Ghislaine Maxwell's brother might be the worst person in Epstein world

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:09 Thomas: Welcome to Opening Arguments. This is Vapid Response Wednesday. I think we can safely say this is back to the traditional vapid response, even though it is still Pedophile Response Wednesday in a way. I'm Thomas. That over there is real life immigration attorney, Matt Cameron. How are you doing, Matt?

0:00:25 Matt: We've got a good one for you today, Thomas. We're going to have some fun with a new character has arisen in the D. Glenn Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein saga. So I'm very excited to introduce you to Ian Maxwell.

0:00:36 Thomas: Can't wait. This taking on somebody that hasn't gotten enough attention. Like there's somebody in not gotten the dragging they deserve. Right.

0:00:43 Matt: Wants some attention. I don't think it's the attention we're going going to give him but let's do it I'm feeling it would

0:00:49 Thomas: And of course, producer Lydia Smith, how are you going? She

0:00:51 Lydia: I think what you mean is Lydia bug killer Smith. Before the recording started there, a bug flew by and I said, wow, this is a really handy tool I have here that that Thomas bought me for Christmas, which is my gavel related to gavel gavel. And I just

0:01:07 Thomas: Laid down the fucking law on a bug like death penalty death penalty court

0:01:11 Lydia: Smashed it. It.

0:01:11 Matt: You say you you gabbled it out is what you did gavel out

0:01:16 Lydia: But it was perfect because it was going to drive me insane if it was around here the entire time I was recording. So yeah, thanks. Merry Christmas to me.

0:01:22 Thomas: These are death penalty cases in bug court that's for sure uh wow and

0:01:27 Lydia: I'm doing great. I'm doing great because I killed a bug. It deserved it. And yeah.

0:01:30 Thomas: Let that be a lesson to all of you We'll be, Matt and I will be on our best behavior for this one.

0:01:38 Matt: I'm three time zones away from lydia's gavel feeling good about that

0:01:41 Lydia: Exactly. Better watch yourself.

0:01:42 Thomas: But nowhere is safe. Yeah. That's so funny. All right. Well, let's see. I think we can just get to it. And we've got our patrons to thank at patreon.com/law. And I love doing this. Love doing the shout outs. These are the $5 and above supporters who get a weekly shout out, assuming we do it that week. But we do it most weeks and they change their names or they don't and they're these classic ones that we love and remember from years going years back so it's always a lot of fun patreon .com slash law here we go our first third we're gonna thank my house is a mess but I read a lot dominic gillespie matthew cutler autistic twitch streamer that Vetinari for America 2028 - One Man, One Vote. Unremarkable. Your mom fell in a hole. Still funny.

0:02:29 Matt: Will

0:02:30 Thomas: Oh boy. Amina, Donna Treadway, mother of inheritance. Protect trans kids. My friend Austin says hi. He runs Arch Linux, by the way. Is that for us? I don't know. But if it's for us, it could be another like show. But high back. And I don' t know what Arch Linux is.

0:02:30 Matt: Always work short

0:02:39 Lydia: I don't know. Hi, Austin. Yeah. Yep.

0:02:49 Thomas: It has Linux with two I's, which I've never seen also but uh hey uh feel free to message us and explain or be like that was meant for some way cooler people and we'll be like yeah it's the the wave thing like they did the wave and someone's actually behind us we're like uh yeah I I was waving to someone behind you actually mike lapinski lonely tylenol oh wow that's a I like that palindrome um yeah lonely tylenol lonely wow lonely tylanol that's great I feel like someone could iterate on that like if lonely tyranol is the the foundation you know you keep that in the middle and then there's there could be other things you know at

0:03:01 Lydia: So embarrassing. Yeah, oh my God, yeah. What does it is that is that right? Wow. Interesting.

0:03:17 Matt: And simple yeah

0:03:28 Lydia: Something you can tack on on either side.

0:03:30 Thomas: Like race car lonely tyrenol race car or something you know like how

0:03:32 Lydia: Maybe like something about autism also because like then we could like shove it back at the trump administration for something I don't know someone's

0:03:36 Thomas: I guess but boy that autism trying to do a palindrome with the word word autism. It's like you're, it's like you're a rookie palindrome maker or something. Cyanitis, if I tear pants, do I pay pants tariff? That almost looks like a thing, but it sounds like a palindrome, but it's just, it's not.

0:03:43 Lydia: Gonna figure it out oh like it should be a palindrome

0:03:52 Matt: Fun callback though fun oa callback for footnote

0:03:59 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, from Matt's pants tarif. Confusing. We'll never know the real answer for the pants tarip. Gray poupondrance of the evidence. Still love it. Apprentice of adventure, Charlie Charlie Kelly, attorney at Birdlaw, probably a real person, and Nick Fish. Thanks so much for making the show happen. We will now take our first break and then we will get into really an amuse -douche for the ages, right? I can't wait. All right, it is time for our Moose Douche and I see a clip we've loaded up here. What are we looking at?

0:04:24 Lydia: That

0:04:32 Matt: We get to the main moose deuce here, I want to make sure we frame this properly by hearing from Sarah Ransom, who of course is one of the most unspoken survivors of the Epstein -Maxwell trafficking. And I just want you to keep in mind what she's about to say before we hear Aaron Aaron Maxwell say anything.

0:04:49 Thomas: I just want to call out Matt pranking me so hard where he's like, we got in a Moose douche and I'm saying, all right, let's look at these two idiots. How are we going to roast these people? So stupid. He's like these are the victims of Jeffrey Epstein.

0:05:03 Matt: We're being nice to Sarah. Yeah.

0:05:04 Thomas: Oh, okay. Thanks matt yeah that's trying to get me canceled okay here we go uh go all

0:05:04 Lydia: Some of the bravest people ever yeah

0:05:12 Matt: Want to be sure that everybody remembers, but we'll talk more about who Gail Wayne Maxwell was, but I want to make sure they remember exactly what she was up to and why her brother is so out of his mind in the things he's going to say here. So let's just frame this.

0:05:25 Clip: A very sick woman. Ghislain enjoyed humiliating us. You could see the enjoyment in her face. Ghislane Maxwell has consistently denied all sexual abuse and trafficking allegations against her. Finally, in 2007, Ransom says she escaped. Fearing Epstein would kill her, she flew to the UK to join her mother. She sued Epstein and Maxwell in 2017.

0:05:55 Matt: That's good for there. Just want to be sure to get that voice out before we hear from anybody else, because we're going to be hearing way too much from a rape defender. So I want to make sure that we heard from Sarah Ransom first. So let's take a look at Ian Maxwell, but just remember, keep that in mind, what she's saying about how Glenn Maxwell is not only personally and legally responsible for a lot of Jeffrey Epstein's crimes, made him possible, but actually seemed to enjoy herself. That's a very important point as we're hearing the rest of what Ian has to say here. So let'S start off with Ian Maxwell talking about, unfortunately, talking about Virginia Gufrey, who of course was one of the most outspoken survivors. Virginia Gufray's book, so this is perfect timing. I want to tell you a little bit about it as we go here.

0:06:34 Matt: But he also, well, I don't know that you read the book, but he knows about the book. So he's going to have some things to say. We've played some really awful stuff on this show, but this is really douchey. This is about as bad as it gets in terms of things you can say in public. Public. So let's cue it up.

0:06:50 Thomas: I just I feel like matt the amuse douche is a place for you know an An old idiot trying to buy a pierogi or, you know, like, it's like, here's the amuse douche. It's Pol Pot. And you're like, okay, that's really funny. I don't.

0:07:05 Matt: It's just somebody who really likes Polpad. His brother.

0:07:06 Lydia: Just a bite -sized douche

0:07:08 Thomas: Somebody likes. Yeah. Okay. Okay. We're still working out the kinks of the segment. That's true. There isn't. When we're talking about, like the worst people in the world doing the worst things in the world, it'S not going to fit the format always. Cause like, but it's, we have to talk about this and I'm so glad we are. Okay.

0:07:21 Matt: I will, but just to flag this, he will get his comeuppance at the end of this. This is a right wing British talk show that he's going on. And even this guy is going to be disgusted by what he's gonna say. So yeah, that's

0:07:29 Thomas: Awesome all right let's play here is

0:07:33 Clip: That's a good thing. That's you're belief. You're probably aware that the family of one of Epstein's victims has asked Trump, Donald Trump, not to consider pardoning your sister. The family member of the late Virginia Giffray saying Ghislaine Maxwell is a monster who deserves to rot in prison for the rest of her life. As her brother, how do you respond?

0:07:56 Clip: Well, I think I know who the monster is here. It certainly isn't my sister. Virginia Giuffre was a consummate liar from start to finish. And this is most conspicuously revealed when she had alleged that she had slept with Professor Alan Dershowitz, maintained it for many years and then had to withdraw and desist. That's the first major point and perhaps the second crucial point is that the law enforcement elected not to call Virginia Dufresne to the trial of my sister, the most voluble, perhaps best known of her accusers. And why was that? Because she would have been eviscerated by the defence. So that's my take on her.

0:08:30 Thomas: That one sorry

0:08:56 Clip: What is the physical condition?

0:08:57 Thomas: May

0:08:55 Matt: Enough. That's more than enough. Yeah. So, yeah, I think we've talked about this multiple times now about how the Dershowitz, she maintained for years that that she'd been trafficked to Dershowitz. And as a matter of law, we're going to remind everybody that she did sign a statement saying that she may have been mistaken. That was about how she phrased it.

0:09:11 Thomas: Have been missed was that the actual wording yeah

0:09:13 Matt: I'll find the actual wording, but it's not far from that. And it was about as tepid as it could be, which is kind of their thing. Yeah. So, I mean, it's just like, that's the best you you're leading with the Dershowitz?

0:09:16 Thomas: After harassment for years right if my sister's so guilty then why did her accuser get bullied into saying okay maybe I made might have made a mistake after you harassed her for years. Checkmate idiots.

0:09:39 Matt: Literally, I now recognize I may have made a mistake in identifying Mr. Dershouitz. Someone that she said, yeah,

0:09:44 Thomas: What does that even have to do? Oh. And so her brother's point is like, see, therefore she knows nothing like that would mean none of the other stuff is true. Like, okay. First off, I don't, I, I think my position is firmly that especially once you've dealt with the legal system in any way, shape or form, the amount that someone can be harassed and, And and the amount of cost that you could be staring down, it makes all the sense in the world to me why someone would sign a statement like that. But even if we grant that, let's say that she made a mistake and actually it was some other old pierogi loving idiot who, you know, who essentially what's the specific allegations against Dershowitz? Dershowitz, I don't remember.

0:09:48 Lydia: She lied about that so yeah so she's a liar yeah

0:09:50 Matt: She took it back. Yeah, yeah. Again, allegedly that they had sex several times. I mean, I shouldn't even call it sex. It was the, well, right. Yeah. But I mean that's, yeah.

0:10:34 Thomas: That they had sex or she was raped or it was like sex at the behest of.

0:10:40 Matt: That she was directed to.

0:10:40 Thomas: So I actually just not familiar with the full allegations. I only remember the massage with the underpants thing with him. So.

0:10:48 Matt: I mean again, Again, it's not in her book because she had to withdraw it, but generally the tone of her book is that she was told that she going to be doing these things and she did them. And we'll talk more about her and kind of how she came to this, but yeah.

0:11:00 Thomas: So. So to finish the point, if the best case for your sister, Ghislaine Maxwell's brother, if the bestcase is, well, one of the victims might have been mistaken in identifying an old white guy that she had sex with or whatever, you know, that's the best you can do. That doesn't even say anything about, about the entire situation.

0:11:20 Matt: And he's got an entire column about Geoffrey that we're going to read parts of, not the whole thing. It's not worth the whole thing. But I thought this was a good introduction to Ian Maxwell because he's straight up calling telling one of the people who's been most willing and bravest and is unfortunately no longer with us as of last fall to speak out about this stuff. He's calling her a monster out of all the people involved in this story. She's the monster.

0:11:41 Thomas: I know who the monster is.

0:11:42 Matt: Yeah, we got a couple of them to choose from here. One of them's dead. Yeah. And just a quick stinger though on the second part of this, I had to play what happens when he gets called out on this.

0:11:52 Thomas: Yeah, right. I'm excited to see, uh, this. Here, here we go.

0:11:56 Clip: Of things could happen. I'm hopeful. Let me finish. While I'm grateful for your time, a lot of my listeners are sending me notes. They think it's a pretty low blow to slander someone who's dead and not here to respond. Virginia Giuffre, how would you defend that action, Mr Maxwell? Well my sister's been banged up for five years it is very very largely due to the actions lies of this woman who has destroyed my sister life and other lives with her lives including that of prince andrew and other young women whom she recruited for epstein I shed no tear for virginia And

0:12:41 Matt: Yeah. You didn't have to say that, man. You just did not have to go that far. It's so bad. I mean, mean, I feel bad almost like playing his words, but you have to hear him talk before we read his pieces.

0:12:42 Thomas: An asshole. Well, but it's good to hear him defend Prince Andrew. Cause then that really, that no one could, uh you know, debunk him better than him there. Like, oh, okay and also Sauron. He had some good points, you know? It's like, okay, I think maybe you're full of shit, dude.

0:12:51 Matt: It's perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's just trying to bring people together. Yeah so yeah, well, we got another quick one here. Again, I don't want to spend too much time listening to him, but since we're going to be reading his words and the pieces are pretty short, let's play the next one here, this is a more recent interview and this is only a week ago, I think, with The Telegraph, and he is still on his bullshit.

0:13:25 Thomas: Oh, was that an older one that we had played before?

0:13:28 Matt: Yeah, that wasn't two, that was a couple of years ago.

0:13:30 Thomas: Okay. Gotcha. Wow. All right.

0:13:33 Clip: It's entirely possible to my mind that Ghislaine did not know the scale, the length, the whole shooting match that we now know to be the case.

0:13:40 Thomas: Wait, is that him?

0:13:42 Matt: It's still him.

