AS141: Real Islamophobia, with Jake Farr-Wharton

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:31 Thomas: Hello and welcome to episode 141 of Atheistically Speaking with your host Thomas Smith. Joining me today is Jake Farr-Wharton... I don't know how to pronounce his name. It's somebody I found... Somebody I found just on the internet randomly in a chat room, on a bulletin board. Yeah, Jake, how are you doing? Yeah... Wait

0:00:59 Jake: I'm good, and let me firstly apologize to all of you listeners, who are probably, incredibly, sick of my voice, that's

0:01:08 Thomas: A minute, what are you talking about? Why would they be? You must be referring to my awesome, amazing, fun times patrons, who... probably hear you on the bonus content every week, but that's, you know, not everybody is as amazing as my patron. So there's a lot of people who don't hear you on the show very much at all.

0:01:28 Thomas: I think it's been, uh, actually over two months since you last were on the Show. And prior to that, it's been a long time. I don't remember how long.

0:01:25 Jake: True, that is true, true, yeah,

0:01:38 Thomas: So, so people are probably, don't get me wrong. People are probably still tired of you, like very much so. So, but, but I think it's reasonable for you to be back on. Yeah. Thanks for coming on today. I want, well, man, there's a lot I want to talk about, but I think I'll just start by asking you this. Are anti-theists a danger to the world? Are they a danger? Are they danger to humanity? Because that's what, uh, I'm not going to name them, but that's what one of our friends, uh. Whose name starts with a C, has endorsed the idea that anti-theists are a danger to humanity. What do you think about that? I mean, I can't get over it. We got a lot

0:01:38 Jake: Yeah far too long, oh yeah, of course, that goes without saying, yeah anti-theists.

0:02:22 Jake: Hmm.

0:02:22 Thomas: Of specifics I'm going to go over with you, but just in general, this comparison that I keep seeing where where people who are anti-theists are also supposedly just as bad as ISIS. It's getting a little tiresome.

0:02:41 Jake: Well, I would think that anti-theists who are as bad as ISIS are probably a threat to humanity. But your general everyday anti-Theist who just calls themselves an anti- Theist because, you know, they don't like the local church, are they a danger to humanity? Well, I mean, is your average Christian who probably dislikes atheists because their priest has said that they're bad, are they a danger to society, to humanity? Probably not.

0:03:16 Jake: But then you go, I'm sorry for giving it too much thought, certainly more than our friend whose name who starts with a C did.

0:03:16 Thomas: Okay, well, that was...

0:03:23 Jake: Did. The.

0:03:23 Thomas: Yeah, I just wanted to give you a nice, easy layup question. I agree, but you wouldn't know that from reading some people, and not just our friend who starts with a C, but others. I mean, it's... And the current event that is bringing this up is actually right as we speak, I believe there's a, uh, protest. Uh, well, depending on the time zone, let's see. I think it was at six. Anyway, it might be happening right now. A protest in Arizona, uh around a mosque scheduled and coordinated by a group of bikers, which was led by this guy who I guess is an atheist. Although I've only ever seen him described as an atheist. I didn't see anyone who said he was, but whatever. I'm assuming that's reliable, I guess.

0:04:10 Thomas: But he's anti-Islam, to be certain. And to be honest, it's pretty, I don't know. Let me read the description of the event. This will be a peaceful protest, peaceful in caps, by the way. So, I mean, interesting. Peaceful protest in front of the Islamic Community Center in Phoenix, Arizona. This is a response to the recent attack in Texas where two armed terrorists with ties to ISIS attempted jihad. Everyone is to is encouraged to bring American flags and any message that you would like to send to the known acquaintances of the two gunmen. To the, what, weird, the Islamic Community Center is a known place that the two terrorists frequented. People are also encouraged to utilize their second, second amendment right, which, uh, I know, know you're, you're from, uh, some other country, but in this, in America, that means bringing a gun.

0:05:07 Jake: The two, the two, um, gunmen that they were referring to is apparently two, um, two armed terrorists with ties to ISIS that had attempted jihad in their words. That's That's In the Words of The protesters. Ah.

0:05:22 Thomas: Well, I mean, it is, yeah, but it's, uh... it is the two gunmen who tried to... it was the, uh, the, the rally...

