AS223: Angry Black Rant

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:30 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. I am your host, Thomas Smith. This is episode 223. All right, we've got an action-packed part two with my great guest, Ishmael Brown, host of the Angry Black Rant podcast. And we've got a lot for you today, so why don't I just get right to it?

0:01:02 Thomas: So this was something, I think I started to introduce this. So Eli talked with David Smalley on Dogma Debate about this a little bit. And I thought it was interesting because I have some, I have a few thoughts on it. The idea of, let's just talk about the principle, what amount of civil disobedience and what amount of disruption is acceptable or okay or whatever word you want to use for Black Lives Matter protesters or any protesters really? Although I guess it would maybe depend on what they're protesting because maybe it is somewhat a factor like how much disarray you should be allowed to cause is a factor of how much wrong you think you've been done. So I don't know. Maybe it'll be a factor.

0:01:47 Thomas: But in general, let's talk about the principle of, like, the disagreement they had was Black Lives Matter disrupted the airport, I think, right? Is that the one they were talking about? Was it, was it, Was it Oakland or what? San Francisco?

0:01:57 Ishmael: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was the big thing, inconveniencing people there. It was in San Francisco, and I think Minneapolis or something, it was, uh, pretty sure it was the Minneapolis airport and, uh, airport in the San Franciscan International Airport as well, so it was those two.

0:02:19 Thomas: Now, I want to get into this because I'll be honest, I don't know. I really don't Know what I think about this, actually, because, okay, in, well, why don't I just let you start? All right. What do you think about that? What do you think of that debate and the line there, where the line is in the sand for that?

0:02:20 Ishmael: Yeah.

0:02:37 Ishmael: The thing about that debate, and I listened to it, and it's funny, someone told me, oh, you gotta to listen to that. I listen to Dogma Debate anyway, but they were like, you know, Eli's on, so I'm gonna follow him from podcast to podcast, anyway, um, and Thomas, you have no idea, we can talk about that, I go to sleep, um, listening to podcasts, I have vivid dreams of the podcast I'm listening to, like I had a dream about you and your brother flying kites, and you were putting up like, uh, security, and it was just weird stuff.

0:02:51 Thomas: Where do you get time to listen to like 400 podcasts? Separate question.

0:03:05 Thomas: Oh, man.

0:03:13 Ishmael: But it's because I'm just falling asleep listening to podcasts and I hear your voice. I had one podcast I was on, the GAM, and I fell asleep during it, and I woke up and I felt so bad, and we were like in the kitchen, and no one was like, it's okay, but he was so pissed, and I could tell, you. Anyway, I mean, I, I can't, because I'm the type that can't go to sleep without, with silence.

0:03:13 Thomas: Oh that's awesome. I love it.

0:03:33 Ishmael: So I, so I listen to podcasts and then I have these weird ass dreams.

0:03:33 Thomas: Oh okay. So you haven't actually listened to any of them, you just sleep through all of them.

0:03:39 Ishmael: No, because then I wake up and I listen to it, I'm like, oh, that's what my dream was doing, like Um, but okay.

0:03:44 Thomas: That's funny. Okay. So, okay. Sorry. Back on the subject.

0:03:47 Ishmael: Okay, so I mean, the thing about the Dogma Debate thing with David Smalley, he, they were, the, the, the objection David had, it seemed like it was, um, inconvenience, inconvenient, and he gave a hypothetical of what if someone was either trying to see their dying mother or they had like, let's say, a kidney or a heart they needed to transplant.

The way I feel about it, and I'm, I'm really an extreme when it comes to this, I don't give a fuck, people are dying, people are getting killed by cops, I literally feel like do whatever you can to bring that to the public's conscience, and I understand there may be some, there, there, there may b, there's going to be a lot of things that may happen, that, and and the way he was saying it was, so you're telling, violence, Black Lives Matter more than like me trying to go see my dying grandmother, or black life matters more than, and I'm like, no, we're just saying, as a society, the fact that black people are being killed on our black people, that's what matters. I mean, we just want to be human. And we get that maybe the protests and stopping people to get, we are literally not trying to tackle like some guy trying to rush a heart to, you know,

0:05:00 Thomas: Yeah.

0:05:00 Ishmael: To the hospital, but we're, we're literally saying, okay, this is society, we live within a society that has rules and regulations, and we have to stop that because you are seeing black people die every day and no one cares. So maybe if we disrupt your life, you will start to pay attention. And I get a lot of people get offended, I get, like, well, he's trying to say, we're saying black lives matters more than my life. No, we're not saying that.

We're just saying, listen, cause me, like I said, I'm the extreme, burn something down, like, as far as you ask me, I'm not saying kill people, but just do everything, but that, burn a motherfucking building down if you have to get people to listen, if you're your freaking son being shot dead, a 12 year old boy who had a toy gun in a playground getting shot dead, and a guy getting off, burn the city down, that's how I, and I know that's an extreme, and I know a lot of, I probably am not the best representative because people are gonna say, man, man, you, you're just giving them all types of reasons to dismiss you. But

0:06:02 Ishmael: That's how I feel.

0:06:01 Thomas: Yeah, that's pretty extreme. I'd say that's a good characterization. Yeah! Okay. Well, wow. I don't know about burning. See, it's hard. I do, but

0:06:14 Ishmael: Burning a building down. I get a guy loses money and he had it. He was just a regular citizen trying to do his best. And he burnt down his drugstore. OK, that's wrong. Kids are dying. Why are you even bringing that up? And especially the people who bring that up and they say, oh, they were on your side. Really tell me when the fuck that guy was fucking fighting for the life of some kid who got shot in the chest. Because he was a 12-year-old kid with a toy gun on a playground. Like, it's... Go ahead.