0:13:43 Clip: I think she admitted to ordering massages for him, but from women who were over age. Certainly the whole underage pedophilia aspect of this is entirely unknown to her and alien to her nature anyway. But, Mr Maxwell, and I'm conscious, by the way, that we're speaking to you, you are not on trial here. Sure. But I'm just going to suggest that so many women have come forward to suggest that it was Ghislaine who procured them, pimped them, on behalf of Epstein. And because we now have these two Eiffel Tower -sized tranches of documents documents sort of really laying bare the true extent of Epstein's connections, depravity and so on, that it's very, very difficult to escape the conclusion. I mean, it's either Ghislaine is right or all the victims who accuse her are wrong. Okay,

0:13:43 Matt: He's aged.

0:13:44 Thomas: He looks so different. Sure.

0:14:03 Matt: Yeah.

0:14:10 Thomas: But you do suck. Yeah.

0:14:46 Clip: Let's deal with, I'd like to make one point first about the release of documentation and then we will come to your question.

0:14:46 Thomas: That... Oh, yeah.

0:14:56 Clip: There's been I mean, roughly three and a half million pages have been released since August, I think, of last year. The reason I want to stop and talk about that for a second is because it

0:15:09 Lydia: The other three million will clear her name.

0:15:11 Clip: Is perhaps the most compelling reason why Ghislaine decided not, or on advice, not to speak to Congress, because she's not had access to any of these pages, except what she's seen in the press. She has no computer.

0:15:25 Lydia: Why should she?

0:15:25 Matt: She's in prison.

0:15:28 Clip: She's written to the judge to request a computer so that she can go with the dates

0:15:30 Thomas: Well, and she's clearly innocent. I didn't know she She didn't have a computer.

0:15:34 Clip: On which he's asked for a response and so on.

0:15:35 Matt: This is brilliant. Now, if you're getting the idea, but I just wanted to share that a little bit.

0:15:37 Thomas: I wasn't sure how much she wanted to play.

0:15:40 Matt: Honestly, I'm kind of losing stomach for hearing his voice anymore. There's another clip where he basically blames the victims and says it's...

0:15:45 Thomas: Man, you've committed to it. We have to do the things that you pick to do. I'm curious what his answer to this question is. I want to know what this answer is. Why did we stop it here? Okay. His answer is she doesn't have a computer, so she couldn't have done it.

0:15:46 Lydia: You you can't bail.

0:15:59 Matt: And of course, he's going to imply that obviously what the interviewer just said is correct, that they're all lying. And I just want to point out too, when he was talking about how you can't even trust you because you didn't testify, there were 96 other women that identified that didn't testify in Ghislaine Maxwell's trial. There's only so much time to do a trial. They picked four and they used those. But that's how how trials work.

0:16:16 Thomas: And refresh my memory. Did they get her? Or did she...

0:16:21 Matt: She is still famously in prison, yeah. And one of our favorite episodes with Liz Skeen, yeah, and

0:16:26 Thomas: Imagine being like, the convicted criminal being like, well, there's one witness that they didn't ask to testify. So I think she's innocent. So what you're saying, hold on, let me rephrase what you were saying, Ghislaine's brother. You're saying they had so many witnesses that they could afford to just be like, we don't need these ones to testify and she was found guilty and she's in prison right now, but she didn't do it. Is that what you're saying?

0:16:35 Lydia: So odd, man.

0:16:37 Matt: She's lying because she didn't testify, so yeah, yeah right.

0:16:51 Matt: Yeah, his protestations, it's incredible, it's incredibly. But yeah, just remember the episode we did with Liz Skeen where we went through Ghislaine Maxwell's interview with Tom Blanche, which we're going to be talking about in one of these pieces.

0:16:59 Thomas: Man. Yeah.

0:17:01 Matt: Just one of my favorite episodes in a while, but just, I mean, you'll see see the similarities between the two of them. They're both completely clueless.

0:17:07 Thomas: And, and well, clueless. I think they're liars. I was just going to say, yeah, like I, when we first went through that, I didn't know that much about Ghislaine and I honestly, I Didn't know much about Epstein. It's just, hasn't been something. And then this was a while ago. We did this, right? When was was that interview? Gosh, it's months ago.

0:17:10 Matt: Well, yeah, it's that too, but out of touch.

0:17:25 Matt: Once again, yeah. We'll have to link to it.

0:17:26 Thomas: And going into it as someone who didn't know much about it, she's very convincing in terms of like, oh, I didn't Know any of this was going on. And then now that we see all the evidence and, and I, you know, we knew she was full shit then, but like to a, to a naive listener, it was like, wow. And it bothers me all the more that it's like, oh, so not only are you guilty, you're that good of a liar that you're in, like you're willing to to debase yourself that much. You're willing to lie that much and you're guilty of this stuff. It's like, okay, you're even worse than I thought. And that we should apply that to this old asshole. Like he said, he has every privilege going for them in that he's an old British white guy. So he has this air of credibility, but it's a good reminder that old British white guys can be completely full of shit. Like just lying to your face.

0:18:15 Lydia: Well, I mean, their dad famously was stealing from a pension fund for one of his companies to keep his other company from going going into bankruptcy and ended up owing hundreds of millions of pounds. And yeah, yeah. And they did.

0:18:30 Thomas: That's a lot. Holy

0:18:33 Matt: 500 million to be precise, approximately. Yep.

0:18:35 Lydia: A lot. A lot.

0:18:36 Matt: Half a billion pounds.

0:18:35 Thomas: Shit oh

0:18:37 Lydia: And he they they spent 10 years investigating all the things that he was up to. And it was post his death. He walked off a boat, basically. They don't know exactly what happened. They think maybe he was going to the bathroom naked, which apparently is something that he often did, like off the deck of the boat. And then he disappeared and they found him in the Atlantic a few days later. Yeah, they found Him.

0:19:04 Thomas: They found him no I didn't know that hmm

0:19:06 Lydia: Yeah. So, you know, this is a guy who's like, he was committing financial crimes, corporate crimes and stuff for many, many years, decades decades and decades and even back in the 70s there there was a an investigation about his activities saying that like he has no no one should be putting him at the head of a public facing company he should not be in charge of anybody's money at all and then he became in charge of people's money and uh squandered a lot of it

0:19:32 Thomas: What

0:19:35 Matt: Yeah specifically the Daily Mirror. I just want to point out because that's going to become relevant. And also for some reason, Ian Maxwell loves to remind everybody that his father did all of this in the course of defending his sister. I'm not sure why. We will see. He's going raise it. And he himself was charged after his father's death and acquitted, we have to point out.

0:19:47 Lydia: That's weird and acquitted yeah Yeah.

0:19:52 Matt: Yeah, so I want to make sure we... There wasn't enough to...

0:19:52 Thomas: What was he charged with

0:19:54 Matt: Some of the same crimes with the pension stuff, but there wasn't have to prove that he knew what was going on, I think.

0:19:55 Lydia: Fraud. Yeah. Yeah, it was Ian and then their brother, Kevin, as well. And yeah, their accountant.

0:20:03 Matt: That's fine. Well, we've got some Ian Maxwell pieces to get on to. I want to look at his entire body of work in The Spectator. We're not going to read every one of these pieces, but it just gets worse and worse. So buckle up.

0:20:08 Thomas: Wait matt well that's a good time to take a break and then we're going to get into the written word of this douche we've seen the a different medium uh by which this lying douche communicates. So all that after the break. But of course, we've got to read our second batch of patrons who bring you this douche. No, they they bring you the show where we can give this asshole the attention he deserves.

0:20:21 Lydia: His entire body of work. Right.

0:20:42 Thomas: Thank you to unfrozen caveman lawyer, a negative phenomenon pining for the fjords. You got to fight for your right to ex parte. Jay sank. David Souther vehicular man's laughter, reluctantly changing his blinker fluid. Nunk pro chunk. Uh, wasn't it? Nunk pro tank or whatever.

0:21:01 Lydia: Non -pro -chunk. Okay. Okay.

0:21:03 Matt: That. Buy more for a tank. Yes.

0:21:06 Thomas: Yeah. So it's Nunk per chunk for the chunk system that we have.

0:21:07 Matt: Keep it going. That's a good one.

0:21:10 Thomas: Yeah, or chunk pro. Yeah。 The blind squirrel has been crushed, crushed by these chunks. We got two chunk related ones in a row. Love it. Today's episode is brought to you by the letter and and something I can't read. Cavalry. Why do I always say that? Cavalery?

0:21:09 Lydia: For the chunking system yeah

0:21:15 Matt: So yeah, chunk as them.

0:21:28 Thomas: Cavallery? It's spelled weird.

0:21:28 Lydia: I don't know you've done it a couple

0:21:31 Thomas: It's not, it's, yeah.

0:21:31 Lydia: Of times now it's not always that you do it it's just been the last couple times

0:21:34 Thomas: It is it, okay, it is like naval, no, yeah, what is the word that my brain is looking at? But it's not cavalry, because it ends with an I. It's just like, just an I, C -A -V -A L -R -I, like, what is that? I don't know. Somebody tell me. Patron right in uh thomas freeman cajun killer chris simpson gavelhead chucking away anonymous akilah mark schultz and abolish ice love it all right we'll take a break and then we'll get to uh the articles all right what are we looking at here Matt you

0:21:43 Lydia: Not a why we're

0:22:09 Matt: Right. Right. This is The Spectator, the British publication consistently associated with conservatives in the UK. And this is Ian Maxwell's entire published author page in The Spectateur. I just wanted to see if you can notice the theme. There's one outlier here, the second story, but yeah, just like, skip that, but just look and see every one of these headlines is about his sister. It just keeps going. We're going to touch on every one of these pieces so I don't read them all right now.

0:22:25 Thomas: Know Sarkozy okay wow how my sister Ghislaine beat the Epstein conspiracy theories

0:22:38 Lydia: It's also like constant too it'd be one thing if he's only written like six times ever but it's

0:22:45 Thomas: We got a big gap yeah okay so we got yeah 2025 to 2022 22.

0:22:48 Lydia: But it is a lot how

0:22:51 Thomas: Yeah. Tonight she was denied justice. No, I think she got, she got some.

0:22:54 Lydia: Do you have so many different they're not different I guess is the point right it's just different headlines essentially

0:23:01 Matt: They're very similar. He does repeat himself, which is why we're going to cut some of this, but he's not a good writer. I just want to say that upfront. He's all over the place. There's some really funny stuff in here that's just non -sequiturs. I assume that the spectator has an editor or some kind of somebody who reads things before they're published, but maybe they just leave him alone I don't know yeah

0:23:20 Thomas: Just let him go. Just give him, give him.

0:23:21 Matt: Let's just let him cook all right so let's start uh chronological order I'm going to start with about the truth about my sister we're just going to read a bit of this yes

0:23:30 Thomas: The first one. So we're, we're going back to

0:23:31 Matt: We're going to we're gonna start in 2021 and we'll just work our way up yeah so you can see the progression here uh

0:23:33 Thomas: 2021. Wow. Oh

0:23:37 Lydia: All the mainstream media's pronunciation of my sister's name has has been about as accurate as their coverage of her. No, it's not Gislaine. It's Guylaine. Firmly a French name, it was my mother, Betty's reposte to my father's choice of the name Kevin for my younger brother. My mother is all too often written out of the Maxwell story, but in fact, she was the major influence on all our lives. That's partly because of her loving nature, but also because my father was so seldom present in our childhood he was an incessant traveler and his many interests kept him away I don't care why why ian

0:23:43 Thomas: Repost, yeah, yeah Yeah.

0:23:52 Matt: Repost.

0:24:04 Thomas: Yeah.

0:24:17 Matt: Yeah. And why are you

0:24:18 Lydia: Yeah

0:24:18 Matt: Bringing mom into this? I guess he's really intent on saying that people think that she takes after her father, but actually she takes after her mom. Why?

0:24:20 Lydia: Which is honestly crazy I mean I like

0:24:29 Matt: He says this several times.

0:24:29 Lydia: From what I understand her mother like their mother essentially had no identity that was the expectation of robert maxwell that like she served him and his purpose and that's why she had nine kids she didn't have a career she didn'T do anything like that and then when he died she finally published a memoir where she talked about like everything that happened and she's like I finally feel like I've been able to process these horrible things like losing her children when they're very young because I just wasn't ever really allowed to do that at the time um so anyway

0:24:57 Thomas: So it's like, she's more like my mom who helped my dad with the crime, almost like trafficked the crimes to my dad in a way.

0:25:05 Lydia: And epstein was more like my dad yeah uh betty was determined to maintain our french identities we all have dual british and french nationality and that's why if glaine had had any thought she might be arrested she could have left after Epstein died and gone to France from where there is no extradition to America wow

0:25:23 Matt: Let's... So he's going to mention this again. I just want to point out that she was denied bail, even though she tried to put up like $24 million because she was specifically found to be a flight risk for this exact reason. Because it's true. France won't extradite. And yeah, this is not a defense. Yeah, she could have left after Epstein died, and she probably should have.

0:25:41 Thomas: So far we've got like her name's being mispronounced. Okay, cool.

0:25:44 Lydia: Interesting

0:25:46 Matt: And she could have fled. She did try to flee, by the way. She went to New Hampshire, which might as well be France for her. She was hiding out in a mansion. And, yeah, she probably should have left the U.S., but that's not my problem. We're just going to skip a bit. We'll get on to the intense sympathy.

0:26:01 Lydia: We We all have intent sympathy for for those who are victims of abuse, yet throughout the trial, Ghislaine has been loudly maligned.

0:26:04 Thomas: Well, some of us do.

0:26:11 Lydia: Has been loud. Oh, sorry. It's this copy paste over here. Has been loudly Maligned.

0:26:18 Matt: And she's just Just to summarize something we're going to skip, because again, there's a lot of complaints about the Metropolitan Detention Center where Epstein was also held. It's not a good place. No doubt, it's not good place, there are a lot people held there. But he makes a point of saying that Robert Maxwell lost his parents and his family in Auschwitz. He acknowledges that the Metropolitan and detention center is not Auschwitz, so that's a good start. Yeah,

0:26:43 Thomas: So, okay, so just to finish that, these detractors include those who have not been called as witnesses and whose claims have not been tested in court under oath. Yeah, again. So when was she convicted? Is this before she was convicted or something? Okay. But it says during the trial, certain media accounts have suggested that the prosecution has fumbled its case, but this is to perpetuate the trope of Glenn's guilt in the court of public opinion. This narrative does not admit the possibility that the government has simply not had the evidence. Anyway, update. There should be an update right here. Oh, they did in fact have the evidence.

