AS222: The N Word, with Ishmael Brown

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:31 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. I'm your host, Thomas Smith, and this is episode 222! Pretty cool. 222. I should do some sort of weird celebration or something. Numerology. What does it all mean? Anyway, 222 means an excellent guest. I am really excited. We got an action-packed two-parter for you guys. Two nice, juicy parts. Lots of different areas for discussion, so it should be good. And let's just get to it.

0:01:18 Thomas: Joining me back on the show, let's see, since August, is Ishmael Brown. So nice to talk to you.

0:01:25 Ishmael: What up, what up?

0:01:28 Thomas: Yeah, and I don't know if, you know, I don't know if you know this or if people know this, or whatever, but Ishmael has a podcast that might have, I might have had something to do with, you now, maybe helping, getting some motivation to start. I don't, just some little thing. I don't know if you should mention.

0:01:45 Ishmael: Okay, can I actually say it? Okay. So I got a podcast, Angry Black Rant, and I started it because I, for one, I listened to Thomas's show. You were interviewing a black Mormon and you said more than once, there aren't many black podcasters out there. And you said, maybe you should do that. And you were talking to a guy named Rondell and, And it just was a kick in the seat. And I was like, okay, I need to do this. And not only was that enough. Um, so I wrote you and I said, thank you for doing that. I appreciate you just kind of talking to him about getting a podcast started. And when I wrote you, you said, hey, come on. And that was enough to really kick me in the pants. Cause it's like, you can, you know, I'm setting up and I'm like, oh yeah, I'll start a podcast sooner, more than

0:01:50 Thomas: Yep. Yep, yeah, yeah. Someday.

0:02:31 Ishmael: Later, and then the minute you said come on, I said, okay, I have to have a podcast out within a week of me recording. So I, like, like I said, when I go on other shows and they say, how did you get in a podcast in? I'm like, Atheistically Speaking, Thomas Smith, he was, I mean, you really, uh, really just forced me out there and for, for good reason, you know, because what you said was true, there aren't a lot of, uh, people of color who have podcasts in the atheist movement. So, yeah, so,

0:02:32 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, that's the best.

0:03:01 Thomas: I just want to stipulate, like, my advice to most people is don't start a podcast, but

0:03:06 Ishmael: Exactly,

0:03:06 Thomas: For Ishmael in particular, if you're someone who's, no, I'm just teasing. There's way too many podcasts, but hey, what are you going to do? But for Ishmael, this was,

0:03:14 Ishmael: Oh, I I don't try to influence anyone to start a podcast. I'm like, nah, you probably shouldn't do it, you should probably write a book or something, especially

0:03:21 Thomas: Yeah. Now that, now that you're one of us, just, yeah, just tell everybody, nah, you want to be the only one.

0:03:24 Ishmael: Another black guy. I'm not, oh no, no, no, they they don't like black people, exactly, they call me token, so you just keep it moving, buddy. Well,

0:03:31 Thomas: No, but, but that was, I thought that was especially like a niche that wasn't, you know, really that I knew of a black atheist podcast anyway. And, and I would say your podcast doesn't seem too explicitly atheist theme. Like there's, there's a lot more more going on, I'd say, then. Would you call it even more a political podcast or an atheism podcast?

0:03:54 Ishmael: Yeah, I guess I would call it political, I kind of, I, I, I start to say, uh, well I do say, uh, through the eyes of an angry black atheist, so kind of gives me lead way to kind of talk about anything. Initially it was going to be an atheist podcast, but then I had a co-host who wasn't an atheist, uh, she was, yeah, she was, uh, she wasn't Christian, but she believed in a lot of bullshit, like, to be honest, a lot, lot of woo, a lot of like reiki and and I'm so she kind of

0:04:03 Thomas: Right. Oh, really?

0:04:22 Thomas: Is this like a typical like L.A. kind of thing? Yeah.

0:04:23 Ishmael: Exactly exactly, she is L.A., she whenever she has problems, she burns sage and all this other bullshit that means nothing and I make fun of her oh, I'm sure she's gluten free, I'm short, she's gluten free because it's L.A. But no, I mean, but when I started off, I wanted it strictly atheist, and then I had her, and now I kind of, like, is, I, I mean, I want to focus on religion because I'm not just an atheist. I'm an anti-theist kind of guy. So I'm trying to focus more on that. But yeah, it's kind of anything, really. It's like anything but seeing through me, who happens to be a

0:04:26 Thomas: Yeah. Oh geez. Don't get her started on her diet, right? There's got to be something going on there. Yeah. Something.

0:05:03 Thomas: Yeah,

0:05:03 Ishmael: Black atheist kind of thing.

0:05:04 Thomas: I mean, you got to focus on what you care about. Otherwise, wise, people aren't going to, you know, people aren't gonna find it compelling if you're trying to do stuff for any reason other than this is what I really want to talk about, you know, then. But so now that you've you've gone through the grace period, see, that's why, that's what I had to wait. You know, I had to give you a few months to make sure the project didn't explode or like you didn't, you know, you didn'T turn out to.

0:05:09 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:05:26 Ishmael: Or I wasn't just terrible. You're like, hey, Ishmael, stop telling people I influence you to put out that crap.

