AS146: Ex-Mormon, Rondale Part 2

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:31 Thomas: Hello and welcome to episode 146 of Atheistically Speaking with your host Thomas Smith. Okay, well, we're just going to continue our discussion with Rondale and it was very fun and I liked it a lot. So let's just get right back to it and here you go.

0:01:00 Thomas: Yeah.

0:01:00 Rondale: Yeah, so so what's funny about living here in the south is that, um, like I've ran into a lot of people more so than living in Connecticut that have like kind of assumed I'm, you know, religious. So, like, I, so I've had friends who, um, I've worked with who have told, like, you knows, we'll get into a conversation and they'll be like, like, yeah, you know, so you're married. Like, what church did you get married at? And like, I didn't get married in the church. I got married at, you know, City Hall. And so, you know, and then I'll come out.

0:01:11 Thomas: Right.

0:01:22 Thomas: That must be pretty, pretty odd, huh, for people

0:01:30 Rondale: Yeah. Yeah. Our people, you know, assume I go to church. So they'll ask for church. I go to, you know, people like automatically like I remember this past year, we just had some some friends and family over for New Year's. And like they assumed that, you you know, um, I prayed and whatnot. And so I was kind of forced into prayer because I didn't want to like the social outcasts around them. So I've, I've had things like that, but on the flip side of that, like I work as a software developer and so in the software development community, um, there's not a lot of religion. Um, and

0:01:30 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's a bit

0:02:09 Rondale: So, yeah.

0:02:10 Thomas: Of a different Community. I

0:02:11 Rondale: And So, um I remember, you know telling one of my co-workers, hey, you know, I don't believe in God, you know, I'm an atheist. And they're like, oh cool, well you'll fit right in. We're all atheists. And so,

0:02:22 Thomas: Have So many software slash programmer kind of listeners, it's really interesting. Yeah.

0:02:30 Rondale: You know, we do have one guy with us that is religious, but he grew up here in Atlanta and whatnot. But everybody else that, like, I work with, they grew up, in like, I know one guy grew up Wisconsin, another guy grew grew up in Florida, um, and a couple other people grew up in other parts of the country and whatnot, but pretty much everybody we, I work with, you know, they're not religious, um, so, like, it's kind of weird. So, you know, outside of work I do see a lot of religion, just like a church, literally like every mile, so, like, the The street that I live on, like, I can walk down the street and there's three churches, um, and whatnot within, you know, a three mile radius. Uh, but, you know, so some, so so for me at work there's not a lot of religion, but outside of work there is, um,

0:03:04 Thomas: Yeah.

0:03:20 Thomas: Interesting. So, I, I gotta ask, how, uh, how has the atheist community treated you as being a black atheist? And that's another kind of interesting minority group, you know, it's like going from one to the next for Mormons, then into atheism.

0:03:20 Rondale: Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah, um, Yeah. So, yeah, so I honestly, I think it's been wonderful, um, you know, I, I do see a lot, like, I listen to a lot different podcasts, uh, I do, we see a lot of people complain about, like, lack of diversity and whatnot. But I haven't really ran into anybody that has been, like—I haven't run into, like a lot racism within the, you know, atheist community. I haven'T ran into,like, a lot hatred. I don'T really feel a division. I just think that there aren'T a lot us just because of how strong religion is in the Black community. And so, therefore, any time you go to any type of atheist meetup, any type atheist convention, this is going to always be, there's gonna always be, like, a feeling of, like, there's gonna always been something, like, you know, that you thought a place, but I mean it's been wonderful. Like, I feel like everybody I've ran across have have been, like, you no, happy to have me and other black, like, atheists with with, uh, you know, open arms, um, and so I mean I

0:03:49 Thomas: Sure.

0:04:06 Thomas: Well,

0:04:44 Rondale: Don't really have

0:04:45 Thomas: That's good. I'm glad to hear that. It's a positive experience. It's interesting what you said, I, I, I, uh, I don't know if you have any numbers handy, but, yeah, it is definitely very small group, black atheists, I think. But and I think it is, I'm just thinking off the top of my head. I mean, it's it is hard to get representation, you know, and I would, it'd be something I'd be happy to to encourage. But but then it feels kind of weird. Like, OK, I need to go find, you know, I needed to, like, target black atheists and get them on my show.

Like, I would, I'd be happy to do it. But it also feels weird that way, too. Well, I sort of feel like I know there there are some good black atheist podcasts out there. I feel like you guys you guys got to get get, you know, get start your own podcast. I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean, like, that's the best way to representation. I think that's better than, oh, maybe you can kind of be heard on someone else's thing where they're controlling the thing. I think the answer is hopefully more and more black atheists will start podcasts

0:04:45 Rondale: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Right. Oh. Yeah, yeah.

