Best of Tom: How Do We Protect Our Kids From Bullies? (DOD3)

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and honor dependent. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:27 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that always clicks the barbecue tongs twice before it uses them. I'm joined by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick, and I'm Tom Curry. Gentlemen, good afternoon. All

0:00:39 Thomas: What's up, dads? Think we could all, we could do a dad thing where it's like the dad noises as you try to get up from the sofa, like that's how we... Hey, hey, Tom, how's it going? Yeah.

0:00:49 Eli: I'm coming.

0:00:51 Tom: Okay. As I think the the only person over 40 on this podcast fuck you okay that's a legit response to any kind of physical movement that's

0:00:52 Eli: Sorry.

0:01:00 Thomas: I was saying the other day, it's it's It's a symmetrical sound. When you go down, you give the like, ah, yeah, you know, and then when you go up, you got to give like the reverse of that. You're like, you're like to try to get up.

0:01:05 Tom: That's true I I I have reached that age where there is no ability to move without some sort of exhalation like it just it I don't even understand how I ever did it I have no idea I wake up and the whole thing hurts and doctors don't want to fix it anymore more. That's kind of where I'm at.

0:01:26 Eli: I made a note of this the other day that I'm past the like, you know, I'm like, I don't like time where something is hard and I go, Oh, I should like get that in shape. And now I'm just like, I guess I should take some Tylenol. Cause that's going to hurt later. My, my mom was visiting this past weekend, which means my son sleeps in our attic. We have like a finished attic where we put him when mom visits and which means like climbing upstairs and walking downstairs with him. And I was just like, Oh man. Oh man, I really wish you knew how to navigate stairs without without hurting yourself. Come on, kid.

0:01:55 Tom: Now, be careful if you end up having a second kid. You don't want children in the attic. It's a whole thing. You just don't even be flowers up there. It is a problem. It Is a problem. So this weekend, I was hanging out with a friend of mine who I hadn't seen in a long time. He is a stay -at -home dad. Was actually telling him about this show, and I asked him to give kind of a listen to it in its early stages. We were talking about a bunch bunch of dad stuff um then you know we kind of got very briefly on the subject of bullying um that's a hot topic issue I thought I'd bring it up to you guys and I'm curious just experientially you guys bullied or were you bullies or do you have any experience in that sort of bullying realm fucking

0:02:06 Eli: It's the whole thing.

0:02:35 Thomas: I you know I need a minute before we get into the emotional uh session that we'll be talking about getting bullied ourselves but I I also think that like it comes to our kids and bullies this is an area where I genuinely don't know like that's that's what's so interesting to it to me because as someone who experienced some amount of bullying uh folks are so lucky I tell you you did either of you have no I know eli didn't tom mom, did you, you had a similar ish upbringing, but you're not from a small town. You didn't have to go to a fucking shit kicker school full of conservative truck, Jeep Wrangler, fucking whatever, Brett Favre, you know, like, I don't know, just the gene commercials.

0:03:00 Tom: Know brett barf just we're just saying the names of things now fucking

0:03:13 Eli: I want the rest of this episode for just to be Thomas naming conservative things.

0:03:17 Tom: All their just all their fucking grandma's drink tab fucking shitty okay now you're just okay

0:03:22 Eli: Boiled peanuts. Peanuts.

0:03:24 Thomas: Pretty much any stereotype you could, you about, and again, I'm from California. So it's not like I was in Alaska or some shit in the D you know? But like, it's a shit kicker town I'm from. And so, and as a result, schools were very small. So there's just such a low rate of success in terms of like cool people you could find, you know. You're stuck with like the handful of dick.

0:03:45 Tom: How small was your school like what was your graduating high school class how many people

0:03:48 Thomas: Graduating high school class was like 200. Hey, it might have been 250 yeah

0:03:51 Tom: A thousand there was a a thousand in my graduating class yeah

0:03:57 Thomas: Okay we comparing sizes now yeah okay and

0:04:00 Eli: It was around that with mine as well. It was like 1 ,000 or 1 ,500 something.

0:04:04 Tom: Yeah just for context yeah no that's

0:04:05 Thomas: School was like the good ending to the story that was like oh my god finally there's some people here for me like but in middle school in uh junior high I often don't know what to call it because as another result of being a small town person we just had a k through eight school and like that was elementary school for me was k through 8 and people had like I I learned you fancy city folk had like, well, there's kindergarten, then there's pre -kindergarten, elementary, then there's pretty, they have like seven different schools to get through to that. Is that what you guys did?

0:04:11 Tom: Shit uh well that's what I ended up doing but I will say that I went to a bunch of different schools so I went to school in new jersey and florida chicago and then the chicago suburbs before eighth grade and And so in Chicago public schools, it was K through eight.

0:04:49 Thomas: Oh, okay. So that's not like a crazy thing that just my town had.

0:04:53 Tom: And I did CPS, Chicago public school. I did that from first grade through fourth grade and then transferred to the suburbs in fifth grade because the high schools were dangerous where we were going to have to go. My dad moved out to the suburb to get out of the, before we could get to the high school because the school we were gonna go to was a dangerous school. I lived near Midway Airport, which if you know the area it's

0:05:14 Thomas: So a lot of planes crash into the high school. Is that the, yeah.

0:05:15 Tom: It's a lot of planes it's a plane problem yeah it's just terrible takeoff and landing situation that you wouldn't think they would point them downward as frequently that's yeah the neighborhood around airports is not generally desirable real estate as you might imagine are

0:05:26 Eli: But were there. Yeah.

0:05:20 Thomas: And the planes have guns too. The planes actually shoot guns. All yeah, good point. All this is to say, having had some bad experiences, as much as, you know, like I'm in on progressive parenting in so far as the science supports it, which it seems to, you know, we've talked about a lot of stuff before. I'm all in on that. I want to do better for my kids than, you know, past generations have. When it comes to bullying, that's the one area where I'm like, I don't know, man. I think if my kid gets bullied, I'm going to tell my kid to punch the bully in the face. I think that's honestly like and this is not out of some this for blood and Vengeance. I genuinely think that is the only way it gets fixed

0:05:59 Tom: We not supposed to do that

0:06:06 Eli: See, now I am crazy. This is great, because I also don't know, but I'm crazy in a different direction. I'm worried about my crazy in a different direc - I'm going to hit that kid's dad with my car. Because look, I - I am not a violent person, but I am no longer a part of culture. Like, whatever part of, like, social contract existed pre -2016 was shattered out the back of my skull when Trump was elected. So now I wear pug sweaters everywhere. And, like... I'm never gonna tell my son, Hey, you should punch the bully. But I might punch the pulley. And I, like genuinely do not have a metric for how my brain is going to

0:06:12 Thomas: That to that to yeah, I too

0:06:47 Eli: React in that scenario. There you go.

0:06:47 Thomas: Am very worried about that actually. Yeah, geez

0:06:48 Tom: I actually almost did that so my son was being bullied by a kid across the street so there's this kid who's a couple of years older than my kid my kid was maybe god through six so he was pretty small he was a little guy and there was a kid cross the street was maybe eight or nine which is a substantial difference in size and in boys this kid was just he was bullying the shit out of my kid and my kid would go over and like he'd be like yeah come over and play and they would judge he and another kid would just bully the shit off of him um so my kid had come home and he'd all upset about it and so so I just walked across the street and knocked on the door and his dad answered. And I was like, all right, here's what happens. Stops, or I'm going to take you outside. And every time my kid tells me that your kid bullied him, I'm gonna kick the shit out of you every single time. So I will take you out. I'll drag you out of your fucking house. And this was

0:07:36 Tom: Not the right response.

0:07:35 Thomas: That doesn't sound great Tom. No,

0:07:37 Tom: This was a terrible response.

0:07:38 Thomas: Great. Tom, that doesn't sound great. I don't know about that.

0:07:41 Tom: So this was a horrible response.

0:07:42 Eli: It sounds great to me. That's exactly what I picture myself doing.

