DOD263: If I Had a Nickel for Every Time Some Dude Used Polyamory as an Excuse to Cheat...

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that thinks you're doing a terrible job. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:37 Thomas: Did everyone else hear that? I'm just making sure.

0:00:39 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. So we're going to be talking about having disabled children today. I don't, I don't know why Tom chose to introduce the episode that way.

0:00:50 Tom: You're doing terrible job, I thought I said that in the beginning intro. Pretty awkward for you now, really. Yeah.

0:00:52 Eli: Ooh, so they know right away. Yeah, exactly. It's important. Hey, speaking of terrible parents, my son, your mom is still alive. That's crazy, Tom.

0:01:00 Tom: My mom is still alive, yeah. She's still alive. Yeah, Yeah, sorry. Yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah. I just thought of that yesterday.

0:01:05 Thomas: He knew exactly where you were going with that. I just thought of that yesterday.

0:01:09 Eli: Think about all the children who are dead and your mom is alive.

0:01:15 Tom: I know. It's insane. It's insane, still still kicking. Yeah.

0:01:18 Eli: 30,000 children a year starve to death and Tom's mom is alive that's nuts still kicking I mean three I bet you could save three of them if you cut Tom's mum up and fed him to her honestly whatever you want to do no gentlemen my son has a new TV craze that's sweeping the nation he is watching voluntarily we used to make him watch an occasional episode now he actually asked for it. Bluey. So we've got Bluey back in our house and I have a Bluey take that I would like to run past you gentlemen. Now, Tom, you have not seen any Bluey? Okay. It's, it's about these Australian polyamorous dogs and they, they're the best parents in the universe, but sometimes for like four seconds, they are not great parents. And then based on the pretend game that their perfect children are playing, they will learn to be the perfect parents. Similarly, their children are sometimes not perfect for seconds at a time, but they'll learn the metaphor that their parents are experiencing, and then they'll go back to being perfect children who behave well and make great decisions all the time.

0:01:30 Tom: Yeah. Let's give it a whirl. Like who knows? Yeah.

0:01:45 Thomas: It's the best. Yeah. Ah, it was so good.

0:01:52 Thomas: Pre -ad break Bluey take? Never watched Bluey. Wow.

0:01:53 Tom: I have never seen Bluey. I've never watched it. No, my kids are too old for it. So you

0:02:34 Eli: So the bluey community, especially among parents, because Because let me hit you with this take. I think we are the first generation to reflect on whether or not we are good parents. Yeah.

0:02:50 Tom: Think, you think nobody has reflected on, yeah? Yeah, like Dr. Spock never sold any books about parenting because nobody cared about parenting.

0:02:54 Eli: So here's the thing, right? You have to remember how wildly controversial Spock's take of don't punch your kids like they are your enemies in a war was. Parenting improvement was hit less until our generation. We are the 1st non-hitting generation. Yes, it still has to be that. But we are the first non-hitting generation of parents that are like, okay, we're all in agreement, don't hit. Could we still be doing something better? Right, point number two. And we're also trying to figure out what point number one is. Point number two is.

0:03:14 Thomas: To be fair, it still also has to be that. But yeah, so like point number two. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now,

0:03:33 Eli: So the investment that people have in Bluey is, shall I say, intense.

0:03:42 Thomas: What are you basing this off of?

0:03:43 Tom: Yeah, what do you mean? Yeah.

0:03:44 Eli: So when I enjoy a thing, I will often just search it up on Reddit. It I'll be like oh well I like this thing let's see if there's anything fun right exactly yeah

0:03:51 Thomas: Why not let other people ruin it for me okay yeah I'm having this divine mental experience why not open that up to a bunch of assholes who are idiots who are

0:03:58 Tom: I wonder what the internet has to say.

0:04:01 Thomas: Going to say things about it that are really stupid

0:04:03 Eli: But the internet brought up a really interesting take which is that I think and I had this thought also about daniel tiger have you guys watched any daniel tiger

0:04:03 Tom: That'll enrich my experience. No.

0:04:14 Thomas: Yeah no a tiny tiny bit off your recommendation

0:04:17 Eli: So my son liked Daniel Tiger yeah a little bit when he was a kid

0:04:20 Tom: What's the age range for Bluey and Daniel Tiger?

0:04:21 Thomas: Yeah that's younger than your kids time bluey like okay here's the thing bluey you yeah yeah Bluey, you honestly could just watch. Like it's not, it'd be a little weird, but I think it's that good that you could, it like out of curiosity, you could be like, you Could turn it on for yourself and you would be like, okay, it's a good show.

0:04:24 Eli: Bluey it's mostly elder millennials yeah and I also think that if you're that version of a baby right you know those baby adults who are like Like, I'm a baby, and I'm a baby forever. And you're like, okay. Like, it's not harmful. They've just chosen. Come on!

0:04:53 Thomas: Yeah. Tom doesn't know that.

0:04:54 Tom: No, I don't do that with people. No what sure all right I would

0:04:57 Eli: They have, you know, yeah, but you've met him. You've met him, though. Right?

0:05:00 Thomas: I think those people, yeah, they would self -censor around Tom, you know?

0:05:04 Eli: Now, I know Tom, and I've seen people trauma dump onto Tom. They do not self -censor onto Tom! They wrap their legs around his waist and suckle at his teat as they explain why the loss of their favorite Spider-Man comic book was the worst thing

0:05:05 Tom: Hope so jesus christ

0:05:11 Thomas: I did it one time. I did it one time

0:05:21 Eli: So the interesting thing that I've noticed about bluey in this examination of how we can be better parents right because that's what that show represents to me is like how can we be better parents and the conversation that we're having right now is a pretty decent like well there's some really good episodes in that show I think baby race is probably like I recommend that to all new parents right that's the race one where they go through all the different dog brains and which ones are better and why the Jewish dog's IQ is so much higher than all the other dogs. It's a really interesting... No, but basically it's Bingo, the younger one, or someone's... One of the kids is not doing something as fast and Bluey's mom has, like, a flashback to when she was waiting for Bluey to walk or crawl or something and she wasn't going as fast as she wanted her to and that notion that, like everyone's kids progress at a different age. I remember that being really important when I was a new parent and especially because I had a developmentally delayed

0:05:42 Thomas: That's the race science one just for tom yeah so that's like how white is your baby yeah

0:05:44 Tom: The racist one yeah yeah which of the races wins yeah right yeah right

0:06:22 Eli: Child. And so I was like, oh, this is bad. Right. And it turned out to be true. Like my fears turned out to be quote unquote valid in that my kid did have a developmental delay and needed supports. But baby race was a really good way for me to process the emotions of my kid not doing everything at the speed that other kids were doing it.

