Minnesota NoICE - Matt Went to Minneapolis and Has So Much to Tell Us

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:08 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Opening Arguments. This is a technically a vapid response Wednesday, but a little different today. No video this week because Matt is traveling. I'm Thomas, that over there is real life immigration attorney. Are you technically on vacation or just like somewhere else? Oh, God. Wow. What? Why? Yeah. Yeah, we I teased that the other week that you were going to Minneapolis, then the scheduling didn't work out because we had to talk about the Epstein drop after that. So I'm glad we're finally talking about this.

0:00:23 Matt: It's a working vacation. I was inspired after last week's four hours of Jeffrey Epstein to come down and visit the Virgin Islands. So I am just miles away from little St. James. I'll be going by it on the boat. Yeah, I know. Kind of a strange coincidence. Didn't really mean to do that. But yeah. St. Thomas, I got to say, a beautiful place. I strong recommend. It's just a great place to show up. But I'm here to talk about the other major news story of the year, which is Minneapolis, which I was just in at the end of January. So just kind of a weird coincidence. I I had to get away after going from Boston to Minneapolis to find somewhere warmer, because that was just too much. It was the coldest place I've ever been. So I had an invitation I could not pass up from my good friend and friend of the show,

0:01:07 Thomas: Before we go to the first break, what was your purpose? How did you end up there?

0:01:15 Matt: Megan Coleman, who's a state senator for Rhode Island from Pawtucket. And she was going for an event through States Future, which I'll tell you a little bit more after the break. Just an outstanding event of lawmakers. Probably the first time, as far as anybody knows, since 1814 that anything like this has ever happened. So I got to be in the room. I was the only journalist or anybody resembling a journalist in the room for this meeting, and I want to tell you about it. It was really something, and I got a lot of hope out of this entire thing, so I want to pass that along.

0:01:41 Thomas: I'm really excited. That's super cool. And like you said, we'll have to get to it after the break. So we'll take our first break here. Patreon.com slash law if you want to get all the goodies. Law of the Movies is coming out. It's going to be out like today, hopefully. It'll be today or tomorrow.

0:01:53 Matt: Sweet.

0:01:55 Thomas: I just have to do the final pass through. It's gonna be super fun. So Patreon.com/law. If you'd like to get us making fun of Kim Kardashian's new law show, which was so bad dear god it was bad but it was bad in the best most fun way it was psychotic I don't even know it was so fun so grab that on patreon

0:02:14 Matt: Yeah, it's the kind of thing I never would have watched otherwise, but just hanging out and talking to you and Lydia about it is always the best time, so it was a fun one. Yeah.

0:02:22 Thomas: And uh of course skip the ads we'll take that first break and then we'll hear about matt's trip all right matt do you time traveled back to 1817 or something what was tell us about your trip and the metro surge is it's still going right

0:02:36 Matt: So yeah, this was totally last minute, totally unexpected. I had to buy, as we previewed before, new underwear, new thermals. Never had those before. Fantastic. Strong recommendation for Uniqlo if you need to stock up quickly. Never had a proper puffy jacket to put under my overcoat. Just all kinds of preparations I had to make because this is America's coldest city and its coldest month. It was sub-zero temperatures the whole time I was there. I could not take out my phone and film without having my hands shake to take off my gloves. So quite a time, even coming from Boston. But yeah, no, it was a really, really encouraging experience. There was a lot of warmth even for all of that. And I have to say just up front, the people of Minneapolis and the lawmakers of Minneapolis, just between these two groups that I was meeting and talking to for three days, both absolutely model response, just in every single way that you can imagine, just a model response to an invasion. Because they have been under occupation, as one of the lawmakers reminded us, for 59 days as of the time that I was there. And Metro Surge started at the beginning of December, and they've been operating under a really extreme ICE presence. And so we were there to kind of understand that and make sense of what we could and try to learn from it. So I think that was the main purpose, and it was really, I think, very helpful. It is, and that was a big topic of conversation while we were There, because that was The Week that Tom Homan showed up, that they sent Greg Bovino packing. And I think it was all just a little bit of kabuki theater. I don't think that anything was really happening. They are, you know, slightly drawing down, but from the people I've stayed in touch with and what I'm watching, things have not changed on the ground in Minneapolis that much, you