0:07:46 Tom: But I lost my my fucking mind. Like as soon as I found out it was happening, I was like that little son of a bitch. And I just walked. I, I, it's a, it'S a stupid fucking thing to do. And it's not like zero out of 10 do not recommend. Absolutely. Do not recommend so ruined that relationship with the neighbor, ruin that like potential relationship between my kid and that kid created more tension than it, than it was bad. It was a bad thing to Do it was a dumb, bad thing. I worry about my kids getting bullied but I used to worry too like about my kids becoming bullies because there is for every kid that gets bullied there's someone doing it and you never know who your kid's gonna turn into you

0:08:26 Thomas: Things are complicated, like often bullied kids are also bullies to other kids. You know, like it's not a clean like my kids, the good kid that does whatever. And that's another thing I worry about is when you're about to go commit a felony, as Tom was about to do. Yes, I trust my kid. But do you trust your kid enough to commit a felony on their word? Like, maybe there's other stuff going on. I don't know.

0:08:50 Eli: That would have been the worst if it turned out it was your kid's fault. You're just on top of some guy in his driveway. And your kid is like, actually, I'm the one who stole the Nintendo. And you're like, well, now I feel silly.

0:09:02 Thomas: You're holding up his dead body. Like, he's fine, though, right? Yes, I'm fine.

0:09:05 Eli: Hey you're trying to prop him back in his chair look at you you're doing great let's let's put on some dallas huh you like dallas so I mean I've talked about this on my shows and on thomas's show but later on in school late middle school high school I was a bully uh not a physical bully but like an emotional bully which meant that I just was like shitty to everybody but I was funny so I got away with it um you know and I was also like my my high school had a drama department oh god in the ever

0:09:09 Tom: What oh

0:09:10 Thomas: Water under the bridge. Dead

0:09:43 Eli: If this show has a theme it's god eli is unlikable my school had a trauma department and I Was in a lot of the musicals so I had a lot lot of friends yeah all

0:09:54 Thomas: Drama in high school. We actually had a decent drama. Funny story. Worry. We had a really good theater facility and it's for the, I mean, kind of the funniest reason it's because in about 1990 fucking eight or something, uh, some asshole burned down the school burned down. Yeah. And it's actually kind of sad because they burned down that the like old portion, there was like a really old timey building that we had. Uh, and I barely remember cause I was pretty small back in, this might've been actually early mid nineties. I can't remember. But I remember being in it a couple of times. It was like the old timey school buildings and some kid burned it down. And so with the insurance money, the school actually built a really nice theater. And so that's the one thing that I did have. And it got me into theater. And I guess I'm thankful for that because I do love doing doing theater. So there you go.

0:10:47 Eli: We had an amazing drama program but

0:10:50 Thomas: And it wasn't because a redneck burned down your school that you had it. You just you just had one.

0:10:50 Eli: Like what no it was not uh but we had like a fine arts school within my high school which had an ib program which was really really wonderful but what it meant is that the usual like cool kids are the football players and not cool kids are the drama kids thing sort of split into the drama kids had their own cool kids their own section because we kind of had our own school and that facilitated what was a lot of me lashing out in um pain and look I mean the truth of the matter is I joke about this on my other shows because joking about it is a better and easier way to talk about it the truth OF THE MATTER IS I had undiagnosed mental illness and was good at talking right like Like, some people do different things when they feel, and I was just in a tremendous amount of psychic pain and wasn't old enough yet to be like, oh, this psychic pain is because my brain doesn't make these chemicals, so I don't need to lash out at the people around me. Also, like, there wasn't, like a fucking performance venue for a young roast kid, right? Like, that is the joke. That's always been the jokes that I do. I can tell you guys my roast origin story later, which is actually very nice and has to do with bullying. So it might be apropos to the episode, but like, that's always been my sense of humor with my friends and obviously has facilitated a lot of cool, cool stuff, a lot of charity stuff. But like, if no one's playing and no one said go yet, it's just bullying. And that's sort of where I ended up in high school.

0:12:21 Tom: I've been on both sides of that equation and Thomas, I think you made the point. And I think it's an, it's a, it'S a good point is that it's not always clear cut. Like you can be bullied and then be a bully at the same time. That's there. There's nothing mutually exclusive. Like you're just at the low end of the totem pole, or you're juste at the high end of this sort of bullying totem poles. I've I've BEEN, I 'VE BEEN IN ALL SPECTRUMS. I HAD A HARD TIME, time junior high and high school were not they were not good years for me at all um my dad was extremely extremely extremely strict so we'll talk about this I'm sure in other parts of the show my dad's rules were very very strict and so in many ways I was a very isolated kid so I didn't have a lot of social experiences and so I found myself like really fucking socially awkward a lot like deeply socially awkward and I was also very heavyset So dude. And so in the 90s, when I graduated school in 96, so that was not a good time to be a heavyset, socially awkward kid for sure. So I Bullied pretty good for a while in junior high. And then really my first two years of high school was a lot of bullying. Some of it was, was very physical. I got beat up a lot. Um, got in fights. I didn't really shy away from that confrontation either. So, um, a while I tried the whole turn the other cheek and ignore the kid and it'll go away. They'll get bored. And that does not

0:13:42 Tom: Work. That's nonsense.

0:13:43 Thomas: It doesn't work.

0:13:43 Tom: What they do is they escalate it and then they bring their friends over and then their friends escalate It. And then they kick the shit out of you for sport in front of everybody else because you've demonstrated that you're an easy target um

0:13:53 Thomas: Absolutely correct. If there's one thing I wanted to emphasize is that the bullshit picture you get from some of the fucking, I don't know, media cartoons, whatever of the, well, if you just befriend the bully and find out what's going on with them, that's nothing.

0:14:04 Tom: Get the fuck out of here right

0:14:06 Eli: Every time a group of improv adults came to your school and told you how to deal with bullies, they were lying.

0:14:12 Thomas: They were absolutely wrong. That is, again, as progressive Aggressive as I am on so many things, that is a lie. It's not true. You can't just befriend your way out of bullying. It doesn't work like that.

0:14:24 Tom: Absolutely not and like my life kind of did like a weird like like karate kid montage thing because I I was heavy set and I got tired of it and I I got tired of being bullied. And so I started running and I started lifting weights and I lost a ton of weight and I got in very, very good shape.

0:14:41 Tom: It was an eye of the tiger thing. It was a whole thing. Yeah.

0:14:41 Thomas: Oh, I thought we should get the, yeah. The best.

0:14:45 Tom: All of a sudden, never going to let you down.

0:14:47 Thomas: Sorry, end?

0:14:51 Tom: Then, you still mad, though. Like was an angry dude. And so then I went out looking for fights. Trying to fuck with people because I thought it was funny to fuck with people and I had friends that would enable that and so we did a lot of really mean, ill -advised stupid stuff and, oh absolutely.

0:15:08 Eli: That was also the behavior that had been modeled to you what power was, right? Like, no adult had stepped in and been like, true power is to lead others, young Tom. Right? You would just, you would learn to the hard way what power is.

0:15:18 Thomas: It's found in a book yeah no

0:15:21 Tom: I never told anybody anything, I would never tell my dad, if I got beat up, if I got whatever I would lie about it I'd make up a story I never once mentioned it to any adult like know how you guys grew up but like at least for me in the in the 90s as a parent a child of a single parent like that's not the role that we had it's not the relationship we had you didn't go to an adult to help you fix a problem you went to other kids

0:15:40 Thomas: Not at all I think we'll find that eli went to his parents about every single thing that happened every day is what I'll guess but no tom I'm I'm with you there was there was no because they just didn't fucking get it too I mean my parents as we've discussed were a little bit older than your typical parents so they're even for my age they're even more out of touch uh and it just felt like they had no fucking information for me like it It just, just nothing, you know, like there's no, there's, I wasn't going to go and be like, Hey, what do I do about this product? It's like, it would be some fucking nonsense answer that wouldn't do anything.

0:15:47 Tom: Yeah I right I always convinced I'd be in trouble so like if I came to my dad with a problem like my my dad'S NATURAL SOLUTION WOULD BE TO FIGURE OUT LIKE I WAS IN TROUBLE AS A RESULT OF THIS PROBLEM THAT I SO MY MY DAD MY DADA'S MY MY LIKE I WAS IN TROUBLE A LOT YOU KNOW I WAS GROUNDED FOR A YEAR AND A HALF SO YEAH DID NOT GO TO MY problems

0:16:25 Thomas: One more point toward the secret Hitler theory. Yeah, no, same. Absolutely. Same. That. So, and this is another component of my dad being shitty was if I came to him about anything or, or in any discussion, it was always about what's the way that you were wrong. In it you know there was no there was I used to laugh at the idea like I couldn't even believe it that other kids would have parents that would like come in and defend them you eli apparently would or like you get like we would I it was it was

0:16:57 Tom: My dad was the same as yours there

0:16:58 Thomas: Absolutely a foreign concept to me there's a lot of stuff that I'm sure will come up where I would see it in movies growing up and be like well that's not how real parents do anything right right you they don't like love Love their kids and do nice, right? That's not real fake. Hollywood.