0:05:29 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. I needed a little leeway, like just just to be able to disavow, like if I needed to, like no, what? I could take off those episodes of my feed. Like, no, those just didn't happen. Or I'll replace them with something. I don't know. No, but that didn't happened. The podcast is great. It really seems like it's taken off. And so, if you want to talk a little bit more about it, feel free to take the time here. Let people know kind of what your philosophy is, what you, maybe an example of some of the things you like to talk about and give people an idea for the show.

0:05:44 Ishmael: Exactly.

0:06:05 Ishmael: OK, I mean, the show's basically just I just we just cover anything that kind of kind of pisses me off in a way. Like it's called Angry Black Rant. And it's funny because when I was first on here, you were like, you don't seem angry. And I guess and I even still have listeners who say you're not necessarily angry, but you get really excited about things. You get really intense. But I do get angry and I am angry. I guess I just have such a I don't have a deep brogue. You know, I don't have I have this kind of high voice, so it doesn't sound angry.

0:06:35 Thomas: Well, It's, it's there's a difference between getting, getting angry or getting built up on something which is good, and then just always sounding annoyed or like, because you don't, you, you're, you're very relaxing to listen to. You know, I think there's different kinds of anger people can have. There's you know what I mean? So that's probably why you're getting that. You sound you sound pleasant, but then you get angry on a rant. That's great. That works best.

0:06:52 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So but yeah, so it's basically about that. We have a segment called the Fuck Boy of the Week, and that's always the funnest. That's the most popular. Like, we pick out someone who is just the most despicable person I could find for this week, and I go at him as hard as I can and just, uh, try to convey to the audience why the fuck he's a fuck boy. And, uh, people send fuck boys to me. Scalia was a fuck boy before he died. You know, like yeah, so but, um, he was a fucking boy after he died, but I was like, okay, I don't need to, I don't want a fuckboy, that's everybody's fuckboy, but anyway. So Thomas and I were talking about the, the latest fuckboy, probably this week's fuck boy is gonna be that guy who said, uh, uh, this guy tells this, uh, white old guy who looks like he's in his 80s, tells a black waitress, um, "I want to take you where I hung your grandfather." Like, yeah.

0:07:27 Thomas: Oh, yeah. Jeez.

0:07:56 Ishmael: Just, yeah, he's a fuck boy for real. So anyway, so we have that segment, and then we basically try and get into, uh, other things, topical issues that, uh, just are interesting, and just have a conversation. It's usually me, and I had a co-host, now it's just me and a guest host, and, uh, yeah, so that's basically what it's about. It's like, you know, me and someone else, and we're talking about issues in the news, current events, and, uh, being intense with it, but still trying to have fun at the same time it's always about being funny. Knock ahead

0:08:27 Thomas: Do you think you're, oh, sorry to interrupt, but have you, have you gotten feedback that you're sort of filling a, like I said, a voice that wasn't there before? Are you, are you getting black atheists interested? What's your, what's your audience, do you think, mostly?

0:08:31 Ishmael: Yeah we do get black atheists, and the funny thing is, we, I like, the majority of my show probably is white atheists, but they're also white atheists who say I haven't gotten this perspective before. So I do get people who say, wow, like, you know, I haven't gotten the non-white, or people of color, or African-American perspective as far as atheism and news stories that, you know, other, I try to find story because I'm a huge podcaster fan. So I listen to you. I listen to you on Comedy Shoeshine. I listen to um, you know, Scathing, and I listen too, um, uh, Tom and Cecil, uh, Cog This. But I, so I try not to do, uh, topics that you guys do, cause I don't know, I just feel like, let me, and you guys don't do the same ones. I mean, I listen to you guys and I try and find obscure ones, so it's like, cause it's already from a different, from perspective, so in a way I guess I could do the same, but I honestly don't think me being black changed it, especially with you, Thomas.

I feel like you and I agree a lot, you know, not all the time, but I feel like you and I agree a lot. And even Tom and Cecil, um, and I guess all the guys I listen to, really, we were kind of on the same thing. And maybe I bring race in it, in my perspective as a black man, but I try to find stories that aren't necessarily things other podcasts are

0:08:49 Thomas: Hmm. Right. Yep. Mm-hmm. Right.

0:10:09 Ishmael: Covering. And you're already doing that on your own anyway. You make a point to say, like, everyone's talking about this, I kind of don't want to, I'd rather talk about something more interesting

0:10:09 Thomas: Right. Yeah, I think that's, that's interesting. I, it's definitely different ways you can go. I think you explored it well there. I mean, you can either cover all the, you know, do all the same thing, but try to do it better, try to different or take a different angle. And, and, and it sounds like you and I have taken like two different, different angles. Cause for me, I didn't want to ever be a news show, but sometimes it's hard to resist. I meantime, sometimes when there's something going on that's so big you got to cover it. But I still didn't want to be the show that's like, here's what happened. I would be like, okay, here is an event. Now, let me break it down or give you what my take of it is. All I knew was I didn't wanted to be like a headline show. That's all.

0:11:00 Thomas: But that being said, it sounds like you found a different approach too, which is pick the the different stories or pick your fuckboys in a way that not everybody's covering, which is awesome. So what that tells listeners is that they're going to get a different, they're not going to be hearing the same crap over and over if they listen to all these shows, which is good. I'm actually, I'm glad of that because I don't want it to be where we're all covering the same thing and then people are like,

0:10:33 Ishmael: Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Exactly And

0:11:30 Thomas: Two episodes in the same week.

