AS145: Ex-Mormon, Rondale

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:31 Microphone: Hello and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 145 and I'm your host Thomas Smith. Okay, before we get to our guest for this week, I wanted to talk a little bit about last week. It's really odd. I think it was an interesting chance to get a sense for what some of my listeners think of theists of any kind. Because I got a lot of negative comments about Elijah being on the show, which frankly surprises me. I'm very thankful for people who tried to help me out with arguments, point out things I might have missed, that sort of thing. I'll be honest, I didn't think there was too much I missed.

0:01:18 Microphone: There was some stuff I might not have said. There were a lot of people who said, why didn't you challenge him on this? Why didn't he challenge him? And some of these things were kind of irrelevant to the discussion. They're like, why don't you challenged the fact that his worldview is not based on evidence? And it's like, well, yeah, I mean, that's that's a basic debate we could have. I mean, the fact that he believes in God, I don't. We could debate that. But frankly, he wasn't on the show for that debate. I invited him on the show because I had seen some posts that he had about bad arguments that atheists make. And guess what? Sometimes atheists do make bad arguments. I think I defended those pretty well. I think that some of the ones he said were totally appropriate and some I don't think quite made it.

0:02:04 Microphone: I want to point out one thing. He did later say that he was wrong about the argument being evidence. That was one I think I got him on that a lot of people also, you know, commented and said they agreed with me. A bad argument is not evidence of anything. He tweeted at me at some point, you can try to check the replies if you want, but he said something like, yeah, it would be the phenomenon of fine-tuning or whatever it is, the phenomenon of the world or the universe coming into existence, I think. That would be, he considers that evidence for God. Now, I actually still disagree, but that's a different discussion. I think he misspoke when he said the argument is evidence, because it's not.

0:02:49 Microphone: But anyway, I think that's an interesting discussion. I think it was fun to have someone who believes in God come on the show and talk, and I was, I don't know, I was a little puzzled by some of the comments. It was weird. Do you guys just not like talking to Christians at all? If I'm not taking a tone of like constant attack, then is that not good? I don't get it. Honestly, now again, as always, I'm just reacting to, I don't know, a dozen people out of everyone that listens to the show. And so I don't know if that's indicative of everyone. But it does seem like there was a tone to a lot of the comments I read that were like, if I'm not constantly attacking his Christian worldview, then I'm, I'm Not doing my job, or I'm not, you know, I shouldn't have him on the show unless I'm going to do that.

0:03:43 Microphone: And I just, I that's not what I invited him on for. And that's, I mean, I'll try, I could try to have a debate with him about some other stuff sometimes, like pick a topic and have a debate. But he's, he's reluctant to do any sort of formal debate, because he doesn't want to do the, uh, he, he overprepares or something. So he, every time I've asked him, he says he doesn't want to do that kind of thing, but he'll come on for a discussion. And honestly, I relish the opportunity to talk to anyone who believes in God at any time. It's, I think it's a privilege to get to try to engage someone with those arguments. And I don't know, I'm not going to be an asshole. I was going to go, I was gonna have him on for what he wanted to talk about. And I, I think I fought him back on on the things that I disagreed with him on. So I don't know. It was a little weird. But what I want to do is I think I want to have a few people.

0:04:32 Microphone: I've already got one, maybe two listeners, one or two, signed on to maybe have a little Skype discussion about what you thought of the Elijah T appearance. And so let me know if you'd like to be on that list, if you would like to come on the show briefly briefly via Skype, via Google Hangouts, whatever it is, and give me your rundown of what you thought he said that was wrong, whatever you want, whatever arguments you thought that were wrong and why. I'd really like to get that side of things because, I don't know, maybe I didn't address enough things or something. But anyway, shoot me an email or any sort of message, atheisticallyspeakingatgmail.com.

0:05:18 Microphone: I'd like to have you on, on. So even if you have like one thing, even if you're a listener out there who's like, I've got one thing that I know Thomas should have said or that Elijah was wrong about. That's fine. Come on for five minutes. Talk about one thing or whatever. I think it'd be cool. It'd be a fun thing to do. So that's all I wanted to say. I love the shows. Personally, those were like some of my favorite shows I've done because I felt like I had someone on. We had a constructive dialogue and I think, I don't know. It was amicable and I, I think he will come back on. So that's that I want to do as much as I can without being an asshole and scaring someone away from ever participating in the show again. So that those are my thoughts. So, you know, without further ado, let's get to this week's topic and this week's guest.

0:06:18 Microphone: Well, several months back, I had two Mormons on, Bill and Gerald, I think, were their names, and then several months after that I had a female Mormon on to kind of give a different, well, ex-Mormon, I should say, to give a different point of view, and, I have been given him the opportunity to talk to another voice in the ex-Mormon community, and I'll let him introduce himself.

[0:06:40] GUEST1: Hi, my name is Rondell Williams, um, I was formerly in the Mormon, or part of the LDS church for about two years, um yeah, nice to speak to you, Tom, Nice to speak to you. And two years, huh? Now I got to [0:06:55] GUEST1: yeah, ask.

