, do I just have to say bad every time?

0:23:43 Ania: A lot of times it's about being more specific. A lot of times when people use the word stupid, what they actually mean is willfully ignorant. A lot times when they mean crazy, they mean it was shocking or ridiculous or frustrating. There's other words that you can use basically that don't have that same implication. It's about basically seeing how the words we use affect the society and how it adds to social perceptions. And looking basically at where the use of that word came from. It's the same way, for example, that people use the words gay to mean bad for certain things, you know, like, "Oh, that's so gay." Well, okay, but then you're creating a perception that being gay is bad, therefore calling somebody gay is bad, and therefore if somebody is gay, they're bad.

0:24:22 Thomas: Well, sure.

0:24:23 Ania: But

0:24:23 Thomas: I mean, it really comes down to common usage though, right? I mean you know that when someone says, whoa, that was crazy, they're using the word in a certain way. There's no other meaning of gay that makes any sense besides a bigoted use when you say like, oh, that's gay in a negative way. Like there's no culturally understood way of, or there's, sorry, there's no second dictionary meaning for gay. Like you wouldn't even find it in there. That's just because people are being bigoted toward gay people.

0:24:51 Ania: You'd find it in there as gay means homosexual and gay also means something that's, that's unappealing or bad or uncool. So you do use six

0:25:01 Thomas: I don't, really? Really? That's in the dictionary as a second use for gay? Oh, okay.

0:25:04 Ania: Definitions well I mean, in terms of the Urban Dictionary, the social dictionary. And it's the same. And I don't mean urban dictionary as urbandictionary.com. I mean, like, if you're going to someone and you say, oh, that's so gay, you know, are you saying that's a homosexual? Are you saying is that so bad?

0:25:10 Thomas: Well, okay, no, but there's only one option. When you use it that way, they're not referring to something actually homosexual, so they are definitely being bigoted and using the word in a negative way.

0:25:26 Ania: Okay, but then if I go and say he's gay, am I saying he's bad? Or am I seeing he's homosexual? Because when you then then apply it to a person, you can't actually tell which definition I'm using. And that's the problem.

0:25:40 Thomas: Don't, I no I, well, but I'm agreeing that that's

0:25:47 Ania: And it's the same way. If I call you, say, if I say, oh, that movie is so crazy, I could mean it as it's cognitively disabled, it has a mental illness, or I could mean it's not that great. But then if I said I had a crazy ex-girlfriend, do I mean she had a mental illness or do I mean some kind of social pejorative? The question is, is if you apply that word to a person, what are the other implications that it can have? And if you create a pejorive meaning around a certain word, you're creating the possibility that somebody who has that label is also experiencing the pejoritive side of that label.

0:25:48 Thomas: A, okay, I don't, I don't know that, I think I agree with all that, I don't know. I'm not sure what the disagreement is. When you're saying someone's gay, when you're saying something is gay in a negative way, that usage is only bigoted. It is all I'm saying. Whereas when you say, whoa, that was crazy, we understand in society that there is a different meaning of that word. It's not meant to insult anyone. Saying something is gay is only meant to insult someone.

0:26:55 Thomas: That's all I mean. It s just because of the common usage. It It's just because of the culturally understood meaning of it.

0:27:03 Ania: Here's the thing. Something becomes more common usage because it started out as a peyorative for something. The problem with something becoming a more common passage like the word crazy, it creates that way because we are so culturally convinced that it's understood that being crazy is bad, that we don't even need to think about that association anymore. My crazy ex-girlfriend, my crazy boss, my, you know, that shooter was crazy. But then there's people who are literally crazy, who have mental illnesses. I have a mental illness. I have ADHD, I'm probably autistic, I have depression and anxiety relating to my disabilities. I'm crazy. So every time somebody says, for example, because That's literally what the word "crazy" means. It means has a mental illness. That's where the word "crazy" comes from. That is the dictionary definition, if you will, of the word "crazy." So when you're saying that, it basically take the word like "crazy" and replace it with "cognitively disabled," and then see how you would feel saying, "Oh, God, my ex girlfriend was so cognitively disabled." Does it sound kind of squeaky that you're saying that as an insult? Because if it does,

0:27:41 Thomas: Why would you say you're crazy, though?

0:28:15 Thomas: No, okay. I'm not going to call someone... I wouldn't call someone crazy in that way, though. But I might call a thing crazy because a thing is a thing.

