SIO511: What a Recent Chappell Roan Incident Teaches Us About Sexism

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:13 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious and Queer as Only. This is episode 511. I'm Thomas and that over there is Lydia storming the gates again. The SIO.

0:00:20 Lydia: You can't get rid of me. I know I'm here once in a while.

0:00:24 Thomas: Privilege, am I right? Just come over, take over a podcast. God, you've been talking so much too. Ah, she won't stop.

0:00:34 Lydia: Won't shut up. You can't make me.

0:00:35 Thomas: Boy, we're going to lose the audience here. This episode is about sexism. Them I like that we do the little yeah little demonstration like it's a video for like fifth graders or something yeah

0:00:43 Lydia: As demonstrated by. Or like a harassment video. Yeah

0:00:51 Thomas: Yeah exactly yeah we do a lot of those in our spare time I'm very good at them uh I saw this story initially uh know it's been like a month now ish uh and then I the follow-up don't worry we'll tell tell everyone we're talking about in a sec but the follow -up came just a few yeah we're gonna do the whole thing without any of the proper nouns and you gotta figure it out the kind of well final the follow up came a couple days ago I think the final statement that matters and it just was another example of like I I just want every if I could do anything with my platform and with all we've seen with the Blake Lively stuff and like just Just how unquenchable the thirst for hating women is in world online.

0:01:06 Lydia: They have to guess. Mm hmm. Burn them at the stake. It's Always witches.

0:01:38 Thomas: You know, there's different degrees, obviously. I don't think that every single person in their daily life hates women. It's not about that. It's just that, like, a of thoughts in my head. One, it's just this is so clear. And it's something that I just want people to see. I just watch you notice it. Like I always imagine in my head, like the person I'm trying to convince, I guess, of stuff. And I feel like probably most of the audience is likely going to be already on our side.

0:02:03 Thomas: But I'm always thinking of like the first I want to convince you, that person who just like doesn't see kind of the more systemic issues, whether.

0:02:10 Lydia: Name them. I'm just kidding.

0:02:11 Thomas: Yeah, I don't know their name. That's the issue. We don't we sort so much that we don't. You know, that's why I still hang out in that anti-Blake subreddit to try to like talk to people sometimes doesn't

0:02:21 Lydia: I don't know. Yeah, I can't believe you have the stomach for that. Mm hmm.

0:02:23 Thomas: Do anything. Is, I that, we you lost the election in 24 is to be one of the worst things that's ever happened to the entire world. You know, like it's it's up there. I mean, not not yet, but like in terms of like the downstream effects, you Know, it's getting there. It's getting worse and worse. And who knows how bad it'll be. And so much of it just seems like, The stuff we've talked about, they've won on these culture war issues in a lot of ways. I think we're pulling some of that back, but I worry that, again, guy at the top doing stuff that no one likes, and goes away, the problem will still be there. You know what I mean? I don't mean to say that Trump isn't uniquely terrible. He is. But I do think the underlying information environment and biases that we're trying to deal with, like so much of our work is trying to dealing with, we're losing. We need to fight that fight.

0:03:12 Lydia: I think that's also demonstrated by like when you look at voting blocks that were happening during that election, right? Gen Z boys and men, because guess I don't know if Gen Alpha are the boys. Yeah, thank you for that correction on the 90s R &B group. You're right.

0:03:22 Thomas: Boys, two men. Yeah but

0:03:27 Lydia: I have no idea who they are.

0:03:27 Thomas: I've never heard of yeah that's that's why it's a good joke just for you

0:03:32 Lydia: Yeah I appreciate it, obviously. Obviously. But that group overwhelmingly voted for Trump and this idea of traditional masculinity and traditional gender roles. We see it with things like the manosphere and the influence that those characters have over young men and consumption of social media and the way that they go out into the world. So that's going to continue to be a problem. I think we see that beyond what's happening in government you

0:04:00 Thomas: That's kind of a another story as well you know the podcaster bro thing but I even just mean like your I think your average person that you might talk to is if they're not like you know one of the wokest they think they're like generally aware that you know racism and sexism exists and has existed but they're usually very closed off or ignorant of the systemic part I found that's just my personal you know like observation I could be wrong but I feel like the systemic part is where we're losing people like somehow it's not clicking I don't I don' know why and I guess I just want to try to do my small part to try try to point it out. And I just think that it doesn't mean you have to become like some, you know, again, this is my constant message. Doesn't mean You have to be some wokest. You don't have to Be some crazy college kid.

0:04:47 Lydia: Don't have to join the mob yeah

0:04:47 Thomas: Yeah. I mean, we'd like you to, but like, you don't Have to. We need the membership dues. But, it's more about like just it's undeniable when you really start to look at it. And so that's why we're we're going to talk about Chapel Roan, who's Since Ashton Kuchar. Is there a name that I can't spell?

0:04:48 Lydia: We're good time

0:05:04 Thomas: Chapel Roane. Yeah. It, every time it's written, it's this weird, like quantum effect. Someone I should study it. It's the Schrodinger's cat, but certain names Names and words have Schrodinger's number of letters.

0:05:04 Lydia: Really uh

0:05:16 Thomas: So, chaperone on a given day or even like to the second has a different number of P's and L's. Yeah. No, it changes. I guarantee you. Look it up. It changes every time I search it. It's different.

0:05:16 Lydia: -huh no

0:05:29 Thomas: No, that's different?

0:05:26 Lydia: If you are looking at people who don't know how to spell her stage

0:05:31 Thomas: I'm talking about me. I'm dying about every time.

0:05:32 Lydia: Name oh okay I see yes

0:05:33 Thomas: I type it in. My brain goes, no, it was this many last time I saw it. It was, I swear to God, I just saw it and I searched it. Oh, no. It wasn't that many. It was wrong. I was like, pretty certain it was one P two L's. Then I was like, wait a minute. It was one L, one two P's. Think the internet just changes it on me every time I search, like whatever I search. There's some coder back there. Who's, I mean, let's be real. It's AI, but like they're their job is to like, look at how many P's and L's he does. Nope. Sorry. This time three P's four L's, you know, like it just, no matter what I search it's

0:05:34 Lydia: I agree with you yeah yeah

0:06:07 Thomas: Wrong every time

0:06:08 Lydia: It's a Nate Bargatze what it eagle internet yeah they

0:06:10 Thomas: The eagle internet yeah it's it's this is like classic me brain like there is no logical reason for the number of letters like it just there isn't it could be one could be two and like every time I think I have it I don't anyway that's not the point I do think the study scientists should study that because it's very real and I I will not have you gaslighting me the name changes every time I'm telling you somebody somebody Somebody does it. They scrub the internet. They change the Wikipedia every time I search it to whatever I, whatever I didn't search. Yeah.

0:06:26 Lydia: Should study your brain yes hey it's probably Chapel Rones fault actually we should just

0:06:40 Thomas: Cause everything else is. So we're going to talk about Chapel Roan, this incident that happened. Um, a lot of people have a lot of thoughts on Chapel Roans. I figured, you're a big fan, I think. Right.