0:27:18 Lydia: Man.

0:27:18 Matt: Turns out she was convicted not too much later.

0:27:22 Thomas: That, that didn't age well. Again, I can, if, if the government can convict your sister with two witnesses tied behind their back or something, you know, that's worse. You see how that's worst, right?

0:27:31 Matt: This is the one I wanted to read the least of. It's not very interesting, but I just want to give you the tone, what he's doing, the one we just did. The parts we read very interesting, but there's just a lot of excess. He just goes on and on. So we can go on to the next one, which, So this is Ian Maxwell's take on The American Justice System. I thought it was particularly pertinent to what we're talking about here. So let's just give it a quick read.

0:27:36 Thomas: What one? Oh, I see. Yeah. I All right. What have we here?

0:27:55 Lydia: Right there is a cartoon doing the rounds this week that shows two women having a drink one says to the other my dream is to travel back in time her friend replies just book a ticket to the usa no doubt the cartoonist had in mind the topical issues of the supreme court's overturning of Roe v. Wade and it's striking down New York's law requiring, quote, quote proper cause to carry guns in public. But it could equally apply to a federal court's decision this week to impose a 20 -year sentence of imprisonment on a 60 -year -old woman, my sister Ghislaine. This cruel sentence arises from her conviction at trial six months ago and follows two years of incarceration in the medieval Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn. The judicial process that followed had one objective, and that was to convict her. Based on

0:28:14 Thomas: But what if it was instead talking about convicting a horrible person? Yeah.

0:28:18 Matt: Yep. You got it. Because so far, I agree with you, Ian Maxwell.

0:28:32 Thomas: Oh, boy. Yeah.

0:28:55 Lydia: A manifestly

0:28:56 Thomas: I mean, usually they, yeah. I

0:28:57 Matt: That's how prosecutions work.

0:29:01 Lydia: Process, the sentence is a genuflection by a politically appointed judge to a mob whipped up by an embarrassed Attorney General, William Barr, who was denied Epstein when he died on his watch. Following his death, Ghislaine became a replacement for Epstein.

0:29:17 Matt: Let's skip out a little.

0:29:20 Lydia: The evidence is clear that Ghislraine believed herself to be free of guilt. Had she even suspected that she might be arrested, she would have fled beyond the reach of the U .S. legal system to France, of which she is a citizen, from where she would've fought to clear her name.

0:29:29 Matt: This again. No.

0:29:35 Lydia: Also, fought to clean her name? No way.

0:29:33 Thomas: Yeah, man. I get that. The evidence is clear that she believed herself to be free of guilt. Okay. I don't, I don't care.

0:29:42 Matt: She would have done the Roman Polanski thing for the rest of her life. He's not trying to clear his name. He's just hanging out in France.

0:29:46 Lydia: He's just living his life pretending like none of that's actually real.

0:29:50 Thomas: He, uh. He, you know, she, Adnan and OJ before he died could go find the real killers.

0:29:54 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Her good reputation was eviscerated following her arrest in a TV spectacular, a press conference organized by the FBI and Barr's Department of Justice. Denied bail, it left my sister guilty in the eyes of the world months before the trial itself began. Yeah. The judicial process that followed had one objective, and that was to convict her. Professional accusers who have made millions of dollars were allowed free reign to make vicious statements that would have been struck down for contempt of court in the U.K.

0:30:20 Thomas: My God. Come on. Who, who?

0:30:20 Matt: Professional.

0:30:27 Lydia: Professional accusors.

0:30:27 Thomas: Give me, give me an example. Give me an example of a professional accuser who's made millions of dollars.

0:30:33 Matt: Who had a good time doing this and made a lot of money?

0:30:34 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah, this, like, false flag idea is so stupid.

0:30:38 Matt: Virginia Dufresne talks a lot about what she went through just for coming out and all of those. I mean, it was hell for her.

0:30:39 Thomas: Weird that he, yeah, yeah.

0:30:44 Lydia: I believe it. Yeah. Significant exculpatory evidence was excluded from presentation to the jury as one pre -trial defense motion after another was denied. Take it up on appeal, then. I mean, I don't know what to tell you. Highly contentious judicial directions to the jury during the trial itself were preceded with despite strenuous defense objections. We also know, of course, that at least one juror, by his own admission, lied on the jury form and improperly swayed a hung jury in favor of conviction.

0:31:06 Matt: How it works. Yeah

0:31:16 Lydia: I don't think we know that piece of it, right? I think we know that there was the, yeah

0:31:16 Thomas: Hold on. That's a, that seems important.

0:31:21 Matt: That was more of a may have. Yeah it was about whether they had been sexually abused themselves and apparently somebody did lie or misrepresented that he had not been, which it's a hard thing to admit to a court to discuss. So I don't know, but right.

0:31:28 Lydia: On the jury form. But I didn't know, I knew that piece of it, but I don' t know that we know that that person is responsible for rallying the votes.

0:31:48 Matt: No, he actually said that he shared with the jury that people who've been through sexual abuse have trouble with memory, which is true. And he's not an expert, but at the same time, that's his experience. But he did have an interview at some point with the independent talked about this. But yeah, I don't agree that that's enough to kill the trial, the outcome.

0:32:07 Thomas: Well not only that, I mean if, so do you have to systematically automatically exclude people who were sexually abused or something from these

0:32:14 Matt: No, but you need that information to decide if you're going to strike them. So certainly you could still let someone on who'd been through that themselves.

0:32:16 Thomas: Gotcha I just want to make sure because it's like that would skew your jury pool wouldn't it I mean it's in the same way that they don't let people who don't believe in the death penalty on for death penalty cases or whatever I think it's stupid like it you should let those people they're part of society They are part of your peers.

0:32:35 Matt: Sure, yeah. But you can imagine if you'd been hit by a drunk driver three years ago and are still recovering and you're getting a case like that, you need to know that. That's a very important kind of thing. Yeah, we'll go further.

0:32:45 Lydia: Granted immunity from prosecution in the subsequent inquiry, he could say whatever he wanted to paint his unworthy actions in a favorable light. The whole process stinks from beginning to end. Barr's victimization of Ghislaine would not be tolerated in Britain. OK.

0:33:03 Matt: Yeah. So we can skip that. He's just talking about all the money they got, it doesn't matter, and then let's finish it up.

0:33:09 Lydia: What Ghislraine said about Jeffrey Epstein in her statement at her sentencing applies equally to my sister. The impact on all those who were close to him has been devastating. Dating and today those who even knew him briefly or never met him but were associated with someone who did have lost relationships jobs and had their lives derailed we her family will never stop fighting for justice and I believe that eventually galene will get her life back through proper due process that so far she has been denied yeah

0:33:37 Matt: Incredible. Incredible. To say that she's another victim of Epstein, especially now when we can see those emails that she cc'd on all this stuff where they're talking about procuring girls, she is herself very actively aware of everything that's going on. She tried to maintain whatever distance that she could, but it's been blown apart I think by the most part for these releases.

0:33:58 Matt: But just, I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I've got two younger brothers and there's a lot I would do to defend my brothers. I do love them, but, uh, I would not defend any of this. I don't think I would talk to them again if they were convicted of this and

0:34:10 Thomas: Not publicly. I think there could be a difference between if someone that you loved did something horrible, I can understand trying to rationalize or trying to see it from their point of view and, you know, whatever. But, like, just fucking do that privately, man. Like, it'd be like, yeah... I, I, you know, and, and if, if anything, I could imagine trying to humanize the mistakes like that.

0:34:24 Matt: I'm not going to write. Yeah. Yeah.

0:34:35 Thomas: Like I could, I can imagine being like, yeah, you know, I guess it's easy to lose track of like how horrible the thing you're doing is when it gets normal. I don't know. I could see trying to like, you know, that's like the best I could maybe understand is if you're trying to humanize, like, here's how this accelerated. And, you know, I, I think she recognizes that she did a bad thing now but like

0:34:56 Lydia: We've had a a lot of tough conversations in our family

0:34:57 Thomas: None of that is true of these narcissists so it doesn't work yeah

0:35:00 Matt: Yeah. That's the problem. There's no remorse whatsoever. Never has been. You heard that interview and

0:35:04 Lydia: I think the other piece of this too is like I mean if if you truly believed all that stuff as well that like due process was due process was denied then focus that energy on working with her legal team to pursue you know appeals and and any any like legal avenues that you have there just writing pieces in the spectator over and over and over again like what who is that for because it's I don't think it's going to actually sway anybody's mind but

0:35:04 Thomas: If yeah it's just terrible I mean I put that on the spectator why are they why are they publishing this crap

0:35:32 Matt: Why they're giving this platform.

0:35:33 Lydia: I mean but even still with his energy like he has other stuff that he does for work and stuff he's like this nonprofit that's like anti-Islam but so

0:35:42 Matt: His, his real passion.

0:35:42 Thomas: He has like other like racisms that he could be doing you know he's got other like crosses to burn you know

0:35:44 Lydia: That's his other passion

0:35:47 Matt: He doesn't need to work I'm pretty sure uh but this is what he chooses to do with his time is defend uh his rapist uh you know well actually she herself did actually sexually assault some of these women uh perjury for and I just want to I just and I want to make sure to to uh represent virginia drew for here in the book and I Just want to be very clear people don't know I'm sure everybody's heard the name glenn maxwell but she was actively grooming these girls and normalizing them to the idea that it was okay, whatever Epstein wanted to do to them. And Giuffre writes about how she was very uncertain when she went in for this first massage and Maxwell was doing it with her and showing her what to do and acting like this is a completely normal thing that men are going to want in a massage. And just like,

0:35:51 Thomas: Amazing yeah yeah I was just gonna say that allegedly actually a rapist yeah yeah

0:36:26 Matt: Yeah, no. And it wouldn't have happened without an older woman kind of taking that maternal figure and purposely targeting women who'd been through really bad situations and had really tough backgrounds.

0:36:29 Thomas: She was critical yeah yeah

0:36:32 Lydia: Yep well and like like desperate for that money or that opportunity for for you know uh modeling or what have you.

0:36:38 Thomas: I think yeah

0:36:44 Matt: And Giuffrre had already survived terrible things before she met them.

0:36:48 Thomas: Um on where there's woke I'm looking into um trafficking uh stuff for for a thing we're doing and it is true that oftentimes in sex trafficking situations um the lowest people down in the operation essentially tend to be women that have been trafficked themselves. And so I would have plenty of empathy or sympathy for a situation like that, where it's like someone else who was also trafficked was kind of forced into this role. I could see having sympathy for that. We don't have that here.

0:37:28 Thomas: This is another completely privileged person who has every every option to not do this and is going out of her way to be a critical piece of this disgusting, horrific sex abuse. Like, yeah.

0:37:43 Lydia: It's yeah it's similar to um like the NXIVM cult right like uh like the the guy at the head of that is not going to be able to convince all these women like he had to have women below him in the hierarchy or whatever that that made it feel like a safe space that like helps these other women open up and share really really really personal things and then bit by bit just do a little bit more and a little more until now like you are so deep down and you don't know how to get out anymore and it's just it's textbook behavior I mean what happened here right

0:38:16 Thomas: And if she like, like to reiterate, if she wanted to be the kind of person who took full responsibility and exam changed around to examining how, how did I do this? Like, how Did I become this?

0:38:21 Lydia: How did I end up here yeah go to therapy start dissecting that

0:38:26 Thomas: Like okay. Yeah. Maybe you could try to produce something still that the world could use you know maybe you'd try to be like hey here's what to look out for you know here's as I'm reconciling these horrible things I did here's how I normalized it and if you came across like that like I could see being like gosh I could be having some amount of sympathy for her but this is like instead they're smearing dead victims like it's just disgusting disgusting like

0:38:53 Lydia: I mean, sorry. And another good example of exactly what you're saying in a completely different space is Stanley Tookie Williams. He was the co -founder of the Crips gang, and he ended up in prison for the rest of his life, and then he was killed. And when he while he was in prison, even though he knew he was going to be put to death in California, he still was like writing books and advocating for other options for kids on the street so they don't get sucked into the gangs. Like he really took a hard look at his life to see, like, how did I end up here and how can I help other kids from ending up in that same position? Because it's not okay. What, what I helped create is a problem. Um, and unfortunately, like, you know, despite all of that work that he did, he was still killed. Um. Death penalty. Yeah. Yeah, he was executed.

0:39:41 Thomas: Death penalty I love how it's like that like what is that doing for anyone like the idiotic death penalty I mean it's just was

0:39:47 Lydia: I know. Yeah and again, like I said, in California, like they still executed him and, uh, I, I remember, uh.

0:39:54 Thomas: It a federal case though or

0:39:56 Lydia: No, no, no. It was, um, no I think it was state crimes and, and I remember like writing a lot about that when I was younger when that happened. It is, um 2005 when he was is executed

0:40:05 Thomas: Yeah wow stupid all right oh

0:40:09 Matt: Let's get on to the next one because you're gonna like this one, Thomas. This is all about the Todd Blanch interview.

0:40:13 Thomas: This is the how she beat the conspiracy theories one can't wait

0:40:18 Lydia: Fun

0:40:18 Matt: And what it is, is he's got half a piece in him. So he writes that piece and then he just speculates. This sort of goes on about the name.

0:40:24 Thomas: Recycles the old hits plays

0:40:27 Matt: Oh, it's even better. No, he just kind of has some free jazz jazz thoughts about the name Todd. Just kind of going out there, no editor, just free -balling the words.

0:40:26 Lydia: Free jazz yeah oh boy

0:40:28 Thomas: Free bird yeah and

0:40:38 Matt: All right. Yeah.

0:40:39 Thomas: What's the deal with the yeah okay

0:40:41 Matt: We're not going to read all that, but we'll point it out when it gets there.

0:40:44 Thomas: What what what's this art that's a so it's a prison window where the light's like shining on on

0:40:47 Lydia: All right a good question. What What is that? Oh, it's like looking at Ghislaine while she's sleeping in bed, I guess. It's spotlight.

0:40:54 Matt: Creepy, weird.

0:40:52 Thomas: Her what are we what What are we trying to communicate with that? Hmm. Okay. Interesting.