0:11:30 Ishmael: You always You never cover the same stuff. I mean, that's why, I mean, yeah, I love listening to your show first, because I know it's going to be, it's not going to been like, like, oh, the topic of the week that everyone's covering, you know, so and that's what I try to yeah but, but even the biggest ones, I feel like you, you try and avoid for the most part, you know, and then you're like, okay, it's so big, I guess I should talk about it but

0:11:32 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, unless unless it's like really big. Yeah. So yeah, it just depends. Yeah, I mean, when there's a terrorist attack that kills, you know, over a hundred people, like I got, it's hard to not at least address it, you Know, but other than that, yeah. Well, I think we've given each other enough love to last a few more months. But so maybe we'll try to get into it a little bit because it was an interesting topic. So, I was listening to Eli on Dogma Debate, right? Is that how we brought this up? I can't remember. But I'm a big fan of Eli. I like listening to him and

0:11:57 Ishmael: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I hate him. No, I'm joking. I like, he likes, what really

0:12:30 Thomas: Yeah, I know. I love him. You know, it's funny. I'm amazed. Some people don't like him. I don't get it personally, but I do get people who are like, stop having him on. And I'm like, no. Well, Well, to be fair, okay, you've probably already found this. Sorry to digress again. You probably already find this. It's so hard to judge because you get comments. You just hear the loudest people, you know? So if you get one loud comment saying like, or I get one that's like, oh, I don't have Ishmael on, you know, he sucks. There's probably thousands of people listening going, oh. I love this. And then you see one message that's, like, I'm not a fan of Ishmaels. Oh, I like black people or something, you know, whatever it is, you'll see.

0:12:40 Ishmael: Yeah yeah send me their email address, please. They will come home from work, and I'll be sitting on their couch, like, what was that?

0:13:10 Thomas: No, that was an exaggerated example. I don't get that. My listeners are pretty smart. Yeah. But there'll be people with opinions where you're like that, man, that really like you don't like Eli. How do you not? I love Eli. I mean, weird. And then, but then you can never judge. I don'T know if you get this with stuff you talk about, but people always give you their opinions and it's fine. I don't mind hearing feedback, but it's very difficult because I, it's not like I get some voting system where I get to hear from everybody, and then I can determine, okay, this is just some troublemaker that doesn't like Eli, who cares?

0:13:47 Thomas: It's like the loudest ones, you know, the loudEST ones you hear, and you don't know if they're representative.

0:13:27 Ishmael: Yeah yeah yeah but it's. Go ahead, sorry yeah I, I went through that when I had a convert, I, I had a show that was about me saying the word nigga, because I say nigga, and or the n word, whatever the fuck you know, and okay we can, because I had an old show about that, and I had someone say motherfucker, like, someone just like started yelling at me, like, "Yo, stop. Stop being a bitch" and stop Fucking.

0:14:03 Thomas: Oh, we should talk about that. Yeah, go ahead.

0:14:14 Thomas: Wait, okay. Was this a white person or a black person?

0:14:17 Ishmael: It was a black dude. It was the black dude know

0:14:19 Thomas: Really? So he was offended that you used the word.

0:14:22 Ishmael: He was offended that I was even questioning not using it.

0:14:24 Thomas: Oh! Oh! Okay, Okay. Sorry. I misunderstood you. Okay.

0:14:28 Ishmael: Yeah. So well, because I got a lot of I got a lot. Well, I shouldn't say a lot, I don't know, like a few dozen feedback saying, "I love your show, but you say the N word quite often," and I was saying it a lot and I had to think about that before I did the show. I'm like, is it going to just be my voice or should I avoid saying that? Because I know that's a loaded word to a lot of people.

0:14:49 Ishmael: But I use that regularly. I don't use it at work professionally. No one at work knows I ever said the word in my life. They'd probably be surprised. I'm so, I speak, you know, I speaks, you know, respectable, I guess. And so then I had a show about it. And a few people came out like, motherfucker, grow the fuck up and just talk how you talk. Stop caping for these motherfuckers. So it was like, and I, but so it was one of those things where I had to decide. And there was a couple of shows like that. That one show I had where I told a girl to shut the fuck up and she was like, well, you're not a feminist to be talking to me like that. So I had a show about that. Like, am I a feminist? Because I'm very aggressive. And I told this girl to shit the fuck out.

0:14:28 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Huh.

0:15:28 Ishmael: And I know I didn't tell her on the show.

0:15:28 Thomas: Was she a guest or, or just, oh, okay.

0:15:32 Ishmael: I just told her it was my personal life. I dragged on to the show and I was like shit the fucking aggressive with her. She's like, see, you know, the fucking feminist. So I talked about it on the shell in a lot of people.

0:15:33 Thomas: Was it? Oh, oh, gotcha. Gotcha. Well, I don't see, well, how are those things connected really? I mean, if you, I mean I don, I'm not going to defend you. I don't know what she was was saying to warrant that.

0:15:50 Ishmael: Yeah. Now you can defend me. You can defend me.

0:15:53 Thomas: I don't know if she was being totally rational and she was like, well, I just think I should make as much money as, you know, men. And then you're like, shut the I don'T know if it was that.

0:16:01 Ishmael: Know your place. You didn't know.

