The Christian Reboot of the Scopes Monkey Trial Nobody Asked For

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Thomas: Hey, folks. It's Thomas. Got a couple of things to tell you real quick before we get to really funny Law'd Awful Movies. First, apologies, uh, for no Vapid Response this week. Turns out Matt has gotten so sick that he's completely lost his voice. Uh, pretty concerned about it. He said that he has pneumonia. I don't know if that means he definitely has pneumonia, I don't remember how bad pneumonia is, but he's, he has no voice. We thought we were going, going to be able to record Rapid Response, and then we're like touch and go. And then now we're not even sure if we can record Rapid Response. We're supposed to record today. Matt couldn't do it. Not, I, not blaming Matt at all, just letting you know what's going on. So we're really hoping we can record Rapid Response, but it's, it's possible we can't. And this brings up something I've been wanting to put out there, because this, combined with the fact that Jenessa has said she now has less time to do the show, made me think maybe we could use a little more help on Opening Arguments.

0:00:55 Thomas: I would like to put out there, if you are a lawyer, or if you know a lawyer who is a good talker, who would be a good on the show, who could maybe tag in here and there, I would love to hear from you. So please, you, if you are a lawyer and you think you'd be good on the show, if you, even if you're just like, "Hey, I have one episode that would be good because it's my, like, subject matter," or if you're somebody who's more of a generalist and could tackle like a given story in the week or something, please reach out. Uh, Thomas at Serious Pod is a great place, or Patreon, or anything really, but Thomas at Serious Pod is probably the best place. Thomas at Serious Pod dot com. Kind of fluky, but kind of made me realize this week, like, oh, like, shoot, we're a couple of people being sick away from just not having the ability to do the show, which is not good. So, really hoping Matt gets better. I think he's feeling better, but it's just like the thing where, you know, your voice isn't there.

0:01:41 Thomas: You know, kind of that almost like lags in my experience, anyway, kind of after you're sick a bit. So, oh, man, poor Matt, I hope he gets better. And again, apologies for the scheduling here, it's entirely because of that. And again, like I said, maybe we can get some more help to make this less of a problem in the future, reach out. Right. That being said, for patrons, here is Law'd Awful Movies 1018, was a lot of fun, and if you're not a patron, here is a preview of a lot of Movies 1018. But, you know me, when I give you a preview, I give you still a good chunk, it's not like you, you know, five minutes, 10 minutes, it's like a good portion of the bonus, that it's still a worthwhile listen even if you're not going to listen to the whole thing. That's my philosophy on these. But, as always, if you'd like to get the whole thing, patreon.com/law. All right, here we go. Law'd Awful Movies, 2018, Alleged.

0:02:38 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Law'd Awful Movies, 2018. The movie is called Alleged, I think. Now, take one billion guesses, listeners, about what this might be about. If you haven't seen the description already, just take a million. I'll wait. Write down a million guesses. You're wrong. All million. There is no chance that you came up with this. I can't wait. Anyway, I'm Thomas, that over there is Lydia, how are you doing, Lydia?

0:02:46 Matt: Some reason I

0:02:57 Lydia: Hi I have some theories on alleged why well

0:03:08 Thomas: Like the title? Yeah, I mean, I kind of do. I'm just saying it's, it's not a good time, there's no way you would know, like, the other way is all I'm saying. And Matt, how did you enjoy this Christian propaganda?

0:03:20 Matt: Have seen the light, I have rejected, I've renounced my Darwinian ways, and I have realized that I've been supporting eugenicists all this time. So.

0:03:26 Thomas: Yeah. Well, here's the thing. I just checked. No one had ever checked before. I checked and they only got like three fossils. The whole all of evolution is like three fossiles. Yeah, it was four.

0:03:27 Lydia: Yeah

0:03:36 Matt: One of them's bad, that's

0:03:37 Thomas: And then one of them turned out to be just a tooth and it was wrong. And can you believe that we built our entire foundational understanding of biology and develop vaccines and cures and medicine and everything. And nobody ever checked if there are any fossils.

0:03:34 Lydia: Nebraska man and And yeah, just

0:03:37 Matt: Right, yeah. Yeah, never mind, yeah.

0:03:53 Thomas: Yeah.

0:03:51 Lydia: A random guy's tooth. Yeah, yeah.

0:03:53 Thomas: What are the odds that all that worked? Isn't that weird that it all worked science-wise, even though it was made up? We got lucky, I guess. Yeah, we got lucky.

0:03:53 Matt: We're the bad guys yeah

0:04:02 Lydia: Lucky, lucky.

0:04:04 Thomas: So anyway, why am I talking about that? Well, we watched a god-awful movie this month by accident.

0:04:04 Matt: Yeah, good stuff crossover.

0:04:08 Lydia: Yeah.

0:04:09 Thomas: I didn't know what this was going to be, but this is a perfect god-awful movie to the point where we might ask them if they wanted like borrow this, you know, if they want to like, uh, because it turns out to be the Christian retelling of the Scopes Monkey Trial. Yeah, there you go.

0:04:11 Lydia: No. Yeah okay.

0:04:25 Matt: As I'm calling it, Inherit the Spin. Have

0:04:28 Lydia: I like that.

0:04:28 Matt: You guys ever seen that, Inherit the Wind, because this is like the

0:04:29 Lydia: No, I've never saw it.

0:04:30 Thomas: Can't remember. I think I have, but I can't remember.

0:04:30 Lydia: No,

0:04:32 Matt: One of those high school theater classics. I've never seen it actually, but I know that what it's about, and it's the opposite of this, basically. I've just like

0:04:38 Lydia: It also has Gene Kelly, which is great. And I love Gene Kelly.

0:04:40 Matt: Spencer Tracy.

0:04:41 Lydia: Spencer Tracy.

0:04:41 Matt: I think, pretty pretty sure.

0:04:42 Lydia: Yep. Yep.

0:04:42 Matt: Yeah.

0:04:42 Thomas: Don't, but the thing I saw about Inherit the Wind is it's only like loosely based on this or whatever. Does it have the literal people? 'Cause I remember a movie of William Jennings, Brian saying, why do they always laugh at me at the end? And I'm like practically crying over it. Now, what is that? Is that not that?

0:04:49 Matt: I think Inherent the Wind is like loosely, yeah, it's, it's like an adaptation of the story with different characters.

0:05:00 Lydia: Does he say that, and Inherit the Wind?

0:05:02 Thomas: I, Matt hasn't seen it.

0:05:03 Matt: Question. Yeah.

0:05:03 Thomas: So yeah, I didn't, I don't know what that is. I've seen that. It seemed like an old movie.

0:05:04 Matt: I don't know

0:05:04 Lydia: Did you create it in your head. Okay, all right, thinking

0:05:08 Thomas: No, I did. I never in the world would I have created that whole cloth.

0:05:12 Lydia: About William Jennings Bryan.

0:05:13 Thomas: Yeah.

0:05:13 Matt: Should just have a show where we talk about movies we haven't seen that might be more fun.

0:05:13 Lydia: Okay, no,

0:05:16 Thomas: It would be the same as this one, because this movie, is it's really funny. It's actually, I, I kind of enjoyed it in a way, um, for, I mean, after we got over the gag reflex, um, yep.

0:05:22 Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

0:05:27 Lydia: Oh, my God, had to stop. We made it 45 minutes. We

0:05:33 Thomas: We had to do this one in two doses. Well, yeah,

0:05:34 Lydia: Thought it was over, and we were like, "Oh my God, it's only been 45 minutes."

0:05:37 Matt: Yeah, oh, I hear that

0:05:39 Thomas: So like cloying or whatever, it's just like, like the worst. I hate it.