[0:06:57] GUEST1: nope, Well, we'll have to get into it. Let's go back to the beginning. I always want to know how these things developed. It sounds like you weren't raised in the church then, I'm guessing.

[0:07:09] GUEST1: not at all, uh, I grew up in a fairly secular home, my mom claimed to be Catholic, but we never went to church every Sunday, at Hmm.

[0:07:16] GUEST1: all so, Yeah, okay. [0:07:18] GUEST1: Um... yeah, that was pretty much my childhood, uh as far as religion goes, uh so yeah, I spent most of my my years you know just being a regular old guy. I always believed in God and whatnot, but we weren't a part of any Christian sect or anything like that, correct.

0:07:34 Microphone: So sort of casual belief in God, but no, didn't really go to church kind [0:07:39] GUEST1: Yeah. Of kind of a deist, I guess, would you say? Interesting. [0:07:41] GUEST1: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

0:07:43 Microphone: Hmm. [0:07:43] GUEST1: Like, I remember as a child we would have people in our neighborhood that would take us to like a vacation Bible school and Oh. [0:07:51] GUEST1: whatnot, and my mom was like totally okay with it. I remember like we constantly had a lot of especially older people, you know, talking to us about God or anything like, you know, and everything like that. But uh, my mom never, you know, pushed anything on us. Of course, there's always like the common, you know, cultural sayings like God bless you or, you know, thank God, or if there was a holiday that came around, you know, um, people prayed at, you know, Christmas dinners or Thanksgiving giving dinners. I even remember for a period of time, my mom thought, you know, our house was possessed by demons. And Wow. [0:08:29] GUEST1: so, yeah.

0:08:30 Microphone: Yeah. [0:08:30] GUEST1: And, and so my grandmother is a very, you know, she doesn't go to church anymore, but she's like a really strong Catholic believer. And so she had her come over and bless the house and everything like that. And of course, nothing changed. We still had What? [0:08:43] GUEST1: like a run, a bad luck, no.

0:08:45 Microphone: Yeah, I was gonna say, what led her to believe that the house was possessed by demons? Was it just your really, really bad behavior. [0:08:51] GUEST1: No, no, not at Well, [0:08:54] GUEST1: all. So what happened, we had moved into this new house and um, I'm originally from um, Hartford, Connecticut, uh, and so uh, we had a ton of bad things happen. Like we had uh, a pipe that busted on our toilet, um, some money was stolen from my mom by somebody that helped her move or helped us move into the house, um, so it's like little things. That's [0:09:16] GUEST1: like gotta be [0:09:16] GUEST1: that a [0:09:17] GUEST1: right. Demon. Yeah.

[0:09:18] GUEST1: Exactly right, uh, I'm That's unfortunate, [0:09:20] GUEST1: right. But yeah, that's, that'S interesting. I didn't, I never, I wouldn't have thought of that as a, as a possible solution. Come have the [0:09:28] GUEST1: Exactly. House blessed. Interesting.

[0:09:29] GUEST1: Right, exactly. So, so really it was just like a slew of bad things that just happened, um, when we first moved to the house that made her think that, you know, maybe um, someone had, was doing something bad to us. Also, I remember, um, around the same time I had a cousin who committed suicide and Oh, wow.

[0:09:47] GUEST1: one of the ladies that came to the the funeral, I remember, um, she was from, I want to say, the Dominican Republic, and my mom and a bunch of other people in our family thought she practiced black magic, um, and so they thought that, well, maybe somehow there's a curse over the family. And my mum had lent this lady a raincoat, um, I remember on the day of the funeral. And so uh, yeah, my mom just thought like, all this crazy woo stuff. And uh, so that's, so that was pretty much the reason why she had the house blessed. And of course, nothing, thing changed afterwards. Well.

0:10:20 Microphone: What did you think of this at the time? [0:10:23] GUEST1: I remember being a kid just thinking, okay, um, you know, there must really be demons, you know. Right.

[0:10:29] GUEST1: if my Was [0:10:30] GUEST1: yeah. It, did it, was it normal to you? I mean, did you just accepted it because that's you, [0:10:34] GUEST1: right. Know, your mom. Yeah, yeah.

[0:10:35] GUEST1: Right, right, it's what your parents, you know, it's right. [0:10:38] GUEST1: my mom, like, obviously my mom knows more than I do, um, and so, or at least at that age she knew, she knew a lot more than I did, um, and so for me I was like, yep, okay, must yeah.