0:06:40 Lydia: Blame her yeah I

0:06:50 Thomas: And it'd be fun to talk about it. And just to see, if you don't know this story, it'll be fun. To tell if you do know the story, maybe who knows, maybe we'll put a different shine on it, because I just think that if people could just turn on that critical part of their brain to see the systemic crap that happens, I think once you see it, you can't unsee it. Like, it's just nonstop. It's the thing with Blake as well, and Clinton. I mean, that's where I first really, for me personally, that's why I first really started taking notice, where it just seemed like everything counts double, triple, 10 times against women.

0:06:49 Lydia: Am yeah Yeah.

0:07:26 Thomas: And it's the argument we had so many times, or I had, because you weren't even a podcaster back then. But I just had so Many arguments with people where it's like, yeah, I know you can find things that are probably even legitimate that are criticisms of Hillary, of Chaperone, of Blake Lively, whoever. You can always find criticisms. But the thing that I keep finding it so hard to articulate is when you do that, when it's a woman, it counts times 10. And when it's a man, it just doesn't really matter. Like sometimes there'll be things that are bad enough where people hate on men. Sure. But for the most part, when you look at that election you had Hillary Clinton going up against the literal worst candidate for any office ever constructed ever, like the worst person. Yeah.

0:08:09 Lydia: Dog catcher. Like, just the worst.

0:08:11 Thomas: To where it was, it was like the universe trying to make a point, you know, where you're like, oh, well, surely people can't be this sexist, right? And, you know, we can have the arguments, not all sexism. I get a lot of it's politics and a lot of it is that kind of thing. But it's like where the debate really happened, it would constantly point to these little things. Well, she had the emails. It's like, look at any example of what he did. And it doesn't matter, you know?

0:08:34 Lydia: He literally said on tape, we hear it in his voice, his actual voice, grab him by the pussy, right?

0:08:40 Thomas: Yeah.

0:08:40 Lydia: Like, these things that are despicable. And he got elected. That's insane.

0:08:46 Thomas: Three times. I think he won in 2020. I'm actually joining the, yeah.

0:08:49 Lydia: Wow. You're an election denier? I'm learning

0:08:51 Thomas: I'm anti -Trump, but I'm pro -election denial conspiracy.

0:08:53 Lydia: A lot about you today yeah

0:08:56 Thomas: Just because I think it would be good if we could have pulled it off. You know, that'd be better. I'd want to believe that like Joe Biden, a sleepy Joe could have pulled off an election heist, by the way, while Trump was president. That's the hard part. That's part of they don't give sleepy Joe enough credit for. He stole the election under the old administration.

0:09:12 Thomas: Isn't it amazing? What an accomplishment. You know?

0:09:12 Lydia: That is crazy mm -hmm yeah give

0:09:15 Thomas: That's why we should vote for him again. That's what we should go for him. He's fantastic. Don't once you want to elect the guy who's capable of stealing the election rather than the guy at the election stolen from him like like a loser.

0:09:16 Lydia: Him his flowers yeah yeah that's very like John McCain prisoner of war sort of approach you're taking there

0:09:30 Thomas: It's sort of a weird, like reverse psychology. I could almost pull off with Trump supporters if I, if I got to talk to one of them. Oh, you want me to vote for the guy who's such a loser that he was president and couldn't stop the election from being stolen. What an inept baby. He's terrible. I'd rather have the guy that you're telling me Joe Biden, sleepy Joe can steal elections. Holy shit.

0:09:45 Lydia: He able to pull that off while

0:09:50 Thomas: That, you know, what's that smacks to me of leadership. Yeah.

0:09:52 Lydia: Sleeping and eating ice cream

0:09:54 Thomas: That's It's back to me of leadership ability and just know -how and grit. Those are the things I want in my president. Anyway, okay, gone off the rails, but let's take a break. And then we're going to talk about this Chapel Roan story and why the world just a little bit extra or however, I don't know the numbers, but certain percentage, there's multiplier effect on negative things toward women. I don'T know what the ratio is. I 'LL study that and I 'LL study the P's and the L's of Chapel Roans name and I'll get back to you. We'll take a break. Patreon .com slash series pod. If you'd like to support the show, support what we do. We really appreciate it. And thank you so much. And share if you find this valuable.

0:10:41 Thomas: Okay. Well, um, you want to tell it? I mean I, I came to you with this episode, but you're the chapel fan. So you do it. I'm

0:10:48 Lydia: Uh okay so uh 21st an post is created a story where the drama always always begins, basically, right, is Instagram. And this is actually a soccer star named Jorginho, and he posted a story March 21st saying, I went through a very upsetting situation with my family earlier today. My wife, Kat Cavelli, who is an influencer, she was previously married to Jude Law, is in Sao Paulo for Lollapalooza Brazil. This morning, my daughter woke up, and this is his his stepdaughter, Jude Law's daughter, actually, come to find out, woke up incredibly excited. She even made a sign because she was so happy to see an artist she really admires or used to admire. And then he tags in Chapel Run.

0:11:33 Thomas: Or so she thought she

0:11:35 Lydia: Coincidence, they're staying at the same hotel as this artist. During breakfast, the artist walked past their table. My daughter, like any child, recognized her, got excited, and just wanted to make sure it was really her. And the worst part is she didn't even approach her. She simply walked past the singer's table, looked to confirm it was her, smiled, and went back to sit with her mom. She didn't say anything, didn't ask for anything. What happened next was completely disproportionate. A large security guard came over to their table while they were still having breakfast and began speaking in an extremely aggressive manner to both my wife and my daughter, saying that she shouldn't allow my daughter to quote disrespect or quote harass other people. Honestly, I don't know at what point simply walking past a table and looking to see if someone is there can be considered harassment. He even said he would file a complaint against them with the hotel while my 11 -year -old daughter was sitting there in tears. My daughter was extremely shaken and cried a lot. I've lived with football, public exposure, and well -known people for many years, and I understand very well what respect and boundaries are. What happened there was not that. It was just a child admiring someone. Sad to see this kind of treatment coming from those who should understand the importance of fans. At the end of the day,

0:12:00 Thomas: Was shot. Yeah

0:13:06 Lydia: Wow.

0:13:07 Thomas: So pretty uh pretty direct pretty um aggro you know like without in all caps without your fans you'd be nothing and to the fans she does not deserve your affection so yeah obviously so I I think the the context that I think you will be very helpful for is there's is this is a it's not without some context or history of chaperone right I mean she has some sort of reputation oh

0:13:18 Lydia: Blew up, right? Yeah, yes, she does. And, long -standing, too she blew up so fast um essentially catapulted like I remember um I like first heard her it was not super early in her stardom or anything but it really felt like it was in the matter of I don't know a couple weeks her outside lands um this is a San Francisco festival was a couple years ago and they had to move her up to a headliner they had a change stages because it was so full there there were going to be so many people there and she completely filled that space too it was just something where you go back four years maybe and she would be playing probably more intimate venues and stuff she was dropped by her label just you know during covid she had to move back home

0:13:58 Thomas: That's cool wow yeah oh that's right well they were to be fair they were like we can't spell your name it changes we can even we're not even sure we have a legal contract with you to be honest chapelle chapele I who knows no

0:14:23 Lydia: That's why she keeps doing it yeah can't hold her accountable for anything if She keeps changing the spelling of her name.