0:05:39 Matt: Yeah. A very different way. We did not enjoy it

0:05:45 Thomas: No. I don't

0:05:46 Lydia: Yeah, and let me say really fast, the big one, this, of the biggest names attached to this project is Ashley Johnson, who, if you've watched The Last of Us, or if you played the video game The Last bus or if watched Growing Pains growing up, you know, you would recognize Ashley jones Johnson. She is the voice of Ellie in the video game, and then plays Ellie's mom, um, spoiler alert, is that, isn't that right?

0:06:07 Lydia: I don't know, whatever, um, but I saw a comment, comment

0:06:07 Thomas: Know. Who cares? I don'T remember. I say it cares. I know that's all very good game and whatever. And I like the show. I just don't.

0:06:13 Lydia: Yeah, I comment that said, "Oh my God, I hope Ashley Johnson fired her agent after doing this thing." Like, it's so bad.

0:06:13 Thomas: No, I mean, a couple of the actors are kind of real people.

0:06:19 Matt: Yeah. Well, you've got Fred Thompson and Brian Dennehy and Colm Meaney, uh, Miles O'Brien from Star Trek.

0:06:23 Lydia: Mania and

0:06:25 Thomas: That's who that is. I was like, I know this freaking guy. I couldn't place it.

0:06:26 Matt: Yeah. Been in a lot of Star Trek. Yeah, so yeah, that's actually yeah, and that's

0:06:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:06:29 Lydia: Nathan West, the lead, he was in Bring It On as a male cheerleader, wait,

0:06:32 Matt: Yeah, oh,

0:06:33 Thomas: God, I hated that guy. Hated the way he talked. I hated the way he looked, I had everything he did.

0:06:33 Matt: Never said I did not like him. Yeah. Everything about him.

0:06:39 Thomas: I, here's where I appreciated this after I got through vomiting. You know, when you suffer a great trauma, it's hard to remember how bad it was, know, you, and after that fades, it's like Lydia giving birth. You You know, it was, it fades away and that's how it tricks you into doing another one, you know.

0:06:40 Matt: Yeah.

0:06:51 Lydia: Fades, that's true, yeah, that's true.

0:06:56 Thomas: But it was like that. It was well, it's more traumatic than that, in that we were just barfing. It supreme, like the tone of this stupid fucking movie. The first 20 minutes of it has to be this stupid, it's a very specific sound and feel of a movie where they're like, "Oh, we're gonna set up a thing here in the small town we're going to," and like, all them, they did that though for an hour yeah, where it's like, we've got, it's not a heist, but it's everybody's gonna put on a production in the small town, like, it's all, it's hustle music or something, and it's because they've decided to put on the show trial, but that tone lasts like half the movie. It's alright, enough of that, like, Like, I can't take it anymore. It's a very weird thing.

0:07:04 Lydia: The beginning yeah.

0:07:05 Matt: Well,

0:07:15 Lydia: Ever happens in this small town. Yeah.

0:07:35 Matt: I've never seen a Hallmark movie, but this to me is what a Hallemark movie looks like, and sounds like, it's like there's something about the cinematography, the colors, it's just very Hallmark. I guess, yeah, that's what I'd imagine. Okay, God, I got that.

0:07:37 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. The music, everything, the acting, the dialogue. Oh, God.

0:07:37 Lydia: Yeah. Yep. Absolutely this is estimated to have cost about four million dollars by the way, for budget, the

0:07:48 Thomas: I bet. Yeah, there's... there's real money put into the actors. The yeah.

0:07:50 Lydia: Costumes. I think the costumes like, like were

0:07:53 Thomas: Oh, but sorry. I was going to say is the thing that I did appreciate after after the trauma faded was the creativity of spinning. You know, you know what this is? This is that book of like the big bad wolf is actually the victim. Them. His fault. It was not his fault, he was just going, trying like to borrow like a cup of sugar from the pigs every time or something.

0:07:53 Lydia: Really nice. True story of the Three Little Pigs.

0:08:12 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, it's that. Someone did that, and it's creative and it is funny. It's like, oh yeah, you made a thing where it's like all the pig's fault, you know, it is whatever. It is a fun thing, fun exercise, sides, it's probably a good lesson for kids to be like, yeah, it could be another side to a story. Um, they did that, but for this, but for the Scopes Monkey Trial. So seeing how they did it and how they tried to, they changed it from, well, obviously, like evolution is real, and, know, you willing Jennings Brian is kind of a, you know, creationist asshole, and they turned it into like, what if the evolutionists knew they were full of shit and were like plotting to like lie about it in this trial. It's amazing, it's, it's really, really fun to watch, yeah.

0:08:50 Matt: Sterilized kids. They're also, but for some reason, which

0:08:51 Lydia: Simultaneously

0:08:51 Thomas: Yeah, mean that part is kind of real, but not in

0:08:54 Matt: Well, actually, it wasn't in this case, I'll get into that, but this is actually the only lot awful mistake actually in this movie, the only thing I could point to, to say this is eigentlich legally incorrect, uh, we'll get there, we'll get there, but this, and I'm looking now at the, Lydia, the photo that Lydia has sent of Nathan and West, uh, in his what is this, the Bring It On outfit with

0:08:57 Thomas: Yeah.

0:09:08 Thomas: What,

0:09:09 Lydia: No, uh, no, it's him at the Fast and Furious red carpet, it's so 2000s.

0:09:11 Thomas: Oh, wow, he's like in a, yeah, what, is what's he in?

0:09:15 Matt: It's so different from this movie. It's

0:09:18 Thomas: Oh, yeah, like one of those, uh, what is it, a beanie or whatever,

0:09:18 Matt: Very funny. Type things.

0:09:16 Lydia: Yeah, has a goatee with a beanie, and like the chain, like, it's just, you look at it and you're like, oh, that was the year 2000, a hundred percent.

0:09:25 Thomas: Whoa, look at the J.R. Bourne photo. Nobody that good looking was in this movie. That's the guy who punched him, right?

0:09:26 Matt: Say, that's true, yeah, yeah.

0:09:30 Lydia: I know, that's the guy, that's the guy, the guy

0:09:33 Thomas: Wow, that's a good headshot.

0:09:33 Lydia: Wanted on the the fake trial. That happened, yeah.

0:09:36 Thomas: We need to find who took that headshot should get your business for a headshot, wow. Beautiful, beautiful headshot

0:09:34 Matt: Yeah, and Colm Meaney's headshot is from this movie, apparently. So that's kind of weird.

0:09:43 Lydia: Images. Yeah, exactly, it's not weird.

0:09:47 Matt: Come on, Colm Meaney, you got better work than this.

0:09:48 Lydia: Yeah,

0:09:49 Thomas: God, all right, well, I'm excited to get into this.

0:09:53 Matt: Before we do that, can I just, I'm just going to mention, just right up front, because I always want to be sure I establish this, I did read Summer of the Gods, which is the best book, as I understand it, based about this trial, so I wonder, I was familiar with the trial, I knew something about the history, the book's pretty good, and the screenplay claims to have been adapted somewhat from this book. It is not a Christian book, it has a straight-up historical book by Professor Pepperdine.

0:10:11 Thomas: Sure, and and the true story of the Three Little Pigs was adapted from the Three Little Pigs. Yeah. That's related to it.

