Samuel Alito's Victory Lap and Douglas Murray's Deportation Jetpack Fantasy

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:10 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Opening Arguments. This is Vapid Response 46 and don't we look great? Don't we just look amazing? Finally got our video configured better. You know, the world was not seeing Lydia and Matt in full quality and now I think hopefully they are and they deserve it. You know, you look great. How you doing Matt?

0:00:25 Lydia: Wow. Thank you.

0:00:28 Matt: Just slightly less pale. I'll take it. It works for me. Just very excited to come back and talk about some of the smartest people on earth as we always do every Wednesday. We got some good ones today in stereo.

0:00:31 Lydia: Oh, boy.

0:00:37 Thomas: Yeah. Oh. Boy. We've got Yeah, we've got the most obnoxious people, two of among that's hard to say, you can't, you can't say most, but two of the yeah yeah Oh boy, really, because I feel like Douglas Murray, to give it away, is always here, isn't doesn't live here asshole go

0:00:46 Lydia: Yeah.

0:00:45 Matt: Yeah. Transatlantic obnoxiousness. Yes. Yes. He lives here, but he sounds like he's not from here. Maybe we should ask some questions about where he's coming from and maybe send him home.

0:01:01 Lydia: Yeah.

0:00:58 Thomas: Somewhere else Yeah. That's the one thing, you know, it's too bad that that happened, that Americans just view people with a British accent as smarter. That's too bad, you know? And sometimes that's correct, but not here. It's just, he's got that accent and everyone's like, wow, he's so reasonable as he spews just the dumbest racism. But Lydia, how are you doing?

0:01:03 Matt: Yeah. He's got a good one too. Yeah.

0:01:11 Lydia: Yeah. Yep. Oh, looking good. Feeling good. So yeah, I don't know. Pretty good. Excited to be here. Excited to jump in.

0:01:26 Thomas: Yeah. I'm excited to, yeah, take on some incredibly stupid things. Why don't you give us a little more preview, Matt? What are we going going to be talking about

0:01:33 Matt: Well, this week there was an interview on Bari Weiss's CBS News with one Antonin Scalia, who's, you know, he said some things.

0:01:39 Thomas: Antonin Scalia from the grave

0:01:41 Matt: Oh, no, I keep doing that. The other one, the living one.

0:01:46 Lydia: In. Alito.

0:01:41 Thomas: Wow he's the he's the one who makes Antonin Scalia look like a nice look like miss Rachel it's

0:01:49 Matt: Folks, I'm doing anti-Italian discrimination. I'm so sorry.

0:01:52 Thomas: Yeah to be fair the category they're in for me is just asshole in charge of law so it's not it's not really the Italian thing is nothing to do with it they're both just asshole yeah I

0:01:54 Lydia: Yeah. Yep.

0:02:00 Matt: Yeah. Alito really stepped up into the Scalia role. Yeah. No, he really, like, he was an understudy the whole time. So now he's really got the leading.

0:02:06 Thomas: Would take five Scalia's over one Alito you know, just in my personal life, not in the court, not in the court, just in like, it just, if I had to talk to them, you know?

0:02:11 Matt: Yeah. It would

0:02:12 Lydia: Interesting. Oh, okay. Fewer flags.

0:02:16 Matt: Have been a, oh.

0:02:17 Lydia: Fewer flags, if that's what you did. Yeah.

0:02:17 Matt: Yeah, that's true. That's true. I mean, Nobody compete with, can compete with the flag game, but uh, I gotta say that would have been a much bigger story if CBS had the exclusive with Anthony Scalia. I would have been, might have had that, this might be the whole episode.

0:02:21 Lydia: No. Incredible.

0:02:28 Matt: But no, that's right.

0:02:21 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Who killed you? Did somebody have you killed? No, that's a conspiracy theory.

0:02:31 Matt: Uh, yeah, but gotta watch that a little bit, we don't have much, fortunately, um, and then we got to talk about this piece by Douglas Murray. We haven't talked about Douglas Murray on this show yet, I don't know if you guys have covered him, where these woke, he's very much, or where there's, what kind of character he's

0:02:32 Thomas: Yeah.

0:02:44 Thomas: Yeah. I'm sure we have. And I feel like we, I always feel like we've talked about everybody, but I, yeah.

0:02:45 Lydia: Yeah. In passing, maybe like a little bit. Yeah. But probably not in super depth in covering his pieces in particular, so this will be a good one. Yeah,

0:02:50 Matt: Uh, remember the intellectual dark web, that was or the intellectual dork web, as I like to call it, uh, you

0:02:57 Thomas: Yes. That is, we currently are that. Yeah, that's what we, you know, we've, we've covered that a lot for sure.

0:03:02 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Milo.

0:03:03 Matt: Know, you call that too. Okay, just checking.

0:03:04 Thomas: But yeah, Douglas Murray is like, who's the guy we just covered that got deported?

0:03:05 Matt: Yeah, Milo.

0:03:11 Thomas: Yeah, Milo. He's like, he's like Milo without the questionable, what do you even call what Milo said? The comments about sex with minors? He's like Milo without that really.

0:03:11 Lydia: Yeah, yeah,

0:03:11 Matt: Yeah. Yeah, No, Just regular racism and xenophobia, just the usual kind, yeah,

0:03:26 Thomas: Yeah. Probably would write a better book. I'll give Douglas Murray that. He would write a less stupid book.

0:03:30 Matt: Oh, yeah.

0:03:30 Lydia: He he Supposedly specifically did not want to be part of the intellectual dark web, like Bari Weiss included him and he was like, I don't want to be in this. But now he works for her, like for the Free Press and stuff, so yeah.

0:03:36 Matt: But he was anyway. Right, right. Yeah.

0:03:42 Lydia: Yeah, I mean he he works at a bunch of places, but yeah, they were very, very good friends.

0:03:40 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, he does? Oh, wow. I

0:03:42 Matt: Yeah, they're good friends. We will be.

0:03:45 Thomas: Remember when we covered the dork web, there were a few people who were like, I think this person said like, no fucking way, don't you dare include me. And that was a good move. I want to say Pinker. I want to say Pinker was like, no, right? I can't. Oh, man.

0:03:51 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really? I can't remember either.

0:03:59 Thomas: Hold on. Picture in your mind. Can you imagine Steven Steven Pinker in like some shrubbery. Like, cause that's what all the pictures were. They were all each person. I can't think of him.

0:04:04 Lydia: Yeah. Oh, oh, okay.

0:04:05 Matt: Yeah, that's right. The Dark Woods. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I remember that

0:04:09 Thomas: I can't think of a picture of Steven Pinker.

0:04:09 Matt: Piece.

0:04:10 Lydia: I thought you just meant in general. Could I picture him in shrubbery?

0:04:11 Thomas: No, no. I mean, can you imagine, can you remember conjure

0:04:14 Lydia: I was like, yeah, I can do that.

0:04:15 Matt: Not

0:04:15 Thomas: In your mind's eye, the specific memory?

0:04:16 Matt: My kink, but sure. Yeah. Yeah.

0:04:19 Thomas: It's not at all what I was doing. You creeps. I was trying to remember, like, cause if there were a picture of Steven Pinker in the bushes, like there was for all the other weirdos, we'd be seeing that every day. Like people would be like, oh yeah, this idiot, you know, know? Like, I don't think he did. I think he, yeah, yeah, he does.

0:04:24 Lydia: Oh. Yeah, yeah. I will say Steven Pinker seems to know when to like leave a situation because he did that same thing with the University of Austin. He was like, all right, I'm out, right, before it launched.

0:04:39 Thomas: Yep. Yep. He's, he's, he's dork web and just a little bit smarter. He's, he's able to be like, oh, this is not a good look. I'm going to not participate in this. I'm not going to be in a spread where Joe Rogan is, like, it, in one of them looked like it was a giant pot bush. It wasn't, but it, like, kind of looked like that anyway. So it's going to be a lot of fun. So we've got assholes, we got douchebags and what else? Else. Go ahead.

0:04:42 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah, Never mind. Mind.

0:04:58 Matt: Well, I just want to say, well, Douglas Murray, I mean, it's a longer piece from the free press, but I wanted to read it because it is the intellectual case for mass deportation. And we'll see how it holds up.

0:05:11 Lydia: Intellectual.

0:05:12 Thomas: It's just intellectually. I'm a racist. That isn't, I'm a racist, but here's my IQ score. Like what is that?

0:05:12 Matt: Yeah. Yeah. It's just, we should be doing more of it. That's what it comes down to, even though nobody wants it. So we'll pick this apart. May not be some things that are true in there you may be surprised to learn but Uh, I know, I know, I'll have to save that. Oh,

0:05:19 Lydia: Oh, wow.

0:05:20 Thomas: Yeah. No. All right. Well, that's going to be a lot of fun and probably really annoying and anger inducing, but no two people I'd rather be doing it with. Why don't we take our first break? Oh, and another thing to cheer us up. Let's thank our Hall of Fame patrons. Always so fun. Patreon.com/law. These are the folks that donate at that $5 level or above. Thank you to help. I'm trapped in a Patreon shout out. Weyoun11, and Matt said that was something, Star Trek.

0:05:35 Lydia: Yeah. Oh, right. Yeah.

0:05:35 Matt: Yeah.

0:05:57 Thomas: My house is a mess, but I read a lot of books. GriffTheTired2L, Matthew Cutler, twitch.tv slash mtc underscore streams, forgetting to change my Patreon name. I've Had crunch wraps more supreme than this court. I made the point last week, I stirred whatever that was, I stick by it, everything is more supreme than the court. Literally every Taco Bell product, as long as it's existed, has been more supreme than the court, so I'm agreeing. Unpronounceable nerd reference, I love that. Oh, man. Worm Court is now in session. All right.

0:06:09 Lydia: Yeah.

0:06:31 Thomas: That's so dumb. And I love it. I mean, I would think it'd be like snake court, but I don't know. That's also good.

0:06:31 Lydia: That's very weird. Yeah. Yeah.

0:06:37 Thomas: All right.

0:06:36 Matt: No, it's even better. I like it what

0:06:40 Thomas: That is so delightfully stupid. I mean, uh, Donna Treadaway, mother of inheritance, Mike Lapinsky, Easter Island, spining lobster, Matt, you got anything for that? I got nothing that on there. Easter Island Spiny Lobster.

0:06:51 Lydia: Easter Island spiny lobster.

0:06:54 Thomas: No idea.

0:06:51 Matt: Island, no, must be extinct.

0:06:55 Thomas: Could be for another show. Cyanitis. Good grief. Great preponderance of the evidence. Last train to Skanksville. I am not an abogado. What is that? I'm not an abogado.

0:07:05 Lydia: What? I am not an abogado.

0:07:07 Thomas: Yeah, but it's like A-B-O dash. Oh, oh, gato. Abogato.

0:07:06 Matt: You're Not a Lawyer. Oh, Oh.