0:05:29 Jake: Yeah. I Understand. Yeah. The Two, that, yeah, gotcha, I

0:05:31 Thomas: Yeah, what was their name? That they, uh.... this is the topic I want to bring up. It's not something I've gotten to talk about on here, and just, like, where the line is between... I don't know. Hold on. Let me, let me finish this, because I really want to launch into, to, but I just want to finish this and describe this event. Uh, people are also encouraged to utilize their second amendment, right? And now I'm not too good with the constitution. So I actually thought this meant the women's right to vote, but, uh, I guess apparently it's not to utilize.

0:05:59 Jake: Think that's The 47th.

0:06:00 Thomas: Oh yeah.

0:06:01 Jake: Suffrage?

0:06:02 Thomas: Oh wait, no, no. Hold on. You're supposed to bring like alcohol because it's the amendment, the repealed prohibition, right. Is that, yeah, I don't know. I'm Just in case our First Amendment comes under the much anticipated attack. Then the rest is, let me skip a bit. It said there will be a Muhammad cartoon contest and the winner will be announced at the rally. And then it says there will Be No After Party.

0:06:12 Jake: Yeah.

0:06:31 Jake: So it's a Muhammad drawing contest and they're encouraged to exercise their Second Amendment rights. So is there people there that are going to ensure that they don't confuse their crayons with their guns? Because that could be an issue.

0:06:38 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, it's, yeah. It's just, man, so many mixed feelings because it's weird. Because I want to phrase the question as what is the line? Where's the line, but then I think the line in what? Is it the line in free speech? Because I don't really think there should be a line in Free Speech per se. I'm pretty pro-Free Speech to a great degree, but there's some line is being broken here. I don't know. What is the Line, Jake? I'm hoping you'll help me figure this this out.

0:07:19 Jake: Common decency, I think. I

0:07:21 Thomas: Common decency.

0:07:21 Jake: Think it's common decency. I mean, basically, look, all I was going to say was, And I should say in the two articles that I've read on this subject, at no point did they suggest that anyone involved in these rallies are atheists. I saw plenty of mention to –

0:07:23 Thomas: Yeah, because go ahead.

0:07:39 Thomas: It's just the leader. It is just the guy who organized it. Yeah.

0:07:41 Jake: Oh, there you go. That's certainly possible. I saw plentiful mention to the Tea Party movement and, I mean, certainly one could speculate that that is pretty heavily tied to various fundamentalist Christianity sects. But that's a speculation. Um, so and perhaps that just that just suggests that I read sources that don't try to reduce people down to their religious belief or or associations. So um, so yeah, look, it's a common decency that they're crossing as far as I can tell. I I don't know their their end game. I think it looks like the type of I can speculate and say that it looks like a provocation event, you know. All they're trying to do is to get the Muslims to jihadify and go nuts and try to suggest that they are bad with some action.

0:07:46 Thomas: Yeah!

0:08:34 Jake: But ultimately what these guys are doing is provocation. They are attempting to provoke these guys into some form of action. I mean, they say it in some of their stupidity mutterings. They say something to the order of they've come out, they've condemned ISIS. Sorry, this is the wrong one. Oh, here we go. Unfortunately, we have to hold the cartoon contest, as silly as it sounds, to be able to show the true colours of Islam. And as funny as that sentence is, you know, have to cartoon contest and true colours, As funny as that does actually sound, I don't

0:08:45 Thomas: Yeah!

0:09:17 Thomas: Look, I'm not very good with puns. I'm glad you pointed that out. Okay, go ahead!

0:09:23 Jake: Think he was either. I think this was a complete mistake on his part. But basically, look, it's a case of they're trying to get this mosque who is by all accounts, you know, there's been no problems. By all accounts they're placid, normal human beings that happen to be Muslim. And they're trying to provoke them into being the type of Muslims that they think of when they go to sleep and sweat bullets.