0:10:14 Matt: Right, right, exactly,

0:10:18 Lydia: I will say for fun, I got the subtitle file from this movie and I asked Claude to compare it to the, because we have the transcripts for this trial, right, we have everything. And so I asked Claud to compare It and like a lot of it is pretty close. I mean the like the general idea, it's not like word for word, you know, obviously, but But

0:10:24 Matt: Sure, it's pretty accurate,

0:10:32 Thomas: They used my yeah, but here's the thing, they used so little of it because they had to stitch it together in the way they wanted,

0:10:40 Matt: For the good parts, yeah,

0:10:41 Lydia: Also did things on the wrong days for some reason. But

0:10:43 Thomas: I mean, that's that's

0:10:43 Matt: Yes, yes, and there's some people that shouldn't be there in different places, but there's also, uh, they left out some of the wackier parts, like, this, this was a really crazy trial, and I think they could have made it a lot funnier, but I guess they didn't want to do that, um, for some reason, because they should have made it funnier.

0:10:44 Lydia: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

0:10:44 Thomas: Fine, whatever,

0:10:54 Lydia: Well, yeah, because it would have harmed their message of spreading the word of God. So yeah.

0:10:58 Matt: Yeah, it's true.

0:11:00 Lydia: Distracted people.

0:11:01 Thomas: The start. Part of the movie is the, is in addition to the most annoying two lead characters. I mean, I actually like her, but it's just a shitty character and he's the worst. It's it's about this heist of these people putting on the trial for publicity for their town. And you know, I, give it credit. I actually didn't realize it was like that deliberate of a thing. I didn't know that's actually true.

0:11:08 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. It's a terrible rule. Yeah.

0:11:20 Matt: Yeah. That's all true, the reporter is completely made up. I'll say that, our lead and his girlfriend are completely made up, and honestly, I've never cared less about a love story in a movie than I can remember.

0:11:25 Lydia: Yeah. Nope. Nope.

0:11:28 Matt: I every time they're on the screen, I'm like, please get them off. None done. I

0:11:28 Thomas: Yeah,

0:11:28 Lydia: Not at all. Yeah. Yeah. But he is a journalist for the local paper that was founded by his dad, with big dreams to become, you know, more renowned in journalism.

0:11:39 Thomas: So good. I can't wait to talk about this.

0:11:42 Lydia: She also is does some writing, we we don't really know um, we know that she knows how to type, that's made clear in the movie because she'll end up being this, the stenographer for the judge, yeah, but it's setting up, know, his you big dreams and stuff, and then simultaneously we learned like nothing really happens in this small town and we need to get tourist a economy going.

0:11:44 Thomas: Maybe I don't. It's unclear. I can't wait to get to that, too.

0:12:01 Thomas: Yeah. They try to do some comedy about the baseball team. And like, OK, obviously, I'm the sportsman among us. The joke is that the team is bad. But the problem is they do that by insisting the team wouldn't even know the rules of how to play baseball. And that I find unlikely.

0:12:06 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah, no.

0:12:23 Thomas: And like, even even if they were high school, you know the rules of baseball, that... To make them out, this is just emblematic of how little these people understand anything, because it's going to be this for everything, where they're like, "Oh, the joke is these people will be a bad baseball team." You know what a bad baseball team does? They steal into a taken base, and then the... And then the wrong runner tries to run back to first. It's like...

0:12:43 Thomas: No, no one is that. No one above the the age of nine who's played baseball would do that. Yeah.

0:12:52 Lydia: Is doing that yeah yeah

0:12:53 Matt: Gonna sit this one out? Yeah, I probably would, but...

0:12:55 Thomas: Who has played baseball, much less the town baseball team, Matt?

0:12:59 Matt: Think I was like 14 and my father sat me down and tried to explain with Legos how baseball works, and uh, it didn't stick.

0:13:06 Thomas: It's so dumb.

0:13:11 Matt: Just, just to set this up so people know, if you're not familiar with the Scopes Monkey Trial, it was a setup, as Thomas said, uh, there was... was a law called the Butler Act that was passed to keep evolution... And not all evolution, but just evolution that would suggest that man descends from monkeys, all other evolution is actually legal to teach, as they mentioned at some point in this movie. And so they decided to bring some attention to the town, that they would put together a celebrity circus show trial, in which they would have Mr. Scopes, a teacher who may not have actually ever taught evolution, that's...

0:13:05 Lydia: Oh yeah

0:13:37 Matt: Kind of a fun detail. Uh, then they cooked up this plan in Robinson's drugstore, and this really happened. And they got William Jennings Bryan to come in and prosecute, obviously, Proacvice. And they got Clarence Darrow, one of the greatest, two of the great attorneys, right? And now Bryan had not practiced for like 30 years at this point, and he was a blowhard. He'd run for president a few times. I will say, just to set this up before we get going, William Jenning Bryan is played by Fred Thompson, who did run for president a few times, so I thought that was kind of fun. And he was senator from Tennessee. He was an actual senator in Congress.

0:13:37 Lydia: Yeah didn't know that I

0:13:37 Thomas: Yeah. Really? Where do I know that guy from? Him, all right, sorry, I'll Look at

0:14:04 Matt: He's been in a bunch of of stuff He was in Law and Order too, um, but I'm guessing that they have

0:14:08 Lydia: He has a face for X-Files for sure

0:14:04 Thomas: Yeah Is he in like X-Files or something He Like he would be Frazier Crane's dad like real Like the real actors

0:14:11 Lydia: Yes yeah

0:14:10 Matt: Oh totally Yeah but Yes He looks just like him, yes

0:14:14 Thomas: Yeah

0:14:13 Lydia: Yeah not not Marty Crane but actually

0:14:15 Matt: Totally

0:14:14 Thomas: And he kind of talks It like him actually, but

0:14:15 Lydia: Yeah yeah Kelsey Grammer Mr. Grammer

0:14:17 Thomas: Yeah

0:14:18 Matt: But I think I'm guess they, uh, they probably approached him, I was like, hey, excuse me, how, how would, like to pay Williams, Jane Bryan, right, with one of the great Tennessee stories, right? I'm sure if he is a guy from Tennessee, he was excited to do it no matter what the script was, I'm guessing, uh, maybe he didn't read the script first.

0:14:28 Thomas: Was in God's Not Dead, oh, okay, so he just did Christian films

0:14:30 Lydia: He's a, a Christian actor Yeah.

0:14:32 Matt: He is Christian, okay, well, that makes sense. He's from Tennessee senator

0:14:33 Thomas: He was in God Not Dead 2, the last movie on his, oh God, oh God he was on The Hunt for the Red October and he was in God's Not Dead 2, oh boy

0:14:35 Matt: All right Sad that's unfortunate I do remember that Yeah Um, uh, Scopes is a knowing defendant, like he knows that he's going to be found guilty for the purpose of, you know, showing whatever, right? The whole purpose is just to put the law on trial as a circus thing. We'll talk about what happened afterward. But this attracts the attention of national media, including one H.L. Mencken, who is one of my favorite journalists of all time, one of the great writers of the day. And they mistakenly, or I guess they probably just don't care, but they call him the editor of The Sun, which is never true.

0:15:10 Matt: They also treat him like he's a journalist, which he wasn't.

0:15:09 Thomas: Yep Yep I was, I have an hour on this but I want, it's so fucking funny.

0:15:16 Matt: Just, just to to keep ourselves awake, I was going to send you a couple of Mencken clips about the trial because he did a bunch of coverage, obviously this is what he's there for, here's the setup, I thought this would be pretty good to read out, just one paragraph, I'm going to send you right now.

0:15:25 Lydia: Right, July 13th the second day, yeah it would be hard to imagine a more moral town than Dayton. If it has any bootleggers, no visitor has heard of them. 10 minutes after I arrived, a leading citizen offered me a drink made up half of white mule and a half of Coca-Cola, but he seems to have been simply indulging himself.