0:17:14 Eli: What's a birthday? Day these movies these movies are weird meanwhile tom's like in the in the back fighting a chair and he's like yeah this movie's fucking stupid that's why I'm taking this chair down a bank so it's funny I went to my I did go to my parents about everything and they were incredibly proactive in helping me about stuff the the problem came because with my bullying right and I had a I had had a couple of incidents where like I was not in the wrong and my parents stepped in and they handled it incredibly well um but like with my bullying the issue was often that like someone would say something mean I would say Something Mean back do a tight five they would cry and then I was in trouble right and then what what happened is like I just stopped waiting for people to start I would

0:17:18 Thomas: There's a lot of that. Yeah.

0:18:06 Eli: Just go into my type five on everybody because it became the the eli is funny zeitgeist around my school became my thing like oh eli roasts everybody and I again I roasted the popular kids I roastedthe unpopular kids I didn't particularly have any friends right I had a couple of kids that I was like relatively

0:18:27 Tom: Still do that you roast your friends all the time you roast yeah right this is just how like you don't think you have I don't have any other way to interact with people other than to roast them.

0:18:34 Eli: I don't I don't know how to interact with with normal humans um sounds hard um boring and so like that that was hard for them to intervene in because a lot of the time someone else would start it and then when I was starting it I was like I was just joking around and my parents were like don't joke don't make jokes stop know and the other thing was like often you know the extent of it wouldn't get I wouldn't get told on right because the just my generation the that got like was physical bullying so the chubby jew with the glasses you know did a tight five on me as I went to lunch today was hard to report right and it um and you know not not to weigh in on another vote for punching the bully in the face but like one of the ways I learned to watch what I was saying is when I got absolutely obliterated by the nicest kid in my school um

0:19:33 Thomas: You go. There you go. I've heard you tell the story four times and I want to hear it again. Like, it's good every time.

0:19:39 Eli: So this is and I tell this is a funny story and people often are like oh you think that's funny I'm like no tell it as a funny stories so so I have no other way comedy is my way so uh there was this kid in my school named dj who I will not announce his last name I've told this story like six times I've accidentally just doxxed this human who's still very like we're friends on facebook

0:19:47 Thomas: Once again. Yeah. You have no other way of doing it.

0:20:00 Thomas: Wow. So you're, you're it's an ongoing bullying situation to this day. You're still just, does

0:20:05 Eli: To this day um when we went to high school his father passed away and I would just rip on him for it mercilessly constantly and like about halfway through ninth grade um he took me aside and I I always when I tell this story I always reflect on like like what an incredibly like thing this was for a child to do.

0:20:24 Eli: He took me aside and he was like, Hey Eli, I know you're like a jokes guy, but I'm in a ton of pain and you have to stop making these jokes. You have to stop. It really hurts me. And like, God, Oh, what an amazing thing. And I was like okay man, sorry. I'm really sorry. And they came in the next day. Um, and I was, like, hey DJ, I thought about what you said. Um, I want you to have this. And I gave him a card and he opened it and it was a father's day card.

0:20:45 Tom: Oh, fuck.

0:20:47 Eli: Then here's the thing. He lost his mind and beat the ever -loving shit out of me now I have to be clear this was not a bully this was Not an athletic kid he was one of those kids who just passed through the hallways of the high school being nice to everybody doing fine I think he's an accountant in my hometown now he never got in a fight before or after and he just destroyed like gorilla luggage test me he was just like his hair turned blonde and he floated off and there was fire all around his body and he just destroyed me cracked um if you ever look at a picture of me there's a chip in my front tooth that's from dj dj chipped that front tooth um

0:21:13 Thomas: Know, you can fix that by now. I'm just saying that's okay.

0:21:29 Eli: Know I could have fixed it but I I like it to remember him by and

0:21:31 Thomas: You leave it as it. Yeah exactly. A scar that reminds you of your origins

0:21:34 Eli: Broke my nose and my blood was just everywhere I of course am laughing I've been beat up a few times at this point so getting beat up isn't like a scary horrible process anymore I'm just like oh I did it again here we are once again so I'm laughing because the dalai lama is kicking the shit out of me right the sweetest kid is kicking a kid who up until that point was only known for his mom makes the best cookies at the bake sale was just throwing me against the wall and fitting me into an air conditioner vent so the gym teachers pull him off me right has my blood all over him they drag us down to the principal's office um is crying I'm still hysterically laughing so they think I'm crying my father is a teacher at the middle school down the street so they call him in finally when he gets there I calm down enough to explain the story and everybody the principal my father the teachers the monitor are like eli deserved this DJ here is a free sweatshirt from the school store because your shirt is covered in Eli's blood Eli you are suspended for two days you should probably go to the hospital and

0:21:53 Thomas: I feel like that isn't entirely everything is good in that story like the way it ended up to me that's all I mean you know I obviously hopefully it wouldn't hurt you too bad or anything but like otherwise every reaction and everything ended up in that story in my mind yeah that's how it should go

0:22:51 Tom: I know.

0:23:03 Eli: And the best part about this is that DJ for the rest because eventually you know they got us together and I was like hey this is not your fault at all and he was like I know and I Was like great good talk can we go back to class now but for the rest of high school whenever I would see dj he would make this little fist gesture because he knew how funny it was I ran into it's it's like six years ago now I ran him at the grocery store six years ago and I was like dj dj how you doing man and he did the little fist jester and I wasn't like yeah I was introducing him to my wife I was like this is dj she was like the guy who fucked you I was this is the guy that fucked me up yeah but again I like I I don't want to defend physical violence as a thing but that was wasn't necessarily that I got beat up it was a moment of everyone being like you are the bad guy um the part of the story that I don t tell is that on the drive to the hospital as they were resetting my nose for the fifth or sixth time um was genuinely one of the only times my father mother expressed like deep disappointment in who I was as a person, right? A genuine moment and I don't remember exactly what he said, but he said something along the lines of like, this is not the man I am bringing you up to be, right. Is not who you will be, right. I don'T care what we have to do to you to stop you from being this kind of person in the world. But like, this is over now. Um, and it's true. It was a big thing. Um. And, uh, shortly there after I had my first like I don't know if this is related shortly thereafter I had my first major depressive episode so I lost the ability to do anything but cry but that helped with the bullying

0:24:39 Eli: They'd be like here comes mr jokes and I'd be like I can't breathe because of my pain and they were like that's a weird one it was one of those adult swim jokes we haven't heard of yet yeah

0:24:53 Thomas: But that story and And thanks for sharing the version of it, too, because I do think it really bears a lot on this topic, because like, yeah, I can imagine, you if I were in the place of your dad in some similar situation, if I were, you know, for my kids like, Yeah, that that's incredibly disappointing like there. And I do think the upside of the limited upside of my shitty upbringing, maybe Tom's as well is I I do do you think you should obviously be in your kid's corner, but not pathologically in your kid's quarter? Like not, you know, like, not like no matter what you were in the right, that's bad. That's awful. Being able to kind of be, uh, not entirely unbiased, but a somewhat unbiassed source of saying like, Hey, uh no, you fucked up here. That is not son. This is not, this is not it. And I think it has a, it, and it clearly had a of profound effect on you, Eli. And I think it's probably because of, of the credibility involved, you in your dad. And, and think That's way the to be. I think it's a good, a good outcome there, even if it was a tough, tough road.

