SIO519: People Are Misinterpreting Obsession in Very Revealing Ways

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:11 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 519. I'm Thomas Smith and that over there is Lydia Smith, who I have wished to do a podcast with me,. Kind of blew my wish if I'm

0:00:18 Lydia: Hi. Yeah. There's also like secret me that somehow like pops up every now and then like whispering like, please, just kill me. Yeah, I wish we didn't have to talk about it. I wish this never happened to me. But it did.

0:00:25 Thomas: Being honest. I think I could have gotten that without blowing my one wish now that I think about it. It just doesn't want to do the podcast. I hate podcasts! No more podcasts! Oh boy, boy, I am really excited to talk about this. We got to talk about the movie Obsession, mostly because you died for our sins. Yeah. Oh man, we'll get to it. It is so interesting.

There's just so many interesting things to talk about when it comes to, I mean, we almost were doing a where there's woke on this when it goes to like the, you know, go woke, go the opposite of broke.. There's also like people are missing the point of the movie in really interesting ways.

Like every single way that people miss the point, I find fascinating. It's also just really good. It's a really fucking good movie, you know. We've done some movie stuff on here in the past, so it's something we do from time to time, but it's also something where it's like, this isn't one that we can really try to, oh no, spoilers. So it puts us in a tough spot with anyone who either hasn't seen it or is going to see it, I guess. That's really the key. It's like, if you're about to see it, then maybe, maybe don't listen. Yes. Please listen. Yeah. Yeah, we do this thing where we have this empty

0:01:38 Lydia: Yeah, if you don't desire to see it, you could still listen to this, and I think the conversation is going to be super interesting. But if you're, if you haven't gotten around to seeing it yet, I just saw release information that it will be available to rent digitally starting June 25th. So it's, you know, coming up right around the corner. If you're, if you're waiting to watch it, you can't get to the theater, know that it will be available to you that way, and I hope you'll listen to us then. I know. Well, because we always wait too long to go see movies.

0:02:05 Thomas: Movie theater. We go to, it's pretty creepy every time. Yeah, we wait too long, and then we go during the day on, like, a fucking Monday. Yeah, so we go to, we have our, we have a private theater. Do we

0:02:12 Lydia: Yeah, on a weekday. Yeah, because we are old people.

0:02:19 Thomas: We have a private theater. Could we say we have a private screening room? It's, yeah, it's unclear who runs it. Like, it, we just go, there's nobody there, we walk in, the movie's playing. Like, I think the movie start, like, it used to be that they had to, I think it cost a lot of money to run the projector and the whatever. Hopefully nowadays, it's the only thing I could think of, is like, I hope that's free. I hope there's no incremental cost to running the movie. 'Cause I don't want some person to be like, please, no one buy a ticket, please. No one buy it. Take it. And then like you and I are like last second, the only two ticket, which is this happened five times. Like this is the only way we see movies. And I just don't want somebody to be fucking these people. God damn it. Okay. Crack open the canister. Yeah.

0:02:21 Lydia: It's nice. We pay matinee prices. It's like eight dollars for each ticket. It's great. Private movie Movie theater. Yeah. Just electricity. Yeah, yeah. It's a lot. Yeah, I really don't think There's a guy up in the booth. Yeah, he's not, like, feeding the film strips in, and then we get the pop

0:03:13 Thomas: Yeah. I'm hoping it's just like a windows screen share and then they double click like, like, you know, VLC media player. Yeah, exactly. That's what I hope it is. Yeah. Like a dumb, like that noise. Yeah but anyway, so we got our private screening room. I can't, I still, do you still feel sensitive about like talking? I still can't do it. It's such a, yeah. Yeah it's also, it's also like a church. Like you just shouldn't, it's just a place where you don't, you know? Yeah. You don't talk, but yeah, it was funny. So anyway, go see it. You should see it well. I'm trying to think if there's anyone like Lydia, if you don't like scary things, maybe don't. Uh, it's, it'S, it's probably, this might be the scariest movie I've ever seen in way, in a way it's not, it's in an interesting way. And that, and I don't watch scary movies really. Like I watched the ones that are like this, that get really good reviews and I just don't really care.

0:03:19 Lydia: Pop-up, like, yeah, exactly. God, the worst. Yes. I'm worried that someone snuck in when I wasn't looking. I'm gonna ruin their movie-going experience. Yeah, it's reverence. Maybe don't Oh yeah, there was a disgusting preview that we saw that was, yeah, it was like, it was kids killing

0:04:12 Thomas: I don't like horror much. I mean, I, I'll dabble, you know, here, here and there. I don't watch any movies for the gore. That's enough. I don't understand that. I actually very much do not understand that, oh, Minions, yeah, I know, it's so funny, we saw a preview for, like, Gouge Someone's Eyes Out, the movie, it was, I don't even know the fuck, it was Eli Roth, yeah it was like, just, and it was the most ridiculous in the preview, yeah. Yeah. And it was like, okay, I guess that is, that what we're seeing? Because I don't, I forgot to mention this. I try not to look anything up about movies. I really want to go in totally fresh. So I look nothing up. I had a sense that it was going to be scary. I probably wouldn't have asked you to go had I known it would be this scary, which sucks because Lydia has been scarred for life, which is a reason we need to do this episode. Otherwise, what are the, the therapy bills for, you know, like, what are we gonna, poor Lydia, I had to help Lydia out of the

0:04:34 Lydia: Their parents and in the most disgusting ways. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got to build to something. Which line item? You guys, I seriously felt like I got off a ship. Like I had no sense

0:05:14 Thomas: Theater, yeah, yeah, it was intense. And yeah, it's, it's, and Lydia doesn't do scary movies, so it's

0:05:20 Lydia: Sense of balance. I was lightheaded. All my joints were achy. It was bad. I was not doing well. Nope. That becomes my reality for that period of time. And

0:05:34 Thomas: It's for her, movies are real or something. I don't, I still don't get it, but I, it seems like movies are like real to you or something, and I get into it. I was, yeah, I mean, I got into this, it was, poof

0:05:43 Lydia: If it's really effective, then that can bleed into my reality. No, it stays

0:05:51 Thomas: It was unpleasant, but for me I think it, like, it wears off more, and then for you it seems like maybe it doesn't as much. For your whole life, every waking moment is just you in a movie, like, you

0:05:58 Lydia: With me for my life. So literally my entire life. Hope you're ready for that, hon. Oh, like, I just can picture things, like, literally in the back of my mind right now

0:06:07 Thomas: Don't even, I can't too, but they're, they're not. So, Jesus, this is the horror movie. Anyway, all right

0:06:12 Lydia: I can imagine things from that movie that are happening behind me. Yeah, but it's happening in my room. Like, I feel like it could be there. Yeah, or if you want to avoid a lifetime that

0:06:25 Thomas: Right. We've given people enough padding and time to make a decision. There's a lot, there is a lot of good stuff to talk about. I mean, is it, is it about incels or is it about obsessive women? You know, is it about, is it a monkey's paw scenario or is it just a normal wish scenario? There's lots of really, really good misconceptions and places where we actually have some pretty solid answers from the director. So it's not just us like, you know, speculating.

I mean, we're going to speculate about some stuff, but like for the most part, we have pretty solid answers on this stuff, and it's interesting that people are getting it wrong. So I'm excited to talk about it. I think we'll take our first little break here. Uh, patreon.com/seriouspod, we've got so much to talk about. I hope you'll enjoy it even if you, uh, don't want to see the movie. Like I said, the only people who should maybe, maybe pause this one is if you're about to see it in the next few days or something and you don't want spoilers, then don't.

No, they're not going to get that from listening to us. Yeah, the only people who should not maybe listen is, is that if you're about to see it, you have imminent plans to see it, and then pause this and put it away for later, because you're going to want to join this discussion, I feel like. Okay, so duly warned, I want to just always give people plenty of time. You know, I care a lot about spoilers, but after this break, folks, we're in a spoiler zone, which just has to be.