0:06:45 Tom: So is bluey a show for the kids do you think or is Bluey a show for the grown-ups like who is it targeted at

0:06:50 Thomas: I think it's kind of for the grown -ups to be honest I think it's for the grown-ups and it's good enough that the kids also like

0:06:56 Eli: Right. I think that there are two shows happening. I think that Bluey the show for kids teaches kids inexpensive pretend games that they can play with each other and their parents that they will understand the rules to and enjoy that your parents are probably going to be willing to do relatively quickly. Almost every Bluey episode introduces a pretend game which is free or incredibly cheap that the parent watching and the kid can both instantly play the minute that episode is shut off it

0:07:28 Tom: Because I will say like I do rather like the idea of a kid's show that's like subtly or not so subtly trying to teach parents how to not be shitheads I think Mr. Rogers did a lot of that right like Mr. Rogers was a show that was like yes it's absolutely a kid show but like that idea of gentleness that is like there's this imbues mr rogers every moment of that show I think that absolutely teaches lessons to the adults that are watching it with them unlike shit like thomas the tank engine which you're just like I don't know what that episode is about at all I just saw it and tried to figure it out and always felt like it had a moral that I missed yeah

0:07:36 Thomas: It yeah it's it's really good Yeah

0:08:06 Eli: Was about out grouping lazy trains yeah

0:08:06 Thomas: Very traumatizing Yeah Exactly Those trains are paying rent When they hit 18 I'll tell you that

0:08:09 Tom: Like I just felt like it was like like thomas the tank engine was like yeah it waslikejudgy it waslikedo some work and move some coal around the mountain you dumb lazy shit I'm like okay fucking calm yourself a little

0:08:14 Eli: A hundred percent there's a real capitalist message to thomas the tank engine it's also not for us though is the thing like Thomas the Tank Engine is for

0:08:24 Tom: Bit the trank

0:08:27 Thomas: That's for British kids in the war That are being bombed

0:08:33 Eli: It's specifically for autistic British kids who want trains

0:08:37 Thomas: Who want to fuck trains?

0:08:37 Eli: Right because you could tell because it's short on plot it's not short on trains right it'll be like today thomas is meeting jeremy who's a b69 model ab4 running on a 16 track with a four cart load and you're like okay well I know who that's for

0:08:49 Tom: Engine all right so Bluey is for the grown-ups it's for the kids but like what's your take

0:08:59 Thomas: What's your take did we get all of your

0:09:01 Eli: So my take is that actually nothing makes me feel like a worse parent than bluey because I also think that like something that isn't talked about enough and by that I mean in my own head because that's the only place I am in Bluey discourse. Nobody's talking about the fact that I thought this thought and then wanted to say it out loud on our podcast.

0:09:15 Thomas: Take people are not talking about this enough in my

0:09:27 Tom: Here

0:09:29 Eli: And now I'm a right winger. So that's the next step is I have to be a thing that didn't happen to me. I now need to be oppressed by it. And then I'm, uh, I'm a Nazi now. So a thing, that's not talked about enough in the discourse around Bluey is that they're not real.

0:09:33 Thomas: Head oh so

0:09:47 Eli: And so the ability for their children to react instantly to good parenting choices is not real, the ability to react to bad things for them to maintain control over their emotions and for every bad moment to be a learning experience that never gets repeated is really, I think it's a tough thing to sell our generation. And as much as I love Bluey's attempt to make us better, I also think it doesn't deal with the realities of parenting which is that you are going to fail at the same stuff over and over and again and you're going to do your best to learn and sometimes you're gonna make great decisions and it's still not gonna work on your kid

0:09:45 Thomas: Good right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

0:10:26 Eli: And like obviously you can't do that in Bluey right you can't have a thing oh sorry that's Caillou you

0:10:30 Tom: I would fucking love a show where the parent does everything right and the kids like it still didn't

0:10:36 Eli: Have just described Caillou. Fuck Caillou, fuck Caillou forever. I worry because in watching the discourse, the limited discourse that I've seen, everyone's like, oh, it's such a great way to learn. And I'm like, it is if you understand that these are good lessons in a miniature five to seven minute format, as opposed to this is the parent I should be. Right. You hear a lot of people being like, I want to be bandit. And it's like bandit never goes to fucking work.

0:10:36 Tom: Work right

0:11:04 Eli: Like, sure, they reference difference that he goes to work but I've never been sitting there watching seven and a half hours of bandit be like I

0:11:10 Thomas: Of him having like an awful day

0:11:11 Eli: Don't know where the qar reports are brenda uh get right to work and then he comes home and bluey's like I shed in your bed like that's never been and it's five minutes he comes home he's a little tired yeah

0:11:19 Tom: What

0:11:14 Thomas: Hey yeah I'm kind of surprised they haven't done an episode like that though you know

0:11:27 Eli: They should but gentlemen do you know the only thing worse than being held to the standards of Bluey's dad, Bandit, the polyamorous shepherd dog. It's the auto-ads. The auto-ads ruining your podcast experience the way that the awareness that you'll never be as good as Bluey as parents ruins parenting. But you can get rid of all of that over at patreon.com/Dear Old Dads where for as little as a dollar an episode you'll get a commercial free version of every single show plus monthly bonus episodes on the stroke of midnight once a month. When? We'll never tell, but you can find out over at patreon.com/Dear Old Dads like bandit to that local polycule of dog women rip into it.

0:12:11 Thomas: Yeah to be fair like yeah I mean are all dogs poly maybe it's just anatomically maybe

0:12:11 Tom: The fuck has happened to this show

0:12:18 Thomas: It was just realistic you

0:12:24 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:12:26 Tom: All right so we got this uh message let me go ahead and run through this one this is really something

0:12:32 Eli: Well, it's not a message. It's a Reddit post. Yeah.