0:28:21 Ania: Then... See, you apply those Same ideas. The same idea is that you are applying it to a thing for these reasons. But if there are people who have that label, regardless of whether you would apply it to them or not, if that label can exist for a person, then you have to be careful about the way that you use it in other social contexts, because that creates a social idea of what that label specifically means. So if you label bad things crazy, and then you call people crazy, the equation is that person is bad. Uh, it's This you

0:28:53 Thomas: But the part that you said there that I said I wouldn't do is I don't call people crazy. I don't use the word...

0:28:59 Ania: Don't But A lot of people in society do.

0:29:01 Thomas: Okay, because other people call people Crazy. Therefore I can't use a word in a way that's consistent for me.

0:29:07 Ania: Okay, but how... but here's my question. If I've never met you before and I don't know that you would never call a person that, how am I supposed to know that when you use that word? So

0:29:15 Thomas: I don't know. Does it... could you... could we assume something?

0:29:18 Ania: Is It Better For you To... okay.

0:29:19 Thomas: Or is it... is it is it? I

0:29:20 Ania: But then, so here's the question. Is it better for you to avoid accidentally hurting someone, even if you don't mean to, more important to you than using that word or not?

0:29:29 Thomas: Think with... it depends on the word. I think it really does. If it comes up with a word... like gay, for example, there could be people who would make the argument that oh, no, I didn't really mean, you know, to insult gay people. I just... I grew up abusing that word. That's a case of the only conceivable meaning is an insult to gay people. With a word like, let's get off crazy, what's the other example that you brought up?

0:29:55 Ania: Lame.

0:29:56 Thomas: Yeah, with a word lame, there's no, I mean, honestly, no one uses that word to mean that. It just, the most common use of lame is, oh man, that's totally lame, that dude's lame, Or that thing is lame.

0:29:56 Ania: No, actually, I can give you many examples in which that word is still used. For example, my horse has gone lame is an example of where we use it to denote physical disability. You might not hear that very often because you might not spend a lot of time with people who are physically disabled. There is still a lot of people who use the term lame to specifically mean physically mobility impaired. There is another word, there is another specific definition to that word, which lame literally means mobility impaired. Absolutely.

0:30:44 Thomas: Right. Yeah. No, I understand. I think I might have misspoke with what I was saying there. What I meant to say is no one uses the word when they say, shit, I have to go to class. That's lame. Like, no one means, like, is it not, is there no element there where we can say, okay, that person is not in his heart or her heart or in their intent, meaning to insult anyone. It's just a word that means something. It has another meaning. Hmm.

0:30:47 Ania: Agree.

0:31:12 Ania: That people will say that word without meaning to insult people with that disability. The problem is that the person who's standing there doesn't know that. I have no way of knowing what's in your mind when you use that word. And that word has been used to insult me before. Therefore, I am going to, I'm going to wince at that because now you're somebody that I don't know whether you're somebody who'd consider me a bad person for being lame. Sorry.

0:31:37 Thomas: Well, I appreciate the debate, I really do. I'm going to think about it, I'm gonna reflect on it, and thank you for that. We've gone way over time now. No, no, that's okay. I think this was really fascinating because it's something I've definitely thought about before. For me, it's really hard because it is like, and I understand, I am not trying to complain about, you know, what was me or anything, but it's such an ingrained habit of this is a word that has no inherent insult to anybody, like, from my perspective. There's no, and so it's like, I need to take something that I 100% don't mean to insult anyone with, which most of society recognizes as not an insult to anyone, and then I need to change that because someone might assume I'm insulting them. And I think that's, it's just,

0:31:47 Ania: About that.

0:32:10 Ania: Yeah. Yeah,

0:32:27 Thomas: it'S a hard one for me. But, well,

0:32:28 Ania: The way Of looking at it is basically looking at how did that word become common parlance? One of the reasons that lame is used to mean something bad was because saying that somebody was lame was implying that there was something wrong with them. And I don't mean wrong with them just in the sense that they couldn't walk, there was something inherently bad about that person. And we do actually treat people with disabilities differently enough in the society that even though a lot of people don't necessarily think of it as an insult, the way they treat people with disabilities does come through. And they might not realize it, but there's a lot people who treat people with disabilities badly and in a way that's discriminatory without even realizing it.