[0:10:48] GUEST1: be demons. And now that, like, I was really, really into comic books when I was a kid and cartoons, and so, um, you know, when you watch those things there's constant portrayals of, you know, demons or devils, or there's talk about God, you know, um, so you know, to be more specific, like, I really like the, I really liked the uh, Daredevil comic, right, and Daredeville is all based around like religion, like he's a guy that's kind of going against God and trying to like, you know, uh, defend the world on his own, and there's a lot of talk of demons and everything like that in the Daredevil comic series. And so, um, you know, for me it's just like, yep, must be demons and my

0:11:28 Microphone: Well. [0:11:28] GUEST1: mom knows more, you know, more than I do, so definitely must I'm [0:11:31] GUEST1: be demons. Glad [0:11:32] GUEST1: right. You didn't blind yourself in an attempt to, you know, turn it like [0:11:35] GUEST1: Yep. All right, I'm gonna deal with these demons. Yeah, interesting. Okay, so at what point did you, I guess, so yeah, okay, so did, how, how long did this last? Did you go all the way through, you know, high school or, okay. [0:11:50] GUEST1: Yep, so Oh. [0:11:51] GUEST1: so it pretty much lasted all the way until college. Um, you know, I was also in the military too, so when I was in the the military, I was, I wasn't a believer. Um, actually, I remember my Oh. [0:12:01] GUEST1: my, I actually remember my dog tag saying that I had no specific religion, they say something like that.

0:12:07 Microphone: Interesting. [0:12:07] GUEST1: Um, and Well. [0:12:08] GUEST1: yeah. That, that's [0:12:09] GUEST1: well. Weird, so wait, you think, you, uh, the way you remember it, you weren't a believer already, or you got a dog in [0:12:16] GUEST1: like the background [0:12:16] GUEST1: okay. Right.

[0:12:16] GUEST1: so, so yeah, so let me be more clear about that. So, according to the military, since I listed on my, you know, application, I forget, like, the whole process and whatnot, since I looked at on my application I had not specific religion, uh, on my dog tags they automatically put that, like, there's no religion specified. Now, I was a believer, like, I did think that Okay.

[0:12:36] GUEST1: there was a God, that [0:12:37] GUEST1: um, and everything like that at that time, and I remember actually being like angry when I got my dog tag because I'm like, yes, I do believe in something, like, why does my, you know, dog tag say no religion, you know? And I would constantly go around like telling friends, like, no, I am religious, like, I am Christian, don't worry about it. It Was a really loud noise that just happened. I don't know what that was about, but [0:12:56] GUEST1: was

0:12:56 Microphone: Uh, [0:12:57] GUEST1: probably Okay. [0:12:57] GUEST1: my dog, sorry Yeah. [0:12:59] GUEST1: about that. That's interesting, so I guess they didn't have any dog tag for, or, you know, any nomenclature for like general believer, [0:13:09] GUEST1: right. But not, yeah, [0:13:10] GUEST1: right. I guess no specific [0:13:11] GUEST1: It's religion. Now, would they, do you know? Is that different than what they would put for atheists? Would they put something else? Would they but like, no belief? Or is that the same as what they would but for an atheist? [0:13:23] GUEST1: The same thing that they would put for an atheist, I Okay. [0:13:25] GUEST1: think there's actually, I think now there's actually a movement to get that changed, um, I believe like the Freedom From Religion Foundation, or maybe one of the other uh, military, like, non-believer, um, organizations, they're, they're actually fighting now to try to get atheists put on dog tags.

0:13:42 Microphone: Okay, yeah, I think I've heard something about that. Okay, so, so you, you maintain that general kind of belief through, uh, sounds like through college, military, and all that. Now, at what point do the, uh, do the missionaries come a knocking?

[0:13:58] GUEST1: Okay, all right, so this Yeah. [0:14:00] GUEST1: is the very interesting part. So, um, I was at the tail end of my college career and I remember I was talking to this girl, and she wanted to know about God, and because I never really grew up with religion, and I always wanted to be closer to God, quote-unquote, I was like, yeah, let's do it.

And so one day she actually had some Mormon missionaries that knocked on her door, and she was like, she invited me over for a Bible study session that they had at her house. And I was like buying, I pretty much bought the whole thing, hook the sinker, right? I was like, yeah, this is true. And they were just telling us how, yeah, you know, we're the true religion, we are God's true religion and everything like that.

And I was like, yes, finally, you know, I found the right thing. [0:14:47] GUEST1: this must be God talking to me right now to come and, you know, join this church. And, you know, that was really what I believed at that time. So, you know, I kind of, I didn't have the Mormons actually knock on my door, but I kind of joined them through proxy, right? So like

0:15:00 Microphone: It [0:15:00] GUEST1: I sounds, you [0:15:00] GUEST1: said, know, there's always a girl involved. [0:15:02] GUEST1: yep. That's. I was [0:15:04] GUEST1: Yeah, yeah. And so that girl actually ended up not joining the church. She actually got pregnant by by someone else, um. Gonna [0:15:13] GUEST1: Yeah. Say, if it was by you. I was, good I was going to laugh at the way you phrased that, but no, no, never [0:15:17] GUEST1: Yeah. Mind.

[0:15:18] GUEST1: Yeah, so she ended up getting pregnant by someone else, but I still stuck with it because the two Mormon missionaries that I met, they're like young and cool, and I think that's kind of like one of the ways that they kind of get you into it.

If you're a young person, you know, you meet these two cool, you know, cool guys that come knocking on your door, they're very hip, you know, they're young and they're, you know, like they take you to, you know, to the movies, you go out to to dinner with them, you say, hey, like if the people in this church are this cool, I must join this church.

And not only that, like they're telling me this is the, you know, this is God's true church on earth and whatnot. So I must do this. And that was pretty much what compelled me to actually join.