0:12:34 Tom: Well I was trying to pretend you know so yeah

0:12:35 Thomas: Know oh so it wasn't for uh yeah it wasn't an email okay

0:12:38 Eli: If this was an email, I would be like, you need to escape right now.

0:12:42 Tom: Yeah me 43 female and my husband 46 male have I've been married 15 years. I have two school -aged kids. We've had ups and downs like anyone, but I've been committed and loyal. I generally thought we were doing OK. A little while ago, he came out to me that he's polyamorous. He said he's always felt that way and that monogamy has always been hard for him. He described it like being a boiled kettle with no release valve, like he's going to explode if he can't have multiple people and experience multiple relationships. I was completely blindsided. But I love this man and our family with my whole heart. I don't want to suppress him or be the reason he's unhappy even though this was totally foreign to me I said I'd be open to learning about it and considering it he said it wouldn't be one -sided and I should be free to explore too just a couple later he tells me he's already found someone considering a date with him what? Because he's been lying this whole time it's a divorced woman from our neighborhood 11 years younger than him who he chats with at the school bus stop 100

0:13:30 Thomas: Yeah oh hey uh coincidentally yeah just uh total coincidence here yeah what are the odds

0:13:44 Tom: % I hadn't even processed the idea of Polly yet, hadn't read a single book, and suddenly, there's a date lined up. I felt blindsided all over again. I said it was ultimately up to him. I tried to express that I needed time, suggested some basic boundaries while I adjusted. He got frustrated, said if he's going to do this, he can't have boundaries because he needs to be able to explore freely. At the

0:13:45 Thomas: Yeah oh my god oh my God yeah uh

0:14:05 Eli: There are no laws.

0:14:03 Thomas: Oh okay sure yeah I like that wording if I'm gonna do this I what if you're gonna do it do whatever it's more about like are you somehow having your wife be okay with this

0:14:20 Tom: Same time, whenever I tried to even talk to someone or meet for coffee, he'd get visibly upset and say I wasn't communicating communicating properly he'd act like he was on the verge of a breakdown so I stopped pursuing anything because his mental well -being felt more important to me

0:14:26 Eli: That's so funny.

0:14:26 Thomas: That's that is really funny no I hope this is fake I really hope this is fake it's probably not yeah yeah is this your anti -poly propaganda

0:14:36 Eli: This feels like Tom wrote it to teach, to teach us.

0:14:38 Tom: I did not write this I promise I didn't write this nope nope nope this is not I don't care if other people are poly it just sounds horrible for me I don'T CARE IF OTHER PEOPLE DO IT meanwhile he continued talking to the neighbor she would ignore me in public he kept saying nothing is happening and that he didn't know what she wanted eventually it came out that she cared about him but had issues with him being married that that felt like a huge red flag no

0:14:46 Eli: Select I do no wait a second tom give me a second to recover from my shock

0:15:01 Thomas: God oh this is so funny do people not care about being total fucking punch lines like people are just okay with

0:15:09 Tom: They don't care about being punched like the kid rock is alive are you kidding me rfk jr works out in levi's on

0:15:09 Thomas: Being punchlines god it's weird

0:15:13 Eli: This is every man yeah in his jeans in his genes yeah

0:15:17 Thomas: That is true it's a good

0:15:17 Tom: Camera are you getting me yeah it started to feel like my existence was the obstacle to their progress it felt like for them to get what they both wanted would have to be at the cost of my marriage sometimes he would would acknowledge my concerns. More often, he would defend her and dismiss me. Eventually, I said I wasn't comfortable with that specific relationship continuing, and he agreed and said they'd delete each other's numbers and stop talking. But then I started noticing weird behavior at the bus stop.

0:15:43 Tom: He would take longer to come home. He wouldn't leave until she left. I spiraled and eventually checked his phone. They were still texting.

0:15:43 Eli: What no

0:15:45 Thomas: Point I'm so surprised

0:15:52 Tom: He had her notification silenced and regularly deleted messages. Anytime I asked, he denied they were talking.

0:15:58 Thomas: At this point I'm treating it like she's talking about a stranger that she met once and I'm like yeah like why would you why would YOU expect anything

0:16:03 Tom: Well, she certainly is. I wouldn't disagree with that. Yeah.

0:16:06 Eli: But wait no tom he said he would stop

0:16:08 Tom: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Silly me. Now I feel stupid. This is a long. I'm sorry, guys.

0:16:11 Eli: Maybe she imagined it maybe it's two people with the same name in his phone he said it would stop yeah keep keep reading. Yeah.

0:16:20 Tom: Once it became regular again, I decided to confront him. He said he hid it because he didn't know how I'd react and was worried that I would do something reckless and hurt her. He was more upset that I looked at his phone than that he had lied.

0:16:29 Thomas: From okay of course yeah there's always

0:16:32 Eli: Have you considered the thing you did instead of the thing I did?

0:16:36 Tom: He told me multiple times to get a grip and that my reactions are why people are afraid to be

0:16:42 Eli: You do need to get a grip on like an ax handle and kill him. It's what you need to do.

0:16:45 Tom: Themselves now

0:16:46 Thomas: That yeah well there it does come a certain point where I do blame her like it not for his behavior but for her but like at a certain moment you gotta be like oh this guy's not even married to you like I don't this is a stranger you're talking about someone who has

0:16:59 Eli: The final sentence is never mind. That's just my pharmacist.

0:17:03 Tom: I feel like a shell of a person I can barely get out of bed the only reason I function at all is because of our kids and because my income supports most of the household

0:17:14 Thomas: My god charge Charge him rent.

0:17:14 Tom: I do most of cooking and cleaning but I cannot keep

0:17:17 Eli: He's really working on his podcast. Okay.

0:17:20 Tom: Up our finances are spiraling because I can't stay on top of anything my mental and physical health have taken a toll I

0:17:25 Thomas: This is written by Tom. This is propaganda.

0:17:27 Tom: Feel like my entire life is disintegrating and somehow it's my fault like if I could just be more open less hurt less reactive everything would be fine how do I stop spiraling and regain control of my life and my marriage

0:17:38 Thomas: Realize that you're not married anymore.