0:41:02 Lydia: The nine hour interview of my sister Ghislraine, conducted under limited immunity by Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche over two days in late July, generated an all too predictable uproar.

0:41:14 Matt: Quick reminder of why, just in case you didn't see that episode from September, which I do strongly recommend. We'll link to it. We had a lot of fun with Liz Skeen going through that interview. Thomas did some great work cleaning up the audio, which was terrible.

0:41:24 Thomas: I don't think it could have been September if this was late July. Did it take us that long to get the...

0:41:29 Matt: I don't remember anything anymore, but it was last year. It was quite a while ago. But that interview was completely pointless. List. The only reason that Todd Blanche went down there, again, to interview someone who had already been convicted, it was so bad.

0:41:38 Thomas: Well, it was atrocious. It was absolutely the most

0:41:42 Matt: It was terrible.

0:41:42 Thomas: Unjust thing. They shouldn't have ever been happening.

0:41:45 Matt: We were part of that uproar and it was really bad. But again, I just want to remind everybody, it Was completely pointless because she'd already been convicted. It Was billed as a proffer session, which is what you do way before you take somebody to trial to see if they can offer anything useful. And all that she was supposed to be proffering and did was that Donald Trump didn't spend a lot of time around Epstein and she had no knowledge of any crimes. Nine hours, that's what we get from it. So that was the the uproar was that this was pointless, out of line, and had the deputy attorney general doing it, which is unheard of. Like just the whole thing. Yeah.

0:42:05 Lydia: Crazy. Crazy.

0:42:13 Thomas: Ridiculous.

0:42:13 Lydia: Yeah. And the president's former personal lawyer, personal defense lawyer.

0:42:18 Matt: Not to mention.

0:42:19 Thomas: Still current.

0:42:20 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah, right. The reaction became still more intense following the release of the associated transcripts and audio late last month. Oh, well, that could be why. That's why you guys did it in September.

0:42:31 Thomas: Wait, is that...

0:42:32 Lydia: It must have been because August is when it came out.

0:42:33 Matt: I guess it makes sense.

0:42:32 Thomas: That's oh okay I my memory was we got it really quickly that okay I guess I misremembered sorry yeah

0:42:38 Lydia: Having held Ghislaine in torturous conditions of solitary confinement in the run up to her trial, including waking her up every 15 minutes during the night for 30 months at the same time as they deliberately deprived her defense of exculpatory Brady material, prosecutors ensured both Ghislaine and her legal case were effectively hollowed out. Under the circumstances, she could not and did not take the stand. The rest is history.

0:43:02 Thomas: She was never gonna take the fucking stand you idiot wow

0:43:05 Lydia: Her encounter with the Department of Justice's Blanche was the first time ever she had spoken to a U.S. law enforcement official. In the interview, Ghislaine challenged, if not demolished, the multiple prevailing conspiracy theories and myths surrounding Jeffrey Epstein, from the notorious client list to a supposed blackmailing scheme to the way he made his money and the alleged involvement of the Mossad intelligence agency. In regard to the creation of the non -existent client list in particular and other fictions, she highlighted the insidious and hugely profitable role of the accuser's lawyers and the foundational and also hugely profitable role of Virginia Giuffre in the whole Epstein mythology. Ghislaine calls it a, quote, narrative that was, quote built upon and just mushroomed basically a Salem witch trial.

0:43:50 Matt: She sure does call it that. That's the thing she says.

0:43:51 Thomas: So that's proof and that's you can take that to the bank you can't just say she you're doing youtube ben shapiro titles for what she did go in demolishes the narrative and then you watch it and it's just her saying that oh man is

0:44:02 Lydia: All caps. Murders. Yeah.

0:44:10 Matt: Yeah. I meant to point out before, the Brady evidence they're talking about, Brady of course being when there's exculpatory evidence that the prosecution withholds. In her habeas petition, I believe what she's talking about is that the massage table they introduced at trial, she's trying to say wasn't actually the massage table, the specific one that one of the witnesses was abused on. And yeah, so that clears the whole thing up. Yeah, because I would not because...

0:44:30 Thomas: That brady material would you call that a brady violation or yeah

0:44:37 Matt: And she also, in the habeas, I was noticing it undermines the government's only, there's a footnote to that, which is is incredible. Only evidence, and I'm like, there's a hundred witnesses who are ready to testify, and four who did, so clearly that's what you think of those girls.

0:44:50 Lydia: Like, that's crazy.

0:44:49 Thomas: That's not that is really not is it like well the real massage table had a chastity belt that went over it's like come on

0:44:56 Lydia: We learned late last month that Giuffre's posthumous auto -fiction is to be published, which suggests that the Epstein gravy train is still chugging away.

0:45:02 Thomas: Posthumous jesus

0:45:12 Matt: Autofiction. Not autobiography, which is what it is, but autofiction, this is the continuing respect that he's showing.

0:45:12 Thomas: What

0:45:16 Lydia: This guy's such an asshole. Poor old Todd Blanche. He seems to get parachuted by his ultimate boss into hot -button situations. Just over three months ago, the president fired the Librarian of Congress, Carla Hayden, citing concerns of diversity, equity and inclusion and appointed Blanche as the new acting librarian of Congress. The trouble is that Hayden's deputy, Robert Newlin, assumed the role of acting librarian by default on her termination and is publicly contesting the legitimacy of Blanche's appointment.

0:45:43 Thomas: The fuck does that have to do with any what

0:45:47 Lydia: Why? What?

0:45:47 Matt: It's very important that we know that Todd Blanche is a victim of woke that's that's what you need to know I don't

0:45:48 Thomas: What what is happening

0:45:48 Lydia: What is happening? Why is he going?

0:45:54 Thomas: Poor

0:45:57 Matt: Even know we didn't even talk about this in no way

0:45:57 Thomas: Old Tom I can't even tell what level of sarcasm he's doing here like

0:46:01 Matt: I had forgotten about this but yeah no he he is actually still technically I believe the acting librarian of congress I think that actually I

0:46:02 Lydia: This is so strange. Strange. But why is he in Maxwell talking about it in this article?

0:46:09 Thomas: Default

0:46:10 Matt: don'T KNOW IT'S SO STUPID

0:46:10 Thomas: I'm trying I really am trying to understand this level but I love understanding these bullshit arguments the

0:46:13 Lydia: Like it's if he has thoughts about that, that's fine. He could write a different article about it. Why is this being brought in here?

0:46:21 Matt: He's

0:46:17 Thomas: Trouble so his problem with Gillen's prosecution is that But Todd Blanche isn't really the Librarian of Congress. What?

0:46:31 Lydia: So weird.

0:46:32 Thomas: And he's not the only Todd in the news?

0:46:32 Matt: Saying something oh yeah another oh this

0:46:35 Lydia: Let me continue. Blanche is not the only Todd in the news.

0:46:37 Thomas: If we go long enough, he's going to get into Sweeney Todd, and I'm excited for that.

0:46:41 Lydia: Over in france where I've spent the better part of august in province home to my mother's huguenot protestant ancestors and incidentally where she is buried okay emmanuel

0:46:51 Matt: Is so good this is SO GOOD

0:46:51 Thomas: What is

0:46:52 Lydia: Todd a public intellectual and commentator is making headlines

0:46:56 Matt: I'm sorry oh stop this is

0:46:56 Thomas: Happening? Is this your podcast? What is this? And you know what grinds my gears.

0:47:03 Matt: Hey

0:47:05 Lydia: Like I mean I for a while I was like man it would be fun to like write things and I was was like no it's too much work it's too hard I don't think I have like the patience for like a through line that will carry me to the end but apparently you don't need it apparently this is fine that's

0:47:20 Matt: You know who spends the better part of August in Provence not anybody you want to meet like why are you reminding us that you have this much money and that your mother is buried in France like I know they're French citizens but come on like you have obviously a very nice life and you're just continuing to remind us

0:47:34 Thomas: This feels like a prank where they're like, let's see if anyone actually reads these. And they're like, by the end, it's just from the phone book. Like they're just writing nonsense. This is great.

0:47:37 Lydia: Why

0:47:45 Thomas: You got to read this next sentence.

0:47:40 Matt: It gets worse

0:47:44 Lydia: Why is this in here okay Todd is perhaps the primus inter paris of Declan is thinkers sorry

0:47:52 Thomas: I don't, I don'T know what that means. I'll just go ahead and say, yeah, sometimes I'm able to be like, oh, that's a really, um, uh, pompous way of saying such and such. This is, I, this is a new one on me. This Is a new One On Me. I Don'T don't know what this means.

0:47:56 Lydia: I'm like getting closer and closer to my computer don't be like am I reading this correctly it's a pompous way of saying something oh

0:48:12 Matt: Unfortunately I do know a lot of pretentious Latin it's first among equals of declinish thinkers I don't Primus inter Paris. Yeah, I guess that we're all in the decline. Western civilization is...

0:48:18 Thomas: What's yeah. Declinist, declinist or declinists.

0:48:25 Lydia: Who predicted the fall of the soviet union and is now suggesting the u .s is in decline

0:48:31 Matt: Because Todd Blanchett's thesis is the Library of Congress.

0:48:35 Thomas: Dude, we didn't need that as a sign to point like collapse

0:48:35 Lydia: He's finding the weirdest ways to connect things right now

0:48:40 Thomas: Of Protestant values. Here we go.

0:48:42 Matt: And this is such an old man thing to do to be like, that reminds me of another Todd in the news.

0:48:48 Thomas: And it's after you decode all the pompous language, it's just a kids these days. It's just like a, they don't have enough Protestant values and that's why my sex trafficking rapist sister is in prison.

0:48:54 Matt: Hell

0:49:00 Lydia: Exactly so crazy why

0:49:00 Matt: In a handbasket, I tell you. I mean, he goes on to the next part. We don't have to read all this, but I mean he's talking about the heat wave in Provence. He's talking about Pope Clement V moving to Avignon.

0:49:02 Thomas: I love this. What? This

0:49:11 Matt: I don't know.

0:49:11 Thomas: Is really just his podcast. He's just like, and some other items in the news.

0:49:16 Lydia: Are we gonna pull it back oh no not yet I guess you guys you guys it gets worse yeah

0:49:19 Thomas: Also, have you been watching heated rivalry?

0:49:22 Matt: And I wasn't even going to read the rest of this because he talks about more Tods. There's another Tod by the end.

0:49:25 Thomas: It's fun. More Todd's.

0:49:26 Lydia: For for whatever reason however I found I could not shake the name todd from my mind I discovered it comes from the middle english word todd t -o -d -d which translates as fox so the name is indelibly associated with the rather fox -like qualities of cunning intelligence and adaptability

0:49:33 Thomas: What the fuck are you? No, you're such an asshole. You're such such an asshole. Fuck off.

0:49:48 Matt: Just ask Todd Blanche out on a date and get this over with. I mean, this is just like your new crush, Todd Blanche. Yeah, that's

0:49:52 Lydia: My what

0:49:52 Thomas: Ask yourself out on a date and get this over with you. Fucking arrogant douchebag.

0:49:57 Lydia: What is most

0:49:55 Matt: Come on. You ready for more Tod's? There's more.

0:49:59 Lydia: Of this article doesn't have anything to do with how does it have to that she beat the conspiracy theory what this

0:50:04 Matt: I warned you.

0:50:02 Thomas: There's more. Yeah. Will we ever get back to that? Will you?

0:50:07 Matt: It's the No.

0:50:09 Thomas: Usually by the end of an article, you're like, and therefore, but he doesn't even do that. Let's see.

0:50:09 Lydia: Is shocking no okay

0:50:14 Matt: Let's read the last paragraph because you

0:50:16 Thomas: Read the, I demand you read the last paragraph.

0:50:18 Matt: Have no idea where this is going. Can't possibly know.

0:50:21 Lydia: The late 19th century american jockey todd sloan

0:50:25 Matt: A guy who rode a horse in the 19th century once said...

0:50:27 Thomas: Literally,

0:50:27 Lydia: The no you guys you

0:50:27 Thomas: My Sweeney Todd joke would have have been more relevant.

0:50:30 Lydia: Guys how dare you denigrate this man the u .s's first international sports superstar of course todd sloan you guys of course had all those qualities in spades but his career finished badly and he was banned from racing and given the cold shoulder he left his mark on the english language though when his first name was adopted into the rhyming slang used by london's East End Cockneys, giving rise to the expression, Todd Sloan on your own. Okay. Over the years, the rhyme was lost, but on your Todd came to mean being on one's own. That's a state which, whiling away time on a holiday to beat the heat, I can certainly recommend.

0:50:37 Thomas: I doubt it. Yeah.

0:50:37 Matt: That can't be true. A jockey?

0:51:09 Thomas: Jesus Christ.

0:51:10 Lydia: What the hell?

0:51:10 Matt: What?

0:51:10 Thomas: If I would love this delightful

0:51:12 Lydia: Hell yes

0:51:12 Thomas: Bit of trivia in a column about etymology of Cockney expressions, which is kind of interesting. I do not need this analysis from brother of sex trafficker rapist who is writing in defense of sex trafficker rapists.

0:51:18 Lydia: Or or like um have you yeah yeah yeah

0:51:29 Thomas: I don't need it.

0:51:30 Lydia: Todd

0:51:29 Matt: He's got one piece in him and he just wrote the third. Yep. No, this is really... I did not consent to read about this many tods. This is not what I signed up for in this piece.

0:51:33 Thomas: This is amazing. He

0:51:35 Lydia: Sloan on your own the headline didn't give you any indication that that's what you were gonna get like

0:51:41 Thomas: Doesn't even get back to the thesis statement. Like he just, by the way, let, let me just, just for fun, the sum total of his evidence that she beat the conspiracy, which by theway, let's look at the title. I mean, often, often they don't choose the titles, but whatever. How my sister Gillen beat the Epstein conspiracy theories okay let's get deep dive into the evidence um prosecutors ensured gillen and her legal case were effectively hollowed out I'm just she didn't couldn't take okay and then now she said uh in the interview gillan challenged if not demolished the multiple prevailing

0:51:46 Matt: It's just like by

0:51:51 Lydia: How my sister yeah yeah

0:51:55 Matt: Talking

0:52:12 Lydia: Yep yeah

0:52:19 Thomas: Conspiracy theories and myths surrounding jeffrey epstein uh

0:52:22 Matt: To her. And then she said it was a sandwich trial. And

0:52:23 Thomas: From the client list to the whatever she calls it here I think this is the key evidence here she calls it a narrative that was built upon and just mushroomed basically a salem witch trial that's

0:52:36 Lydia: So it's a quote and zero evidence evidence

0:52:36 Matt: You know, a great time to get into that.