0:15:26 Thomas: Your cigar there

0:15:57 Lydia: Oh my god.

0:15:57 Thomas: You go

0:15:57 Matt: Love that, it's so good, yeah, so that's Mencken, just for for those who haven't had a taste before. And he's like the Hunter S. Thompson of his time, going guess the closest thing. You know, he was an irascible dude. He was a great read.

0:16:03 Thomas: Couldn't be rast, I get

0:16:09 Matt: So, yes,

0:16:09 Lydia: So our lead character, Charles, who's this, you know, aspiring, fancy journalist, admires specifically H.L. Mencken's, you Know, work in the Baltimore Sun. And he does this by gathering up papers, newspapers from an incoming train and just like walks through.

0:16:09 Thomas: It and dork, dorky dork pieces

0:16:09 Matt: That's right.

0:16:27 Lydia: I don't,

0:16:26 Thomas: Get what is that what is that supposed to be, Matt?

0:16:28 Lydia: I hate it so much.

0:16:29 Thomas: He, the whole beginning of the movie is again, picture the fucking heisty banjo music where everybody's, it's It's a hustle and bustle and whatever. And he's going to run through the train and get all the discarded newspapers for some reason. I was like, is he going to sell them or no, just get some.

0:16:40 Lydia: Yep and to read them, just to read the articles and to dream about becoming a famous journalist.

0:16:49 Thomas: Okay. So the, the newspaper he works at doesn't have any other way to get a hold of, like, the other major newspapers of the day, is that

0:16:56 Matt: They did have the wire back then of some kind. I don't know.

0:16:57 Thomas: That what we're to believe

0:16:59 Lydia: I guess, yeah, yeah, I mean the newspaper he works at is now his newspaper and he's like the only one so

0:17:01 Thomas: I think they would have had subscriptions yeah

0:16:59 Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like they would be keeping up, but yeah.

0:17:06 Thomas: They would be keeping track of that, like that would be important

0:17:08 Matt: You would think of the big ones. Sure.

0:17:09 Thomas: Okay

0:17:10 Lydia: So then, you know, they, he and his girlfriend, they aren't engaged yet, but they become engaged, like, whatever, doesn't matter. They're talking about the writing and, you know, he kind of talks about his dreams, and then they go to visit, um, the gosh, what was it called, the institute for yeah

0:17:17 Thomas: Cares yeah

0:17:24 Matt: Colony. They call it a colony, women's colony, I think, or something, yeah.

0:17:27 Lydia: And it was for epileptics and feeble-mindedness.

0:17:30 Thomas: Which I bet they could have found a much worse phrasing for that, like this this part is obviously, I mean we covered what Buck the Bell or whatever at a certain point, like this obviously was awful yeah, like there were probably worse terms that people were called

0:17:34 Matt: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, which they do reference pretty directly. Yeah. Right. But you want to guess where this didn't happen? Tennessee.

0:17:47 Lydia: It didn't happen in Tennessee interesting

0:17:48 Matt: No.

0:17:47 Thomas: I didn't know yeah, it didn't, they didn't have one of these laws

0:17:49 Matt: They never had this law. So they're just trying to squeeze this in. Before we move on to the eugenics part, I just want to note my favorite part, which is very, it was very fleeting. I don't know if you guys noticed this. Point is a train goes by and Charlie turns to his girlfriend, is like, that was a train, she's like, oh, what, what was the purpose of that if you've never heard a train before what that was I went back and watched it again, it's so weird anyway, yes, so let's talk about eugenics, obviously, because the movie wants you to believe that Darwinism is evil, because it, they want to, they want make the point that eugenic, of course, was terrible, obviously, 20th century, a lot of bad policy, we've talked about it, we talked about how it influenced immigration policy at length.

0:17:50 Thomas: Yeah wow Wow. Yeah. The thing he does supposedly every morning. Yeah,

0:18:06 Lydia: Her oh my god

0:18:24 Thomas: Yeah

0:18:25 Matt: And how Congress, it was the first time that Congress used science to pass laws, which is very unfortunate.

0:18:29 Thomas: Matt my memory is a little fuzzy. Was this when they elected that all atheist Congress that they had for that time? I'm trying to think. Yeah it was weird that they did that, like, that's how, you know, my religious family has this talking point. Oh my god, one of the funniest parts, sorry Matt, I'll let you get back to in a sec, but in the trial when somebody mentions, like, eugenics, they did a little voiceover of someone saying Margaret Sanger.

0:18:36 Matt: Right, yeah yeah what a mistake what a tragedy

0:18:52 Thomas: Just like you're like, what it's

0:18:52 Lydia: Yeah yeah I know

0:18:53 Matt: I did hear that yes, yes, they really want you to know, they love mentioning her every turn

0:18:57 Lydia: Was crazy

0:18:58 Thomas: So funny, but my religious family does do that talking point, we're like, yeah, Margret Saying, blah blah and it's like, yeah, okay, no, I, I, I hear that, and there were people certainly who were probably atheists who were were using uh, science to justify horrible shit, but the country, the, wasn't run by atheists, you know, like, these laws were decided on by Christians, right, I yeah

0:18:58 Matt: Yeah yeah abortion yeah yeah no much so It's so funny because they really wants to pound this in about, it's just this, like, this plot which, just, they make up a guy and they make up of a girl and they makeup this whole plot about Tennessee having the sterilization law, which I never did, and they want to squeeze this in, there's even a line, you know, that the famous line from Buck v. Bell is three generations of imbeciles. Is enough right and they mirror it

0:19:35 Thomas: They even mirror that exactly we haven't we haven't even told them what this storyline is, so

0:19:38 Matt: Right, right, so the storyline of course is that we have a young black, and they're making a point that she's half right you're racist too if you support Darwin

0:19:43 Thomas: Honestly

0:19:43 Lydia: Yeah yeah yeah, exactly, it's Rose's half sister exactly. Exactly. I was, why? What, like, was the point of that? Like, why were they bringing that in?

0:19:50 Thomas: I mean, that, yeah, that is a lot of the people who are the victims of this, so like, that is all fair you

0:19:54 Lydia: Hmm. Fair.

0:19:56 Matt: It's not Darwin's fault, I mean, maybe but not

0:19:57 Thomas: No, no. Yeah. But I mean, like the portrait, if you wanted to portray this is a hacky portrayal. But if if you took out the part where it's the Christian propaganda, it's like, you know, it'S like kind of like roughly representing some mindsets back then. And little girl, a little half black girl who is could epileptic have very well been the kind of person that was was treated this way.

0:19:58 Matt: Really oh yeah sure in a state where they did that, yeah, it's

0:20:16 Thomas: Yeah. And say where they did that. Yeah,

0:20:17 Lydia: And then supposedly this facility is being run by Rose's uncle, Phil, who would also be Abigail, the little girl's uncle. I don't know.

0:20:25 Thomas: I don't understand that part. Like, why did they have that be it?

0:20:29 Matt: Weird, it makes it weirdly personal

0:20:30 Thomas: Yeah.

0:20:29 Lydia: I guess to put to put maybe pressure on Rose having to sign paperwork later, maybe because yeah, I don't know, whatever.

0:20:35 Thomas: Yeah. It's so dumb. It doesn't make sense, but yeah.

0:20:38 Lydia: It's at. They, they have, like, their little visit and then they move on. And That's, Kind of, Where We Leave That Storyline for now yeah

0:20:44 Matt: Not forever. Love to not. Have it, because

0:20:46 Thomas: I immediately called what was going to happen too. I was like, oh, she's going to be sterilized. They're going to do it. Like it's a hundred percent.