0:16:04 Thomas: So, it could have, that's all I mean to say. I'm not, I don't know what the context was, but if it's just someone who was saying something stupid and you said that, that doesn' t mean, that doesn't mean you're an anti-feminist.

0:16:08 Ishmael: Yeah, exactly. I was I was being overly sensitive, and everyone said that that was one that everyone came out. Men, women, whoever was like, motherfucker, you can be, you're an asshole, be an asshole to everyone. And you didn't say that. And I said that to her. I'm not saying that because you're a woman. I mean, I'm saying that

0:16:31 Thomas: And she's like, oh, okay, Okay. That makes me feel better. Yeah.

0:16:35 Ishmael: Yeah. And it was, yeah.

0:16:37 Thomas: Well, oh, okay.

0:16:37 Ishmael: And Then I ended up having sex with her, so, you know, it worked out anyway.

0:16:40 Thomas: Well that, that's, that took a turn. Um, I was

0:16:40 Ishmael: Well, That Was what I was working at the whole time anyway.

0:16:45 Thomas: Going to say, is that a, uh, so is that a tactic you'd recommend? Should we go out? Should everybody try that? Yeah.

0:16:46 Ishmael: Yes. Disrespect women? Hey, listen to me, a feminist. Disrespect women is what? Nah. Okay. I'm Joking.

0:16:55 Thomas: This is, I Was going to Say this is getting really MRA.

0:16:56 Ishmael: Okay. I'll choke. I know, I'm joking.

0:17:01 Thomas: No.

0:17:01 Ishmael: I'm choking. I did Sleep with her. It Had Nothing To do With That You

0:17:01 Thomas: Uh, so, but let's, but Let's talk about that because I've found that interesting. Not that, but the N word because actually I think Noah, yeah, that's why I said it like that. Well, and Louis CK, I think has, have you heard his bid on that?

0:17:08 Ishmael: Mean Nigga. I Don't like the phrase "the N-word," to be honest. Oh, Of course, I Love Louis. He Is He is exactly

0:17:19 Thomas: Yeah, he's the greatest. And his whole thing is like, he is like I hate the N-word and he's like, and not nigger, I hate THE N-Word. And then he says, because whenever you say the N Word, you just, you avoided saying it, but you made me think it. You're making me say it in my head without saying it yourself.

0:17:38 Ishmael: Exactly. Yeah, you coward.

0:17:41 Thomas: And yeah, and

0:17:41 Ishmael: You're Making me Say it, but you don't want to say It.

0:17:44 Thomas: I think, I hope, I don't know if this will get back to him, and I dearly hope I'm not misrepresenting him, but I'm pretty sure Noah from Scathing Atheist told me the same thing, that he thinks it's odd. And I think he might have said it on the show, which is why I'm referencing it, but you know, I do a lot of podcasts, so hopefully I'm not confusing it. But he said, or I'll just give the argument, I guess, that why, you know, why do we invent these words in order to not say them, like in order and we give them so much weight that we're afraid of them, which is all fine in principle. And then in practice, you're like, yeah, but I don't really want to say that word.

0:17:44 Ishmael: No, totally.

0:18:22 Ishmael: Yeah.

0:18:22 Thomas: Or at least as a white person, you are like, I'm going to go ahead and err on the side of not saying that word because, you now, it's something, something gets dangerous, you know? You don't want to be lumped in with the racists who are using it in that way, you Know?

0:18:22 Ishmael: Yeah. But But that's what always bothers me about it, because it's like, in in a way, it's almost saying, well, I know black people are overly sensitive, so even though, as a reporter, I'm reporting on someone saying nigger, if I say nigger, they're gonna be like, oh, you're racist. And It's like, no, No, One's gonna say that, huh? White

0:18:52 Thomas: Oh, but they are. Oh, they will get their ass kicked. And to be fair, I don't know the demographics of the people who are doing the ass kicking. For all I know, they could be white people. Yeah, it could be.

0:19:05 Ishmael: Liberals. It's Not Black people who get pissed off. If, did you see the interview with Sam Jackson when he did, uh, Django Unchained, and the guy tries to talk to him about the word nigger, and Sam Jackson's like, say it, say it. And the guy's is like, I don't want to say it. I don't want to say. He's like, well, say it, or

0:19:06 Thomas: Yeah.

0:19:22 Thomas: That's like a scene from a Tarantino movie, he's like, say it, yeah.

0:19:27 Ishmael: Pulp Fiction, right? And then Sam Jackson is like I'm not going to answer your question if you don't say it and the guy said, well then I'll move along and then the guy has a segment where he feels proud that he didn't say it and I'm like, what the, like he's so proud that, he didn't ask him that, yes oh, I gotta send it to you I gotta sent it to yo and I'm just like, because black people in general, listen listen, if you're going to report on it, that word is a thing. I think it's more that it's related to American history. And there's a lot of like, well, there's a lot I don't know, guilt or whatever it may be where I get some people say I don't want to be seen as a racist. But if you ask black people, if your reporter or you're reporting on someone saying it, we're not like, what do they think? We're at the edge of our seat waiting for a

0:19:28 Thomas: Oh, wow, oh, wow, I missed that really? How did I miss this? Okay, I'm looking this up after yeah, after we're done I'm working this up, that's awesome. Well,

0:20:16 Ishmael: White person to say it and then we're gonna jump on them

0:20:17 Thomas: The the only counter to that, I will say is if you're talking about news media, newspaper, whatever, whatever it is, they're, they're not going to say the F word if someone said it. And, you know, I would prefer they just did. I would refer they just did because it gets confusing when it's like, oh, expletive, expletative. And it's, like, did he say, like oh, you ass? Or, you, know, or was the expletives way worse? You know, it gets confused. It's confusing when you just say expletiv. I don't know if he called him something horrible or just said, oh darn it, you a-hole.