0:07:13 Thomas: That's cool. I'm not a cat. That all fits. Interesting.

0:07:07 Lydia: Oh, okay.

0:07:15 Matt: Okay. That's pretty good. That works. Okay.

0:07:17 Thomas: Apprentice of Adventure Venture and Charlie Kelly, attorney at Bird Law. All right. Thanks so much, Hall of Famers. Let's take that break and then we'll get to it. So Matt, to quote the great Seinfeld, he looks like an old catcher's mitt. Who's this old catcher's mitt we're looking at?

0:07:21 Lydia: Nice.

0:07:21 Matt: Okay.

0:07:32 Matt: Actually, this interview started on a baseball field. This is Samuel Alito, and he's getting a very, very friendly interview from Bari Weiss of CBS News. This is going to be from chief legal sport correspondent, Jan Crawford, asking him nothing but softballs. Easy stuff, but he's still going to biff them.

0:07:35 Thomas: There you go.

0:07:46 Thomas: Because, you know, it's about time that this person got a fair shake, you know?

0:07:49 Matt: Yeah. Got a break. Yeah, absolutely.

0:07:51 Lydia: Yeah. How depressing too, that, like, he has to be handled with kid gloves like what what, a freaking baby.

0:07:51 Matt: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh,

0:07:57 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, he is the most fragile ego.

0:07:57 Lydia: Yeah.

0:07:58 Matt: Yeah, so delicate Yeah, oh, no, literally, she takes him on a tour of, like, his old high school and, like, they, they make a point of walking through the door where there's an oil portrait of him, like, next to the door, just the one door that has him

0:08:07 Thomas: I want to just watch this whole thing. Like, it's nine minutes. We can't do it, but I want to. I'll scrub through it.

0:08:09 Lydia: No well

0:08:08 Matt: Uh it's uh no it we can link to it. Uh, also, I want to point out that his tie the entire time is never cinched, and that really bothers me. Like, we all have those days, but you're on CBS News, like, this is your rare interviewer, allegedly, since your time one

0:08:18 Thomas: Huh.

0:08:22 Lydia: And you're supposed to be like like one of the most premier people in, like, the entire country, so what are you doing yeah is

0:08:28 Matt: Of our premium tie wearers, yes, like yeah

0:08:24 Thomas: Here's him out on the, yeah, and then they're out on the baseball field, he can't even tuck in his damn shirt. I

0:08:34 Lydia: It like, like, to try and just seem more relatable is, like, it's like a PR kind of thing, yeah.

0:08:35 Thomas: Don't know, I think it just sucks.

0:08:37 Matt: Definitely Here, he is on the baseball team, he's talking about how you got to support your team, you have to stay loyal to your team, it's, it's very subtle. I don't know what he's trying to say, uh, But you have to go through team no matter what, and, uh, basically, write any decisions they give you, I think, is no, he's already in a hot mic saying that, might as well say it in a cold one.

0:08:39 Thomas: Yeah, oh, yeah, sure, Yeah. Yeah, boy. That sure isn't what we want Supreme Court justices to do, is it? Isn't that, like, exactly the opposite? Yeah. Oh,

0:08:39 Lydia: Oh, Yeah. Yeah,

0:09:00 Matt: Uh, yeah. So here, here we go.

0:09:00 Lydia: Yeah,

0:09:01 Thomas: Boy. So you want to play some of this? What was it? I lost it. No. Four or something.

0:09:03 Matt: Yeah. So the particular moment here that I think you're going to enjoy the most is at 4.30 approximately, where he's being asked about Dobbs. He goes on and on about the leak. It's not worth elucidating about that.

0:09:11 Thomas: Okay.

0:09:11 Clip: Do you regret writing it? No, not

0:09:13 Matt: Here we go.

0:09:13 Clip: At all. Even though it's certainly had consequences for your personal life? No, it was a privilege to be able to write it, and I don't regret it, despite what it led to. I don't think I anticipated the particulars of what it led to. I did anticipate that there would be strong opposition. One thing Alito says Dobbs did not do, call into question Obergefell, the landmark ruling guaranteeing a right to same-sex marriage. He says that case is different because people have come to rely on it to organize their lives, unlike, he says, with Roe.

0:09:47 Thomas: Because we feel like it.

0:09:48 Matt: Wait for this. This is bad.

0:09:51 Clip: I did not think that there was any realistic prospect that it would be overruled because of the passage of time and the developments in the country since that point. People thought that Roe was settled law of the land, and obviously there were consequences when the court overturned Roe and Casey. After Obergefell, people of the same sex got married and entered into contracts, and so it was much more concrete. With his expansive views on presidential power,

0:10:07 Thomas: Yeah. Duh. Way older.

0:10:26 Matt: Let's break

0:10:20 Thomas: Yeah. Uh-huh. What? No one got an abortion after.

0:10:27 Matt: That down.

0:10:28 Clip: Alito has been spared the ire of President Trump. He's praised Alito.

0:10:29 Matt: He's saying essentially that there's a reliance. That's what he's saying, is that people now rely on Obergefell, where they certainly didn't. There was no guarantees made by Rowe, I guess. Not that any of that mattered to me, Samuel Alito.

0:10:38 Lydia: Yeah. Mm.

0:10:33 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, I just thought of this the other day, actually, before I even knowing about this, which is like the people who make these decisions for us, the decide everything we never even get. They never even have to answer a question ever. They don't have to answer. They go to Congress and there's questions about like the the budget and crap. Right. Or they're like, oh, do you need this? We need this money for something, you know, like there's a little bit. It. But there is not a single time politicians, at least even the president of the United States, theoretically, when he's running or when he's up for reelection, you're doing debates. There could be some amount of like questioning him, press conferences. No one ever gets, unless they do a softball interview on CBS News, they never have to answer for anything at all.

0:10:55 Lydia: Hmm. Mm hmm.

0:10:56 Matt: Yeah.

0:11:23 Matt: And that was my favorite part about living in London. I went to prime minister's question times a couple of times where you could actually go to parliament and watch Tony Blair get grilled. And it was amazing. Once a week, they just bring him in. It might've been more than a couple of times a month, but they bring him in. And in one question, somebody is asking about a rural post office that he hasn't backed, that he was supposed to back. And the next question, they're like, what are you doing in Afghanistan? What are we doing there? And I love it. They just grill him and they yell at him.

0:11:44 Thomas: Yeah. What are we doing? Yeah.

0:11:46 Lydia: Yeah.

0:11:47 Matt: That's what we should be doing every time. And we should get to grill him too for

0:11:49 Thomas: Yeah. Well, and it's, I think what bothers me in particular about it is everything, thing, but also, this is the Supreme fucking Court, the thing they're supposed to be good at is, like, well, arguments, law.

0:11:52 Matt: A treat.

0:11:59 Lydia: Right.

0:11:59 Thomas: You know, but, like, that's politicians, I get it, they're, they just want power and they whatever, like, they're gonna say whatever, ostensibly, Supreme Court justices and lawyers in general, the thing they're doing is supposed to be able to handle, you know, hard questions, cross-examination, the judge is good question you on and stuff. Like that's the whole deal, isn't it? But the highest ones in the land, no questions, no obligation. They could decide our whole lives and never answer a single question if they wanted, right?

0:12:17 Lydia: Yep.

0:12:28 Matt: You know, what's even almost worse is that there's no one to ask them questions because CBS News is now run by Bari Weiss. And I want to point out what Jen Crawford did here because you got to laugh. I mean, you did laugh when you heard her say it. She cuts away and they show a picture of the Supreme Court and a pride flag. And she sets you up for the idea that he's about to say something ridiculous. So she says it first and then she lets him say it because just to kind of break the ice, just to get it out there. Because what he's going to say is that that people didn't rely on Roe, but they're relying on Obergefell, so you don't have to worry about it, but Obergefell's safe. So yeah,

0:12:38 Thomas: Yeah.

0:12:43 Lydia: Yeah.

0:12:56 Lydia: Do you think part of that, though, is like trying to stop the slippery slope concerns and stuff that everybody have that like if Roe falls and Obergefell falls, then, you know, what's to stop loving the Virginia from being reversed to, you know, like.

0:13:01 Matt: It is. Yeah. Yeah.

0:12:57 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is, there's just no justification for it. Like it doesn't make any actual sense. It's just what they decided. Like, and by the way, that's only, I mean, Thomas for sure wants wants to undo that. I'm not sure, Matt, what do you think, did other, I mean, I know Roberts had a really, he wrote the dissent for Obergefell and so you'd think maybe, but I, for whatever reason, they, the justices have kind of accepted that the gay marriage is going to stand, and to a degree that they just did not with Roe, and I don't really know why, I'm not

0:13:10 Lydia: Right.

0:13:27 Lydia: Obergefell. Yeah.

0:13:41 Matt: I mean, the really cynical take is that Birchafell's better for men and nobody cares otherwise. I don't know. I mean, it's really like even men they don't like, it's still men. I don't know. That's my first read, but I really don't know.

0:13:47 Lydia: Hmm.

0:13:41 Thomas: Hmm yeah I guess the other if you wanted to be like slightly more charitable, in their mind, like, gay marriage isn't directly killing babies, and they might think, some of them actually think abortion is killing babies, maybe that's what it is, I don't know, it's just funny to be like, oh, you know, it's, there's no reliance and like Obergefell just happened, and you're like, well, it's been a lot of time, you mean, like, Roe was since the 70s, like, what are you talking about, but all right I

0:14:17 Matt: Because of

0:14:12 Lydia: Yeah. Is it also like just this idea like he kind of said it up in the interview where he was like, you know, people have entered into these contracts, right? Where like they can kind of more like academically wrap their mind around it where it's like, well, then we would be like forcibly undoing all these contracts that were legal at that point in time. And like, you know, contracts be tricky kind of thing. I don't know. Whereas like Roe wouldn't be that way.

0:14:37 Thomas: Think he would would also probably say, yeah, I think he would also say no one should be relying on getting an abortion. Like no one's planning to get an abortion. No, you know, like he, I think he would probably say that.

0:14:47 Lydia: Oh, right, right. Like you don't make steps in your future for,

0:14:49 Matt: Rome.

0:14:49 Thomas: Yeah. You're not like, I'm going to get pregnant because I'm going to get an abortion. It's not really how people mostly look at it. So, I mean, maybe that's the point he would make.

0:14:50 Lydia: Yeah. Right. Right. Oh.

0:14:51 Matt: Whereas now people have to decide what state they want to live in for what kind of healthcare they're going to get. I mean, that was not the case before as much.

0:15:00 Lydia: Yeah. And

0:15:01 Thomas: Yeah. And there are more abortions happening now than before that was overturned, so yeah.

0:15:06 Lydia: More worse outcomes than ever before.

0:15:07 Thomas: Yeah. What?

0:15:08 Lydia: Obviously, because that's exactly What happened before it was legal.