0:07:19 Lydia: I'm about to experience. Oh, that's true. Yeah, you guys can listen. Yes. Yep, it has to happen Well, spoiler zone, there is probably some stuff that I missed because I closed my eyes for a lot of the movie. So there might be news for me as we're talking about this. Some things that like I didn't catch. Yeah. I hid under my shirt. I put my hands up. I covered my ears simultaneously, like with my arms. I just kind of wrapped myself up in a little ball. I looked at my feet and my knees.

0:07:43 Thomas: All right, we'll see you in the spoiler zone.

0:08:03 Thomas: Oh, yeah, that's like most of the movie, yeah. News. This just in. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Okay, so I'm not sure Lydia saw the movie, so

0:08:25 Lydia: Oh, I saw plenty. I saw enough. Out of Alabama, move to LA. Right, right. Why are people doing this?

0:08:26 Thomas: I'll tell you about it. Yeah, but we gotta talk about the story of this movie. I think most people probably are familiar with this, but in case, it's pretty fucking crazy. This guy, Cary Barker, was just like, I mean, he was doing some acting. He had some guest spots.

He was doing a YouTube kind of series, a little bit more comedy with that, but he's 26 friggin' years old, and he made, yeah, he moved, LA, he made this YouTube movie called The Chair, I think. I haven't watched it. But then from that, uh, you know, he's done some other stuff, like he's been trying to make it, you know, it's not like he was snatched out of Alabama or something. He moved to LA trying to get, doing stuff. Uh, obviously seems very talented. And then what's cool is after The Chair, someone was like, hey, I'll give you, know, let's, let's make that movie, essentially financially. And then he apparently was like, no, uh, and then pitched them this, uh, and that's how this came to be. So I don't think there was like a YouTube version of this or whatever, like there was with the other one, the Backrooms one, whatever that is. I'm not, I won't make you watch that one. I don't know how scary it is, but it's a horror movie. So why are people doing this? Yeah, yeah.

0:09:34 Lydia: Isn't the real world horror enough? Pennies. I mean, when you're talking about movie making. Yeah.

0:09:41 Thomas: So anyway, the guy makes the movie, and it's like they make it for 750,000. Yeah, I mean, it really is pennies. Yeah, especially in this, that's like just the sandwich budget for, like, most movies because they're so expensive now, but it was, you know, low budge, no real actors besides randomly Andy Richter. I don't, I I, that, I haven't gotten to the bottom of that, actually, because it's such a random character. I haven't, but, um, yeah, it's what it seems like, um, did I haven't looked into that. It'd be interesting, just like random, um, but it's fine. Like, he's great. It's a great little part

0:09:51 Lydia: Yeah. He joined the Kickstarter. He got the guest spot. No, I haven't seen anything about that.

0:10:16 Lydia: Yeah, it is random. Toronto International Film Festival, I think, because it's TIFF.

0:10:19 Thomas: It's perfect, uh, it's just kind of funny. And so he's making this movie, tiny budget obviously, they don't know exactly what's going to happen, but they get into the Toronto Film Festival, um, whatever that one's called. It might be called the Toronto Film Festival, I don't, I'm not, oh yeah, it's like TIFF. Yeah, it does well there, and then there's a little bit of a bidding war, so I guess that's

0:10:36 Lydia: Mm-hmm. Man. I think it all depends on the contracts and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Right, right.

0:10:40 Thomas: What kind of can happen sometimes with with this kind of thing, and they sell the movie for 15, 15 million dollars. I don't know, it's also an interesting topic, like how exactly the money stuff works out. I don't know who gets that. I guess, I guess he would, that was probably his payday, because when you cut to later on, when obviously the box office is insane, I don't know that he get, you know, like, does he get a piece of that or not? Is it like whoever bought the film to distribute it at that point, they're raking that in, you know? I don't know, maybe he got points on it. Yeah, but I've just for he's 26, his first movie, I have no idea.

He had a manager and stuff though, I, I don't think it's, you know, so, but anyway, he's doing fine, but it's just interesting to think about. So obviously 15 million. And what's really crazy is that like, so first off, there's this great interview in the Hollywood Reporter that really tells the story of it. Cause he was just hoping like, well, I hope that, you Know, they made it for 750,000, I Hope it makes 15 million. Like, and I could totally relate to that. It's like, dear God, if this is a loss, I would be so upset. At least it makes $15 million in one dollar. So you can be like, all right. Yeah, you'd probably want it to make them a little bit of profit. Otherwise, it's a waste of their time. And so first day, it makes seven million, which is pretty good. Definitely a little surprising.

0:11:16 Lydia: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, make the studio like feel like this was a worthwhile investment. Yeah Yeah, right week over week, right? Yeah

0:12:00 Thomas: Surprising, but the crazy thing about this movie is, unlike almost, almost all other movies which have a massive drop-off after the first weekend, it goes up and it continues to go up and week over week, yeah, it, to an extent, I think it broke some sort of record previously set by ET or

0:12:19 Lydia: When drew barrymore was a child folks

0:12:19 Thomas: Something in terms of like the multiplier of how much it's gone up, you know, after the first weekend. Yeah, when ET was a little, little alien, uh, when Fred Savage was a, was an ET, so, uh

0:12:30 Lydia: Yeah, just a little guy. He wasn't in that. Not Fred Savage, Princess Bride.

0:12:36 Thomas: No, I don't remember, it's been a while since I've seen that. Oh, who's the kid? Yeah, you're right, what am I thinking of? Yeah, probably that doesn't have ET in it. Um, no, uh, when whoever was in that. Yeah.

0:12:47 Lydia: It's a random kid.

0:12:49 Thomas: That's just some random kid, isn't it? Oh man, okay. So it goes up and up, and then the second weekend it's made 17 million, and then it's like gone to 27 million, to the point where like it's just so good. That's what I love about this, it's a little subtle distinction between, oh, this is the warmed over crap that everyone will kind of like or whatever, like that's not it, it's, but when it's the stuff where it's this person clearly captured lightning in a bottle, I just, I knew I had to see it for sure. Um, even though like I said, I'm not, I love good movies, I don't have a ton of time for for movies, but I love to see the best ones.

I don't care about genre. Like if, if something's like, Hey, this is a great movie. I wish I had the time to watch every fucking movie for myself, but for the most part, I do kind of have to rely on like reviews a little bit and see. But if it's, if it'S, you know, consensus, like this is really good one. I will see it no matter what it is. Whereas I think, you probably wouldn't because of the horror thing. Oof.

0:13:35 Lydia: Yeah, well, I had a friend who has been telling me for weeks, you have to go see Obsession, you have to go see Obsession, and when I told him, well, he knows, I told them, I was like, I hate scary movies

0:13:46 Thomas: So that friend doesn't know you very well. Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to not bring it up during this.

0:13:51 Lydia: And he was like, I get it, you have to go see this, and I was like, not gonna happen, my guy. Well, I have to tell him, I guess, I saw it, but I don't want to talk about it ever again, like, don't bring it up. I have to leave now. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Music was great. Yeah, yeah. Lighting. Mm hmm. Yeah

0:14:06 Thomas: So that's crazy, and there's a lot to talk about, I don't even know where to begin, but I do want to talk about one part of it, which is letting an artist fucking do their thing. Like, it is so perfect that the movie that is a runaway success is something where it started off as one guy, because he wrote, directed, and edited it, which, which is crazy, because the editing, I also think, is really good. Um, I think, man, pretty much everything about this movie, in my opinion, is just really good. I don't, yeah, yeah, the score, yes, you wouldn't really even call it music, I guess, for most of it, but yes, everything was perfectly effective. Oh God, the lighting, just, it's so good, the writing, and it's one of those movies where I don't know that anyone should like win an Oscar for any of the performances necessarily, but like something like the overall movie should win something.

