AS142: Armed Peaceful Protests, with Jake Farr-Wharton

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:32 Microphone: Hello and welcome to atheistically speaking. This is episode 142 with your host Thomas Smith. Today we're going to continue the discussion with Jake Farr Wharton, who you may know from that amazing bonus content that we produce every week, which you can find at patreon.com/atheist. Anyway, part two, a bit longer than part one, and we play some clips I read from a very interesting piece written on the whole thing. So let's just get right to it.

0:01:14 Microphone: It's interesting that you brought up the media because I actually, one part of this, I really wanted to hear it. Now, I don't know how much you keep up with this stuff. I really have a hard time watching any sort of cable, any news or just any, well, really any TV that's not like an amazing television show. Like I really have a heart time with TV. Do you have, I dunno, I just want to gauge quickly. Don't not, not too too deep of an answer, but do you keep up with this? Like, I don't know, CNN, uh, you know, Fox news. I know you've probably keep up With Fox news somewhat or hear people talk about it, but CNN and like the kind of coverage, are you abreast of the, of the kind of stuff that CNN covers? [0:01:56] GUEST1: Only through news aggregators.

0:01:58 Microphone: Right. Yeah. Okay. [0:01:59] GUEST1: And Well, [0:02:00] GUEST1: I'll leave yeah, [0:02:00] GUEST1: it at that because, yeah. Yeah, I can yeah. [0:02:02] GUEST1: get much deeper, but yeah.

0:02:04 Microphone: Exactly. And, but I was just curious because I, so there's an Anderson Cooper clip. I don't really know [0:02:09] GUEST1: Oh, much. [0:02:10] GUEST1: yeah, I [0:02:10] GUEST1: yeah. Mean, I know Anderson [0:02:11] GUEST1: I Cooper. [0:02:11] GUEST1: know of, Exactly. [0:02:12] GUEST1: yeah... But I don't, I didn't really know what to expect, but I, I mean, I'm going to play this. I, the whole thing is [0:02:19] GUEST1: Don't you dare, really [0:02:20] GUEST1: ugh, around Anderson Cooper. He is a gorgeous man. Wow. [0:02:23] GUEST1: If I had that face and that hair, oh, my God. Oh, I would just be so... Yeah, he's Well, [0:02:32] GUEST1: gorgeous. He has no eyebrows. I don't know if that's, that's part of [0:02:34] GUEST1: You the look, but [0:02:35] GUEST1: don't well, [0:02:35] GUEST1: need eyebrows when you look like Anderson Cooper, here's the interview. The whole [0:02:39] GUEST1: yeah.

0:02:39 Microphone: Thing is, is like five minutes. I don't know if I'll play the whole thing but uh but this is here, I'm just gonna play it Let's Make Sure we Can hear It Here So

0:02:45 System Audio: ... the event, also with us is former FBI and CIA counterterrorism official, Philip Mudd. Mr. Ritzheimer, I appreciate you being with us, so, you're

0:02:53 Microphone: Sorry I should have said it out more, it's Ritzheimer, is the guy who organized the rally. So first off, it's it's already a little uh weird that, so there's, we've got what has been uh determined to be an asshole, I think is the technical term, in this Ritzheimer. Scientifically he's been diagnosed as an asshole. And he's, [0:03:13] GUEST1: He had a yeah. [0:03:14] GUEST1: severe case of arseholitis, yeah? Yeah.

0:03:17 Microphone: And he's he's going he's planning an event where people are bikers are bringing guns. And and oh, by the way, we should get to the fact that I mean, bikers lately, you may be way more reasonable to be afraid of bikers in this country than Muslims. I just before I don't want to let that one go. So it's a group of bikers. And then we're going to invite him on national TV to kind of get his say. You know, it just already I'm a little uncomfortable. Now, if you balanced it with a Muslim, you know, maybe that that could be interesting. So you can get one side of the story because this is a national thing. It's one thing when it's a podcast and, you know, a couple a couple of nobodies like us are talking. But when it was national [0:04:02] GUEST1: I news, [0:04:03] GUEST1: have paparazzi outside my door, as you said.

0:04:05 Microphone: That doesn't actually mean much. Everybody has, like, there's actually three paparazzi per every citizen in my country. [0:04:12] GUEST1: Ah.

0:04:12 Microphone: So it's it's, yeah, I only have two, so I'm actually, under you know, underrepresented. Let's play this interview and and just the mess that happens. I

0:04:21 System Audio: Encouraging hundreds of armed people to gather outside a mosque during a prayer service, wearing t-shirts saying, F Islam, and I certainly know you have the right to protest, everybody does in this country, but you yourself have said this is a provocation, I know you've compared it to poking a bear, kicking a hornet's nest, [0:04:38] GUEST1: Holy so what are you [0:04:39] GUEST1: shit. Really trying to achieve? Well, I'm really trying to achieve exposing Islam and the truth about what's written in the Koran. You know, people, you know, even Mr. Mudd that's joining us, he's said that he thinks this is a bad idea. And some would probably argue that, you now, the signers that signed the Declaration of Independence was a bad back in their day. So you're comparing yourself to the signer of the Declaration of Independence? Yeah. I just don't want to live in fear. I shouldn't have to live in fear. What are you afraid of? Well, we've received a bunch of credible threats. I've already had the police come to my house. My family's currently packing up, and they're going into hiding. So I understand you don't like Islam.

0:05:25 System Audio: You clearly equate Islam with terrorism. You served in Iraq. You served proudly in the Marines, and we should honor that service. You served and supported an Islamic government in Iraq, So if you hate Islam, how do you justify having done that? Well, the core values of Islam is what I really hate. But you were promoting an Islamic government. You were helping bolster an Islamic governement in Iraq. So why were you doing that? Okay, well, let me answer it like this. I was over there, and I was following orders. So do you feel you were supporting terrorists while you were supporting the Islamic government in Iraq? Do you say the Marines who are fighting in Afghanistan are supporting terrorism as well? No.