0:20:18 Ishmael: Okay Okay. I see what you're saying yeah yeah that's true okay you're

0:20:51 Thomas: But, well, it may be, But it's not always that. See, here's the difference.

0:20:51 Ishmael: Always good at that, okay, you get me to see the other side, okay, Thomas, whatever yeah

0:20:59 Thomas: When we're talking about a station or a publication where they don't care about using profanity, then you should use it. You know, you should treat nigger like any other word that's really bad in that if you're just reporting on someone saying it, you're just reporting their words. Now, if we're taking, you know, 6 p.m. news on ABC, like, they're obviously not going to do that because just same way they won't say the F word.

0:21:07 Ishmael: Yeah yeah but I think they should with nigger, maybe not fuck, but nigger, I feel like, say it, man, man. This is a part of our history. Like, uh, I mean, it was used. So it was used freely for a long time negatively. And I think maybe if we put it in, I, I don't know. I feel like that I do get curse words, but you know, I saw a story and this was a few months ago, um, where they, uh... a father who had a kid who was mentally disabled, they used retarded and he was offended. And the way the news reported it, they said the r-word, and that bothered me to no end, and even a father, when they were interviewing him, he said retarded, but the news now is like the r-word, I'm like, there's no fucking r-world, what are you talking about, now we got the r-world too?

0:21:25 Thomas: Hmm,

0:22:11 Ishmael: Like, you can't say the r word on the news, yeah.

0:22:12 Thomas: Well, that's weird because the weird thing, okay, the weird thing about that is that that's an actual word, like, there's not, there's not a lot of curse words where, oh yeah, it has, like, you know, I guess fuck technically does have a meaning, but most often it's used, not for whatever the actual meaning is, it's it, but retarded is actually a word that you could use for other things, like it, it describes, it means to impair or to slow down, or like, he retarded his progress, or he, you know, something like that. So it's weird to kind of, but you know what? We're all just too scared, man. We don't want to offend anybody, everybody.

0:22:50 Thomas: And I understand the impulse. I have the impulse, I think it comes from a good place, but it does at times get a little ridiculous. We do at times work ourselves into a weird corner of like, I

0:22:27 Ishmael: Yeah yes yeah yeah yeah, I know I know yeah yeah

0:23:03 Thomas: Don't know what I could could say here, you know, and it's, and it shouldn't be that. Shouldn't, okay, in principle, it should at least be, look, if this guy's a good person, if we can tell, if we kan judge, like if I'm looking at, well, not you because, you're black, so you can say the n-word whenever you want, it's fine.

0:23:22 Thomas: When you're looking at me, so let's say I say nigger, and I use it,

0:23:21 Ishmael: And you can not get shot by cops whenever you want, yeah.

0:23:30 Thomas: I use it and I say, look Ishmael says the word nigger and I'm just reporting it. What it should be is people should look at me, do their best judgment to say, is this guy some, you know, KKK racist? Or is he simply using a word because someone else used it? You know, like, that should be, that's the part that I think is missing. Let me know if you agree.

0:23:53 Thomas: Where we're not just, we're Not judging on, is This person actually a racist? And look, maybe I could be, like, maybe I Could be saying some racist stuff. That's something that people people need to make a judgment on, but I don't think they're judging that. All we're doing is reacting viscerally to a word, like, and not just the n-word, like any sort of phrase that people might use. We're placing a lot more importance on, like vernacular versus what is someone actually advocating? You know, what is what is some of the actual positions on stuff? So I think

0:23:50 Ishmael: Yeah yet again yeah yeah

0:24:27 Thomas: We put a little too much focus on that.

0:24:30 Ishmael: Yeah, I agree. I agree.

0:24:31 Thomas: Well, that's easy as that. If you agree, then I guess I'll say the the point stands then, but it's, it's interesting, but people are really afraid, and I can tell you it's... it is scary, like, to, you know, I... okay, one thing that... that is... and maybe we can get into it. With my public school education in California and the age I am, which is... I'm turning 30 this year.

0:24:56 Ishmael: Really get that young.

0:24:58 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. How... what are you, 60 or something? Everyone always says that. I don't know why it's like, I, well, he's old.

0:25:07 Ishmael: You said the way you talk, you and your brother, especially on a comedy show. I swear you guys are

0:25:12 Thomas: He's old as fuck. He he's 36. So, or he's, yeah. Uh, but, and the, but keep in mind, I've been podcasting forever. So when I started, I was like 23. So I've Been, yeah. But anyway, um, yeah, Yeah. Uh, I probably sounded 40 then too. I guess I'm just an old soul. Um, but what, what was I talking about? Oh, well with, with my, yeah, with my California public school education, I mean, I would say, and I'm not even making a judgment on this, I'm just reporting that there was a long, a significant amount of my education

0:25:12 Ishmael: Like 30. That's how I thought you were 36 and he was 39. To be honest, just keep bragging.