0:14:30 Thomas: She can get away with anything that's why she thought she could kill this child yeah

0:14:33 Lydia: But just exploded in popularity and became someone that now millions of people were loving her music, having a great time, enjoying her at festivals, at concerts, etc. Very, very viral. She is younger us. She's in her, I want to say, mid -20s. Think she has been trying to establish boundaries, something that the music industry, the film industry, all of these sort of entertainment vehicles have historically not been good at at all. I mean, you look back at the paparazzi antics of the early 2000s and the way that women especially were treated back then. And it's horrific. You Perez Hilton. Right. Pull his name in there. Chapel Roan was trying to make it very clear pretty early on as she was exploding in popularity that that was something she was not interested in. So she has called out paparazzi, you She's called out photographers on red carpets for them as she feels disrespecting her, invading her space, asking her to smile for particular pictures and things of that nature. And she's sort of kind of set that tone where a lot of other women artists have actually been very thankful for the work that she's been doing to do that. To this incident, just a couple days before, I think she also had a run -in with some paparazzi in Paris as well. So I think that sort of helped set maybe the tone a little bit that this wouldn't be something completely unexpected Chappell. That, you know, she has been very clear about if she is not on stage doing press or in drag, then she's not working and she doesn't owe anybody her

0:14:42 Thomas: Incredibly Incredibly viral. Mm hmm. Yeah,

0:16:22 Lydia: Time or her attention. She's just a person. Right. And she deserves that that in that space. So when I first heard this story, I just kind of assumed what he said was what happened.

0:16:33 Thomas: That was true. Yeah. Yeah yeah

0:16:35 Lydia: And I didn't blame her. I was like, yeah, that kind of tracks, you know.

0:16:39 Thomas: When I first read it I was like for one I remembered that you'd kind of mentioned this about Chapel Roan and her you know wanting more privacy and stuff and everything you just said and it's totally totally valid. Valid I did start seeing stuff and this is why you can never be sure because you start seeing these negative things way back when I did see or say something I thought was politically pretty stupid it was really both sidesy uh that I know that a lot of the trans community was like dude you literally like dress in drag for a living and then you're not not like supporting kamala for president like or something like it it sucked yeah whatever that was kind of sucked um you know it's like it's the kind of thing where I always try to keep Keep in mind, how mad should any of us be about a celebrity saying kind of a dumb political thing when it's a dude? How much do you care about it? How much does it sit in your mind? You this is what makes these systemic differences. It's it'S almost a mathematical thing. I really I'm joking a little bit, but I kind of think of it that way. Like it only takes a little Bit of that inequality on a global level on a, you know, I guess literally global. But also, I just mean like in a kind of societal level where such a feedback loop. If everybody's like, you say for a given thing, they're, you at men times one, if they're all mad at women times one point two for that same thing,

0:17:07 Lydia: That's what it was and yeah yeah it was not great mm -hmm mm -hm mm -him mm -huh -yeah

0:17:51 Thomas: Like it's so quickly spirals because people get motivated to then post all this additional stuff and then you find more reasons and more reasons. And like it, it drives attention and it drives the effort, you you know, which then spills back on itself. We see it with Blake, like those, subreddits just every day, it's 47 ,000 posts about how everything she does is wrong. And I we know some amount of it is artificial, but I don't even know how much anymore. I really don't. Like, I think that I think people are this way, you even with Chapel Rowan, there could be bot activity. There could be, you Know, there's There's there's some people alleging that like it could be to do with that, maybe because she doesn't support Israel. You know, there's a lot of conspiracy theory that stuff that and it might not even be wrong conspiracy theory stuff. I don't know, but it's I don'T even think we have to go there. I don' t really think it's about that. You know I think that there you this. If you had a bot network or whatever that was you wouldn' t be able to do this with men like you wouldn'T

0:18:17 Lydia: -

0:18:46 Thomas: Be able to do the same thing. You could do something maybe but it wouldn' T be the same. And so the underlying problem, yeah, the bot stuff or all that crap, I think should we get rid of it. We should cancel the Internet. I'm all for that. But that isn't the heart of the problem. The heart of The Problem is our biases, is how sexist we are as a society. Society. So, like, I wanted to piggyback off what you said, and I went and found some of the posts that I first saw. So on Reddit is where I see everything. I didn't know there was a thing called Instagram. I thought that was just a picture you could put on Reddit. No, I'm just kidding. So let me here's one again. It's a pretty these are all they're one offs. They're just normal people, I think. But, you know, they're posts that got a lot of attention. But I just, it's not so much about that. It's more that the language I think is reflective of how a lot of people think about

0:18:45 Lydia: Yeah yeah Yeah.

0:19:29 Thomas: This. Um, title is, I think it's time to have an honest talk about Chapel Roan. Okay. So I'm not here to hate on her, defend her blindly. I actually think there are legitimate arguments on multiple sides sides in the discourse has been really shallow. I do agree that no amount of fame entitles strangers to physical proximity with you. The paparazzi industry has a long documented history of causing real psychological harm and her is arguably just self -defense in this modern landscape and whatever that's about. However, this is the part that I thought was interesting. However I also is built on parasocial intimacy. She has actively cultivated a fan base that feels personally connected to her. There's a tension in selectively invoking that closeness when it benefits you and rejecting it when it's convenient um more but I just thought that language was so interesting because if there's anyone I could think of who's not done that it would be her like I mean maybe I'm wrong maybe there's parts of it that you can tell me I'm right but I'm not right but what about her brand is personal parasocial intimacy it's drag like that's the most like like showy, non -intimate thing there could be.

0:20:35 Lydia: I be based off of, you really active TikTok presence, you of gets personal with people in that space. But again, at the end of the day, it's still Chapel Rome. Like she doesn't even want fans. They know her real name. She does not want them calling her her real name. Right? Has drawn that line even in TikTok videos.