0:06:11 System Audio: No, I do not. Let me finish. I was uneducated when I went over there. I was a junior Marine following orders. I was scared, but I wasn't uneducate about Islam. It wasn't until I came home and utilized my 9-11 GI Bill and started

0:06:26 Microphone: Gotta pause it right here. It's an impressive interviewer who can get me to be... on to sympathize with this Ritz guy. Is it just me? Like, I, I'm hearing this interview, I'm thinking I'm not really on on Anderson Cooper's side with whatever the hell nonsense he's trying to get at here. I mean, he's, he's kind of corner. [0:06:49] GUEST1: No, I'm still very much so on the side of humanity.

0:06:54 Microphone: No, [0:06:55] GUEST1: I I, I am too, but it, it, I'm, I, of course, being, uh, being facetious, but he really, in this exchange, if this was all I saw, uh, what is, is really the most important thing? Anderson Cooper is supposed to be like a journalist, right? Or like a trend. You know, the most important thing we're trying to get out of this interview is that Anderson Cooper is going to corner him into saying he thinks Marines are defending terrorism. Like, that's not, even, that's nothing. That's a total nonsense gotcha thing. Obviously, he doesn't think that. What I mean, what do you think he's getting at? Am I crazy? What am I missing? What was Anderson getting [0:07:34] GUEST1: think at?

[0:07:34] GUEST1: the, Yeah. [0:07:35] GUEST1: well, firstly, I would say that it's hilarious that without having heard the comparisons Couldn't [0:07:42] GUEST1: or what the guy had said, he literally said several of the things that I had said during the, anyway. Anyway, so, but yeah, look, he wasn't trying to make a comparison as far as I saw it, but basically he's trying to say, look biker dude, you're basically saying that Islam equals terrorism and you're trying to poke a bear. Well, hey, you were a Marine and you were attempting to support an Islamic government while you were in Iraq. Do you think that they were terrorists? And I think that's a fair question, you know, because, look, a lot of what we want from media, at least a lot of what I want from Media, is for them to ask the questions that make us think. [0:08:28] GUEST1: And that question is an important question, I think. You had a

0:08:33 Microphone: It [0:08:33] GUEST1: job easily [0:08:33] GUEST1: previously. Be answered by just saying, well, in that case, we were, we thought it was the lesser of two evils, done, question answered. I [0:08:40] GUEST1: Yeah, mean, [0:08:41] GUEST1: that's, it's not, [0:08:41] GUEST1: yep. This is just a dumb gotcha thing. I think, I, I don't know, I, I'm, I think that you, you're maybe, uh, I should be a little more charitable in my interpretation. I think, I think I see what you're saying with what he's trying to get at, um, but the way he asks it, it doesn't come across as like a thoughtful thing. It comes across as like, ooh, I, oh, I got you in some stupid word contradiction. [0:09:02] GUEST1: Oh, that, [0:09:02] GUEST1: it is absolutely okay. [0:09:03] GUEST1: A gotcha. It is absolutely, I would not deny that for a second. It is absolutely a gotcha. But I think it's a, it's an apt gotcha considering his previous profession.

0:09:13 Microphone: Could he at least have said, Hey, wasn't it a little odd? Why does he bring in? Do you think all Marines are defending terrorism? Like, why do you, why not just say, what did you think when you were, uh, abroad defending an Islamic government? What did you, What did you think? Are you do you think that was defending terrorism? Why does he have to do the gotcha thing? Do you think millions of our men and women in service right now? Like that's just rhetorical. That's not actually adding any substance to it. And maybe this is what news is, I guess. Do you see what I'm saying, though? I mean, there's [0:09:47] GUEST1: Yeah, I do. I a way [0:09:48] GUEST1: do. You [0:09:48] GUEST1: Absolutely could ask that [0:09:49] GUEST1: Yeah. Question that would have been more interesting, I think. But anyway, I just found that really annoying. Personally, admittedly, not as annoying as the other guy, totally. Ritzheimer, I understand, I'm not, I was joking when I said that, don't, everybody don't email me about that, that was a fair point.

0:10:07 System Audio: Studying. But now that you're allegedly educated on Islam, you were supporting an Islamic government in

0:10:12 Microphone: Maybe

0:10:12 System Audio: Iraq. So are you saying that Marines and others who are currently serving in Afghanistan and elsewhere are supporting terrorists?

0:10:21 System Audio: If their government is going to be run under Sharia law and stuff, then yeah, I don't support that. It's not Sharia Law, but it is an Islamic government. So you believe that all active duty service members right now are supporting terrorism around the world? No, I do not believe that. But they're supporting Islamic governments, and you believe Islam equals terrorism?

0:10:42 System Audio: I do now believe that you don't believe that, that Islam at its core is terrorism.

0:10:47 Microphone: I should have let it go longer. I

0:10:47 System Audio: Oh, Yes, I, true Islam is terrorism. Yes, the ones that are out committing these atrocities and stuff, they're following the book as it's written. So let me bring in Phil. Phil, in terms of what the U.S. is trying to achieve in the Islamic world, what Marines and others are fighting and dying for, do events like this thing that's going to happen tomorrow in Phoenix, do you believe it actually hurts the U.S. outreach to the vast majority of the Muslim world? I see this kind of event, and I look at ISIS, and I know what they're going to say. This is proof that what we're telling you, to recruit you out of Denver, out of Phoenix, out of Los Angeles, out of New York, that, that's true. They talk to you about democracy, free speech, and living with your religion regardless of what it is in America, but they don't live that in practice. Mr. Ritz, I think Phil brings up an interesting point. Aren't you playing into the narrative of ISIS?

0:11:35 Microphone: Gotta say, so that was the other guy, who, you don't even, it doesn't matter who that was, Phil something. [0:11:40] GUEST1: He's He's [0:11:41] GUEST1: a gotcha guy. Yeah, but A, he's, uh, [0:11:43] GUEST1: He Well, [0:11:43] GUEST1: Makes an, he makes a really important point.

0:11:46 Microphone: I'll, I'll let it play out, I'll let it, the thing I just want to point out, because there's, there's really not much left, just like a, a minute or so. But I just wanted to point out, there, there's two people he's interviewing, supposedly. That's it. We don't hear from that guy again. That was out of this entire interview. [0:12:04] GUEST1: Make your point Yeah. [0:12:04] GUEST1: and get off.