0:33:05 Thomas: That, yeah, yeah, that's all, that all might be true. But when I, when I say, you know, the Superman versus Batman movie was lame, I don't see how that means I'm going to therefore treat someone with a disability badly. Like I get, I get it. It's just, there's nowhere in my intent is that it's a completely separate problem.

0:33:22 Ania: Because it's not in your head as an intent, but the fact that that exists as an insult is an actual representation of social values, even that you would have been influenced by, even if you are not thinking of that specific usage. It's not, no,

0:33:37 Thomas: Well then why does it make a difference? I mean, if it's something that's in society, that I will have been influenced by then at that point, the damage is already done, Yeah,

0:33:47 Ania: Because by being aware of it and by changing your usage, you can change the social perception. You can change, uh, you can change the social usage and by encouraging others to do it, you help create a society where people are going to stop and think, "Oh, wait a minute." It, when I'm calling this lame, am I, you know, am I being ableist? And then you can realize, "Oh geez, I'm adding to an ableist culture by equating people, uh, lameness with badness. Therefore, even though I would never personally equate lameness with badness, I'm going to stop using that word so that other people aren't influenced into thinking that lameness is badness."

0:34:20 Thomas: I appreciate you stating the case. I'm unconvinced, I'm sorry, but I do really appreciate you trying to change my mind and trying to change listeners' minds. But I'm not going to lie and say I'm going to be able to modify my thinking in that way. In terms of a practical issue, I think it would be easier to just that this word has taken on a new life. You know what I mean? It seems like that would be be easier than changing millions of people's minds on a word that they don't have an intent on, because it's like, you have to look up the history to even know that, for some of these words. Lame is a little easier, but for some OF these words that I've heard people saying we should stop using, it's, like, geez, you had to be a history major to even KNOW that there was some bad origin for it, and

0:34:32 Ania: But

0:35:06 Thomas: It just...

0:35:06 Ania: You Can Actually, it's funny because I thought the same way, and one of the major things for this was, for example, the use of the word stupid. I used to use that word a lot. And I very much agreed with you. But then I started to sort of see other sides of things. Who are more likely to receive that insult? Well, you're more likely to receive that insult if you're somebody who has a cognitive disability, like ADHD, like autism, like dyslexia. You're more like to be called stupid by teachers or whatnot. So there's that association between stupid equals me. Therefore, therefore, I'm stupid. Therefore, all these bad things that everybody who calls other things stupid, people who call other things stupid, are thinking these things of me. Therefore, for example, these people think that because I have ADHD I'm going to be a Trump supporter, or I'm going to be religious, or I am going to easily be taken in by scams. But none of that is true.

0:36:02 Ania: Or for example in the terms of the use of the word crazy. Well, we have this association that people who are crazy are violent. Therefore, if I let somebody know that I'm crazy, am I more likely to face violence because they're afraid that I am going to cause violence to them? Words matter.

0:36:17 Thomas: Yeah, fair enough. I think I'm going to consciously decide to not say another thing, because I think we'll just continue around in circles. But I know I do appreciate it. I really appreciate you debating with this, because it's, I think that's the only way we're going to solve anything, is actually engaging with one another. So from that angle, thank you so much for being willing to talk about it. And, you know, I don't mean anything, any of these words I've used as an insult. I hope you don't take it that way. Like, I Don't, In no way do I mean to insult anyone with these words I'm using. They have a meaning that I don't think is related. So as long as there's no ill will from that, I don't mean to consult you personally on any of this stuff. Barring that, I really appreciate the debate, and I appreciate you trying

0:36:29 Ania: Good point. Yeah.

0:37:07 Ania: No

0:37:07 Thomas: To make your case.

0:37:08 Ania: Problem. No problem!

0:37:11 Thomas: We'll see what the listeners feel like. Maybe I'll get a bunch of comments that are like, you idiot. Oh wait, is that one okay? Can I say that?

0:37:18 Ania: Actually, that one also has an A plus back.

0:37:20 Thomas: What do you know? What do I know? See, everything does. See, this is where I'm unconvinced, because I think it's easier to just ditch that part of it than it is to get people to change their entire vocabulary.

0:37:31 Ania: Changing the language, change, I mean, a big part of changing the language is really about forcing people to examine where that language comes from. It's not so much necessarily that they're using the word that badly, but if you understand the origins, you can sort of understand how the origins of that influence society. And by forcing people think about the word, you're forcing them to think about the systemic underlying biases of society.