And this guy, since he is the movie, pretty much should win something in my opinion. But that feeling of like, rather than Star Wars, Grogu and Jabba the fucking Hutt or whatever, which look, no offense, but it's like, we've had enough. We've had Enough. I'm not a

0:15:08 Lydia: All of our avocado toast. Mm mm. Mm hm. Yeah oh the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles though like

0:15:12 Thomas: Star Wars hater, but at some point it's enough, right? Like at a certain point, okay, we're done. We've done this. We're done? Did we do it? It feels like maybe we're going to break out of the stranglehold of nostalgia that millennials have, you know, for all the articles we got subject to in 2008 and nine and 10 about millennials are ruining the, this is long enough ago now that, oh my God, we, it was dealt like 10 years. It was probably like four years.

I don't know. You know, it could have been longer of millennials are ruining this or millennials are ruining that. And it would just be because like we had no money and didn't buy something.

And then the boomers and the Gen X or whatever would be like, shit, they're ruining this industry or whatever, and you know, that wasn't deserved, but one thing that I do feel like is perhaps, and this is not any intentional thing by anyone, but millennial nostalgia took over the market for, I want to say, at least 16 years of just like, hey, remember this from when you're a kid, we're doing it again, we're doing it, and it's good, and a lot of it was good, like it, they were putting putting effort and talent into it. And they made a lot of good movies, a lot, a lot of bad movies, lot of, lot, you know, really run of the mill. Oh, that's

0:16:29 Lydia: Like that was super good. It's just such a mix. Yeah. Right. Yeah, right. See if they can. Yeah

0:16:29 Thomas: Really good. It's, it's a fine line. Yeah. I'm not saying none of that should ever exist, but like, it would be nice if it was like, all right, the three or four good ones instead of literally every movie was a sequel for like ever. And so it is nice. It feels like with how much money this made and with how How much also the multiplier of the money, the fact that like it's all profit. I do wonder if this will set off a cascade of studios trying to because that's always what happens. They're always like catching up and try to do the thing that just happened again. And I wonder if they're going to hire a bunch of like very low budget YouTubers to try to, you know. Yeah.

0:17:06 Lydia: Recreate the magic. Yeah mm-hmm. Yeah yeah. And Lydia perhaps for things she might have missed.

0:17:06 Thomas: I mean, wouldn't be the worst thing. I would say that wouldn't be the worst. But the feeling of like the corporate elite of Hollywood have to like do their once over to make sure it has all the bullshit that they think matters. It's really nice for that to not be what happened and for the market to overwhelmingly be like, oh, wow, this is great. You know, that rules. And so if they want to like copy that in some way, that'd be great.

I feel like they won't. I like make a bunch of crap, but that's, that's just such a cool part of it. It's just so cool to see this 26 year old guy make a movie. And it's such a, like, I don't know how to say this, but there's no, it's not gimmicky. It'S like, it'S just genuinely good. You know, it'd be one thing if it's like, oh, okay, well you kind of scored a, you know, like got lucky or something.

It'S not that like, this is just good in every single way. So it's just really cool. But enough About that. I think we should talk about the actual movie. So, all right, this movie is called Obsession, just to go through it for the people who, I guess, are not going to see it but want to still participate in the conversation. Yeah, so it's this main character who is, you wouldn't say he's like an incel type by any means, you, I guess you would say he was what, the more the nice guy archetype a little bit. Yeah, a little bit like friend-zoned, a nice guy thing, I mean, the main

0:18:26 Lydia: Like kind of meek. Yeah and his parents named him Bear and that. Oh okay. Oh my gosh. Kind of

0:18:31 Thomas: Plot is like he's trying to confess his feelings to his longtime friend. Bear is his real name, but yeah, they said, she actually said it, I actually, I'm such an idiot, I heard like, oh, Bear, like, I don't know why I was like, it was like, like the Lord of the Rings, I was like, what, I think I was just so, my brain, a lot was happening when I was watching this. Yeah, it's like, did they say

0:18:55 Lydia: Of broken yeah yeah oh interesting but but he goes by bear so b-e-a-r man or the bear yeah

0:18:57 Thomas: Baron, like Baron, but it's, no, it's like Barron, like Trump. Yeah, and right away people were pointing out, I saw one review that was like, right when I saw the guy's name was Bear, I knew it was going to be woke bullshit because of the man bear thing. Yeah, and I I, that wouldn't have occurred to me, but the apparently the director said, oh shit, I should have thought of that, like that wasn't the intention. I don't know how much detail we need to go into, but um, let's see, I don't think we're attempting like a scene by scene or anything, but broadly speaking, he ends up with a tchotchke

0:19:28 Lydia: Yeah, yes, Zoltar speaks, exactly. Oh yeah, like what? Okay, yeah, yeah, complaining about it

0:19:32 Thomas: That is a delightful thing called a One Wish Willow novelty toy, is very, uh, big, it has, and, and there's a man, parts of this movie are really funny too, but like I wasn't laughing out loud, but I was like, God, that's funny, and now I'm laughing thinking about it when he goes back into the shop, it's so fucking funny, God, anyway. He has, he buys this toy, he was there to buy her like a crystal because she's into crystals and they couldn't find it, so he sees this One Wish Willow thing is like, ah, maybe I'll do this.

And it's so, it's so perfect. It's so funny because the way that the person working there, she's like, oh, well, you know, we get a lot of people coming back or whatever. And, and they play it so perfectly because I believe the goal was to leave it genuinely ambiguous, but he's like, oh, you're doing that bit where it's like people do they come back because they got their wish or because this doesn't work and there's no, you know, it's not real because obviously it says like you can make a wish and it'll come true. And there's a sense in which it's like all right, that's silly. But then the way she I I don't know. I love that whole scene because she's like, kind of leaves it totally ambiguous. You could kind of take it either way. Yeah. But he thinks she's joking. Like he's like it's really

0:20:10 Lydia: Make they feel scammed. Yeah, until she says, "or they're, you know, dead or dying."

0:20:37 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, yep, she explicitly says, "Now's the time if you have feelings for me. Now's

0:20:40 Thomas: Well done. I like it. And so in a crucial scene, he's dropping her off. He failed to tell her about his feelings. There's a lot of interesting stuff that we're skipping over, but he has a real chance. I think there's a pivotal thing to talk about. He has a chance to tell her about his real chance to tell her how he feels because she even asks him and he's been all he's he's been doing was trying to find a time, a place, a way to say, yes, I have feelings for you. And he can't do it. He says, you know, we're great friends. And then she turns around. And so in that state of being super embarrassed about it, that, and just frustrated with himself, I guess he cracks open this wish thing and he wishes that she would love him more than anyone in the fucking world or something. I think is what he says, something like that. And of course, cause we're watching a horror movie, the wish comes true. And I, I fucking love this movie so much.

Actually, the more I think about it, like I get, I get chills thinking about it in a good way because the horror of the movie is entirely, I mean, there is some, obviously there's some gruesome stuff later on, but mostly the horror is it's loss of autonomy, but it's also, it's, it's a person, not just not acting like a person.

Like really, like when you come down to it, someone has intervened in someone's will and brain and free will or whatever, and imposed what they wanted on them. And that creates such an interesting, interesting thing. Because the first thing that happens is she's just outside the door standing there because it's dark and you can't really see. And after he makes the wish, she's just there. And he's like, what the fuck? And all she's doing is standing.

She's not doing anything directly scary, but it's just that people don't do that. You know, like it's just instantly or if they do, they would be disturbed or there'd be somebody, you know, obsessed with you. And she wasn't. Five seconds ago, she wasn't. So like so much of the horror, there is stuff added in. There's stuff that's done, I think, a little bit that doesn't entirely make sense with the film, but is done for to be scary. Not like excessively so.