0:12:05 Microphone: He goes, Hey, what do you think? Well, yeah, they're definitely, you know, this is going to promote the narrative of ISIS. Okay. Anyway, back to the other guy. So I really am bringing this up just because I hate cable news. Like I just hate it. It's the dumbest thing. So sorry. I may, I should have made that clear, Jake. That was one of my motivations for playing this clip. Here, we'll finish it out real quick.

0:12:29 System Audio: Of Al-Qaeda, which is basically, basically trying to say there's a war between Islam and the West, and you have to choose. You can't be a Muslim in the United States. You have to be opposed to the United States. Aren't you playing into their hands? Isn't this exactly the reaction and the message that the terrorists want? Sure. Sure, it is? Sure. Okay, so you're playing into ISIS and al-Qaeda hands. Do you feel good about that?

0:12:45 Microphone: This is where it gets weird and interesting.

0:12:59 System Audio: I'm just doing what I have to do to make sure that my children have a good future. You don't believe that this is playing into the narrative of what ISIS and Al-Qaeda is trying to shed. I mean, ISIS and al-Qaida, to Phil's point, is pushing this narrative that there is a war between Islam and the West. You fully believe there is war between the Islam and West, I guess, yes? Yes. So you see yourself as a foot soldier somehow in a war. So you think that it's wise for the West to have war against the billion-plus [0:13:31] GUEST1: It's Muslims around [0:13:31] GUEST1: not an interview.

0:13:27 Microphone: This is an interview.

0:13:31 System Audio: The world? [0:13:32] GUEST1: It's, I'm talking at you. No, I don't want war, but they need to learn tolerance. We're not the ones out committing these acts. We're not the one threatening anybody by believing otherwise. You don't think bringing guns to a mosque while people, while families are praying inside, wearing T-shirts that say, F Islam, and shouting whatever it is you're going to shout at them as they come and as they go, you don't think that's promoting violence at all I, I think the whole thing is the cartoon contest, especially, I think it's stupid, uh, and ridiculous, but it's what needs to take place in order to expose the true colors of Islam, uh, John Ritzheimer. I appreciate being on Phil Mudd as well.

0:13:33 Microphone: Yeah. [0:13:33] GUEST1: Well, Best question he's asked.

0:14:14 Microphone: Phil Mudd, who we don't know why he was on this. Appreciate you being on. Yeah, so that's the end. That was a good question. I think he did sort of get him there, and the a-hole Ritzheimer did not answer the question, really. I mean, he kind of avoided it. So that that was actually kind of a valid got you, I would say. But isn't isn't that weird that that's what an interview is, Jake? It's I should interview you and just say, so, Jake, you think that is and I say a bunch of things and you go, no. So you think it's like rather than just me list every possible belief you might have, how about you just maybe let the guy talk for a few seconds? Like, I know. [0:14:54] GUEST1: Everything, I'm not sure whether you were, we're aware of this, um, Thomas, but everything in life, the universe, and well, everything is, uh, is black and white. There are only two options. It's, uh, either yes, you're a terrorist, or no, uh, you're a terrorist sympathizer. So that's the, that's exact, um, black and black. Yeah, uh.

0:15:16 Microphone: But do you think our men and women who put on the uniform, who are fighting abroad right now with, with the children back at home? Are they supporting terror? Like what was this anyway? Okay. [0:15:25] GUEST1: Thomas.

0:15:26 Microphone: So yeah, [0:15:26] GUEST1: I, I'm afraid that I don't actually believe in women, so, um, that's, uh, it's, you're, you're wrong. Sure. So I w I want to [0:15:34] GUEST1: Sure. Get, um, I want To get a voice in this that isn't ours. I will actually say I, I wanted to, um. There's someone who wrote a piece who I'm going to try to contact, but I can't find her contact information. Um, but I I'm gonna keep at it, but someone wrote a a piece for Patheos, and I want to read a little bit of it, because it's a chance to get the other side of the story, and it's really good. [0:15:57] GUEST1: Absolutely.

0:15:58 Microphone: My dear brothers and sisters in humanity, fellow children of Adam, peace be upon him. Children of Adam? That's weird. Christians don't really care about peace be on Adam, do they? Anyway, I congratulate you [0:16:09] GUEST1: No. For [0:16:09] GUEST1: Yeah. Living in the United States of America, a country which allows me as a Muslim woman to express my beliefs freely and without harm, and allows you to protest against things that you disagree with. The Second Amendment protects us both as it allows us to defend ourselves from those who wish to hurt us. I have no quarrel with either the First or Second Amendment. Interesting. I forgot that part. And I hope to have no quarl with you.

I live in Virginia, three-quarters of the way across the country from the mosque in Arizona, where you intend to hold your protest. If I were there, I would come to the Friday prayer with prayerful patience, patience, and listen to the imam and pray alongside my sisters. I would then run out to the local mega mart and stock up on water. I see that news, I see on the news that it gets kind of hot there, notwithstanding the fact that it's a dry heat.

I would dann put the water in a cooler and walk across the street to offer it to those of you who are protesting. I might be afraid, but I hope I would not let that stop me. Now, I must say, I wouldn't be afraid due to the mere fact that you all are, are bikers.

0:17:09 Microphone: Some of my closest friends and compatriots have been bikers, big hairy men with long beards, braids, intimidating to others, tattoos, uh, leather vests. And oh yeah, also they carry broad swords and spears and like to play with catapults. But that's another story. I don't really know what that refers to anyway. So your, her suit appearance, your leathers, your rumbling bikes, your tattoos, your chains, holding your wallets, your heavy boots, all those don't phase me a bit. What does make me fearful is ignorance and a mob mentality. There's nothing I can do about it, so best to just carry on and hope for the best. If I could be there, I would offer water to you and lend an ear to your protests. I would pray that you, being human beings, could see past my scarf, so much less intimidating than your tattoos, but oh so fear-inspiring according to Fox News, and see me as I see you, a human being.