0:05:50 Thomas: Or promote podcasts or whatever. And I'd be happy to aid in that in any way I can. But it's just hard with a small number. You know, it's going to be difficult to get that representation. But I'm glad you haven't felt, you know, ostracized or anything. You haven't fell out of place. Or maybe you have a little, but I don't know. I'm Glad you've had a good experience.

0:05:58 Rondale: Yeah.

0:06:07 Rondale: Well. Well, yeah, I mean, especially, I, I think, you know, I think what you're saying is 100% correct. Like, I feel like so often I think just have in general, like, even outside of religion I feel like when you are the minority population, right, like, um, and maybe my, my ideas on this are, like, part of the minority, um, but I really don't think that what, like like I really don't think that as a black person or Hispanic person or any other minority, um, you can't always, like, expect, Okay, well, because we live in a Caucasian, in dominated society, like, we need to look to them always for, like, the handout or to step up.

Um, I really do feel like we needs to take our own initiative a lot of times to just say, Okay, you know what, I don't see a black person doing this, so let me go ahead and do it, right?

So, um, for example, I remember when I was getting into software development and I was learning to, you know, and I went to school for computer science and whatnot, like, one of the things that motivated me to do that was because I knew there weren't a lot of black software developers, right?

0:06:29 Thomas: Well, we'll see. Wow,

0:07:14 Rondale: So, you know, so for me it was like, Okay, there aren't a bunch of black people that are doing this, so let me be the one to start it, or let me join the few that are starting it, so that we can grow in numbers, so that more people could see that, hey, it's Okay to be a black software developer, or, hey, it is Okay to be black atheist, I am not weird because I am that.

And so I think a lot of times it takes that one or two or or that third person to go ahead and do it instead of waiting for, uh, somebody to help them out to, you know, get along that path, um, So like I said, that may be unpopular opinion, um, because, because I hear a lot of people say well we want the government to do this, we want to do that, but at the end of the day, like I don't think that that's going to always get you what you want, um, especially now with, you know, the ways the Senate and different parts of government are built up, you're not going to always work in your advantage, so a lot of times, to me, you have to be a self-starter and you have to go after what you wants or be that representation that you want to see, um, and so yeah, and I feel like it's the same for the black atheist community.

I feel like a lot us, um, sometimes it's kind of hard to tell people to people to be brave and step up and speak out, especially if you got parents paying for you to go to college or if you're the only one

0:07:15 Thomas: That's really cool. Yeah. Yeah.

0:08:34 Rondale: You know um, in your family that is an atheist, you don't want to be kicked out and homeless and whatnot, um, you know, so it is, it is kind of scary, but, uh, I would definitely, you know, definitely advise people, hey, you know what, once you get out of your parents' home when you graduate from college and you can support yourself, definitely, like, come out and help us out, because, because, I mean, yes, I'm an outspoken atheist, but, like, just plenty of times, you know, I even feel scared to say anything around my black friends.

0:08:35 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I, I think you need, you need more of you, we need more of you. I think you're right, I think, uh, it's definitely can be sensitive, um, to, you know, coming out. I think when I had Greta Christina talking about her book, I think she made that point too, it's, it, you, it doesn't mean you always need to do it right away, you can always be in a situation where it's it's more beneficial to you to stay in the closet, so to speak, speak, um, but, like, you just said, I, I totally agree that when you can, it's, it's best to come out because of the people you are kind of lending support to, um, similar to what you're doing. So, I think that's really commendable and and, uh, I, you know, I want to do whatever I can, but I don't know, sometimes it's hard, I, I don't, I don't, I don't have, you know, like that big of an influence, but with whatever influence I have, I'm glad I have you on, uh, giving your message, because I think it's a good, good one. Yeah.

0:09:10 Rondale: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

0:10:00 Rondale: Yeah. And, you know, one other thing, too, I wanted to touch on, too, like the reason why I think a lot of black people or a lot of blacks don't make the jump to, um, atheism, is because I feel like there's also a stigma to, um, atheist, right, like other than just, like, people thinking, like, you're a devil, you know, I don't know, worshiper or something like that, but I also think that, like, it's a stigma that our being an atheist is a white thing to do, quote unquote, um, You know, because there's been plenty of times, like, I've been teased by a family member, right? Like, they'll jokingly say, well, you know, you're really a white boy, right? You're not really black, you know, you're an atheist, you're a software developer, you're into science, you know, uh, you know, and you do white boy type things. And so I think there's also that stigma that, okay, If you, yeah.