0:04:12 Thomas: Yeah oh I hate bruce springsteen so haven't but I respect

0:04:13 Matt: Know, so that's really a problem. But, you Know, the real theme that came out was any one of us could be next. And it was really an amazing time to have all these state legislators come together and just kind of get a preview of what this kind of enforcement looks like, just to kind of drive around and see the signal chats and see the empty cars, the side of the road, and police have to show up. I mean, there's actually, on the Minneapolis local website, there is just a place where you can report that your car was abandoned because ICE got you or that you're aware of an abandoned car. Like, that's the point at which we've reached now. There's just abandoned cars everywhere. So it was really something to learn from. So on my way through, I flew through Newark and I went to law school there in New Jersey. And just as I was landing, I saw that Bruce Springsteen had released Streets of Minneapolis, which I'm sure you've heard by now. Oh, oh, wow. We have a division of opinion on the boss. All right. Didn't know that. I've spent three years in New Jersey, so I have to be loyal, but I also really appreciate, he's a student of protest music, and this is a, I think it's the best protest song written in my lifetime that I'm aware of, certainly for mass market. Yeah. I keep waiting. I keep waiting for somebody to do one for our times. And this really seems to be the one. I just knew that at some point, unfortunately it took the murder of two US citizens within a month, but somebody had to write an anti-DHS protest song. And here it is. It's a great song.

0:05:00 Thomas: The political uh message of it yeah yeah yeah this sort of fell off after bob dylan there's that one guy who all he does is that that I see on uh on the fed but I just say I don't really like it

0:05:35 Matt: Yes. Jesse Wells, I think. He's great. Yeah. No, sorry. Jesse Wells. Yes. Sorry to confuse you,

0:05:37 Thomas: Jesse Waters, no, that's the Fox News guy. I think it's Wells, or something. Well, yeah, Jesse that's like the worst confusion ever that's It's like mistaking Bob Dylan for the Monopoly Man or something. It's, like, completely opposite. Yeah.

0:05:46 Matt: Jesse Wells, that would be a career change or kid rock. But no, it was cool because I heard it, you know, throughout the streets of Minneapolis, people were actually playing it. And I actually just missed Bruce. He was just playing a block away from where I was. I didn't know, but but I'm a big fan. I was very excited. His "Secret Sessions" album, Strong Recommend, that's one of my favorite Bruce Springsteen recordings of all time. And he's obviously been studying this for a long time. So my point is, I was encouraged. Of course, here I am on my way to Minneapolis, landing in New Jersey, home of the boss, on my way. And so this whole trip was a whirlwind. It was a lot of fun. I was trying to gonzo it a little bit. I didn't sleep very much. Just tried to get out and talk to everybody I could. Immediately, as soon as I got in, I was absolutely starving. It Was late at night. I just went around the corner, had out a beer and a piece of pizza and just started talking to everybody around me. And it's all anybody wants to talk about, which I completely understand. You know, I immediately, the bartender gave me an ICE out sticker for my phone that I've still got. I just started talking, and shout out to

0:06:47 Matt: My friends, Sean and Quinn, hanging out at the bar. Awesome times. Did not actually get a whistle.

0:06:50 Thomas: Would you get any whistles?

0:06:53 Matt: I should have gotten a whistle, I know. I went to Minneapolis and didn't get a whistle. There were a lot of whistles. Yeah, yeah. And I, really, there are a couple of themes that

0:06:53 Thomas: Ah, should have gotten a whistle. I feel like that could be lyrics in the protest song. Went to Minneapolis and didn't get a whistle? We'll work on it. The boss, if you're listening.

0:07:07 Matt: That came out starting with that conversation. And one of them was, it's a lot worse than you think, right? There's just no way for the media to document this. Even the best independent media can't be everywhere at once. But on the other side, the other theme I kept hearing is it's better than you think because people are organized and they're disciplined and they are together in a way that I've just never seen people organize in just a regular community. I mean, it is incredible. And everybody I talked to was doing something. Even the art student I was talking to was donating as much as she could, doing mutual aid, showing up. There's a sex shop around the corner that was organizing and getting stuff out.

0:07:38 Thomas: Oh, yeah, I heard a sex shop was, like the HQ for something.

0:07:38 Matt: Yeah, for mutual aids.

0:07:42 Thomas: That was on one of the news podcasts.

0:07:44 Matt: Yeah, it was great.