0:52:37 Thomas: It that's the end of the evidence this one paragraph well

0:52:41 Matt: December 2021, she could have testified in her own trial if she wanted to present this information. But no, she did not do that. And again, she has every right not to, but

0:52:42 Lydia: Man right yeah

0:52:49 Thomas: She couldn't because of the brady violation you don't understand they had the wrong massage table so how could she testify matt how could she testify with the wrong massage table

0:52:53 Matt: You got me, you got me.

0:52:52 Lydia: It was hollowed out it was hollered out that wasn't the massage table that she knew so yeah weird

0:53:04 Matt: But yeah, so we've got half of an essay that just sort of acknowledges that the interview happened and half an essay about tods.

0:53:06 Thomas: What an asshole. Unbelievable.

0:53:13 Matt: Yep. This is the one when I read this, it's like, we have to read, this is too weird. This just too weird, no editor, just stream of consciousness.

0:53:15 Lydia: This freaking guy oh nuts

0:53:19 Thomas: This is incredible. It's everything I dreamed of. Yeah, holy

0:53:26 Matt: What's the expression? On the tod?

0:53:26 Thomas: Fucking shit.

0:53:28 Matt: And then it ends with him, on your tod.

0:53:26 Lydia: On the tod on

0:53:29 Thomas: I feel like I'm on the Todd here on your time on I'm on my Todd.

0:53:32 Lydia: Your tod

0:53:33 Matt: Sounds like he'd like to be on a tod. But again, he's bringing about his holiday in Provence and saying, hey, come out and hang out in France with me, and while wasting time on the holiday while the rest of us are working.

0:53:45 Lydia: It's a little hot but you know yeah

0:53:48 Matt: Right, but I'm managing.

0:53:48 Thomas: I don't even. Yeah what does one even say to this like being so head up your own ass that you think this is something I don't even know what he thinks this is I kind of want to know is it that he thinks these trappings of riches and privilege just because to him they're good things that he can just talk about them and then they'll be like that'll communicate that I'm awesome or something I Don't know like I I genuinely don't know he

0:54:16 Lydia: Like for me, I think if if I was his child, like if this was my parent and my parent had this published, I would say, like, I feel like you're getting a break from reality in some ways. And I would take that to the doctor and I'd be like, hi, I would like to do a cognitive testing because this article has me concerned.

0:54:36 Thomas: Won't stop talking talking about various tods

0:54:38 Lydia: It's it's so bizarre. It's so strange. Can you please make sure he knows how to tell time still?

0:54:44 Thomas: It

0:54:40 Matt: It might be the weirdest thing I've ever read in a mainstream stream publication it's just bizarre it's it's not even wrong it's just weird I mean it's wrong too but yeah

0:54:47 Thomas: It's it's up there I that is I wonder if any people at the spectator are like no one's touching this we're not we're that like we'll publish this bullshit but we're nichtaking any part in it like that's the only thing I can think of man well do we uh can we do our final patron read should we do that now all right well we will take our final break but before we of course have to thank the top hall of famers at patreon .com slash law thank you to the cincinnati kid blah blah blah's law podcast philly basement bar will be getting a new house rep in the midterms elect thomas smith president american honky tonk bar association Baltakatei Philip Kizer I will be damned if I propose to be at the beck and call of every itinerant scoundrel who has five dollars to invest in a patreon pledge no we will be at at the

0:55:05 Matt: We can let's do it

0:55:06 Lydia: Fine. Yeah, I think so. Nice.

0:55:33 Matt: Perfect callback

0:55:34 Lydia: Nice nice yeah

0:55:36 Thomas: Beck and call of every itinerant scoundrel. This is now the itinerate scoundril level of patron. We should rename it the itinorant scoundrels.

0:55:44 Lydia: There you go there you go okay

0:55:47 Thomas: That's fantastic. Corrin Lan, a string of unpronounceable characters. Malaika Chandler, RhondaTheDork.com, Milo Meadsong is fighting petty tyrants, Big Easy Blasphemy, hors d 'oeuvres in the court before a report, Chris Waltrip, Fred R. Gruthius, Sam Denao, ClassicLibtard, and Mitchell. Thanks so much, top patrons. You're the best we'll take our last break and then we will finish up with this fucking lunatic all we're going to be on to Don't Take Virginia and Jeffrey's Memory, memory memoir at face value, which I feel like is a little undermined by the photo that it's again, like, is, is the spectator fucking with him? Like, is this like,

0:56:16 Matt: Her memory yeah the single most photo from excuse me the single most famous photo from the Epstein prosecution and the Epsteins story it's it's Prince Andrew with Virginia Giuffre I believe at 16 or 17 and Maxwell smiling in the background

0:56:39 Lydia: The background like

0:56:40 Thomas: She might as well have like a thumbs up and like a, I trafficked the sign. Like, come on. Oh,

0:56:41 Matt: In her book she talks about when this photo was taken and basically she really wanted a picture with the prince. This is before he sexually assaulted her, allegedly. And it is the only reason I think that he's able to say that they were never in the same room or that he can't flatly deny that they weren't in the room.

0:56:48 Lydia: Also look at that hand oh

0:57:02 Thomas: I gotcha.

0:57:02 Matt: Otherwise, he would totally deny ever meeting her probably. And he still says he has no memory of this picture being taken, but sure, yeah, it was taken.

0:57:05 Thomas: My god. Sure. I have no memory of having my hand on the waist and hips of a very young girl. How old was she in this? She looks pretty young, but yeah.

0:57:13 Matt: It's pretty creepy. She's not of age, I believe. Yeah. So the clip up we're going to watch here is Virginia Ruggiero Frey, of course, again, did tragically pass a few months ago in the fall, 2025. And I want to make sure that we got her voice in here before we get a bunch of Ian Maxwell trying to take on her memoir, which is, it's going to be stupid as you'll see, but I still feel bad giving him this much time and not making sure that we got to get her in here too.

0:57:21 Thomas: Ridiculous.

0:57:44 Clip: Is a monster. She's worse than Epstein. She did thing even worse than that scene did. She was vicious, she was evil, and she was a woman. Her lawyers have said Glenn Maxwell is not a Jeffrey Epstein, that she has been a victim of media spin. They're doing their job, but I know that woman. I've known her really well. Put it this way, Epstein was Pinocchio, and he was Gisbetto. She was the guy controlling Jeffrey. Pulling the strings?

0:57:52 Thomas: Holy shit.

0:58:15 Clip: Yep, she Was pulling the strings. She had his money. He had her contacts, but he Lynn was much more than I being as smart than Epstein ever was Lynn and

0:58:26 Thomas: Just, wow. Wow, I believed that because he is a moron, So, yeah. Wow. That's quite a quote. Unbelievable. All right.

0:58:35 Thomas: So armed with that, I guess we want to take a look at this article.

0:58:38 Matt: All right. From November 5th, 2025, quote

0:58:42 Lydia: Months after she took her own life aged 41 virginia roberts jufre's memoir nobody's girl sorry memoirs and quotes folks nobody's Girl written with her professional collaborator, Amy Wallace, has been published.

0:58:50 Thomas: Yeah, there you go.

0:58:49 Matt: Unquote memoir, more. Collaborator? Can you just call her co-author or writer?

0:58:58 Lydia: Yeah, yeah.

0:58:58 Matt: I mean, collaborator. Yeah, anyway. Okay.

0:59:01 Lydia: It is bound to evoke distinct and intensified feelings in readers because the account of her suffering, coupled with the manner of her death, increases the emotional impact of the narrative.

0:59:12 Matt: Yes, it's an extremely emotional story. I was very touched by it, I got to tell you.

0:59:12 Thomas: Jesus fucking Christ, dude.

0:59:16 Lydia: The writing style and tone of the book feel authentic. Giuffre, who was born in 1983, uses words like, quote, rad, Meaning awesome or cool. And, quote, stoner dude.

0:59:24 Matt: Hey, me too.

0:59:23 Thomas: Fuck you, dude, she doesn't talk about Todd's at all. Zero out of 10 Todd's. Fuck you man.

0:59:30 Lydia: And stoner, dude, quote stoner do to describe someone who smokes a lot of weed, plus her constant reliance.

0:59:38 Thomas: That's just normal. What?

0:59:40 Lydia: Yeah. Quote on music to make the world make sense. Seem very, quote, seem very quote zennial as late generation Xers or early millennials are sometimes called.

0:59:44 Thomas: She hardly discusses being in France at all! Yeah

0:59:54 Matt: Guilty as charged. What are we doing? What are saying here?

0:59:57 Lydia: Yeah.

0:59:58 Matt: Okay.

0:59:56 Thomas: Man that's not literally just describes normal thing is this some fucking rich piece of shit just not and and british piece of shit just not understanding america at all I mean like this is just par for the court like she uses rad and stoner dude and

1:00:13 Lydia: Well, he, but he also like, like calls it out.

1:00:17 Thomas: Relies on music to make the world make sense yeah man man. So like a person?

1:00:22 Lydia: But, but the thing is, is he calls it in the sentence right before it, where he says the writing style and tone of the book feel authentic because that's, she's using those words like that. It is authentic. That's makes sense.

1:00:31 Matt: That's how she talks. And this is the worst possible recognition of Xennials, by the way. I really enjoy being an Xennial. I'm very proud of it, but come on, man. You just don't like us.

1:00:41 Thomas: I think that's him saying it feels authentic because she's deceptively doing these things. That's what I think he's saying. Oh,

1:00:48 Lydia: If Giuffre is to be believed, one could not fail, surely, to be moved by her account, which is quite graphic in places, and by the arc of a tragic life that is chronicled in four parts with emotive titles, quote, daughter, quote prisoner, quote survivor, and quote warrior. There's no index, however, so the book could have done with a dramatist personae to help keep track of who's who in a large cast of characters.

1:01:10 Thomas: Dude.

1:01:11 Lydia: Above all, it would have benefited from a detailed timeline of her life and the key events she describes strange

1:01:14 Matt: So you're a book critic now? This is a review of a dead woman's memoir. The woman that your sister sexually assaulted and trafficked. It doesn't have an index.

1:01:24 Thomas: My God. Why? This is the most piece of shit behavior. I can't even. Why would the spectator do this? Like just assholes.

1:01:31 Matt: That's why we're here. Yeah.

1:01:35 Thomas: Let

1:01:35 Lydia: Precision particularly as to accurately identifying named abusers when and where the alleged abuse took place and crucially how old she was at the relevant times is not however the author's strong point when it comes to standing up her narrative version of events this precision uncle

1:01:51 Thomas: Me just hold on. Let's just go back up to this picture here. Is this a normal thing hey asshole is it do you think this is a normal picture why are why why is this person here why oh

1:02:04 Matt: You're about to find out he thinks this is pretty normal.

1:02:06 Thomas: Just normal oh they must be related is is she is she his uh his his like uh you know yeah exactly is she a niece that was that was a weird I couldn't find is she his niece or something you know like that okay it still would be it would yeah it'd be be as bad actually it'd be the same yeah

1:02:17 Matt: It'd be a creepy uncle picture.

1:02:15 Lydia: The niece yeah Yeah. Mm hmm. This precision really matters in the sexual abuse accusations you free love levels. I OK. I have to stop there because I don't think it does. If she's going to like pursue criminal charges then yeah then I guess like legally and stuff you would want to be looking at all of those details and everything because you're trying to build a case. But when she's describing her experience and the things that she's been through, it does not matter if it's if it says at the age of whatever, this particular thing happened to me in this particular location at this particular time of day like that. That's nonsense.

1:02:56 Thomas: Can't when a victim wrote

1:02:58 Lydia: Nonsense.

1:02:58 Thomas: A book before taking her own life the last thing on my mind is like literary criticism of it like what what a fucking asshole

1:03:08 Matt: Just wait until this next sentence.

1:03:10 Thomas: Here we go okay

1:03:10 Lydia: Who cares, you may ask, if she was 16, 17 or 18 when she met Jeffrey Epstein, who she accused of years of abuse. It isn't a trivial difference, however, when it comes to statutory rape charges. At my sister Ghislaine's trial, as Giuffre herself notes, to her manifest disappointment, quote, two of the accusers testified only after the judge instructed jurors that their description of alleged sexual conduct could not be used to convict Ghislraine of the crimes charged. Kate was above the age of consent in the relevant jurisdiction, and Annie was not considered a minor in New Mexico where the alleged sexual contact had occurred. Man, I can't talk today.

1:03:45 Matt: So they were still trafficked.

1:03:46 Thomas: So what you're saying is oh god also

1:03:48 Matt: No, they're still trafficked, I mean, it's not, yeah. And then also, nobody was charged with statutory rape, because that's not a federal crime. And also, I do care very much if she was 16, 17, or 18. Jeffrey Epstein and Glenn Maxwell were both older than me right now, like, significantly when they they met her. It's gross. It is bad.

1:04:02 Thomas: What you'RE SAYING is that the justice system went out of its way to instruct the jury to try to make sure Gillen got a fair trial and she still was convicted. I think that's what you're saying.

1:04:14 Matt: In the witch trial. Yes.

1:04:15 Thomas: Yeah. God, Jesus.

1:04:20 Lydia: Giuffre had previously accused Alan Dershowitz, a sometime Epstein lawyer, of abusing her no fewer than six times, including in the Netflix series Filthy Rich, but later admitted she, quote, may have been mistaken. Yet in her memoir, she writes, quote. Some critics have insinuated that there's no way I could remember these men. But to them, I say I say simply this. When a man has been on top of you, his face just inches from your own. You remember him. But if that's true, how could she have been mistaken about Dershowitz?

1:04:45 Thomas: I

1:04:48 Matt: You're so close. You are so close.

1:04:48 Thomas: Agree with this asshole. Yeah you're right. It's almost like what she's doing is trying to signal that she She was held fucking hostage and made to say she had may have been mistaken and she's not allowed to fucking contradict that except to say, uh, I know who it is. And in so many words, like, come on, unbelievable.