0:17:58 Microphone: I would ask why you think you hate me, why you think you hate my religion, why do you fear sharia law coming to a city near you. Um, well, let me read one more paragraph. I'm not worried that you intend to draw insulting pictures of my beloved prophet Muhammad, may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him. We have a description of how he looked, but no 14-year-old, uh, 1400-year-old photos. So anything you draw would not be him, not even close.

A hastily penciled rendition of a brown guy in a turban holding a bomb is not my prophet and can't harm him, me, or my religion. So draw away, you are only drawing an outward manifestation of the impurity and hatred in your heart. Whatever you draw will say a lot more about you than it will about me or him. Interesting. So, I, I. think the tactic there of making the comparison to the bikers and the fact that bikers are typically feared and all that and trying to, uh, there's a lot of language there that, that I see was meant to kind of inspire that thought in people and get people to think, you know, what's the difference really? I mean, between people of this outward appearance and then Muslims, I think there's a good comparison there.

And I really do think, the funny thing is, in this brilliant piece that I think is really well written and really considerate. And it's just a, it's a kind piece of writing. And I appreciate it. I really do. I think it's something that comes from a good place and is intended to bring understanding, I think. So there's a little more of it that [0:19:32] GUEST1: And, I. [0:19:33] GUEST1: Calm, and, Yeah, [0:19:34] GUEST1: Calm, don't, yeah, [0:19:34] GUEST1: Forget that you, yeah. [0:19:35] GUEST1: Know, this is it, it's, it's a piece saying, dude, I'm, I'm human, you know, you.

0:19:41 Microphone: Yeah. [0:19:41] GUEST1: You're, you're poking, you're trying to poke a bear, thinking that I'm a bear. I'ma human. You're poking a human. Please stop poking a human. Literally, if you wanted to poke me, uh, acknowledging the fact that I was a human, I would come out and bring you water because I knew it's going to be hot out there. That's how much I appreciate the humanity in you. Perhaps you can look at me and say, oh, dude, you're human too. Sorry. Oh, I do apologize. I thought you were a bear.

0:20:14 Microphone: Nice. Yeah, it's, it's so interesting because I do think this is a great reaction to this in general, but I think what you said a second ago about everything getting paint, painted in black and white, I think is such a big part of this because if someone wrote this in response to the Charlie Hebdo thing, it might not be quite as appropriate. I mean, obviously, it's very much directed at these bikers. But what I mean to say is I think it does matter how you go about this stuff, because there are people in Islam. The simple fact is there are a lot of people in Islam, um, the numbers I'm unclear but polls don't look good, who would advocate and, and perhaps commit violence against those who, uh, leave Islam, for one, those who leave the religion, those who draw Muhammad, apostasy. [0:21:06] GUEST1: Apostates, yeah.

0:21:07 Microphone: Yeah, and so I just want to say that I fully endorse this as a great, great letter and a great open letter and article. And I really admire the kindness and calm, like you say, with which it was written. But I also don't [0:21:22] GUEST1: Can want to [0:21:23] GUEST1: I go too [0:21:23] GUEST1: just far [0:21:23] GUEST1: put the [0:21:23] GUEST1: that? Other way. Go ahead.

[0:21:25] GUEST1: Absolutely, yeah? Sorry, I just want to put that statistic that you sort of quoted in a little bit of context, a lot of the questions that were asked in that context, you know, would you kill an apostate as it's commanded in the Quran, the answer effectively has to be yes because of the conditions that they they were asked in. It wasn't a closed section. It wasn't one person being asked, dude, seriously, would you kill somebody who decided to leave Islam? They decided they didn't think the same way. It wasn't asked in that way.

It was asked in, do you believe in the Quran? The Quran says that all infidels must be killed or all apostates of Islam must be killed and uh [0:22:17] GUEST1: would you would you do it on that basis and uh the answer was yes so it was sort of a uh it was a lead question if you know Well, [0:22:26] GUEST1: what I mean so what [0:22:26] GUEST1: I yeah If you asked a Christian in this country, you believe in the Bible, right? Yeah. Okay. I think people would say yes. The Bible, in parts, advocates stoning homosexuals and people who work on the Sabbath.

Sabbath so would you do that you would not get near the numbers that they're getting for these polls and secondly I don't know that that's true with the poll that I've looked at but I I don't I mean I think there are a few different ones we could be talking about so uh I I'm I'm totally guessing you you have your uh your sources for what you're saying but the one I've look at I think was just a are you saying it wasn't it was like in an open environment or did I mishear what you said [0:23:05] GUEST1: Sorry.

0:23:05 Microphone: Oh. [0:23:06] GUEST1: What all I was trying to say it was just basically a lead questions so you Okay. [0:23:11] GUEST1: know when But [0:23:11] GUEST1: you when you provide It was done [0:23:12] GUEST1: leading over the [0:23:12] GUEST1: questions phone right [0:23:13] GUEST1: in It was then it was a phone poll right I [0:23:15] GUEST1: It I must [0:23:15] GUEST1: was something Have, [0:23:16] GUEST1: to that order okay, [0:23:16] GUEST1: Or yeah I sorry, I misheard you. I thought you had said it was something in, [0:23:21] GUEST1: Think oh, [0:23:21] GUEST1: I did say that but I think okay.

[0:23:22] GUEST1: What was attempting to to say was it was just it was asked in an in an inappropriate way for Okay, [0:23:28] GUEST1: Uh okay [0:23:28] GUEST1: For but [0:23:29] GUEST1: You know uh do [0:23:30] GUEST1: It you [0:23:30] GUEST1: Sort acknowledge, [0:23:31] GUEST1: of contaminated do [0:23:32] GUEST1: the research if you know what you [0:23:33] GUEST1: I mean acknowledge [0:23:33] GUEST1: Yes the point I made about Christianity though? What do you think is the difference [0:23:36] GUEST1: Absolutely yeah I there? [0:23:38] GUEST1: Think I don't know. [0:23:38] GUEST1: That's a that's an apt comparison yeah you

0:23:40 Microphone: So all I wanted to say, the only thing I was bringing up is I think that this is why I'm constantly in the middle, Jake. It really is. This is why I'm so often find myself in the middle because of anything.