0:07:45 Thomas: Yeah. Nice. Huh. Hmm. Nice, yeah, he's been great lately. Wow. Right. God. If there's anything less

0:07:45 Matt: Yeah, no, just really, this is how people step up in a time like this. And there's just so much we can learn in our communities from this. And even just the starting advice that Megan had told me before, just go get everybody's number in your neighborhood. Just be ready, because we all have to be ready for this. Just make sure that you can get them together in a signal chat if you need to. And the way that these people are organized, the way they've divided the labor, the way that they're able to follow ICE and show up at any given time, any enforcement action and peacefully make their voices heard and chase them away in many cases. I mean, it's very hard for them to do their jobs when there's crowds of people around them. So I got up early and went over to the Minnesota Senate, where I spent most of the day on the 29th, and just an incredible gathering. I can tell you a little bit about what was going on here with States Futures. A lot of this was off the record, so I couldn't really record anything. But I can talk to you about people I talked to and what we talked about. Out. And they started out with a bang because we had breakfast and Keith Ellis and the attorney general came into this small room and just gave an awesome 15 minute pep talk. Incredible speaker. I've always been a fan. I actually, yeah, no, he's, I mean, their suit hasn't been working out so far. We'll talk about that a little later, but the energy he's bringing and the passion and just he's completely dedicated to this. And the way he talked about it was really inspiring. And I think the lawmakers really inspired too. Went around the room and introduced, you know, a lot of people people that were there. Just an incredible range of people. We got people from just every part of the country, even red states. There were a lot of people, I think the biggest delegation was actually from Montana, from this group. And there's this ongoing theme of, we can let the red states kind of be the cushion here. We've got Democrats in red states that want to step up and help. They're fully expecting and they're already seeing places like Idaho are getting crushing amounts of immigration raids. There was a delegation from North Dakota, including some some native tribal members. There was one real theme that I was very surprised by in this whole thing was the way that native people are being affected by ICE enforcement. It's just really unfortunate. Yeah.

0:09:44 Thomas: Just in the world, I don't know what it is. Like, are stupid ICE forces coming in and telling Native Americans that they need to, I dunno what, get papers or something? I don' t even know what, what, yeah. It's just, it's, it' s ugly. Oh, man. You know, I'll go ahead and say it. I think Native

0:09:58 Matt: There was really compelling testimony from Chase Iron Eyes. I'd love to have him on sometime, an attorney for the Sacred Stone who was talking about what it means for his people and just for the native peoples he works with. They've been specifically targeting unhoused native people, and you know he was saying that a lot of native people from Ecuador and Guatemala and lots of other places you know to ice agents and maybe they all look the same could be. Yeah, that's right.

0:10:20 Thomas: Native Americans should legally be able to deport ICE. They're like, hey, this is, we were here first. You can, we'll deport you, actually.

0:10:26 Matt: Yeah, well they're trying to keep them off of tribal land and I think that's part of the conflict here is that they're trying to say that we don't need ICE on our land and I think that the retaliation but you know there were people from all over there 27 states represented total in this group and just an incredible range of progressive legislators coming together with these ideas and this energy that I just really enjoyed. And we went to the federal subcommittee hearing for the Minnesota Senate. So the full legislature isn't going to be back in session until the 17th, but they're already kind of gearing up to start to pass some things. And this was a full hearing room. This was hours of testimony, and I really appreciated the way they put this hearing together. It was every part of society in Minnesota represented. You had health care, child care, businesses, community groups, all these different representations. Invitations. Yeah, just to show, right? So far have not been targeted. We're not going after

0:10:31 Thomas: God, you would hope. One member of the Minnesota Vikings had to show up and be like, in uniform. Yeah.

0:11:20 Matt: The Vikings. But so I wanted to play a quick clip here from my favorite part, from Senator Erin McQuaid. And she's awesome. She's a very Minnesota kind of combination. She is a biracial. I think she's one of the first openly lesbian people to serve in the legislature and strict Lutheran. She gave a great speech here, which I wanted to play a little bit of about sort of an introduction to of this. Now, she was coming right after, I should point out, Jordan Rasmusen, who was the only Republican member, who kept doing the Republican thing. He was a very Republican-looking guy, kind of a regular white guy in a suit. And he kept kind of butting in and asking questions about why we're still doing sanctuary policies, completely just not acknowledging the moment or why we're here. So some of what she's saying is in response to him. Yeah. That's a good stop. Yeah, she's