0:15:55 Microphone: So can you remember anything specific? Because they must not have, I mean, they must not have gotten into the weirder details of Mormonism, [0:16:03] GUEST1: No, right? [0:16:04] GUEST1: not at all. Not So [0:16:05] GUEST1: at all, what [0:16:06] GUEST1: yeah. Specifically appealed to you that you remember from their pitch?

[0:16:10] GUEST1: So, I remember like them just telling me that, well, like the Bible isn't the only source of like justification for God's belief, right? You also have the Book of Mormon that talks about how Jesus revealed himself to people in the Western Hemisphere and whatnot. And the reason why that specifically appealed to me, because I remember growing up and going to vacation Bible school and reading stories or hearing stories out of the Bible and be like, no, this can't be real, right. So I still held the belief, but I remember hearing both stories like Noah's Ark and be like, nah, this this can't be real.

And I remember also being a kid and I was thinking about, okay well, if God, or, or excuse me, if Jesus, um, was [0:16:55] GUEST1: around, and, you know, if he lived in the Middle East, then how would people in like the Western Hemisphere, you know, know about him? Of course those people existed around the same time Jesus existed in the in the Middle East, so how in the world would, like, like the Aztec Indians, or, you know, how in the world would anybody that lived in the Western Hemisphere ever know about them? So when the Mormons came along and said, hey, look, in the Book of Mormon, we actually, you don't talk about that. I was like, okay, I was, like, okay, that's the real answer. There you go. Like, they have all the answers. And so that's what really sold me on the Mormon religion.

0:17:31 Microphone: Okay. I think it's a little funny that you found some Bible stories unbelievable, but then you believe [0:17:39] GUEST1: Right? The Mormon stories. [0:17:41] GUEST1: Yeah, some true cognitive dissonance Yeah. [0:17:43] GUEST1: going, you Yeah. [0:17:44] GUEST1: know, Yeah. [0:17:44] GUEST1: going on there. And, and of course, like, when I first joined, like most believers, like I didn't read the entire Book of Mormon, um, The fine print. [0:17:51] GUEST1: Right.

0:17:51 Microphone: Right. [0:17:52] GUEST1: Exactly, like I pretty much just bought whatever they told me, um, which is what I think, you know, most people do, whether Now. [0:17:58] GUEST1: it's Mormonism, Islam, or Christianity too.

0:18:01 Microphone: I'm guessing this was before, what is it, '19, or after 1978, or 1972? [0:18:07] GUEST1: Yeah. Yeah. [0:18:08] GUEST1: Yeah, yeah. And [0:18:10] GUEST1: So, all right. She [0:18:11] GUEST1: It's a really funny story about that, right? Okay, so being, being African-American and joining, like, you know, of course, the church is predominantly white. And I had a problem with that. Like, I grew up with white friends and all that, so that wasn't a big issue. But I remember one day, so I started dating a new girl, and I remember her asking me about the religion, right? So she started asking me, well, like – she wasn't, so what was she, any, uh, Christian? [0:18:39] GUEST1: was Or, okay. [0:18:40] GUEST1: just, like a very secular Christian, right.

0:18:43 Microphone: I [0:18:43] GUEST1: She held a very loose belief in God. And so I remember her asking me about, like, well, what is, you know, why aren't there, like a lot of black people or whatever? And so, you Know, I started asking some people in the Mormon church that I knew about, Like, You know, Why aren't they more blacks or whatever. And, You Know, they, of course, give you that pitch that, Like, well, you know, that's because, you Can [0:19:07] GUEST1: Now, Imagine [0:19:07] GUEST1: We Just.

0:19:07 Microphone: I can imagine this. Whoever you're asking, just sweating bullets, just [0:19:10] GUEST1: Yeah.

0:19:10 Microphone: Like, uh, well. [0:19:11] GUEST1: Yep. Yep. Yep.

0:19:13 Microphone: Uh. [0:19:15] GUEST1: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, uh, they couldn't give me any like real answer. Like, I remember the answer was just like, well, you know, we try to reach out to everybody and it was pretty much like, well, whoever joins, joins, you knows, at the end of the day, God, you Know, will decide if they were correct in believing the right thing. Right.

0:19:30 Microphone: Yeah. [0:19:31] GUEST1: And I'm like, So [0:19:32] GUEST1: uh okay. So this is when, you know being a college student, um, at a time or just graduated from college and did [0:19:38] GUEST1: I'm saying like, you sorry, just to get a quick storyline thing. So did you go straight to the military and then to college after? Is [0:19:46] GUEST1: So, that? [0:19:46] GUEST1: I went to college, um, and then after college, uh, I joined the military. So I spent a semester in college, and then at that one semester, I joined military, and then went back to college.

0:19:57 Microphone: Okay, yeah, [0:19:58] GUEST1: Yep. Gotcha. [0:19:59] GUEST1: Yep, so I joined, uh, reserves, so, Gotcha. [0:20:01] GUEST1: I didn't have like a long active duty period, um, so, so anyways, going back to the story.