0:06:43 Thomas: When you, I think here's the the thing. When you start to open it up, I'm speaking philosophically and I understand, you know, it's tough because I actually do. And I think something my brother said on Shoosh, oddly enough, a while ago was, it is something, I am very sensitive to the fact that this is something Fox News and, you know, basically closeted racist people will do is, you now, try to misdirect and and say, well, how could you do that? And they'll discount the entire protest because they're trying to focus on, they'll pick out a story. This person couldn't do this, or you caused this, you know, this dying woman was on the plane, whatever it is, you know? Whatever the story is. And I'm

0:06:45 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even

0:07:25 Thomas: Very sensitive to that.

0:07:25 Ishmael: Though none of that happened, by the way. Because it would have been in the news.

0:07:27 Thomas: Well, I'm Very Sensitive to that, but by that logic, it's like, if I go drunk driving and I don't hit anyone, you have to talk about, is the principle of being able to stop an entire airport for a length of time. Like, is that okay? Because here's my thinking, and see if you can, you know, maybe you disagree, but at least let me know where I'm wrong here. There is a line somewhere. We can establish that. It's not like if Black Lives Matter said, we're blowing up a hospital, you would say, okay, that's not right. You can't do that, right? We can establish there is a line somewhere, right.

0:08:07 Thomas: Can you agree there? Okay. Okay, if we're establishing what's a line, now I'm just wondering for me, like to try to, for myself, to try to figure this out philosophically, like how do you, so where do we, how do we draw that line and where do we get to it? Because I'm all for causing disruption. I think you're right. I think the only way to get the message across is to disrupt some stuff, you know, and naturally disruption is going to come with consequences and like, like, yeah, Well, inconvenience, fine, fine. If that's all we're talking, that's fine.

But I get really worried when lives start to get in the mix, when it's like, if it comes to light that there's a protest where there's a reasonable expectation that someone will die as a result of this, let's say, just hypothetically. I'm not saying the airport was or wasn't. But if we get to the point where they're stopping up, I don't know, they're stopping up enough of a thing where it's maybe this is an ambulance route to a hospital and they cause enough of a disturbance that it's expected that this is going to cause that much of a problem. That's where I worry that you can't do harm to other unrelated parties in order to fix harm.

0:07:57 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah, of course.

0:08:32 Ishmael: Inconvenience in people. Yeah.

0:09:19 Thomas: That's what I get worried about because like, I mean, for all you know, someone who might, let's say it's an ambulance, someone in an ambulance. That person could have been a Black Lives Matter, you know? Supporter. They could have Been a Black person. And they could have been somebody who's on your side, who their life might be lost because of this disruption. So I worry about that, you know, like that is a little troubling. And once we get to the point where it's sort of unrelated parties too, you Know, I mean, I understand they usually do these protests. There's usually some logic to them. Obviously they're trying to affect the people, but it's like, okay, if the shooting, if people are dying of a shooting in a state in the South or whatever. Where was the, is it Tamir Rice? Was that the, God, it's hard, there's been so many.

0:09:58 Ishmael: Yeah.

0:10:06 Thomas: I can't, so

0:10:06 Ishmael: That Was I I know that was in Cleveland, I'm I'm sure it was in Ohio, at Least it's

0:10:08 Thomas: If that happens in Ohio and then we get a disruptive protest in San Francisco, say, like, once you get that unrelated, how far can we take that? I mean, well,

0:10:22 Ishmael: Not unrelated, because it's America. I mean, it's America. See, this is the thing, I feel like society works a certain way and if you're living in a society and you see your people being Being jailed more than other people, you see are people being assassinated by police, or at least murdered if you don't want to use assassinated, and society continues to go and society continues the whales just continue to spin, you have to disrupt society. And even though everyone else who may not be related to that direct crime is living in society and having a good time, there are a certain segment of people who are not, so they have to say society is wrong, so I have to stop society, I have to inconvenience everyone in society, or as much as I can, to get you guys to realize, to look at and say there's a segment that does not benefit from this, uh, well-oiled machine. In fact, it is systematically destroying us, but

0:11:19 Thomas: But it does vary within states though, is all I'm saying. I mean if a particular corrupt or racist judge or or a race, you know, whatever, lets a police officer off in Cleveland, there's not a whole lot California can do about it. Like, I understand raising awareness, but then, I mean, we, the way the justice system works, like, we don't, there is nothing we can really do other than, I guess, make noise about it, yeah, right,

0:11:37 Ishmael: Yes. But it's, it's not a state, there, there isn't a state where black people are just benefiting, or Like it's Nicht canceling out, I mean, it's just, it's a systematic thing. Once something's systematic in the court systems and the frigging Clintons do the, uh, three strike laws, and once, like, crack cocaine gets a higher, um, sentence, than a longer sentence than powder cocaine, that's usually used by white people, or people Who are wealthier. I mean, it's, it's a systematic think where it's like, so, because this is the thing, I grew up young, I'm, well, that doesn't make any sense, I grew grew up and I started to realize at a young, black, as a young black kid, by the age of 12, that society, like, I would go in the store to buy something and someone to follow me, or they'll accuse me of stealing, or cops will come to our neighborhood and harass us, we'll be walking to school and cops will pull us over and pat us down.