[0:23:52] GUEST1: Thought Malcolm was in the middle no it's Thomas oh Yeah, because it's I don't I don't want to look at these bikers and say, yeah, you you you morons like you should never draw the Prophet Muhammad. That's insulting. And I don't want to look at this brilliantly written piece and say yeah, no one ever has a problem with Muhammad. Muhammad. I mean, here every Muslim is just another kind human being. I don't want to do either of those things. I'm very interested in whatever the actual fact is.

I're not so interested in trying to make the fact something that I want it to be. And I think that's a theme that I try to bring up and I do my best to at least not try to make facts out to be what I want them to be, so I don't know. But I really appreciate what I was going to bring up is that I think she's almost too soft when it comes to talking about the, the biker stuff,

0:24:49 Microphone: Because one comparison has been made to, uh, um, the fact that there's a bit of a double standard. Did you hear about the massive, um. Biker arrests from in, uh. Oh, shoot. Where was that Washington somewhere? I'm blanking on where it was, but it was in the United States and there there was a biker gang kind of fight in which I think nine people died. [0:25:13] GUEST1: Yeah, in Waco, in Waco, Texas, yeah, yeah.

0:25:16 Microphone: Was that in Texas? Oh, okay. [0:25:18] GUEST1: It was in Waco, Texas, too. Oh, [0:25:19] GUEST1: That's no kidding. Yeah, yeah, you're right. No, duh. Okay, sorry. [0:25:23] GUEST1: Why it stood out I [0:25:23] GUEST1: to me hell brain farted on that. You're right, yes, and people made a lot of comparisons to why are we not calling these These people thugs and that sort of thing. And I thought about it and I thought, yeah, I think we are a little we are a little looser on, you know, in this culture where we we give white people a bit more of a pass on looking threatening, you know, than we do when you whenever there's police coverage about or sorry, news coverage about whatever the latest protest is and and, you you know, black people looking threatening and that sort of thing. I think that's a fair point, but I think the solution is just, we also need to call out these a-hole biker gangs more, you know?

[0:26:15] GUEST1: Yeah Let's [0:26:15] GUEST1: Are up that stake a bit. And in that way, I personally, to jump topics a little bit, I think it is really annoying to be this biker gang, for example, that's doing this protest. Test. Why do you need to look so threatening? Like, really? I mean, why do you? Why do you need look like a badass? Why don't you need to look violent with, with your, uh, your weird chains and stuff like that? I think she's a [0:26:43] GUEST1: You

0:26:43 Microphone: Little [0:26:43] GUEST1: You familiar too. [0:26:43] GUEST1: with the term peacocking yeah Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, I got it. It gets all the ladies. It gets it. All the ladies go for it. I know it's, it's just, it'S weird that she, I, I see what the excellent point she was making, sort of a rhetorical point about how, you know, don't judge people by their appearance and especially, especially, you know, throw it back on. Don't judge Muslims by their parents or religious garb. But then I also kind of wanted to say like, yeah, but I want to judge these bikers by their appearance.

[0:27:16] GUEST1: Your Kind of want to judgments. Maybe being dicks, especially when they're gun toting bikers, you know, like, I don't know. So I just thought that was funny. But let me let me finish this out. Only a couple more paragraphs. What do you think about? Actually, sorry, there was one more thing I want to say. What Do you think about this thing? How she's saying you're just drawing a representation of Muhammad?

[0:27:40] GUEST1: Hatred is Yeah, I thought that was funny because then I couldn't help but ask in my mind, well, what if we did have photos [0:27:47] GUEST1: Your

0:27:47 Microphone: Of [0:27:47] GUEST1: hatred what [0:27:47] GUEST1: Islamic look if we did have photos of the Prophet like just what if he happened to exist when there are cameras and the same rules applied like then would that not be okay for us to show you know like it doesn't a little bit dodge the question I mean if I would I would be curious to ask this author and maybe I can't if I can find her contact info [0:28:11] GUEST1: I think firstly just to preface my comment I would say there was a time in my early high school where every photo that was taken of me I abhorred and as a consequence I burned But [0:28:26] GUEST1: them all and Did [0:28:28] GUEST1: when people you go [0:28:29] GUEST1: People asked on any shooting [0:28:30] GUEST1: me, rampages when [0:28:31] GUEST1: well, when people drew, I [0:28:33] GUEST1: when people asked to draw my likeness or to take my photos, I would threaten them with physical violence.

Not that that really meant anything at that time, think [0:28:44] GUEST1: but, yeah, certainly that was there. And I can kind of understand, like, if the Prophet Muhammad was really ugly and, like all of these, you know, sort of, what was it, 4th and 5th century depictions of

0:28:57 Microphone: He was [0:28:57] GUEST1: him were pretty [0:28:58] GUEST1: actually, ugly. [0:28:59] GUEST1: Well, yeah, there you go, so, uh, that's ethnocentrism for you.

0:29:03 Microphone: Yeah. [0:29:03] GUEST1: Now, when, when you sort of, you know, look at the fact that, uh, no, no pictures exist, you know, if, if I was an all-powerful, uh, prophet, and every word that I said was law, uh, and I was really ugly, I would totes say, hey dudes, after I'm dead, burn it all and make it totes illegal for anybody to reproduce it, because I don't want, uh, I don't want my historical record to show me, you know, with a big nose Yeah, [0:29:31] GUEST1: and I well, [0:29:32] GUEST1: shouldn't say that with uh with you it's [0:29:34] GUEST1: know you're [0:29:34] GUEST1: hairy just reacting [0:29:35] GUEST1: bushy eyebrows to [0:29:35] GUEST1: and the [0:29:36] GUEST1: my to the caricatures [0:29:36] GUEST1: face of him.