0:17:41 Eli: That's not Polly. You're not Plly. You'RE in the play death of a salesman it's fucking nuts how the words polyamory have just added

0:17:44 Thomas: Yeah. That's nothing to do with Polly. Yeah. Yeah.

0:17:53 Eli: An extra step to the shitty husband who leaves his family

0:17:57 Thomas: It's sort of like if you or I were like, hey, we're into a little bit of like rough play, like a little bit of, you know, BDSM. And then people write in like, so my husband cut my leg off the other day and he said, yeah, like that's not the same.

0:18:08 Eli: Shot me in the face I'm a

0:18:15 Tom: Okay but but let me let me ask this how do you reconcile eli you're I know you're joking most of the time like when he's talking about boundaries right but like you've expressed many times that like you think that any kind of boundary around other people's behavior is sexual slavery yeah so how do you have boundaries then like I mean like isn't that part of the

0:18:21 Eli: Ghost absolutely what's more important than the truth is other people's feelings the boundary is what what makes your partner and you happy and you find a mutual thing. And if you can't find a neutral thing, it's your responsibility to end the relationship. I think boundaries on any kind of sexuality are just a teeny taste of slavery, right? It's like, I just want this much. So they just want a little bit of sexual slavery. And I get it. I get it. But if tomorrow Anna was like, we do the Mike Pence rule, I'd be like, okay, okay, I think that's unhealthy. Let's get into marriage counseling and talk that through with an adult. But because I care about you, we are Mike Pence rule until you are out of psychosis.

0:19:22 Tom: Problem

0:19:23 Thomas: I'm never I'm never doing Mike Pence

0:19:23 Tom: I did

0:19:25 Eli: The thing about boundaries for me is that boundaries are not a thing you get to impose on another person. Boundaries are a thing that you get to have personally, right? And so the one thing that I think that this fake email that Tom wrote to teach us a lesson so we have to eat the whole pack of polyamory the one thing that this person did wrong is they were like well here's what I'm comfortable with but then they phrased them in terms of other people's behavior no

0:19:42 Tom: Not write this email well

0:19:55 Thomas: Rule yes this is nothing to do with polyamory yeah

0:19:58 Tom: I'm curious from the from the very beginning I am curious if you think somebody can come out as polyamorous because Because that is fucking nonsense to me.

0:20:03 Eli: Hey poly people yeah perverts coming in here perverts not that close perverts you smell like cum we gotta stop stealing gay people's shit okay it's It's not like being gay and we got to stop acting like it's being gay because I sometimes were like, well, when I had to come out, no, you didn't have, you don't have to come out. Willie Loman didn't Have to come Out. You're just fucking a lot of people and I know that society is mean about it, but it's not like Being gay and they just took away all the trans people's driver's licenses. Like we need to focus up movement drift is a problem and you can't be like I identify as it. No, you Don't identify as part. You just are you just are that I

0:20:45 Thomas: I totally agree in terms of like hijacking the actual when the people who are like it's literally the same or a sexuality that's in the same way definitely but I do think there's you know when you're talking about any behavior that is not the social norm and is sometimes depending on where you are are highly not the social norm I think you can come out in that sense as many things if there's something about yourself that you feel you have to hide and then you know you no longer want to hide it with someone I think that's coming out in a way it's maybe not identical but you don't think there's anything to

0:21:18 Eli: Would except the one to describe the incredibly difficult process of identifying as gay. That would be like if I was like, well, I'm, you know, when I first emancipated myself from monogamy, I would be like, oh, what's the other way people use that word?

0:21:30 Thomas: That oh it says the guy who literally uses slavery all the time Oh, okay. Sure.

0:21:37 Eli: It is sexual slavery, though, is the thing. I use sexual slavery because I want people to understand it is, let me say something brave, open your hearts, podcast listener, worse than actual sexual slavery. It's important that everybody knows that's what I think. So yeah, I don't think you can come out as Polly. I also don't know what you mean by you've always felt that way. Your first crush, you came out and you were like, oh man, I really like Sarah Jensen in my class. But more importantly, I like Sarah Jenison and Abigail Sogenheimer. Like you have to, You were just secretly bearing the burden of having multiple crushes at once. Now, Tom, maybe you could answer this for me. Isn't everyone aware that they're naturally poly, but

0:22:28 Thomas: No. See, I think this is why you're, I disagree with your take here and I'm trying to figure out why. And I think you just said it right there. Not everyone is secretly poly. That's why you feel like there's no coming out.

0:22:30 Eli: Christ the Redeemer? Okay. No!

0:22:39 Thomas: You just think everyone is a thing. And so you're saying there's there's no coming out as that. But for me, it's always been a confusing thing that people cared about that, like about monogamy. And it is something that is different about me than other people. That is something I had to figure out was like, yeah, I just don't care.

0:22:59 Eli: I know the sexual jealousy thing is rare, but everyone's always wanted to fuck multiple people, right?

0:23:04 Thomas: No, no.

0:23:05 Eli: What?

0:23:06 Thomas: See that?

0:23:07 Eli: You guys are doing a fake. You're pulling a prank on old Eli.

0:23:05 Tom: No, no, no. No, 100 percent. No, I think we've talked about this before. Like, no a million percent. No, I can only speak for myself. But for me, no I

0:23:07 Thomas: No, 100 % no. Yeah. Tom doesn't want to fuck anyone. No, just kidding.

0:23:20 Tom: I've. Like it's not like I want something and I'm just holding myself back from doing it like I am not holding myselfback from doing anything I'm doing exactly what I want to do like I'm fulfilling my sexual desire

0:23:22 Eli: He refuses.

0:23:36 Thomas: I love this because we have had this conversation but eli just does not

0:23:40 Eli: I just think it's crazy.

0:23:40 Thomas: Believe you so he can't he can'T fathom

0:23:41 Tom: Right I think that's it I think he can't like he can but I like I sort of get it though

0:23:44 Eli: I only want to eat graham crackers for every meal ever. Okay.