0:37:55 Thomas: Fair enough. I'm still going to use the word idiot. Can't help it. Sorry. I don't know. I guess I'm an idiot. Well, I'll apply that to me, and then does that work? So if I'm in idiot, do I get to use it? Is that cool? Is it like taking on the language? No, I'm just teasing. Okay. Thanks so much. We're way out of time, but it was certainly a worthwhile debate.

0:38:14 Ania: No worries. It was nice talking to you.

0:38:19 Thomas: You too, let's remind people. So, Ania Bula, the book, you can find it. I'll put a link, certainly, to the book on Amazon. Young, Sick, and Invisible, A Skeptic's Journey with Chronic Illness. Thanks so much for speaking with us today.

0:38:32 Ania: Thank you very much.

0:38:46 Thomas: Well, okay, so as promised, contentious. I also would like to reiterate I, that was in no way planned. I had no preparation for those arguments. I don't think I was being, you know, terribly precise or or compelling, necessarily, with some of those arguments, but I've been reflecting on this interview and this debate a bit, and I still, I just can't get behind the idea that we need to take away these words from people's vocabulary that are so far away from these origins that, by the way, might not even be as bad as Ania made them out to be. So I've got a lot of thoughts.

0:39:32 Thomas: I don't think this will be the final word. I actually, this is one of those times where I really want to find out what you guys think and then maybe later I can respond to your thoughts and comments to, to better collect my thoughts. But I do have quite a few thoughts on the issue. So let's talk about the word crazy. Um, I, so I initially was going one direction with this. I was going to talk about this a certain way. And then I just, just for fun, I looked up the etymology of the word, crazy. Crazy. And this is so dumb. So, well, sorry, another word I can't use. But if I look it up on Etymology Online, it says late 14th century, crase, crasen, spelled a different way, to shatter, crush, break to pieces, probably Germanic and perhaps ultimately from a Scandinavian source such as Old Norse, krasa, shatter.

0:40:25 Thomas: But entering English via an old French crasir, compare modern French accrasser. Original sense preserved in crazy quilt pattern in reference to cracking in pottery glazing, 1815.

0:40:42 Thomas: By 1620s, perhaps comes via transferred sense of be diseased or deformed. So this is so funny because the original meaning behind this word crazy or or craze, or back in the, the original, uh, origin of it is being cracked or shattered. And And they actually used it to describe glass or pottery being cracked. And then from there, I think it transferred into being diseased and being, you know, crazy, like we know it. So, I just think it's funny. My point here is not that it'll turn out that all these words are actually fine. That is not at all my point. It just as easily could have been the other way around, that the word originally meant someone who has a mental disability and And then we took it to mean other things.

0:41:29 Thomas: It totally could have just as easily been that way. My point with talking about this is, should it really matter which came first in the late 14th century? Should that etymology really matter? I kind of don't think it should. Now, it'd be one thing if this was more recent. But honestly, if we want to have this debate on the word crazy, the etymological comes comes from to shatter, crush, to break in pieces, which then that was applied to maybe someone with mental illness, and it's the other way around. So, I could make an argument if I wanted. Oh, well, the original meaning of this word is not what you're saying. It was to shutter, crush, and break in places. So crazy, that makes sense. It's like shattered or broken or something Something like that.

0:42:15 Thomas: So I thought that was funny, but that's not even really the crux of my argument, because like I said, could have just as easily gone the other way, I don't know, I wasn't around in the 1400s, or the 1300s even, I dunno, and that shouldn't affect my intent behind a word really, I dont think, it should more be what it means to us now. But the real thing I want to say in terms of crazy, crazy. Ania said that I shouldn't use it. Crazy means, you know, mentally disabled or whatever. And people use that word to describe people with mental disabilities or conditions. Negatively, therefore I shouldn't use it. Here's what I want to say about that. I have I have these too. We can all play this game. You know, I do have some some issues.

0:43:02 Thomas: Certainly, I don't really want to go into it. But I've talked about it a little bit. I've I've seen a therapist. You know, I certainly have conditions and qualities that if someone wanted to insult me, I guess could call me crazy. But I don't, but that doesn't mean when someone says, oh, that movie was crazy, that I should take offense to that. It's just not, it's not worth anything. It really isn't. It doesn't help anything. And honestly, as someone who does suffer from a bit of things that could be called crazy to not go into it from time to time, some thinking patterns that can be unhealthy, I'll just say, from someone who suffers from that, I fully accept that the word crazy has a negative meaning.