0:09:53 Thomas: Yeah. Well, okay, I want to say a few things. First, yeah, Yeah, you're right that I think that the atheist part is definitely being overblown by one C.J. Werleman, of course, but also others of his elk, other elk of his ilk, because the leader happens to be an atheist. But the letter there was a threatening letter that the mosque received that people are kind of tying into this. But that was written by Christians. And the like you said, the American flag thing, that's not what does that have to do with anything? Thing. It's kind of odd because I'm trying to extract, like if I were trying to extract some sort of, I don't know, good idea out of this mess. I wonder if I were to ask you, let me lay out the facts this way, Jake.

0:10:40 Thomas: I wonder where you would stand on this. So this attack did happen. There was an attack, you know, the two gunmen and they were actually killed, you know, when there was a Dramuhamedh contest. Now that one was not, I I don't think it was held anywhere near a mosque. So it was a little bit more, I would say it was a little more innocent as much as people think it was just, you know, trying to provoke for no reason. I would Say that one has a bit more of plausible deniability than this one. Um, but anyway, if, if you were someone who lived in this area and you, you see that, uh, Muslims have attempted to kill, you Know, attempted to, They could have massacred him if there's no one to defend him, actually, these people.

0:11:26 Thomas: And then you see that these people, these gunmen, did go to this mosque. That's actually true. They attended this mosque, and if I were to say then, Jake, like, okay, there's some people who are just having a protest in front of the mosque, just those facts, is that already too over the line of common decency, I wonder? I'm just trying to kind of, you know, spell this out and see where the line is, because I know the guns adds a whole level of just terrible to it. But pretend that didn't happen. Pretend it's people who are organizing a rally because of those facts that I laid out.

0:12:02 Jake: Well, you're talking to a guy who, when he was staying in Atlanta last time, sprinted back to his hotel when he saw that a man was walking around with a gun in a holster. So perhaps I'm not a, yeah. Yeah. So if it were me, yeah.

0:12:21 Thomas: Well, I said pretend no guns, pretend the No guns part happened. I just, I really want to know if there's any grain of a good idea in this thing or if it's all just good

0:12:31 Jake: No, I don't think so. Look, I liken this to people standing out front of, and this is a false equivalency and I acknowledge it from the outset, you know, pro-lifers, so-called pro-likers, anti-abortionists standing outside of an abortion clinic Attempting to prevent the people from entering, attempting to, you knows, sway them, whatever. Um, but you know, I just see basically a group of uh, antagonists trying to antagonize an otherwise peaceful group. Um, now, while it's certainly true, as you say, that uh, there were two gunmen at, you know, that attended the, that, that place that went to the Draw Muhammad cartoon rally and and uh, wanted to, I don't know, teach people a lesson or whatever, whatever their their intent was, that, that was their intent. It was, you know, obviously horrible, but ultimately, when you provoke someone to such a stage where they snap, regardless of what the reasoning behind it is, I think perhaps you've gone too far.

0:12:46 Thomas: Comparison.

0:13:34 Thomas: Wow.

0:13:34 Jake: You know, because you can get a rise out of anyone by, you can, you knows, you don't have to be a bear. You can poke a bear until you're mauled. But ultimately was it the bear that was at fault or was it you for poking it? I don't know.

0:13:46 Thomas: Well, but that's treating people like bears. Is that what you're saying? Because I don't.

0:13:48 Jake: Yeah, that's true. False equivalency, I apologize. Well,

0:13:51 Thomas: Well, no, it's not false. I think some people do treat Muslims like like that. I think so. And I think that in some ways it's it's kind of an interesting form of racism in itself to say. I mean, if you're going to say Islamophobia is racism, which these people do, is it not somewhat racist to say that people can't control themselves? And that you can't make fun of Mohammed. Otherwise, you know, these bears are going to come get you. You know, like, isn't it a bit I don't know. Isn't it bit dehumanizing?

0:14:22 Jake: I Would liken it to, okay, so as a kid in early high school, certainly, I was bullied, bullied a lot. I was fat. I had glasses and I had braces and I was socially awkward because, you know, I'm a guy who likes to say what's on my mind and I'm not dumb by some accounts. And so when you, when I'm surrounded by people who, um, you know, don't Get the greatest scores In, I Don't want to say that, but yeah, I mean that, that's what I'm trying to say, basically, who have, who have certain, anyway, so basically I was bullied a lot, okay, and it took for me, it took a lot of bullying by a group of people who were threatening to hit me and and punch me and and explode my kidneys from the inside to stand up and punch a guy in the face.