0:11:56 Thomas: Jeez. Well, to be a Republican is to have lived a life of always being the most unwelcome person in every single room of people like this. So you know he's probably used to man I don't even want to stop it's so good wow what a speech

0:14:19 Matt: Great. Yeah she's a real star of the hearing. Yeah and I have to say too, I have never seen more people get choked up, get emotional in public. They were all the way through this, there were lawmakers, and you could hear her getting a little passionate there, but people were crying. I was choked up pretty much every day. There was something that made me cry throughout this, and certainly in this hearing multiple times. Even having heard so many of these stories before as an immigration attorney every day, even knowing what's going on, just showing up and hearing it and just seeing people tell their stories, just unbelievable. They also told the story of Victor Manuel Diaz, who came from Nicaragua, and I hadn't heard this one actually, but he had been working at a dairy farm in a restaurant that was raided by ICE on the 6th of January. And he was another one of the people that died in that East Mota camp in Texas. And DHS is refusing to give too many details. They're claiming that it was suicide. The family doesn't believe it. And his name came up a few times. Just remembering all the many other people that have died in DHS custody within the past year. Really good, broad, and obviously, Renee Good and Alex Petty were top of mind for obvious reasons. But this hearing was just a really impressive array of community groups and business leaders and mayors just coming in to tell their stories, just endless stories about what they've been going through in this occupation. And there's no other way to put it. And so what I mentioned before, that state lawmakers have not come together like this since 1814, that was actually the Hartford Convention. That was something I'd never even heard of before. But the New England states came together to fight the tyranny of James Madison, as strange as it is to think of now. During the War of 1814 they were so upset by what the War of 1812 was doing. They thought it was a pointless war with Britain, and I think they were probably right, but it was cutting off supplies. There was actually something passed hilariously called the Anti-Intercourse Act, which is very American, which had stopped a lot of trade. There were all these other things happening, and then some sort of successor after that to it. But they came together and actually had proposed constitutional amendments that would sort of restore New England's power. What they saw as the original sort of colonial power. There was talk of secession. Unfortunately, it was about a few weeks before the Battle of New Orleans when the War of 1812 ended. So it didn't really do much good. The Federalists pretty much fell apart at that point. But it was an interesting sort of comparison point because it was the only time that anybody was aware of in U.S. history when state lawmakers had come together. There's about 26 of them, I think, in the Hartford Convention. And they didn't keep notes. It was a secret meeting, so we didn't know that much about what they talked

0:14:26 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah oh god wow oh yeah geez geez yeah right yeah ever since that white lady did all that fraud

0:16:42 Matt: About. But similar kind of thing, though, where they were coming together to fight the federal government to strategize and to think about ways that they could enhance the power of the states. And the phrase states' rights was used quite a lot during this meeting, as you might imagine. I'm just so impressed by Minnesota. They're still recovering from the murder of Melissa Hortman, their former Speaker of the House and her husband, and the attempted murders of others. And there was this kind of ongoing theme as I talked to people that nothing really happened in Minneapolis until 2020. And then suddenly it felt like they were the middle of the universe, you know, with George Floyd. And, you know, actually, the representative who represents the district, if you can imagine this, Aisha Gomez represents the district in which George Floyd, Alex Petty and Renee Good were all killed. So she's been living through this. She is an incredible person, really impressed by what she had to say and her passion. And you know every one of these people, too, they're not just lawmakers. They're all community members. They are all actively involved in helping with mutual aid, with coordinating, with helping helping people with legal assistance. A lot of them testified about and talked in private about how they're getting up at 6 in the morning, how they're monitoring signal chats, how they're trying to do everything they can to help. This is absolutely the model of what lawmakers can do, almost the extreme end of how involved they can be and how much beyond it can go from just lawmaking. So this hearing went on for quite a while. There's quite a lot to talk about. But the themes that are coming back, we met for dinner at a local carpenter's union and heard from all of these different community groups, and I just could not believe. I mean, Minnesota, I didn't know that much about it, never been there before, but for a place that is stereotypically very white, and it certainly is, you've got one of the largest Hmong communities in the United States. It's the Southeast Asian sort of mountain people sort of across Southeast Asia. A lot of refugees that came over after Vietnam talked about their service, their commitment to the country and what they've been doing and how they've be targeted, especially during all of this. Obviously, the Somali community has been hit like nowhere else because that was the justification for Metro Surge. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah I talked to Abdi, an organizer who's