0:25:51 Tom: Had this like very like road to Damascus kind of experience that was like brought upon by this event by that switched you over. Did you because I clearly you still roast people but did you figure out how to take that down a notch like I mean how do you how do You watch that now because there's plenty of fucking adult bullies yeah

0:26:09 Eli: I mean what I deal with now and And the truth is, I've just sort of modeled myself after my dad, which is that my dad was a mentor and a collector of people. And what I do. And it's weird to talk about this on a podcast because in in our world and with you guys, that's not at all what I am. Right. Would be like third from the bottom in lists of things that people say about me as my podcast persona. But most of my life is mentorship. Like most of my day to day is mentoring young magicians, mentoring my students over at NYU. Like that is that is what I spend a tremendous amount of my time doing when I'm not doing this job. And is where I found a deeper, more real connection to people. People um what I recognized is like there's always room for jokes if the oh god this is gonna sound so corny but like there'S always room FOR JOKES IF THE LOVE COMES FIRST right if you've demonstrated to someone that you care about them extraordinarily those jokes are no longer ways to hurt people they're ways to make people feel included ways to MAKE PEOPLE um know feel happy a great example of this is like one of my closest friends uh and my worst friend right Right. Everyone's got like one terrible friend who you're like, why are you friends with that person? It's It's my friend Jason. And we call Jason Scrappy, which is a TV trope that means like the character on a TV show that nobody likes. Like when we gave Jason that nickname and when Jason joined the group of magicians that I run in New York, he was all of a sudden welcome into a community of magiciens. And underneath that nickname was, hey, we're here to teach you like you've got a group of friends now, you And yes, we are roasty. Yes, we all experience this when we hang out together. Yes, мы are roасти, but there's a tremendous amount of affection there because we enjoy interacting on that level.

0:27:56 Tom: Did you were You bullied were you ever a bully how did that go for you

0:28:00 Thomas: I would never say I was a bully, but I would, I would imagine there would be other people who may have maybe like describe me as that but it's hard to separate that from like you your standard friends joking around uh it's it's a complicated thing I was not at all a bully physically ever um a weird thing too I don't know Tom once again I'm curious how our how our dads line up on this. But one massive disservice I was done by my dad, I think, was that my dad was so not physical at all that it just gave me no sense of any sort of physicality, any sort of like healthy physicality with think that's important for, you especially in our society. I don't know. I can't speak to what it's like to be a girl growing up, but like, need a little bit, you know, you get a little of the horseplay, you need to a little, the whatever. And I had no sense of that. And also no sense of how to be physical in, in any sort of like fighting way at a young age. Um, that changed in high school. But, uh, I was in seventh grade was like my worst year. It was absolutely terrible. Seven to the eighth grade are among the worst experience. I don't think it'll ever get worse in my life than those years, honestly. Like, because because Because it just was so, again, nowhere to go. That's the worst thing about this. I'll call it bullying. But like, when you're in a situation where you're, you're in a small school, and I was always stuck doing some shit I didn't want to do. I had to, you know, my parents made me do a sport every single season, which oddly, I did like that. Like, I didn' like doing the sport. The problem was the kids part. You know? Like

0:29:30 Thomas: ,I wanted to be playing sports. I love sports. I was athletic, but I could not navigate my way around the interpersonal stuff because I wasn't mean. It weird to say, but in a group of small kids, if it's a certain kind of group, you either have to be just unbelievably likable. Like I think of some of the, some of the guys who were just like the cool kid, because they were just so fucking cool. You know, like the good looking kid who was good on the basketball team. He didn't need to like fucking be mean to anybody. He was just like, nicest could be a lover. Even I love that guy. He's great. And he didn't bully me either. Like he was just a nice guy. Like that guy got to just be a nice guide, be good at basketball, be cool, whatever. But it's, it's kind of everybody else, You know, who's like, they got to figure out where they are. And I had not an ounce of cruelty in me. Than unintentional, I I think I was unintentionally mean, from time to time, but not anounce of intentional cruelty in me. And as a result, I got stuck in a tough dynamic where I think some people realize that, you I think, Tom, you referenced at one point, like they, at a certain point, that was kind of picked up on that I didn't, I didn' didn't have that in me and so I started getting you know not physically bullied at first but but like you know just constant verbal bullying and I couldn't I was honestly it's it breaks my heart now it's almost talking like another person like it's about another person because I was just such a like fundamentally wanted to get along and kind of make jokes and have fun kind of kid that I just couldn't, I could not deal with it. I was not equipped to deal with It in any way whatsoever so ever and then some weird shit happened some really bizarre stupid situation kid shit involving like girls and stuff and I got my ass kicked for that reason and even it's the only time I've gotten my ass kick actually and it was in seventh grade and it had a fundamental profound effect on me and I wouldn't really call that bullying per se but there was bullying after that after you get your ass kicked then the fucking the bullying

0:31:24 Thomas: Comes as you referenced them and it it was funny because even to this day as was as I was in this shitty stupid fucking bathroom where this fight was going to happen I never at one moment was prepared to do any of that I didn't think a fight was happening I didn'T know if I was like I was so clueless I was still like out of it and the funny thing about getting your ass kicked that I'm sure Eli can testify to you and Tommy you did already it really isn't that bad like like assuming nobody assuming nobody like you weapons or something but like just getting my face punched in I barely noticed because you kind of go out of body a little bit and then all of a sudden my face was punched in and I never felt any pain never fat you know and I obviously you know since mileage may vary but it is interesting like it's nothing and the only point I make is it's almost zero percent the physical physical pain that is, was that a problem for me anyway. I was big for myself. It's everything that comes with it. You know, it's the embarrassment.

0:32:18 Tom: Humiliating to get beat up

0:32:19 Thomas: It'S, it'S all that. And that was, I didn't get out of that until high school. Unfortunately, high school wasn't great or anything, but comparatively just getting to access to a bigger group of people and being able to kind of find my niche, you the only point I'll make about it is to this day, what, what needed to to happen was if I had any physical wherewithal, I needed to fight back and I needed to kick this kid's ass or at least make a show of it or at least kick another kid's who bullied me after the fact because they thought I was an easy target. I needed to do that. That would have been the only way to put a stop to it. Honestly, there was no conversation that can do anything.

0:32:51 Eli: Or, right, or you needed an adult to empower you in a different way, which wasn't happening, right? Because of the time and place that we grew up.

0:33:03 Thomas: Well, as the parenting question now, when we're talking about how to raise our kids, what do you mean, Eli? What do you think would have would have helped? What do you mean?

0:33:06 Eli: So to say for us I don't think anything would have helped because this language and um dynamic didn't exist but if I think about it seriously I think that parents are able to talk to each other and teachers now in ways that our parents probably certainly your parents weren't willing to slash able to oh

0:33:31 Tom: So So there I will say, because I've got kids all the way up through the middle of high school at this point. And bullying is just it's taken so much more seriously by everybody involved. And I think I I think would really change that is the recognition, not that being bullied sucks for the person being bullied because you might get beat up because you might get made fun of but I think that people associate bullying with suicide and school shootings and we have in turn we have think we culturally gotten the message now that just letting the fucking lord of the flies -esque wild west bullshit happen in the middle of the hallways and let people sort of rise to the occasion of their fucking social abuse is not not actually a good way to, you and foster healthy human beings.

0:34:23 Thomas: Also what can you do about it? Because I genuinely don't believe the adults involved can do anything about it.

0:34:25 Tom: There's a zero tolerance. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I will say like there's very little bullying in the schools now. The schools have a zero tolerance bullying program or policy.

0:34:34 Thomas: Well, that's a big claim. I mean,

0:34:37 Tom: Well, it seems to work. I mean I talk to my kids about it all the time and I will tell you, I'm again, four kids at four different levels. We've talked about it through the middle of high school. Bullying is not what it used to kids aren't getting bullied verbally because they have people they can go to and then they call people in they call guidance counselors in and they've suspend people and they I mean they take action and they they check to see who the instigators are

0:34:37 Eli: Just get expelled yeah the bullying I didn't deserve the one the one incident of bullying I did not deserve was just a kid because like I had a big high school I was googling while while we were talking about it I

0:35:04 Thomas: This is like Putin talking about the reason that Ukraine actually. There might

0:35:13 Eli: Exactly I I was like I had like 1300 kids in my school and some of them were you you and living different lives and one kid just like didn't like the look of me once was in a bad mood and just started punching me for no reason and like my school understood that and expelled him like it was just like hey man you're you're fucking expelled and he was gone the problem was solved I think there's a lot more of that these days and I think that there'sa lot more square because the truth is when we were young and again this is not to blame you thomas at all but I think when when we were young, there was never an option of your kids going to get expelled, right? It was like, you know, two days, right. But you had to like, yeah, to burn down the old building.