0:20:57 Thomas: Interesting. Yeah, and like, this is the kind of thing where I think there's also a question of like, how much should anyone care? Like, I have these, when I think about celebrity stuff, and I'm like, yeah, I guess, you know, they are entitled to their personal space and time and all that. They do make gajillions of dollars, so a lot of people are just like, screw it, you should be essentially, potentially you know our monkey to dance whenever we want you know yeah and I don't agree with that but I also think that like I'm not wasting a lot of my time caring about it because it's not like my high priority I you know like the highest priority problem is not what are these one percenters sad about you know but at the same time you I do think that and same goes with blake I do Think when you look at something like that and you're saying not only should they be on the clock whenever we want, but also this is a very unfair sexist expectation, then it's like, okay, yeah, I'm not crying for Chapel Roan or for Blake Lively and their millions of dollars, but it's also indicative of the systemic unfairness here. And I just hate the unfairness of it that like, what about her means it's parasocial intimacy? I mean, there are people who are literally work as sex workers. That doesn't mean if they're off the clock, you can can have sex with them like none of that matters yeah

0:21:18 Lydia: On the clock 24 -7. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to jump too, is that, like, why is the parasocial relationship that a fan has formed with a celebrity the celebrity's fault and their manage. I have, as human beings, I don't think this is specific to this country. I don'T think it's specific to this time or anything like that. We have a real problem with fan culture. We HAVE a really, really, REALLY big problem as human being and how easy it is, honestly, to develop those parasocial relationships. But I DON'T think it's fair to say that that is the responsibility of a celebrity, barring extreme situations and circumstances. I imagine there are some where those get manipulated by people, and I think that's fine to call out. But I Chapel Roan is not sitting there and creating, specifically and individually and directly to millions and millions of people to kind of lure them into a parasocial relationship. People are entering into that through psychology just by themselves yeah

0:23:03 Thomas: I I also think it's interesting that like we say okay but you're rich and you're celebrity so you know you that's the trade -off but we never care about like billionaires who own companies we've never heard of you know like like nobody bothers them and it's just like I don't think money means we get to to treat people like shit. Again, it's not my highest priority, but okay. If we're here, if we're going to talk, if we'RE talking about it, if if WE'RE looking at this situation, yeah, I don't think because someone makes a lot of money, you're entitled to their time or personal space. And I just thought that language was so interesting. Like why, I think the only thing that makes this person think that chapel is built on parasocial intimacy is chapel's a woman. I think that's projection. I think it's taking advantage of the gender dynamics, I think, of women having to be or appearing warmer, nurturing, whatever. Yeah, I think it is that. If a dude is just a performer, nobody would say that. Nobody would say, well, their entire brand is parasocial intimacy just because they perform in this way. I just don't I

0:24:11 Thomas: That was interesting. So what's could talk about the reaction. Hard to judge because there's been a lot of Chapel Roan hate all the time, you know, and there's Been swells on different instances and this definitely was one of them. But what I think is interesting is this went so far that the fucking mayor of Rio de Janeiro, the mayor of Río de Janeiro called for Chapel Road to be banned from performing.

0:24:04 Lydia: -him yeah yep that's exactly what I was gonna say next that's crazy yep and said shakira would never

0:24:39 Thomas: I was hoping you would explain that to me.

0:24:41 Lydia: Well, Shakira is beloved stuff like we love Shakira. Incredible.

0:24:45 Thomas: Funny.

0:24:45 Lydia: And, you know, I think she's

0:24:47 Thomas: Who's we? Are you tired? Oh, OK. So I'm the outsider and you're telling talking, me about the world. Yeah, OK, I

0:24:53 Lydia: And Shakira, you know, she's from Colombia and stuff. And so I think there's a little bit of a dig there to Chapel Roan just being, you know, a white girl from the Midwest versus Shakira who is, you this know, South American, you you know, amazing performer and stuff and just sort of, I Brazilians together

0:25:07 Thomas: Just thought it was so funny to say. I doubt that Shakira would do that when it's like, you're going to invoke this one singer. Like it's trying to be a boast, but it's like, I think it's the opposite when you can say like, well, our one singer that we have.

0:25:22 Lydia: When it's not even theirs. She's not Brazilian. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny.

0:25:25 Thomas: It's just, it was a random thing. It's like why would that be? But anyway that's crazy. Like the fact that the mayor of Rio de Janeiro called, said, like as long as I'm mayor, she's not performing here you know this is a translation so who knows but it says I mean as long as I'm in charge of our city this young lady at chapel roan will never perform at totemundo norio I doubt that you care I would do that by the way uh and tagging the soccer player your little one is already the guest of honor from the organization in may so yeah on the word of this This man, this soccer player who wasn't there, maybe you didn't catch that if you're just hearing this story for the first time. If you go back and read what he said, he says, I went through a very upsetting situation with my family. OK, interesting. My wife is in Sao Paulo this look through the story and it turns out he wasn't even there.

0:26:24 Thomas: This soccer player. I mean, I don't know if he was in. I'm actually not even sure. Was he at the hotel? I don'T even know.

0:26:23 Lydia: Well, I, I don't think so. He said by coincidence, they're staying at the same hotel as this artist. He didn't say we're staying at the same hotel.

0:26:33 Thomas: So he's getting something secondhand from his wife. He wasn't even there. And on his word, which it's still funny to say, I went through a very upsetting situation. Sure. Uh, get it, but it's like, I mean, if this were me, I'd be like, boy, my wife and my daughter just went through something. Like, I feels a little self -centered, but anyway, So on the word of this guy who wasn't there, who is relaying what he heard secondhand. And, and by the way, I don't know, you know, not to cast aspersions. I have no idea who the wife is, but also it's her telling a story around a daughter. Like I could see, you Know, like I could see details being played up in different ways or things being emphasized in different And he goes to Instagram, it was, right? And he, like, just on his word alone, and he's saying, you know, the chapel, you're nothing, the fans shouldn't even, she doesn't deserve your affection, fans, all that. And the mayor is banning her all on the word of one dude. Dude. That's a good place to continue with the story.

0:27:46 Lydia: So this whole thing blows up and everyone comes out of the woodwork to hate on Chapel Roan. There are people who are accusing her of being rich all of a sudden, because she was able to attend this, this camp, you know, like a Grammy camp sort of thing for for new singer songwriters

0:28:03 Thomas: What? Oh, when she was a kid, as you're saying. OK, yeah, that's you skipped a few steps there. Also,

0:28:08 Lydia: You know what what left out of that was that she actually like had to raise money for that it wasn't like out of pocket for her family and and who cares yeah um when you're talking about like you know whatever it's a kid but it's also Jude Law's kid like okay I don't really know why we're digging into Chapel's financial history. Was obviously something that grew so big. Chapel Roan is like, I don't know, she doesn't really shy away from voicing her opinion on things for better or for worse. And so she posted a video, which was essentially her statement from the event from from her perspective.

0:28:16 Thomas: Who gives a shit? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We can play that. I find it a little weird, but, you know, whatever. She's she's laying in bed for some reason. So everyone knows of what she.

0:28:55 Lydia: Just very typical of, yeah, of her. Yeah, just video and like, you know, wherever she's at.

0:29:03 Thomas: But yeah, this is a big enough deal that she's having to address it.

0:29:06 Clip: I'm just going to tell my half of the story of what happened today with a mother and child who were

0:29:15 Thomas: Right. I'm turning into Tom. Fuck Gen Z.

0:29:16 Clip: Involved with a security guard who was not my personal security. I didn't even see a woman and a child. No one came up to me. No one bothered me. I was just sitting at breakfast in my hotel. I think these people were saying at the hotel as well so the fact that like a security guard who was I did not ask the security guard to go up and talk to this mother and child I did not they did not come up to me they weren't doing anything it's unfair for security to just assume someone doesn't have good intentions when they have no reason to believe because there's no action even taken like I do not hate people who are fans of my music I do NOT hate children like that is crazy I'm sorry to the mother and child that that someone was assuming something that you would do something and that if you felt uncomfortable that makes me really sad you did not deserve deserve that.