0:23:47 Thomas: It yeah that's why he has this take right now that's why we're having that's he and I disagree on this

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0:24:02 Tom: For me I have exactly what I want and I don't want something different. Anything that I would have that would not be Haley would be less than and is uninteresting to me. So I am not interested in a less than experience. I'm not interested in a person to me, so I already have exactly what I want.

0:24:22 Eli: But if Haley died, you wouldn't be abstinent for the rest of your life.

0:24:29 Tom: Probably not. No, probably not.

0:24:31 Eli: So you're occasionally okay with having. Yeah.

0:24:33 Tom: Most people are serially monogamous. There's a difference between serial monogamy and polyamory. There's a big difference. Most people do not find one person and say, yep, that was my person. Awesome. You know, and they found the first person one time. Yeah.

0:24:36 Thomas: Thing yeah I think it's different yeah that'S different yeah

0:24:36 Eli: Usually it's just a sad old man in a movie for children.

0:24:50 Tom: But like, I think there's a Big difference in serial monogamy and polyamory. I don't think that those things are analogous at all. Yeah, so. All right, because

0:24:55 Thomas: I agree

0:24:56 Eli: I don't understand. Let me explain what I don'T understand. If you understand that after Haley dies, you're going to want to fuck someone else. Why does dying make your dick work on other people yeah why just let your dick work on other people right now in the good times

0:25:06 Thomas: Why does she have to die for you to live?

0:25:15 Tom: Everybody because in the scenario that you posited Haley's dead. That's a a big difference like I it's like not analogous like I don't understand

0:25:23 Thomas: If this were how it worked, you could decide you have a celebrity crush and then never have any real girlfriend because like, oh, that's the person for me. Because they're just as unavailable as like a dead person.

0:25:32 Eli: Get him thomas

0:25:35 Tom: No no I like like if if like if hayley dies then I mean I'll give you an example like there are people I know you are I know you aren't like

0:25:41 Thomas: No, I was agreeing with you, Tom, just to make sure that. Okay. Okay.

0:25:43 Eli: Tell us who you would fuck next after hailey dies he's about to tell us who he fucked tonight who's his second choice is after hailee dies

0:25:49 Thomas: Please be me. Please, please.

0:25:50 Tom: A lot of people who have had a great love in their life for example and then that person dies it's not that they don't fall in love with somebody else but they oftentimes like yes now that other person was really the great love of my life but I just don't want to be alone there's a difference there like where and it is a comparative difference and oftentimes if people are being honest they'll say like yes that is a less than relationship I had that great love I mean you can read it in people's honest letters in journal entries if you're a person who reads journals or diaries that's not an uncommon thing to read

0:26:23 Thomas: That's what I'm going to find in my dad's journal, son.

0:26:25 Tom: So like if hayley were to die would I just decide to be alone I don't know if I would decide tobe alone or not but I I do think that I would have a difficult time not comparing negatively whoever was next. And I think that that would be a really unfair position to put that second or next person in.

0:26:43 Eli: What if they were better

0:26:46 Tom: I honestly can't understand how that could happen. I genuinely don't. Yeah.

0:26:48 Eli: I don't understand how any of it could happen I'm just saying in your fucking crazy little circus world couldn't

0:26:53 Tom: No, I don't, you know, it's like, I can't imagine that that Would Be the Case. You know, I just can't Imagine it. I don' t care about it. Yeah.

0:26:57 Eli: Taller reach stuff on shelf but like keith's height she can always get stuff on high

0:27:01 Thomas: Taller.

0:27:02 Tom: I think a lot of people have, like, if they're being honest, they compare people and are like, yeah, that's a less than experience. So like, I wouldn't choose a less than experience while I had the available better than experience I've got two cars in my garage. I've Got I've got a brand new I

0:27:08 Eli: Shelves

0:27:18 Thomas: I don't know how to respond because I acknowledge that that's how people feel, but also my response would be, well, I don'T only have one experience in my life. I do different different things.

0:27:25 Eli: Exactly sometimes you drive the ferrari sometimes you ride the honda

0:27:30 Tom: Would never choose the Honda Civic.

0:27:30 Thomas: I believe, Tom, and that other people feel this way.

0:27:35 Tom: Yeah, like I don't have any interest in having sex with anybody else. Like it's not something I want and then just don't do so I don' hurt Haley's feelings. That's not like how it works for me. Like I don', I aggressively don't want that. Yeah. Every six months or year year. Yeah.

0:27:45 Eli: Civic

0:27:48 Thomas: We're going to have to have this same conversation on the show every year or two, I think, because Eli just can't understand this.

0:27:51 Eli: Here every couple of six months I need to be because I

0:27:55 Tom: Yeah, he can't. He can't do it.

0:27:55 Eli: Can't process it this is my memento is I and then I change tom's name to like wants to fuck other people and then I wander away well

0:27:58 Thomas: Yeah, it is. It is. And

0:28:04 Tom: I'm very happy. Like there's no sense of like loss or restraint or restriction at all. Like none whatsoever. It's not how. Yeah I just don't think of it that way. And I don't Think of it as sexual slavery like Haley can have sex with other people but then she can't have sex With me right like that's not sexual slavery.

0:28:20 Eli: Well, how come she's the bad wife? How come she can't have other sex with other people?

0:28:25 Tom: Well, because it's not what I want in our life together. See the thing is like you and I've talked about this before like I personally don't want to enter into a relationship where nothing is exclusive and special to the relationship it's not just sex there's lots of things that I want to be our thing together that we hold we've talked about this before that we holds sacred between just us that to me is what makes a relationship different than just buddies sure

0:28:49 Thomas: For some people, that sucks. For me, that's TV shows that you're watching. If you watched it with anyone else, I would kill you. I'd break up. Yeah. That's my one boundary. If there's a show we're actually both watching that I'm really into, that is literally

0:28:53 Tom: Eli we talked about this which you know yeah we talked about this like

0:29:03 Thomas: Unironically that's worse than cheating sexually for me because cheating sexually zero

0:29:07 Eli: Okay. Now, I do have one of those. I thought about this. And it's raising my son.