But for the most part, like one of the fuck. Yeah. Oh, my God. So unsettling. Like there's a scene later where he's talking to his friend and you can see her in the distant background just looking with her head turned at them. You can't. It's not in focus. So you can only just see enough that her head is facing them the entire time. They talk for like three minutes and that's interesting.

0:21:04 Lydia: The time to tell me." Yeah, yeah, unsettling. Yeah. Oh yeah, and every time the camera goes back to The friend where you can see her in the background and stuff. I was waiting every single time the camera switched. I was like, now's time, she's gonna be closer. Now's a time. Like, there's gonna gonna be a jump scare. Now's the time. Like, the entire time I was just waiting for that because I just felt like just really anxious about it. I didn't like it at all, and I thought it was going to be building up to something like that, and I think it was even more disturbing that it didn't result in anything like that. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, out of focus. Mm-hmm. Right, right, yeah.

0:23:31 Thomas: Yeah. Well, because the one friend is looking in her direction, the main character, his back is to her. And then the other friend is kind of looking in our direction, but it's played as though he doesn't see it. So maybe she's like behind his head, you know, kind of thing. Like maybe he doesn'T have direct line of sight because of the main characters head is in the way. That's what it seems like to me.

But to us the camera view is a little bit to the side, so we see the whole time. Now I never thought that she was gonna get closer at all, because that wouldn't make sense, because he would, the other guy would see, but it was just disturbing because people don't do that. I love stuff like that. Like the whole power of the scene is literally just someone's head turned. That's it. Yeah, and but like it does not move. Like she does not break focus at all. There's not, she's not doing other human Like when someone who's in their right mind, even if you're really trying to sneak a look, even if you are trying to look to someone or at someone to an uncomfortable degree, you're still like, "Oh, looking."

Oh, hi, hi. How are you doing? Looking, you know, you are still acting in that way. Like, even you were being awkward about it, it still has that humanity of like, you kind of trying to get away with it. And that's at least comforting psychologically because that signals like, even Even if someone were trying to look at you too much, the fact that they're trying to get away with it signals that they are responsive to social something, you know, like they at

0:24:51 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Yeah, no, I don't think she did. I think I mean, I could see a world in which

0:24:53 Thomas: Least are responsive. Responsive to social pressure enough to not be just directly doing this, to see somebody just, nope, her, her head is just turned looking the whole time is just so fucking creepy. I love it. Absolutely love it, so there's a lot of really important things to talk about in terms of the, I don't know, gender dynamic of it. I don't know if it's, because here's the thing, the main character is the fucking villain. He is the worst. He is a bad guy and the problem with the movie. But some people don't see this. What was your opinion about do you think pre wish she liked him? Oh, interesting. Hmm. Hmm hmm. Yeah, it's unclear if that's a reliable narrator. But yeah, I think that that's probably right. And that's what I would have thought.

0:25:33 Lydia: Had he been more forthcoming about his feelings, maybe that would have done something. But I don't know, I think he is who he is. And I think that she just wasn't interested in that. I mean, the, we find out during the movie that she's been sleeping with his best friend for weeks. I think if, if she liked him at all, I really don't think that would have been happening. I don't think that was there. I think she knew that he liked her and, honestly, like, probably enjoyed it to a certain extent. Feels good to be liked. But I really don't think it was reciprocated in that way. And we learn in the movie that she specifically tells one of the people in their friend group, Sarah, that she thinks of him as a brother. Sure. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah, I agree.

0:26:20 Thomas: Lot. But I sort of think now it's possible they were going for it being a little ambiguous because she does have the line that they put in there for a reason. Hey, when I like somebody, nobody knows. Like she says, like, when I like somebody, like nobody can tell, nobody can find out about it. There's a lot of lines that are like, you're the only one I can talk to about this. Now, again, I'm saying it's ambiguous. I'm not saying that means, Here's what I think. I think they at least were going for like, if he had just been honest and forthcoming about his feelings, it wouldn't have been like a gross rejection. Yeah, like they, like she cares about him. Maybe there's a chance.

0:26:53 Lydia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, she says, ew, no. Yeah? Ew, why'd you say that? Right. Yeah.

0:26:56 Thomas: Like there's enough lines in there that it's like, you never know. I would put it like 80-20, probably a no, but like, you know, maybe if he was able to express his feelings and kind of be the best version of himself around her, you know, in a way, like, maybe, you know. And I do think some amount of that was intentional, because I also think it makes it better. Like, I think it make it better if it's ambiguous, because that makes it so much more tragic that he probably could have just been a person and pursued it like a normal person.

I think it makes him even more of a villain in a way. I could be wrong about that, but that's kind of my read on it. I, I think there's definitely stuff to indicate she didn't like him. Like when they first are going to get into the car, the guy makes a comment and she's like, ew, like not like that, you know, kind of thing. But there's also stuff that kind of goes the other way in the car. And there's, it's interesting.

Point is, I think at the very least we're agreed that she wouldn't have been like, you're disgusted. It wouldn't have been that kind of rejection. It would have been probably a more caring discussion about it, I think so. Bear, the main character guy, as much as we're living in a world in which magic apparently exists and this can happen, he should instantly know something's wrong, and he, I think he does, and he tries to

0:28:06 Lydia: Even as things escalate. Loves him more than anything in the world. Yep. Mmhmm. She's clearly

0:28:07 Thomas: Convince himself that there's nothing wrong. Yeah. Now we have a very interesting thing where Nikki is now a being of some kind that, not exactly herself, whose only mental state is that she is obsessed with him. And so she's going to kind of say whatever. So she kind of latches onto what he suspected was like, oh, maybe she was on drugs. Maybe she was on something. And I think she latches onto that and lies and said she was on MDMA. And I think he accepts that way too fast. And obviously I think he's in denial, so it becomes this interesting dynamic where his denial that something is wrong becomes abuse, even though she's the one who in the movie is the horror. Like she's like, you're just, it's horror. Like literally, she's horrifying. Like she's scary. It's him that's actually, by denying that anything is wrong and trying to pretend like this is some organic thing, he is taking advantage of her in a horrible way. Yeah. Here's the first interesting misconception that I want to talk

0:29:04 Lydia: Not herself, scene after scene after scene, even around friends and stuff like that, and he continually just makes excuses to try and convince everybody else and keep trying to convince himself that it's fine. Mm hmm. Mm Hmm. Right? Mm hmm

0:29:19 Thomas: Because a lot of people refer to her as demon Nikki. And there's a lot of people who are like, yeah, well, clearly that's some kind of like demon thing, which to be fair ish is a horror movie thing. You know, like that's a, Oh, the person, the loved one's been replaced with a demon or it's a possession or it says something like that. And there are things she does that like, it does seem like it's not Nikki.

So I don't a hundred percent blame people, but it's really interesting because the pushback and the director, I think is pretty clear about this. It's not a demon. And I think why this is so interesting is if people do that, if people want to say like, oh, well, you know, he made this wish and it conjured this kind of demon thing.

It really takes all the focus off of what he's doing and puts it on like a paranormal thingy when really the horror and what's creating this monstrosity is him imposing his will on her in a way that her brain does not accept. So the only way for the wish to work is for some serious

0:30:19 Lydia: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, his will is what's doing it. Mm hmm, mm hmm. Oh, yeah.

0:30:20 Thomas: Rejection of the prior Nikki to happen, which was what I love about this so much. There's the classic old sitcom-y whatever, you know, I've never seen an episode of Bewitched, but I have to imagine this happened. There was like, oh, the love potion, whatever thing, you know, like there's a classic trope and it's usually portrayed pretty harmlessly, you know, and it is crazy to actually think about that. Like when you get right down to it, is that really just the same as raping someone?

Like if you're, if you are wishing, now he He didn't obviously know that this magic existed. So I don't think you can blame him for like the first wish he makes. But like once you know something's up, then you really are like — it's like you got someone way too drunk or something. Like it's not any different than that. I love that this movie takes that on. It's like, no, not only that, but it's a horror show.