0:20:51 Matt: Of Darwin. Yep.

0:20:52 Thomas: Yeah, it's so obvious.

0:20:54 Lydia: Then we get the introduction to William Jennings Bryan right he kind of busts through and we get a speech that he's doing regarding the Butler Act specifically Jenning's Bryan then we We spin over to the drugstore meeting, right, because nothing's happening in Dayton.

0:21:08 Thomas: We, so we meet Jennings Bryant before they decide to do the, oh, like he was just in town. Oh, okay.

0:21:10 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're setting him up. He was in Chattanooga. Yeah, nearby, I guess.

0:21:16 Thomas: Oh.

0:21:16 Matt: Was actually that was correct, yeah, he was and this is a plot point because he's, he was actually speaking at some Christian convention and they're like, hey, as long as you're in town, let's do this trial

0:21:21 Thomas: Oh, cool. All right. Let's, let's do a scope monkey trial. You've heard of a scope monkey trail, right? We're going to put this monkey on trial.

0:21:26 Matt: Right one

0:21:30 Lydia: So then get this idea that the ACLU is specifically looking for a test case to kind of start challenging the Butler Act, contract, and they recruit John Scopes, who taught math and then substituted for science, from my understanding, and might have, I mean, in the curriculum there is the, like, word "evolution" in the textbook, so they said, "Oh, you probably did it."

0:21:50 Thomas: Sure.

0:21:50 Lydia: Oh,

0:21:51 Matt: Funny detail is they sold that textbook at the drugstore, I just think that's funny. Yeah, but it was like the state curriculum with evolution in it.

0:21:55 Thomas: Yeah.

0:21:58 Lydia: Charles gets an idea, our lead character here, gets an that, you know, this might make for some good journalism, so he, he tries to contact H.L. Mencken and, know, pitch the story, basically, like, let me write about this trial. And Mencken is like, unless you're going to get somebody who everybody knows as part of this thing, you don't bother to call me again.

0:22:15 Thomas: So good. So to Matt's point earlier, this This is where they've decided that H.L. Mencken is like a news guy who breaks news. And like the way they've tried to set this up is that the main characters and mainly the guy is this naive, impressionable lad who idolizes H.L. Mencken. He's such a good writer, but he does. Ultimately, the punchline is going to be it's the most simple minded point you could ever imagine. Everybody who is a Christian is good and everybody who is on the other side of the trial is bad. So then they have to be the most cartoonishly awful people that you can imagine so the process of the film is him finding out that H.L. Mencken is actually this asshole like they don't understand that he writes columns he's an opinion writer like he just he doesn't report on the news

0:22:41 Matt: Yeah, that His job to be an asshole, he was a professional asshole. Like most

0:23:04 Thomas: Yeah yeah fair but like THEY MAKE IT LIKE HE'S LIKE SORRY SON YOU'RE NOT GONNA MAKE IT UNLESS YOU START MAKING UP NEWS STORIES AND SO THEY LITERALLY HAVE HIM ENCOURAGING THE GUY TO make up news stories because that's how you be a news guy like H.L. Mencken that that's how much they don't understand how columns work or how journalism works

0:23:06 Matt: Of his writing. Right, Right, fake news, yep. Will admit, I actually purchased the screenplay for ten dollars, uh, well, no, I won't say that, I actually, I subscribed to Kindle Unlimited just for the month so I could get the screenplay. It's on Amazon, they, they have like a beautiful, like, book with color photos from the movie, like somebody really thought this was literature and you can just read the screenplay, and then it's in the interaction of the screenplay, he said he was inspired by the idea of beginning to tell this story the right way, and and show fake news in action, uh, so this is what we're looking at, um, it's very much through the lens of our times, just like Inherit the Wind is about McCarthyism, actually, this is about, I guess, Christian nationalism.

0:23:29 Thomas: Who would sell that okay huh

0:23:39 Lydia: Oh, wow.

0:23:55 Thomas: In 2010 by the way if we didn't say it so this is about how yeah but exactly and

0:23:57 Matt: That's true Yeah, yeah. So Obama times, yeah. Yeah,

0:23:57 Lydia: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 2010. Yeah, that Christians are under attack.

0:24:03 Matt: Persecution.

0:24:04 Thomas: They were killed them all

0:24:06 Lydia: And so naturally we have to, you know, we get some national figures, years. We get William Jennings Bryan, who joins the prosecution. This movie sets it up that Charles kind of connects him to the prosecution, he like sort of gets him to come on over. I don't know how exactly, but apparently, that's what happens in this movie. And then we learned that Clarence Darrow, after hearing that William Jenning Bryan was going to be part of this, has stepped up and offered his services. Now, from what I understand, Matt, and you're way more more familiar with this trial than me, that Clarence Darrow was not like necessarily a welcome member of this defense.

0:24:40 Matt: Right, they were, the ACLU was intent at first on not making this about religion. They wanted to make it about freedom of expression, freedom of teaching. They really wanted to keep the atheists out of it because they didn't want to make this into a whole atheists versus Christians thing, which is, of course, what it turned into. Yeah, it was pretty hot button stuff.

0:24:45 Thomas: Fair enough yeah it's like they actually cared about they seem to be the only people who were trying to do a real thing like they were like oh no we need to do this trial so that we can know maybe you get eventually appeal and go to the concert go to this room court

0:25:01 Lydia: Some groundwork. Yeah.

0:24:57 Matt: Yeah. Yeah. And they totally fucked up the appeal, like monumentally. Yes, we'll get to that.

0:25:08 Lydia: Man, yeah.

0:25:08 Matt: Because Darrow did, because he didn't know what he was doing, because he's not in, partly, but yeah.

0:25:06 Thomas: Did oh okay interesting darrow did yeah no I was gonna say so yeah Yeah. So the ACLU, though, is they didn't like that Darrow was involved in this. Right.

0:25:16 Matt: Right. Right. Right. But he, he's just too big a name, I guess.

0:25:19 Lydia: Yeah, and how does that work exactly? He just decided, "I'm gonna be part of this," and then did he just join as like Scopes's personal attorney kind of thing because like if the ACLU is like, "We're representing you," why wouldn't they be able to just have the decision at

0:25:23 Matt: Yeah. I guess he was on the team. I don't know.

0:25:33 Thomas: Have to imagine they wanted his big name. Right. Like that's part of the.

0:25:36 Matt: Yeah.

0:25:36 Lydia: Least at first? Yeah.

0:25:37 Thomas: Yeah, it's probably like just lots of people had different motivations and kind of that's how it worked out.

0:25:41 Lydia: So now with these big names attached to the trial, H.L. Mencken decides that Dayton, Tennessee is worth his time, and he's going to travel out over there, and, um, we get this scene of Charles picking Mencken up and and driving through town, where Mencken gives him the, um, encouragement that he, he, what he writes doesn't have to be true, right, he just uses the word "alleged" in front of it, and that saves you, apparently, as a journalist.

0:26:02 Thomas: Got. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

0:26:04 Matt: Hey, that's the name of the movie.

0:26:06 Thomas: Yeah. That makes sense.

0:26:09 Matt: This is the one time I don'T want them to use the name in the movie, in the, in The Movie.

0:26:09 Thomas: Alleged yeah.

0:26:06 Lydia: Yeah. So you can he like encourages him to write like salacious things, just make sure you say alleged in friend of it.

0:26:16 Thomas: Just make stuff up like, oh, the person has a love child, the person who was a something, a fake, had a love child with somebody, and yeah. So

0:26:22 Lydia: Pumpkin, whatever, some some sort of beauty contest thing that they were doing in the town.