0:29:10 Thomas: So oh oh okay sure yeah I don't know that's this the right category of thing because it's like that is

0:29:13 Tom: Yeah okay but that I think that that's that's

0:29:17 Eli: No, because that's the thing that, like,

0:29:18 Tom: No if anna said said like I would like to bring this other person into our lives and I would like this person to also be max's dad

0:29:26 Eli: I'd be like, nah,

0:29:21 Thomas: Oh I see yeah yeah for sure yeah all right there you go cool hey congrats man I feel like this is big you found a

0:29:27 Eli: Nah -nah -nah. See? There you go. I found it. So let's talk about this email some more. So this whole thing is he wanted to date this person Who was two presidential administrations younger than him, almost three. And she was like, you're married. And he was like don't worry, there are new magic words that you can throw out into the, you can come out as magical words now and your wife has to let you have an affair.

0:29:34 Thomas: Boundary yeah yeah pretty much

0:29:56 Tom: Well like I want to I want to go all the way back to though and say like I don't care what it is that somebody comes out as the other person who has had a life with you for 15 years where you were one person if you come out as gay if you came out as trans if you Come Out As Polly If You Come Out Is What It's Okay To Be Like Like, hey, I thought for a decade and a half that that wasn't the case. I need some time and I might not actually stick around for that.

0:30:23 Tom: If you fundamentally change who you fucking are, that's totally legitimate and okay. But it's been like weaponized that that is definitionally like transphobic or anti -gay or anti, you know, sex positive or whatever. And it's like, no, I just thought you were a fucking different human being than you are now. And that's okay for you as a person and your personal dignity but maybe that might not be okay for this relationship and that is like embedded in this email is like I don't want to like stifle him or whatever and it's like get the fuck out of here yeah

0:30:57 Thomas: So stupid

0:30:58 Eli: I'm sure I've talked about this on the air before, but I had a childhood friend who the mom was friends with my mom and she realized she was gay at some point in her kids' lives and went off and married a woman. And I never understood why anyone treated that as anything but running away with your secretary. Like the genders were swapped. But other than that, I was just like, yep, no, that's a that's family abandonment.

0:31:06 Thomas: Oh yeah yeah you've talked about this. See, no, I don't understand that. Why would you say that? I don'T get that. What is your point of view? I DON'T understand it. How is that something that's bad, but then everything that Tom's talking about is not possible? I dunno. I

0:31:34 Eli: What because I'm saying like if you're playing by the monogamy rules right the fact that you're having a gay affair doesn't make it a different affair

0:31:44 Tom: I get what he's saying there he's just

0:31:44 Thomas: Think it does because, well, for one, and if, no, it isn't, I'm not saying it's like, okay, for sure. Whenever I hear stories about that, like, well, turns out they were gay, they were trans, they WereWhatever and hadn't come out. Then my My feeling is, oh, OK, well, then that sucks that they either couldn't or didn't have the awareness to be honest about that. But that means that relationship is kind of like null and void, like you're just not. No one was in a relationship with the right factual understanding of what was happening. So therefore, I don't think of it as like cheating exactly.

0:32:17 Tom: Well in the case of this email if I'm taking if I am to believe this email which I don't but if

0:32:22 Thomas: Oh, I Don't. Yeah.

0:32:23 Eli: Because you wrote it you

0:32:23 Tom: I were to believe and you shouldn't either yeah I know I would write this much better if this is slop are you kidding me the other thing if I'm gonna if i're gonna believe this this is a guy who's like yeah I've always known this about myself and you're like all right that just makes you an objectively bad person then because you entered into a relationship knowing the entire time it's not like you came to some realization down the road about who you are and what your fucking needs were whatever nonsense like no you knew the whole time you knew the whole time and you were stood in front of somebody and said here are the promises I'm going to make you presumably they had a monogamous relationship for 15 years so they said like here arethe promises I'll make you and then later we're like I would like to not have those promises be in effect anymore right and that is a bullshit thing to do a super bullshit thing to do I think like you make promises and you fucking keep them that's it or if you can't keep them you peace out because you're like yep can't keep these promises anymore

0:32:24 Thomas: Yeah, it'd be more realistic. Yeah.

0:32:39 Eli: Fucking right new rule no rules yeah

0:33:22 Thomas: At the very least, the whole approach would have to be, okay, I've done a bad. There'd be no, this is so far out of the realm of reasonable. I don't even, there's not even worth talking about this email. Like it's so, it's So far beyond anything real, but in a situation where, and I do think we've, we've had this exact conversation, but I do think there, you know, people change, you know you could be married for 20, 30 years. Like people change in those times or people Maybe who were married 20, 30 years ago when this wasn't as prevalent of a thing or wasn't as known, then, you know, come to like, I think that's all stuff that happens, but like the approach should always be, there should be no expectation that your partner who was under a different impression that they have any obligation to you to like go with you on this thing. That's entirely up to them. This attitude that the fictitious dude has in Tom's email that he wrote, that's just a narcissist. That's just completely wrong in every way.

0:34:20 Tom: And like the element to it as well like that that you see and I it's not like this is like uncommon either like if you poke around online there's a fair amount of like I'm already cheating and I kind of just want permission because the hiding it is annoying and there's logistics involved so how about if I say I'm poly and then I'll wait 37 heartbeats and tell you afterwards oh I found somebody I found a

0:34:42 Eli: Right right oh look at that

0:34:44 Thomas: Well, wouldn't you know it?

0:34:44 Tom: Guy and it was the neighbor and I was at the bus stop and my dick's been inside of her for six months you know yeah so I think there's like like a fair amount of that sort of like hey I can use the goodwill of other people to like want to be accepting and like to want to be

0:34:49 Thomas: They got people on sale today. Wouldn't you now it?

0:35:04 Thomas: And there's no such thing as being genuinely poly and wanting it, but then your partner wants other stuff and you're like, ew. That has nothing to do with, this is just, this isn't even poly. It's just someone wants to fuck fuck other people. That's all it is.

0:35:12 Tom: Positive so

0:35:27 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:35:29 Tom: Then what I was curious about with this email is with you guys like as somebody who who is very happily monogamous, it's a personal value, not a prescriptive value. It's a personal value that I hold. If Haley decided she wanted to be poly, we would have to part ways, right? So that would be like, hey, if that's something you want, we have to part ways. If you were Polly and you were like, hey, I would like to be Polly. But your significant other was like, no, I'm monogamy. Does that mean you have to part ways?