0:15:09 Thomas: An asshole. He's The ultimate douche for today for the uh, the amuse douche. Uh, all right, well,

0:15:16 Matt: We're never going to run out of them, but that's endless supply, infinite resource in America.

0:15:17 Lydia: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

0:15:16 Thomas: Yeah. We're not, yep. Um, all right, well, where should we go to next, man?

0:15:25 Matt: All right, well, let's talk about Douglas Murray.

0:15:29 Matt: It's a name I was familiar with because of his, his work, such as it is, on immigration. He's one of these guys, again, since we mentioned the Intellectual Dark Web, he reminds me of this guy, kind of a Sam Harris vibe. He's just asking questions. He's very chill, except when he's not. We'll watch a clip where he's not. And he gets really, really mad at you when you call him a white supremacist, or say that he's supporting white supremacy, or say that maybe perhaps he's even an ethno-nationalist, or even that he's Islamophobic, even though he is doing things that sound like all of those things. And he wrote an an entire couple of books that are definitely that. But he'll sue us if we say any of those things. So I'm just going to say that the things he's saying resemble those things.

0:16:04 Matt: He likes to sue people that talk about him. So yeah, quite a lot. So we're just going to stick to the facts here. And those are the facts as I understand them. Lydia, you got any more facts?

0:15:57 Lydia: Yep. Um,

0:16:07 Thomas: Really the

0:16:13 Lydia: Well, he publicly supportive of the wall, obviously, the Muslim ban, he made sure, yeah.

0:16:19 Thomas: Wall I thought you were supposed to be the intellectual guy. Like, really? The wall all the dumbest shit it does, it's there, yeah.

0:16:22 Matt: The 16th century solution?

0:16:20 Lydia: Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. He thought that was great. Right. He thought that was great. You can catch his work in The Spectator. He's an associate editor there. The Times, Daily Telegraph, really, really premier hierarchy or institutions of journalism, right? New York Post, National Review, Free Press, obviously, which we're going to be reading from a bit later, and Unheard. He's very close with Ayaan Hirsi Ali and other folks like like that, you know, he's seen as, I guess, an ally in the concern over Islam and how people have been affected in that way, to put it nicely.

0:16:56 Thomas: Well because I understandly married Nile Ferguson, right? Who I is the same person as Douglas Murray, and I confuse them all the time, so that makes sense.

0:17:01 Lydia: Correct. Yeah. Different. Yeah. Niall Ferguson is the historian. Douglas Murray is the journalist, right? Like they're different.

0:17:10 Matt: Oh, now you're going to get sued.

0:17:10 Thomas: Okay. They're the same person.

0:17:12 Lydia: They're, yeah, they're not. Douglas Murray is gay, so that's a big difference, but, oh, okay.

0:17:12 Thomas: I don't know. I just mean rhetorically, an argument, like they're saying the things they're saying, the same things all the time.

0:17:19 Matt: Yeah.

0:17:21 Lydia: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then he was the associate director for the Henry Jackson Society for about seven years. It's a conservative think tank. It really like changed when his group, the Center for Social Cohesion, merged with the Henry Jackson Society. These are all like UK centered things.

0:17:39 Thomas: Who's Henry Jackson? Some racist.

0:17:41 Matt: Scoop Jackson from Washington State, Yeah, classic senator. Where's your rep? Either way, he's in Congress.

0:17:43 Thomas: Scoop Jackson. Oh, okay.

0:17:48 Matt: But yeah, I mean, and like the Center for Social Cohesion, I just want to point that name out for a minute, not to let that go. It's, yeah, it's up there with, because they like these kind of bland names, but if you really listen to that one, it's saying something. I also discovered, and another time we might look at this, but the White Papers Policy Institute, and white papers, you know, those are boring. Nobody wants to read a white paper.

0:17:47 Lydia: Yeah, I know. I don't like that.

0:17:53 Thomas: Yeah. That sounds like it's from 1984.

0:18:02 Lydia: Mm hmm.

0:18:10 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:18:09 Lydia: I think. Yeah, that sounds familiar. We might have touched on that at some point, but I'm not I'm not totally positive.

0:18:15 Matt: But the emphasis is on white. They're a strict ethno-nationalist organization. I thought it was kind of clever.

0:18:18 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:18:18 Thomas: Yeah. It's like the Christmas. What's the thing? And yeah.

0:18:22 Matt: Yeah, the Christmas adventure is clever, whatever. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, yeah. All right, yeah, please carry on.

0:18:25 Lydia: Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah.

0:18:28 Thomas: Man, that was a movie. That was a movie. Oh, we have to watch to watch them. Oh, oh, carry on.

0:18:31 Lydia: Well, just very quickly, just very quickly, after the merger, some folks that were affiliated with Henry Jackson Society actually left because they were not happy. Douglas Murray's Center for Social Cohesion with the Henry Jackson Society right before he became.

0:18:40 Thomas: The merger of what with what? I missed it. Sorry. Oh, they couldn't cohere.

0:18:48 Lydia: And yeah, yeah.

0:18:49 Thomas: You'd think his expertise from the center of cohesion, you know, they'd find a way to be able to make it work.

0:18:55 Lydia: So like the merger was opposed by some members and then Douglas Murray specifically was opposed by some members. So some folks left. And one person in particular, Marco Attila Hoare, Hoare left Henry Jackson Society in 2012 because of Murray's, quote, anti-Muslim and anti-immigration views. I'm not saying that. That was somebody else. Douglas Murray, if you're watching, I don't want to get sued. And yeah, true, true.

0:19:16 Thomas: You can say it. It's fine. He's not. I wish we were big time enough to get sued by Douglas Murray. It's not happening.

0:19:24 Lydia: But the group, you know, has been thought to to be pretty hawkish, looking at like regime changes and warmongering in the Middle East to, you know, like the Arabia and that conspiracy theory, and also hyping up U.S. homeland terror in quotes. So that was talked about in The Guardian that all the patrons that really support the society primarily are like the top of the right-wing warmongers, like hawkish folks and stuff. So there's thoughts about that.

0:19:39 Thomas: Yeah.

0:19:59 Thomas: Yeah. How does he feel about Iran?

0:20:00 Matt: Oh, yeah, no, he was on the war drum a long time ago. He was all about going to war with Iran before. He calls himself a neoconservative, which is pretty rare anymore. And he's also gay and loves Israel, like loves Israel. So he's not very popular with MAGA right now.

0:20:05 Lydia: Oh, he gets awards from them. He gets awards from Israel, like from their government because of how much of an ally he has been.

0:20:17 Matt: He doesn't have that much of a constituency with Maga right now, but certainly he's saying the stuff they want to hear about immigration. Let's watch a little clip of him in Doha. He's actually making a weird appearance in Qatar.

0:20:20 Thomas: Jeez.

0:20:32 Thomas: Fine. Line.

0:20:34 Matt: He's going to do some yelling at a very nice woman who's just trying to ask him some questions.

0:20:38 Clip: You think you're going to persuade a Brit that we should stop drinking alcohol because of people arriving in our country. I mean, that's not going to happen. But these things are all a bit of give and take. But you can suggest that you bring your own traditions that don't quite fit with theirs. Well, yeah, there are, as I said, and before we got all confrontational, which you did from the get-go, I said what the problem is here is that these things are all rubbing against each other. And in that situation, you have to work out what things you're willing to give up, which things you're willing to compromise on, and which ones you're not. You're not going to persuade the Brits to massively change their culture. But let me just make the point, every single society has certain aspects of it it doesn't want to give up. This one will in

0:20:42 Matt: That's not what she said.

0:20:56 Matt: She wasn't.

0:21:15 Clip: Qatar, this one will, everyone does.

0:21:15 Thomas: That sounds so reasonable. I better be a racist

0:21:17 Clip: So please don't try to make this a kind of bigoted European, but I think that would be a very, very dishonest way to, that would be a very dishonest way to represent this today. Which of your values are you most afraid to lose? Which ones are most threatened by the rival of refugees?

0:21:17 Thomas: Then.

0:21:20 Matt: Here we go.

0:21:32 Clip: Freedom of speech. It's the first one.

0:21:29 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, are they taking away your frequency?

0:21:34 Clip: Oh, you think that's not a problem? I mean... You think that's not a problem? But you think... No, no, no. Let me pick up on that. Let me pick up on that. It's very easy to snigger. It's very easy to snigger about this until you've had friends shot in a newspaper office. It's very easy to laugh about that until it's happened to people you know.

0:21:50 Matt: Hold up. We've got to pause for a second.

0:21:53 Clip: Is there an

0:21:53 Lydia: Yeah.

0:21:51 Thomas: Yeah. Charlie Hebdo or something? What the hell is he?

0:21:54 Matt: He's talking about Charlie Hebdo. He didn't have any friends there. He talks about Charlie Hebdo a lot. And again, Charlie Hebdo was an awful, awful thing.

0:21:56 Thomas: No, I doubt it. Yeah.

0:22:00 Matt: It was 2015. Obviously, it was a long time ago. And that was not in the UK.

0:21:55 Lydia: Yeah. No, no.

0:22:04 Matt: There have been many more white nationalist terrorist incidents in the UK at this point, including the shooting of Joe Cox, because of the kind of stuff he's saying here about the EU. So that's the best you can come up with, is your free stage is under attack because some people got shot in France in 2015.

0:22:04 Thomas: It was in France. Yeah. Yeah. This is going to be a deep pull, and this is for about two and a half people, maybe. But I am just realizing it's possible that Ben Mendelsohn might have used him to model his character on from Rogue One and from the uh the uh the the good, the good Star Wars, and or he's mainly in season two, but he's the, you know, the bad guy in Rogue One, he sounds exactly like him, and I, it could be because Ben Mendelsohn is Australian and then Australian doing a British accent, but it, I swear to God, they sound exactly alike, it would be really funny if he modeled it's like, it kind of makes sense, like it's, you know, the the Empire and Star Wars. They're always the British guys that are this exact kind of racist.

0:22:36 Matt: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure.

0:22:59 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:23:00 Thomas: Like there might be something there, you know, just, okay.

0:23:02 Matt: Yeah, no, it's very posh. And honestly, I hate how much I'm into it. I'm really into it. I can't help it. I'm just wired that way.

0:23:07 Thomas: Huh? Into the accent?

0:23:11 Matt: Yeah, and him. It's just like, if you were talking about, I don't know, calculus or ant farms or something, I'd probably be a lot more interested. But anything else, I don't know. I don't know where I got that. But no, literally, I'd rather he was talking about calculus because then I could just be attracted to him. But I don't know.

0:23:12 Thomas: Yeah. Well, okay. Not calculus, Matt. Like you don't like, well, I know, but he could

0:23:27 Matt: He's just being really ugly right now. He's a good looking guy.

0:23:26 Lydia: You wouldn't

0:23:29 Thomas: Talk about anything and say he was talking about calculus and that would work for you right because

0:23:32 Matt: Yeah, that's true.