0:20:07 Microphone: Sure. [0:20:07] GUEST1: Um, I remember doing my research and finding out that, you know, the the Mormons didn't allow a black man to get to priesthood until about 1972, 76, somewhere in the 70s. Different sources I looked up had different answers. And I remember thinking to myself, well, this can't be God's true church. There's no way in hell that this could be God's true church, because why would an all-loving God ever discriminate against any people, right?

0:20:35 Microphone: Yeah, [0:20:36] GUEST1: And yeah. [0:20:36] GUEST1: then I remember going to the Book of Mormon, and I can't remember the exact story, You may know a lot better than I do at this point, but I remember there being a story about how the reason why there are Black people was because we did something bad, and so we got the mark of something. And I'm like, what? This is preposterous. Are you serious? That's why we couldn't get to priesthood until the 1970s. And then I remember going back to some of my Mormon friends. I actually had another Black Mormon friend at the time, and him telling me, well, that's not true at all.

[0:21:13] GUEST1: Here's the source to tell you that, well, there was actually a Black guy who got the priesthood back during the 1800s, and I left with that guy, and that was all, it was all false. Um, and Yeah.

[0:21:24] GUEST1: So, I was, so I'm like, okay, I was like, well, but I still have to believe in God, right? So then, this, this girl that I was dating at the time, going back to her, she kept asking me about, like, you know, so I would tell her about the priesthood. And I had, like, I remember at this time when I was telling her about the priesthood, I had just gained a priesthood, right? Which means that, like, you're able to go to, like, the Mormon, um, temple. You're able to conduct certain ceremonies, so, like, you know, like they have, like, the, the prayer for the dead or whatnot, where they allow the dead people to kind of get into, get

0:21:53 Microphone: Wait, [0:21:53] GUEST1: into heaven, you [0:21:53] GUEST1: through you [0:21:54] GUEST1: proxy, no. You did this? So? [0:21:56] GUEST1: I, I didn't get the opportunity, but I gained a priesthood, would, would have allowed me to get the Oh, [0:22:01] GUEST1: opportunity to so wait.

[0:22:03] GUEST1: do So [0:22:03] GUEST1: that. So this is, everyone I've talked to so far, I just realized had been raised Mormon. So I guess the track you go down is a little different if you, because you don't have the typical, like, missionary kind of track, [0:22:15] GUEST1: Right, right. Where.

[0:22:16] GUEST1: Right. Yeah. [0:22:17] GUEST1: Exactly, so, So [0:22:18] GUEST1: but like, is [0:22:18] GUEST1: Yeah, this a normal thing? I'm just asking, like, do [0:22:21] GUEST1: so, all Mormon converts go through this process or was this something you wanted to do separately?

[0:22:28] GUEST1: From the way, um, so, like, from, like, the process that I took, it seemed like it was a normal process, because I joined the church, and if I remember correctly, there were, like, different stages to the priesthood, right? So, so, Right.

[0:22:40] GUEST1: so there's not, like, one type of priesthood where, like, as soon as you get it, you're able to do anything. So, like, you have, like, priesthood level one, where you get to do some things, and get priesthood, you know, level two, where This [0:22:51] GUEST1: you is [0:22:52] GUEST1: can like Scientology. [0:22:52] GUEST1: do more things, right, right.

0:22:54 Microphone: But [0:22:54] GUEST1: Exactly. I [0:22:54] GUEST1: Yeah. Guess what I'm asking is, is this [0:22:56] GUEST1: Yeah. Something that everyone did or is this something you wanted to do specifically? You know what I mean? Like, can you just be [0:23:03] GUEST1: Right. A Mormon and just not do any of this? Or is this Something that every convert has to go through? Like you have to go Through these levels. [0:23:10] GUEST1: It seemed like it's something that every convert has to go through.

0:23:13 Microphone: Okay. [0:23:13] GUEST1: Um, it I [0:23:14] GUEST1: doesn't seem like it's something like you're about to, like, turn down. So it's not like they approach you one day and they say, hey, like, hey, Mr. Williams, you know, we think, uh, you're ready for the priesthood, do you want it or do you not want it. There's nothing like that. Like, I remember my bishop, um, telling me that, hey, you know, Rondell, like, it's time for you to, uh, you know, move into the priesthead stage, and so you're able to do this and that.

And I remember him sitting down with me and kind of explained to me what that entailed, and that's where it pretty much went, you know, went, like, it wasn't like, uh, it was, it, it didn't feel like a choice, it just felt like, okay, well, you're a man in my church, you're, you're a male, and so you have to do this thing. Wonder if they really wanted you to, just to be able [0:23:55] GUEST1: Yep. To have more examples. They were like, Hey, look at this guy. I got the priesthood. Come on. We're, [0:24:00] GUEST1: Yeah. Cool, we're all, yeah.

[0:24:01] GUEST1: Yes. We're diverse. [0:24:02] GUEST1: Probably. Yeah. [0:24:04] GUEST1: Probably. Yeah. [0:24:05] GUEST1: Um, and so I remember explaining that to the girl that I was dating at the time, and she was like, well, can females get the priesthood? And I was like, uh, no.