0:29:21 Thomas: Put on clothes and address the camera. I mean, I find that weird, but whatever. At least she addressed it.

0:30:27 Lydia: Know. Yeah.

0:30:29 Thomas: I I don'T understand Gen Z, I guess. I don' t get the whole thing. Just say stuff directly and that's okay it's fine um she's eccentric it's okay that's how she is she's lying in bed though

0:30:31 Lydia: Guess not. I was that excited. Okay. All right. I don'T KNOW. IT'S CASUAL.

0:30:43 Thomas: Responding to a thing about a child getting you know first off it's interesting I a moral sense I don'T think she needs to respond but I do think if you are going to respond then I would think you'd want to signal like taking it more more seriously, I guess. I find it weird.

0:30:58 Lydia: See, I think that would have been weirder. I think if like, Like if she's, treating you it like, a PR crafted statement or something like that, like that feels more uncomfortable to me.

0:31:07 Thomas: There's many degrees between what you're talking about, which is not what I'm talking about.

0:31:11 Lydia: Evening. I'm just kidding.

0:31:12 Thomas: Yeah, and she doesn't need to be in a suit at the Resolute desk. It's just weird. She's lying down in bed sideways doing it. This is not important. I just don't get Gen Z, but I could see why things like this would probably fuel, again, a little bit more hatred and a little bit more hate. I'm not posting about that. I don't care. It is just a thought I have. I could see why, like, a woman not showing like what you think of as deference or whatever in that situation is another thing that might enrage society in a way, you know? And maybe that's another way that she's kind of not playing by the rules in a way that I think is great, but probably pisses people off.

0:31:50 Lydia: So then this led to the mom doing a six minute video.

0:31:54 Thomas: Really? Oh, I actually haven't seen this. I don't know this. Shit.

0:31:56 Lydia: I'll just give you some quotes from it. But yeah, I said, she's an influencer online. She has a wide following. She goes by Kat Covelli. And she said, you I didn't realize it would get this crazy. I know that Chapel has responded saying that it wasn't her security and she didn't do it. Then she goes on, you what she knows is 100 % this security guard was not a security guard of the hotel. Tell. I don't know if he was her personal security guard, but he was with her. That is all I know.

0:32:26 Lydia: Did she send him to do it? Again, I don t know. Look, I would like to hope not, but at the same time, I think that you have a responsibility when you are a celebrity to make sure, I guess, that the people who work for you and that act on your behalf are acting on your behalf. Would he do that if he didn t have her authority to do so? I don t know If he does, then obviously that s a big problem because then he s representing her in a way that she doesn t want to be represented. For me, I feel like if she really didn't send him, the security guard overstepped a boundary because he's quite an intimidating man and wasn't her, I hope she learns to maybe not allow the people who work for her to treat people like this.

0:32:59 Thomas: It wasn't her. It's still her fault, probably.

0:33:02 Lydia: So it's still her fault. Exactly. And that the present was the daughter was tickets to Chapel Roan show at Lollapalooza, and they ended up not attending the show. Don't I know if it was because of this. I guess it's sort of implied.

0:33:16 Thomas: Yeah. I didn't even know that. Okay, Mm-hmm

0:33:18 Lydia: Six minutes long. Then, man, this whole thing, it just spirals and spirals. So, then the security guard speaks out, the one that That caused all of the issues, I guess.

0:33:29 Thomas: This I did see. Yeah, that's do not normally address Address online rumors. Weird way to start. Nobody cares. I don't know who you are. But the accusations currently circulating are false and constitute defamation. I take full responsibility for the interactions on March 21st. I was at the hotel on behalf of another individual, and I was not part of the personal security team of Chapel Roan. The actions I took were not on behalf OF Chapel Roane, her personal security, team, her management or any other individuals. I made a judgment call based on information we obtained from the hotel, events I had witnessed in the days prior, and the heightened overall security risk of our location. My sole interaction with the mother was calm and with good intentions, and The Outcome of the Encounter is regretful.

0:34:13 Thomas: So, I still a part where her statement weirdly didn't say that he wasn't her security guard and people seized onto that. And I got to admit, it's a little weird. Like, I wasn't sure if there's some possibility that he was working with her in some capacity and she talked around it, but whatever.

0:34:29 Lydia: My understanding is like she didn't even know this happened. So she wouldn't have even known who the security guard was to whether or not.

0:34:36 Thomas: Oh, to be able to say, no, that's a good point. Yeah, yeah. Good point. So maybe that's why. Yeah. It's a thing that people seized on. Um, it also seemed weird. Like I, I don't blame people that much for thinking like, yeah, this, it's a weird that like, if she confirmed it's not hotel, who else's security is going to like do that right in front of, you know, like I don'T blame people for thinking this might've been Chapel Roan. Again, how mad should we be? Probably not very mad. I also don't know if the security guard is saying it was a calm interaction and the wife was saying it was like horrible and he was threatening to complain. Who knows? You know, I don't sound like I trust this meathead security guard. He doesn't seem like he's amazing, but also I don'T know. Like if we're talking about an influencer who, could be making a bigger deal, but I DON'T know who I trust in that situation. Maybe it was the respectful thing. I can'T imagine even a security guard who's like kind of a meathead is going to be particularly like rough with an 11 year old. Like I kind of doubt it.

0:35:32 Lydia: It could be that like his tone of voice is intimidating. I saw a picture of him.

0:35:36 Thomas: Could be.

0:35:36 Lydia: He's a big man, you know.

0:35:37 Thomas: Or it could be that she's really entitled. Like, honestly, who knows if it's a Veruca salt situation and any no sounds like a threat to, you know, who know? I don't know. I'm just saying like, I don' t know. And so again, I think as a responsible citizen, if you don't, no, you shouldn't be engaging in a hate campaign against somebody. Like you might be like, Oh, there could be, you Know, like if the facts Facts went a certain way. I could see being a little a little, you know, down on Chapel Roan, I guess, if the facts went a certain way, but when you don't know, maybe don't go on a whole hate campaign. But nevertheless, I don't even think this mattered.

0:35:40 Lydia: It could Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, and I think also the other interesting piece of his statement was that he said that was there something else that happened or I don't remember exactly how he phrased it, but information that they had where they would be concerned, you know, there was like probably a heightened sense of risk for whatever reason. And we're talking about a very fancy hotel with probably a lot of people who are staying there who are of elite status. And just last year, there was a planned bomb attack at the Lady Gaga concert in Rio de Janeiro. And they were able to arrest the suspects before anything happened but like keep that in mind we're talking about a lot of people in a space there's I imagine is going to take things very very seriously and so if they have any sort of information or whatever we're not necessarily privy to that and they're going to act accordingly based on their training or whatever and

0:37:03 Thomas: Or he's being unreasonable and we just don't really have any way to know.