0:23:34 Lydia: Know. Yeah.

0:23:34 Matt: Just yell out some letters and all it's probably calculus, it's fine.

0:23:33 Thomas: Yeah sure Variables.

0:23:38 Matt: That's what calculus is.

0:23:39 Lydia: Letters. Yeah.

0:23:39 Matt: Right, it's letters. I don't know, it's fine.

0:23:39 Thomas: You know. Yeah, there's derivatives and

0:23:41 Matt: Yeah. X's and y's.

0:23:41 Lydia: Oh,

0:23:42 Thomas: Uh, okay, we're playing more of this or

0:23:43 Matt: Uh, just a little more, you get the idea, we just want to be sure we heard his voice and

0:23:44 Thomas: Okay. Yeah.

0:23:45 Clip: Exaggeration, Douglas, do you think, in the West, this fear of Islam or anything that looks so different to us? No, I mean, the society I'm from is one of the most pluralistic and diverse societies on earth. You couldn't get a larger range of people of different backgrounds and ethnicities and languages than you have in Britain. So it's why I once again, if I may, push back against this thing you are pushing, which is that these are sort of uniquely bigoted, unwelcoming societies. Not at all. The evidence on this part of the stage would suggest that Britain is not, for instance.

0:23:58 Matt: I hate it, my

0:24:16 Clip: I'm giving you the chance to tell us, from your perspective, what you find threatening or not about Britain. Let me answer that by broadening, if I may. My suggestion would be, if we're to arrive at any kind of common understanding on this, is that we agree that, for instance, where there are people who pretend that everyone who arrives as a terrorist is barking mad. We can agree with that, but don't laugh at people with serious concerns about serious security concerns either. Because, you know,

0:24:15 Matt: Muslim friends so

0:24:17 Thomas: Yeah. Being mad yeah but that's you though, you say half of them are terrorists. Like all of them are

0:24:50 Clip: We had this in 2015 when certain officials in Europe said the likelihood that anyone coming on the boats among the 1.5 million people who arrived in Germany are going to be violent in any way is total, you know, xenophobic fantasy. And everyone laughed until people started letting off bombs, until, like, in Amsbach in Germany, they just had a suicide bombing outside a wine bar. And it just stopped being quite so funny.

0:24:50 Thomas: Terrorists.

0:25:05 Thomas: They all died.

0:25:12 Matt: That's an interesting example in Ansbach.

0:25:14 Clip: So all I'm saying is...

0:25:14 Thomas: Okay. Sure.

0:25:14 Matt: We This is more than enough of him as entranced as I am, uh, but the Ansbach about suicide bombing was actually somebody who was too mentally ill to deport, he was actually that they so like that's not a good example, um, so if you're looking for religious extremism

0:25:17 Thomas: Sure. Yeah. Okay.

0:25:25 Lydia: Wow. Right. Well. I guess I mean, yeah, I mean, I guess he would say that that person just should have never come over and like the mental illness can be somebody else's problem kind of thing is like that sort of what he's thinking

0:25:40 Matt: Right. But he's blaming it on Islam, he's pretty directly saying that it's Islam. Right, and it's just it's mental illness, um, it's like, yeah, so I, I just wanted to make sure we heard his voice because we're going to read his words now, and you want to hear that posh voice, of course, is purring at you.

0:25:42 Lydia: Oh Okay. I see I see, yeah.

0:25:52 Thomas: Yeah. It is a little more posh than Ben Mendelsohn's accent, but the, but the voice, the mouth and the voice, it's like exactly the same.

0:25:58 Matt: The vibe.

0:25:59 Thomas: There's something about it. Yeah. But, uh, okay. Yeah, no, that's, we get it. We got the racism and the posh. What would you want to, oh, we have an article. That's right. We have a, uh, oh

0:25:59 Matt: The vibe is there. Yeah, for sure.

0:26:04 Lydia: Yep.

0:26:08 Matt: Yes. I think we should take a break and then come back to it.

0:26:09 Lydia: Yeah.

0:26:10 Thomas: Sure. Yeah. So we'll take a break and And then we'll talk about how the West lost its will to reverse mass migration. Sure. I don't know if this, this isn't, this wasn't written in like 2015. This is a current. So that's weird. All right. Let's thank our second batch. Oh, patrons. Thank you too. Probably a real person. Nick Fish, who sucks more Ann Coulter or Riley Gaines?

0:26:19 Lydia: Yeah. Oh,

0:26:37 Thomas: Again, I don't, Matt, did you make this point the other day? Like we don't hear from Ann Coulter, do we? I don't, yeah,

0:26:42 Matt: Yeah, we did. We were just talking about that last week. And Riley Gaines is out there a little too much. So I think she's doing more damage right now.

0:26:45 Thomas: I can't think of, yeah, yeah,

0:26:47 Lydia: But she also but but but then she just lost her lawsuit. So, yeah.

0:26:51 Thomas: And Ann Coulter's really bad, it really goes, it's that classic split, evil versus, like, the effect they're having, and the effect they're having now versus cumulative, you know, yeah, you really gotta specify, you know, but I would say if it's, like, right now, who's doing more evil, maybe Riley Gaines, just because I haven't heard heard from Ann Coulter in 10 years.

0:26:57 Lydia: Yeah. That's a tough, tough, tough question. Mm hmm.

0:26:58 Matt: Yeah. And their popularity in this moment. Yeah. By numbers. Yeah.

0:27:11 Thomas: Yeah. A Negative Phenomenon. Lawtistic AuDHDer. Yeah.

0:27:12 Lydia: Yeah. Oh, nice. Nice.

0:27:16 Matt: Very good.

0:27:16 Thomas: You gotta fight for your right to ex parte. J-Sank. VML emphatically stating Patreon sucks. And Matt, please don't make us read Alito's book.

0:27:26 Matt: I promise. I thought about it. I thought about it, but I love you too much. I'm not going to do it. Sorry.

0:27:30 Thomas: A Plethora of El Jefes of El Jefes. Today's episode is brought to you by the letter something. David Souther, Thomas Freeman, Cajunkilla. By the way, David Souther was over on Serious Inquiries Only if you want to hear him talking about AI and the that math problem that it may be solved or didn't or whatever that was You'll have to find out. Listen, Thomas, Freeman, Cajunkilla, Cavalry, Fraud, Fishy, Hates Everything, Chris Simpson, How Do I Get Into The Top Third, you're on your way, Anonymous, Akilah, and check out GalenaComic.com for a cool web comic. Alright, thanks patrons, we'll take a break and then we'll read some racism. Right, Matt, let's talk about how the West lost its will to reverse mass migration. Yep. Mm-hmm.

0:27:31 Matt: You're welcome.

0:27:44 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:13 Matt: This is it. This is the intellectual, the closest thing you're going to see to an intellectual argument for mass deportation, so I thought it was worth taking some time on because it's stupid. It's very stupid. And it's politically, legally, and morally incorrect in every way. And when I say politically incorrect, I don't just mean I don't like it. I mean nobody wants this. It's just not going to work.

0:28:21 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:30 Lydia: Yeah. I have, I have an account with the free press just because of work. I have to like read the articles and stuff. And this one popped up in my email. I sent it to Matt immediately. I was like, oh, check this out.

0:28:31 Thomas: Brutal. Sure.

0:28:32 Matt: That's what he's mad about. Yes. And I was like, I don't have to even read this. I can read the rest of it. We're going to read it on the air. And

0:28:44 Thomas: You read Free Press for the articles. I get it.

0:28:45 Matt: That's right. All right. And also, this is interesting. I don't read the free press. Maybe be you can say this is normal, but they put a little introduction here from their politics editor, who is a black man with a very foreign sounding name. And I was just wondering if that was a coincidence that he's co-signing.

0:29:02 Thomas: They love to find people who will be the best vessels for their racism.

0:29:05 Lydia: Tokens. Yeah, they look for tokens. Definitely.

0:29:07 Matt: Yeah.

0:29:06 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Do we need, are we reading that or

0:29:10 Lydia: Yeah. Do you want us to read that?

0:29:11 Matt: I think it's worth reading his

0:29:11 Lydia: OK, sure.

0:29:12 Matt: Intro actually. Yeah.

0:29:13 Lydia: The results of the midterm elections will send a signal to Washington. Stick to the course set by President Donald Trump or set a new direction. So far, the polls show moderate voters revolting against the White House's direction on the Iran Iran war, the economy, and immigration. If Democrats win big, Trump could lose support for his agenda. Yet sometimes an urgent issue demands perseverance, even when the political heat is on. That's what Douglas Murray argues about the need. Oh, go ahead, Matt.

0:29:11 Thomas: Okay

0:29:36 Matt: So I was going to say, I think what he's saying here is that Donald Trump should go ape in the last two years when he's a lame duck and nobody cares. He should just go absolutely hog.

0:29:45 Thomas: Yeah, they know what's gonna happen, which is a bloodbath in the midterms most likely, and they're like, but you know, you don't, you know, sometimes you gotta look at the face of everybody hating what you're doing and say, I'm gonna do it anyway. Who

0:29:50 Matt: Right. Yeah. I got the power.

0:29:57 Lydia: Weren't the numbers so bad that like Megyn Kelly pulled it up on her show recently and just started laughing because they're so incredibly embarrassing? Yeah.

0:30:04 Matt: Love it. Love to hear it.

0:30:05 Thomas: Knows. I'm not counting I'm not counting my chickens until they're in the Senate.

0:30:06 Lydia: Go out and vote, everybody. Yeah, I know. I

0:30:09 Thomas: What

0:30:09 Lydia: Know. That's what Douglas Murray argues about the need to reverse the trend of illegal immigration, which has transformed Western countries over the past decade. Douglas has warned about mass migration for more than a decade, beginning long before the issue came to dominate our politics. Today, he argues that politicians wise enough.

0:30:26 Thomas: Are you talking sorry, what, Matt, can we call bullshit on on that? 10 the past decade, long before it came to dominate our politics? Like, no, I mean, it's been a huge thing for longer than that, right, right.

0:30:37 Lydia: Yeah.

0:30:34 Matt: Yeah. It's been a big driver. And it's interesting to watch just in my study of immigration policy when I teach this, I talk about this a lot, that it wasn't really a national issue until really the early 80s and really the 90s. It became the lightning rod it is today. But it became a lightning rod in the 90s for sure. And and it began to dominate local elections.

0:30:53 Thomas: But to say a decade ago is 2016, a decade ago is, we were electing Trump the first time a month from now a decade ago.

0:30:56 Matt: Yeah. Yeah. That's Donald Trump.

0:31:02 Thomas: Everybody

0:30:55 Lydia: Yeah. Oh, Oh, my

0:31:03 Matt: And that's when he invented xenophobia. That was the first time that we had it. So

0:31:03 Lydia: God.

0:31:03 Thomas: Yeah, first time anyone's ever. Now, admittedly, he brought it more to the forefront. Sure. But to say the past decade long before the issue came to dominate our politics. OK, sure.