0:24:17 Microphone: Yeah. [0:24:17] GUEST1: Females cannot get the priesthead. And I also, and so she kept asking a bunch of questions, she was like, why, like, that doesn't seem fair. And I was like, in the back of my head, like, no, it does not seem fair, like, why can't females get it?

So then I went to, um, one of my, you know, one of mine, uh, I went, another, I went on a female in church and I asked her about it, and she's just like, well, that's because in the Mormon church, you know, like, the two sexes have different roles, right? So men gain a priesthood, and then women are kind of expected to, um, take care of their family, kind of support their husbands in the priesthood.

You know, they're expected to go to everybody's home and kind of preach the gospel to everyone, right? It's like they didn't have, like, the same authority that the men did. And I remember thinking in my head, like, that's, that's just wrong, you know, like, uh, I don't think you have to be a feminist to even see, like, that's Oh, [0:25:07] GUEST1: it's wrong, like, it doesn't make any sense, like, why would God only grant that, you know, power to, to men and whatnot. And so I remember, after that, just doing more research and just thinking to myself, like, nope, this can't be real.

And, and it was pretty much also at that point where I became an atheist also, because I remember, um, when I was looking at, uh, stuff to kind of learn more about the Mormon church, like, about why there aren't more Blacks, you know, kind of like the history, um, of African-Americans and, or just Black people in general, and the, uh, LDS church, and I started finding more things about, like, why God wasn't real. So I remember, like, running across things by, uh, Sam Harris. Sam Harrison's, like, the biggest influence

0:25:52 Microphone: Wow. [0:25:52] GUEST1: um, so, [0:25:53] GUEST1: on me at the time. And then, like, you know, I started fighting out about podcasts, uh, so I, I remember, like, just listening what [0:26:00] GUEST1: to, what year [0:26:00] GUEST1: so are we talking?

[0:26:02] GUEST1: this is around like maybe 2011, around Okay, pretty recent. [0:26:07] GUEST1: 2010, Yeah, yeah. [0:26:09] GUEST1: 2011. And so I remember just being like, you know what? I don't believe in God anymore. Like these people actually make a very good argument. I knew quite a bit about the Bible, like I said, from as a child going to vacation Bible study, being in a Mormon church, like you had to read the Book of Mormon. Mormon. You also have to read the Bible.

I know on some of the past episodes, a lot of people said that the Bible wasn't strongly emphasized for them growing up in the Mormon church, but I remember the particular Mormon community I was in, the Bible was really emphasized. I always heard that, well, you can't just read the Book of Mormon without the Bible, you have to know the Bible and read the Book of Mormon. Of course, because the Book of Mormon is, you know, the LDS Church's, you know, go-to book.

[0:27:00] GUEST1: Of course, that was, like, kind of given more emphasis over the Bible, but I was kind of always taught, like you couldn't have both without, you couldn t have one without

0:27:09 Microphone: That's [0:27:09] GUEST1: the other. And so, yeah, so I remember, like you know just knowing stories, I heard about the Bible and like the way, you know, a very popular atheist talked about them and like, you you know, like the falsehoods within those books, I just said to myself, no, this God thing can't be real. And even for a while, though, I remember even as a child, having like thoughts about, [0:27:33] GUEST1: you know God not really being real. So I remember one time being one, like my mother had a friend that would take us to school every day. And I remember sitting in the car, you know one day asking her, well, how come birds can land on electrical lines and not get electrocuted, but if a human being was to test them, we would get electrocuted. And I remember the lady telling us, well, that's because God made them that way. And I remembered saying to myself, like, no, there has to be more a little [0:28:02] GUEST1: to that. Too easy of an answer.

[0:28:04] GUEST1: Yeah, Yeah, that's [0:28:04] GUEST1: exactly. And I remember saying to myself, like, no, it has to be more than that. And then I remember, it was funny, like right around that same time, I remember at my school that I grew up in, we had a fire, like a group of firefighters, uh, come to our school, and somebody asked them that question, and a firefighter was like, well, that's because, you know, birds, their feet are grounded, and so, therefore, because of that, they don't get electrocuted, and that's funny [0:28:30] GUEST1: why, because [0:28:31] GUEST1: really, actually I think that's wrong too, well, [0:28:33] GUEST1: well, I guess, I [0:28:34] GUEST1: I guess, do [0:28:34] GUEST1: I got two know [0:28:34] GUEST1: bad that [0:28:34] GUEST1: answers.

0:28:35 Microphone: If two [0:28:35] GUEST1: okay birds touch, touch each other on a wire, then they get electrocuted. And I think it's because it completes a circuit, but it has to do with, like, [0:28:42] GUEST1: Okay. Resistance. I think there's a way that we could touch a wire where we wouldn't get, it has to do with it. Like if you grab it with two hands, then it makes a circuit and you have less resistance. But I don't know. That's what I I remember, but [0:28:57] GUEST1: Okay. Either way, [0:28:57] GUEST1: Right. God didn't do it.