0:10:18 Thomas: Well. That's definitely true. Yeah. Yeah. How Destructive? Is that, though? Is that really, is that the attitude? Because I mean, that's pretty depressing. I, I didn't, sure.

0:10:48 Rondale: Yeah. Like Like I haven't heard it from a ton of blacks, but I but I've, I've heard that, from you know, I've hurt, some people say that, well, you know, know, you, you're, you're listening to what, you know, the white people have to say about things, or do you really, it's kind of like almost like the people that are science deniers, you know, like, Well, don't do that thing because a scientist said that, and because, and because, you know, scientists are, you know, don't really care about people, right? They're just like people who do experiments on people or whatever people think about scientists and whatnot, we shouldn't really trust them, right? Right. And I feel like in a black community, there's kind of that same thing. Like, well, we shouldn't really trust white people. And so because there's some white people that are atheists, then maybe what they're saying is not really true. And because you are part of that community, you're joining them, then you're not really one of us. Like, I've, I've gotten that, I've got that feeling sometimes, too.

0:10:57 Thomas: Yeah.

0:11:13 Thomas: That Makes sense, I mean, it makes, I, I can understand because of Obviously what, what blacks have been through in this country. I can fully understand that sort of, you know, definitely cautious attitude when it comes to white people. I Can fully appreciate that. But it's a very sad statement that you said when someone looks at all these, what I think are really good qualities, like you're into science, I mean, what I think would be pretty universal, universally recognized as good qualities being being into science, being into being kind of a self-starter and that you got into programming and software development and all that. And someone looks at that and says, like, don't do that because that's too white. You know, like that's, I hope that's.

0:11:52 Rondale: Mm hmm. Mm hmm, mm hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

0:12:35 Thomas: I mean, I have no experience with that. So I'm taking whatever, you know, you at your word. I hopethat's not a big part of the black community because that would be really sad. But I mean I guess I understand where the hesitation comes into play when it comes to, you know, God.

0:12:49 Rondale: Well, I kind of compare it to like, okay, let's say you're even in the white community, right? Let's say you're really into the science and computers. Well who really wants to be labeled a geek? Are you the one that really wants to be the social outcast? No, probably not. You know?

0:12:56 Thomas: Yeah, that's true. That, that does exist, but it's such a nerd culture is so on the rise in this country that I think it's, it's kind of, yeah, true. And, and you're right. It is similar to maybe back in more, I would think maybe, I don't know, eighties or something.

0:13:06 Rondale: Yeah. Sure. Right. Yeah, nowadays.

0:13:20 Thomas: There was a lot of, Yeah.

0:13:19 Rondale: Right, 80s, 90s, right.

0:13:21 Thomas: There's a lot of like, Oh, you geek, you you know, that sort of thing. But I think that it's, it's really on the rise. And I hope that it's also on the rice in the black community, because that would be, I think, I thank universally nerds are cool. And I think nerds, nerds do a lot of good things. You know, I think that's nerds are good influence.

0:13:35 Rondale: Yeah Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think my point is that nobody wants to be a part of the group that is socially outcasted all the time. And so I think that prevents a lot of people, especially in the Black community, from taking that one last step. So I know so many Blacks that are like, oh, yeah, I don't buy that when it comes to religion. No, I didn't really believe that. But you know what? Yeah, I'm still calling myself a Christian. Right, and it's because and because there's a lot of either because that's the in crowd, you know, like how often do you see

0:13:47 Thomas: Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. I think I've heard that from someone else too. It makes sense. There may be a lot more black unbelievers, you know than than we know, Because I really think there's such a high pressure, it seems like, from what I've heard, that they're, like you referenced earlier, you know, there's a higher stigma for atheists in the black community. So yeah, that makes sense.

0:14:14 Rondale: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, especially like, um, so often, like, when I see a Black TV show or, um, I'm watching something on television just with like a lot of Black people in it, right, and there's like two people that are, you know, you have a guy that's, it's trying to get some girl in some movie or TV show. You know, one of the things I always hear a lot of men say in those shows, or Black men say in those show, is, hey, I'm a good Christian man. I'm good Black Christian man, you know, why wouldn't any woman want me? You know what I mean? Or if that's, you know, that's the positive quality.

0:15:06 Thomas: Yeah.