0:31:06 Matt: Yeah. Oh yeah. Like the Republicans had not seen him for a while. Yeah. Yeah.

0:31:10 Lydia: Yeah. Maybe he's having the problem where like none of us can believe that the 80s were 40 years ago, you know, if I'm going to be fair.

0:31:16 Matt: Sure. The courage.

0:31:19 Thomas: That's true. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Never mind. I withdraw. Yeah, it is. You do have to do the math every time. Now we're like, Jesus, 10 years ago was that. All right. I

0:31:26 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Today, he argues that politicians wise enough to see the problem must take the next step and summon the courage to reverse it. About to. Can a country allow mass lawbreaking and retain its integrity. For almost any crime you can think of, the answer is no. No country would allow people to walk into another person's house or let them drive on the wrong side of the road.

0:31:42 Thomas: No. Or say Congress, you know, on January 6th, and, you know.

0:31:51 Lydia: Uh-huh, yeah. Yet many politicians behave as if they have no choice when it comes to mass illegal immigration. It appears that even some Republicans are losing their will to deport illegal migrants and reverse the law-breaking trend.

0:31:57 Thomas: Okay,

0:32:04 Matt: So I'm just going to start with one of the main fallacies in this piece, which is a very common fallacy, of course, on the right, which is that it is a crime to be here, which it is not. And he's equating walking into someone's house, which is an extremely serious felony, with walking into the United States, which is a misdemeanor. Even crossing the border is a misdemeanor, but it's hardly overcharged. Being here is not a crime. And that is something he's going to keep saying. He's going to keep equating them with the worst kinds of criminals. And that's normal, but I just want to point out that's kind of his thesis. So just off the bat, bad start.

0:32:32 Thomas: So right away, the whole thing sucks. You need to restart your essay.

0:32:34 Matt: Yeah. We've got a fallacy right in the middle of it. Yep.

0:32:36 Thomas: Yeah, okay.

0:32:37 Lydia: Their hesitation is understandable since since the public has little stomach for the reality of deportations, and the tactics of immigration and customs enforcement have turned off many would-be supporters. A Gallup poll in June found that the share of Americans who support deportations has fallen to 39% from a recent high of 47% in 2024, while the share who opposed them has risen from from 51% to 58%.

0:33:00 Thomas: That's it. Jesus.

0:33:01 Lydia: On, oh yeah, go ahead.

0:33:03 Thomas: Oh,

0:33:01 Matt: Let's pull up that poll because he's not being truthful, of course, about what the question was. He's also not being truthful about what the solution that is proposed here that people love. And consistently, these numbers are consistent. For the entire time that I've been looking at immigration policy, if we're going on 20 years, it's pretty much been the same polling about the thing we'll talk about further down.

0:33:03 Thomas: Okay.

0:33:22 Matt: So if you get

0:33:22 Thomas: So this says American support for immigration down, still strong. Okay.

0:33:26 Matt: Under the system charts here, we can keep going. Obviously, Consistently, Americans say it's a good thing. That's pretty normal.

0:33:31 Lydia: Mm-hmm.

0:33:28 Thomas: Oh, okay. Like this one? Oh, okay. Do you think immigration is a good thing? And then we got 73 good thing, 21 bad thing. Oh, and this is current, yeah, okay, uh, oh yeah, okay, this is interesting. Views on effects in the U.S. Yeah, you see Republicans kind of going down, boy, really went up between 24 and 25, isn't that odd, huh? Is interesting, okay, sure

0:33:38 Matt: That's pretty consistent. Further down for the country today, Republicans.

0:33:44 Lydia: Yeah. Huh.

0:33:55 Lydia: Interesting. Mm-hmm.

0:33:56 Matt: And then a little further, just so we have the perceived effects of the economy. That's all pretty predictable, too. It's all pretty good. The path to success, this is the one that consistently you get when you ask people. So we start with DACA, right? And 50% off the bat just favor giving status to people that came here as children, 42% to giving people the chance if they meet requirements over time.

0:33:59 Thomas: Uh okay all right

0:34:19 Matt: And then if you look at strongly, exactly, right? Off the bat, exactly.

0:34:21 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:34:16 Thomas: And that that's 50 strongly favor and then another 31 favor so that's an 81 issue

0:34:23 Lydia: Favor. So it's really 81.

0:34:26 Matt: And that's normal. If you ask most Americans throughout the last couple of decades and throughout the time that I've been studying this. It's historically over 70% consistently.

0:34:27 Thomas: Yeah yeah They just, we've talked about it, Matt, but, you know, it's been the quest of this show, it's like the main one of the biggest problems, in addition to the racism, xenophobia, is just nobody understands what's actually currently happening. Like, they don't, everyone's like, well, I want them to do it the right way. And that's like, there is no right way. That doesn't exist.

0:34:50 Lydia: Mm-hmm.

0:34:51 Thomas: It's impossible. Can't be done. You know, and if you ask them how long it takes to do it the right way, what would they say, Matt? I don't know, a couple of years, you know, like, yeah, fill out some forms.

0:34:51 Lydia: Mm-hmm.

0:34:51 Matt: And this question is, yeah, just fill out some forms, it's fine. You probably don't even know the lawyer, I would imagine.

0:35:02 Thomas: You can never do it. It never, it takes thousands of years.

0:35:05 Lydia: Yeah.

0:35:05 Matt: But look at the question at the bottom because that's the one he's citing.

0:35:08 Thomas: Okay. Deporting all immigrants who are living in the U.S. illegally back into their their home country.

0:35:14 Matt: The question is all. He doesn't say that in the piece.

0:35:17 Lydia: Mm-hmm.

0:35:17 Matt: He says supporting deportations. And even that though, and he's getting this 57% here, are, I guess, 58%.

0:35:17 Thomas: All. Oh, right. Well, yeah, let's finish saying what it is. So for deporting all immigrants, that's 21 strongly favor, 18 favor. So it would give you 39, right? And then everybody else. So it's a minority position. I wish it was more of a minority position. And so you're saying he said, so what was the thing that he said?

0:35:25 Matt: Yeah.

0:35:35 Lydia: Right.

0:35:42 Thomas: Oh,

0:35:41 Matt: Yeah. So,

0:35:42 Lydia: The number is is correct. The way that he's framing it is incorrect.

0:35:42 Matt: Right. Presenting it.

0:35:45 Thomas: He said, I see. So Gallup poll in in June found that the share of Americans who support deportations. Yeah, no, that's a very big, that's a very different thing. Yeah. But why does he say that? Cause it would that, does that make his point better? Is he trying? Cause like, I'm sure if you just said, do you support any deportations? You'd get a way higher number, right?

0:35:50 Matt: Right.

0:36:02 Matt: Well, yeah, I think he's trying to soft pedal what he's actually pushing here, which is to try to do mass deportation to everybody. He's trying to say we should do that, but he doesn't really tell you what it is. He doesn't want to talk about the consequences of what it's going to look like. And what he's saying right here is that we got a taste of it this year, right? We got a taste of it. It killed two US citizens and lots of other people. We had just another round of ICE shootings this week. And, And, you know, it's not the tactics of ICE, it's ICE itself.

This is what they are, and this is what they are going to do, inevitably, if you unleash them and let them do what they're doing. And they still haven't been fully unleashed. If you get to the point that he wants, that he's talking about, of mass deportation, it's going to be a very different country. And I think people are starting to see that. And, Like, I was saying that there's a poll of rural voters, people that live out way outside the cities that are starting to see it now and starting to understand that this is not what they want. It was like, you know, a third at this point strongly oppose it. That's a lot, lot.

0:36:10 Thomas: Oh yeah.

0:36:40 Lydia: Interesting.

0:36:52 Lydia: On cue, Republican politicians are distancing themselves from the policy, going well beyond condemnations of the worst ICE excesses. Representative Maria Elvira Salazar became the face of this shift last week when she released an ad excoriating the president for detaining illegal migrants who, quote, had no criminal record, meaning those whose only crime was to cross the border in the first place. Like,

0:37:13 Matt: That's not what she said. But we talked about her a couple weeks ago and about her very strategic choice to come out against Trump just before her election. But after having seen Alligator Alcatraz, right, right.

0:37:25 Thomas: Oh, come out quote unquote against Trump. Wasn't it the softest shit?

0:37:28 Matt: Yeah. Mr. President, you have to do my plan instead. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. But I mean, she'd already seen the worst of it. She'd been personally to Alligator Alcatraz and she'd said it was fine. And then coming up in elections, elections, she's deciding that maybe Trump has gone too far.

0:37:29 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:37:42 Thomas: You know, I was thinking back to some of the alligators I I saw. And actually that may, maybe wasn't great. How do you go from thinking it's fine to not whatever?

0:37:51 Matt: Yeah.

0:37:51 Lydia: Oh, I forgot what alligators were. I didn't remember that's what those animals were. I thought they were cute. It is a fact that reversing illegal migration is a logistically difficult and often unsightly business.

0:37:52 Thomas: Yeah. I just remembered. I have some morals. Yeah.

0:38:04 Matt: Unsightly.

0:38:05 Lydia: Ten years ago, when I was researching my book, The Strange Death of Europe, Immigration, Identity, Islam, I spoke with politicians across the Western world about the problem, which was already roiling global politics and seemed certain to get worse. One thing struck me. No matter how, quote, right-wing, quote, far-right, or, quote, populist the politicians I spoke to were, almost none had thought much about how to actually reverse mass migration.

0:38:04 Thomas: Fuck off Nazi shit.

0:38:05 Matt: None of them were Nazi enough for me. Yeah. Like he's, that's what he's saying.

0:38:32 Thomas: It's almost like they, they like having the issue to demagogue on, but don't actually want to solve it or care about solving or understand what it would take to solve. And again, quote unquote, solve it in their minds.

0:38:38 Lydia: Right. Right.

0:38:37 Matt: Right. Well, and they know it would be extremely unpopular to solve it in the way he's talking about. And he's going to make that point.

0:38:45 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:38:46 Lydia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Indeed, I remember one particular meeting with a European politician who was campaigning on a promise to return illegal migrants to their countries of origin. This would involve deporting more than one million people. Quote, how are you going to do it? I asked. Since there was little policy forthcoming, I sketched out how I saw it happening. On day one of...

0:39:08 Matt: Told him about my fantasies.

0:39:09 Thomas: Yeah. Jesus. What is that going to, how, how you, I want, tell us, does he tell us?

0:39:10 Lydia: Yeah, that's very, very kinky.

0:39:14 Matt: Some fanfic here. No, no, he's doing it right now.

0:39:17 Thomas: Okay.

0:39:17 Lydia: On day one of the new policy, federal agents would have to put illegal migrants on buses and start taking them down the country to the ports of origin. By day two, the media would have swarmed all such buses.