1:04:52 Lydia: It's almost as if. Yeah. Yeah. And then die by suicide shortly after it's released. Yeah, when it comes to Giuffre's firsthand account of her time, quote, in Epstein and Maxwell's Orbit, Amy Wallace in her preface states, quote. It was supported by thousands of pages of public court documents, including sworn depositions containing the full names of many of the men who Virginia alleged she had been trafficked to. Their contents are supported by numerous other sources, including published books on the subject by authors such as the Miami Herald's Julie K. Brown and Virginia's former attorney Bradley Edwards. As if the sheer quantity of such material and the implied quality of the names in support are standalone proof of Giuffre's overall veracity.

1:05:47 Lydia: This is a surprisingly Stalinist approach to corroboration.

1:05:47 Thomas: What,

1:05:52 Matt: Stalin, who famously used thousands of pages of evidence to convict people.

1:05:52 Thomas: What, what are you talking about? So good. The full, what is the function of this paragraph?

1:06:03 Matt: Thousands of pages, including sworn depositions. Those are not evidence. Those are Stalin show trials, I guess. I really don't understand any of this.

1:06:11 Lydia: Weird.

1:06:11 Thomas: Unbelievable. Wow. Okay.

1:06:15 Lydia: Do you want me to continue?

1:06:16 Thomas: Yes this is this is great this

1:06:18 Lydia: Jouffre herself states in the introduction to her memoir, quote, until now, I have never told my whole story. Doing so allows me to fill in gaps to provide context where it has been sorely lacking and in key places to set the record straight. She confirms, however, that she did, in fact, quote complete a 139 page typewritten manuscript entitled The Billionaire's Playboy Club. Although unpublished, it found its way into the court record. Yeah.

1:06:43 Thomas: Is the reason I want to keep reading this is it just makes him look worse and worse like you don't you just have to read his words you don t like I love how your brain is expecting the traditional like syntax of human argument where you start well she herself states in the introduction that until now I've never been told my own story and then by the end and he goes however there was a manuscript entitled the billionaires playboy club and you're like what

1:07:09 Matt: Which Which is like a lightly fictionalized version of her life before she wrote her memoir.

1:07:10 Thomas: What does that have to and it wouldn't be her quote-unquote whole story why why is that contract the first thing like it doesn't these are worthless paragraphs they don't do anything yeah

1:07:22 Matt: And he's mad that it's in the court record.

1:07:24 Lydia: Right, right, the context in quotes, she then provides about that version of her life is to blame the mail on Sunday reporter Sharon Churcher for advising her in 2011 2012 to fictionalize parts of the narrative to avoid being sued. This, she says, accounts for why, quote, my third encounter with Prince Andrew occurred at Zorro Ranch in New Mexico, not where it actually occurred, the Caribbean. It wasn't until 2019 that Giuffre's own lawyers had to admit in a court document that the manuscript was indeed, quote fictionalized.

1:07:54 Matt: It wasn't a memoir. So, yeah. And

1:07:55 Thomas: Hold on let me just scroll up to the top oh oh but there's a there's the picture so So what, what am I supposed to, yeah, okay. She, it sounds like someone from something called the mail on Sunday advised her to try to avoid these powerful men who have sued and intimidated people into silence. Hey, maybe fictionalize aspects of this so that you avoid being sued. And then eventually she admitted that she had done that.

1:08:19 Lydia: Yeah. To protect yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It

1:08:28 Thomas: Okay. Dot, dot, dot. Then what? Like, give me the next part, asshole. Like, what's the conclusion of that? Again

1:08:32 Lydia: Is from. It is from this disclaimed memoir that Julie K. Brown directly quotes Jufre verbatim or paraphrases her in her 2021 book, Perversion of Justice. The book is dedicated to Jufra, which might explain why Brown was happy to corroborate her version of events to Wallace. Is it any wonder, therefore, that Jufres credibility issues were one reason she was neither named as a victim nor called as a witness in my sister's prosecution? Prosecution she claimed she was not called as a witness because she would have been quote a distraction but that's a self-serving lie yeah

1:09:04 Thomas: They didn't so they didn t need to call someone they still convicted her so that s worse

1:09:10 Matt: They had a lot of people to choose from.

1:09:12 Thomas: Yeah you don t do every single victim like especially with something like this god yeah

1:09:17 Lydia: Echelon sentencing hearing despite not featuring in her trial in any capacity giuffre who was never cross-examined under oath in any legal proceeding was allowed by the judge to provide a victim impact statement that's yeah Yeah, that's how any victim, any victim would be afforded those rights.

1:09:29 Matt: That's how it works.

1:09:32 Thomas: Yeah I m sorry would there be a requirement that you have to be you have to testify in a trial to be a victim like you don't even get to be okay yeah

1:09:43 Lydia: The statement itself could not be subjected to cross -examination, and Giuffre's most serious and untested allegations added time to Ghislaine's sentence.

1:09:52 Matt: Absolutely not. You don't know that.

1:09:54 Lydia: Giuffe frequently writes lines such as, quote, I didn't want money, I wanted justice, and mentions her charity SOAR. Yet despite having reportedly received more than $20 million in settlements, including at least $2 million from Prince Andrew, the charity was never fully established, lost its tax -exempt status due to inactivity, and has no record of charitable giving.

1:09:54 Thomas: You don't yeah okay

1:10:15 Matt: Turns out people with severe trauma who are trying to raise three kids are bad at running charities. I guess that's the worst he's got on her.

1:10:20 Thomas: Here

1:10:21 Lydia: Yeah. Nearly three -quarters of the way through the book, readers are asked if they, quote, can remember America before the Me Too movement, which reached its apex in late 2017. In the pursuit of justice, Me Too was a wave that Giuffre, guided by her ruthlessly adept advisors, skillfully and above all profitably, rode to their mutual benefit.

1:10:34 Thomas: We go I mean it's you're taking someone who committed suicide and being like she's faking it like after the fact what what are you talking about you absolute piece of shit jesus

1:10:44 Matt: Still doing this. This is like 2018 level discourse about Me Too also. Just, yeah, totally out of touch.

1:11:02 Lydia: While that movement has clearly raised increased public awareness of sexual misconduct, it has also generated an important debate over the erosion of core principles of natural justice. The bully pulpit of social media too often bypasses traditional mechanisms of due process, right, with

1:11:07 Thomas: It's raised it too high in my opinion too much awareness oh well they solved that by putting her actually on trial they put glenn on trial and they convicted her easily so that that's how they solved that and

1:11:28 Lydia: Allegations leading to devastating reputational consequences before a formal investigation or hearing can occur. Her.

1:11:34 Thomas: Well they had those and then she was convicted

1:11:36 Matt: And what do you think his example is going to be?

1:11:37 Lydia: By May 2020, presidential candidate, as he then was, Joe Biden, facing allegations from a former staffer of sexual harassment 27 years earlier, produced a more nuanced interpretation of the original Me Too slogan, Believe Women, when he said, quote, there is a belief that women should be heard, that they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect, and that their stories should be subject to appropriate inquiry and scrutiny. The italics are mine,

1:12:03 Matt: And this is an example of that happening because nobody believed that story by the time that they looked into those allegations.

1:12:09 Thomas: And then he went to russia she like defected to russia is the weirdest story

1:12:13 Lydia: Even if only parts of Giuffre's account are true, she is still a person who suffered and deserves sympathy.

1:12:20 Matt: A person who suffered. A

1:12:21 Lydia: But that cannot excuse the fact that she accused innocent people of serious crimes and destroyed reputations and lives.

1:12:21 Matt: Person Who Suffered, the passive voice. Sorry.

1:12:33 Lydia: Her claims, like anyone's, must be carefully vetted.

1:12:32 Thomas: Fuck off dude oh well

1:12:37 Lydia: To approach this book with the assumption that she is telling the truth necessarily means imposing a presumption of guilt on everyone she is accused of sexual assault, placing the burden on them to prove their innocence. This is contrary to all principles of natural justice.

1:12:52 Thomas: Fortunately when people read books they aren't a jury you don't actually have to read a book as a jury you're not convicting anyone of crimes you just get to read a book and be like oh yeah yeah originally published in november 10th it says right there right

1:12:59 Matt: Also, this is November 5th. What does it say on this? Yeah. So this is before a lot of the Epstein files came out, but it's just unquestionable. Not that we needed them to believe her, but all those emails with all these people, you can't say these are all... I

1:13:21 Thomas: So I haven't heard much coverage of like glenn in the latest batches like I haven's seen much of that um is there new stuff is there like more convincing proof maybe we topic for another other time but uh of

1:13:36 Matt: Don't have time to pull up all those e -mails, but there's plenty of her in them and plenty of being cc'd on things and plenty of references to her. She's down for all this. She knows what's going on.

1:13:39 Thomas: Course yeah yeah yeah

1:13:46 Lydia: We also still have approximately three million files that haven't been released. So

1:13:51 Thomas: What

1:13:51 Matt: Yeah, plenty more to come. All right. I would take a quick look at the one that got my attention. Originally, this is from February 25th of just a few days ago.

1:13:54 Thomas: An asshole so

1:14:00 Lydia: His most recent piece.

1:14:01 Matt: Yes. And then we'll wrap it up. But we don't have to do this whole one.

1:14:05 Thomas: We're we're to the top we've gone through his oeuvre or whatever uh here we go man you're still going with this okay

1:14:14 Lydia: He sure is.

1:14:15 Matt: Now he wants to remind you about how the rest of his family are also criminals.

1:14:19 Thomas: Fuck

1:14:20 Lydia: My sister Ghislaine became a prop in the theater of global online outrage. My family name has become a byword for scandal. My father, Robert, went from press baron to tabloid monster within weeks of his death in 1991. My sister Ghilaine, convicted in New York three decades later for sex trafficking offenses linked to Jeffrey Epstein, became the algorithmically optimized villain of the online age. Last week's arrest of the former Prince Andrew shows how fully a newer system has taken hold, one in which guilt is first declared on the homepage and only later if at all tested in court.

1:14:24 Thomas: You idiot god why home page he's

1:14:58 Lydia: Yeah. Google?

1:15:00 Matt: He thinks the internet has a homepage.

1:15:01 Thomas: So he's He's so with it with his late 90s internet terminology.

1:15:01 Lydia: Facebook? Old protections, the presumption of innocence, etc., become threadbare once a story enters the global content mill. Defendants are no longer chiefly subjects of legal process. They are raw raw material for cliques, outrage, and political theater. When my father fell from his yacht off the Canary Islands, Fleet Street's knives were already out.

1:15:11 Thomas: Shut up. I quit. Fleet Street.

1:15:27 Matt: I'm sorry.

1:15:28 Thomas: We almost got to Sweeney Todd.

1:15:28 Lydia: Fleet Street! Exactly, some Sweeney mentions.

1:15:31 Matt: If you want my sympathy, why are you starting with, when my father fell from his yacht off the Canary Islands? I'm Sorry, man.

1:15:40 Thomas: Oh, man.

1:15:41 Lydia: Man.

1:15:41 Matt: I'm not feeling it. And also remember, Fleet Street, when we're talking about the media, very important, I think we said this out loud yet, that Robert Maxwell was running the Daily Mirror, which is a massive tabloid, which has a lot to do with... And when he's talking about the media in this piece, think about that.

1:15:52 Thomas: My God. Like he ran the media?

1:15:58 Matt: And the really trashy kind, the kind that's doing this.

1:15:59 Lydia: Well, yeah, yeah. And in direct

1:16:02 Thomas: Fuck off.

1:16:02 Lydia: Competition with Rupert Murdoch, like they were just going back and forth at each other.

1:16:06 Thomas: You idiot. Idiot it's so funny to be like the online outrage machine is out of control they're mad at people like hitler and other it's like yeah that's the times it's good like we're mad really bad people doing bad things and prince andrew hasn't been convicted of anything as of now you know if his whole thing is like well it's ruining justice because they're no it's not he hasn't be convicted of anything and if he is it won't be because of the online outraged mob it will be because he did did some weird stuff with the government information or whatever.

1:16:12 Lydia: The right the right people yeah yeah yeah yep

1:16:39 Thomas: I'm not totally clear on the details, but he's not even getting convicted or he's Not even charged or alleged of sex abuse stuff. Like the reason he got arrested was not that it was like giving secrets to possibly to, uh, yeah, sure.

1:16:39 Lydia: Which

1:16:50 Matt: Abuse of office.

1:16:51 Lydia: Which I will say uh there's there's kind of like a connection there with robert maxwell and some things that he was accused of doing which was sharing with israel some information and yeah

1:17:01 Thomas: But point is that has nothing to do with Virginia Jeffrey or any, it's like no perversion of justice, no outrage machine. It wasn't on the homepage. It was just, that's what he did and he still hasn't faced any justice for anything oh

1:17:05 Matt: That's right. Anything.

1:17:15 Lydia: And and like the really you know know kind of shocking picture I think that we all saw after his questioning where he looks like yeah I got in trouble like I'm I'm caught you know sort of face but again I mean that's paparazzi for you like and that's that's tabloids bread and butter like they love those paparazi photos

1:17:21 Thomas: Man yeah

1:17:29 Matt: That is the Daily mirror. And it's so funny to me that he's complaining about that because that is exactly, it's almost like he's reminiscing for the time when people got their outrage from the daily mirror and not from TikTok. Funded his family.

1:17:43 Lydia: Let's see where was I when my uh yeah years of aggressive takeovers I'm just gonna read that sentence again actually when my father fell from his yacht off the canary islands Fleet Street's knives were already out. Years of aggressive takeovers and bullying of journalists had made him a convenient hate figure. Journalists, right?

1:17:49 Matt: It's okay. What a normal sentence about your father.

1:17:55 Thomas: Wait

1:18:04 Lydia: Journalists.

1:18:03 Thomas: You're sorry years of aggressive takeovers and bullying of journalists had made him a convenient hate figure like he did that

1:18:09 Matt: Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, he was aggressively running his media empire.

1:18:16 Thomas: I'm just yeah but I'm just curious as to is is this asshole actually saying that like well they probably hated him because he sucked like that, like like his son is actually saying, well, he was a piece of shit and bullied journalists. So

1:18:29 Lydia: So I don't know that he's accusing his dad of bullying journalists. I think it's like the aggressive takeover's in, I don' t think that he necessarily directly, I d' t know.