0:35:52 Thomas: Have been but we have to be very serious yeah yeah no that guy graduated with

0:35:58 Eli: You're right. You had to get us a new theater department, but like nowadays it's like, Hey, if you make this building an unsafe place, you are gone. And I know this from college, the stuff that my college students, right, we, we hear the story. I, it hasn't happened to any of my students because I teach a very small and specific class but I I have been in the university when university students have been expelled for texting each other or emailing each other bitchy stuff like they it is it is a different and I hope better

0:35:58 Thomas: Honors no I'm just kidding yeah wow

0:36:29 Eli: World now

0:36:31 Thomas: I don't know is it I mean that strikes that me as overly punitive the other way you say the problem solved what does that kid do what the fuck is the expelled kid doing now they just don't get an education

0:36:38 Tom: Expelled kids usually go to a behavioral school so what you know what happens at least out out here because I The kid who bullied me the most aggressively my freshman year, he did get expelled after incident where kicked the shit out of me in a locker room for the too manyth time. He got expelled, but it doesn't mean he doesn't go to school. They still have to provide an education for him. So kids like that go to a school that's segregated for people with behavioral disorders or behavioral problems. Problems do get moved to a school with like a way higher student or lower student to teacher ratio people who are more adept at handling like issues that usually come with and create bullying you know because bullying doesn't usually arise exclusively inorganically from like good situations you know what I mean a lot of times it it arises from people who

0:37:24 Thomas: What you're saying is if we get to know know the bully, find out what's going on at home.

0:37:27 Tom: Have you can't kick them the fuck out and make the adults deal with them you know know and and create consequences they also have they've also created with the in the schools um students aren't tolerant of bullies either anymore and

0:37:38 Thomas: That would be the big difference. That would be what would actually matter.

0:37:40 Tom: And and that is a big deal and that's because from from the very beginning there is a lot of anti -bullying advocacy that the schools have have recognized and have done and so like if you're a bully like that makes you the pariah that makes you the outcast now that makes you the shithead yeah

0:37:56 Thomas: I I that's amazing that that cultural shift happened because we had some of the same shit, you know, we'd have the stuff where the adults or the, you Know, the shitty video from the eighties that tells you don't bully. And then, but nobody cares. Like the kids are just like, Oh yeah, that'S the idiot adults telling us you know that doesn't have any impact but

0:38:17 Eli: It's better and more pervasive of now I think because for us it was just like two 40 year olds being like hey emerson I'm gonna kick your butt at the flagpole after school and then the health teacher was asleep so you changed it to fucking the spice channel and now it's like it's a much more comprehensive and real thing a buddy of mine is a guidance counselor at a last chance high school which means if in brooklyn new york if you've been kicked out of two other high schools you go to her high school and it's exactly the situation that tom was saying and she said that it is fascinating to watch these kids who were bad if not the worst kid in two other schools make incredible transformations once the adults around them are aware of what's going on and what they need what services they need um she's just got some you incredibly heartwarming stories about where her kids have have come from and where they ended up right

0:39:12 Thomas: Is an enormous surprise because like honestly the a teacher just made things worse back in back in our day and I I'm I'm still a little skeptical that this is like fixed but it would be good if it is hitler

0:39:18 Tom: Did I totally agree with you yeah I think it's much much better than it was and again I mean it's funny because I remember I remember the moment when I decided like I should make some adjustments here and I'm going to turn out to be a fucking legitimately legitimately terrible person. I, I was, I was about 17. I had, and I'm curious what you guys feel about this too, because an enormous impact that your social circle has on your of tolerance for being bullied and bullying. And so I had a super toxic friendship with a guy in high school and sort of, we sort of like fed off each other. Like he and I had some real, we had like a real fucked up, very aggressive frenemies kind of dynamic. And we had this sort of slow motion falling out over the course of a summer. And then I found myself my senior year of high school without any social circle of any kind at all. And again, my dad kept me very isolated. So I had to be home, but I had a 6 p .m. curfew every day. I wasn't allowed to be in any kind of sports or extracurricular activities. So I was a

0:40:27 Tom: Very socially isolated kid. And that's part of what made me so angry. So it's part why I lashed out as much as I did. But I remember that moment where I was like, I got to not be friends with these people anymore.

0:40:27 Thomas: Dad I hear you well

0:40:42 Tom: I got find different people in my life. I'm at a place where... And I stopped trying to have any kind of social interaction through my last year of high school. I didn't interact with anybody really after school or before school, a little bit of friendly stuff during the day, but nothing substantial. And just realized I had to get my fucking life in order or I was going to end up being fucking bully for the rest of my life. There's a path for bullies where you're selling insurance at some And you're just a fucking shithead. So I that. And I remember how important realizing that social element was.

0:41:18 Thomas: Or by the way the bullies go on to have have great lives and it doesn't affect them in any way negatively. And they're actually fine because they're like, that also happens because we live in an unjust world.

0:41:27 Tom: That does. I know. But I don't know, man. There's got to be a moment where you change out of that. Because if you solve your problems by intimidating people, t see that at the very highest levels of success. The highest levels of success, people don't that.

0:41:45 Thomas: Get to do the thing where they're, like, yeah, no, I was kind of shitty, but, you know, grew out of it. And then, like some of the people they bully don't get to move on in that way, you you know, often.

0:41:54 Tom: Very true.

0:41:55 Thomas: And that's what I mean by that.

0:41:56 Eli: And know the the sort of second part of my transformation away from being a bully or at least interacting with people in only that way because I had some people who just like always liked it they were like ah you got jokes um but like the the second half of that was that someone from my high school told me how badly I had affected them um I was actually in college um like reached out to them like hey how's college going and they were like hey just so you know you were this incredible force for bad in my life and that that was incredibly transformative because I was not aware that I was hurting people unless they you know punched me or cried or did know signaled to me that I'd gone too far. And so knowing that I caused that pain for people was transformative. Also meant, and I still struggle with this a lot, is that a big issue that I still have is trusting people to be adults with me. A lot of the people in my life that I take care of or mentor will sort of forever be my babies right and I'm sure you guys have heard me refer to the magic group that I run my babies or my students as my babies um and so one of one of the harder things that I again that I still struggle with today is like of people as my equal uh if I have had to take care of them for a big part of our friendship relationship right on people trusting other people to carry their weight as opposed to just like I'll do it all um a lot of ways I think a lot of you know not to get too meta and certainly not to defend bullies or myself I think a lot bullies transform pushing other people away with hostility into pushing people away way in different ways and that's that's something I again I still deal with

0:43:48 Tom: It kind of all the way back, because I actually have thought about this topic a lot. And actually, it's one of my blog topics that intend to write about. So it's on my list. List. As dads, I'm curious if you have thought about how to create a situation where your kid does not end up being bullied, or if they do, how you'll interact better with it than threatening the neighbor dad?

0:44:11 Tom: Or how do you make sure that they're not going to turn into a bully? Because I've thought about this, and I kind of have a plan. I'm curios what your guys' thoughts are. How do you parent through this now like

0:44:23 Thomas: That's exactly what I was left wondering after this, because I really, I don't know. I mean, I Don't know what to think. I guess I'll have to try to like whatever school my kids are at, I'll have to Try to gauge what's going on there. If if what you you guys say is true. I feel like you could possibly manage this in as rosy a way as you guys are painting it out to be. Now I'm genuinely Genuinely confused. I don't know what to do. So what do you think? How are you worried about like Eli? Because you still have a child even younger than mine. Are you doing? Are you hoping your kid is going to be able to defend himself? Or are you more worried about Max being the bully? You

0:44:58 Eli: Not really worried about max being the bully he's a he's very sensitive and very very very quiet kid right now right now very quiet um so you know you got to speak before you can bully anybody so you know first things first um but yeah I of the things that he has and not that I didn't have this. But his mother is so gentle and so kind and so sweet and so loving and has demonstrated empathy, demonstrates empathy so well. He is surrounded by people who demonstrate empathy so well that I think that'll be very useful for him when it comes to not being a bully. One of the things that I Think is really important is an attitude towards school of like, hey, this is one option right wife is unschooled so my wife is entirely self -educated all the way up till college she never sat in a classroom until her senior year of high school when she took her GED

0:45:50 Thomas: What? We're going to need to do 10 episodes on that.