0:14:51 Thomas: Are dumb. Yeah. Yeah.

0:15:18 Jake: So that's sort of the equivalency that I am trying to draw here. They were a bunch of people with sticks poking a bear. While my nature isn't specifically to eat things because I'm hungry, I did react as a consequence of being poked with a stick for a long time. You know, for a prolonged time. And I mean that, I think, I think this harkens back to general psychology, you know from a sort of a popular standpoint, when you tell someone that they are evil and you give them, you know, you're constantly yelling at, at the, you are evil, you are evil. You are awful. You're horrible. You are, there is nothing great, good about you. You should go away. You should not be here. When you constantly give those people, uh, give, give a message that is contrary to their, you know, to who they are, then you can alter the perception of who they think they are and you can change them.

0:16:15 Thomas: Well, I got it. I think the particulars matter, though. I think we actually need to get into the particulars because you could say the same thing about being simply being gay or or a gay pride parade. You could say that is just poking the bear of people who are homophobic. I mean, why are they out there? Why are they provoking? You know, I mean, the part, I'm just saying the particulars matter. Yeah. In your case of bullying, of course. I mean, that's very, I think a very different thing than these attacks, which are a reaction to oftentimes a cartoon. Tune. I mean, there has to be some level of difference there, don't you think?

0:17:01 Jake: Yeah, I do. And that's an apt example, I think. However, when you look at, for example, a gay pride parade, you've got an oppressed minority who have been oppressed for ultimately, you think about it, basically since, yeah, For a very long time, all of a sudden after – I shouldn't say all of a sudden – after many, many years of struggling and fighting against society and societal values, they are able to come out into public and they are able to show how numerous they are and the fact that they are proud of who they are. And as a consequence, they have these rallies to demonstrate that effectively, that they are a part of the society, that they aren't

0:17:19 Thomas: Forever. Yeah, sure.

0:17:50 Thomas: Right.

0:17:50 Jake: You, and yet at the same time, they're still human.

0:17:50 Thomas: And I'm not. Yeah, I know. But what I'm saying is then and I think you're then you are agreeing that the particulars matter. I means, the the it's not simply provocation is bad.

0:18:01 Jake: The situation is important.

0:18:02 Thomas: Yes. The specifics of what the provocation is. And so I'm really curious now to hear what you thought about the the Charlie Hebdo situation. I mean, what did you make of that? Because it sounds like you're awfully sympathetic to the idea of never offending Muslims in a way. It's it's kind of weird. I mean, I'm I'm sympathetic to not purposefully doing it. But with something like Charlie Hebda, that's been a satirical paper that's around forever and they want to make points with cartoons that you're allowed to make a point with a cartoon. I think it doesn't matter how many people you piss off.

0:18:02 Jake: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Now, important, implicit, I think, in everything that I say is the fact that Australia does not have a Bill of Rights and Australia does does not have a right to free speech. So as much as I, well

0:18:53 Thomas: Can you even are you allowed to say that? Are you allowed to be on this podcast right now.

0:18:58 Jake: Said. Yeah. So, so colouring my opinion is the fact that I have, I have never legally had a right-to-free speech. Um, so it is, it is an, uh, an awkward position, I suppose, to comment from, but in, in the same, I still do value in inverted commas, free speech, the inverted commAS, free space. Speech that I do have in my society. Um, now would I, would I put out a cartoon that challenged the notion that a picture is sacred? I have done it in the past, uh, personally. So do I think it was wrong to do? For example, in the, in the Charlie Hebdo case, it's, It's a curious scenario. Do I think it was wrong? I'm not sure that I think it was wrong, but at the same time it needs to be acknowledged that it was insensitive. And I don't know, there are sort of, there are antagonistic, agonistic forces sort of working against what I'm trying to say, basically.

0:20:06 Jake: You know, you know what I mean, like Islam is one of those, is one of those religions that is particularly sensitive to very specific things. At the same time, they shouldn't be. And at the same time, it's ethnocentric of me to say they shouldn't be.

0:20:04 Thomas: Yeah, I do.

0:20:21 Thomas: Yeah.