I was, I learned quick that society saw me a certain way and I wasn't welcomed in it, so I began to embrace that identity. I, I hated society. I fucking wanted to lash out at it. You were literally telling me, like, you are not a part of us. You are a threat to us. You are the bad guy. You know, I grew up as a kid watching Peter Pan and watching The Breakfast Club and identifying with them. And then I walk in the street and I realized, no, I can't identify with anyone in The Breakfast Club.

0:12:09 Thomas: Right. Okay,

0:13:05 Ishmael: They don't identify. And I started to realize, no. There's a thing called society in the movies that I watched, 16 Candles and Pretty in Pink. And then there's you. You are The Villain of this story. So I embrace that villain. So, I mean, what, what I'm saying is I'm, what I'm basically saying is, I think there's a problem with society as a whole, as far as how they view black people. And if black people feel like we have to disrupt society to get you to at least start to look at us, I'm okay with that. I'm not talking about murdering anyone or anything like that, but if you got to shut down traffic, okay. Okay. Like I talk about burning down buildings and honestly, that's only monetary and I'm I'm not literally saying doing that, but I'm not against that. If there's a, you know, a CVS and they're rioting and they're angry and they're in this city that they feel does not represent them.

0:13:56 Ishmael: They want to burn down these things where they walked into that building and they were looked at as nothing but a nigger, and they're followed around, and then they say, oh, you're burning down, I think they're doing the wrong thing. Well, you can burn down people buildings in the city, but go and burn down shit in the suburbs too. And I'm not saying they should do it, but but I'm saying I don't misunderstand why they're doing it. And I understand the frustration and the anger.

0:14:19 Thomas: But, but than I guess would you say now, you you know, when they're charged with arson, would, I mean, are you okay with that? Like,

0:14:25 Ishmael: Yeah. Hey, they are black people doing crimes. Black people get arrested for not doing crimes, of course. I'm not going to say, oh, you can't not arrest them. No, arrest them, that's a thing of protest.

0:14:33 Thomas: I, but that's what we're talking about. Like, are You talking about like, yeah, I don't know. I see what you're saying, but I'm confused. I'm kind of confused as to, you know? Cause you keep saying like, well, I'm not against it, but, um, I I'm, I, I think that's, that's the, that, that that's not for, you never, but. I donno.

0:14:42 Ishmael: Okay. Well, No, I'm, I don't know. I'm encouraging it. I'm seeing if they do it, I' m not going t be like, well, they shouldn't have done. You' re not going hear me say they shouldn' t have burned something down. And Maybe I'm giving too much lead way because I'm giving people too much ammo and I could have played cool and just been like, yeah, I think blocking traffic's good, but I'm just putting it all in and saying I'm not against any type of protest that isn't murder, that isn't killing people. Like, disrupt society as much as you can until they listen to you. People, your people are dying every day. And not, and let's not just say dying, you guys don't have a chance.

The kids are growing up with shitty schools. I mean, you don't, you do not have a chances a black person. So what are you gonna do, just like do a peaceful, uh, sit-in? Or like, I, I don't even know. Like, do everything you can to try and change the system is what I'm saying. And I'm not saying there's not going to be repercussions. Yeah, of course, you burn something down, you get caught, that's arson, you know what I mean. But

0:14:55 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah.

0:15:44 Ishmael: I'm Not, I mean, and and I get there's a lot. I'm, I'm not, I'm probably not that the uh majority of the way people think within my community. But as far as blocking traffic to go to airport, I, that to me is nothing is nothing. Like, okay, you inconvenient some people and blah blah blah, you know, and I get that there could be larger repercussions Where Someone Go Ahead

0:15:44 Thomas: Okay. Yeah, I think just, just to sum up, I encourage the inconvenience part. I do think that that what, what, that's what it takes to get noticed. I just, the only thing I worry about is a blank check license because, because, you know, if a group like Black Lives Matter or any group, like if any group comes up and says, like, let's say it's a feminist group and a feminist group says, you're being killed by men. We're the biggest, the biggest thing, you know, violence against women is, is by men, like the biggest cause of female deaths, all all this, whatever. And they say, because of that, we get to burn whatever we want. I mean, once you start adding all these things up, you're going to have a pretty rough situation. You're going have like a, well, sure.

0:16:07 Ishmael: Yeah.

0:16:49 Ishmael: A Terrible Society I'm not saying they get to burn, I'm just saying I understand if people do that. Like, I understand. I'm totally not saying hey, what you're angry go burn something down, but the only reason why I bring it up because I heard people, people, uh, Fox News and a few other people talk about like, I guess, like a CVS and a few stores were burned down during the protest, um, and they were making that seem like, look, we were on your side, even though the people say that we're never on their friggin side until You Burn Down That Store Okay.

0:16:56 Thomas: Yeah.

0:17:15 Thomas: But what if they were, but what if they were? Yeah.

0:17:19 Ishmael: Even if they were, like, I like the anger and the frustration. I don't know how you can, I'm, I don't know how you can control that. Like, if you feel like you, you are nothing in society. Like when, like the story I was telling you about me growing up and when I felt like I was outside society, I hated society. Once you tell someone you don't count within this world where other people are being successful and because of the color of your skin and because the way you're born, you don't matter. Then like, and then in the same breath, you're saying, oh, but you should respect the what society around you. Like, I just don't, I don't know how you can do that. And, and it's funny, I'm saying that as a person who felt that way, but still found a way to try and navigate through it, you know, but I know I'm the exception, you know?