0:18:41 Thomas: I blamed it on yeah wow yeah what kind of training is this what is

0:18:45 Matt: Telling me just about you know all of the work he's doing right now throughout the community and all the people who are terrified to leave their homes. That was another theme that kept coming out was but also you know the South Asian community, the Latino community, all of the different legal organizations are working together. I talked with someone for a while named Sarah Lopez whose organization now has trained 28,000 people in the past couple of of months, just these incredible trainings. And I'm just talking about how they're doing that, because it's something we all need to be ready to do, something lawyers can certainly help with, but lawyers aren't required to do. It's certainly something that's knowledge that we can pass along and trainings that we Can do. About 6,000 people are in the field right now as rapid responders, you know, showing up in just pretty extensive. She said, actually, at this point, they know that ICE is coming to these trainings, too. So they're just welcoming them, basically. Because, you know they've got infiltrators everywhere. And that's the other thing, too, is, you a lot of these conversations, but, you know, I was coming in as sort of a trusted member. I didn't want to take advantage too much. And people get very suspicious when you come up and start asking them questions about what they're doing to fight ICE, right? So you have to kind of build some trust. I totally understand that because there are infiltrators everywhere. So I'm just going to summarize some of these communications I had. But yeah, she was saying that they basically, they just welcome ICE and they say, look, this is what we're teaching people. It's nonviolence. It's observation. These are legal observers. These aren't people that are here to get in the way. They very specifically teach them all the stuff we've been talking about for months now about how you can't get in the way of arrest you can do anything especially now knowing what the stakes can be you don't want to do anything that looks like um you know it

0:20:14 Thomas: Yeah yeah it's not about them it's about someone out there not getting murdered again

0:20:16 Matt: Might be any kind of violation of the law or anything that works like an assault and of course you know at this point obviously Alex Preddy wasn't doing that um but and there's nothing we can do if they're going to go rogue that way but um you now I'm just really impressed yeah and they're they're really trying but you know I I am just I mean I remember I was coming five days after Alex Preddy was killed in the street. And I could not believe that the energy and the people even knowing now, knowing the stakes and knowing how bad it can be, seeing two members of their community killed within a month, you've got more people than ever coming to these trainings. I mean, as I said, it's out the door. They just can't fit people in at this point. So that is so encouraging. And that's why the main takeaway from all of this is that we are going to win one way or another, that if we can get this kind of organization going in every locality, every state. I talked a while to Senator Cora Newman, organizers. State's Future is run by Gabby Goldstein, who I'd love to have on some time and talk a little bit about the work they're doing to kind of coordinate state policy. But Cora Newman was a really interesting person. She's from Montana and one of the main organizers of this event. And her grandparents were Holocaust refugees. She serves a native community in Montana. I had not put Montana on the map for resistance for any of this, but just really impressed by the Montana delegation. Right. Yeah, no, Josh Stockinger from Bozeman, Montana

0:21:27 Thomas: Yeah well it's like a lot of people go to states like that to get away from the government you know so I feel like there might be a few people who are like yeah I actually do believe in the small government you know no jackbooted thugs asking people for papers all the other republicans seem to have they lost they lost interest in in that fight yep oh they joined ice

0:21:48 Matt: Tana actually talked about that, about how he's been surrounded for years by conservatives warning about federal overreach and about jackbooted thugs in the streets, you know, and, you know, where are these people now? What are they doing? Yeah, pretty much exactly. To participate in the federal overreach.

0:22:02 Thomas: After after they got pardoned for january 6th they joined ICE yeah pretty much

0:22:06 Matt: Right, right. The Minnesota lawmakers were just so happy to see people coming to support them, you know, in anything that you can do to support Minnesota and the other places that are affected. There were people, quite a few people from Chicago and Illinois as well that had already seen this and were coming to report it. Them and say, we've seen this, we can get through this together. Scott Dibble, Rick Hansen, Fong Haj, a Hmong American leader. Samantha Vey also talked with a lot of passion about her community in the Hmong and what it means to them. And Ana Hamud, a Somali American leader, just every one of these people. I just was so impressed because this is where it gets done. And we've talked about this before. We talked about it with Megan Coleman when she was on the show about how state and local governments are really where the real hope is right now. This is where the energy is, this is where the future is, and that was certainly what I was seeing. I also talked for a minute to Wong Tran of Georgia. He represents the northern part of Atlanta and he was actually, he's a representative of the Hyundai plant land. Remember that all those Korean workers that were detained and deported a few months ago? It was actually