[0:28:59] GUEST1: Right, right, either We, [0:29:00] GUEST1: way. Yeah. [0:29:00] GUEST1: Right, exactly, either way, uh, there's a much better explanation for Yeah. [0:29:05] GUEST1: that, right. And so, um, I remember even as a kid, just, like, having these, like, thoughts about, you know, okay, that's not, that didn't sound right, but Yeah, [0:29:14] GUEST1: um, wow.

[0:29:14] GUEST1: but as I was exiting out of Mormonism, you know, I still kind of held on, like, to a small belief. I remember having a friend and talking to them one day about, like, how I felt about God, and, uh, she's a hardcore Christian, and I remember telling her, she was like, well, they still believe in God. I was like, uh, I don't know, like, I think there's something out there, but I just don't know.

But, like I said, uh, I definitely live a life now where, uh, it's evidence-based. I see no evidence to believe in a God. It's a small, you know, possibility, yes, probably 0.0001 percent of a possibility, if you ask me. But, um, you know, that's where I eventually came to, and, you know, uh, that's how I kind of got into, uh, atheism. Yep.

0:29:59 Microphone: So, you went pretty quickly from, so you converted to Mormonism, and you said it was a couple years, and [0:30:05] GUEST1: Yep.

0:30:06 Microphone: Then, you know, with, again, with the aid of a girl, I think women often aid in these things, for both ways. It's like, yeah, you know, I've, I've almost converted for a girl once, way back in [0:30:21] GUEST1: Yep. The day, um, [0:30:23] GUEST1: They'll, they'll make you do it, definitely.

0:30:26 Microphone: Yeah, but then, but then it goes the other way. She was asking you some questions about, know, black people in the church, or, and and women for that matter, and it sounds like you really quickly, how long was that process of, you know, going from a Mormon who was about to, I guess you, you said you made it into one level of the the priesthood, right?

[0:30:45] GUEST1: Yep, I, um, I did, so from the beginning of my Mormon, you know, uh, from getting baptized uh in the Mormon church, uh, it took me about maybe a period of two months, I, if I remember correctly, to actually gain like the first level of the priesthood, um, which to me was really quickly, uh, that kind of also rubbed me the wrong way. I was like, wow, like you guys already given me all of this, uh, I'm [0:31:12] GUEST1: responsibility. Telling you, [0:31:13] GUEST1: Yeah. Man, I'm, I've telling you they just, they probably wanted to use your image, man. I bet you anything.

[0:31:18] GUEST1: Yeah, I mean, it probably was that, uh, and, and And what's funny about that, too, is I remember the missionaries that lived in the same vicinity of where I lived, they would actually call me to constantly go out with them to other people's houses to talk about the goodness of the Book of Mormon. And it's I [0:31:38] GUEST1: funny, I never looked at it that way. I never look at it like maybe I was kind of like the poster boy for Black Mormonism.

0:31:46 Microphone: Wouldn't be surprised. I mean, there's no way to know, but I would not be [0:31:49] GUEST1: Right. Surprised because of how the image problems they've had, you know? And, [0:31:52] GUEST1: Yep. And the fact that whenever you see a Mormon advertisement, it's so diverse and it's [0:31:58] GUEST1: Yep. Like, Like, come on, who are you fooling? You guys are like 95% white, I bet. Well, okay, I don't know the actual statistics, but I do know they are very, very high percentage white. But it's funny. [0:32:10] GUEST1: Yep.

0:32:10 Microphone: It's like, there's no way that picture is a good representation of their actual demographics. [0:32:16] GUEST1: Yep. But [0:32:17] GUEST1: And, that's [0:32:17] GUEST1: and what's interesting. [0:32:18] GUEST1: Funny too, and it was funny too, is I remember, like, the days I would go out with them to different people's houses to talk about the Book of Mormon and whatnot. Like, there, it was always like the homes of minorities. So, Hmm, [0:32:30] GUEST1: you right, [0:32:30] GUEST1: know, I, yeah. [0:32:31] GUEST1: I think, I think your theory is right on.

0:32:34 Microphone: That's [0:32:34] GUEST1: Um, yeah. So funny. [0:32:36] GUEST1: Yeah, I definitely think there is right on and so, um, actually, funny story about that. I actually remember, like, there was one day I went out with them and, uh, there's actually a guy that we approached. I remember I thought he was so rude and mean, and I remember the guy answering the door and said, like, "No, I'm an atheist, like, I don't believe in your crap." Yeah, I remember Ah, [0:32:53] GUEST1: that, um, happening probably.

[0:32:54] GUEST1: and I was like, "Oh my God, that guy must be possessed by the devil," right? Because Probably. [0:32:58] GUEST1: because I, I mean, you know, that's what you're taught, like, growing up. Even if you are, like – kind of like this secular Christian, you hear that somebody's an atheist. And I say even – I don't know how it is in, like, the Caucasian community, but, like, I know in a black community, I kind of feel like if you say you're an atheist, you're kind of almost put into, like, this other camp, right? Like there's something wrong with you. You must be possessed by demons or something like that. The devil has ownership of your soul.

0:33:28 Microphone: I [0:33:28] GUEST1: Like, yeah. Wouldn't be surprised if it was a lot worse in the black community, just from what I know. [0:33:33] GUEST1: Yeah.