1:18:33 Thomas: Yeah, I'm I'm trying to figure

1:18:38 Lydia: Or just just the bullying of journalists and because his dad was in the press like like he was in that that industry

1:18:38 Thomas: Out what he's saying. Years of no, I don't think so, because the sentence is years of aggressive. I mean, you could be right. I'm genuinely trying to figured out years of progressive takeovers and bullying of journalists had made him a convenient hate figure. I don' t I don''t know why what that says other than he's the one doing it.

1:18:56 Lydia: Yeah I don't know or

1:18:57 Matt: I'm maybe the journalists were bullying him. Yeah.

1:19:00 Lydia: Just that yeah the that

1:19:01 Matt: But I agree. They

1:19:02 Lydia: He is overseeing the press I don' know the discovery of a hole in his company's pension Ian Ian

1:19:10 Matt: Threw the pension

1:19:08 Thomas: They found a hole.

1:19:10 Matt: In a hole.

1:19:12 Thomas: Yeah. It was

1:19:12 Lydia: The discovery of a hole Ian dear god my

1:19:16 Matt: 500 million pounds.

1:19:17 Thomas: A perfectly naturally occurring hole in the pension fund. Sometimes they don't seal those things up in the factory properly and you got a little leakage.

1:19:21 Lydia: Guy oh my god that like shook me that that phrase or the discovery of a hole in his company's pension funds confirmed the caricature of Captain Bob as a crook yeah and you know what there's like 400 pages because they did an entire investigation about all the the things that your dad did so um and actually I have that so I'll I'll share that with the audience too

1:19:31 Matt: So good. It's so good.

1:19:27 Thomas: That's so good. Here, finish, finish the sentence too. Yes. Unironically, yes. Yeah. Discovery of a hole. Does he say, I need to see, does he say any more about that or does he just get to say the discovery of a whole, like it just leaked, like a, you know, corrosion.

1:19:57 Lydia: I I guess I guess he does go to it yeah yet the story yet the story was still mediated through recognizably legal machinery the serious fraud office investigated serious being capitalized as part of that because

1:19:59 Thomas: Let's see. Huh. It might be the name of it, right?

1:20:11 Lydia: Maybe I thought he was being an asshole.

1:20:12 Thomas: The serious fraud. No, this is British. So yeah.

1:20:14 Lydia: I've just seen it referred to as like F .O. for like fraud office. So I perhaps you're

1:20:19 Matt: It's the SFO.

1:20:19 Thomas: It's probably the serious fraud office.

1:20:21 Lydia: A criminal trial followed that saw my brother Kevin and I acquitted alongside colleagues.

1:20:25 Thomas: Oh, what happened with your dad?

1:20:27 Lydia: Well, he died, but he was dead.

1:20:30 Thomas: Well, no, but he was convicted of. So it's like if he's saying, no this is before he died, right?

1:20:35 Lydia: Well. No, no, no. So that that trial was after his dad died. And then the report came out after they were acquitted. They had to hold on the report. It took 10 years for them to do the report. The report came out in 2001. His dad died in 1991.

1:20:49 Thomas: Well then, but wasn't, didn't you say his dad was convicted of doing this?

1:20:52 Lydia: He, no, he wasn't convicted because he couldn't have been. But it was that they found he did this. It's just that they, yeah, yeah.

1:20:59 Thomas: What's the owing, what did you tell me in the beginning? So when did that happen? After he died?

1:21:03 Lydia: All of that was discovered after he died. Yeah, yeah? Yeah.

1:21:08 Thomas: I didn't realize that. Okay.

1:21:09 Lydia: So there was no justice. I think eventually people were paid out of public funds out of the UK. They had to pay out the pension, but I think about half of that was funded publicly. But

1:21:19 Matt: The night before he died on the yacht, he had an argument with his son, Kevin, about the fact that he just defaulted on 50 million pounds in loans. Things were not going going well, for what it's worth.

1:21:28 Thomas: Right. I guess my point is it's understood that he did this, right? Like it isn't. Yeah. Okay. So it's funny to be like, yeah, they investigated and the trial that followed, we weren't convicted.

1:21:33 Matt: Pretty conclusive.

1:21:40 Thomas: And it's like, well, okay. But what happened with your dad?

1:21:44 Lydia: Yeah.

1:21:44 Thomas: Like, did they think he did it?

1:21:45 Lydia: Yes, they did.

1:21:46 Thomas: It's like two out of three is not bad.

1:21:49 Lydia: Inspectors from the Department of Trade and Industry then produced lengthy reports. We'll include that link in the show notes if anyone is in the mood to read read some stuff.

1:21:56 Thomas: And what happened? What happened in those reports? Nope. It's a change of topic.

1:22:00 Lydia: Pivot. By the time Ghislaine was indicted in New York in July 2020.

1:22:02 Thomas: What happened to the hole? I want to know where the hole came from. Them yeah

1:22:07 Lydia: How did the whole occur, Ian?

1:22:08 Thomas: Just they found a hole it's so funny be like you found they found like a hole in the bank account it just you know naturally occurring erosion you know just sometimes it's so good

1:22:14 Lydia: My God. Bythe time Ghislaine was indited in New York in 2020, the distinction between the media and the courtroom had blurred. Federal prosecutors announced the charges in a Department of Justice media room next to a blown -up photograph of Epstein and my sister, with earnest talk of, quote, justice for survivors and soundbites.

1:22:36 Thomas: I love that he has to so he has to account for why he was acquitted well back then we still had some justice but then then later they got rid of all that and that's why my sister was convicted no

1:22:47 Lydia: Trial was still 18 months away, but the performance suggested that the important verdict had already been delivered. A 24 -hour cable news and podcast ecosystem. Hi, we're the podcast ecosystem, hungry

1:22:58 Thomas: We were not not this one. We weren't. Yeah.

1:22:59 Lydia: For narrative filled the gaps between hearings. Sketch artists and court reporters recorded what happened in the courtroom proper, as they do like all the time the

1:23:08 Thomas: You're just describing what happened when your sister was very rightfully convicted of crimes.

1:23:12 Lydia: Real show however was outside live tweeted commentary nightly explainers and viral clips and viral clicks of lawyers emerging to deliver polished lines cameras are still banned in america's federal courts that does not curb the theatrics the trial is no longer the main event it is one act in a longer serial whose plot is written by as whose plot is written as much by producers and influencers as by prosecutors and defense counsel.

1:23:16 Thomas: You're just you're saying words. You just describing things. OK, no,

1:23:43 Matt: Remember,

1:23:43 Thomas: Man, they still have the trial. Go ahead.

1:23:45 Matt: This is a guy whose family fortune is based on tablets. I just have to say it again. He's complaining about the 24 -hour news cycle that they helped to catapult into normalcy, right? This is like, okay, anyway, yeah.

1:23:51 Lydia: Cry me a river. Yeah, yeah.

1:23:57 Thomas: Also, the trial still happened. The jury is not supposed to watch that coverage like they're supposed to be not doing that. This now we're back to his dad. Okay.

1:24:09 Lydia: Yeah, you want me to read this paragraph too? My father was cast as an ogre of the city, greedy, bullying, foreign, Jewish, insufficiently deferential to the establishment he sought to join. My sister became something else, A digital age Myra Hindley, a single face through which the Internet could explore and monetize disgust.

1:24:28 Thomas: Who is that?

1:24:29 Matt: Myra Hendley was a serial killer, so I don't know why you want to... I guess Somebody worse than Glenn Maxwell actually killed lots of people.

1:24:37 Thomas: Maybe not a good comparison then.

1:24:39 Matt: Maybe why are you doing that? I don't know.

1:24:40 Thomas: You know, what's funny is my brain wanted to, wanted it to be, uh, do you remember the girl that, um, someone died was like in Italy and there's pictures. And because of the way she looked, everyone said she was guilty. It was like a roommate died or something. You if I could remember the name, you'd know what I was talking about. She, she, there was just pictures where like, because of kind of how her face looks, she just looked guilty and everyone decided she was guilty.

1:25:08 Lydia: She's like RBF and people are holding that against her.

1:25:10 Thomas: Kind of. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's very fit. You know what I'm talking about? Like it's practically like fucking JonBenet Ramsey. I can't remember the name of it. But point is, that's what I thought he was going to go to, because that would be that would make sense. Like if you're like, yeah, it'S a it'S like this where everyone one thought she was guilty and she's not but you're telling me he's referencing an actual serial killer oh

1:25:31 Matt: Child serial killer. Someone who's sexually abused and killed children. I forgot to mention that part. Because there

1:25:33 Thomas: My wow a single face through which the internet could explore and monetize disgust yeah

1:25:40 Matt: Are some people where we all step back and say, hey, that's pretty disgusting. That's how this works.

1:25:45 Thomas: That's a weird that's weird comparison to do okay oh

1:25:48 Lydia: From the moment of her arrest, she was almost never described as, quote, the accused. She was Epstein's, quote, madam, his, quote fixer, the, quote face of an evil network. Viral posts push bogus, quote co -conspirator lists dressed up as court documents. Conspiracy theories about missing, quote client lists flooded social feeds, even though no such list formed part of Ghislaine's criminal case.

1:25:54 Thomas: Shut up

1:26:11 Matt: Supreme

1:26:11 Thomas: Oh the criminal case where she was convicted and she was in prison now yeah you yeah

1:26:16 Lydia: Also, this co -conspirator thing, too. I mean, again, this is post -release of the Epstein Files, where the FBI had compiled a slideshow of, like, potential co - conspirators, people to look into. To.

1:26:24 Thomas: It's just so funny to be like Like, it's the logic of trial by media. She had a trial. She had an actual trial, asshole. So stupid. It's like if she was, it'S like if she had been found innocent or not guilty and then this still, everyone thought she was guilty, at least you'd be making a point like, hey, she was not found guilty, but like she was found guilty.

1:26:53 Lydia: The logic of trial by media has migrated into politics, too. When my sister invoked the Fifth Amendment before the House Oversight Committee this month, members treated a core constitutional safeguard as if it were proof of guilt, asking, quote, who is she protecting and hinting at a cover up. More strikingly, the attorney general, Pam Bondi, during a televised appearance before the house judiciary committee, said that Ghislaine would, quote hopefully die in prison. This is not the language of a justice system committed to impartial process.

1:27:21 Thomas: Oh, no, because they're done with that part. They did the process and she's guilty and she'S in prison.

1:27:25 Matt: Court turned down her cert petition. She's done, done. That's it. So, yeah.

1:27:29 Thomas: You don't have to still pretend she's not guilty that's not how it works I

1:27:33 Lydia: Law is meant to cool passions. The modern content economy is designed to inflame them.

1:27:39 Thomas: Mean sure but in this case isn't that

1:27:40 Matt: But again, you know what British tabloids look like, right? I mean, like,

1:27:44 Thomas: The one thing that's worse than america the american version of it yeah stupid here

1:27:51 Matt: This is pretty funny, the comparison England and Wales,

1:27:53 Thomas: We go so

1:27:54 Lydia: In England and Wales, contempt of court and sub - what is that?

1:27:58 Matt: Judiciary, I guess.

1:27:58 Thomas: I mean

1:27:59 Lydia: Subjudiciary rules place real limits on what may be broadcast or printed once proceedings are are active. Prosecutors and police are expected to avoid grandstanding in ways that might prejudice a jury. Editors who overstep risk prosecution. In the U.S., the First Amendment affords far wider latitude. Prosecutors now

1:28:16 Matt: The real criminal, the First Amendment, the real perpetrator.

1:28:20 Lydia: Habitually hold press conferences to announce charges in which suspects are paraded in language and imagery designed for television. Television.

1:28:27 Thomas: Not really and when they do that it's bad for them like, I mean, you can't really parade suspects. I mean it wasn't, isn't that a mark against like the Luigi Mangione stuff? Like it's not good that they, it's not good for them that they did that stuff, right? I mean.

1:28:42 Matt: We just talked about this on OA recently in the context of Don Lemon prosecution, the way that Hermie Dillon was going out there and just constantly posting about Don Lemon and the other defendants. Like, that's very bad. You're not supposed to do it. And it's bad for the case. It might really backfire on her. He's not wrong about a lot of this.

1:28:55 Thomas: It's also not the norm. Yeah, yeah. It's like when it happens it's bad, but it's Not the norm I did this happen with Gillen Maxwell. I don't remember it. I don' t remember.

1:29:00 Matt: No, it shouldn't be. As usual, the usual cable news commentary, right? And like,

1:29:06 Thomas: No, but, but like, but when you actually talk about prosecutors grandstanding and like, I didn't, I don't remember that. I could be wrong. I don'T remember.

1:29:13 Matt: I don't think that. I

1:29:14 Thomas: It's pretty

1:29:13 Lydia: Because because I bet

1:29:14 Matt: Think they were just doing the usual First

1:29:14 Lydia: You they took it seriously.

1:29:15 Thomas: Trumpy of a thing. Yeah. Well,

1:29:17 Lydia: Cable hosts and podcast pundits discuss guilt as if they were jurors in a drama series. Judges occasionally rebuke such behavior. They rarely stop it.

1:29:25 Thomas: That's fine. Why would we're allowed to do that? That's fine?

1:29:30 Lydia: Also, they do also stop it, I mean, like, like.

1:29:34 Thomas: Well, the jury's not supposed to be watching that. That's what matters. The jury is not supposed to consume coverage like that. We can talk about it.

1:29:40 Lydia: But but in in like, you know, the the lively Baldoni case, like Brian Friedman got he he got shut up to be like, you can't do this.

1:29:46 Thomas: Well yeah, that'S actual participants. Yeah. If you're, you're if you're a participant in the trial but he's just saying cable hosts and podcast pundits we can do whatever the fuck we want asshole yeah

1:29:55 Lydia: It's America.

1:29:57 Matt: Amendment. Well, that is the other thing. I love this British view of the First Amendment because he is not wrong. You can be prosecuted in the UK for libel as a crime. It can be a criminal offense. And other parts of Europe too. Too. And that's not great. That's not something we should encourage. I'm going to put that out there.