0:26:26 Thomas: He just lies for journal, for news stories, is what they think that would be.

0:26:32 Matt: Don't think that's what he did. And also you can still be sued for libel for doing that. So for just recklessly throwing that around. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:26:32 Thomas: Yeah. Even back then yeah. More back then, because this is before yeah, New York Times v. Sullivan, to say something. Yeah, and this is the first time they do a thing that I hate so fucking much in movies, where, um, what's the guy's name, this doofus, Charles, will bring his like, I don't know, portfolio or something, and hand it to Mencken. Mencken will glance at it for one second, be like, well, you're a great writer, kid, but you're like, "What, what did, did you read? Like the place is Dayton, Tennessee today." We like, how far did you get? And you know, you really got some talent here, kid.

0:26:57 Matt: Yeah exactly. His girlfriend says this a lot too, that he's an amazing writer, and like, "You're writing about the pumpkin tween of Dayton, Tennessee, like, is this, is this a literary fiction like a literary piece

0:27:15 Lydia: Very compelling, yeah, uh,

0:27:10 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, like what? It's also, yeah, if you're doing reporting like they think he's doing, yeah you need to be a good writer, but that's kind of more about the reporting.

0:27:18 Matt: Right. Right. Not really the point.

0:27:24 Thomas: Whereas if you are making, that is about the writing because you are doing a column.

0:27:24 Matt: Yeah. This is that's your deal, right?

0:27:28 Thomas: You are an entertainer basically and you know and a thinker and all that. But like Like they try to blend the two like they're the same thing.

0:27:29 Matt: Yep. I don't think they know what good writing is, I think that's part of the problem. So

0:27:36 Thomas: Now,

0:27:39 Lydia: So with Mencken's arrival, this sort of sets off the next couple of scenes of everybody else's arrival. So William Jennings Bryan arrives, and then, um, Darrow arrives. In between, we learn that, um, Charles is asking Rose to marry him. Whatever, he pawned off the ring because he needed to get H.L. Mencken there, so he bought him his plane ticket, etc., etc. She says yes anyway.

0:27:58 Thomas: Plane ticket, really? It wasn't the train that everybody came in on?

0:28:00 Matt: Took a plane. It was a biplane.

0:28:01 Thomas: Oh, wow. Nice.

0:28:01 Lydia: Took a plane. Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:03 Matt: Yeah, I was wanting to go look up that, uh, that route, Baltimore to Dayton, Tennessee.

0:28:05 Thomas: Yeah. Every flight back then was a world record.

0:28:11 Matt: Totally, no.

0:28:15 Lydia: We're leading up to day one of the trial, really, um, but we get this experience of, you know, the town is getting, it's starting to bustle, right, everybody's like coming on in it's a real hustle and bustle.

0:28:25 Thomas: Yeah, there's a real hustle and a bustle. Did the music

0:28:28 Lydia: And then we get an event that, have an incident where someone is pushing another person out of their, out of their establishment, and says like, "I'll hear none of that evolution talking," by whatever, and has a gun, and I don't know, it's crazy.

0:28:28 Thomas: Indicate that?

0:28:46 Thomas: Yeah. Well, it turns out to be have been staged by the main character.

0:28:48 Lydia: Staged yep. By Charles. Yep, yep.

0:28:51 Thomas: And it's like that's how he gets Mankin's good side, I guess.

0:28:54 Lydia: He gets a taste for manufacturing stuff. Right, so then yeah.

0:28:56 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, like like opinion journalists do.

0:28:59 Lydia: Yeah. Mencken's into that and hires him to work for the Baltimore Sun. So congratulations, Charles. I don't know.

0:28:59 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, what, what is that like, I didn't understand that the whole time. I was like, does he mean like later when they go travel there, or no, you're gonna be like a correspondent with me, we need another one.

0:29:16 Matt: On the spot, sure. Deputized. Yeah.

0:29:14 Lydia: No, like immediately. Yeah. Yeah, because I couldn't do it just myself.

0:29:21 Thomas: Like, I can only make up so many stories at once. It's so dumb.

0:29:21 Lydia: Yeah? All

0:29:26 Matt: Need the local fiction, yeah.

0:29:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:29:28 Lydia: Right, time for the trial. Day one, Judge Ralston opens the court with a prayer.

0:29:33 Matt: Happen.

0:29:34 Thomas: It did. It seems a little little biased as well.

0:29:37 Matt: Uh,

0:29:37 Lydia: Yeah. And then Clarence Darrow brings up an issue regarding expert witnesses and how they're going to handle that before they begin jury selection. And I guess the most important thing here during jury selection is we learn one of the jurors can't read. And that is surprising in 1920s in Tennessee. That's super surprising.

0:29:55 Matt: This also did happen. This

0:29:56 Thomas: It oh, it did.

0:29:57 Matt: This this literally happened. Yeah. This exact thing.

0:29:59 Lydia: Yeah.

0:29:58 Thomas: Nice. So if you're doing the the real story of the Three Little Pigs, what's going to happen though is this guy has the old-fashioned horse sense, and you got, you got to not treat people who can't read as though they're somehow inferior, and the people who would do that are the atheists, and the People Who Would Never Do That Are The the Christians.

0:30:09 Matt: That's right. But

0:30:13 Lydia: Yeah.

0:30:18 Matt: They don't do anything with it really, except have his kid kick Charles at some point.

0:30:20 Thomas: Other than at the end. They ask like, "Do you think that guy should be allowed to have kids?" They ask one of the, it's like some, but scientists, I can't remember, and I'm like, what was that, did they, was bug, v.

0:30:27 Lydia: I know.

0:30:27 Matt: That's right. Because he never learned to read.

0:30:34 Thomas: Bell, like, yeah, if you find anyone and they, if you try to get them to read and they hesitate for more than like three, four seconds, you can chop their balls off, right, right there. That's just, that's just science, man.

0:30:34 Lydia: I know, sorry, right, like I just also don't feel like, like literacy rates were that great in small towns, yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

0:30:49 Thomas: Yeah. Rural Tennessee in 1920, whatever.

0:30:53 Lydia: That was probably, you know, more common than you would expect. I was colonel

0:30:55 Thomas: It's like most of them is

0:30:58 Matt: Interesting note when they introduced the lawyers. First of all, they have like clapping in the courtroom. Yes. So that's interesting. I looked that up. And that is a thing. So that is real. And he was not a colonel. Well, so hold on. Brian was a colonEL. He actually was a colonEL in the Spanish-American War. That is a coincidence. But in the South, apparently in some courts, this is a thing that they just call distinguished gentlemen colonels. It's just a deal, and, I according to the author of Summer for the Gods, um, it might have been a way for Ralston to show disrespect to Darrow, because it actually meant he didn't call him mister, yeah, they're just like using like this, this like throwaway term that they use for people in court rather than calling a mister, which would have been what you call a gentleman, but also it's just weird they call them colonel. But then again, we're up here in in New England, we call opposing council brother and sister, which nobody else does, so

0:31:05 Thomas: Yeah, wow. Oh, like emphasizing the difference, kind of.

0:31:38 Thomas: What

0:31:38 Matt: You know, we got a little quirks yes. Well, my clients have been confused more than once about like, why is that guy your brother, really? I like, it, it's it's a little incestuous.

0:31:38 Thomas: The, what the, man, how have you not told

0:31:39 Lydia: You do what no, that's weird. So,

0:31:47 Thomas: Me this until now? Yeah, that is

0:31:49 Matt: But I mean, it's just kind of emphasizes, you know, she

0:31:50 Lydia: Wait, so Casey has to do that with opposing counsel too. She has to say,

0:31:53 Matt: "Would have to do with me if we were on the other side." I

0:31:55 Lydia: The exactly.