0:33:33 Microphone: I mean, just, just anecdotally, from what, from people I've talked to, it does sound like it's much more of a stigma in the black community [0:33:40] GUEST1: Yeah. To say you're an atheist, and maybe you [0:33:43] GUEST1: Oh, could attest to that. But in the white [0:33:45] GUEST1: Yeah, community [0:33:45] GUEST1: Mm-hmm. From or in my white community, because I mean any community obviously is vastly diverse and it's not not just one [0:33:52] GUEST1: Yeah, thing, but in sort of the culture I'm in, it's still a big deal, but I really don't think it's as big a deal as it is in the black community based on what I've heard. I don't know. What do you think?

[0:34:06] GUEST1: Um, so, yeah, I mean, like, I've had, you know, friends like that have not really stopped talking to me, but, like, the communication with me has has been less frequent since I've, you know, came out as an atheist. Um, you know, for example, like Like, I'm married now, and my wife is also African-American, half Hispanic, and there are plenty of times where I'm told to, like, you know, do our family functions. Like, "No, just play along with us. Pray, because I don't want you to be an outcast,"

0:34:41 Microphone: Right. [0:34:41] GUEST1: you Know, when we're around my family. And I also remember, like you know dating a girl, going on a date with a girl once, and I told her, like hey, you You know, I really, I don't remember exactly how we got to talk about religion at all. But she found out I was, you know, not, she found that I was a non-believer. I'll put it that way.

0:35:03 Microphone: Sure. [0:35:04] GUEST1: Because we never brought up the word atheist and whatnot. And I remember her telling me, I remember sitting in the car with her, dropping her off after the date that we went to. The date went beautifully. I remember saying, oh, my God, it's one of the best dates I went on. But you're not a believer, so we can't continue to talk.

0:35:19 Microphone: Oh [0:35:19] GUEST1: Yeah. Man. Yeah. [0:35:21] GUEST1: and she was also a black girl and, um, yeah, I mean, so it And [0:35:27] GUEST1: Is it you [0:35:27] GUEST1: Is said [0:35:28] GUEST1: Pretty you were raised in Connecticut. Roughly, where are you nowadays?

[0:35:30] GUEST1: Yep, uh, Atlanta, I Atlanta. [0:35:32] GUEST1: currently Okay. [0:35:33] GUEST1: live in Well, [0:35:33] GUEST1: Atlantic that's going to be pretty [0:35:34] GUEST1: Yeah, religious, right? I mean, [0:35:35] GUEST1: Yeah, yeah.

[0:35:36] GUEST1: Yeah, oh my gosh, um, but, but, but yeah, so, like, my, like, my family hasn't really been, you know, um, hard on me about Hmm. [0:35:45] GUEST1: it because, like I said, I, I grew who are pretty secular. Um, I do kind of, like, if I bring up anything about it, I do kind of get the side eye, kind of like, "Oh my gosh, okay, Rondell, like, we don't want to hear how dumb our religion is" and something like that, but Yeah. Well, [0:35:59] GUEST1: Um, but, like, my sister, for example, like, me and her kind of joke around about my sister, um, has just started to get back in the church and whatnot, but, like, we'll have jokes about it, and we joke back and forth about it, about

0:36:11 Microphone: That's good. [0:36:12] GUEST1: how She's [0:36:12] GUEST1: Yeah, pretty [0:36:12] GUEST1: about open [0:36:13] GUEST1: how many about [0:36:13] GUEST1: atheists it. [0:36:13] GUEST1: she's Yeah, [0:36:13] GUEST1: Yeah, yeah, like, she doesn't care. She's like, "Whatever, like, you're my brother, like, it doesn't matter." I'm yeah, [0:36:18] GUEST1: not gonna and [0:36:19] GUEST1: like hopefully, [0:36:19] GUEST1: you know, stop hopefully, [0:36:19] GUEST1: talking to you you know, as generations progress, it seems like people are getting more cool with atheism and non-religion, [0:36:27] GUEST1: Yes, but I don't know, in some, in the South, it's a few [0:36:32] GUEST1: So, years back, I think.

[0:36:33] GUEST1: Yeah, yeah be heard on Thursday in Part 2, and I want to remind everyone, Book Club coming up on our first book being over. Anyone in the Book Club, volunteer if you'd like to come on and talk about the first book. I think I already have a few volunteers for that, so that's going to be fun, but I could always use more. I want as many people talking about it as I can, because I think it would make for a really interesting show.

Also, as I said in the beginning, just a reminder, if you'd like to come on in the coming weeks and talk about the Elijah T. arguments, please. I think a lot of people are hesitant because people comment and talk a big talk, but it's not that hard to just come on and do a Skype interview and say a few words. I think people are hesitating sometimes, but I'd encourage you to come On.

0:37:31 Microphone: It's really fun. It's easy. It's no big deal, no pressure, but I think it adds a lot to the show to hear from you guys, so that's what I've been going for, as you can hear with these two messages I've given. Alright, well, thank you for joining me. Thanks so much to Rondale, and I will see you guys on Thursday.