0:25:56 Thomas: Was incredibly, you know, like, how do I even phrase this? I learned, well, it's like, I learned about civil rights, I think, every single year, and the civil rights movement of the 60s, every single year that I was in school. It wasn't like, oh, here, this year you cover, you know, what, pre-American history, this Year you go a little further this year. That's not how it worked for me.

0:26:18 Ishmael: I don't know how it

0:26:18 Thomas: For me, for my education, every single year we covered that.

0:26:18 Ishmael: Works for me, but my education, every single year, we've covered that,

0:26:23 Thomas: And we got, I think my generation has a ton of guilt, and probably rightfully so, and fear around offending people because of that. Like, we grew up, at least in California, man, it's probably different in the South.

0:26:23 Ishmael: And we've got, I think, my generation has a ton of skills and probably the right skills to know to be able to go around and do things like that. Like, we grew up, if you're Californian, you're probably gonna

0:26:39 Thomas: Who the hell knows what's going on down there?

0:26:39 Ishmael: Be South, you know what I'm saying?

0:26:41 Thomas: I don't know. But at least, in California we grew with a, look at what we did, like, look how horrible this was, look it, you know, here are the people who broke through, and it's valuable stuff. Again, I'm not making any judgment on this other than to say that we got a lot of that, and I think that's where all the sensitivity, probably, it could have been, well, to be honest, I grew up in the country, so, yeah.

0:26:42 Ishmael: But if you've been California, you grew up with a, this is what we did, like, look at how horrible this was, I don't think that's every public school though to be honest I think you know, I was in a crappy public school go

0:27:05 Thomas: Yeah. Well, I'll let you go, but

0:27:05 Ishmael: Ahead but even the civil rights, the civil rights to me is like, that's the good time in America where, oh, they fought, I don't see, see slavery and what they've done, or not even slavery, post-slavery, lynching, let's just talk about lynching.

0:27:07 Thomas: Yeah, that's the worst.

0:27:19 Ishmael: I mean, I just posted a video that someone sent to me. I mean, I did not know it was this bad and I read books and stuff when

0:27:19 Thomas: Yeah. I didn't either. I think I might've watched that same video. It's horrifying.

0:27:30 Ishmael: It's the video. It's like a PBS video where they talk about, like, the guy, they try to burn him from the feet down and he was climbing a rope, and then they cut his fingers off, so he won't be able. And it's just, in, in, like, this guy who's documenting it, he's going, going to homes where they have pictures of the lynchings in their family photos, like, in, in their postcards, they had postcards of lynchnings, like, oh, look, we burned this nigger, and that's a postcard you can buy for 10 cents at, at the, uh, at the store. I mean, it's just a dark place in America that I don't think a lot of people know about, and um,

0:27:35 Thomas: Oh my God. Oh, oh my God, I think you're right.

0:28:06 Ishmael: Yeah.

0:28:06 Thomas: I mean, we certainly didn't, even in all this, this pro-black, you know, like attempt to, to really reconcile our past that I, you Know, in my curriculum, I did, that is something I I didn't hear about. And, and it's, that's fucking horrifying, man. I, that is the most horrifying thing.

0:28:11 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. The fact that and and they show pictures, isn't it? I mean, they show pictures of groups of people smiling where someone's burning to sit. There is like behind them.

0:28:24 Thomas: I'd say, I'd see, I know it's one thing to think, oh, we had slavery back in the 1860s. You know, like it's 1 thing to thank. Oh, we got rid of it. It's, it was, you know, the time, Pat, whatever. But then you see the reality of the legacy in the South of what that left over, and how recent that is. Oh my god, it is so depressing.

0:28:33 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah, yes. 1900s. Yes, I know.

0:28:48 Thomas: It really, really is horrifying.

0:28:48 Ishmael: Yeah yeah. When I posted it, I said, how are they different than ISIS? I mean, what they're doing, the things that they've done, like they talk about like a pregnant black woman, they They not only lynch her, they cut her belly open so the fetus can fall. I mean, just like we I mean I don't you know, it's super graphic stuff, but that's what was going on. And there's a crowd of people, just regular people, regular good old Christian Americans watching it and cheering and taking postcards homes of the event. And and they took fingers homes as souvenirs.

0:28:57 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's incredible.

0:29:24 Ishmael: Anyway,

0:29:24 Thomas: And the common thread in all this, and I'm not going to say that now, you know, things are better now, for the most part. They're still bad, but like, like, dear God, at least that's not happening. And if it is, I mean, there's no way they would.

0:29:38 Ishmael: Yeah, takes a Lot for atheists to say, dear God, I found myself saying that, too. I said that, like, God bless them, yes.

0:29:47 Thomas: Yeah, well, but the commonality there is these people do not, there is a group of people that these perpetrators are not treating as moral considerations. These white people in the South and people in ISIS at this time, they just, black people were not in their moral consideration. They're treating them sort of like Nazis with the Jews. It's just, humans are able to say, I bet you other parts of their lives, I think this is a point Sam Harris has made, I'm sure a lot of the Nazis were great to their kids. You know, know, I'm sure they treated their pets really well. You know, it's like they just, they're able to take a group of people and not place them within moral consideration. It's truly the most horrifying thing about people. It really is. Like, there's nothing more horrifying than, no, you're not, you don't count as a person. Like, I can do whatever I want to. Ugh, it's

0:30:15 Ishmael: Oh. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Once You

0:30:46 Thomas: Horrifying.