0:20:21 Jake: So should have, should have they been killed for it? No, absolutely not. Uh, but, uh, but should they have done it? I'm not sure. That's, it's, um, it's, it's a hard one to say.

0:20:21 Thomas: Well, I, first off, let me say I'm glad. Well, let's get into it. I think that's, that's fair. Let me say first, I'm Glad actually that you said that I I'm Glad to have someone who's from a different background. Um, you know, I didn't even know that, that you had no, yeah, you're, you'RE black, aren't you? Wait a minute. You've been white this entire time. Never mind.

0:20:50 Thomas: Can't do this. No, at least in terms of of the free speech thing, I'm kind of glad that I because I think it is a very American thing. I've been told by more than one person, by more than like five people that the, this whole freedom of speech thing that we have going on over here is kind of specific to America and that in your, but also to France, it's weird. Um, but

0:20:42 Jake: It's so white. Oh, so sorry.

0:21:18 Jake: Yeah,

0:21:19 Thomas: Then of course, yeah, but then of course there was the, the whole bizarre thing about how in the same month as, as the Charlie Hebdo thing was going on, there was somebody who who was like in prison because of, oh, what was it? Was it Holocaust denial? I don't know. There's somebody in France who was in prison for something that was essentially free speech, but it was like a different kind of free speech and it was a little backward. So it's a very interesting thing. And I think if I were to make some comparison, because you do come across the people who say like, no, no matter what, I should be able to draw a cartoon about whatever I want at any time. And yes, I think that you should be able to draw a cartoon about whatever you want at any time. At the same time, there are reasons that we don't publish newspapers that just have the N-word written across them as many times as you can.

0:21:19 Jake: Yeah. France is very Very similar in that way, yeah.

0:22:10 Thomas: I mean, there's obviously considerations to be made for who you're going to offend. Defend. So I think it's a very difficult thing. So maybe that is indeed the line of common decency that we were trying to find earlier. But it's, I don't know. The thing about the Arizona protests here is that I think if it was a protest that happened not at a mosque, if it happened at It's somewhere else. If the gun factor was out of it and and it was merely a protest of certain interpretations of Islam, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing. I guess I still wouldn't. I don't know. It's hard to say.

0:22:55 Jake: The thing that stands out to me is that this wasn't a protest of, you need to recognise that when I draw a cartoon and I satirise something and when I look at this cartoon that I've drawn in order to satirised something, I'm doing it on the basis that nothing should be sacred to anybody in society. Society, if that was the mentality behind this competition, and when I look at the Charlie Hebdo case, I look at it and say, this is a group of people who have spent their life satirizing things in order to show that nothing is sacred, Literally nothing is secret. And they spend their time criticizing literally everything that comes up against them.

So that's where I think this sort of differs. I mean, in the Arizona case, you've got a group of people who aren't saying, we're drawing this because we want to show you that you now live in a country where it's okay to satirize everything. Literally everything is open. So if you, as a group of people, if you as Muslims look at this group of bikers and see a group of people who are just provocateurs and who are attempting to squash an already, what do you say, marginalized group of people, then I wholly encourage you to satirize us as a group of of morons.

0:23:37 Thomas: Yeah. Right.

0:24:34 Jake: If that was the message that they were trying to put out, then I would call it a protest. This wasn't a protest. It was an attempt at provoking. In the words that this dude said, and I'll say it again, unfortunately, we have to hold the cartoon contest to be able to show the true colours of Islam. They are attempting to get these guys to act against them so that they have, it's like, you know, come towards me so I can shoot you, you Know? That's how I see it.

0:25:04 Thomas: Yeah, right. Right, right, right Yeah, it's like the officer trying to yeah, exactly. Well, and

0:25:12 Jake: That's who I see.

0:25:12 Thomas: Another thing I just thought of. I think you make a good point, and you made a good comparison into when you talked about abortion clinics. I want to come back to that, but I just realized it, it would be for anyone who's in support of this, which I kind of highly doubt my listeners would be in support something this absurd, but you never know. Um, I think even, even if you wanted to take the point of view that you've kind of alluded to that, listen, you know, Muslims, you really need to be less sensitive, even if that's your stated goal, which I think can be true when you're talking, talking about to certain Muslims, certainly. I mean, Muslims that threaten death whenever you portray Muhammad. And there are a lot of them. I think it's an okay motivation to want to try to get those people to chill out a little bit. But even if that's your goal, I don't think you have a right to force them to see the image of Muhammad.