Yeah but but to go off on your on this comedy tangent the the reason I know he was ugly, the reason I made that comment, is because good-looking people don't start religions. It's just, this is my, this is my generalization that I'm gonna go with it, I'm sure people give me shit about, but [0:29:56] GUEST1: yeah it [0:29:57] GUEST1: seriously religion [0:29:57] GUEST1: though is [0:29:58] GUEST1: look

0:29:58 Microphone: The [0:29:58] GUEST1: at L. On Hubbard, yeah, you got it, you got it, yeah.

0:30:01 Microphone: Yeah, no kidding, the reason you need a religion back then is, like, you're not the biggest and the strongest, you know, primate. If go back to all religions that were invented, I mean, I pretty much think it has to, do and, with the, you know, exception of some weird cult insane people, isn't it sort, sort of a tool, to, seriously, though, isn't it sort of been invented as a tool for people who are not necessarily the biggest and the strongest to be able to hang on to their possessions and keep other people in check? I kind of think that is tends to be what it's about. But, but anyway, that's a digression.

[0:30:37] GUEST1: No, I think, I think you're right, look, um, you asked the question about, um, the, the wording, um, of what, what she said, I think it was particularly powerful, you're drawing a representation of your hatred, effectively saying you're drawing something that you think is going to get me upset. And I think that's more important than the premise of you're drawing Islam, which you think is hatred. It's more like you're drawing something that, while it actually literally bears no resemblance to the thing that I don't want you to draw because I hold it as sacred within my religion, you're doing something that that embodies hatred on the basis that you're drawing something that you want me to get excited and upset about.

0:31:24 Microphone: Well, [0:31:24] GUEST1: And yeah. [0:31:25] GUEST1: on that premise, I do kind of think that that's correct.

0:31:28 Microphone: Well, I think that's a great point. And the only thing I wanted to say, though, is do you at all, and maybe, I don't know, maybe no one shares this thought, it doesn't, it seem a little weird when, when she says, like, uh, I'm fine with you drawing Muhammad because you're not actually drawing Muhammad, you know, like, oh, okay, [0:31:47] GUEST1: Yeah. Would it [0:31:48] GUEST1: I Be not okay if he was actually dry. I mean, I, it just a little bit skirts the question. I, I don't know, I, it it just reminds me of how dodgy you people, you can, you, you can see Muslims sometimes, certain Muslims, of course, I'm not saying all Muslims, but in interviews when you ask them about apostasy, it reminds me of that same weird dodginess in a way.

By no means do I think it's as bad, but sometimes I feel like they're – let me bring it around. Same thing when you asked an American Christian about gay rights. Same thing. I really don't want to turn this into an anti-Islam thing. Um, it doesn't, sometimes you see these little hints of like, well, I kind of worry that this person still is harboring some sort of weird, you could know, you know, no one can draw my profit, or rather, I don't believe in gay marriage, or whatever the belief is, when they do a kind of a dodgy answer. I'm probably reading too much into it, though. So I'll, I'll go ahead and [0:32:48] GUEST1: don't let [0:32:48] GUEST1: know.

0:32:48 Microphone: That [0:32:48] GUEST1: I rest. [0:32:49] GUEST1: think it's important to recognise that she is correct in saying that you literally can't draw my, you know, this thing that I hold sacred because nobody knows what it looks like. So effectively what you're drawing is something to make me upset because you're embodying it or you're imbuing it with this notion of it being my Profit. So you're literally drawing hatred that, you know, does not represent my Well, [0:33:18] GUEST1: profit, yeah, [0:33:19] GUEST1: you're just but that's [0:33:19] GUEST1: drawing something only the last [0:33:20] GUEST1: to sentence [0:33:20] GUEST1: excite me. She's saying. I mean, in the beginning, she talks about, OK, let me let me just real quick.

You intend to draw insulting pictures of my beloved Prophet Muhammad. And peace be upon him. I guess you have to say that every time for some reason. We have a description of how he looked, but no fourteen hundred year old photos. So anything you draw would not be him, not even close. And I think what she says after that is totally what you're saying. And I Think that's a great point. But I don't you see that also this component of like, yeah, but that's I don't know. Doesn't that dodge the question a little bit? If I ask, [0:33:53] GUEST1: Yeah, okay, [0:33:53] GUEST1: it if [0:33:53] GUEST1: does, it doesn't.

0:33:54 Microphone: I ask [0:33:54] GUEST1: Yeah. Someone, should [0:33:55] GUEST1: Yeah, look, I be allowed to draw the Prophet Muhammad? And they say, well, yes, because you can't draw him because there's nothing that you don't know what he looks like. Aren't you like, well that's not fully, [0:34:07] GUEST1: when that's all I'm saying. [0:34:09] GUEST1: I was, I just, I remember a time when I was playing um, uh, armies with my brothers. I have three brothers and we were Oh, [0:34:18] GUEST1: down the back of my parents' place and my little brother got into the perfect skirmish point, perfect sniper point up in a tree, and he said that he shot me and I rebuked and said, you didn't actually shoot me because I am wearing a reflective vest, so you literally could not have shot me, uh, in fact it bounced off me and hit you, so it you pulled [0:34:44] GUEST1: reflects the old, [0:34:44] GUEST1: more I'm [0:34:44] GUEST1: on rubber, [0:34:45] GUEST1: you than you're [0:34:45] GUEST1: it does glue. [0:34:46] GUEST1: on me, yeah.

0:34:46 Microphone: Is that what you're saying? [0:34:47] GUEST1: Yeah. Ah, [0:34:48] GUEST1: Yeah, all [0:34:48] GUEST1: bounces off me, sticks right. All right. [0:34:50] GUEST1: the fuck This [0:34:51] GUEST1: to you is [0:34:53] GUEST1: sorry a clean show. No, [0:34:54] GUEST1: about swearing. It's okay.

[0:34:55] GUEST1: Yep. Let me finish this out because I do really like this piece. I would [0:35:01] GUEST1: Yeah. Stand in front of you and allow you to ask any questions you want about my faith. You see, I am a convert, a person who did not grow up as a Muslim. Oh, well, okay. That's interesting. But rather accepted it as an adult. I studied this faith, read tens of books, went to classes. Did I say tens? Read tons of books.