0:30:46 Ishmael: Can dehumanize something, the the levels that you can, what, what you can do to it, I mean, it's it's terrifying, but yeah, you're right, so, so, we're just finding the worst things to talk about.

0:30:47 Thomas: Yeah. No, yeah, and I wasn't, I was adding to what, I wasn'T adding to that. I was saying to what you're saying. Thing. I think that you were right.

0:30:57 Ishmael: Huh? No. I I didn't say you were. What's

0:31:03 Thomas: So, wait, did you get pushback when you said they're as bad as ISIS? Because I agree with that statement.

0:31:03 Ishmael: Going on? Why, why, yeah. I did get some people who say, well, these people thought that they were guilty of a crime at the time, like, it was some, it wasn't my, it wasn't my page, it was like a atheist group, the person who shared it with me tagged me in some, it might have been Atheist Versus Theist Group Facebook group or something, and that, but it was only like one out of like 50, I mean, you know, so. So it's like, oh, and I kind of banged out with him a little.

0:31:15 Thomas: No.

0:31:27 Thomas: Right, right, right. No, I mean, I have no problem with that. That's as bad as ICE is for sure. It's the same thing. They're taking a group of people and just treating them like they're not humans. And people will do, when they do that, there's no limit to what they'll do, you know? It's the same kind of thing. Wow. Well, let's, can we transition?

0:31:35 Ishmael: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're right. So this is a funny show. I'm Eli in this shit out of the show right now.

0:31:51 Thomas: Yeah. Oh man, so good. Okay. Let's try to, we'll try to transition to something a little more, but dude, I think I said that on Shoeshine the other day, because I saw a posting about that and it really bugs me. Like, God, that part of our history really scares the shit out of of me and how recent it was. Like, it really does.

0:32:19 Thomas: I just want to emphasize that, like, that's not even something I think I'm just saying because you're here. Like, I said that on Shoeshine the other day, because I think I saw the same video you did. It's, god, it Really Depresses Me. But we can move on to cheerier subjects. Like, say, Black Lives Matter? Is that technically, it's at least cheerier than lynchings, I'd say?

0:32:19 Ishmael: Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, exactly. Hey, killing people with a bullet is a lot quicker than fire and rope. So

0:32:47 Thomas: Sure. Sure. Hey, if I had to pick, like, all right, give me the, yeah, go ahead, shoot me. Fuck, God.

0:32:48 Ishmael: Yeah

0:33:03 Thomas: All right, that's it for part one, now, part one was a little shorter than part two, because I transitioned to another topic, and then we talked about it longer, so I wanted to do a nice, clean cut there, and, then, part two is, is, even longer, and it's really fun, I, I had a ton of fun talking with Ishmael, and I hope you guys enjoyed it as much as I did, but, since that was a short part, that gives me time to maybe talk some comments, I figured, why Since I've got some extra time, I don't want to shortchange anyone, let's talk a little more comments, let get into it, and tack on, that on to the end of the show, so, you'll remember I talked about Mike Paff's comments in the past, and I have to say, or in the Paff show, or two, I can't remember, and, I have say, I'm, I, I do appreciate, one thing I do appreciated about him is, he did say, like, yeah, I dont care if you talk about my comments, because, I mean, he, he's all for, you know, just, expressing his feelings on the site, he doesn't, you You know, he'll make his points.

0:33:58 Thomas: He thinks I'm wrong. And, you know, he's happy to hear me say why I think he's wrong because he thinks I'M wrong. I have to say, Mike, I at least appreciate that. Like, you are willing to just say your points and argue very frustratingly, in my opinion. But, hey, we don't agree. So that's always going to be frustrating to a certain extent. But he doesn't get hurt. He doesn't shy away. So I appreciate that about you, Mike. I will say, hey! Other people, get on the site. AtheisticallySpeaking.com There's a lot of commenting that takes place on some shows more than others, so get on that if you want to interact with people on the site. It is a good place. Lots of times, comment threads will go back and forth, and it's really fun. And one such, I'm not going to read more of Mike's stuff because I've already kind of represented that.

0:34:46 Thomas: Someone else kind of came into this, someone named Phil M., and they said something interesting that I think is worth reading. So, so I'm not going to go through it all. I responded to one comment and then Phil responded back to me and said, let's see. Mariam Namazi does nude protests as a challenge to Islam. I think that is a great attention getter. But if you take off your clothes and your picture gets put on the internet, there are going to be boorish comments about how you look. Okay, that's sexist. But what about the Islamist that wants to beat or kill her? I think it is a disservice to her and her effort to focus on lowbrow body shamers rather than how oppressive Islam is to women.

0:35:31 Thomas: Okay, I'll continue. Back in September, several women were beaten for topless protests at an Islamic conference, so my point is body shaming is not the problem. It's almost like you are trying to protect Miriam from the male gaze rather than actual violence, and in recent shows, you seem to be almost avoiding the topic of Islam, whether it is the Dawkins video or your contempt for Rubin report. I would love to see you take on Islam with the same critical approach you successfully use on Christianity, Thomas and the Koran, so to speak. So I thought this was funny and fascinating for a number of reasons. I don't know how long you've listened to the show, Phil, but I feel like I've done my fair share of taking on Islam. I And I don't know, it's weird. It's a weird thing to hear said at me.