0:45:55 Eli: No she's unschool she educated herself at the library her parents taught her to read and write I think but then after that she literally would just like go to the library and learn what she wanted to learn until it was time for her to get a GED so she could go to high school and like studied took an sat book studied that got great scores on sat ended up going so like one of the things that I bring to my son that was definitely not an option is like hey if school's not working out for him you don't have to fucking do it right like if one of those genuine solutions I have if max is ever bullied is like yeah we're not doing that right like if the school fixes it great but if they don't I'm just gonna be like tight you know who loves you me and mom let's fuck it we'll do it here we'll do it at home and I know a couple of friends who have actually been through that experience who had a kid who was getting bullied in school and they were just like nah this is not the social relationship we want this kid to have and they made friends through their activities you know they do music or whatever at the school sports or whatever at the high school but they are unschooled or homeschooled for that very reason so that's definitely something I bring which is that I have I have no major commitments to any education system for any amount of time, right? Like, I'm psyched for it. I hope he has a good time in school, but if he doesn't, great, we don't have to do that.

0:47:12 Tom: Yeah I would never consider pulling my kids out of the I mean I guess I would I would transfer them I'd buy a house in a different district I would move them to a private school but I can't imagine trying to take on the task of educating one or all of the kids that just for me that's just like I just I shudder to think of my inability to do that and do that well I just don't like bully for you I just like on my mind I'm like fuck that I I don't I am not qualified and I went to school to teach and I I'm I recognize like I am I am NOT qualified whatsoever to do that no

0:47:48 Thomas: Interesting. Yeah, because it's also so opposed to what I imagine is also Tom's upbringing, which which was the world is there and it's my job to fucking figure it out. You know, there was no very much no in any way, no sense that my parents were going to change the reality of the situation in anyway. You know like my you know from a young age you know my parents said like if you go to college you can still live here if not you you are out of the house like you don't you wouldn't have mattered if I was like homeless they would've I wouldn't have been allowed in the house one minute after graduating high school or college

0:48:27 Tom: I'll tell you a funny story my my dad always used to say now I I think because of the way it played out I think my dad was was saying this sort of in a uh warning sense like don't get get in trouble my dad always used to say if you ever get arrested don't call me and think he was saying that to mean don't fucking get arrested stupid but my brother when my brother was like 20 something my brother got arrested my brother I don't want to tell his whole story because it's his and not mine so my brother was up in wisconsin we live in illinois he was up in Wisconsin. He was at a party and got arrested on a felony. Was kind of a misunderstanding, kind of not. It should have been something he got help with to get better a resolution than what he got. My brother, all our lives had internalized, if you ever get arrested, don't call me. So my brother sat in jail and didn't call anyone rather than reach out and ask for help. And my dad, I thought was going to have a third heart attack trying to find my brother and eventually tracked him down sitting in this jail almost a month later, you know, up in the middle of rural Wisconsin. He said, why the hell didn't you call me and tell me where you were? We were worried sick.

0:49:40 Tom: And My brother said, well, you always said, if you ever get arrested, don't call me. So like, I think about that and it actually dovetails back to this, this point nicely because like I think about that all the time that and I tell the kids like if you're in trouble fucking call me like if you're în trouble call me the same is true for the bullying because I've thought about like I'm worried about my kids in general being bullied I don't worry about them becoming bullies because of how they happened to turn out but I I did worry about that And I think that to avoid somebody turning into a bully, you've got to resolve conflict in front of your kids in ways that do not top the other person. You've gotto show them that conflict can be resolved without somebody being a winner and somebody else being a loser. Conflict resolution that is not hierarchical but that is solutions based and based in love and empathy and and you've got to show them that conflict and resolve that like openly

0:49:40 Thomas: Is a good lesson yeah man

0:50:45 Tom: And share that I

0:50:46 Thomas: This is this is a rose colored world I agree but

0:50:48 Tom: Think but how else do you propose to teach your kid not to be a bully right

0:50:50 Thomas: Well that's a setting that aside because I do agree with that like because your kid has control over that for the most part um

0:50:59 Tom: So there's two two problems to solve and I'm trying to make them discrete problems yeah

0:51:01 Thomas: Well guess and I don'T know what your guys's experience is and again because Eli was raised with a silver spoon I don't know if Have Eli ever had to be in a place where this would have been a problem? But like there are multiple times in my life where I've had to be in situations as a kid. And even sometimes as an adult, they're not often, maybe more as like a young adult where those rules don't apply, you had to work in construction for a year. Don't rules don'T apply. Why you dude in your shit town, you're working construction with is being an asshole to you. You don't, there's no way to tell there's

0:51:36 Tom: No that's true I guess I was thinking of it in terms of like kids in school, but

0:51:41 Thomas: And also for me, and maybe this has been, this is why it's so crucially important. Uh, and I'm, I'm genuinely confused as if, uh, if we live in a better world now, that's great. But as a kid in in where I wrestled in high school and that wrestling room, there was no no fucking where to go you had to deal with it there and you weren't using conflict resolution methods that like that I want my kid to still have that's the thing like I I fully agree with your philosophy there tom of how to raise them and I absolutely am going to do that and that's what I plan to do but my word I guess my my remaining worry is will they be as completely unequipped to deal mit those situations as I was where you just you don't Lord of the Flies -esque there isn't the thing where you get to like have a heart -to -heart with somebody and resolve a conflict it's

0:52:23 Eli: Really do think it is a better world and I say this just based on my sister right I'm 15 years older than my sister so I got to watch what my sister has gone through and what school has been like for her and it's just it's night and day it is genuinely a a world old now for kids um that those skills are more encouraged um funny when I hear you talk about it thomas um talk a lot about bullying in a lot of the way that I talk about mental illness which is like nobody's gonna be there for you and there's no meds that work you just gotta fucking squeeze your butt cheeks together and to not be sad and then someday day they'll find a pill that works and like one of the really hard realizations I've had to make is like it is a better world now than I grew up in and a lot of the like golden rules that I took a lot the lessons that I learned from my pain don't need to be learned anymore because it's a better fairer kinder world I

0:53:21 Thomas: Okay I don't know

0:53:22 Tom: That. I think that with, I've got, yeah, Thomas.

0:53:24 Thomas: Man

0:53:24 Eli: Love that thomas is just like yeah whatever checker after golf gesture

0:53:27 Tom: Man.

0:53:27 Thomas: The guy who led this show off with I don'T live in society anymore after 2016 we don't even have a fucking society anymore it's a better world sunshine fucking rainbows kids are amazing to each other I just don't I honestly I don't believe it but maybe you're right

0:53:32 Eli: Victims

0:53:41 Tom: Well, I don't 100% believe it. I think it's better. I don't think that it's gone. I do want to draw the distinction. So the conflict resolution stuff, I want to be really clear, I think has any relationship to avoid being bullied. I was talking about avoiding becoming the bully. You to solve for both problems. It has literally no relationship to avoiding being bullied, so I don't want to pretend that it does. I think to the extent that it's possible to create an open and supportive dialogue with your kids so that they can report back to you that they are being bullied and then then you can intervene. I think there are much better sort interventional strategies now that exist that are multidisciplinary and that involve many more of the partners in the school system. But outside the school system, and also just you're not going to have a kid necessarily who wants to tell you everything. I'll tell you what, I've got one of my four kids that she won't Don't tell me anything at all about her life, even the most mundane, consequence -less details of her existence. She does not share. It's just who she is. I am certain that if something was going on in her life she would handle it herself and not share it. So no matter how open you are, some of that is just personality of the kids. Some kids are just like, I'm going to solve this shit on my own. I'm not going to share. And I do think that you've got to open up a dialogue too. Too. And this is maybe this is regressive called, look, try to avoid conflict. But if you can't, you should be able to handle it as best you can. I don't think there's anything. And Thomas, I think this comes back to your point and my experience, too. Like, I don'T want my kids starting fights. I DON'T think my kids are well equipped to engage physically in fights, Just knowing who they are. But I don't want them to be. Hate to say it. I don'T want them to just be like pushover

0:55:39 Tom: Victims of somebody's

0:55:40 Eli: You don't want them to be victims yeah

0:55:40 Tom: Bullshit.