0:15:06 Rondale: So it's kind of hard to say, you know, if you're a Black woman or if you are a Black male to say, hey, you know, well, I am an atheist Black guy, you know, do you want to date me? Uh, no, well, atheist uh, all right, yeah, like do I really want to do that, yep.

0:15:16 Thomas: Yeah, that's hard. And you said you're married. How did that go? Was your wife religious? Or how did that translate? Translate.

0:15:24 Rondale: Nope. My my wife is not religious at all, um.

0:15:31 Thomas: Okay. Yeah. I was going to say, that's what you have to do. That's what I had to do, even in the quote unquote white community. I definitely sought a non-believer because it can be, I think that runs both ways. It does sound like it may be a little worse in the black community just because the religiosity is so high, but yeah, it can be bad anywhere. In any community, I think when you're an atheist, there is such a big stigma against it that, you know, when the when the for you and I, when The Christian Girl, if we were trying to date like a Christian girl, you know, back before we were both married, they go to tell their parents, you know, like, he's an atheist.

0:15:32 Rondale: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep, yep. Yep, yeah, yep.

0:16:15 Thomas: You know, it's kind of the this typical thing is like, well, that's you can't trust that person, you know? Yeah.

0:16:19 Rondale: Well, it's funny, it's funny though, I was even, uh, you know, kind of scared for a while to even let her parents kind of find out, so so my wife is, you know, she's not a believer, but she's also like the type, she's very apathetic towards religion, she's kind of like, uh, I don't care, whatever, like, people believe whatever, it doesn't really bother me, right? She doesn't care about being an atheist, she doesn't care about being a believer, whatever to her. But, um, you know, I remember for a while, um, I was like, well, how do you think your parents would take it? Because she, I mean, when we first got together, she had told me that her dad, um, was, is a part of like the, uh, Lutheran church, and her mom was pretty Catholic and whatnot.

And I remember being like, oh my god, I hope her parents never find out, because if her parents find out, they're going to convince me to leave her, or they're gonna, or they're to convince her to leave me. Um, and so I remember talking to her brother one day, and her brother was like, no, my parents don't really care about religion either, they just wear those titles, but they don't care that you're an atheist or whatever. And so, um, you know, my parents eventually found out, and then down the road, uh, we also just had a baby too, and

0:16:27 Thomas: Mm hmm. Mm hmm, sure. Yeah. Sure, oh, Congratulations.

0:17:27 Rondale: So yeah, thanks. And, um, I remember there was one day my wife had to go, she went to a clinic to go get checked up, or to go get checked on, she wanted to take like a pregnancy test to make sure she was pregnant, and apparently, apparently, the clinic offered, like, free tests, free pregnancy tests and whatnot, and her mother went with her. And I guess my wife didn't know that this place was also an abortion clinic, right? So living here in the South, abortion clinics are already looked down upon.

0:17:27 Thomas: Yeah, No kidding, oh.

0:18:00 Rondale: But apparently, this is also a religious type of, let's persuade you to not have an abortion clinic. It was that type of clinic, and so my wife came

0:18:09 Thomas: Wow, so it's one that they kind of have to let exist in the South because you have to, but then they try to convince you not to do it.

0:18:16 Rondale: Didn't She too, right? Exactly. So my life, like, you know, after she got out, she was like, babe, I have to tell you something, I have to tell you what happened, like, you're going to be so pissed off when you hear this. And so apparently, like, the nurse that she had, convinced her to not, it was trying to convince her not have an abortion, that is going against God and all these different things, and I was like, oh my gosh, like, how is this allowed to exist? And so her mother ended up telling her, so she told me that when her mom was, was there at the, uh, clinic with her, her mom was telling her, well, if Rondale was here to hear this, he would go off right now, and I was like, wow, like, your mother's correct, so your mom would really know how strong we have all these type of

0:18:16 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, My gosh. Oh, that's

0:18:52 Rondale: Things, but like, but, like, um, you know, just, put my point, like, um, I was scared at first to kind of let her parents know, but her parents are, um, pretty okay with it, so

0:19:01 Thomas: Cool, well, That's really cool. That sounds like you, you hit the jackpot there with a good, good wife and a nice understanding family, even if you know, even if they're religious, yeah,

0:19:01 Rondale: Yeah, yeah, now, now, one thing that is pretty interesting, you know, is that my wife is also, um, a teacher, and so she's had, she's had offers from, like, Christian private schools down here, um, and, you know, a lot of teachers, uh, it, or we teach at a private school, a lot of schools allow you to take, you know, bring your kid there for free, or your kid, your kid could attend the school for free or for like some reduced amount, and so we've had talks about, you know, whether we would actually let our, our, uh, child attend a, you know, know, private Christian school, because, you know, at the end of the day, a lot of, a lot of the academics there are, um, superior to what public schools can offer, um, and and and whatnot, and so well, we've came to the agreement that, you know, um, we would allow it to happen, but, like, you know, any courses that had to do with religion would kind of let her be a free, a free thinking child, right? Like, sit down with her, talk about it, let her find answers for herself, and let her make her own decision.