It's truly, actually horrifying to have someone only be obsessed, like just completely obsessed with you to the point where people want to call it a demon, but the wish, what he's doing creates this demonic behavior, not an actual demon and the clash with her person. Like she can't, you know, who knows what the rules of this crap are. And I think it's better to say the less about it as a filmmaker, as a writer, like the less you say the better.

And I don't think he has like a thought out system of how this works, but like you can kind of imagine if she didn't actually love him or at least to that degree, then it sort of has to like create a different creature within her in a way that to pull that off is a kind of a way it could go. The other thing that's really interesting is people referring to this as a monkey's paw.

Now, some of this, you can't really blame people because he said he got the idea from seeing the monkey's paw episode of The Simpsons, which was on like, he was waiting to watch his role he got on It's Always Sunny. And the show before it was that Simpson's episode. And he said like, that's where he got the idea. But as much as he got the idea for it to be a monkey's paw, it is not a monkey spot and it's very important that it's not. And the monkey's paw. I mean, do you know what that is? Actually, I'm realizing. Oh, that's so funny. What is it? Go. Don't know. That's so interesting.

0:32:26 Lydia: I've heard the phrase and I think once you tell me I'll be like, oh, yeah, but I wouldn't be able to sit here and define it for you. Don't know. Is it like a lucky sort of

0:32:36 Thomas: So the monkey's paw grants the wishes, but there's always a downside. There's always like a bad, and it's not just like, that's just the thing they did. Yeah. In the Simpsons, I actually haven't seen whatever the origination, I've only seen the Simpsons version of it, but it's a literal like dried out monkey's paw that has like holding up three fingers. And when you make a wish, it puts the finger down to show how many are left. It's really creepy. I've always seen the Simpsons version. It'd be funny.

0:32:38 Lydia: Thing? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. But why is it monkey's paw? It's just like, that's the thing that they did for the first time. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, just messes with him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Yeah.

0:33:06 Thomas: I don't know what the original conception of that is, if it's something else, but the monkey's paw means any wish you make with the monkey's paw, there's some downside you don't foresee. And it ultimately is a curse. Like the whole gimmick of it is it pretends to be a thing that grants you wishes, but actually it's a curse like you just do not want to do it. You can't there's no such thing as a wish on the monkey's paw that is good.

It always is bad because it's accursed item. It's like meant to be that way. And that's important. So importantly, though, though, and I love this. This is not that. And there's some people who interpret it that way. Oh, it's the monkey's paw situation where you wish someone love you, but now there's this downside of like what it makes. And the director very intentionally is like, no, that's not it. His wish is the bad thing.

And, uh, the reason I am so confident about this is not only does he kind of say that the movie says it because there's a great scene. Okay. The thing I mentioned earlier at a certain point, he tries to go back to the store to buy another one. Cause he's like, oh, oh, I'm just going to undo it. Ignoring the fact the rules were, you know, it's literally called a one-wish willow. And God is so funny.

He goes in there and I almost said it to you, like in the theater, like, oh my God, they're doing big. They're doing Big. He goes into the shop and he looks at the window plate or the display place where they were. He's like, where are the one-wish willows? And the guy is like, what, what are you talking about? He's just messing with him. He's not, he's like what? I don't know. I've never heard of that. And he's just like, ah, just kidding. Getting there, right?

He just moved. It's such a good joke. And it's even funnier because of what the guy says next, which he wants to undo his wish, but the guy's like, Hey man, it doesn't work like that. Like you use your one wish, you use Your One Wish. And so he asked him, he's like can you undo my wish? And that storekeeper guy says, no, I already used mine, which is very intentional because he's fine. There's no curse that happened to that guy.

And then later what what happens is he tries to convince the friend that it's real. And the friend is like, obviously not having it, which I also love. And he's like, no, you have to undo my wish. You have to do my wish. Please undo my wish. Also that friend, he basically is calling bear out on his shit and saying, you're taking advantage of her. Like whatever this is, like something's wrong.

0:35:17 Lydia: Something's wrong with her. And, yeah, yeah. So I have a question for you. The whole thing was very

0:35:19 Thomas: You're being abusive. Like, this is not good. I love that. And, and he's, like, all right, it's not real. It's not really. He's like I wish for a billion dollars and like money just starts raining down on them. And there's no downside to it. I think it's very intentionally, literally, he just gets a billion dollars. There's no curse. There's no whatever. Now, ultimately, Nicky does kill him, but that's unrelated to the wish.

So it's very importante to the story and to the message of the film that it is this guy's wish that is the issue. It's not monkey's paw. It's not that, oh, he couldn't have foreseen that. You could wish for stuff that would be fine. But it's the fact that this nice guy archetype wished for something that truly, and again, Again, he didn't know he was doing it at the time.

Wish for something that fundamentally alters someone's, it counteracts their free will in a way that is horrifying when you think about it. Like it's just, it's the kind of thing that is a trope all the time, but I love when someone decides like, okay, but what if we took that seriously? Like, what if you actually, what have you actually did that? Like, it'd be fucking horrifying. You know, I love that.

Those are the main ways people get it wrong, which is for one, she's a demon for two. It's a monkey's paw. Some of those are also related, like the monkey's paw drawback would be that she would have to be replaced by a demon in order for it to happen. And those aren't true. It's just so, so interesting.

0:36:47 Thomas: Yeah, it really was.

0:36:48 Lydia: Unsettling, just all of it, all of It was just so terrible, and I agree that, like, he's taking taking advantage of what appears to be, to anyone who doesn't know what's going on, someone who's really going through something. And I mean, she is going through something. But us being the audience, we also witnessed those interactions in the bedroom and stuff.

And there were times where he would try to distance and he would would try to sleep somewhere else and she would be insistent and unsettling and creepy, and I guess my question for you would be, like, like, what, how would you, what's the right way to deal with that Like, if that happened in real life, and obviously it wouldn't, but like, if I'm putting myself in his shoes for a little bit, I still think he's the antagonist a hundred percent, but if I were to put myself in his shoes with how much he struggled expressing his feelings to begin with, if he feels like that insane amount of pressure coming from the other side, especially from somebody that, like, he's always really wanted to be with, oh man, like, saying no to someone who seems scary, I don't know.

0:37:02 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

0:37:18 Thomas: Mm-mm. Mm-mmm.

0:37:29 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:37:57 Lydia: Yeah, but that's a, that's tough spot for him to be in too, I guess. What, what are your feelings about that? Yeah, yeah, right. Oh, cool. Well, he, and he answers like, like, he's just someone with a phone

0:37:58 Thomas: I think this is great because I think let's talk about the crux of the matter, why he is the ultimate villain. The main thing, the main part where everybody online, when I see them say like, here's when I was certain he's the bad guy. He calls. It's so good. There's a, there's a customer service number on the box. Ah, it's so fucking good. And the call, the person that answers is actually Curry. That's kind of cool. He plays that role and it's just, it'S so good! I don't even know what the point of this customer service line. Yeah.

0:38:35 Lydia: Like, like, not, yeah, he's like, hello, who's this? Yeah, right, right, right. Her being in love with him

0:38:35 Thomas: He's like, hello. It's like, hi, what's up? Yeah, so weird. So weird. I love it because it's this weird absurdism that also is horror, like absurdist horror, and there's an important part where he says, "So you want to take back your wish?" And he goes, "No, I just want to modify it." And that's not the only, like, it's already clear, but that's the gut punch where it's like he's okay with her being in love with him. Yeah, he's okay with him having forced her against her will to be with him, as long as she can be a little chill about it. Yeah, that's entirely it. She has to not do weird things, and then he'll, he'll be fine with it. Yep, yep, yeah. Like, maybe

0:39:00 Lydia: Right. As long as, long, she doesn't do the weird things. Yeah. Or move creepy. I think that was another thing that, like, he really didn't like, and I did not like it either, so I get it.