0:43:55 Thomas: It means... here's the dictionary definition, mentally deranged. This is, of course, definition number one. There's actually another definition, extremely enthusiastic. So, I wonder if that's okay. Can I say I'm crazy about someone? Is that okay or is that too offensive? I just... this is so unhelpful, I think. But back to what I was saying. I accept as someone who has seen a therapist and has issues that could be called crazy, I still accept crazy as a bad thing. Crazy can be a negative word. That's okay. You know what? I don't want to be mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a wild or aggressive way, according to the definition. I, I'm, that's what that word means.

0:44:41 Thomas: That's a meaning of the word as people commonly use it. I don't want to be that. I want to be someone who has perhaps some quirks and some patterns of thinking that aren't altogether good, who's trying to manage it. That's what I want to be. Furthermore, if it did turn out that, I don't know, I snapped or something and was acting mentally deranged in a wild or aggressive way, someone could feel free to use the word crazy to describe my wild or aggressive actions, and that would be an appropriate use of the word. I really, I'm just unconvinced by this argument. I don't get it. There are certain things in life that are negative, and I don't think we can escape them by trying to choose different words and just be super extra oversensitive about these words we're using.

0:45:29 Thomas: It is a negative thing to be mentally mentally deranged in a wild or aggressive way. That's a negative thing. Well, I'm sorry. It just is. I hope to not be that. I try to avoid that. You know, I was about to say God knows, but you know, we're all atheists around here. But, you know, Spaghetti Monster knows that, you know, if I'm not careful, if I don't do my best to manage my conditions that I have, and other people certainly have far worse conditions than I do, then that could happen. The meaning of the word doesn't affect that, it really doesn't. Acting in a, once again, mentally deranged as manifested in a wild or aggressive way, acting in that way will still be a bad thing.

0:46:14 Thomas: If you have a condition that leads to that, that will still be bad regardless of what words we use to describe it or, furthermore, what words we use describe other things that are not even related to you. So that's the part we haven't even got to. When I say that movie is crazy, that doesn't even relate to a person. I also reject the parallel with the word gay. I think that was a lot of her argument.

The problem is, it doesn't make any sense to say, oh, that is so gay, because there is no other... If you look in the dictionary, which she... she She claimed the definition of that would be like bad or something negative would be in the dictionary, and then she backpedaled and said, well, I just mean the urban as the uses, yeah, well that's not in the dictionary, there is no definition that makes any sense besides gay, of or relating to homosexuals, that's the definition number four, by the way, so because there's happily excited, keenly alive, but none of those definitions has anything that you could make into being, I don't even want to say, yeah, say negative, so the analogy doesn't work because there is no definition besides the one where I'm just saying in my brain, if I were a person using this word incorrectly, I would say, oh, I hate gay people.

Therefore I'm going to call things I hate gay. That's all that's happening. That's like if someone hated Mexicans and then started calling things they hated, Mexican. That, which, by the way, is something bigoted people do, actually. But there is no alternative definition of Mexican that you would say makes any sense. It only makes sense in the context of being a bigot.

0:47:59 Thomas: That's why it's different from a word like crazy where it actually makes sense. If you call a movie crazy, it can make sense. If you called something that happened, whoa, that was crazy what just happened. It's out of, it's not normal, it is unexpected, it has a definition that is different from saying I hate people of a certain type, I'm going to apply this word to them. It's descriptive. Prescriptive. It's not, the analogy does not work for me. Wow, I'm already running short on time. Let me let me talk about the word stupid, by the way, because that was one said she said stupid. Don't call people stupid. Say willfully ignorant. And then later on, actually more so, you would have just heard this because this was much later.

0:48:46 Thomas: She said she listed out. And by the way, Ania, I'm sorry if you're listening and I, I know I'm talking and you don't get to respond now. So I actually do apologize for that. If you do want to respond to what I've said, uh, feel free to email me. I could read the email or we could even arrange something later on. So sorry for that, I, but, but I just have reflected and I've, I've reflected more on this. I want to express my thoughts further, but anyway, she listed like, it was kind of ridiculous. It was like a nine step process. Uh, you can go back and even listen to it. It It was, well, people who have, and I wrote down part of it, oh, think of the people who are more likely to be called stupid, she said. She said, if you have dyslexia or ADHD, and then it was like a nine step process that I'll be honest, does not make sense to me.