So, you know, I really, you know, I've decided that I don't really let her know what daddy believes, that what mommy would, or what mommy believes, but let her kind of explore, uh, those different ideas for herself. So she reads the Bible, and her teacher says, hey, this is what happened, uh, I don't know, a thousand years ago, well, my idea would be to, let's go, let's go to the internet, you know, the place that makes atheists, and let's figure this out. Let's look at the real facts.

0:19:15 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.

0:19:50 Thomas: So what's your thinking on that?

0:20:39 Thomas: Yeah.

0:20:39 Rondale: And whatnot and let'S see where this goes. And, you know, I'm pretty confident.

0:20:43 Thomas: Yeah, you're gonna I mean, I appreciate trying to raise her a little little neutral. But if you're, yeah, you definitely are gonna have to offset that a little bit because those schools you never know. I mean some of them could be fine, but they also could be kind of priming kids to completely reject, you know, evolution or or something like that.

0:20:45 Rondale: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep.

0:21:02 Thomas: And it's kind of hard. But I'm curious if anyone listening has a similar experience, because I can certainly respect if I were in your situation, I would want my kid to go to the best school available. And oftentimes, religious schools are really good. I mean, it depends. It gets a little iffy with certain science things, but I can certain respect that. And I could see making a similar decision. So I'm curious if anyone else comment or let us know if you have that experience, too.

0:21:02 Rondale: Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what's also funny, so on the flip side of that, like talk about being a parent and trying to be with someone who's a teacher, you know, like there's been a lot of times too where, um, you know, we've kind of, or I've had to kind of watch out for like what I do on Facebook and things like that because my wife being a teacher here in the South, you know, we don't want kind of like the atheist label attached to her, you know, so, you know, a lot times she, you know, she's talking, like, hey, don't do this on Facebook, not because I'm trying to control you or anything like that, but because I don't want somebody to know that my husband's an atheist and then that could affect me professionally.

0:21:51 Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a, yeah, especially in the South, definitely parents can get a little crazy with, you know, with their kids and what they think atheist teachers are going to do.

0:22:11 Rondale: Um, yeah, right, right. Exactly. Exactly, and, you know, it's sad. It's hard, but yeah, uh, hopefully, eventually, we can get out of the South, and you know we can move to some other place, uh that's much more liberal.

0:22:22 Thomas: Ooh, that'd be nice. Yeah.

0:22:33 Rondale: Yeah, there's much, more uh, you, know, liberal and whatnot, but

0:22:36 Thomas: That goes for everyone. Everyone, you don't have to live in the south. Just leave.

0:22:37 Rondale: Uh, yeah, well it's kind of, it' kind of hard to say that when that, um, Um, yeah.

0:22:42 Thomas: No, I know. No, I'm just joking.

0:22:45 Rondale: When the housing prices are so cheap.

0:22:46 Thomas: No, that's true. Oh, my gosh. Houses are, that is something that is starting to get real for me. I mean, kind of looking at houses in there. Oh, it is so expensive in California. But you could buy a mansion for nothing in the South.

0:22:56 Rondale: Oh, yes, it is oh, Yeah, I mean, we just recently bought like a five-bedroom house for like two hundred thousand dollars, yeah, yeah, And, yeah, and, you know, before we lived in uh New York and we were paying like uh over twelve hundred dollars a month for, for uh, for rent. So, you know, now the downside is we have to deal with the highly religious population, but there's cheap living.

0:23:06 Thomas: Oh, My God. That is so awesome. Yeah.

0:23:15 Thomas: Oh, yeah. Yeah, supply and Demand. Supply and demand, no one wants to live there. So fewer people want to live there so it's nice and cheap but uh interesting but it would be nice if if all these places we could just be like hey sensible people let's all move maybe that's already happened actually maybe that's why the South it can be so backwards is some places is like all the smart people are like let's get out of here right

0:23:30 Rondale: Right, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Well, Well, well. I mean, it's funny. Like, so a couple of weeks ago, my wife and I were just having a discussion about when you look at like the very prestigious universities here in the United States, where they're located most of them are not in the South most of them are in the Northeast or out West uh you know so all the all of the Ivy League universities are in the Northeast um and I like I'm more like one day we're sitting in a car we're thinking about it's like yeah the only good universities we know about down here in the South are like Vanderbilt, Georgia Tech and like maybe Emory and Duke um but besides that you know most of the very good universities are are outside of the South, which tells you something. Sorry to my Southern listeners or to people that are listening from the South. But yeah, it's not that great. And then you look at some of the social inequalities. I know the other day, I was just looking on the DMV website for the state of Georgia.