0:26:06 Thomas: You may have a Right to say, hey, if I'm going to draw a cartoon of Muhammad, you can't threaten me with death. You have to just just ignore it. If that's what you want to say, or anyone, like you said, any religion, anything, if I want to ridicule it, you can complain. You can, um, you Can make your own cartoon. You Can just ignore It. You CAN, you CAN avoid the image, uh, but you CAN'T be violent.

If I take that and then turn around, turn it around like these guys are, to where you're literally drawing cartoons and holding them like in front of the mosque, like almost forcing these Muslims to see them, I think that's well over the line, and I think that is a distinction that I think is very important, because you're not really, imagine if there is let's say there is a Muslim in that mosque, just hypothetically who is very, very iffy on the idea of the image of Muhammad but is not violent about it, but is still very uncomfortable but is doing the right thing in that he or she is a member of this country, is a citizen of this county, recognizes the freedom that you have to to, you know, make fun of whatever you want. And it's doing a good job of maintaining that, but then it just has this image thrusted upon them by people with guns. I mean, that's

0:27:24 Thomas: Rough.

0:27:24 Jake: And who are wearing shirts that say, fuck Islam, essentially.

0:27:26 Thomas: Yeah, I mean that's well over the line. Well, of course, that part. I was trying to isolate the variables and see if I could make it into not a horrible thing, but you're right. I mean, then you're wearing the shirt that says "fuck Islam," so it really all goes out the window, but I, I think it is important because I found that especially, oh, it's Pam Geller, Pamela Geller. Is that, does that name sound like something? Let me search it.

Um, especially because of the, the recent, uh, cartoon contest that she had. It's interesting because it is there, there is at least some amount of a blurred line. I mean, in reaction to the Charlie Hebdo thing I could see it as a suitable reaction to want to publish cartoons of Muhammad because in solidarity and spreading the risk and trying to, I don't know, trying to encourage the fact that it doesn't matter, you can't kill people for cartoons, um, but but the line just very quickly gets dashed over with this uh, this biker group, so, I I don't know, I think it's it's interesting to look at because I think people were a little more mixed about the Pamela Geller one. And I looked at that as her name that she held where there was the shooting. I mean, people were a little bit more mixed.

0:28:47 Jake: Yeah. Let me juxtapose it slightly with a different thing and a different sort of instigator. In Australia, just this last weekend, a Melbourne, I think it was about a 36-year-old man, he was released from, on bail rather, after being, sorry, he wasn't on bail. He was released after being found guilty on I think I think it was something to the order of 10 counts of attempting – well, basically being an Islamic terrorist sort of sympathiser, I think was the wording that they used. This Melbourne guy was super high, stoned out of his brain by his own admission in court and sent a bunch of Islamically, if that's even a word, motivated tweets to various higher level politicians, to various police agencies and secret police agencies, et cetera, and local police, et cetera, saying basically Islam is amazing, you're all terrible, you all deserve to die and I'm going to act on what I'm saying.

0:30:11 Jake: Paraphrasing, of course. Now, this guy was released yesterday and I was watching on the news yesterday while running on the treadmill while this guy walked down a street and was accosted, and I literally mean accosting, by journalist after journalist shoving a camera in his face, completely cornering him, completely countering him, standing directly in front of him so he literally could not do anything but react. Act. You know, he literally could not do anything but push against them, but push them in the camera, but, you know, but effectively do something against these guys. Now, if he had of, you know, using the, the, uh, the poking the bear with the stick analogy, if He had have punched one of those journalists who had, um, cornered him and they, again, they literally did corner to him as he was trying to escape from this journalist rabble after walking out of the courthouse. Literally just been released, immediately accosted. If he had punched one of them, he would have gone to jail.

0:31:18 Thomas: Yeah. And it's it's that's something that's very, very common with celebrity culture here. I don't know if you can go a week without some celebrity. I mean, I don't pay much attention to anything celebrity, but without seeing something about about how some celebrity punched a cameraman. And it's pretty extreme here with the paparazzi. I mean, I don't have to tell you. I mean you and I both have just paparazzi constantly.