0:31:54 Thomas: Wow, all of a sudden you're Ilhan Omar.

0:31:58 Lydia: It's all making sense.

0:31:59 Matt: Mean, we can't be on the side, but it'd be funny. Uh, but yeah, no, that, but there are these little regional quirks, and I thought that was strange. I had to look it up as soon as I had been paused at, as soon as he said that, that because he obviously they were dropping that, because it must be real, and then I read the book, um, so yeah.

0:32:02 Lydia: Yeah. Is so weird. I'm just, my mind is blown right now. I don't, I have to gather myself.

0:32:13 Thomas: Is very weird.

0:32:17 Matt: That, it's all right, sister, uh, I'm just so used to it.

0:32:20 Thomas: Hope there's a lawyer whose last name is like bear, or bear, or something, and you just have to be like, "Brother Bear," over there. Yeah.

0:32:23 Matt: You're right. That's right.

0:32:27 Lydia: No, that was like when, um, when Bonnie Vere won and the Grammy, and and Twitter was freaking out, they're like, and who the f is Bonnie bear? I feel

0:32:31 Thomas: Bonnie bear, like, who's Bonnie bear,

0:32:27 Matt: Yeah. Yeah, Uh, I just want to note, while we're getting Ralston, the judge, uh, was actually looking into a way, he loved this idea of the show trial, was very, he, he was all into it, he was looking at a way to basically set up an arena that could see like 20 000 people, he wanted to do like a huge show trial.

0:32:50 Lydia: Like a guy like that probably shouldn't be a judge, like that seems weird.

0:32:52 Thomas: Yeah.

0:32:53 Matt: Probably not, I also wanted to note, since we're getting the courtroom scenes, it was more than 100 degrees most of the time in that courtroom, which is why they eventually did it on the lawn. It wasn't just because of the capacity, it was just really sweaty. So he actually waived the requirement, the gentleman had to wear their suit jackets nicely, which we should just do.

0:32:53 Lydia: Yeah.

0:33:07 Thomas: Right, yeah.

0:33:07 Matt: Anyway, during the summer and the judge doesn't And apparently in Tennessee doesn't have to wear a black robe. I thought that was an interesting detail the time, at least. That just trying to imagine like it's the same thing when they're writing the Constitution, like they've in Philadelphia, like we've got the, you know, with the windows shut, like in 100 degree heat, wearing those outfits, wool, barely and drinking whiskey. Just what a time. What a time?

0:33:08 Thomas: I like that.

0:33:21 Thomas: Yeah.

0:33:18 Lydia: Yeah. They're just hot all the time, yeah. So we learn shortly thereafter, you know, that the the consequences of this law being broken are like not actually that big of a deal, right? It's, we're talking about, uh, no jail time at all probably, just a fine. But William Jennings Bryan's position is, William Jennings Bryan's position, this is very confusing with all the S's in the wrong places, his position is that we're forcing taxpayers to fund a theory of, you know, human origins, and that's not appropriate.

0:33:45 Thomas: Yeah. Wait,

0:33:54 Matt: So instead, they'll fund a show trial.

0:33:55 Lydia: Yeah, simultaneously we have H.L. Mankin coaching Charles and and trying to encourage him to play up the drama in his writing, you know, really paint a picture, you know, refer to these people as Bible thumpers, etc., etc. So he's just, you know, giving him some some feedback on his work early on, and then back to the trial we get the um motion to dismiss, uh, conversation here, and Darrow is basically, you know, requesting that the court dismiss this, um, that it's an attack on learning and it's inappropriate, etc., etc., etc. And Ralston says he'll make his decision and issue it later.

0:34:31 Matt: Yeah, this was a huge moment. This was like Darrow's big time to shine for this. It was a motion to quash on the indictment. He didn't really do a lot of fancy oratory in other places. But this apparently, Mencken wrote about how this is the best case he'd ever seen for evolution. And like, it was just like an amazing moment. Apparently, the other side like immediately congratulated him on how good it was, Which was pretty impressive at the time. And then the judge, this is actually pretty funny, it leaked that afternoon that the judge was going to proceed with the trial and not dismiss the indictment. And the judge got very, very mad and demanded to know who in the media had figured this out or how it had leaked, and it was actually because the judge had told them they're going to be going to trial after lunch, he just mentioned that on the way out, he said to the media

0:34:46 Lydia: Wow.

0:35:05 Thomas: So they kind of used this in the movie, and it was kind of real So They used it. But but they set up like a weird false thing where, since Rose was going to like type the order for him, she knew ahead of time. And then

0:35:06 Lydia: Yeah.

0:35:07 Matt: Leaked it himself. Yeah. I'm

0:35:16 Lydia: Because She was going to serve as the stenographer for the judge's, he's, he's, you, his order verbally. She was going to write it down.

0:35:21 Thomas: It's so pointless because they made it seem like maybe he got the info from that, but then he didn't. So then what was the point of that? Like, why would Rose be upset because she she didn't? Anyway, it makes no sense. Yeah.

0:35:26 Lydia: Right. Because conflict. Because we need conflict, right? And part of the other conflict is that Rose is not a fan of how Charles has been writing throughout this trial. His piece that he wrote about jury selection, he really focused on how the juror was illiterate. And she said, but he's an accomplished organist. Why didn't you talk about that?

0:35:50 Thomas: Yeah.

0:35:50 Lydia: And he's like, "Because it doesn't matter. Like, that's not relevant to what I'm writing about." But she really, really doesn't like that. And then they have another conflict because of the potential thought that he used her to try and find out ahead of time what the judge was going to order. So that could be leaked.

0:36:06 Thomas: Yeah. So I was just saying,

0:36:07 Lydia: Yep. Yeah, I'm just tying that all in together.

0:36:07 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:09 Matt: Going to send you some more Menken here, just so, just to mix it up, this is from that day.

0:36:13 Lydia: "The net effect of Clarence Darrow's great speech yesterday seems to be preciously the same as if he had balled it up a rain spout in the interior of Afghanistan. That is, locally, upon the process against the infidel scopes, upon the so-called minds of these fundamentalists of Upland, Tennessee. You have but a dim notice of it who have only read it. It was not designed for reading, but for hearing. The clang-tint of it was as important as the logic. It rose" "like a wind and ended like a flourish of bugles. The very judge on the bench toward the end of it began to look uneasy, but the morons in the audience, when it was over, simply hissed it."

0:36:38 Matt: A word Was actual hissing at the end, apparently. So, yeah, there you go.

0:36:50 Lydia: Wow. Yeah. That writing, Man.

0:36:52 Matt: Yeah, just

0:36:52 Thomas: Yeah. So but here's what we learned from the true story of the three little pigs. Actually, everyone in the courtroom is a Christian was awesome and they were super cool and they understood it. But then they were missed that they were like making light about it and made them seem like assholes. Like they literally just do that the whole time.

0:37:02 Matt: That's right.

0:36:56 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. So we get a confrontation from the judge, kind of what happened in real life about the leak. Charles confesses, but it was a thing that he had said at breakfast that but the judge had said at breakfast, he didn't use his connection to Rose.

0:37:20 Thomas: And so it is, as Matt said, in real life, I guess.

0:37:23 Lydia: Rose is still upset, though, because she said, "Hey, you tricked the judge. You basically still manipulated the situation. And I don't think you should trust Mencken. He doesn't seem like our kind of people, right? Dayton, Tennessee people." And Charles promises that he's going to report the straight and narrow from here on out and not kind of fall into these storytelling ways that Mencken is encouraging.