0:35:41 Eli: Right perversion please

0:35:44 Thomas: Probably. Unless you just don't be poly. Yeah.

0:36:04 Eli: Yeah I mean it depends on my end

0:36:05 Tom: Well, I guess that's my question, right? Because I would be unwilling to move from my position of being monogamous because like that's something that's hard for me to write like did eli it's hard for you to wrap your head around my position it's very hard forme to wrap my head around the idea of being like that so important to me that I would rather not be with somebody that I love if I can't also love other people or have sex with other people like I I that's I can t personally I can get there like so I'm curious where you guys land on that like is it like a line where you're like yeah I wouldn't date somebody or

0:36:37 Eli: Yeah I've had to explain that a lot of times in my life and it's it's never fun especially pre -poly being like a thing that was known because let me tell you being in college in 2007 and explaining to people that you didn't believe in like monogamy that was just like hey I'm an asshole from a heartwarming movie before you meet the guy from your hometown who owns a hot chocolate shop and wins your heart. I'm the worst version of that. And I would say it relatively early. I probably said it too early because I would stay in the dating phase. I didn't want someone to be like, what are we? And I'd be like oh, I actually am really enjoying this, but probably not in the way you define really enjoying. So I had that conversation a bunch of times. I mean, I yeah,

0:37:23 Tom: Wouldn't you have to do that like right away before people caught feelings right

0:37:26 Eli: Yeah, I talked talked about it pretty early weirdly the angle that I took was that like when I felt like I did need to hide it as a much much younger person it resulted in a lot of cheating and that was a tremendously painful and unkind thing to do to partners and honestly like the first explorations of polyamory that I really did were just me going there's got to be a better way like me just trying Trying to figure out how to not make people feel horrible. Like, truly, among the worst things I think I've done, and I've done a lot of really terrible stuff, among them are the cheating on people because of the amount of just genuine and unforgivable. There are people who describe the arc of their lives, and God, they deserve so much better, but people who described the arc of their lives at least in part by my cheating problem yeah and how fucking awful that is I mean look I shouldn't be part of anyone's journey let alone a negative part right and so that was a big part of it was me just being like hey this is how I feel and this is the reason I feel it right is like I've I have tried to do this thing I've tried to tell myself that I can just adapt to another person's wants and needs and I cannot and I want you here at this chick -fil -a to be able to tell me that I am weird and you are leaving not

0:38:04 Thomas: That's saying a lot. Yeah yeah yeah.

0:38:53 Tom: Yeah yikes okay all right yeah so it's a hard line like it's not something you would not adapt back for somebody for the right person you could not be

0:39:02 Eli: Early in my life I mean if tomorrow anna was like we're celibate I'd be like fuck it sure right like

0:39:09 Tom: Monogamous celibate not just monogamist

0:39:12 Thomas: It's the same thing for him.

0:39:12 Tom: But celibate jesus

0:39:13 Eli: She could be like I want to cut it off with a hot knife and I'd be like ah man no really wait no really think about no though really think about no I want you to think about it till tomorrow

0:39:28 Thomas: That's you're just describing monogamy now

0:39:32 Eli: And if you want to cut it off tomorrow fine but I've got shit on wednesday I got stuff to do so you gotta tell me no oh yeah

0:39:42 Tom: So yeah so so now in your life something is different than when you were younger do you know what it

0:39:48 Eli: Yeah it's just that my family is more important to me than any of my wants or needs I'll be honest if anna was like I need you to stop sleeping I'd be like I'll do my best I'm gonna I'm gotta but I feel too much. That's how I feel about it. I'd just be like, this is a totally unnatural thing. I hate this. You seem to need this right now. You told me not to eat this week. Okay, here we go. I'm probably going to pass out if you don't let me have an Uncrustable, but your wants are more important than mine. I wouldn't do it because I thought it was a good idea or healthy or fair or kind or not sexual slavery.

0:40:00 Thomas: Eli

0:40:23 Eli: I would just do it because it just matters more.

0:40:23 Thomas: Yeah it's like because might makes right yeah

0:40:28 Eli: Yeah. It just just matters so much more that we get to continue being a family and that everything that we have together than any of my personal wants or needs yeah

0:40:38 Tom: Is so I mean like the long way around is like for the right person you could see yourself being monogamous that I mean that is that is the long way around right like like yeah

0:40:43 Thomas: You just haven't met the right person, Eli. I guess, yeah.

0:40:46 Eli: That's what it is I just haven't found the right one so I'm sorry and I really yeah

0:40:50 Tom: But it's what you just said right like I mean under the right circumstances with the right person you would be willing to do that

0:40:56 Thomas: Eli would be willing to try to make himself miserable and probably fail. Is that what you think monogamy should be?

0:41:02 Tom: Oh do you oh you don't think you would be able to do it no I'm not saying should I don't care about shoulds I think there's like a misconception like I don't care what other people do at all

0:41:04 Eli: Uh I think I could do it now because I'm so horrifying looking let me explain thank you tom miss you get it there was a time I know it's hard hard to imagine. You've seen a picture of me. It was a time where people were like, oh, good looking guy. And now here's the example. I think when I was a younger man, if you were, went into your living room and you turned on the lights and I was standing there naked, you'd be like, Oh no, someone is here to attack me sexually. That's bad. I mean, if you did that today, you'dbe like ,Oh no, my house is haunted. Do you understand?

0:41:17 Thomas: No, I'm with him.

0:41:48 Tom: WHAT

0:41:48 Eli: And that's the difference is I think you would ascribe a supernatural cause to my body in its current state. And so I think it would be much easier because there's no takers.

0:42:02 Tom: So it's oh my god okay so opportunity is the primary driver there

0:42:07 Eli: I think I look

0:42:08 Thomas: It's not the primary driver it's that if you if they put a guy in prison who's addicted to substances he will eventually get over that addiction it doesn't mean that the thing that was driving it the thingthat was drivingit was being in a location you know it's like

0:42:18 Eli: I'm in dick prison, Tom. That's what I'm saying.