0:18:09 Ishmael: I'm not the rule. Like I got lucky enough to go to college because I was good in sports. But if I like, sometimes I, I say like, I have friends who have nothing to lose. They, their life is nothing's going to happen. Guys I grew up with, nothing good's going gonna happen. They can try their best, they just been dealt a bad hand, they weren't lucky enough to be educated. Like they weren't in the school so they're not educated, I don't, I mean they're not doing anything, but in my mind I'm like, I don't know how this guy's just going through his miserable life. I, like, I don't know how he just like accepts that and just says, well, this is my lot in society and I'll just end up dying poor and lonely, and then he's dead. Like, so I get get where a group of people, especially after unarmed kids are being killed, why the anger just like boils over. And I'm not saying people should burn down shit.

0:19:02 Thomas: No, I don't ever mean to say I don understand the anger. I very much do do understand the anger. I just, my only worry is in a blank check to do any sort of thing you want because you've been wronged.

0:19:07 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah, and I'm not giving anyone a

0:19:16 Thomas: Yeah, that's all. That's all, mm-hmm.

0:19:17 Ishmael: Blank check. If you do the wrong shit, like the Rupert, I'm not going to say, hey, he was protesting. No, you know, don't arrest him for arson. I'm just saying I understand why they would go that far. I understand Why people would say society doesn't want me fuck society I'm gonna try and destroy the society that doesn't want me I'm not a part of this anymore but obviously and maybe I'm going to extreme because black lives matter is not necessarily that and and I'm probably like hurting my argument I should have just stuck to interrupted traffic this is me though like I'm I'm an angry fucking guy you know I mean yeah

0:19:28 Thomas: Sure, well, I get it. I get it.

0:19:50 Thomas: Hey, no, I'm glad that you, I, I am glad that your, you're giving your opinion. Like, I'd rather hear what, you know, your full uncensored thoughts on it. And I don't want you to hold anything back.

0:19:55 Ishmael: Yeah but as far as stopping traffic, uh, the airport, to do that all day, you can do that every freaking day, okay, people got arrested, okay, then, you know, if people want to do that again, people get arrested do

0:20:10 Thomas: What, Let me just ask you hypothetically, if the group, just to establish our boundaries here, like if the group said we're going to shut down traffic in and out of a hospital because we're really going to get people's attention, what would you say to that? Even though it's going to cost countless lives? Do you really? I mean, where I draw the line is where there's a very reasonable expectation that you are going to kill people with your actions. That's where I just don't think it's okay.

0:20:26 Ishmael: It why not well okay well we got to look realistically because one thing on Dogma Debate what they said was uh when the LA marathon comes out they shut down traffic when obama comes out they shutdown traffic you know so I I mean I'm not like I said I'm talking about tackling guys who are trying to bring the heart for the transplant like no you are being you are obviously being cruel but if they're literally inconveniencing people well, I don't know how much, and realistically in the world we live in, I don't know how much they can stop, like literally you're arrested, like, okay, there are these black people standing outside the hospital stopping ambulances from coming in, what's that, 10 minutes, and the cops are gonna arrest you, like that's all I'm saying, they're just like bring it, I don't, I'm not saying stop ambulances, I'm not saying hijack stuff, jack ambulances and stop people from getting to the, I just literally mean bringing, uh, like just putting their voice out there. Cause I honestly don't think as black people, we can do much. So they talk about stopping traffic.

0:20:49 Thomas: Yeah, good call. All. No, I, well, but I'm, I'm trying to establish the line. I'm I get

0:21:39 Ishmael: I don't know how long that can go. A cop will come and you're either arrested or you're dead.

0:21:40 Thomas: It. I get it. Well,

0:21:44 Ishmael: So they're, they're not there. They are not there with, they are not a militia. If it was militias with like guns and they're stopping people, I'll say, whoa, relax. But if they're just literally citizens saying we're going to get in the way of society, of the society that moves, you know, without even thinking about us and they're going gonna get arrested. And I guess maybe I should make that clear. I don't think it's that much of an inconvenience because the minute a cop is called, you're arrested. Black people, they could just shoot them and they'll get off. Oh, well, they kind of went for my gun and whatever. And I put a gun in his mouth and killed him, but it's like, you know, so standing in front of a hospital, I don't think will inconvenience anyone that much more than like 10 minutes. Okay.

0:21:45 Thomas: I just want to draw a distinction.

0:22:30 Thomas: Okay. Well I w I was trying to get to the, to kind of the heart of it. It'd be, I guess you're taking a more of a practical, like it doesn't end up doing so-and-so, which I mean that that's fine.

0:22:34 Ishmael: Yeah. Okay. But But you Could ask me that again. You're basically saying eve, okay, like in, in your bait, like, because I'm, maybe I'm using that as a cop-out, you're saying should they be comfortable, um, That

0:22:50 Thomas: I I'm sure I'm to get from you what, what extent you're, you're comfortable with. Yeah. Like, and, and not trying to get out of it by saying, well, it won't end up really being that. I'll just give you this and we can move on from it if you want. My line personally is I'm very sympathetic to and agree with you that there's anger. They have every right to try to cause a disruption to get their attention going. And I also am unsympathetic to the arguments that are like sort of chaos theory related. Well, what if, you know, you never know if the next Einstein was about to be like, I don't care about a tangentially actually possible thing.

I don't, so don't try to paint me with that. I'm just saying if there were a protest where there's a very reasonable, very reasonable expectation that people's lives will be lost as a result of your protest, I don't think two wrongs make a right. I don't think, especially two lethal wrongs, you know, and, you know, who knows if you're very reasonably expecting to cost lives, who knows who those lives are? I mean, it could be anybody. It could be it could be the biggest support supporter of Black Lives Matter. Could be an indiscriminate loss of lives really scares me. And I can't really personally,

0:22:51 Ishmael: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:24:04 Thomas: I mean, I can't really get behind that.