0:31:44 Thomas: Just, yeah, I mean podcasters are huge these days. Yeah, it is interesting that people really ought to be more mad at journalists who do that kind of thing. And it is almost like it goes off the radar, at least here. But, yeah. That is fascinating.

0:31:43 Jake: Of course, walk out of this. If You look at this case, had one of the Muslims inside the mosque walked out and enacted some form of violence against one of the uh one of the people at this in inverted commas protest he would have gone to jail uh you know but again it's a absolutely

0:32:21 Thomas: Well, I still think that, I mean, Do you believe in the fighting words law? I mean I still think you need to go to jail if you do something violent unless it's in literal self-defense, right? I don't know. As much as I think these people shouldn't be provoking them, I don know. Do you take the point of view that the Muslims should be allowed to then be physically violent with them or yeah I mean I I would be sympathetic I I would be empathetic. I'm not saying I would be unsympathetic, and that I don't mean, maybe that's the kind of thing I don't know a judge could be lenient or something, but I do think it's important that I, I don't really believe in fighting words.

Like, there there were laws, uh, I don ''t know if you know what I'm referencing, but it could be just an American thing, but um, there were lies in some yeah Exactly, in some states that were. Or if someone said something suitably like alarming, essentially said, you know, I after your wife last night or something. I mean, there there were things that people could say that the the you would be excused for just punching them. Basically, you would, you would get off for that, which I don't, I don't know. I still think that.

0:32:49 Jake: Not no not at all no no and uh yeah I should have I should have chosen my words more carefully yeah yeah them's fattened words well judge you called me yeller well

0:33:37 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. I think that well, OK, that should be good. If you call someone yeller, you should be they should be allowed to punch you. I actually think that is a good law.

0:33:46 Jake: I just I just discovered uh in the last week what why that insult meant meant so much, you know, it was a, so yellow, yeah, as

0:33:53 Thomas: Oh, I want to hear this. Well, we'll take a break from serious discussion of Muslim Muhammad cartoons and all this to hear why being yellow was a was an insult. Go ahead.

0:34:07 Jake: A reference to the Chinese, basically, the mass immigration of Chinese that were brought over to the U.S.

0:34:11 Thomas: It always comes back to racism. It always does in America. There's no such thing as saying is as someone saying, you know what, this phrase and it'll be American phrase, you know what this really means. There's no such thing as it not being something racist, they're really like whether it's the rule of thumb which, or misogynist I guess, or it's some other thing like that, or being, or you know, being gypped, like there's just no such think. Every every saying I've found, at least in in this country, it all dates back to racism pretty much. I could have guessed all right.

0:34:15 Jake: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Or

0:34:47 Thomas: We'll return to our regular scheduled, yeah.

0:34:48 Jake: Shakespearean Mercutio-style Shylock.

0:34:52 Thomas: Yeah. We'll turn to our our regularly scheduled serious programming here. Well, All right, so it turns out that was a good break point for the first part. The second part is great because we got a interview with I play a CNN interview with the person who started the rally, and... then I read from a very, very well written article by a Muslim reacting to this, which I think is very important. So that's what we have in store for part two, plus some additional discussion, of course. I want to thank you all for listening and thank Jake for part one. And of Of course, I'll thank him for part two as well. And if you want to hear more of Jake, because I love doing the show with Jake. We have a great rapport, I think, together. And if You Want to Hear More of That, go to patreon.com/atheist, and you can get that weekly bonus content.

0:34:52 Jake: Yeah.

0:35:55 Thomas: This week, the one currently out, we We talked about the death penalty Dzhokhar Tsarnaev got, and that sort of thing, and also there was another case in the world of the death penalty. It was interesting, very interesting discussion, and it went on pretty long, actually, so it's an entire bonus episode the length of a full show. So that's something you can get every week at patreon.com/atheist. Make a small contribution today, you will barely notice it, and And it makes a big difference, and it helps the show. So thank you so much, and thank you to my kind, kind patrons for supporting me. I really, really appreciate it. And the show would not go on without your support. All right, well, I will see you guys on Thursday for part two on this topic.