0:49:34 Thomas: Like, well they're likely to be called stupid and so they associate that word. So then when you call something stupid, they're going to think that's me and you're calling me bad. Honestly, it's, that's too much. That's too many weird steps to be reasonable. It really is. And here's the thing. I was thinking about it, and there's not a part of her argument where you couldn't make the same argument for the word ignorant. It's the same thing. If someone has dyslexia or ADHD, look at this ignorant person. They can't even form an opinion because they can't read on this thing or they can't pay attention. It's the same thing that you're adding willfully. Okay. What about willfully stupid? Would that be okay? Is the willfully the appropriate part?

0:50:21 Thomas: And then if we're really splitting hairs down to that deal detail where I have to say, like, oh man, that movie was stupid. Oh wait, no, can't say that. Oh, that meant that movie was willfully stupid. I mean, stuff like that just doesn't make sense. A movie can be stupid. A move can be a movie. What, what other word am I going to be required to describe things in a way in just the right way so that someone will make, won't make some weird nine step association such as Ania described and then take offense to that? That. I just can't buy it. I apologize. I'm really wondering, maybe I'm going to get an avalanche of comments of, Thomas, you really, you insensitive asshole. But look, I try to be sensitive to most things.

0:51:09 Thomas: I really do. But I think it's important to be reasonable. And when we're talking about words like this, where the actual meaning or whatever the original etymology is, is so far divorced from how they're actually being used. And you can tell with very high certainty that someone who says this book is lame does not mean to insult someone with a disability. Like you just, we, she even acknowledged, no, we know that. It's just the environment we want in society, create a nice thing.

I just, that's too abstract for me. I apologize. I'm very sorry. I don't mean anyone any offense, that's a little too abstract. I think the most frustrating thing about this is that society has progressed to the point, and I certainly would, I would never call somebody who is disabled by one of these insulting terms, like I would never look at someone who was born with some deformity, which by the way I have plenty, I was born as well, just to cover that little base, that was born was some deformities, and call them lame to describe, I just wouldn't. We've gotten to that point where that doesn't really even apply. But the idea that even though that word doesn't apply to people like that anymore, and in our society, in our progressive society, which is good, we don't apply those terms to people. But now to go a step further and say we can't apply terms like that to inanimate things without feelings because people will make some association where they think that's insulting them, that's unreasonable to me.

0:52:54 Thomas: Not reasonable. Understandable. So, we're coming to a close here. I think I pretty much said everything that I wanted to say. Look, I don't want to offend people unnecessarily. I really don't. I think there are people who have a very callous attitude, oh, how dare people be offended, they should just learn to live with it, ignore it, you know, it's just words. I don't really take that attitude. I think we should do our best to not be offensive whenever we can, within reason. Of course, this is something that I think is not a reasonable connection to make. There is a line that we need to draw between reasonable and unreasonable. We'll do our Best to find that line.

0:53:41 Thomas: We can't start drawing detailed, abstract connections to words that otherwise should not cause any offense. And, you know, I admit with some of these words, crazy, lame, dumb, all that, they're not too terribly abstract. I shouldn't say that it's incredibly abstract. It's just when they're actually just describing something sort of almost factually, like if I say that movie was crazy, I'm not, it doesn't even mean negative, by the way. There's actually plenty of crazy movies that I like. Inception, that movie was crazy. I like Inception. Can I not use that word? I'm being positive. Anyway, I think I've covered it, but I will say that I don't want to cause people offense if it's reasonably certain that I'm doing so.

0:54:35 Thomas: I do apologize, so I'm open to the arguments. I really am. I certainly don't mean this to be the last word on this. If I hear a compelling argument in the comments or, I If Ania emails me something, I don't know, I'm open to more argument on this, I really am, I just, it's, this is a tough one, I can't quite get behind it, so, sorry for that, I apologize if that causes anyone offense, I, I really don't mean it to, I just wanna use words like crazy to describe a movie like Inception, if that's okay, if, if I'm allowed to do so, thank you. All right. I'll see you guys at, ooh, exciting. I should have CogDisc coming up soon. Not sure how the scheduling will work out, but in any case, I'm excited for next episode. I will talk to you then.