0:24:04 Ishmael: But I I Think that's like you would have to craft a perfect scenario, like But

0:24:13 Thomas: No, I don't think you would. I think if you got enough supporters to just shut down a hospital or how about this? They say, well,

0:24:18 Ishmael: How Long Could they without guns, like Black Lives Matters, or they're not a militia. If we started talking about militias and talking about people with guns stopping people. But if you're just talking about, I'm a human being and I'm going to sacrifice myself with arrest by just standing in the way of traffic, I think whatever happens from that is not that.

0:24:41 Ishmael: But that's kind of what I mean. If they were armed, I'll say, okay, okay. If you're going to start basically holding hostages and stuff, that's a different scenario. But I don't think what people, black, especially, well, I don't even say black.

0:24:38 Thomas: Traffic's fine. Yeah, yeah, no, I get that.

0:24:54 Ishmael: Anyone.

0:24:53 Thomas: Well, let me let me

0:24:55 Ishmael: Go ahead. Go ahead, go ahead.

0:24:55 Thomas: Just cut you off by saying if but then if that's how you're thinking of it, then I would say there isn't, in the circumstance, a reasonable expectation that you're going to cost lives. So then in that case, if that's how your perception of what would happen, then I agree with you. I'm saying if there is a reasonable expectation that you are going to kill somebody, then I can't, I'm just not in favor of that. I don't think that taking another. So if you're getting by it by saying, I don'T think that this will cost lives, that's fine. Then we're in agreement. But if you'RE saying, no, it's okay that this is probably going to to cost like three lives, but then the police will stop. Then I'm not, then I don't agree with you. That's all.

0:25:10 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well. Okay. I I just don't think if, if people are actively trying to cost lives, then yeah, that's an issue, and that's an issue that can be debated on some. I, I, I am not for that, you know, I'm not for like. Hey, if you cost three people's lives, I mean, come on, how many people have died from the cops? I'm not saying that, but I'm just saying like, yeah

0:25:45 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, because there's no end to that. Like there's no end that calculation.

0:25:54 Ishmael: Exactly, it's just, just terrorism, it's just terrorism and, and no, I'm not talking about being and maybe burning out buildings can be seen as terrorism too, I'm sure it is, but I don't, I mean, as long as you're not, all, I don't care if people are rioting and they burn down a fucking building, I'm sorry, in fact I, I just don't hey, I'm yeah, I mean, but yeah, as far as costing lives and stuff, and, um, if they stood in front of a hospital and said no one's coming through until you guys, you know, we want to meet with whatever, they're never going to meet with anyone, they're going to be arrested in like 10 minutes and

0:25:57 Thomas: Yeah and that's all I'm saying. So the only line I'm trying to draw yeah, it is. Yeah hopefully everybody has insurance when Ishmael's around. Yeah, fair enough.

0:26:34 Thomas: Right.

0:26:35 Ishmael: You know, it's just trying to bring it, it's, it's just a spectacle of it really, because they're really not doing much

0:26:40 Thomas: I get it. No, I I get that part. Yeah. No, I'm with you on that part, so I think we've covered it. I think I understand it. So, no, I think We both said what we want, and I think we more or less agree.

0:26:42 Ishmael: Yeah, okay I think I won that debate anyway, checkmate, Ishmael. Yeah, pretty much, minus the burning shit, hey. I was in The Firestarter as a kid, she was my hero, so, you know, what can I do, you don't know, Firestarter, Drew Barrymore, as a kid's Stephen King novel, Jesus, you're a child.

0:27:00 Thomas: So, what think I was? See, there you go. I must be younger than you. I don't know what that is. No. Oh, well, I do remember E.T., and she was really small on that. So I'm sure it came sometime after that.

0:27:20 Ishmael: It's Carrie, but a little before Carrie, I think or after, no, I think it was after. Anyway, go ahead, Bill.

0:27:22 Thomas: Okay. Well, yeah, I probably wasn't allowed to watch whatever that was. So, but do you think things have changed at all? Well, you talked about, you know, you growing up and seeing these shows or whatever, seeing the media and feeling like, oh, I'm a part of that and then realizing you're not a part OF it. With how much black black entertainment and black entertainers, and you can name endless ones, you know, celebrities, LeBron, Oprah, whoever it is, like so, not

0:27:53 Ishmael: Cosby. He's a shining light, and

0:27:58 Thomas: A good example. But with how much these role models have come up, you Know, in recent times, there's a lot more, not saying this is perfect, don't catch me trying to, you Now, paint a perfect picture of what's going on. But do you think it's changed it all? Like, do you think that has helped the fact that we have so many prominent and very successful black role models in the media? Is that going to make a difference down the road? Do you think?

0:28:29 Ishmael: The only reason why I would say no is because the gap.

0:28:32 Thomas: Because of Bill Cosby?

0:28:33 Ishmael: Exactly, he just, just ruined it for everybody I never liked The Cosby Show, by the way, I was, I hated that show as a kid because I'm

0:28:35 Thomas: He undid it. You guys were this close. Oh, okay. Oh man, man. I loved it.

0:28:42 Ishmael: Like, we don't, there's no doctors and the lawyer, because the dad was a doctor, the mom was a lawyer, I felt that it's just like crap, I just couldn't buy into it, I was a poor kid who didn't have much of an imagination, but somehow I saw myself in The Breakfast Club, go go figure. Anyway, like so, it would be if the gap between the poor and the rich wasn't getting larger.