0:37:05 Lydia: We don't know and we don't know

0:37:06 Thomas: You don't all need to have an opinion on every single thing that happens in the world without facts, you know. Even beyond this, people are We're kind of still mad, but seemed like it settled stuff down. So that was like quite a while. You know, I don't want to say it was like 20 days ago.

0:37:24 Thomas: Right. I mean, that that was, yeah, 22 days ago was when the security guard made that statement.

0:37:23 Lydia: I Yeah, a couple weeks ago, almost three weeks ago. Monday.

0:37:30 Thomas: And then just the other day, when was that? Yeah, it was, like, just happened. Okay. Time goes too fast for me. It was just the other day. We get a statement from the soccer player. Y'all ready for this?

0:37:40 Lydia: Read it to me.

0:37:41 Thomas: I would like to give an update on what happened during Lala weekend, as we have been seeing and hearing a lot over the past few weeks. And felt it was important to clarify everything. Now that new information has come to light. I made my initial statement in the heat of the moment after hearing that my child and wife had been approached by an adult male security guard in an intimidating way. I reacted as any father would it's a weird thing to say when you have some amount of my understanding is this guy's a pretty famous soccer player I don't know soccer but there are people I saw commenting that were like worldwide he's probably more famous than her worldwide

0:38:14 Lydia: Well, I mean, you'd have to be for the mayor of Rio de Janeiro to be willing to like I think so. I think you have to matter.

0:38:19 Thomas: Maybe it's is he from there oh

0:38:22 Lydia: No, I think he's Italian. But I mean like you're you're a football, you know, soccer star that is so important.

0:38:27 Thomas: Did he play for a team that was something yeah

0:38:30 Lydia: That's so important to other countries outside of America. So.

0:38:32 Thomas: I truly don't care sorry I don't know so but it point point taken that like I think he is pretty famous so uh saying I react as any father would which is I posted an insane fucking accusation against a woman and essentially sicked millions or hundreds of tens of millions at least of people on a woman based on something I wasn't there for as Fatherwood like first off how many fathers can can do that. Not many, you know, some.

0:39:01 Lydia: He is five million followers. But again, he also tagged in Chapel Roan and I

0:39:06 Thomas: Is he retired? Is he older? Is he retired. It might've been like when he played, he was big. I don't know. Who cares?

0:39:10 Lydia: Think he's retired.

0:39:11 Thomas: Really? I keep seeing comments that are like, he used to play for something that mattered. I who knows, maybe he used to play for a team that I don'T care. Sorry. I just cannot care about soccer. I have too many things to care about.

0:39:22 Lydia: I'm sure someone will write in and let us know. I know.

0:39:23 Thomas: People will be furious, but I don'T, I, you, I'm, I'M happy for you soccer fans. I DON'T care as any father would, that's weird. Back to the statement.

0:39:31 Lydia: Wait. Side note. Let me correct the record. I said he was Italian. He represented the Italy national team, but he is a defensive midfielder for one of the Brazil teams and he was born in Brazil. So there is a lot of connection there.

0:39:44 Thomas: So like different kind of citizenship stuff, depending on the, okay, so I think that is more of a, I suspected there was more of an intimate connection there.

0:39:47 Lydia: I guess so. Hmm.

0:39:52 Thomas: Point is, my priority is and will always be protecting my family. And that's exactly what I did. Is that what you did? Find that odd.

0:39:58 Lydia: How was that protective?

0:40:00 Thomas: Such a male overcompensation thing to be like, you weren't there, you whatever reason. I'm not judging, but like for whatever reasons, you aren't there. So what you're going to do is when you weren'T there, you're going to go over and beyond after the fact to start a shit storm that like would really it be good for the wife because she's a whatever influencer but it's not good for the daughter like whatever else all told the thing you did there did not protect your daughter like is the daughter doing with that like how what is it valuable to her to have a whole bunch of people mad at chapel roan and to have this like you on her and like, you know this mob descending, because whenever a mob descends, there's going to be all kinds of people, you Know, there'll be people who are looking into everything, every which way. Point did nothing to increase the safety of your daughter. There's no way, like it just objectively speaking. And I think it's a very of ironic, like overcompensation to be like protecting my family by after the fact tweeting about it or whatever, like Instagramming about it. Back to the statement. I also want to make clear that the situation did occur as it was originally described. I mean, well, I guess we'll just take their word

0:41:12 Thomas: For it. At the time, we acted, we, on the information that was available to us. Since then, I've become aware of new information that has changed my understanding of parts of what happened. Chapel Roan made a public statement, reached out privately to Catherine, and our teams also spoke directly. It became clear that she had had no knowledge of what took place at breakfast, and she had not asked anyone to approach them. Oh, that's sort of like what she said.

0:41:38 Thomas: Sure sounds a lot like she said 20 -something days ago. She was understanding and sympathetic to what had happened to her child. The security guard himself has since confirmed publicly that he was representing another artist at the hotel at the time. While we still do not know what prompted him to approach them, and do not believe an 11 -year -old at breakfast could reasonably be seen as any kind security threat, it is now clear that he was not acting on behalf of Chapel. It was ultimately a misunderstanding in that respect, and I am glad to set the record straight. It's important to me that this is clarified fairly and accurately. I regret the impact this has had on Chapel Roan, Catherine, Ada, and our family. I will always stand up for my family, but I also know how to recognize when things were not quite what they seemed at first. Thank you for the the support we receive during this sensitive moment. I do, however, want to make one thing very clear. I don't support or encourage hate speech or online attacks from any side. Respect, empathy, and humility are values I carry and teach my family every single day. As far as I'm concerned, this matter is closed. Heart.

0:42:40 Lydia: Be nice to think that.

0:42:42 Thomas: You know what wasn't in there? Were there any words that anyone can think of that, you now, maybe weren't in that?

0:42:47 Lydia: Sorry.

0:42:47 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah I apologize I'm sorry I was wrong it's so it's man fucking men it's and also celebrity it's to somewhat you know like there's there's a feeling that like celebrities and pr and all that have to like not I don't get it I personally I don' t understand it like this is uh my bad like I closest he comes is and this is this I'm so sick of this fucking pr type talk I regret regret the impact this situation has had. I you can't regret that, you what does the word regret mean? You

0:42:49 Lydia: Like, the base the foundation of an apology? Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah, mm hmm.

0:43:20 Thomas: Know, I've just fucking, I'm looking it up. How many R's, T's, G's, uh, believing a past decision resulted in a bad outcome. So you can regret your decision.

0:43:25 Lydia: You'll never find it. Action.

0:43:33 Thomas: Yeah. But you can'T regret. I mean, I think, look, language changes. And by now Now there's been so much PR talk that this is kind of what it means now, but usually like usually regret involves you in some way, or a feeling that you could have done something different or you, or something could have been done. That's another definition. Like something could've been done, but you can't really regret like result of your actions, but not your action.

0:43:58 Thomas: You know what I mean? Like, it's just a, such a weasel way to say it like, oh, I regret what all of you did after I did what I did.

0:43:56 Lydia: Online discourse. Mm hmm. Mm. Yeah after I sicked all of you on them.