0:24:04 Thomas: Yeah.

0:24:33 Thomas: What?

0:24:49 Rondale: And they had, because I need to get a new driver's license and whatnot. And they have something on their website about, well, we do not accept same-sex marriage licenses um if you need to get a photo ID down here um yeah it said that right on the website and I was just like uh wow like that's really blatant you know like they're really telling you like no gay marriages down here at all don't come to DMV with that mess you know we won't give you a state ID if you try or you can't use it as a document to get the state ID down there which is

0:25:00 Thomas: Yeah. Oh. Yeah. I was trying trying to figure out what what you yeah what you're using it for at the DMV but I guess yeah name change or something I don't know oh

0:25:19 Rondale: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is which is pretty odd because here in Atlanta um there's a big homosexual population um Yeah. Yeah so uh that's kind of where yeah

0:25:32 Thomas: Really? Hmm, I mean most any any city usually is it's it you know tends to be or maybe that's just where gay people can actually be out but uh yeah Well. Someday someday I mean that's changing it's state by state it seems like it's its it's going to be it's going to be United States wide it's pretty soon in our lifetimes I would imagine I mean it's it's it seems like it's cascading you know but uh yeah I

0:25:45 Rondale: Yeah. Yeah so yeah I I would I I I hope so I would really hope so because I have a lot of friends who are like that

0:26:08 Thomas: Wanted to ask Yeah totally and I wanted to ask a question that I meant to get to and kind of forgot for me as an as an atheist and and you know as someone who's never been too terribly religious there's a big difference between between Mormons and Christians, there's like a, it seems Mormonism seems all the insanity of Christianity plus a lot more. And so, you know, it's, it's like, it's all the claims of Christianity. It's, it's almost mathematically more ridiculous because it, it entails all of Christianity plus a bunch of other random crap. But it sounds like for your family or for your community, when you're a Mormon um when you were a Morman rather were you just accepted as as religious like it's okay as long as you're religious when we talk in terms of the stigma you know what I mean was it like it's either religious or not you know and they don't really care if you're Mormen or Christian sure

0:26:08 Rondale: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Right. All right so there's like two parts it's like a two-part answer to that that, right? So Mormons like to, at least the Mormons that I was around, right, because it seems like all the good Mormon communities are pretty different depending on where you live. The Mormons I were around, like, they wanted to be included in that Christian group, right. So they would constantly tell us, or the Mormones I was Around, they would constantly say, no, we're also Christian. What do you mean we're not Christian? You know, we are not separate. We're just a a different sect um right

0:27:11 Thomas: Right. Yeah. That's probably a good marketing move I'm guessing yeah

0:27:37 Rondale: Right, exactly. And so being in the black community and um you know saying I was a Mormon to them it's like yep exactly like you said uh your religion or your religious so it doesn't matter whatever you know and especially like when I was Mormon's like I kind of bought everything you know every single thing that um my Mormonic friends were saying you know So they said I was a Christian. I'm like, yeah, I'm a Christian, but I'm just a Mormon. That was kind of like what I would tell them.

0:27:38 Thomas: Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

0:28:08 Rondale: I can't remember any situation where I ever had any black friends that were like, oh, yeah. You're not really Christian. You're a Mormon, just a totally different thing and whatnot. Of course, we would have talks about the differences.

0:28:15 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:28:23 Rondale: Of course the baptismal ceremony is a lot different than what most Christian sects do. Like I remember when I was a Mormon I I didn't put on like a white diaper or anything like that I've heard certain people say that like they they've had to do that but I remember I had like a white jumpsuit I had to get into

0:28:38 Thomas: Wait, you didn't, you didn't get your Mormon underwear? Maybe you didn' t get far enough. Because, I mean, that definitely exists. That was confirmed by every, all the Mormons I had on previously. Maybe, yeah, next level.