0:29:05 Ishmael: You know, if it stayed the same as before, then you would say, so as rich as Beyonce and Jay-Z and like people are, there's just not a lot of opportunities, not just for black people, even though it's higher or less likely for black people, but for white people as well.

So the gap continues to stretch, and there's less middle class, and I mean, if things would have stayed still, yes, it would have been like, oh, there's good representation, and you guys are still in the same position that you were 20, 30 years ago, then yeah, you have more of an opportunity, but it's hard for those, for the few, uh, Beyonces and Jay-Z's, and, um, black TV shows, too, you can inspire kids as much, much as you want, and crime's going down, you know, crime's going down around juveniles and stuff like that, even juveniles of color, even though, you know, we have the meme of Chicago, even though that's a terrible thing, but it's just are there opportunities to get into college colleges is getting more expensive. I mean the college I went to was like 30,000 when I went there and now it's like 40,000 so I don't know it's like just

0:28:49 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Hmm, yeah.

0:30:17 Ishmael: Just in America in general, there's less chances to advance from one class to the next.

0:30:16 Thomas: You know, that's funny, because I really didn't even want to bring this discussion into it, but just because what you're saying sounds so much like the line between people debating, is Bernie better for black people, or is Hillary better for black people? I gotta just ask you, what's your view on that?

0:30:37 Ishmael: I hate Hillary Clinton. I'd like to, well, just from her past.

0:30:39 Thomas: Okay, But you did reference the three strikes stuff earlier and and that kind of thing

0:30:44 Ishmael: Yeah, I mean, just for her past and stuff. I mean... But Bernie... I think Bernie is better for the country. And I think he has been better for the country in general. I don't know how much he could get done. I saw someone... I wish I knew where the meme was from. But they broke down what he could getting done. And they've made it seem not that absurd because I know, that's kind of the thing, like, oh, he can say whatever he want, it would never happen, but I think he's dragging Hillary to the left, and even Black Lives Matters, he's making that be an issue. Hillary's starting to uh renege on a lot of her policies, that, well, Bill Clinton's policies, I shouldn't say her policies, but policies that she championed. She went out and stumped for him. She wasn't just like, you know, a silent

0:30:45 Thomas: Yeah, right. Right right yeah yeah yeah Well,

0:31:27 Ishmael: Uh, uh, contributor. She was actively trying to push Congress to do things that the Republicans weren't even trying to do. So, um, I don't want to vote for Hillary. I want to vot for Bernie, and I don't know how much he could get done, but I think I love that the left is being pulled left and the right is being pooled, So right. I think in the end we're going to get the, uh, independence.

0:31:44 Thomas: The right's being pulled the right is being pulled, God knows where, because no one knows what Trump is like. He could end up being like, who knows, it's weird, but yet, well, yeah,

0:31:53 Ishmael: That's true. That's real. Isn't it weird that he's probably the best candidate, as far as me, being a liberal, he's, I don't want anyone, I don't want Ben Carson, I definitely don't want Cruz, Rubio, I don't even know, he's, he's still religious, he still, he, he'll get some stuff done that will be bad, but Trump, I think a lot of his stuff is all talk, yes,

0:32:15 Thomas: I uh I Strongly, strongly dislike living in a country where Trump is president.

0:32:20 Ishmael: Yes, I agree, I agree, yeah.

0:32:23 Thomas: It's true when you look at it on paper, because he has such a history of being pretty liberal, despite now reneging on all of that. But you might be right. Honestly, maybe he gets in there and he's just a guy who wants power And as a result, he doesn't have a strong like pro-right agenda all the time. It could be, you know, it could be if if I could I could tell you that it could be like what, you Know, if we could run a friggin world simulator and see like what's what is the country look like in four years after Cruz Rubio or Trump? You might be right, man.

0:32:32 Ishmael: Yeah he's not a Christian, I mean, he's not evangelical anyway. Yeah yeah

0:33:06 Thomas: It might it might not be that bad, but you never know. Know, it's also a very big if factor. It's very big variable because you just don't know what he's going to be. You know, he's like some sort of weird loose cannon. It could be fine. It could be horrible. I really don't. He could ban the First Amendment like he's talked about with his libel laws and all that. Like, who knows, man?

0:33:13 Ishmael: Yeah mm-hmm yeah I wish He'd been the Second Amendment, but that's another story. But go

0:33:31 Thomas: That won't happen. But since I have you and since I talked to Noah and Heath so recently at length, do you mind if I ask you a more specific to black voters kind of questions.

0:33:34 Ishmael: Ahead, yeah. You can ask me whatever you want, you can be like, hey, you like white girls, black girls, whatever, whatever, you wanna talk about, yeah.

0:33:46 Thomas: So do you, I'm very curious about, and I don't know, you know, I don'T know if you even know, because being a black atheist, I DON'T know how, you KNOW, what kind of, what your crowd is that you run with, but when it comes to black voters, do you think that they will be affected, or do you think they will possibly come around to Bernie's message as his name gets more out there? Or do you think, because they're right now, overwhelmingly black voters are going to Hillary. And a lot of people, a lot OF Bernie supporters say, oh, they just don't know Bernie. They just don'T know whatever. And then I've heard black commentators say that's very condescending. You know, I've heard black comentators say, you know, we know what we're doing. Don't, don't tell us we're we're voting for Hillary because we don't know Bernie. What's your take on all that?