0:39:23 Thomas: Because we live in a world where there's no magic, maybe you take a second to, to connect that, because there's no magic in this world, it'd take a lot to be like, you know, yeah, I could maybe forgive the first bit where it's like, oh, maybe I don't know, maybe she does have, but like once she's, you know, going full, this is fucking crazy in order to try to get into his house, like early on she says, "I, I just, I can't be alone. It's just my dad. My dad's dying." And it's unclear whether or not Bear knows this, but she's estranged from her dad. So there's some people who are saying like, yeah, he didn't even know that. And that's a sign that he didn't, he just wants her in a superficial way. You know, I think he does know that actually. Yeah.

0:39:31 Lydia: Yeah, right. Yeah, right. I feel like he knows because he's known her as long long as the other friends have known her, and they both know that she's estranged from her dad

0:40:05 Thomas: I think He knows that, but is trying to convince himself that, oh, but it's still going to affect her. Then you find out she was lying about that. And that's horrifying. So, so creepy. Yep. I'm trying not to trigger Lydia as much as I can. So it's that sense where he is willfully looking past it, and the part where he's like, no, just modify the wish, is really where it's like, okay, come on then. He said like, all right, fine, can I undo my wish? And the guy's like, nah, it doesn't work like that. He's like, why did you just make it sound like you could? So fantastic. There's a minor

0:40:10 Lydia: Right, right. Yeah. God, I hate that. Yeah, thank you.

0:40:32 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. When the headboard was moving a bunch, that scene, I, like, saw it, but I wanted it

0:40:44 Thomas: Detail that I thought was really interesting. Do you remember when they were having sex, was that all, maybe all you could see through your, so I think it's really interesting and it stuck with me where they're doing the thing where he's on top of her and he's not looking at her. So she's making sounds like she's enjoying it, but she has like this expressionless face. What did you make of that? I'm curious. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's what it is. And I saw some people theorizing that

0:40:54 Lydia: To be over. So yeah, but she looks detached the entire time. Yep. I think because it's not necessary for intimacy for Nikki as Nikki is now, like she's doing this for him because she loves him more than anything in the entire world, but it's not for her pleasure. She's everything she's doing is just for him, to please him. No, I don't think so. She doesn't need it

0:41:32 Thomas: It's like, oh, she can drop the act because he can't see her. And actually, I don't think it's a deceptive thing because I kept nagging at me. I was like, it doesn't really fit in a way with what's going on because you would think like, Oh, if someone's obsessed with someone, they'd be really enjoying having sex with him. But I totally agree with you.

I was just curious if we'd be at the same place where it occurred to me that like, she's obsessed to the point where she doesn't feel any pleasure, like enjoying sex for her is it? Well, maybe, but I think of it in a darker way. Like that doesn't do anything for her. That would be for her and she doesn't care about her. She cares about him. All she cares about is being in love with him and wanting him.

Enjoying sex with someone you love is part of that in a real relationship, but it's also like for her, she's sort of a facsimile of a person. She's, her one job is love this guy so much, and her feeling pleasure out of sex, I think largely agree, I guess. It feels a little bit slightly different in my head, but I can't articulate exactly why. It almost feels darker to me, almost like if one day you lost the ability to taste food or something. It feels more like, like if I were to kind of try to put

0:42:37 Lydia: You'd eat for sustenance but you wouldn't care, right? Yeah, it's a different read. Yeah.

0:42:39 Thomas: Into words, it feels like that. Yeah, it's really sad in my opinion. It's like horrifying and sad. Like, she's not even getting anything. Like the thing that she's addicted to doesn't even give her anything. It doesn't even give her any pleasure in a way. But it's not, I don't think it's a deceptive thing, because it reads like the classic trope of, like, oh, this kind of clueless guy and she's just faking it for him in a way that if that scene were normal people in a movie, that's kind of like her being disdainful in a, that's her being like, all right, let's get this over with. Yeah, and

0:43:12 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's how I felt too. A hundred percent. If that's the way for it to stop,

0:43:12 Thomas: And what's interesting is I think people kind of still read it that way from what I'm seeing a little bit, but I actually think it's a little more subtle, which is what we're saying, which is like, she wants him to probably enjoy it, but it's also just her enjoyment doesn't exist. Like it's just not even anything. And I just thought that was so fascinating. It's just another element of just really well done horror story. Oh, but to answer your question, I started to answer, there was a time, the first time, it must've been when he called the support. Can't remember like how early that was. It feels like it was not early, but I guess not super late in the process when he called the customer support. Because the customer support guy ends up saying, I mean, you could kill yourself. He's like, what? He's, like, yeah, I, mean, if you kill yourself, then the wish ends. I almost said to you, like well, guess I'm killing myself. Like you and I would kill ourselves that second.

0:44:02 Lydia: Then I'm stopping it. Yeah, yeah. And I don't want to live in this anymore and no one else

0:44:02 Thomas: Yeah, that's like a, well, this one's on me. Sorry, buddy. Fuck. I didn't know what I was doing, but it seems as though something I did caused a horror film to happen. And that's not okay. Because part of me did have the feeling, and I don't think they could have or really should have explored this, but my feeling was like, okay, what would you do? I had that same thought. Wouldn't you go to the police and be like, hey, there's this fucking crazy lady, man. She's really, she's crazy. Yeah. But he doesn't want to because he wants the stuff he wants without any of the bad side. Yeah, exactly. And that's what makes him really despicable character in the end. There's even a worse part where she She kind of cries out to him. This part of it is confusing to me. I'm like trying to make sense of it, but I don't know, maybe it doesn't need to make sense. I don't totally know how she's both not possessed, but it's also there's a real her. Yeah.

0:44:18 Lydia: Should have to live this anymore. Goodbye. Yeah? Maybe at some point. Yeah I think that would be a smart thing to do. Yeah he wants the good stuff. Yeah there's moments where it drops. Yeah and it happens a couple times in the movie. No yeah it does. It does. Yeah she comes through. Yeah it's

0:44:57 Thomas: Well, it doesn't, but it doesn't drop though. Well, okay. It kind of does. Sorry. It kind of does. Yes. But in the, in the scene you're talking about where Nikki's asleep and real Nikki is like, don'T wake her up. You know, it's like very much two different entities. Yeah.

0:45:10 Lydia: It's like a consciousness thing, kind of thing. Yeah.

0:45:12 Thomas: He did say one of his inspirations or reference, like one of the things they watched was get out and I'm wondering if it's in that sense, but even in Get Out, the people who take over people's bodies, that is another person in there. And I don't think like from everything I'm seeing, it's not supposed to be like another person. So it's a little interesting. It doesn't totally seem consistent. But anyway, point is when she cries out and she says, kill me, she literally just says, "Kill me." Yeah. Oh, it's so bad. So she says, "Kill me." And he's like, "Is it really

0:45:12 Lydia: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they have a full conversation where he's like, he's hearing her express her wants and needs in that moment. And he just walks away. Yeah.

0:45:49 Thomas: So bad to be with me?" And she's like, "I haven't been with you." It's like, and for him to just have that, him be the victim of that interaction. A lot of people online, well, that's when, "Fuck him," like, for sure. And I think before that, but like, that's what a lot people were like, "Okay, for sure, fuck him," because like he turned this literal, like, this is the most horrifying thing you could imagine and he's like, "It's so bad with me that you want to kill yourself or whatever, you want me to kill you." So yeah, no, he's bad and he's a bad guy. But I had the thought of like, would you get her committed or whatever? Would you try to like, hey, this person needs psychiatric help. But when you imagine that, it's like based on the rules of this world, she's just institutional. She's unable to live in a normal state.