0:39:27 Thomas: Sorry. What, what is that? That's your specific, this is like a kid saying like, here's how my jet pack would work. Step one, the bottom would have fire things that come out and that, and yeah, well, I'll put you right. Step one, I push the button. Step two, fire goes goes out the back of it step three I fly It's awesome.

0:39:32 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. I fly. Mm-hmm.

0:39:35 Matt: I pushed the a button. Yeah. I invented

0:39:43 Thomas: That's not a plan.

0:39:44 Matt: A jetpack.

0:39:44 Thomas: What do you mean federal agents would have to put illegal migrants on buses? What does that? You would think about all the specifics of that, which ones? How, how do you find them? How are you doing that with force or how many? How many is that going to be? Yeah.

0:39:45 Matt: That's right. He invented that. He just came up with that idea. Yes.

0:39:57 Lydia: Just driving around, knocking on every door. Yeah.

0:40:01 Thomas: Like, like, right, man, I mean, that's all this just, yeah.

0:40:02 Matt: Are we seeing a judge first? Are we going to talk to anybody first? Are we just going to put them on buses, take them to ports?

0:40:06 Lydia: Doesn't seem like it.

0:40:07 Thomas: And like, they thought Trump did, the people in Trump too, did have this kind of planning. It's just impossible. You know, they did have the level of planning that he's talking about. Let's just get them all out of here. Yeah. Okay, cool. How did that go? Like you, and, and by, by the second month you're deporting, you know, moms who have done nothing wrong because you can't find the quote unquote criminals you thought you had.

0:40:28 Lydia: Yeah.

0:40:14 Matt: Yeah. Yeah. He ran out of gang members. No. And we're talking like the expense, even with the massive amount of money that ICE has been given, it's still, there's an estimate about 88,000 per if you, you know, there's like average basically. And that's a lot of money.

0:40:31 Thomas: Yeah. Oh

0:40:40 Lydia: Wow.

0:40:40 Thomas: My God. Yeah. You got, to keep on, hun. Sorry, I stopped. This is psychotic. This is amazing.

0:40:42 Lydia: Yep. Yep. At least one photo would emerge of a person, perhaps even a family, a woman, a child, crying as they were put on the bus. By day three, there would be protesters, and by day four, the political pressure would prompt almost any self-interested government to give up the plan. There is a moral to this story. In order to follow through, a leader must first earn an electoral mandate to carry out the deportations, devote extensive resources and planning, and prepare to take the heat. Yeah.

0:40:50 Matt: Yes? Yeah.

0:40:51 Thomas: Yeah, man. No, by day one, there would be protesters.

0:41:12 Thomas: That's what Trump has done. That's exactly what Trump has... Yeah.

0:41:14 Matt: This is the jetpack. This is the jetpack. You have to win a whole bunch of votes and you've just said nobody wants this. You've just told us that. So what's your plan?

0:41:16 Thomas: Yeah. Now, here's what they're doing wrong. They didn't put the magic juice in the jetpack. What they need to do is the right combination of magic juice and gas, and then and the jet pack will work.

0:41:26 Matt: That's right.

0:41:27 Lydia: Yeah.

0:41:35 Thomas: Oh boy.

0:42:01 Lydia: Trump returned to office.

0:42:03 Matt: This is a really interesting use of this anecdote. I looked this up. This is in Walworth in 2015 in the UK. And they were coming to get the employee, not the employer. I don't know. Maybe it was during a bunch of... Because they never actually go after the employers. That's just never a thing in any country. But this was a massive protest because they were coming for a regular worker. And he's making it sound like it's because they're trying to crack down on employees. I just thought it was employers. I thought it was an interesting detail.

0:42:27 Lydia: In light of this resistance, many of Trump's allies around the world have refrained from adopting his approach to deportation. When Nigel Farage, Party, was asked whether he approved of the removal of illegal immigrants from Britain, he dismissed the idea. Only once part of his voter base rebelled did Farage reverse that position. After all, what is the point of voting for a party like Reform, which positions itself as a bulwark against mass immigration and globalization, if it is not going to do what other parties have shrunk from doing?

0:42:56 Thomas: Okay. You're not understanding the key thing here. This is a lie. They campaign, when you campaign on a lie and then you're like, why aren't they doing the thing they lied about? It's because it was a lie and it's not a thing that anyone actually wants. Right? I mean, like you campaign on this thing and this plan, how you got to get everybody out. When you say that, you're lying about how it's going to go, who it is, how many people. And then when you go to try to do it, that's when it's revealed that the thing you were saying was fake. And then everyone's mad that so Douglas Murray's over here being like, nah, don't listen to that. Just keep doing the thing.

0:43:32 Lydia: Just do it.

0:43:32 Matt: Yeah. And like Nigel Farage, UKIP, they want power. They barely have any. They still don't really have any. And of course, they're going to say this stuff.

0:43:33 Lydia: Just do it. Yeah, You got a fear monger. Yet the right-leaning politicians who treat deportations as an impossibility are making an error similar to that of their left-leaning and moderate peers who left the borders open in the first place. The Joe Biden administration repeatedly said it had done all it could to seal the Mexican border, and in four years, it allowed about 8 million people to enter the U.S. illegally. It claimed that slowing things any further would require a change in asylum law and blamed Republicans for not striking a legislative deal.

0:44:09 Matt: Yeah. Citation needed on 8 million. Obviously, we've talked about this before, but I think he's talking like CBP he's talking about CBP encounters. I think he's talking about the number of people that they encountered and a lot of them of the

0:44:14 Lydia: Right.

0:44:09 Thomas: Yeah. Eight million, eight million. Yeah. Isn't the total estimate of how many people are here illegally? Like just the biggest estimate isn't like 20 million or something.

0:44:26 Matt: Total. But yeah, if you're talking about during the Biden administration, maybe 3 million.

0:44:27 Thomas: No, that's what I'm saying. If the total is that many over the course of however many decades, the idea that Biden in like a year, let an eight million or whatever, yeah, he said four years, okay, fine, break

0:44:31 Lydia: Of decades. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

0:44:29 Matt: Yeah. Right. Yes. Right. Yeah. Right. All time record. Yeah. And also, a lot of them did not enter illegally. And he doesn't, of course, want to get into that kind of nuance, but they were allowed in legally to seek asylum.

0:44:44 Lydia: Right, right. But it turns out that border policy can be tightened from the White House. The mass flow of people can be stopped. The Trump administration has shown that if there is the will to close the borders and enforce the law, right.

0:44:59 Thomas: Every single No, enforce the law if there's a will to break every single fucking law and be evil, then you and still it isn't quote-unquote being done. I mean, people are still gonna get through here and there, but like, yeah, it's it's the idea that that's enforcing the law. We covered this before, Matt. I remember you telling me like, like, it's such a bullshit thing to blame Biden. I mean, Biden bent from the right's point of view, like to blame Biden for an open border. He bent over backwards. He was way further to the right on the border than anyone here would be comfortable with. And he stopped because the law literally, right, man, if I'm remembering this right, he got to a point where it's like, well, this is the law. I can't really do anything about that.

0:45:40 Matt: They just And, you know, again, compared to Trump, he was looking pretty good. But yeah, no, I agree, of course. But and

0:45:43 Thomas: Of course, yeah. Yeah. But then the point was he went to the furthest extent to the law, essentially the law stopped him. And then he's like, well, then change the law.

0:45:46 Matt: Yes. Yeah, that's right. That's it.

0:45:52 Thomas: And this guy's like this, this fucking guy said like, Oh, change the law. You know, like, what do you mean? He's supposed to just break the law. And then Trump comes in and breaks the law. And then it like, because of the Supreme court and because of our system gets away with it. And then people look at that as like, Oh, I guess you could have done that. You know, it's like, what a

0:45:54 Matt: Yeah. Well, yeah.

0:46:08 Matt: Yeah. No. And Trump was trying to use INA 212F, which is like, it's an extremely broad thing that they claim you can use to pretty much shut down immigration completely. Completely. And the DC Circuit again and again has stopped him from doing that. The Supreme Court even, you know, did not completely go with what the way he was using it. Um, but you know, very inconvenient. The courts are doing this. But you know, that's uh, that's how it is. That's the law. So

0:46:29 Lydia: But the question of how to reverse the lawbreaking requires the same attitude. Yet even Trump recognizes that the challenge is immense. Quote, it's a very difficult thing with the courts, he said in April 2025, noting how much success detained migrants have in using appeals to delay their removal.

0:46:45 Matt: That's not what he was noting. I looked that quote up because I remembered when he said that about the difficult thing with the courts. The complaint that he had in April 2025, in that Oval Office meeting, was he just found out about an immigration court. He was getting mad about the concept of immigration court. And he literally said, you can't give all these people trials. You can't let them see a judge. He actually says that, right? And that's the difficult thing with the courts. He's like, well, these are going to, it's going to take years. If we have to put them through court, we should just deport them.

0:46:58 Lydia: Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

0:47:01 Thomas: Good

0:47:11 Matt: So he wasn't talking about, I found the quote. He wasn't talking about appeals. He was talking about the trials, due process, those

0:47:14 Lydia: Interesting. On a good day, ICE has managed to deport a maximum of 1,200 people, meaning it would take decades of sustained effort to remove the number of illegals who came in during Joe Biden's presidency alone.

0:47:23 Thomas: Day. Fuck you. Yeah, if you use a made-up number.

0:47:30 Lydia: Yeah. Trump originally set a target of 1 million removals per year, and ICE naturally has managed only a sliver of that.

0:47:30 Thomas: Sure, yeah. Does he mean ICE naturally? I wonder, what does he mean, ICE? Does he mean like ICE naturally has only like, are there underachievers?

0:47:43 Matt: Lizards.

0:47:43 Thomas: Or yeah, or does he mean like naturally, without extreme measure? I actually wonder. What do you think he means there, ICE naturally has managed only a sliver of that, because it, I think based on the tone of the article, that's him saying like, because these people never actually follow through with what they want, naturally ICE only managed a little bit of that. But like, dude, one thing you could say is like, they're trying their asses off, like, you quote-unquote gotta hand it to ICE for trying their fucking, they're trying, and then this is this is yeah, Douglas Murray being like, these lazy sacks, they're not even fucking trying to be evil, they're not,

0:47:47 Matt: Yeah. That's a weird use of that. I don't know either. Yeah. There's no comma. So yeah.

0:48:03 Lydia: Man,

0:48:12 Matt: And they've got all the money. They've given so much money. Yeah.

0:48:18 Thomas: They aren't even, bro, do you even Nazi, like, come on, you think so, and

0:48:22 Lydia: I think I take your second hypothetical, hypothetical there, like, like a little more, um, I, I think that it's like because of the way the system is naturally, they're only able to deport a certain number of people and that those are the things that should go away, yeah.

0:48:35 Thomas: ICE naturally I don't know, yeah, maybe I really don't know. "ICE naturally has managed only a sliver of that." ICE naturally

0:48:42 Matt: Has anybody tried telling ICE to put people on buses and drive them to the border? I think that's the real question here.