0:23:08 Thomas: Oh yeah yeah yeah well I'm surprised once it came out that he kicked a car, that everybody

0:23:10 Matt: One of the largest raids under Trump and they'd actually worked out a special deal with the Korean government to get them back basically within the weekend. That was very unusual, but sort of talking about the effect on the economy and the hits they took there. That was another theme throughout the hearing and through the conversations I had was all these small businesses that are just not able to operate because people are not coming out and because their workers are afraid to show up. You've got owners and managers basically having to run restaurants. You have got stores that just can't keep shifts going. This is the heart of Minneapolis' economy in this county and just the long-term effects of this occupation and just across the board just how destructive it all is how bad for everybody it is um and and so many different representatives who said that previously they might have considered themselves to be moderates or otherwise just kind of doing the regular job of being representative who have now stepped up and and really become organizers and you know I just I know I've said it before already but I just can't emphasize enough what this looks like and how impressive it is to see people going beyond just knocking on doors and voting and getting out and organizing and making sure that people just have food, that they have rides, that they feel safe from ICE, that they know that a group will show up when ICE is at their door. You know, you heard what Aaron McQuaid was saying about how they're going door to door now. And I can tell you that that's something we've been talking about as kind of the next escalation, as the next thing. Because typically ICE does do list-based enforcement. And they are still. They claim they're doing it. They're going back to it in Minneapolis. We'll see. But they took this radical departure from list-based enforcement in places like Chicago and LA and Minneapolis. And they did what we'd been afraid they were going to do. And they just started grabbing anybody who didn't look white, thanks to Rick Cavanaugh. So that is something to look out for. That is not how they have usually done things. I can promise you that. And that's one thing that really needs to be curtailed. Speaking of that, I

0:25:00 Matt: Want to talk a little bit about some of the ideas that were coming up here and some of the things that the people are doing. But I should tell you very quickly, I did visit at both the the Preddy and the Renee Good memorials and I was deeply touched um really just incredible to see people standing out in sub-zero temperatures uh got some audio from the Preddy memorial I might share with you yeah right right he's a car abuser yeah I know that the the signs

0:25:21 Thomas: Everybody wasn't just like, oh, never mind. Can't kick a car.

0:25:28 Matt: And tributes and photos and poems and I just I was so moved by the whole thing and again only five days later and you know in this place where I'd seen this video near this donut shop and just to be standing there on the sacred ground and to see there's this giant banner that just says any righteous person would have done the same. And it really, really hit me.

0:25:45 Matt: This sign, I think I sent you guys, that just says, we're underreacting. And I thought that was, that's a theme that's really stayed with me.

0:25:52 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I think we've been underreacting for 10 years. 10 years we've be underreacting. I think those of us who, you know, listen to this show have been trying. But even, you know, even, it's just hard. It's hard to capture the flood the zone with shit thing just works. It just absolutely works. There's too much and we are always underreacting.

0:26:12 Matt: Yeah, and I knew, unfortunately, that it was going to have to come to this kind of thing where it would affect white U.S. citizens. And, you know, obviously these are horrible, tragic losses, but we also, I heard everybody was talking about Silvero Vega Gonzalez, who we talked about before, that ICE killed in the street and lied about. I want to make sure to keep his name alive as well. Um but you know the minneapolis you know it's just they they know what to do because they've been through that entire summer they were that sort of the ground zero for the George Floyd protest obviously just blocks away and you know they got to the point where they're chanting you know say their names and they're saying both of their names I just couldn't do it I was too worked up I was just crying I mean it was just so emotional I'd never been around anything like that I just started wondering if I'm going to be standing at a memorial like this in boston sometime in the next couple of years and what's ahead. And just on top of that, that I'm standing in sub-zero temperatures, my hands are shaking, and these people are, some of them are standing around without hats or hoods on. I don't know how they're doing it. I don' t know how. I got to say, after spending three days in Minneapolis, I completely understand why people live there. It's a pretty cool place and it's a great community. I don''t understand how they live there, so if anybody wants to share that secret, I didn' t learn that. But they're just thicker skin or something. I guess I'm just, even after, yeah.