0:28:39 Rondale: Nope. I didn't get my Mormen underwear yeah yeah yeah I think that's I didn't know what it was yeah I didn't get to that next level yet but um I I remember like I had a put on my little white jumpsuits and I got dunked into like a bathtub full of water and uh that was it and then afterwards we had like a little ceremony um after the baptismal service um and whatnot but uh you know yeah

0:28:53 Thomas: Yeah . . . yeah . . I'm curious about this. I mean . . I wonder if it could be because the Mormones I talked to were in, you know, Utah and things are a bit more strict there or yeah I don't know but you should have gotten your by all accounts you should have gotten your Mormon underwear I think

0:29:17 Rondale: Yeah yeah or maybe or or maybe I didn't get them and I took them all by mistake because I didn't know any better that's like those are not for me so

0:29:31 Thomas: Yeah you just thought it was an extra pair of clothes they're like yeah I don't need this yeah that's funny yeah

0:29:40 Rondale: Know exactly yeah but uh but yeah like so like we would talk about like the different um we would talking about the differences so like you know I have a friend who's Baptist uh and so we would have a difference between like being a Baptist and being a Mormon and talk about the afterlife like the afterlife for me was always like the biggest uh conversation that people wanted to have with me like oh what do Mormons believe about the afterlife and of course it's all weird um quirky beliefs when it comes to that in the whole Mormon church like there's not just simply going to hell you know there's like different levels of darkness and stuff like that um yeah and a lot of other crazy things but uh yeah yeah I was I was never kind of like you know ostracized because I was a black Mormon's at all

0:30:26 Thomas: I I really that makes sense to me it seems like it's sort of a binary thing like you're either a believer you're not and uh really religious communities you know it it seems like the important thing is that you're non-atheist otherwise

0:30:27 Rondale: Yeah right right exactly no atheism atheism no atheism allowed as a matter of fact it was there was a black a black uh podcast of atheists it should be called that no atheism allowed because that's exactly because because that's exactly what it what it feels like so one one other thing I forgot to talk about that was very creepy too um so I remember after I left the Mormon church um I remember uh they they started to like notice I guess I wasn't attending church anymore and so I when I first um joined I was living at home with my mother and I eventually left to go live with a girlfriend and I remember they actually came like knocking on my mom's door one day like asking for where I was um and whatnot and I don't like my mom calling me up one day be like hey uh I just had some people come here they they claim to be Mormons and they came looking for you.

And I was like, what? Like, that's weird. I'm like, is it that serious that I don't go to your church? And I had been to like, you know, other churches in the past. They never came to my house to come look for me.

0:30:42 Thomas: Yeah exactly yeah well there you go start it up sure oh Yeah, that's the Mormons. Yeah.

0:31:50 Rondale: Yeah, yeah. And, I thought that was very weird. Like, for a long time, I felt like, oh my gosh, these people want to really come hunting me down to make sure I attend church once again. So, So, but yeah, I mean, I'm pretty sure like somewhere in Utah, you know, they still have a file with my name on it.

0:31:58 Thomas: Probably.

0:32:09 Thomas: Yeah. Oh. Did you officially, uh, leave? I forgot to to ask that, because you have to Officially, okay. Yeah.

0:32:16 Rondale: Nope. Nope.

0:32:17 Thomas: So they Do are

0:32:17 Rondale: No. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm pretty sure they still have a file with my name on it. I just stopped, so when I left, I stopped attending church and whatnot. And I still kept in touch with like some friends who actually got married, you know, they're two Mormon friends, they actually got married, now they're divorced. So they also have a very funny story, I think. But yeah, they're both still Mormons, got divorced.

0:32:38 Thomas: They Still Mormons, or Oh.

0:32:42 Rondale: A funny story about them. So the female in that relationship, she's actually been like a lifelong Mormon, but she was almost ousted from the church because she had sex in college, I believe. Leave and she pretty much won her way back in. And then, um, my one of my, so the guy that was married to her, he actually was another black Mormon. And, um, he didn't grow up in the church, he converted when he was like 18, and he's been on like a mission and everything like that, but now he's like his mind has been totally warped by the whole thing, and he is looking for like Miss Molly Mormon. And so they got divorced because, um, the girl that he, the, the female that he was, you know, married to, uh, was way too liberal for his liking. She wanted to work, she, she wanted to work and do things outside the home, and he wanted Miss Molly Mormin, and couldn't get that until he divorced her.

0:33:36 Thomas: Wow. Yeah. That's, that definitely, uh, comports with other accounts of Mormonism. It can be very, very rigid about that. Well, Um, Oh, go ahead, yeah.

0:33:41 Rondale: Yeah. Yeah. Now, go ahead, I was gonna say, you know, just what's weird about that is that, uh, you know, a lot of the female Mormons that I, that I know, they don't see that act to it, and it would make you think more than we'll get out of it, because I know a lot of them that you know, like working and doing things for themselves, so yeah.