0:36:17 Thomas: It's like people really have this thing, to a certain extent, you really are screwed either way. I mean, as soon as you focus on one thing, someone says, why don't you focus on this and vice versa? And it's possible that maybe I give more attention to Christianity, although I'm not, I don't know if he's just referring to Thomas and the Bible, my podcast where I go through the entire Bible. If you are focusing on that, Phil, by the way, that podcast wraps up in October, which is fast approaching, actually, and I will be switching to Thomas and the Quran after that. So it's funny you should mention that because that will be happening. And it's possible that that will fuel a greater ability to critique Islam and critique the texts. But I will say that I'm just not, I'm not an expert on Islam.

0:37:02 Thomas: I don't know all that much about it. I know a fair amount, as much as you would expect from being an atheist and reading that kind of stuff. But I didn't grow up in the religion like I did with Christianity. I don't have a lot of Muslim friends. I actually don't know if I have any Muslim friends, just on the nature of the demographics of where I live. I'm not sure I know any Muslims, actually. So besides the ones I've met doing this podcast, I have lots of great Muslim friends or ex-Muslim friends, rather, of this show. So there's that, but yeah, I just don't, I don't have the same authority, but the thing I think is funny is you saying I'm okay. Here's the thing. This is not a zero sum game. It's not, oh, if I focus on Tommy Robinson, who is being incredibly just rude and, and sexist and weird when he was commenting on Miriam's body and the other girls in the, in the protest.

0:37:58 Thomas: And, and he's someone with the huge following. He's doing that publicly. It's not a troll, as Mike keeps saying. And Mike, I have to say, at a certain extent, you just need to be on Twitter and see the things he's tweeting. I'm not going to read every single thing, by the way, since I'm sure Mike's listening. I'm not going read and show you every single instance because you're not on Twitter. So maybe you should just not comment as much on something you don't know about. But that's another story. So anyway, anyway, when Phil is telling me I need to focus on, you know, actual Islamists who are beating people up and beating female protesters up, I think it's funny you should say that when I've so recently and including in the recent podcast where I talked about Miriam talked about the fact that I thought her nude protests were such a great counter to Islamism and how it's forcing women to veil and all that.

0:38:51 Thomas: Like, I exactly already referenced that. Now, maybe I didn't spend the amount of time that you're looking for on it, but it's it's It's really not an all-or-nothing thing, it's, I've critiqued Islam plenty in the past, I think that the conservative, especially conservative Islam, and honestly, maybe the majority of Muslims in some of these countries have incredibly backward conservative ideas that I don't appreciate when white Republicans have, and I don't appreciate when Muslims have, it has nothing to do with who it is or what, it just the beliefs themselves, whether it's anti-gay rights, or anti-women or what, I don't, I think those beliefs are harmful and I'm going to critique them wherever I see them. So I don't think I'm avoiding Islam or, or anything like that.

0:39:38 Thomas: It's kind of a weird, I don't know if you're a newer listener or maybe you just, maybe my newer episodes haven't been as much about that or something, but I, I just found this interesting because not only am I going to do Thomas and the Korean Neck, so I thought that was a funny coincidence, but it's not either-or, I both condemn Muslims who have a backward view when it comes to women and gay rights and all that, I condemn that, and certainly all Islamists and jihadists and anyone who's going to commit violence in the name of Islam and is going to beat up nude protesters, of course, of course I condemn them, that's ridiculous. Ridiculous, and I'm going to call people out when they do really gross, rude, sexist things online, like comment to weird extent on Miriam's body and the other girls.

0:40:25 Thomas: I mean, it's just, I don't know why so many people have a problem with me calling that out. I say so many People, I guess it's been a handful, but it still seems weird. Like, I'm gonna call that out, end of story. I don't really, it's just crazy to me. It seems like you're really wanting me to ignore that or something. I mean, I wouldn't have even bothered talking about it had you guys not commented on it. You know, I would have talked about the one time said this guy is being sexist and weird and all that. And then it would have been done. You Know, we would have been done with the issue. But but the comments had me carry on. So I thought that was interesting. I wanted to share that with you guys. And yeah, I mean I I certainly am no fan of Islam, so that's a weird comment to get.

0:41:12 Thomas: All right. Well, thank you so much for listening. Hey, for those of you who don't want to wait for part two with Ishmael, which is, I promise you, very interesting, part two, you can go to patreon.com/atheist, pledge as little as a dollar a show, which comes out to like nothing, and you'll have instant access. I'm going to post it right away. And so as you're hearing this, it's already up for my premium listeners. Listeners, so I encourage you to go do that. No more wait.

The wait is over. Patreon.com/atheist. So thanks for listening, and of course I need to thank my patrons. New ones include a Mike Sisko and a Jack, thank you guys so much for pledging, really appreciate it, hope you enjoyed that early episode, and then I gotta thank my all-time greats, Kaylee Reiser, Zima Zinu, Jadrien Borschoff, uh, Jonathan Moyet, Jay Aldenwalt, Bangs Naughty Bits, Christian J., Peter Skelton, Brian Gareford, Dale, and Matt Garrett, thank, you guys, very, very sincerely, from the bottom of my heart, and I hope you enjoy that early, uh, content for you, so, thanks so much, for listening, it was a great week, And I look forward to next week.