0:44:08 Thomas: It's like I regret how you all acted as a result of my words you know it's just so it's such fucking bullshit I read read that thing which what I thought was today but was apparently Monday because that's how fast the week has gone I thought it was like yeah today yesterday I read it and it was just chuckling to myself like I of course like there's no apology and and so on brand of this whole thesis of inequality for the man to be like, well, as far as I'm concerned, this matter is closed. Okay. You've left a wake of like terror. You know, you've left awake of people. Hey, literally look at the statement. Look at the segment, all caps without your fans, you would be nothing. And to the fan, she does not deserve your affection, but

0:44:20 Lydia: You thought that was today. Wow. Yeah Yeah. I know.

0:44:52 Thomas: I didn't want to encourage any hate or anything, you

0:44:55 Lydia: That's the thing. I regret the impact the situation has had.

0:44:59 Thomas: You're right. Right. It wasn't even, yeah, the situation has had, know what?

0:45:02 Lydia: Right. It's specifically the security guard approaching his daughter. And that's what he regrets?

0:45:07 Thomas: That's actually, sorry. That was the point my brain was making. And I forgot what I was saying midway. I regret that you're even, thank you for pointing that out. That's even better. I regard the impact that this situation has had. So if I were to say, like, let's say there's a hurricane and it comes through, would it make any fucking sense for me to be like, boy, I regretthat that hurricane came through? No, you can't regret a situation. You can't regret something that's beyond, like, just something that's a natural occurrence. It's so fucking weaselly. I hate it. I regret that thing happened to you that had nothing to do with me. It's stupid. The word is for your actions. I regard what I did. You could regret like something could have been done. That's another way.

0:45:51 Thomas: But you can't regret a situation and how that situation impacted somebody. It's so 1400 degrees detached from taking responsibility.

0:46:02 Lydia: Hmm. I think it's also really frustrating that that their response to Chapel posting her video explaining her perspective was for the mom to go on a six minute video continuing to sow distrust.

0:46:17 Thomas: Yeah, which didn't really, yeah, that six minute video, I imagine, like you didn't talk about this, like what effect did that have? Can you tell? Or kind

0:46:24 Lydia: Well, so I saw a lot of people kind of circle back to Chappell's video as a result and saying, like, notice how she says that, of really, really talking about her word choice. And, you know, notice how Chapel doesn't say this. She says this. If she actually was sorry, you know, and if she had absolutely nothing to do with it, she would have reached out to them and offered them tickets to a concert because that means nothing to her and would have meant the world to the little girl, even if she wasn't involved. So I think it just continued to keep people in that sea of, you know, chapel hate, basically.

0:46:39 Thomas: Yeah. The thing about like, it might've been right. Yeah. Right. Of course. What was the timing on her video and the security guard? Oh, so based on if these posts are concurrent, which I think they are 25 days ago was hers 22 days ago was security guard. When was the wife statement? Cause that's the one thing I I didn't have.

0:47:16 Lydia: I'm looking. Looks like March 22nd. So that was the day after the incident happened.

0:47:24 Thomas: That is before the security guard. I will give her credit there. Notice that Chappell's words had no effect. And then even after the security guard, it took them another 20 days to say anything. One thing I saw that was so funny is in all of this, no one gives a shit about the security guard. Barely anyone cares about the man who did the thing, or honestly, people don't really care that much about whoever was allegedly employing that security guard. Like there's some other artist who was that people just wanted a chance to seize on Chapel Rhone and be really mad. And the way that this can happen, that like on this man's word, he wasn't there. He sicks a whole group of people on Chapel Rhone. It has this huge hate effect. The mayor is banning her. And then 20 days later, 20, well, 25 days after the event can be like, I regret that happened. Anyway, matters closed. So fucking unfair.

0:48:33 Lydia: There's a little bit from a Mother Jones article I was reading on this where it says, but is the matter actually closed? The harassment that resulted, something completely unjustified, even if Roan was in fact mean to a child.

0:48:44 Thomas: Even if it happened, as he said, like, even if everything was true and it wouldn't have been Chapel Rone, it would have been her security guard. But but still, like, even if all that was true and that was a point you made to me, I'm not sure that you got to say on here is like even if it did happen like that, you

0:48:58 Lydia: I don' t totally blame her. I mean, like I said, it's it's in line with the boundaries that she has expressed in other situations. And if that's the line in the sand for her, that's a line in sand for like I don don't, who am I to say that that's wrong or whatever? But they go on, it's illustrative of how famous women have to be perfect, even when mistreated. As culture writer Rain Fisher Kwan wrote in 2022, women in the public eye exist, quote, in a system that builds them into untouchable fantasies, just so we can watch and glee as the facade inevitably crumbles. And that just like hit me right in the gut because that is so true. It is so true. I mean, you look at any woman's celebrity over decades and the way that like you build them up Britney Spears, right? And how people when she went through everything she went through and the conservatorship and the mental health struggles and her continued struggles, there are people that seize on And that that's entertainment now for them, too. And it's gross. It's so, so gross. And you put them up on a higher and higher and higher pedestal. So then their fall can be even more dramatic and entertaining for you.

0:49:34 Thomas: Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I I think that's probably right. I think there's some out that that it might just be truly two different groups of people.

0:50:18 Lydia: Could be.

0:50:19 Thomas: See that a lot in the comments, too, where people like, well, it's a it's such a roller coaster. Or first someone says this and everyone believes and then someone says this and then everyone believes that person and then someone comments like I think they're just two different groups of people and I I think that's very true too I've said it with some other stuff we don't have a way of knowing exactly if anyone's changing their mind or if the different people flock to the different thing that they agree with and are just not seeing the other thing or not commenting on it um but it doesn't I I don't think it negates the point you're making at all um one thing that I think also goes with the point you're making. The thing that I think of is, again, it only takes a little bit of a difference, but I think it's a pretty significant difference in how men treated in this. This will follow Chapel Roan forever.

0:50:59 Thomas: Like I'm not saying it will be the number one thing. I'm not saying everyone will know about it, but there will always be this somewhere in the atmosphere of her. It'll be in people's minds and their perception of how rude she is, of how uppity she is of how stuck up she is it'll always be there somewhere and you'll see comments about it and you're like thinking she's a you know she's a bitch or whatever like you'll see that forever this guy we even though in the moment he's getting criticism like I'm not saying no one and that's the thing I want it really trying to drive this home it's not that everyone you know hates chapel and everyone loves the dude that's not how it happens like plenty of people criticizing the soccer guy but you know how long that'll last like a a few days and then no one will care. Like stuff doesn't follow men the way it follows women. I don't know what, why do you think that is?

0:51:51 Lydia: I I think, I mean, well, I think it's misogyny. I mean I think there's an element of it where as we hold men to different standards than we hold women regardless of celebrity status. Like it's no matter what. If you are a man, this is the expectation. If your woman, this is the expectation. There was actually a from Kat Tenbarge, who I mentioned to you earlier, who wrote, this is what happens to women and marginalized people all the time. People make stuff up about you and it becomes your reputation, even though you never did what they accused you of doing. This is supposedly the great threat of the Me Too movement to permanently tarnish innocent men's reputations. But in reality, it happens all the time to women over significantly less serious allegations. A hundred percent. A 100%.