0:26:18 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Geez yeah yeah yeah right yeah yeah igloos, I don't know, yeah, something made of ice yeah right yeah that got struck down california or at least uh stayed or something or whatever and enjoined

0:27:33 Matt: Yeah, they know real eyes. They don't want the fake eyes out. Yeah, it's just, yeah, incredible resilience. And I just can't say it enough how impressed I was. So I just want to talk a little bit about what the states are doing to fight back, what they can do. California's doing some of this. Massachusetts is doing some OF this. Certainly Minnesota's going to put some of these things on the table. But the states can start to coordinate. There is also an outstanding effort to coordinate the executive branch of the states with the attorneys general, and that's another topic for another time. I'm going to talk about the legislatures. But, you know, there is this sense of doom that we can't do anything to fight ICE, and That's Just Not True. A lot of this is in the sense of, why not just try prosecuting them and see what happens, right? There's no reason not to. And there's no way to do that. There's a number of reasons not to pass these bills and try them out. So there's the reverse 1983 that we were just talking about that could allow states to sue the federal government to give themselves permission, basically, to do that. There's a number of bills, including in Massachusetts, that would prevent the state or any municipality from entering into the 287G cooperative agreements that allow basically local police to act like ICE agents and to do ICE things. Bills to prevent any law enforcement from operating masked in the state. And that's a little more controversial. We'll see if those hold up. But yeah, yeah, I want to go deeper on all of these.

0:28:48 Thomas: Uh and I I don' t understand that I don''t know if we should go through that sometime because I'm not sure I understand the the decision there I think they said it was because it only required

0:28:58 Matt: But just try it, and maybe your state will take it. I mean, you should be able to restrict how law enforcement behaves in your state, even if it's federal at some point. It's pros and cons or not.

0:29:09 Thomas: Required ICE to do it and not state and local police. And I don't like, why would that even matter? I don' t. Is there some like, is ICE a protected class or something? Yeah, I mean,

0:29:21 Matt: Yeah, I guess there's no reason you couldn't just do it for all law enforcement, though. That should be the way to do it.

0:29:28 Thomas: They should, but it's still, I just don't understand. I do want to know legally like why that would matter. It feels like this going over and above. I thought we really used to care about states' rights. And obviously, you know, the shoe is on the other foot a lot of times with that, but when it comes to these incursions, when the left is doing something, it's because the federal government wants to give people in states who are discriminated against more rights when the rights version is just actual invasions by federal forces. And I don't understand why a state wouldn't be able to say, no, thank you on the masks. Weird. Anyway. Yeah. Jeez. Huh? What?

0:30:03 Matt: Yeah. Yeah, no. I want to get out and go deep on that another time, as well as the warrant thing. That's something I want talk about probably next time. But, you know, there are a number of states now that are proposing bills that require, and this should not be required because there's already a Fourth Amendment. It already applies in every state. But requiring warrants to go into somebody's house. I wouldn't think you'd need to pass a state bill for that but that's something they want to make sure they can do. And we'll talk next time about ICE's logic and or lack of logic, their legal justification for thinking they can bust down people's doors without a warrant and remove them if they have a deportation order. But you know, just one place that states can fight back. There's one particularly interesting thing from New York and Delaware that I never would have thought of because there is a massive tax exemption on jet fuel. Never would have though of this. But New York gives $170 million in tax exemptions on jet fuel every year. And so the Safe Air Act, and Delaware has proposed something similar, would deny any

0:30:53 Thomas: What? Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:56 Matt: Airline that contracts with ICE because the thing they call ICE Air is basically just like a bunch of small contractors that are flying on behalf of ICE, right? So if you can deny them those tax exemptions, that makes flying a lot more expensive if they do any business with ICE. And I think that's a great choke point. It's one of those obvious things once you hear about it that I never would have thought of because I don't think about these tax logistics. But all of these things in all these different directions, and plus just the sharing of ideas because all of these people are leaders in their communities and all of these people are connected to so many different interests and community groups. And just having everybody sit down and listen to each other and understand each other and just the encouragement. Certainly that I took from this, I know that Megan took, that everybody there, everybody was just so encouraged by one another. And I just wanted to sort of bring this from Minneapolis because it really warmed my heart. It made me feel a lot better. Honestly, as good as anything that I've seen

0:31:49 Thomas: Yeah. Wow. Yeah, no, that's amazing.