0:42:23 Tom: Oh I know I know but like I am just as heterosexual as a person if I have some sex or no sex right the amount of sex I have or who I'm having it with does not have anything to do with me whether or not I'm heterosexual I guess I had thought that for you at least Eli that your polyamorous nature was sort of like built in and not a sort of response to opportunity but I think part of what you're saying is it's it's response to opportunity

0:42:52 Thomas: I think throughout history who never got to have sex or anything with the same gender. It doesn't mean they weren't gay. Yeah, exactly.

0:42:58 Tom: Right and they're still gay as I'm saying I'm saying exactly that are you saying it's just easier to be monogamous because opportunities are low or that you're less no

0:43:05 Thomas: No, I think you're saying the opposite of that, Tom. Yeah. It's like if,

0:43:08 Tom: I'm not I'm saying like you are still polyamorous are you more polyamorous when you have more opportunity

0:43:16 Eli: I feel like it would Be easier to insist on because like the reason I have insisted on polyamory and luckily when when Anna and I met she was like, fuck yeah King and I was like oh nice like it was awesome. But the reason that I have insisted on it in the past is I was like, oh, no, wait, there's this thing that's going to happen. And I think the reason why I would acquiesce now is not because I feel differently, is because I would be less worried about cheating happening. Because like in my life, I'd be like, there is this lunch lady at the university cafeteria and she really gives me the up and downs every time I go by. Like I think I would just be less afraid about making that contract with someone because I wouldn't be worried about breaking it inthe same way.

0:43:57 Eli: I'll say this. When I was of the age where polyamory was sort of a safeguard to cheating for me, I was a lot less under control. I was a lot more mentally ill. I was a lot less medicated. So it's also a big part that I am just more mature now and feel more equipped to keep promises I make even when I disagree with them.

0:44:18 Thomas: I'll be honest. I've hit an either. I don't know if it's age or burnout. I genuinely don't Know which, or if it'S both, I've gotten to the point only like within a year or two where I'm like, Oh, maybe this is how Tom feels where you just like, don't need to do stuff. Stuff. I feel like I could get it now where it's like, oh, I think I probably, I'm exactly kind of what I think what Eli's saying where it is now. I think probably could pull it off if needed, but I also just don't care to, like it's not, it doesn't make any sense to my brain. So it's none. Yes. Yeah. No, my spirit's broken.

0:44:35 Eli: Maybe it's because your spirit is broken, Tom, is what we're saying. Have you considered Considered that you have a sexually broken spirit and that if you were to sit in that hot tub and put on that thumb ring, which I am manifesting for you every day, and I know that's what you want manifested for your family right now, especially in these times, your greatest hope, your greatest hope for your family is to break through those sexual taboos. You should consider it when Haley's better. That's a fun thing for you to start fucking

0:44:52 Tom: It's that yeah that's it yeah yeah yeah

0:45:10 Thomas: Yeah, that's the priority.

0:45:03 Tom: That that's what I need yeah that said my biggest most important things I'm thinking of of right now yeah yeah right yeah that's that sounds

0:45:22 Thomas: That could be one of those weird like bargains you make with the devil or something

0:45:22 Eli: Other people. Okay, wait, she wakes up from the brain surgery and the doctor's like congratulations she was faking the whole time but on the way out oopsie my watch my watch bumped the monogamous part of her brain and if she's not polyamorous she can't do it you're not sticking around

0:45:30 Tom: Great jesus christ if hayley wakes up and is polyamorous is that no of course not

0:45:49 Eli: Hayley I know you don't listen to the shows but if you could wake up and tell tom that you're polyamorus and record it okay

0:45:55 Thomas: Like yeah she does

0:45:54 Tom: She listens to the shows yeah no I I would a thousand percent no I wouldn't I would not I would have one thousand percent leave

0:46:01 Eli: Leave her there in the hospital just

0:46:03 Tom: I mean I would assume she was mentally ill if I if she woke up and said that it's it's antithetical to her nature but like Like, if that was, like, actually a true,

0:46:10 Eli: Put a pillow over her face try again

0:46:12 Tom: Yeah, if that was like actually true, like no bullshit, then like, yeah. We'd have to part ways. I'd be like, yes, sorry. Like, you've changed in a way that is unacceptable to my. It's not. Yeah, we're not doing that later. Of course. Of course, no.

0:46:24 Thomas: Wow so you need to find the right person tom and then you could be poly if he found

0:46:29 Eli: And then you could be

0:46:30 Tom: What?

0:46:30 Thomas: The right person that he cared so much yeah if you found the right person where he's like I love this person so much that if they said they were poly I could do it maybe that's it you haven't found the right one

0:46:39 Eli: Poly you don't love hayley enough hayley test his love you don't have to watch that's a big confusion a lot of people make is they think they gotta watch you don't gotta watch you should because it's fucking awesome but you don't have

0:46:43 Thomas: Yeah that's the thing yeah it's true you should

0:47:00 Eli: TO dear old chance all right gentlemen before we go the other night the waiter asked me how I like my steak and I told him I like myself gentlemen I like mystique like I like winning gentlemen I like mistake like I lack winning arguments with my wife rarely rare

0:47:03 Clip: DEAR OLD DAD

0:47:23 Thomas: Happening I want

0:47:31 Tom: Genuinely terrible

0:47:32 Thomas: To leave all of that in because it was there the joke was terrible

0:47:35 Eli: Rareness with a rarity tea so the problem is the joke I found it was like a guy goes to the waiter and I was like no no I can do this I could I can fucking vamp this bad boy I got this

0:47:35 Thomas: But like what What happened was really, that's

0:47:35 Tom: It's so bad they're old

0:48:33 Eli: It's also not for us though is the thing like thomas the tank engine is for

0:48:38 Thomas: For British kids in the war.

0:48:42 Tom: Work and move some coal around the mountain you dumb lazy shit

0:48:46 Eli: Nobody's talking about the fact that I thought this thought and then wanted to say it out loud on our podcast

0:48:54 Tom: And it was the neighbor and I was at the bus stop and my dick's been inside of her for six months you know

0:49:00 Thomas: They got people on sale today. Wouldn't you know it?

0:49:04 Eli: Not that close perverts you smell LACom.