0:52:33 Thomas: All time. All of a sudden, I can tell you from personal experience as a woman, no, but actually at the, um, Sargon crowd. So it's it's Not that it only happens to to women. It's, you know, ninety nine to one, you know, women to men. But when that crowd wants to go after someone like me who is, you know, in my view, trying to defend feminism and stuff, but when they want to use those same tools against you, they do. And so I saw the same things. I had people following me around. It didn't really matter because frankly, again, because I'm not a woman, they didn't have the same energy. They tried, you know. They kept it up a little bit. But for years, maybe even still today, I don't know.

0:52:40 Lydia: Disproportionately. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:53:14 Thomas: But for like, at least, this is not an exaggeration, at least a good five years guaranteed, maybe more, after the debate with Sargon, I had people following me places just saying, aren't you the guy that Sargon whatever. And it's that and plus the other stuff they would make up. So they make up little things and they all echo it to each other. And so it it's two things. It's a thing that people do naturally in their minds with women, I think. It is also a tactic. It it's also like an active tactic and it's a group. So I guess it's three things. I really think it's three things combined. It's like, it is that attitude, but it's Also this tactic. And it's also something that's employed against women way disproportionately, but It also requires this dedicated fucking group of assholes of incels or what it really does. Like they, they go around online and just, they see it as their duty to maintain these things. And when it comes to women, women, there's an army. There's a, just a massive army. They have no end to the energy. When it came to me, there was some, and they, you know, it, it sucked. I'm not, you Know, it's sucked. It's annoying. It'S, it'S whatever, but it's not the same. Like they don't, don'T they maintain that energy for me the way they would for any of the women involved in Gamergate or any

0:54:23 Thomas: Of the women involving any of that stuff. Like it's, and I think the reason, you know, another reason I'm sympathetic to it is because I've seen it, you they do it and how if there were more energy behind it, how bad it would be. Like happened if to me had another thousand people in on it or whatever that were like the dedicated kind, it would beheld all the time.

0:54:45 Thomas: It wouldn't take much. You know? It doesn't take mucho. There are these little troll groups of incel assholes, misogynist assholes. And so I think it's those three things. It really, it'll follow them around forever. So it's like on on a societal level, I don't think our society is made up of those people. Like, I really don't. I think I think they're they're online. And now the online world affects the real world way too much. And it's and it's almost is the real World now, you know, unfortunately, like when it comes to politics, politicians, celebrity.

0:55:16 Lydia: And it also all gets curated online too right because because sort of um drives engagement and then that turns into profit for these businesses and so like they stand to benefit from people being angry and and a lot of times what gets people angry is women yeah

0:55:20 Thomas: Celebrity. And I just think I totally, and I think there's also, so there's like the mechanical aspect of it. There's the personal, like the troll group aspect of it. And then there's also just the attitudinal aspect of it, which is, I just think when we think of men, when we conceive of men, there's just a different cognitive process that fucking goes on. Like, I think there's things where like, oh, well, it kind of sucked you to that, but you know, what are you going to do? Whereas when it's women, we're like, it sucks. She did that. I'm going to fucking be mad about it. Reminder forever, you know, like, cause

0:55:58 Lydia: In her comment section all the time constantly

0:56:04 Thomas: You're not afraid. You're not afraid. We're afraid of men. We'RE not, we'RE not afraid of women as a society. It, And again, it doesn't mean everybody all the time. It doesn't means everybody's sexist. It does. I'm not saying all that, but it does mean like that disproportionate difference. I just want people to notice, just notice how insane this was. What did Chapel Roan do? Like, what did she do?

0:56:20 Lydia: She ate her breakfast breakfast

0:56:24 Thomas: She she did nothing. She did nothing, and a dude flew off the handle about a situation he wasn't at and then offered a non -pology 20 days later, 25 days later. And what did she do? She did nothing, yet the net hate will have gone up for her and for the man, probably nothing. Like, honestly, I don't even, I doubt this will matter to him in a week.

0:56:24 Lydia: She literally sat at a table and was eating breakfast yep yeah and and any sort of future like semi -issue that ever happens with chapel roan this will be in the comments this absolutely will be yeah

0:56:54 Thomas: It will get brought up. Yep. Yeah, it will. Yeah. So I just want people to notice it. Just notice how much easier it is to disqualify women. That was really mind -blowing to me personally in the Hillary election. I read so many books back then and so many people wrote so well on it. And just that idea that we just disqualfy women so easily. It's not that we don't ever notice things wrong with men or criticize men. It'S that when we do, it just doesn't really have that effect. It doesn't have that salient effect who's

0:57:26 Lydia: Here's you know one one final thought for me anyway is um the epstein files one of the more recent document dumps happened and casey wasserman was was named in there he is a talent agent he's chapel ron's talent agent she left the agency immediately immediately and she was like I'll go find somebody else I will not be associated with that man ever at all the moral principle behind that like she stands by her position and she left that that took no I haven't seen anybody else do that

0:57:36 Thomas: That oh yeah yeah oh right that's right yeah it's interesting I was just thinking like did any anyone else do that he

0:58:00 Lydia: I think he has He has stepped down from the talent agency. But yeah, she's no longer affiliated with them. He has not stepped down from the L .A. Olympics planning committee from as far as I can see. So he's still like a figurehead with a lot of that stuff. So but you know what? Like she does that and and don't seem to ever talk about that. But she didn't accost an 11 year old and everyone's talking about that?

0:58:02 Thomas: Did yeah he stepped down what the fuck okay jesus yeah yeah well uh hopefully people got something out of this thanks hon for coming on and talking about this, it's just stuff I just cannot, I hate the unfairness of it. I just fucking hate it. It's just like, it just bothers me so much to see it's the unfairiness of it and how in denial society is about this effect. Drives me nuts. So hopefully people notice it. Maybe you can, you know, maybe listeners, you can spread this message if you aren't already about how this works. And I'm really trying to just, I'm trying to do this in an accessible to an average person way.

0:58:31 Lydia: Thanks for having me. Yeah.

0:59:00 Thomas: That's my goal. There's people who are way smarter and way more in on the theory and all that stuff and the jargon. Because we lost that election and it's so important to reach regular people, I'm just trying to think, can we get regular people to just notice it? Just notice Notice this. Yeah, it's so clear.

0:59:22 Lydia: Here's an example of this in action. Yeah.

0:59:25 Thomas: It's so clear. So hopefully that did something. Sorry if it didn't. All right. Thanks, everyone. We'll see you next time. How do you normally spell that? Is it two?

0:59:53 Lydia: L -O -L -L A -P -A -L O -O Z -A.

0:59:55 Thomas: See, you're changing the number of L's. You're changing. There's

0:59:58 Lydia: Lolla.

0:59:58 Thomas: Sometimes there's one, sometimes there're two or three, I guess.