0:48:46 Lydia: Simplify.

0:48:43 Thomas: No one thought of that? Have you ever just thought of putting the magic juice in the rocket shit thing? Yeah, yeah, I don't know, and I, yeah, I could go either way, I kind of lean toward mine, but maybe, I do think if it was "ICE naturally," maybe he would have put a comma in there if it was, so maybe that's an argument for for what you're saying, yeah, ICE naturally has managed only a sliver. Yeah, that's a weird thing to say, isn't it? All right, well,

0:48:49 Lydia: Yeah. I

0:49:01 Matt: This next sentence is astounding.

0:49:02 Lydia: Don't know, he's British, so I don't know. The pressure to maximize those numbers helped lead the administration toward the sweeping raids and and aggressive tactics that have now helped undermine deportations altogether.

0:49:21 Thomas: Yeah,

0:49:21 Matt: What do you want, man? What are you trying to do here?

0:49:21 Thomas: Yeah, what are you saying, I thought you're just saying the opposite, yeah, so,

0:49:24 Matt: Because we need aggressive tactics and sweeping raids, but if we do that, then people won't like it. But we should get the a mandate, I know, it's

0:49:29 Lydia: Yeah. So why are you writing this article? What's the point?

0:49:32 Thomas: He really is doing the jetpack thing, he's like, then they did it bad and that didn't work, so you need to do it with do it millions of people, yeah, but the jetpack way, so no one gets mad.

0:49:36 Lydia: Yeah. The magic way. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

0:49:32 Matt: Yeah, well, you need to get an electoral mandate to do the thing that nobody wants you to do, that they got mad that when they watched you do it, that you want them, they should want more of it.

0:49:47 Lydia: Mm-hmm.

0:49:48 Thomas: Yeah, that's what What an idiot, like, what are you talking about, yeah,

0:49:50 Matt: Yeah. This is why I want to read it after seeing, yeah, this is just how

0:49:54 Lydia: Given these realities, it's clear why politicians across the political spectrum prefer to embrace amnesty. Republicans and Democrats have done this in the past, as have most governments across all other Western countries. There are various ways to gild this fact without calling the situation an, quote, amnesty. In the UK, quote, indefinite leave to remain has remained a legal nicety, as has the granting of asylum to people who are too difficult to remove.

0:50:19 Matt: About people who qualify for asylum, that's a lot of the people who get it are probably qualified, too difficult to remove, and also inconveniently very afraid to return to their home country, it's going to get get killed or whatever. So yeah, those

0:50:20 Lydia: Yeah. That's really rude. Too difficult to remove. Yeah.

0:50:21 Thomas: Yeah, kind of left that out. Wow, yeah, wow, yeah, the good pickup on that. It's creating silent people, too difficult, boy, okay, yeah,

0:50:33 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. All such policies inadvertently increase the likely flow of illegals in the future by suggesting that lawbreaking will be rewarded and is certainly preferable to the lengthy and costly process involved in entering any Western country through legal means.

0:50:51 Matt: Processes definitely exist. Yeah, this is a time-honored thing about if you do any kind of amnesty. And again, the Republicans supported amnesty exactly once under Reagan. That was the one time Democrats have pushed it. And there have been very small amnesty programs along the way. But it's interesting because he's very informed by British politics and by European immigration politics, which are very different from our immigration politics in a lot of ways, just naturally for lots of reasons. But a lot of the the same stuff, um,

0:51:11 Lydia: Mm-hmm.

0:51:14 Thomas: Matt,

0:51:19 Lydia: Yeah. Yet many people in the communities most affected by the wave have begun to demand a firmer response. British villages that are about to be completely overwhelmed by the placement of illegal migrants in their neighborhoods have started holding token, quote, referendums to declare independence from the UK. This has happened in places like the quintessentially English village of Pittington, which has a population of 350, but is about to have 1,200 male illegal migrants placed down the road.

0:51:48 Thomas: Is that true, 1200?

0:51:49 Matt: You might be, might not, you'd be surprised to learn that that is not an accurate uh depiction. You might have heard about the Pittington thing, actually, I think even Pittington in itself might make a good weather's woke sometime, but um, it is true there's a very small town and they're not happy about the fact that they're going to be housing asylum seekers at a military site, it's going, they're going to be, they're not coming to town, um, they're going to be, you know, I guess, I don't know how far down the street, but um, but they, they, this little town voted to secede from the UK as a symbolic vote because they didn't like it. Yeah.

0:51:53 Lydia: Yeah. Mmm. Oh, OK. It

0:51:54 Thomas: Male huh, okay, because of that, oh, boy, 10,

0:52:20 Lydia: Is imperative to deport many of these newcomers because in no country has there been any democratic mandate for such population changes. If Joe Biden and Kamala Harris had announced in 2020 that they were about to allow 10 million people to break into America, the presidential election would have swung the other way.

0:52:36 Thomas: Million people, yeah, weird, yeah, where do we get those extra two million, I

0:52:36 Matt: Now it's 10? I thought it was eight. Just juked that up. All right.

0:52:37 Lydia: Yeah. Deporting illegal migrants will also be necessary as long as generous public benefits exist, as they are certain to in every Western country. You can either maintain

0:52:52 Matt: Oh, certainly. He hasn't lived here very long, has he?

0:52:54 Lydia: Open

0:52:54 Thomas: Don't think, I don't think, you've met us, hi, we're America, we have neither, so

0:52:59 Lydia: Borders or a welfare state, but you cannot keep both. Yeah, neither. Okay. What? In every country in which illegal migration has happened on a large scale, the numbers of arrivals have overwhelmed social housing, social security, and the welfare systems that exist. Exist where illegal workers have taken up work, they have done so on the black market undercutting the salaries acceptable to native-born or legal migrant workers.

0:53:04 Thomas: Oh, boy, yeah,

0:53:26 Matt: Because we won't give them work permits. That's the literal reality. We want them.

0:53:28 Thomas: Because the employers often

0:53:30 Lydia: Because capitalism and maximizing profit, yeah, Not long ago, trade unions fiercely opposed illegal immigration on this basis, but in their alliance with the modern left, many have gotten on board with open borders, to their members' detriment. I

0:53:31 Thomas: Want that way, yeah, what

0:53:31 Matt: Yeah, exactly. Permanent underclass.

0:53:45 Matt: Also, a lot of unions now have a lot of immigrants in them. He doesn't mention that either. But there's

0:53:46 Thomas: Yeah, also, there's no meaningful open border, I don't know if he's talking about Europe or something, but in America there isn't a meaningful group of people who want open borders, like literally there just isn't, it's like the

0:54:02 Matt: Not access to welfare either, except

0:54:02 Thomas: Yeah,

0:54:03 Lydia: Don't think I can think of a country in Europe that also has like an open border policy. I don't know. I mean, except for like if you have the, yeah, exactly. Between the countries, if you have the EU, yeah.

0:54:09 Matt: The EU itself between the countries, but that's different. Are

0:54:15 Lydia: Finally, there is the simple issue of fairness. It is generally agreed, especially in the US, that a small amount of selective legal migration can benefit society. This reflects the three central facts around migration. Immigration can work if the volume is manageable, the speed is moderate, and the people who arrive passionately wish to integrate into the society in question. Absent all three of these things, a society will face either revolt, collapse, or both.

0:54:07 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah,

0:54:40 Matt: Those the three central facts?

0:54:40 Thomas: Man. Sure. Yeah.

0:54:42 Matt: I had never heard that before. Three things I just made up.

0:54:45 Lydia: Yeah. To describe this issue as existential to the West is to understate things, and yet one government after another continues to drop it into the, quote, too difficult to handle bucket.

0:54:55 Matt: It being mass deportation. Let's just remind you.

0:54:57 Lydia: Mm-hmm.

0:54:58 Thomas: Also, it's it's to understate it. What was that book you said you wrote 10 fucking years ago, which is the demise of Europe? Is Europe gone? Is it is it wiped off the map now? Maybe it's not as existential as you think. Yeah.

0:55:05 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Also, when he says it's in the too-difficult-to-handle bucket, as opposed to his plan, which is get some buses, go pick them up, and then go drive them to the coast.

0:55:17 Matt: Yeah.

0:55:17 Thomas: Hit the Switch. Switch on your rocket boosters and fly.

0:55:23 Lydia: Done. You did it.

0:55:23 Matt: How hard can that be?

0:55:24 Lydia: Yeah, did it.

0:55:23 Thomas: God, it's so dumb.

0:55:24 Matt: Yeah, yeah.

0:55:26 Lydia: This is especially ironic in light of the fact that left-wing governments like Andy Burnham's in Britain are convinced that their policies can change the course of the global climate. It.

0:55:34 Thomas: What the fuck did that? Okay. What?

0:55:36 Matt: Yeah, I got to throw that in.

0:55:37 Thomas: Yeah.

0:55:38 Lydia: My prediction is a gloomy one. Nations burdened by mass migration won't get serious about reversing the trend until the situation gets far worse, when constant low-scale or significant mass-scale atrocities are carried out by people who should not be in the country, and when the hearts of even the softest swing voters begin to harden. Nobody can predict when that day will come, but it will come, and the leaders who failed to address these issues will have to answer to an angry public. Oh.

0:56:03 Matt: It's never actually happened in the United States. We've never had a mass terror attack carried out by people that weren't supposed to be here. I'd be very surprised if it ever did happen.

0:56:12 Matt: So yeah, that's how he has to end, though, is fear, because he's trying to support a policy that is fundamentally just unspeakably cruel. And I don't think, even in his fantasies, I don't think he's actually played out what it would actually look like, especially in the US, if we had actual mass deportation, let alone, I mean, of course, he does not mention the economic self-harm that we'd be doing, like the absolutely, yes, that's true.

0:56:15 Lydia: Yeah, yeah.

0:56:31 Thomas: Didn't you hear about the buses, Matt? He definitely has thought this through.

0:56:34 Matt: That's the cheap and easy, yep.

0:56:35 Thomas: Buses. Yeah.

0:56:36 Matt: And all those jobs will be immediately replaced and the houses will keep getting built and everything will be fine. I

0:56:40 Lydia: I think we got to take our third break though before we close it out

0:56:42 Thomas: What an idiot. Yeah, let's take that third break and then, yeah, exactly. So, thank you to our top Hall of Famers, blah, blah, blah, blah, podcast. Philly Basement Bar says we should take off and nuke this site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. E.T., Elect Thomas Smith President, American Honkytonk Bar Association, Baltakatei, Philip Kizer, THE Bonnie Willis. What was that again?