Went to classes, learned that squiggly Arabic writing I know what my religion teaches Fox News does not Pat Robertson does not Rush Limbaugh does not Sean Hannity does not You wouldn't go to a butcher to learn vegan recipes Don't goto someone who hates Islam to try to learn about it I do not fear your questions There are no secrets in Islam It's all there for the taking Its essence is simple I believe in one God, the God of Moses and Jesus and Muhammad Peace be upon them I believein kindness to parents and raising kids To be polite, ethical, and hard workers I believe in charity for those who share my faith and those who don't.

0:35:52 Microphone: I believe that I have to be kind to my neighbors and that I have to engage with my community. I believe chastity and modesty for men and women. I believe cute babies and puppy dogs and kittens and not overeating and exercising to stay fit and speaking out against injustice even if it's my own family who's guilty. Let's break it down one question at a time. I'm not afraid of your questions. Are you afraid of my answers?

Afraid that your fear is unjustified and that you've been lied to. I'll help you put away the fear, but only if you'll put your anger and hatred on the back burner and give me a chance, give yourself a chance. Don't let your hatred that you have been taught blind you to the possibility of learning something, something pretty doggone awesome. Don't be the mob, be people. Don't parrot right wing hate mongers. Speak for yourself. I can't be there in Arizona with my Muslim brothers and sisters, so I'll be here praying for them, praying for you biker guys and gals to use every bit of your common sense you possess and keep the guns in their holsters, to douse your hot brains with cold water and keep your mind calm. Keep the protest peaceful, to have your say and go home without hurting anyone. And I sincerely, sincerely pray that Allah will guide you, each and every one of you, to the best way in this life and the next. And if you hurt one of my brothers and sisters, well, Allah will deal with you justly. Interesting.

0:37:10 Microphone: Yeah, the only thing, I think this is totally cool and good to write, and I commend this person, who again I will try to contact, for writing it. But there is a weird pattern I see, and we can try to wrap this up soon, but just one more point. I follow someone on Twitter who does a similar thing where they take their interpretation of Islam and they assert that that's what true Islam is. It's it's really odd.

[0:37:40] GUEST1: also And when you hear things like and it works for Christianity, too, it's it'S weird that it doesn't really go the other way when people say like, yeah, [0:37:50] GUEST1: Works for Scottish people, yeah. Exactly, exactly right. Right, those bastards. When people, when there's someone specifically I follow who I will try, I want to try to interview someday, but I feel like it would be very important to be very well read on Islam or have someone else who could help me out, because he's, I think he's Ahmadiyya Muslim or whatever. They're a minority Muslim who's actually pretty persecuted everywhere, everywhere in the Muslim world. But he'll tweet as though anyone who says something, who asserts that Islam is violent or hateful or anything, he'll tweet and respond and blog, actually writes blogs, too, about the his specific teachings, like his specific imam he follows and say, like, no, this is Islam, this is all of it.

0:38:43 Microphone: And it's like, well, yeah, but there are some other Scotsmen to use your very apt comparison. [0:38:49] GUEST1: Yeah.

0:38:50 Microphone: Like it, it's a weird thing. There, there's a, again, I just want to bring it home to the idea that I'm very interested in the truth. And if the truth, and if the data is that there's like five Muslims who are violent and a billion who are totally cool, or 2 billion, or one point whatever billion, then that's what I'd want to know. And that's what I would accept as the truth and I'd be very happy.

But if it's more like there are a lot of Muslims similar to how there are some Christians in this country with very backwards views, except probably even a little worse, then that's a different set of facts. And I very much just want to know the facts. I'm not really interested in painting all of the religion one way or the other. Do you know what I mean?

[0:39:33] GUEST1: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you can't really, can you? I mean, you can generalize, you Can be vague, but ultimately, you know, that's what the media does very poorly. You know, they like to say, you know, if an atheist does something negative, Yeah. [0:39:50] GUEST1: they'd like to say, oh, this atheist, wow, he is such an example of all atheists,

0:39:55 Microphone: Well, so [0:39:56] GUEST1: you know? Well, glad you [0:39:58] GUEST1: I brought [0:39:58] GUEST1: suppose that [0:39:58] GUEST1: I up. [0:39:58] GUEST1: am actually, Keep going. [0:39:59] GUEST1: but yeah, Yeah. We're all as handsome as Jake Farr Wharton. [0:40:05] GUEST1: Yeah, fine. I, this, this, this ugly duckling finally became a swan. Yes, but, uh, yeah, look, it is, um, it's just that's just the way that the world works, unfortunately.

0:40:18 Microphone: Well, I'm glad you brought that up because we can go out with a bang with a quick, with a quick point about a completely obvious point, because past guests of both our shows and past previous friend, CJ, it's so easy. It's so simple. It is so easy to do. It All you have to do, and I saw someone tweet this at him, was say, so CJ, what you're saying is anytime an atheist does this it's fully representative of their politics and their beliefs and their whatever, but if a Muslim does the same thing it's, it's all about, uh, you know, American foreign policy. It's [0:40:54] GUEST1: Imperialism.

0:40:54 Microphone: About, you know, imperialism. [0:40:55] GUEST1: Etc. Yeah, yeah.

0:40:56 Microphone: It's like you can either say one or the other, you can't, you can't do the thing where you constantly say no, all terrorism is as a result of foreign policy by, by the US, uh, no, there's no, no Muslim CJ literally believes this. There's no Muslim who actually kills because of the Quran, that those people he thinks are [0:41:18] GUEST1: Yeah. Completely insane. Um, this is literal. I'm not, I'm not strawmanning CJ. He actually believes that and writes that. Um but then when an atheist, uh does something like hold this protest, well that's completely because of their atheism. It's because of a, a bad worldview that actually all new atheists share, by the way. It's not just this guy, like all [0:41:38] GUEST1: Oh. New, somehow he makes it into a new atheism thing, which I don't even know what that is. And it's so easy to point out the absurdity of it that it's, I just wanted to go out on that easy note. Any final words, any last words, Jake Farr-Wharton?