0:45:51 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:46:03 Lydia: Oh, it's that kind of guy. Yeah.

0:46:24 Lydia: Yeah. Right.

0:46:34 Thomas: Date. So you're condemning someone to probably die eventually, but even if not die, it's almost worse. Condemning someone to like, well, it is basically every single time you leave your dog at home. You are condemning somebody to live the horror that is every time you could leave and your dog is at home, which is why this is, see, this is why I am not a dog person. Dogs are Nikki and everyone loves it. They are all like, "Yeah, I love that I have a Nikki who literally when you you leave stands in place and pees herself like a dog would do waiting for you to get home." It just

0:46:37 Lydia: Mm-mm.

0:46:54 Lydia: Yeah. There you go.

0:47:04 Lydia: Yeah. Waiting for you to get home. Wow. You solved it.

0:47:12 Thomas: Occurred to me now. I'm uncomfortable with, look, dogs are great. It's not the dog's fault. It'S not Nikki's fault, but it's a little bit horrifying. I hope that dogs can get distracted easily. And I think they can, so that they're not just there wanting you all the time, because they create this like infinite love machine that is just evolutionarily bred to love you. And every time time you leave, it's probably like dying inside. I hate it. I don't like it. Fortunately, our dog doesn't like us that much. I think, I think we have the right amount of dog. We have a dog that's like, well, and she just, the next person she sees, she's like, this person fucking rules too.

0:47:12 Lydia: Oh, my gosh. Right. Yeah.

0:47:40 Lydia: She has a very secure attachment style. Yeah.

0:47:48 Thomas: God, you all rule. Are you all this great? Yeah. Which is crazy. But anyway, you're condemning someone like I could never live with that. So like, obviously you kill yourself. Like it's not even, it'S not even a discussion. Maybe you try, okay, can I get someone to undo the wish? I

0:47:48 Lydia: Yeah. Wow. Humankind. It is crazy. Mm-hmm. What do you think of like if he just drove away and lived somewhere else and just like

0:48:02 Thomas: I suppose that's, you know, worth trying if you can. You do it a lot earlier than he did. That's the same as getting her committed because she can't exist.

0:48:10 Lydia: Started a new life? Okay. What do YOU think she would do in that situation that which she would just try and find him?

0:48:13 Thomas: She can only try to get him. She would only try again forever. And because her behavior would be so erratic, she would eventually get picked up by police or something and she would be committed. It'd be the same ending. It's just an indirect way, I think. Or she'd, you don't know, die somehow. But like either way, it's not good. What's interesting is I heard an interview where he talked about he kept getting the note. Why doesn't he do more to like figure it out? Why isn't he trying to fix it? I think that was it. Like, why isn't he trying to fix it? And what I love and what makes this guy a genius, at least in terms of this, is what he decided to do was he was like, OK, I'm not doing that.

0:48:19 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Mm. Mm.

0:48:47 Thomas: Why don't we show why he doesn't want to fix it more? And so that apparently was the reshoot of the scene where she has cut his hair in the night. And in the morning, he's like, hey, don't do that. It's like what we said, like, stop the weird stuff. Stop the weird step. And that's more of what tells me this is a very, very deliberate choice, that this guy is the bad guy. The director was like, and the writer, director and writer was like, "Okay, if people are having that issue, I need to not, I'm not going to have him try to solve it. That's not the answer. I'm going to show why he doesn't want to fix it."

0:48:51 Lydia: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right.

0:49:20 Thomas: And that's what makes him shitty. That's what make him the villain of the thing. And I just love that so much. I think it's interesting too, because maybe that's like the good version of feedback. Like, because if it's the fucking corporate whatever on top guy being like, "No, show him trying to solve more, you know, and there's no ifs, ands, or buts," that's one thing. If it's like audience watching it is a little confused, "Why isn't he trying to fix it more?"

And you take that as good feedback, like, "Okay, I need to make this a little more clear," yeah, in a way that enhanced it and made it better, I think that's really interesting, but it also shows the intention of this. Seriously, I could just talk about every scene in the movie. Every single scene I could talk about forever, and I was, I was trying to find what to even not talk about, but I think ultimately I just wanted to hit those main themes. I think people are missing how bad of a guy he is, and I think a lot of that is the usual stuff where people don't want to see the dude is the bad guy, you know, and people don't, you

0:49:23 Lydia: Right.

0:49:41 Lydia: I can fill in this blank. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-mm. Yeah.

0:50:12 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. It is interesting because like the woman is doing the action. People like interpret

0:50:13 Thomas: Know, And to the point where some people are just like, man, bitches be crazy. That's the moral lesson of this.

0:50:24 Lydia: That as, oh, so then she's the bad guy. And it's like, well, but she has no agency. So she fundamentally can't be the bad guys. She has not made any of those choices actually for herself, even though she's committing those actions. Can I read to you a quote from a letterboxed

0:50:28 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

0:50:50 Thomas: Now I just want to say other good things real quick as we go. I know you just can't handle the anguish of this and I'm so sorry that you had to watch this movie. I don't think I'll ever be able to ask you to watch anything remotely scary again, just because of how deeply affected you were by this and to a degree that made me really upset from your diary. Oh, yep. Yeah. Send help. Yeah, you know, what's funny is I actually had that feeling when we

0:51:09 Lydia: Entry that resonates with me? It has been over an hour since I got out of the theater for this, and I genuinely still feel a bit nauseous. Torrential stress and fear and twisted comedy and tension beyond belief. I have not felt this way physically after seeing a film in a very long time. Sick to my stomach and sweating. I am fucking disgusting right now. No coherent thoughts. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. The pacing of that was yeah.

0:51:34 Thomas: Watched one battle after another. I had the stress of it. So that movie I told you after, I think they're getting too good, folks. They're getting to making movies because that one I was in a panic attack the whole fucking time, not literally, but like a minor panic, like actual pretty bad anxiety the whole time. The whole time, like they never let up. That was crazy.

And I was like, I've never had the experience where the whole movie was that this was that, but also disturbing in a different way that makes it even worse. It was just horrifying. Oh, God. The lighting. So one thing I did see that I don't know how I feel about this because it doesn't really make sense, but it just adds to how unsettling this is. Did you see how they were doing the Uncanny Valley makeup, apparently?

So when she was in the shadows, they had done Uncanny Valley makeup that actually came from like this TikTok trend from 2023 or something where people were trying to do like makeup that is just Uncanny Valley. Like it just looks like, you know, that unsettling feeling of like, this isn't quite right. You know what the Uncanny Valley is, right?

0:52:17 Lydia: No right right right yeah it's like like a version of a person that's not actually them Mm-hmm. But also not right. Yeah. Oh, God. Yes. Like glowing eyes almost. Yeah? Oh, yeah. No,

0:52:37 Thomas: Yeah. And the key part is something that's super fake. We're fine. Something that's Super Real, we're fine. But something that slightly fake is in that Uncanny Valley. That's why it's called that. It's like the Uncanny Valley that's like too close to real, but not real. Yeah. That's the most disturbing thing to us. And they did that. And that's part of why those in the dark scenes look so crazy and horrifying and unsettling.

Is because if you look at the photos of it, like she has this makeup that it just looks weird. Like it's just, but it's only a little bit off. You know, it's just things are a little bit off in ways that's like, it's another cool part of the art. The lighting guys, the way that it was like, she was in the dark all the time in ways that were like, I don't even know how to explain it.

She was in The Dark, but her eyes were a little bit lit. I wish I had better vocabulary about, you know, I'm not like a major film guy. I really enjoy good stuff, but I don't have the language for it, but it felt different. It felt unique. I haven't seen that before. It would be whole scenes like they were interacting and she was just in that light. Yeah. Like that, that just usually, you know, that might be temporary.

That might be, you go from one thing to the other, but it was just, no, that's the lighting for the whole scene. Oh, I know what I was going to say. You can vouch for this. Jump scares almost never get me. Almost never.