1:30:09 Thomas: I don't know I mean I don'T KNOW WHAT'S THE BETTER SYSTEM BUT THE POINT IS THIS IS NOTHING THAT HAPPENED WITH HER TRIAL IS EVEN ON THE LIKE FAR END OF THIS LIKE IT'S NOT EVEN PART OF IT

1:30:17 Matt: Just normal for us anyway.

1:30:19 Lydia: What has changed is that American norms have appeared to Trump -British safeguards.

1:30:24 Matt: That is what happens when you do crimes in America.

1:30:26 Thomas: YEAH YOU'RE SHE'S YOU KNOW WHAT COUNTRY SHE WAS IN RIGHT ALSO

1:30:30 Lydia: When my sister was arrested, the rhythms of American crime coverage — again, yeah, it's America —

1:30:34 Thomas: WAIT WASN'T THERE ALL THIS STUFF ABOUT HER BEING FRENCH SHOULDN'T SHE WHY DOESN'T she get the french system okay

1:30:36 Lydia: Leaks, press conferences, talking head panels set the tone for reporting far beyond Manhattan. The idea that her charges might have been stayed in London because of prejudicial publicity looked quaint in a world where the internet had already convened a global jury. Enter Andrew Montbatten Windsor. Last week, police arrested, quote, a man in his 60s from Norfolk on suspicion of misconduct in public office linked to his association with Epstein and search properties in Norfolk and Berkshire. He has since been released under investigation. No charges have been filed. Andrew has long denied all allegations of criminal wrongdoing.

1:30:56 Matt: Do we have to?

1:30:58 Thomas: Not anymore okay so you're saying a lot of things that happened as though describing them is an argument but it's not you're just describing things

1:31:22 Lydia: That's his journalistic style, Thomas. Andrew has long denied all allegations of criminal wrongdoing, yet in narrative terms, the verdict was rendered years ago after his calamitous Newsnight interview.

1:31:36 Thomas: Whose fault was that did he oh people made him do an interview and then they made him say really dumb things.

1:31:42 Matt: Disastrous interview.

1:31:43 Thomas: Yeah. That's the media for you. Giving him an uncensored interview where he fucking buried himself. Typical yellow journalism. This is long.

1:31:44 Lydia: Images of police activity at Wood Farm on the The Sandringham estate of Andrew's discreet transfer into custody and

1:32:01 Thomas: Maybe we, yeah.

1:32:02 Lydia: His conspicuous exit from Elisham police station were instantly packaged for social media. Britain does not habitually stage the American perp walk. This came close. A royal already disgraced in the court of public opinion, framed through the lens of humiliation. And he's not a royal anymore. So let's be clear. You don't get to say that anymore. The temptation to see this as a simple morality play privilege at last brought to book is understandable. It is also corrosive.

1:32:28 Matt: Here we go. Here is his real problem. Leave us alone.

1:32:31 Thomas: That's this. Here we go. I love this.

1:32:32 Matt: We are too rich for this.

1:32:32 Lydia: Matt, you want me to skip to just the highlight stuff that you have in here?

1:32:38 Matt: Let's keep it tight here.

1:32:39 Lydia: All right, skipping ahead a little bit just to get to the meat of it all. Nor is the potential for distortion confined to newsrooms and social media platforms. The Epstein Victims Compensation Program and related settlements have dispersed more than $170 million, with an extra $35 million proposed as of this month, while the wider universe of claims against Epstein's estate state and associated entities.

1:33:01 Thomas: That's money Epstein rightfully stole. That shouldn't go to the fucking victims.

1:33:04 Lydia: There was a hole. There was a whole. We discovered a hole with an

1:33:08 Thomas: They found a hole in Epstein's estate. To put it in language you understand, asshole. Looks like someone found a hole in Epsteins estate. That's a good one.

1:33:19 Lydia: Extra thirty five million dollars proposed as of this month, while the wider universe of claims against Epstein's estate and associated entities is now often put at close to one billion dollars on standard contingency fees. That implies applies hundreds of millions of dollars flowing not only to claimants, but also to the lawyers who represent them. That does not discredit any individual accuser. What it does mean, though, is that money sits very close to the construction of the, quote, truth the world is encouraged to consume.

1:33:46 Thomas: That money. But no money on the other side. No money on The Prince Andrew side. There was no money. The very money you're talking about is is the money that was first used to bully and silence accusers.

1:33:57 Lydia: And silence victims, right.

1:33:58 Thomas: Yeah, victims. Like it's, that didn't count. That's normal. That's stuff that he thinks should be good. But if victims are maybe going to be compensated, then that's totally compromised the judicial process.

1:34:12 Lydia: Yeah, right, well, because the lawyers, now they're getting their money.

1:34:15 Thomas: Unbelievable.

1:34:15 Lydia: That's what they They were in it for the entire time.

1:34:17 Matt: This is literally after he died to make sure that people got paid. Then the victim's compensation stuff in the non -prosecution agreement, as you can imagine, was not too powerful. You

1:34:29 Lydia: Skipping ahead a little bit, reputation once shredded is hard to repair. My father was never tried, let alone convicted. Yet the inspector's report, published after the criminal trial, was damning about his conduct. He was, quote, blameworthy in ways that did not map neatly onto criminal charges. In the public mind, he is now remembered chiefly as a crook, not as the decorated soldier, outstanding publisher and entrepreneur he once was. Was god

1:34:54 Matt: Steal a few hundred million pounds and unglamorous.

1:34:57 Thomas: In people's pension. And then all of a sudden you're the villain.

1:34:59 Lydia: It's so crazy because it's like it's not the first time he yeah anyway whatever there's a lot in there from like the 70s too anyway um for my sister the problem is sharper she was convicted after a widely covered trial the appeals that followed have been technical and unglamorous

1:35:06 Thomas: Jesus. Oh, I love this. How'd they go? How'd those go?

1:35:19 Lydia: They do not compete with the vivid story the internet has already told

1:35:23 Thomas: They also don't do anything because they fucking failed, right?

1:35:26 Matt: They weren't on the facts. Of course they're unglamourous. They're technical because she was completely guilty of what she she was convicted of.

1:35:33 Lydia: Her most recent petition, filed last December, together with some 1 ,000 pages of supporting evidence, argues that her trial was unfair and constitutional safeguards were brushed aside. One point made by the petition is that a juror did not disclose a history of sexual abuse, therefore making them biased. No one can begin to understand her defense without reading that petition. It has been largely ignored because it jars with the clickbait narrative. Even if the federal court currently considering it orders an evidentiary hearing the reputational ratchet will barely move and

1:35:56 Thomas: I'm going to rely on the justice system. Oh, they dismissed it, it says.

1:36:07 Matt: Strangely, it doesn't mention the Supreme Court cert petition, which was based entirely on her allegation that the non -prosecution agreement with Jeffrey Epstein covered her. That was her entire argument in the Supreme court.

1:36:09 Lydia: Interesting

1:36:15 Thomas: Which weirdly was a good argument, actually.

1:36:17 Matt: But you know, that Supreme court, I think correctly found that it wasn't binding.

1:36:19 Thomas: But it's still, but note that that's still that's her best argument. And it's because it's a very unjust bullshit that happened. And it still wouldn't mean she wasn't guilty. It would mean that they shouldn't have been allowed to prosecute the guilty person. Like that still isn't innocence, you fucking moron.

1:36:33 Matt: Technical and unglamorous. Yeah.

1:36:36 Thomas: Yeah, that's another word for it.

1:36:33 Lydia: Right exactly all right skipping this bit about andrew for a second lawyers and academics yeah have proposed remedies judges could exercise tighter control over pre -trial publicity Publicity.

1:36:41 Matt: More injury, please.

1:36:47 Thomas: Remedies to what? She's convicted. She's where she should be. It's so good. Oh, man, they're

1:36:53 Lydia: Police

1:36:53 Matt: Well, we want to be sure that no sex traffickers are are ever convicted again. So not

1:36:54 Lydia: And prosecutors could be given clear rules on public comment. Juries could receive stronger directions to disregard media coverage, backed by practical steps such as stricter sequestration in high -profile cases.

1:37:05 Thomas: Pretty strong. Yeah, I mean, they do that. But sure, I guess they could do it a little more. Just disruptive to people's lives. But yeah,

1:37:15 Lydia: Right. Legislatures could explore, quote, right -to -be -forgotten style tools for those acquitted or whose convictions are quashed.

1:37:22 Matt: My sister to be clear, but

1:37:22 Thomas: You know what? We'll spot you that one. Yeah you you you can have that for any of your sisters who are acquitted or convictions are quashed go ahead yeah

1:37:26 Matt: Yeah. All of those, those are fine. I can get with all of that. I mean, that's fine. Whatever. At

1:37:34 Lydia: But they're not going to make a difference for your sister. Such efforts face structural obstacles. Courts move slowly. Newsrooms and platforms move at the speed of the algorithm. A prosecutor who refuses to grandstand or an editor who declines to speculate risks being out -competed by less scrupulous rivals. Like tabloids.

1:37:52 Matt: The Daily Mirror, the editor who declines to speculate, they're not going to make it at the Daily Mirror, that editor who declines to speculate. That's incredible.

1:37:53 Thomas: Like the daily media it's unbelievable unbelievable okay

1:37:55 Lydia: Like my father's entire empire. Empire. Attempts to regulate platforms trigger free speech worries. A healthier system would restore distance between accusation and conviction, confine performance to the courtroom, and remind people that outrage is not itself a form of justice. The question raised by the stories of Epstein, Ghislaine, and Andrew is whether such a system is still politically, culturally, or commercially possible. For now, the answer is bleak. We no longer simply read about trials we binge watch them we no longer merely await verdicts we perform them the algorithm is judge jury and publisher everyone watching imagines themselves part of justice in fact they are part of the show yeah

1:38:42 Matt: Have we mentioned our sister show, Gabble Gabble?

1:38:45 Lydia: Where we perform Form them.

1:38:47 Thomas: This is just the most desperate bullshit crap I mean it's so god what a prick what a fucking prick or I just to use your parlance what a knob you fucking knob god what an idiot like every single argument is so dumb every argument isso fucking dumb you just describe stuff and thinks it's an argument well and then they had a jury and there's tv talked about her trial like yeah okay that's that did happen

1:38:48 Matt: Literally. Yeah, this

1:39:03 Lydia: What a Todd. Yeah,

1:39:19 Thomas: Yeah not that doesn't mean anything I'll

1:39:20 Lydia: Matt, do you think if we had like televised federal federal trials that that would kind of cut off some of the issues? Because I mean there are there are issues with how like especially some entities talk about what's happening in trials do you think like that would cut it off at all or or is that not I don't yeah I don' know

1:39:42 Thomas: Probably make it worse wouldn't it

1:39:43 Matt: Is a really popular topic of debate in my my household. Because I'm coming around. Because honestly, nothing against us. I think this is a great show. We're having a lot of fun. But everybody would do this, which is cut up clips of the federal court. Maybe that's good. Maybe it's not. I don't know. But there would just be this huge industry of out -of -context federal clips. It'd be AI stuff, whatever. I know.

1:40:02 Lydia: They do it anyway really

1:40:03 Thomas: Yeah, I don't know. I don' think it's good.

1:40:05 Matt: It's hard to imagine.

1:40:06 Thomas: I, yeah, I don't think so. I dunno.

1:40:07 Matt: I feel like it's better that people feel comfortable testifying and that lawyers don't feel like they're performing for a global audience in cases like this.

1:40:14 Thomas: I could, here's what I could see. I don't if this works within our legal framework, Matt, but I could see it being the kind of thing that you could find and watch, but you shouldn't be able to like use in the media. That would be interesting. If it's like, all right, you're allowed to, there's some stuff like that, right? Just within our our system.

1:40:31 Matt: Well, yeah, like all the audio that we're trying to get for these, I mean, we just, any, any kind of federal case we want to cover, we can't get the audio. We can get the transcripts. We can pay for somebody to generate it, but yeah.

1:40:39 Thomas: I mean, but if the footage were available, but it legally worked in such a way that you're only allowed to like consume it yourself and you're not allowed to, like, rebroadcast or do anything with it. I don't know if the U .S. system has other stuff like that. I feel like there might be something that fits that category.

1:40:48 Matt: Publish. Yeah. Yeah.

1:40:55 Thomas: But yeah, that that that I think would make sense if anyone can see it, but you can't like repackage it and use it. That could could be interesting

1:40:55 Matt: You could regulate that. Right. Or you could quote it in the media, you know, for print stories or whatever, but you can't. It's just, people should feel comfortable testifying in federal court and lawyers should be doing their jobs instead of playing to an audience like that.

1:41:10 Thomas: I could see that hurting victims a lot if it's like they another way that they don't want to you know tell their story I don't know you'll just have to rely on gavel gavel everybody

1:41:19 Lydia: Interesting Interesting. Interesting. I guess so.

1:41:21 Matt: Yeah. We're here for you.

1:41:23 Thomas: All right well that was that was fun that guy fucking sucks jesus christ what an asshole what

1:41:28 Matt: Yeah, that might have been two hours more than he deserved, but I really think he deserved a spotlight for a minute there.

1:41:32 Thomas: Hey he wants his attention he let's give it to him you fucking prick. What a douchebag.

1:41:35 Lydia: We're going to give it to him. Yes.

1:41:38 Matt: We read your work.

1:41:39 Thomas: Some of the most arrogant bullshit I've ever read in my life. That's, that's amazing.

1:41:43 Matt: Please keep writing. We need more content.

1:41:45 Lydia: Where are you vacationing right now, Ian?

1:41:47 Thomas: Put it on your homepage.

1:41:49 Lydia: Tell me.

1:41:49 Thomas: All right. Um, well, yeah,

1:41:50 Matt: The homepage.

1:41:51 Lydia: The homepage.

1:41:52 Thomas: Well thanks so much for watching everybody and listening. Uh, thanks Matt. Thanks Lydia for, for going through all that. Um wow. What an asshole. Uh we'll see you for rapid response Friday on the podcast feed.

1:42:08 Clip: This has been Opening Arguments, produced by Thomas and Lydia Smith, with editing help from Peter Baird. The intro is by Thomas Smith. This outro is by Matt Cameron. Support the show at patreon.com/law. Contact us through Patreon or openarguments@gmail.com. Make sure to follow our blue sky at OpenArgs. But most of all, please share the show. Thanks for listening.