0:55:40 Thomas: That's the point I'm exactly driving at like and and and maybe it's unnecessary maybe years from now this will be like oh fucking grandpa Thomas with his old timey we must have been in World War II or something you

0:55:52 Tom: Tell the kids you don't have to put up with any bullshit.

0:55:54 Thomas: I intend to raise especially at look I don'T know know how to raise phoebe to like I just don't know the dynamics of of like I just think it's so different and I don't know other than just trying to model the and the good virtues that I want someone to have I don'T know what to do there but for my boy like I want him to be competent if something's happening and he would need to like shut a bully up like I want him to be physically like versed in the language of of, all right, you like need to shut the fuck up now rather than completely inept as I was at that time.

0:56:28 Tom: Agree with that more. I somewhat competent through a series of unpleasant experiences. It would have been better had I had some with that and so funny though because thomas in my head this is important to me because of how I grew up but I will tell you that I've had these conversations with the kids and they are 15 and 16 now and they have absolutely they look at me like I'm made out of fucking moon rocks when I try to tell them like hey you know if you ever want to go downstairs and like I can show you kind of how to you know if something escalates they're like what the fuck are you talking about

0:56:59 Thomas: That's, maybe that's what will happen. Well, I'll tell you honestly though. And again, maybe this is because of the uniquely weird way I was raised. I don't mean I'm going to Mr. Miyagi, my kids from a young age and, and, you know, like do all that. I just mean, I'm gonna wrestle with the boy. I'm on a, and I already do anyway, cause it's so fucking fun. Like we just like topple all of each other all the time it's the best I had none of that I had zero of that and it's a huge regret of mine it just doesn't I I think it's bad for you I think it is bad to be raised very hands off I really do and you go

0:57:13 Tom: I know but right

0:57:31 Eli: My dad roughhoused with me all the time and I roughhouse with my son one of the things that I'm better at because it didn't exist when my dad was roughhousing with me is like consent so I will pause with my son and I'll be like is this okay and he he gets a couple steps from me and does the more gesture which means he wants me to tickle him some more and I tickle them some more stop right

0:57:50 Thomas: We gotta do an episode on that by the way on the

0:57:52 Eli: And then he stands up and walks away and then does the more I mean my son will be tickled all afternoon given the drug he loves to roughhouse and wrestle around for me it's very interesting my father and we talked about this in the lost section um so this hasn't actually appeared on the show know, my father was not naturally a very violent person and was very Good at controlling it. Um, very early in my life, he was like, do you want to learn how to do this? But watching watching him do violence, I recognized really early that, like, I did not have that in me. So the way that I didn't get bullied was I was just like, it's funny, I was just like yeah, I mean, if I get beat up, I get beaten up, right? Like, I never was like, you know how to handle myself in a fight. I was always like I have a nose that's been broken several

0:58:41 Thomas: Can't

0:58:41 Eli: Times. How much worse can it get? But that really really interesting. And watching him, especially as I got older, watching him get better and better about that and learn, learn to control that angry part of himself, I think was a really important part of how I thought about violence. Cause, and again, this is a whole episode like talking about McKeesmo and are you really a man if you're not capable of violence? And like Like, my hero and my dad, who I adored, being so capable of violence tied that in for me so deeply that it was very, very hard for me to separate those things. Always I knew I wasn't capable of it, but it was really hard for my dad to do it. It was very hard to me not to be ashamed of it until I was much, much older. And again, credit to Dave Boz, he talked to me about it, right? I was like, hey, I feel like a big, you because I never want to fight. Right. I always feel like I'm a coward and, and on that, him being willing to vulnerable and talk about that was huge in how I think about violence still.

0:59:45 Thomas: Wait to talk to my fucking kids and and as you say who knows they're wise you never know like I can I can actually imagine phoebe being somebody who needs to share but also she is so so self -conscious in a way from day one she's been the most self -conscious um little bit neurotic in that way that I could imagine Imagine her just not wanting to tell us stuff because of like, wanting to be embarrassed or not wanting to feel judged. It's amazing. But I can't wait to try to at least, you other end of that and not only talk to my kids, but make sure one thing that that I absolutely trying consciously to not do like my parents did was don't find every opportunity to make them feel like a fucking idiot for whatever their struggle is, whatever whatever they were going through, not to belittle what it was not to be like, yeah, I was just a kid who gives a shit, you know, like, like to, to a kid, that's their whole world. Like that's the only thing that matters. And hopefully by not doing any of those negative things, um, will at least encourage that option to be there for them to like, you me about their day. Like I want to, I want To, you know, I

1:00:50 Thomas: Don't want to talk to them. I can't wait.

1:00:50 Tom: Well how successful you are is going to depend so much on those kids I I really you I think about the roughhousing thing you were talking about and again it's it's funny because Got four very discreet experiences I will tell you like the oldest boy in this house my my stepson donovan I've been in his life now for five almost six years and I have never and so he's 16 but he was 10 you know and like we rough housed once or twice he's just not into it the other kids will like all come attack me like the other kids'll all swarm me and it'll be like a whole like fucking you royale thing occasionally and you know I'm very careful with them I'll pick them up and set them down and pick the other one up and set him down we roughhoused like once um is funny actually and when I've tried to roughhouse with him what he does is he curls he drops to the ground and curls into a ball which is the he's

1:01:41 Thomas: So he does, he does George Michael from Arrested Development he does that

1:01:44 Tom: Literally just he's just like I'll like I'd go to like he'll like do like a little thing and I'll go to very gently because he's very small so he's He's like taller than I am. He's, like, 5 '10", and he weighs 100, maybe 105 pounds, right?

1:01:55 Thomas: Kids are so freaking skinny

1:01:56 Tom: So he's so little. And so, like I'll very – I'm always very gentle, but I'll grab him, and then he'll just – he'll go completely limp and just fall to the ground.

1:01:57 Thomas: It's funny yeah

1:02:06 Eli: A Like cat that doesn't want to move.

1:02:08 Tom: Yeah, and my other boy, my Finnegan, he's a year younger, and he's just the polar opposite. So he'S more like I was when I was his age. So he' s a fairly heavy dude. He actually outweighs me by a bit and he's about my height. And just a few years ago, I remember like two of them decided they were going to wrestle me. It was the only time I wrestled with Donovan Ruffhouse and Donovan ran after me and he jumped in the air and he is so little, I caught him and I tucked him behind my back and I just held him behind me. And I was like, oh my God, my back with my one arm. And then I just wrestled my son with my, my other arm and he just squirmed as he like was tucked back behind me and I it's it's funny because their tolerance and their interest level and even that kind of sort of horseplay which I recognize that horseplay is is developmentally it's sort of preparing you for that physicality if necessary but some kids they just have such a different tolerance or interest in it

1:03:00 Thomas: You would be interesting like if we somehow had the data from mirror universe like you were raising him from zero like would it be different or maybe maybe not. Like maybe it would be exactly the same. Um, that's one thing that really has been interesting in having more than one kid, which is seeing like how fucking different they are from day one, like day one.

1:03:11 Tom: Day

1:03:24 Thomas: It's unbelievable. It really puts some stuff into perspective. Um, and so I totally, yeah, take that on board. Like very willing to go with how my kids are in these ways. I'll tell you, Arlo is such a natural wrestler. He's been from young age he just he naturally does like and mind you I don't know if I mentioned it but like things turned around for me physically because I I up wrestling in high school and actually got really good at it and was uh competitive at it. And tell you from my experience Arlo if he wants to I have no idea if he want to he is built for wrestling like he could be a fucking champion wrestler he has no legs that's

1:03:22 Tom: One man yep well Really?

1:03:55 Thomas: That's step one no legs a large like broad back he's exactly the dude that I hated to wrestle because you can't you can'T get those you canT take them down because you're trying to get their legs but they don't have any legs all their weight is up top it's a he I'm telling you he could be a champion if he wants to or he won't do anything like that we'll see either way it'll be fun to to find out but

1:04:17 Tom: It's funny. Briefest, I told you my dad didn't let me do extracurriculars or sports. So my dad was very strict about that. And so there was no, he was strict about everything. I don't know why I even said that, but there was, like, there's no question about it. I wasn't allowed to do it. It wasn't going to happen.