0:34:32 Ishmael: I've actually found, at least, well, I'll start with the black atheist movement, they are overwhelmingly, at least, well, it's all anecdotal, right, but I'm in a few groups, one has about 7,000 black atheists, and um, they are pro Bernie, most people who seem um involved and are listening to the issues are pro Bernie. I think with black Christian people, which are the majority, because black atheists are meaningless as far within the black community, as far as the numbers go, um, Hillary's more religious, religious, Hillary is like, and I'm sure the pastors are pushing for her. She, even though she, I don't, I think she's as unreligious as Bernie is, to be honest. She said once they asked her what's her favorite book, she'd said the Bible. I'm like, who in the, who thinks she reads the Bible? Nobody thinks she reads politics. And, like, she's a, you know, she reads the Art of War. You know what I mean? That's her, probably her favorite books.

But I think it's, I don't know, know, I, I think black people are going with the Clintons because the Clinton's have this meme of being for the black people, even though personally they are not, they have destroyed the black community, but I think, uh, like they used to say Bill Clinton was the first black uh president, you

0:34:45 Thomas: Sure, sure, sure. Hmm. Yeah, probably.

0:35:52 Thomas: Yeah.

0:35:52 Ishmael: Know, because he went on Arsenio Hall and played the motherfucking sax, like, whatever that means, it's funny because I said to black people, when was the last time we gave a fuck about the sacks? It's the 90s, like, what's this, 1930? Like, who cares about a black man playing the sacks, never mind a white guy, but um, so, but, but I think he's, uh, kind of captured, uh, you know, Bill Clinton, he's like, uh, as ugly as he is, they think he's smooth and he's the man, and he's somehow well,

0:35:53 Thomas: Yeah that's funny.

0:36:19 Thomas: Well, then it's almost, it sounds like you're agreeing with that then that, that, uh, that maybe black voters are, are mistaken, you know, maybe they, they don't, it sounds Like, you Know, you're saying I

0:36:30 Ishmael: I think all voters, the average American voter is mistaken, it's not you know, what I mean, like, it's, it's like black voters are as mistaken about Clinton as everyone is about Trump and whoever else, you know?

0:36:34 Thomas: Know No, that's true. That's a good call. I'm glad you're saying that because that makes a lot of sense. It's funny because I have seen some commentators say like, this is so condescending toward black voters. And then you're right. It's like, well, I kind of think all voters are stupid. So yeah, no, it's white people too. Like, yeah, don't

0:36:54 Ishmael: Yes. Yes, exactly. No, it's not just black people. Everyone's stupid. I'm going to take the family guy approach and make fun of everyone.

0:37:01 Thomas: Get me wrong. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, it's interesting. I'm, I'm I'm a, I'm glad to hear you say that. I think that young people are very pro-Bernie and maybe, I don't know if there's a correlation there with the groups you're in.

0:37:12 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah, that actually would work because the older black people are, the more religious they are. And yeah, I mean, the Clintons, it is just a name they know. No, I'm sure to the average voter in general, but black voters specifically, they know Clinton way more than they know Bernie. You know, I mean, because Clinton was one that at least started to pay attention to the black community.

0:37:30 Thomas: Yeah.

0:37:37 Ishmael: His policies weren't for us. Go ahead. Sorry.

0:37:37 Thomas: What do you think about, oh, sorry, I never, I wasn't Sure if you were done, but what do you think, does it make you more encouraged about Bernie when you see the pictures of him being there from the beginning, you know, from 1963, being with the, you know, does it not, does, well, okay, well that's interesting. This is interesting data, you know, so that doesn't really affect you. Doesn't.

0:37:40 Ishmael: No, no.

0:37:54 Ishmael: I don't care. I get. Go head. Sorry, man.

0:38:04 Ishmael: And I mean, it's well, because I don't know, like because remember when, you know, the guy from the Congressional Black Caucus, John Lewis, the black dude, when he endorsed Clinton and he said, I didn't see, he was like, I was the head of SNCC. I was this and that. And I didn't see Bernie there. And I'm thinking, who the fuck cares what you saw? And I get he's a civil rights hero and all that. But I'm like, first of all, what I just care what you have done for black people lately. And I get the civil rights movement.

0:38:30 Thomas: Okay.

0:38:31 Ishmael: I mean I'm not trying to downplay shit and I'm not saying no it does feel good. I mean I see people post that a lot. I just in me I would never post that because I don't, I I get that in a way it's good, but maybe I'm too cynical where I'm like that doesn't mean he's who he is, that means that's who he is now. There are a lot of civil rights people or people who were for something before, and you know, once you become a politician, who knows what happens.

0:38:54 Ishmael: You know, who knows what you start to do. So I, I guess there's something for a lot of people, but for me I don't care, I honestly don't give a fuck, but but I don't want to dismiss what he did, I but I also don't want to dismiss what, I'm not dismissing it, but I'm just saying as far as me voting, I don't give a fuck, well.

0:38:54 Thomas: Yeah, that's true. Hmm. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if what's that? Sure. Yeah, that's fair enough. I wonder maybe maybe a lot of people feel that way and maybe maybe the black community feels that way. And when when a bunch of white people like me see those photos and think, oh, this should make a big difference in black voters. Maybe maybe it doesn't. I don't know. That's interesting. It's all anecdotal, but

0:39:29 Ishmael: You know what's funny, you say that, I think it should, to those, um, low information voters, not, not to be dismissive of them, but I think that should, because they're not, because I don't know, know how many people in general are about the policies and are about you know, I think maybe within the black community that, that probably should help him, because there are certain groups in the black committee that, or just in, in America in general, oh, civil rights, he was for the civil rights, really, because that has been so, like the civil rights is such a defining moment to people, because it's like, it's less negative, even though it was a terrible time go ahead, yeah that's

0:39:30 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah.