0:34:03 Thomas: It's really hard to get out of something that you're born into, you know. It's really difficult, and I, I just, it occurred to me when you said your, your other, the black Mormon friend you were just talking about that he converted. And then I realized, like, yeah, there's not going to be a whole lot of black Mormons who grew up in the church, because you couldn't be a member so recently, you know, it's like, you'd have to have a whole generation. I mean, I guess there obviously are there, there could be some, but it's going to be hard when you couldn't even be a member if you were black in 1972.

0:34:19 Rondale: Yeah.

0:34:37 Thomas: So it's going to BE hard for there to be A whole, you Know, generations of Mormons where, you you know, you're going to be a black Mormon raised in the church. It's going to take a while for that to happen.

0:34:45 Rondale: Well, Yep. Yep.

0:34:46 Thomas: So most of the, it's funny that most of the black Mormons are like, oh yeah, I converted late in life. It makes sense.

0:34:47 Rondale: And Yep, and what's kind of funny about his situation too is his mom was really religious, and his mom, uh, was pissed that he joined a Mormon church. Yeah, like his mom would, I remember his mom, I would, like for a while we were roommates, and I remember his mom would like come over and tell him, like, why you're part of that church, that's not a good church. You know, they were constantly getting arguments back and forth about why he shouldn't be a Mormon.

0:35:00 Thomas: Oh, yeah.

0:35:14 Thomas: So she was a little more sectarian about it. A little more, yeah, okay. Interesting. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming on and telling your story and it's really interesting and I'm glad to hear that things are going okay as a black atheist and uh, that's that's always good to hear. I think it helps that your job is very atheist. I think that's a good if you're in a more religious job it can be a little more stifling I'm sure but thanks so much and uh is there anything else you'd like to say in closing I'd

0:35:17 Rondale: Mm hmm. Yeah, exactly.

0:35:36 Rondale: Definitely.

0:35:47 Rondale: No, it's a pleasure to talk to you, Thomas, and hopefully we can grow the number of black atheists out there. Please come out if you can.

0:35:55 Thomas: Love that and and yeah, listeners, if I have some more black listeners, I know I do, um, uh, get in touch with me if you'd to say anything or or if you any. Any way I can help. I'll put it that way. I don't know what else to say other than anything I can do, let me know.

0:36:13 Thomas: All right. Thanks, Rondale. I'll talk to you soon.

0:36:13 Rondale: Definitely. All right. Talk to you later.

0:36:32 Thomas: All right, well, nothing to announce too much here. I think I've already made the same announcements, book club, come on the show and talk about Elijiah. But I got some volunteers, so I think I'm good unless anyone really also wants to email me. But Gerald, one of the OG ex-Mormons, as he put it in the email I got from him, definitely original gamer ex-Mormons. He sent me a picture of his dog tags saying he and they show that it says atheist on them. So that's something you can do. Rondale, I guess, maybe didn't know that or whatever. It doesn't matter. But he sent me that. And thanks for the helpful tidbit of information. So, yeah, I guess you can. Maybe you didn't used to be able to or something, but you can get atheist on your dog tags, so uh, thank you for that.

0:37:21 Thomas: And uh, let's see, I want to thank my patrons. You know, I man, I wish I could thank you even harder than I do now because I really appreciate you guys and your support and it, it means so much to me. I'm blown away by it. Um, so I'm gonna go ahead and see, I did, we have a new patron, let me check. Um, no, I think I already thanked Tyler Holson back for coming back. So I think we're good. No new patrons this week, but hey, you could change that. Yeah, you listening. Patreon.com/atheist. Become someone like, I don't know, Zimu Zinu or Adrian Borschoff or Michael or Jonathan Moyet or Havard S or Jay Aldenwalter. Bangs Naughty Bits.

0:38:07 Thomas: One of those amazing people. Thank you so much, you guys. Or you could be like Peter Skelton, Brian Ryan Gareford, Dale, Matt Garrett, and even Samantha. Honorable mention to Samantha. Thank you guys so much for being my supporters, supporting the show, keeping it going, and all that. I just, it's amazing. You guys are the best. So, if you want to support the show, like I said, patreon.com/atheist. And get that bonus content. There's one every week with Jake. And I'm releasing it like Friday, Saturday, sometime like that. And look forward to that, every, every time, you know, or whatever your motivation, I appreciate it. Well, with that said, uh, that's the end of another week, so I will see you guys on the flip side. That means later.