[0:41:54] GUEST1: It's just gorgeous, he's a funny guy, isn't he? Um, but I mean, look, in his defense, well, that is, there's certainly, you know, demonstrable hypocrisy and, you know, it demonstrates a severe issue with generalisation. You know, somebody like you would think that way.

0:42:17 Microphone: Nice. I couldn't think of a better line to go out on. And that's why I pay you the big bucks. Oh, wait. Never [0:42:25] GUEST1: Hey, can mind. [0:42:25] GUEST1: I promote one thing? Oh yeah. You can [0:42:28] GUEST1: I'm promote [0:42:28] GUEST1: sorry to interrupt. Up to 1.3 things. [0:42:33] GUEST1: Just for your Brisbane listeners, and that may be a Oh. [0:42:39] GUEST1: small number, I think I [0:42:39] GUEST1: but have a [0:42:39] GUEST1: I few. [0:42:40] GUEST1: don't know.

0:42:40 Microphone: Yeah. [0:42:41] GUEST1: Awesome. Well, They're [0:42:42] GUEST1: for your probably [0:42:42] GUEST1: Australian from you [0:42:43] GUEST1: listeners, though. [0:42:43] GUEST1: certainly – well, They're right. All from your show and [0:42:49] GUEST1: the – just let me open this little document. I'm hosting an event and by hosting, I mean I'll be talking very little. I am the moderator for an event that's coming up. It's on the 2nd of July in Brisbane. It's being held in QUT Gardens Point, Queensland University of Technology Gardens Point campus. It's a really nice lecture theatre room. I am hosting the panel. I'm moderating a panel of a lawyer, a scientist, a philosopher, a doctor, and a pastor, and we a clown.

[0:43:24] GUEST1: are naughty, Just the, just to round it out. [0:43:28] GUEST1: very naughty. Yes, so it's on the question of how do you know, know. And we'll be asking effectively, how do you know the, you know, how do you get to the bottom? It's the epistemological question Yeah.

[0:43:40] GUEST1: of Right. [0:43:41] GUEST1: how do you get the bottom of the things that we think we know? And I should say the philosopher is Dr. Peter Boghossian, the

0:43:49 Microphone: Yeah. [0:43:49] GUEST1: author Wow. [0:43:50] GUEST1: of a manual for creating atheists, an awesome guy. He'll be bunking with me, in fact. He'll be staying with me during that time. I'm [0:44:00] GUEST1: But, yeah, so glad [0:44:00] GUEST1: it's going you brought [0:44:01] GUEST1: to this [0:44:01] GUEST1: be – up [0:44:01] GUEST1: oh, because I am insanely jealous of the fact that you get to moderate this thing. That's really cool. Yeah. [0:44:07] GUEST1: yeah. Yeah, Yeah. Well, I brought it up on your show because it seems the perfect – like you – this is the show for getting to the bottom of things, you know, for really uncovering how we know what we know. And certainly that's what we're attempting to do. We've got all these people, these professionals who are great, who, you Know, their job is literally to get to the top. To the bottom or of how do we know this thing. And That's [0:44:30] GUEST1: so a really [0:44:30] GUEST1: they're cool [0:44:31] GUEST1: so good at setup. [0:44:31] GUEST1: that.

0:44:32 Microphone: I [0:44:32] GUEST1: Yeah. Would be, I'm gonna drive my car right across whatever ocean separates me from you. I don't know, it's like probably [0:44:39] GUEST1: First like 10 oceans. [0:44:39] GUEST1: one and then the other, yeah.

0:44:42 Microphone: No, I really, uh, I really wish that we lived in the same area so we could constantly be visiting [0:44:49] GUEST1: Absolutely.

0:44:50 Microphone: And talking, and also I would go to this event because it does sound really cool. Oh, [0:44:56] GUEST1: It'll be videotaped and I will happily, down the track, share audio or Yes. [0:45:01] GUEST1: video in one way or another. But I would say for you, for people living in Queensland and Brisbane, it's worth the travel. It's Tuesday. I'm sorry. Sorry, it's Thursday the 2nd of July at 6.30pm, QUT Gardens Point, and the way that you find out more about it is you go to brisbansceptics.org, and sceptics is spelt with a K. brisbandsceptics.org.

0:45:32 Microphone: Awesome. And, of course, if you want to hear more of Jake, you can find him on the Imaginary Friends show, Dote Comb Podcast. And also you can fine him on our bonus content every week. Now, I'm going to take this opportunity to break this news to you, Jake. I actually switched my I'm releasing the bonus episodes over the weekend, actually, like on Friday or Saturday, because I decided that people have too much of me to listen to during the week. So because we got way I got like four podcasts that happened during the weeks. So I decided I I'm changing that up so you can find Jake every week on the bonus content. It's always a good show. And that's at patreon.com/atheist. So thanks so much for joining me, Jake. This was really good. [0:46:20] GUEST1: Pleasure.

0:46:31 Microphone: Alright, we got four new patrons to thank. Thank you so much for coming on, Nicole Shepherd, Jeremy Osborne, Rob Ives, and Sophiekhara, it looks like. Thank you guys for joining on. Let me know if you have any questions about any of the bonus stuff and all that. I really appreciate the support. And then, of course, I want to thank my all-time faves. Zimu Zinu, Adrian Borschoff, Michael, Jonathan Moyet, Havard S., Jay Aldenwalt, Bangs90Bits, thank you guys so much, Peter Skelton, Brian Garefort, Dale, Matt Garrett, and honorable mention goes to Samantha. So thank you, thank you. Thank you. If you want to join on that and get in on that Jake bonus content that's every week that I mentioned, patreon.com/atheist is where you go.

0:47:19 Microphone: Make a small pledge, you will not notice it, but I will. And the show will notice it as well. So thank you guys so much, and I'll see you next week. Ooh, I have a very, very good episode. Returning to the show is Elijah. Elijah T. This one was great. It was a really cool recording. He's a Christian, as you may remember, but it was fun and constructive dialogue, I think. So look forward to that next time. Week. It's a good one. All right. Have a good weekend. See you then.