0:53:51 Lydia: It's true. He's incredibly stoic, like throughout all jump scares. It's like his nerves are steel.

0:53:56 Thomas: Yeah. Yep. I, a little bit different now that I'm on meds. I think if I was not on meds, I don't even, maybe this movie wouldn't have even gotten me, but Lydia, on the other hand, I could just say, imagine a jump scare and she'll just jump out of her chair. It's like, but you made it. You did it. Yeah. This one fucking got me.

0:54:02 Lydia: Yeah. I'm literally the opposite. Yeah, I'll watch kids movies and little things will just Jump scare me. Yeah, which one? I was hiding for, yeah. What was it? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh God, oh

0:54:16 Thomas: Did you? I don't, maybe were you too? Yeah. You might've been too horrified to notice. The first major jump scare got me good, like quite well. And I was like, okay, okay. Movie. Oh God. The first time she comes out of it. So the very, in the bed, the very first time. So they're, she, they're kind of making out or something. And she comes up. She comes out for a second. And I just want to talk about this because, again, normally nothing gets me, but instantly I was like, how did they do it? And from my memory, we just, you know, saw this once in the theater, from my memory it was that they had her scream and then the jump scare sound actually came late

0:54:50 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, man, yeah, yeah, totally, action, yeah, yeah, okay. Here was a moment. I mean, it's also

0:54:56 Thomas: It was so unsettling because normally they do the same fucking thing. Oh, everything's quiet. All right, there's gonna be a blah, you know, jump scare. This one, you're anticipating a jump scare and they, they gave you like a first one that was, it was fucking scary. Cause she's like, like she starts screaming and she started screaming. And then a second later, the sound went like really loud. And it was just like the most unsettling thing. I've, I, it was crazy to experience.

Like truly I haven't been got by a jump scare maybe ever to that degree. And It was just because of the, it's so creative. It's just like the difference in for one, that's just such a cool horror.

It's just such a cool horror idea, and for two, the sound design was awesome. It was really loud at times. It had good dynamic range, but not in a bad way that hurt. It was more like, uh, it's getting loud, but it deserved it, you know what I mean? I don't know if that makes sense. Like, most movies are just too fucking loud: the music and the fucking spaceship sounds and the blah blah. It's just like, Jesus Christ, it's too loud. This was like normal movie, normal movie, and then when they earned it, it was like, that's so loud and fucking unsettling to a degree that was, again, just so effective. I mean, there's just so many little moments that I, again, could talk about for hours. So I know this

0:56:09 Thomas: Is just pure misery for you. Was there anything you enjoyed about it, or maybe with the benefit of time? Oh God, so good. Yeah, she made the literal sad face. Yeah, yeah. Oh, so good.

0:56:17 Lydia: Horribly creepy. I'll never get this image out of my head, but it was so well done that her Her sad face was also always so contorted. It was never like just expressing sadness. Yeah, literally like a perfect upside down smile. Like it was just an inverted you. It was insane. And it was just like those moments of this intense version of feeling that wasn't actually like feeling. I don't know. I thought was really well done, but it was very scary.

0:56:50 Thomas: Yeah, that was another reason he sucked so bad, because, like, obviously, I mean, everyone saw that

0:56:51 Lydia: I hated it. I told you I knew there's a car scene, and anytime there's a car scene, I anticipate there's going to be a car accident, something's going to happen. It's too much glass. There's too much glass involved. Yeah. Yeah, what are you doing? Yeah, a

0:57:08 Thomas: Coming. He knows that he has a, not literally but basically, a demon as far as he's concerned, who's, who's already shown violence toward this other girl, is kind of a rival in her mind. And he's going to go just talk to her in a car as though that's going

0:57:20 Lydia: Jealous moment that night, just earlier that evening. Yeah that's a smart move. Yeah selfish. Yep. Yeah

0:57:28 Thomas: To be fine. Yeah. It's like, it's so clueless. It's selfishly clueless to a degree that like you're getting, you got, he did get her killed. It is his fault that this other character dies. Other thing that'll really stay with me. And it's still going to be a lot of fun. It's so hard because I really don't want to like trigger you. But when he tries to get out of the bed and she just yells, stay in such a, it's So good. It's so fucking good. It's just things you don't normally hear. Her tone of voice and the way she yelled, it was just like this pure guttural.

And you know, what's interesting too is it was a deliberate choice that he said he didn't want her to be angry. And I think that came through and was the right choice. Like he said that they wanted her to always seem desperate and kind of sad. Now, obviously she's doing horrifying stuff, but she's not angry about it, which is even more unsettling. And so he starts to leave and she just yells, like in this way, that's like, it's like she's suffering, you know, but it's also so scary. Yeah. Yeah, so good. So good.

0:57:44 Lydia: Yeah yeah exactly. Like it's painful for her.

0:58:28 Lydia: Yeah, I won't be sleeping tonight. Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, yeah. I will say, like, because I think I read

0:58:31 Thomas: Well, this was something. I don't know what it was. I hope people, if you watch the movie, hopefully this was a fun discussion. If you're never going to watch the movie, hopefully this is something. But reading people get this wrong was so interesting. So interesting. What a well-done movie. If You Can Stomach It. Truly, it was unpleasant for me too. Like I actually was in distress the entire time. Like it was not fun. I don't think I'll ever watch it.

I can maybe in like 10 years. This is one I said to you, I was like, I love that movie and I'll never watch it again. And that might be true. It's so, so well done. So well done. Now here's the funny coda to the, my whole like, oh, it's original. It's the next thing he's going to do is the Texas chainsaw massacre 10 or 11. And I don't fucking get it. I don't get why, why he's doing that, but it seems like he got offered that, and he has some, he says he has a way to make it different, but it's like, I don't care. Do one of your things. This is stupid. Yeah

0:59:29 Lydia: That too, and, and it sounds like he's like, the original had some good stuff and then it just kind of got really messy over the years, and so, like, he is not worried about sticking to canon because the canon is all over the place, so he is going to come up with something different. Yeah

0:59:42 Thomas: There's no version of The Texas Chainsaw Massacre that I'm watching, which sucks because I don't care

0:59:46 Lydia: Well, I don't know, maybe it will get 90-something percent and then, then you will end up going

0:59:47 Thomas: You know, I mean, I think even if it did, I won't, I don't, I think, I, yeah, I don't, I don't need a movie that's called The Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I don't need that. I wish he would do something else. He is doing other stuff. He actually has something coming out that he was already working on before this premiered: Anything but Ghosts, which sounds awesome. I can't wait for that, but really cool. And that has Aaron Paul and Bryce Dallas Howard, and it's like this 26-year-old YouTuber is like all of a sudden just directing. Like, imagine that.

He was like, "Yeah, it was weird at first, but then I just got into the, you know, scene. It was fine." But boy, I don't know if I would ever get it. I would be like, "Hi, Aaron Paul and Bryce Dallas Howard." Like, it just, it's so crazy. Anyway, all right, we got to get out of here. I don't know how to end that in a way that will be soothing. Any joke I could make would be triggering. I'm not gonna. I don't want to, don't want to do that. It wasn't real, we're all fine. That would be you, like Lydia, who was subject to this

0:59:51 Lydia: Point, really. Yeah, oh yeah, they're like, buddy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hmm. Yeah, yeah, gonna go put on some Meditation stuff now

1:01:07 Thomas: Wish would be like super nice about it. Then that was the kind of a funny thing. Oh, I was with something I wanted to talk about. I wonder if it was necessarily had to be this, you know, like, because I was thinking of the joke, like, if someone did this wish on me, like, oh, you love this person more than anyone in the fucking world, I don't even know that that would change my behavior all that much. So, like, in a way, maybe she is the villain. I don't know. You know, like, wouldn't you just be like, hey, do come, let's go out sometime, you know? I don't know.