0:37:44 Thomas: No more just making up stories to put in the newspaper. Yeah. Yeah.

0:37:51 Lydia: Meanwhile, we have sort of like little, a made up, on the real side of things, though, or I guess the trial side of things. I And think this is true, in a certain extent. Just earlier with the grand jury, we have students that are arriving, people who witnessed Scopes teach evolution. They're arriving at the the courthouse, and Rose learns that they were coached by Clarence Darrow, because Scopes actually never taught the lesson, but the the student witnesses were, know, encouraged that, "This is, this is what you're going to say, this is the line you're gonna say." Charles shrugs it off as, like, whatever, it's not that big of a deal, like, we're here. And from what I understand, that's kind of true in terms of the grand jury process to get the indictment.

0:38:29 Thomas: Grand jury process. Oh, okay.

0:38:31 Matt: Which the indictment was actually kind of a mess, and the judge really like pushed it to the finish line because he really wanted to get this going. But yeah, a lot of lot of weird a stuff happening in the 20s and the less.

0:38:39 Lydia: Yeah.

0:38:36 Thomas: Yeah. But at this point it's like, who cares? We all want to have a show trial here, right? Like who gives a shit? You can imagine that there is somebody who taught evolution to somebody, right. Like we all, can we just, okay,

0:38:42 Matt: That's Correct. We're all here for the same thing here. Yeah. Yeah.

0:38:43 Lydia: Look, If, like, Judge Ralston really was, you know, like, more people come on in, you know, if he's wanting all of that just from an ego standpoint, he's not going to want to be like, "Okay, never mind, this is all fake, everybody go home." It's never going to happen. So now going back to that other eugenics plot, or the eugenic plot, I guess, we find out that that Abigail, the half-sister, needs to have an operation based off of her IQ score from all these aptitude tests that they've been doing. And the operation is going to be a sterilization, and Rose refuses to sign off on this.

0:39:26 Matt: Is what happens when you teach evolution, folks. That's what I'm learning. Yep. Inevitable a to b, that's fine.

0:39:29 Lydia: Yeah, that's the downstream consequence, of course.

0:39:31 Thomas: Yeah, your own uncle who I guess is an atheist, even though everyone there is Christian, he wants to sterilize her for some reason.

0:39:32 Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

0:39:36 Lydia: Yeah, I guess.

0:39:42 Matt: I want to point out there's absolutely nothing about the Butler Act that would keep them from teaching eugenics in Tennessee. See, so this all would have happened, and Darwin had nothing to do with eugenics specifically, so good luck, I don't know, whatever. Just make it a plot.

0:39:58 Lydia: Now back to the trial, we get some discussion about the expert testimony. We get arguing between the two sides about if the expert testimony is relevant and should be allowed or shouldn't be allowed. William Jennings Bryan says that it's only going to give the scientists access to like, you know, this is on the radio. This is a big deal. And it's going to gives them a chance to sell their evolution.

0:40:05 Thomas: I this to sell more science, a big it's plot by big science to sell more science.

0:40:25 Matt: Science, yeah.

0:40:23 Lydia: Yeah. And that if you let them do that, you know, like it's tied to the big evils of the world that, you know, like capitalism, which nothing

0:40:31 Thomas: So nothing to do with the trial that's weird, was that the actual argument or matter, I don't know, if this kind of random point, but that that was what the religious people argued in the trial, was that like, you're gonna let

0:40:33 Lydia: To do with the trial

0:40:38 Matt: Did nothing to the draw

0:40:44 Lydia: Good. You're platforming the scientists, you're

0:40:44 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, they don't platform these scientists.

0:40:48 Matt: That, I think they really didn't want to make it about like proving evolution to be true or creationism to be sure, so

0:40:52 Thomas: No. Yeah. That that makes sense because that's more of a legal point where it's like that that kind of makes sense for the law, like the law is, you're not allowed to teach evolution, the, and and at this low level of thing, you know, we're not at the Supreme Court or whatever, you're, that's not your job. Isn't to be like, well, actually it's true, right, I mean, it kind of makes sense to me legally.

0:40:54 Matt: Yeah. Right. Right. Right. And

0:41:06 Lydia: Not litigating the merits of evolution Yeah. Yeah.

0:41:10 Matt: They also wanted to put on experts, I don't if this came up in the movie, they wanted to putting experts who basically were modernist Christians or like, there's room for interpretation of the Bible for evolution.

0:41:17 Thomas: Yeah, and so that seems like maybe a specific appeal that, know, Darrow wanted to do, to like smooth over the differences between them, possibly. It's not really, I don't really know why it would affect the trial, going to happen. At first, Darrow is like, "Yeah, we need these scientists, we gotta get scientists to, uh, to testify," right? They're the scientists, you know, he's arguing for that, right? It's kind of my recollection. Then what happens is they have a shadowing meeting of atheists, and he's like, "All right, let's go over this testimony for" atheism.

0:41:41 Lydia: Practice, Yeah.

0:41:42 Thomas: "Yeah, let's give it, give me all you got, give me your best shot on atheism." And they proceed to say the dumbest series of shit you've ever heard in your life that has almost nothing to do with evolution. And And so what they decided to have this be is, over the process of this, Darrow and Mencken, by the way, who's there, realize that, "Oh, there's actually no evidence for evolution."

0:42:02 Lydia: Yeah.

0:42:02 Thomas: There's zero evidence for, they literally are like, so if William James Bryan gets up there and gets to cross-examine these scientists, he's gonna, he's going to destroy them. He's getting Ben Shapiro, he's gonna, William Jennings Bryan destroys evolutionists. Yeah facts and logic, that's what's going to happen. And so, and these quote-unquote evolutionists use Nebraska Man, which was already known to have been wrong at that point, like the person who discovered that, don't really, like, there's been a lot of like fake, you know, fossil, whatever, early human, whatever, I didn't look into it a ton, but it seemed like the person who found this eventually was like, "Oh no, I don't think this is that," and then a retraction was run in the New York Times, like, it was known that this wasn't real, this Nebraska Man thing, fossil, whatever, and it was just, extinct a pig's tooth, which is slightly different than what they say, which is, "Oh, it's just a pig's tooth," because that's really stupid to

0:42:03 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:42:15 Matt: Facts and logic, like

0:42:53 Thomas: Well, okay, you should know there's going to be that, but if, uh, it's an extinct pig, it at least is like, okay, we recognize that that's not just like some some pig, uh, anyway, point is that's what they have for their basis of evolution, that's what they're telling Darrow they're going to testify to. And so now, what they make up, what, what the authors of this are making up, they're fabricating a plot where Darrow, because he's such, such a smart, know, devious lawyer, is now finding a way to like, not have the scientists testify. So he's trying to get them out of it because it's going to be so bad for the case when William Jennings Bryan just mops the floor with them, because there is no such thing as evolution, apparently. Yeah. So what happened in reality with this, Matt?

0:42:57 Lydia: Little more interesting. But

0:43:40 Thomas: But as always, if you'd like to get the whole thing, patreon.com/law.

0:43:48 Clip: This has been Opening Arguments, produced by Thomas and Lydia Smith, with editing help from Peter Baird. The intro is by Thomas Smith. This outro is by Matt Cameron. Support the show at patreon.com/law. Contact us through Patreon or openarguments@gmail.com. Make sure to follow our blue sky, at OpenArgs. But most of all, please share the show. Thanks for listening.

0:44:20 Matt: Like to pay Williams Jane Bryan, right?

0:44:23 Thomas: We're going to put this monkey on trial.