0:56:45 Lydia: Oh,

0:57:05 Thomas: Oh, Bonnie Wallace? This says Willis, but What was

0:57:04 Lydia: Bonnie Wallace, I think it's Wallace, but maybe they misheard us. Yeah, I think it's Bonnie Wallace, that, that's from Dan Patrick. She's the, the person who goes around to all the, yeah, yeah, no, oh,

0:57:10 Thomas: That from? Yeah The Bonnie I thought it was Willis. Oh, whatever, Coryn_Lann You would know better, A string of unpronounceable characters, Malaika Chandler, David in Brooklyn, RhondaTheDork.com, Milo Meadsong, Arooges. Oh, okay. How did I not notice that it's Arooges? Or did I say that before? But argues the plural form of footnote, kind of like attorneys general should be notes, feetsies. Chris Waltrip, Big Easy Blasphemy, hors d'oeuvres in the court before we report. Sam Donow, classic libtard, FRED R GROOTHUIS, and Mitchell, our top patron. Ooh, Fred is closing in.

0:57:28 Lydia: I don't, yeah, yeah,

0:57:45 Thomas: Holy moly. Ah, love Fred.

0:57:45 Lydia: Yeah, but was that switch, did that happen last time too, Fred in the number two spot? I think he just pulled past. Hey, congrats, Fred.

0:57:51 Thomas: Oh, no, he might've just pulled past. Yeah. Congrats, Fred. You're the best. Love that guy. All right, thanks, top patrons, and, uh, we'll take that last break and get to it. All right, Matt, so what, what have we learned?

0:57:56 Lydia: Yeah, that's

0:58:04 Matt: It's actually, you know, we don't do this enough, I think, in some of these pieces of going back and actually picking apart, part what we've just read and actually talking about the thing, because this was, yeah,

0:58:12 Lydia: We usually just kind of throw our hands up and we're like, okay, we have to go. Like we can't, I don't want to do this anymore.

0:58:15 Thomas: I thought I was, but fine.

0:58:15 Matt: Right, this is enough. Yeah. Well, we're doing it piece by piece.

0:58:17 Thomas: Guess I'll see myself out. Yeah.

0:58:20 Lydia: We do it as we go through, but yeah, but never like a reflection. Section.

0:58:22 Thomas: Yeah.

0:58:24 Matt: But I Mean, I just want to point out that this is somebody that these people think is an intellectual and he's publishing in one of the leading conservative publications in the United States right now. And this is the best argument he has. Simultaneously saying, this is extremely unpopular and the more you do it, the more people hate it. But also, the only way to do it is to get a mandate, like a big mandate, and then you're just gonna have to go ahead and do it. But also, it's what everybody wants, I guess.

0:58:28 Lydia: Yeah.

0:58:49 Lydia: What is his position here? Like it's so confusing in that article because it seems like he also simultaneously wants to call out Republicans for not doing this. But then if he's saying that the constituents don't want them to do that, then aren't they actually doing the right thing by like doing what their constituents want?

0:58:49 Thomas: Yeah.

0:59:05 Thomas: I think, I think he's trying to say boo hoo hoo. Everybody's gonna like, don't worry about, yeah.

0:59:08 Lydia: Yeah. But in a British accent. Yeah.

0:59:12 Thomas: Like, oh, I'm so, I'm so tough because I can look at suffering and be heartless about it.

0:59:12 Lydia: Yeah. Go ahead. I'm just kidding. Yeah.

0:59:13 Matt: It's even worse.

0:59:17 Thomas: And that makes me tough. You know, I think, I think that's kind of what it is. Like, Like, don't worry about pictures taken of people crying or, you know, in this country, video footage of people being shot.

0:59:18 Matt: Right, right.

0:59:26 Lydia: Right. Right. You should come to expect that there will be. Yeah. Mm

0:59:30 Thomas: Don't worry about that. That's nothing.

0:59:31 Lydia: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

0:59:33 Matt: And I also want to point out that he does the usual bait and switch that all these people do, where he's talking about, well, the rule of law demands that we do this, right? It's so important that we follow every law to the letter, which we never do in any other way. But he's also talking about these newcomers, and the headline is about mass migration, because that's what it's really about, and about population changes, right? That's really what all of this is. That's what it comes down to, is I just don't like some of these people. In that clip that, well, a lot of these people, in the clip that we saw, that's right, in that clip in the Doha thing, there's a point at which he says, you know, well, I've seen more burqas in London than I've seen in Doha. And I don't think that's probably true, but also, like, whatever. I mean, it just depends what part of London you're

0:59:41 Lydia: Right. Yeah.

0:59:55 Thomas: And it should be illegal for me to be unhappy. So follow the law.

1:00:14 Matt: In. But But yeah,

1:00:15 Lydia: Yeah.

1:00:15 Thomas: I've been to London. I don't, yeah, I don't, Berkus?

1:00:16 Matt: I actually worked in an immigration office in a major Muslim area, and I didn't see that many.

1:00:18 Lydia: I don't remember seeing any. Yeah.

1:00:19 Thomas: I don't remember seeing any. I mean, there might be a few.

1:00:22 Matt: But I mean, I just, and I haven't been to Qatar. I don't know, but I just find it hard to believe. I don't know. But he just says things like that. And he says a lot of things. But his ongoing point and the reason, and what's particularly interesting, and it's really that interesting with Douglas Murray, except for how unknowingly attracted I am to him. But he's just got this thing in which, what? I'm sorry.

1:00:23 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

1:00:39 Lydia: Matt. No.

1:00:41 Thomas: Format.

1:00:41 Matt: He's my type.

1:00:42 Thomas: Matt.

1:00:42 Matt: What can I do? I'm sorry. Can you find me like a clone of Douglas Murray? I don't know. Anyway, so he does the thing.

1:00:44 Lydia: Oh, my God. We got to get you out more.

1:00:42 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, boy. Let's get him in a re-education camp. Matt gets out way more than we do.

1:00:54 Lydia: Yeah, that's

1:00:54 Matt: And yet I still don't meet tailored

1:00:55 Lydia: True. That's true. Oh, yeah. What's wrong? You're not going the right places.

1:01:00 Matt: Suits and British gentlemen.

1:00:58 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. All right. If you listening are like Douglas Murray, but not evil, let us know.

1:01:04 Matt: But good, yeah.

1:01:05 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

1:01:06 Thomas: Write in.

1:01:06 Matt: Or even boring if you're even neutral. Yeah. If you can talk to me about calculus.

1:01:09 Lydia: If you have a British accent.

1:01:10 Matt: Yeah. So as it is, though, we are are looking at the typical kind of dodge of the guy who's like, well, I'm not racist. I'm not white nationalist. I'm not ethno-nationalist. I'm just talking about culture. I'm just talking about our national sort of makeup.

1:01:11 Lydia: Yeah. Matt's into that.

1:01:24 Thomas: I'm just saying all the same exact things that those people always say, and they're big big fans of me. It's just coincidence.

1:01:28 Matt: Yeah. And if you say that I'm any of those things, I will see you. And in some cases, I will win. There was a clip that the Observer lost a lot of money recently because he was talking about, specifically, he claimed that he was talking only about members of Hamas in the UK, I can't imagine how many of them there really are, celebrating on October 7th. And he was talking about how I don't want these people here. And he was talking to the former prime minister of Australia in an interview. And he's saying, well, it's like if you had people in your country that hated Australia, that they're in your country. He was clearly talking about, well, I don't want to get sued, but one might surmise that he was talking about a much broader population.

And the Observer did use the quote somewhat out of context, but he was so mad that he thought the Observer might be suggesting that he didn't like a whole group of people when he was just just talking about, you know, a very small group of people on that one day, the quote doesn't sound like that at all, but

1:01:35 Thomas: Wow. He's won some lawsuits.

1:01:48 Thomas: Yeah.

1:02:18 Lydia: Yeah.

1:02:18 Matt: This is what I'm talking about, like, he's vindicating his rights very, very, whatever, it's his right to do that, I guess, but uh, yeah,

1:02:18 Lydia: Yeah. But it's so funny that like he is so up in arms about stuff like that and then can just, you know, get things wrong in any article that he writes. He can just invent numbers or completely mischaracterize the poll that we went through. Like it's just to be on both sides of that is really obnoxious.

1:02:33 Matt: Oh, sure, yeah. No, and and like, he is fueling, it's exactly the kind of stuff, like, there's no direct institutional look to something like the Center for Immigration Studies, but it's the same stuff, like, this is exactly what they do too, is they come right up short of that, like, and they'll, they're, they were happy to ally, and as is Murray, they're happy to ally with people that are pretty openly bad, but they're just not going to say the thing.

1:02:59 Matt: And the stuff he's saying is bad enough. But yeah, it's whitewashing.

1:02:58 Lydia: Mm hmm. Yeah. But but he definitely has his hands in American think tanks as well. Like I talked at the outset for, you know, his involvement on in U.K. conservative think tanks, but he's affiliated with the Manhattan Institute very deeply and, you know, on other places as well. So I guess just he has his hands in everything.

1:03:22 Matt: I mean, just to review the names of his books, I just have the list here. The Strange Death of Europe, colon, immigration, identity, Islam, right?

1:03:28 Lydia: Yeah.

1:03:30 Thomas: More and more hysterical as you go. We're all dying. We're to help. Help. 9-1-1.

1:03:33 Matt: Yeah. No, that's true. It is.

1:03:35 Thomas: Yeah. Emergency.

1:03:35 Lydia: Yeah.

1:03:35 Matt: Because it goes from The Strange Death of Europe, which is a reference to a book from from the 20s about the strange death of the Liberal Party, the strange death of immigration, identity, Islam, and then the next one in 2019, the madness of crowds, and he's talking about gender, race, and identity, because of course he is, and then the war on the West. So we've gone from the strange death of Europe to the madness of crowds to the war on the West.

1:03:55 Matt: And then in 2025, it becomes on democracies and death cults, Israel and the future of civilization. Apparently, Israel is not the death cult in this title.

1:03:51 Thomas: God. He's so embattled. Yeah. I was going to say, I'd almost agree with that in a certain way, but that's probably not how he means it.

1:04:06 Matt: Yeah.

1:04:05 Lydia: No, I don't think that's his angle, please.

1:04:09 Thomas: Oh, what an asshole. Well, let somebody, somebody email in and help Matt not not make a big mistake, you know, just help me. We need a posh sounding British man really badly. Help. No, just kidding. All right. Well, that was a lot of fun and frustrating as always. And fuck that guy. Racist.

1:04:24 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Frustrating as always.

1:04:30 Thomas: He sucks.

1:04:30 Lydia: There you go.

1:04:32 Thomas: But thanks, Matt, for the breakdown. Thanks, Lydia. And thanks most of all to our listeners and supporters. Make the show happen. You're the best. And we'll see you on Friday.

1:04:44 Clip: This has been Opening Arguments, produced by Thomas and Lydia Smith, with editing help from Peter Baird. The intro is by Thomas Smith. This outro is by Matt Cameron. Support the show at patreon.com/law. Contact us through Patreon or openarguments@gmail.com. Make sure to follow our blue sky, at OpenArgs. But most of all, please share the show. Thanks for listening.