1:04:30 Thomas: The trains ran on time yeah

1:04:32 Tom: So, I wanted to do these things. And So I joined, I Was allowed to stay after school until until the activity bus. So I was allowed to stay after school and work out in the weight room. But then the four o 'clock activity bus, I had to be on that activity bus but I joined the wrestling team and I loved it. And I didn't tell my dad about it. So I joined wrestling team my junior year, all sneaky. And I would go and I would work out with the wrestlers and I would like train with the wrestler and I love it and I got all the way up until the first meet and the meet was in the evening and I hadn't planned ahead because I was 16 and and I was like, I can't go to the meet, and the coach was like what are you talking about, and I'm like, well, I'm actually not allowed to be on the wrestling team and he looked at me like I was fucking crazy, and incidentally, he's the brother of Rudy from the movie Rudy, so my coach was Coach Rudiger, which is Rudy Rudiger he's like, what do you mean you're not allowed on this team and I just wanted to work out with people

1:04:50 Thomas: Man oh what a story oh my god you wow

1:05:29 Tom: Like I was just kind of I'm just like I'm just lonely and I want something to do

1:05:31 Thomas: So what happened I got must know what I

1:05:34 Eli: He home. What do you think happened?

1:05:36 Thomas: What Did you, was he like, let me, I'm going to call your Hitler dad or were, wow.

1:05:39 Tom: It kicked me off these say he said if you're not allowed to be on the team he's like you can't work out with us anymore and I was like I just but because I was Like can I just work out I just want can I work out and I'll wrestle with you guys and do the training and I just won't go to the meets and he's Like that's not he was really sweet about it actually but he's like he's a guy it's not how teams work and I can't do something your dad wouldn't let me do you know like he can't do that like like he would get in and shit, you know, it

1:05:43 Thomas: That's so brutal. Oh, that's so sad. Yeah. Oh man, that sucks. Oh, totally. Yeah. But like that also, that sucked. That sucks.

1:06:04 Tom: Does. So then I was just like, I would like go to the weight room when they're in the weightroom and I'd be like, Hey guys, they'd be Like, you're not, you You're not part of the team.

1:06:06 Thomas: Poor Tom. Face against the glass,

1:06:11 Tom: Like, what?

1:06:11 Thomas: You know, just like,

1:06:12 Eli: Just gently running your tongue up and down. So I also joined the wrestling team because my dad was a wrestler, state champ when he was young. Uh I wanted to be my dad so I joined the wrestling team and I loved practice and I loved rest I love the technique of it and the physicality of it and whenever we would go to a match I would have what I now know is a panic attack

1:06:38 Thomas: Oh, me too. We could talk about that.

1:06:40 Eli: And be absolutely unable to wrestle now I forbid my

1:06:44 Thomas: Oh my God. God, I could talk for hours about this.

1:06:46 Eli: Father from watching me wrestle I was like dad you can't come I'm gonna be too nervous he was like I'm proud of you no matter what and I was it's like, no, you won't. You have to not come. And so I, he didn't come to the first one and I sat in the locker room and then the wrestling match started and they blew the whistle. And like, you know, a chair was set down next to me and I fell down on my back and I was like, thank God it's over.

1:07:08 Eli: Oh, thanks. Sweet Lord. It's over as over. It over. And then he snuck into the second one. He snuck it to the second one. And he was like I won't comment. He's not going to the the second one and very obviously saw what was happening and I was you know I was like hysterically weeping that my father had saw me lose right like now he was gonna in my head he was gonna like rip off a shoulder patch that wasn't there and be like the name bosnick no longer applies to you and of course he was like hey you don't have to fucking do this man you you seem like you hate this. And I was like, I really hate this, can we please stop? And he was like, yeah, do you want to do the musical theater program this summer? And I Was like, yes, please, they're doing Les Mis, and I really like Les Mis. I want to play Denardier. And that was it. And I will tell you that one of the amazing things about my dad is he cheered for me without flinching in what I was excited for forever to the extent that when when I did my first high school musical famously in my family used to make fun of him for this all the time when I finished the first number my dad reacted like sports because he'd never been to any so my dad was like yeah boy oh in this theater of in this musical theater theater of like binghamton high school where everyone else was like yes musicals and we used to joke that like dad would was going to show up to my musicals with a foam finger but like there was there was no one more supportive and

1:08:43 Eli: He never you know the people around him would be like oh dave you know this one's not sporty he never flinched and one of the things that I'm so grateful for that I absolutely want to take forward into my son is even if he was ashamed of me and I I can't imagine that there There wasn't at least a moment where he was like, Jesus, what, what half of that DNA got ruined, but like he never blinked. There was never a moment. Where he showed me he was anything but super duper proud of me. Even, even when I, when was trying, right. When I was kind and doing things that I cared about, there was no bigger cheerleader for

1:08:43 Thomas: Man. We gone on too long. But someday I need to tell the polar opposite of that story. It more apropos and more polar opposite, just FYI. But that is super sweet. I wait to try to be that for my kids. I think, as usual, we've got the same kind of takeaways like, Tom's dad is Hitler. Eli, why aren't you a better person?

1:09:42 Thomas: And I'm a sad sack, I think. You guys can decide what my normal thing is. I like I think we pretty much stayed on brand.

1:09:42 Tom: It. My dad was worried about my academics it's

1:09:50 Eli: This twitter poll gets darker and darker every week we're gonna release all five of these episodes simultaneously and people are gonna be like we fucking hate you now we're going to be like okay this podcast was a poor choice all right gentlemen we go important question, what do you call a fish with no eyes? A fish...

1:09:52 Tom: God damn it shit

1:10:17 Thomas: I'm only laughing I hate dad jokes but I'm only laughing at that one because that's actually what phoebe called fish somehow is a bit it was weird you would somehow not pronounce I or just be fish can I have some fish and I thought it was the cutest thing

1:10:30 Clip: If you're hearing this, that means you're a patron and you're also incredibly good looking, so thanks for supporting the show and enjoy this extra dad story of the week.

1:10:38 Thomas: This is one that I uh can't believe I didn't tell, story number one, it's one of my favorites of all time. This is uh, and those who know me, I think hopefully should know that I, I don't make anything up, like I'll exaggerate a number but you'll know, I'll say like a zillion, you know, like this is fucking word for word truth and it's the funniest thing that's ever happened. I died for like a week. So one day I was playing with Phoebe and one delightful thing about kids, although I hope I don't find out this is just my children, is they'll just let farts rip, and it's amazing that the farting that a kid can do, I'm actually, it's impressive how loud it can be for their size. You know, somehow it's the same. They're working with the same instrument as us somehow. I don't know how, but it's amazing. And I love it because when kids are super young, you know, like one to two, they're not aware of any of that. They're not embarrassed about any of it. They just like, oh, don't even notice. They'll just keep going. They don't even react to it until we kind of teach them that it's funny, which I think is another interesting topic because I can't not laugh at it. It's the fucking funniest thing in the world. And so one day, just playing around with Phoebe, Phoebe lets one rip. I laugh about it because it's hilarious. I can't help it. And then I just was curious. So I asked her, I was like, hey, Phoebe, do you? You know, at daycare, I was like, do you fart at school? And she was like, oh, sometimes. And then I was like, I don't know why but it just occurred to me to ask, I was like, do the other kids fart at school? And then Phoebe proceeded to, and I swear to fucking God, with no hesitation, rattle off a list of who the farters were and the non-farters were in school. She's like, well, he does

1:12:13 Thomas: Um, so-and-so, such and which was impressive for a kid to even do this, like a young kid to be able to rattle off which kids are in her class is tough, but she rattles off and she knows this was, no, there was no hesitation. She knew this person was a farter. This person was a farter. And some other kids who, I don't, I guess they're fucking too good for me, they're not, there's some other non-farter kids. And I fucking died. It was the funniest thing. No hesitation. It was like I was asking her what color the sky was. It was unbelievable. So yeah, yeah, she, she kept track,

1:12:22 Tom: She has spent some time with this issue all

1:12:45 Eli: Who's

1:12:45 Thomas: Apparently, or just

1:12:45 Eli: In the green reading group? Who's the blue reading group and who are the farters and non -farters? Of course. All

1:12:52 Thomas: Oh, God, I'll never forget. It's so funny. Oh, kids.

1:13:00 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.