0:40:02 Thomas: Well, for me, it's more like he has been consistent for so long. I think that's what it is for me. But I do, I do understand, absolutely understand what you're saying when it's like, well, what is, what are his actual policies doing now? Because if it turned out that his policies now weren't doing shit for black people, I get like, that makes sense. That's a valid, you know, that's a valid way to look at it. Maybe that is how people are looking at it. But one thing I really like in Bernie, and I'll stop talking about it after that, because like I said, I already did the whole show with Noah and Heath.

0:40:08 Ishmael: True, yeah yeah you just did it last week, yeah, or

0:40:33 Thomas: But well, we'll see.

0:40:33 Ishmael: Not last week because who knows when, yeah

0:40:34 Thomas: Yeah. But I just, I do, I like consistency and I like the character and the fact that I don't see a lot of, I don't see a lot of saying whatever to whoever's listening. You know, I see Bernie with a consistent message. Maybe I don't even agree with some of it. Like, I don't actually agree with free college. I think I've said that. I don't, I think, I think we should reduce the cost or make, like, certain, like maybe make state schools cheaper or give interest-free loans.

But I think if we make it free, it'll end up being like with healthcare where the colleges rip off the government and, you know, like, you don't, I mean, it will end up where sure we're giving will the government I'll pay tuition for you, but then the colleges will just keep jacking that up and rip off. The government will be like medic, uh, health insurance where they just, they, they just totally rip everybody. Everybody's ripping everybody off. That's what I fear, in that. But anyway, long story short, I just really like the consistency and I like the fact that he doesn't, I don't think he's a liar. Like I think he is the most honest guy out there. And people say that about Trump. It's like, are you kidding me? He's incredibly dishonest. He says whatever he feels

0:40:51 Ishmael: Yeah yeah yeah

0:41:49 Thomas: Like at the time. And then someone will say, here, I have your literal words in front of you where you said this. He's like nah, I didn't say that. So all right, we should get off politics, uh, because it's, it's been so tempting to cover it all the time. Cause it's really, yeah, but, uh. But actually we should probably wrap it up. I've taken a lot of your time. Uh, Ishmael, I really appreciate you coming on. Uh. Is there anything else that I cut you off or that you wanted to get out before I just decide I'm ending the show?

0:41:50 Ishmael: Exactly yeah I know no I'm, no, it's been great and I appreciate you giving me the chance to come on here and have some fun. So, uh, no, I appreciate it, you I've said all I could say. I'm sure I'm gonna get, uh, some, uh, with the whole burning shit down. So I can't wait, cannot wait.

0:42:25 Thomas: That's awesome. Yeah. It's definitely a different kind of feel the burn. Um, but yeah, angry black rant,

0:42:36 Ishmael: I should use that, Field of Burn yeah

0:42:38 Thomas: Angry Black Rant is the show. Look it up on iTunes, I'm sure is the best way, right? And you have a site. Do you do a blog in addition to the podcast or do you check

0:42:41 Ishmael: Yeah iTunes, Angry Black Rent, yeah yeah I haven't written anything in a while, but I'm getting back into that now. I'm writing something now, but yeah, angryblackrent.com. I have a blog as well, I have a couple probably like three or so

0:42:55 Thomas: Them out? And it's awesome that you're putting your voice out there, man. I'm really happy to see that the show has been successful and keep it up.

0:42:57 Ishmael: Yeah, yeah all right, and can I just say, and I just wanted, wanted to thank you, Thomas, because you, like, no, no bullshit, and like you really kind of kicked me in the ass and really inspired me to do the podcast. And it's been a great, it's just been a great experience since I started it. So I just wanted to think you, and I'm glad I could at least come on here and thank you after the fact, so thanks

0:43:24 Thomas: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. It means a lot to hear that. I'm glad to hear. Hopefully, uh, hopefully I keep my batting record, you know, good so that I don't encourage anybody to do a podcast that's terrible. You know, like if, if I get people, the next, yeah, the next guy I encourage, it's like so bad that everyone's like, oh man, you're back to even, man, your back to zero. No, I really appreciate that. That's nice to hear. And, uh yeah, I keep up the good work. It's awesome. It is. And it's, oh, something I didn't say. It sounds good. That That's something that, you know, is not always easy. Like the, the quality sounds good. The, uh, uh. The, I like the music. I like, it's good. You got all the, all the stuff right. So good job on that.

0:43:25 Ishmael: Yeah so just guys doing a KKK podcast thank you Thomas yeah thanks man, I appreciate that, all right, cool, man, later.

0:44:08 Thomas: All right. Check it out, everyone. And Ishmael, uh... Thanks for joining me and we'll talk again soon.

0:44:23 Thomas: All right, that's my show. Thanks so much for listening. Thank you again to Ishmael. It was a lot of fun talking to him. Great guy, great podcast, good stuff. So I guess that's all I need to say for today's episode. I will see you guys on Thursday. Support the show at patreon.com/atheist. Ooh, please write an iTunes review. Making good progress on that. I very much appreciate everyone who's written a review, giving it five stars. Ours. It helps the show a ton, helps it get noticed. If we can build the community more, it just benefits everybody because we get more discussion going, more exposure, and it's just good for all around, for you, for me, for listeners. It makes a better show. So please write that review. Thanks to everyone who has. And follow me on Twitter while you're at it, at SpeakAtheism.

0:45:09 Thomas: Why not? I hardly give out the Twitter ever, but at Speak Atheism, I tweet from time to time. I tweet it, interact with people and stuff like that, but it's not too much volume. So don't worry about your timeline getting, you know, taken up by my tweets. All right. Thank you so much for listening and see you next time.