0:31:51 Matt: Or talked about or done this year, just to go be in the presence of these people that are so earnestly making a difference and trying to stop this thing that we all know is coming.

0:32:01 Thomas: That sounds like it was really inspirational. I wish I could have been there. It sounds too cold, but apart from that, yeah.

0:32:06 Matt: Yes, way too cold. Yeah, no, I just, these are, do what you can to support your state and local lawmakers who are really trying, the ones who aren't just phoning it in, the ones Who aren't Just running year after year. I mean, obviously some of these people are incumbents, but the people aren't just benefiting from being incumbents. And there are so many people like Megan and so many of the people I've met from around the country who are really, really putting the work in.

0:32:20 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, God, no. Yeah?

0:32:25 Matt: And these people don't get paid that much. They certainly don't, don't get paid enough to justify the hours they're putting in.

0:32:30 Thomas: Yeah, and probably all the death threats and crap they get now. I am really understanding and wanting to beat the shit out of our party to get it to actually take this seriously, and we should. But the time to do that will be in primaries. It just will, because when you look at these lawmakers who you're talking about, who are so inspirational, they can't do anything if they don't have a majority. And oftentimes that majority will need to consist of also people you don't like.

0:32:51 Matt: That's right. Yeah, for sure.

0:32:55 Thomas: And that is just how it goes. I would, if we could have the greatest, most incredible lawmaker in the world who's in the minority and can do nothing, or we could actually vote Democrats in in enough numbers to make something happen. It's just it's just the way it is. If you want to battle it out, and I do, the primaries are the time to do that. I really hope, I have a huge list of Democrats that I hope get primaried. But after that, it's them or the fascists, and that's an easy choice.

0:33:22 Matt: And there's also no reason not to support it. As I said, I hadn't really thought about this, but supporting your, as much as you can, the Democrats in red states, the people who are really trying to push things forward, trying to stand up and make a difference. Because there is, when I'm talking about states trying to make a difference, on the other side of things, you've got state legislatures in places like Kentucky and Tennessee that are trying to force the states to cooperate with ICE on the exact opposite and doing other things to make sure that they have free reign as much as they can. So there's certainly things they can do to stop the worst of this.

0:33:49 Thomas: And we need to be running everywhere too. In a time like this, an environment like this where it's looking like a wave election, I just really hope like even those red states where you think it's like not likely to pick anything up, like it's, we will. So it's worth it.

0:34:07 Matt: And even if they can control one house.

0:34:07 Thomas: And that means people need to vote there.

0:34:09 Matt: That's right. That's great. That's fair. Yeah, no. And somebody like Justin Pearson in Tennessee, you might remember, he had a social media moment when he was expelled from the legislature a couple of years ago. He was there, just incredible speaker, great presence, you know, just young people like that, especially to support the next generation and get this gerontocracy out as one of our constant themes here in the show. So that was another thing. It was just the collective age was, I mean, there were people of all ages, but there were quite a few young people and people younger than me that were doing so much great work. So, that was also super encouraging. Yeah. Yeah,

0:34:35 Thomas: We'll take a break here. And then when we come back, we're going to talk about, uh, we're going to get the other point of view, you know, let's get both sides here. Talk about pro-ICE, some, some truly to bring the vapid response — it's Vapid Response Wednesday. We're going to respond to something vapid. All right, Matt, how was this found? This is spectator.com. Lionel Shriver, not familiar.

0:35:05 Matt: Yeah, Lionel Shriver. Despite the name, it's actually a woman, Margaret Ann Shriver, and she wrote a novel called We Need to Talk About Kevin, 21 years ago. That's about it. She has written about 17 novels, but yeah, she's become a conservative commentator, and as you can see, she has just learned about some immigration law that she wants to share with us.

0:35:15 Thomas: What? Yeah.

0:35:24 Matt: So I thought this would be fun. Three hours.

0:35:26 Thomas: Let's see how this holds up. After three hours of parsing American case law, for once I share, okay, already a bad start. Or find a lawyer, you know. For once I shared Donald Trump's exasperation. See many a naive, okay. Is that it? Yeah. Including yours truly three hours ago would have thought the Democrats sanctuary cities unconstitutional. A sanctuary city instructs its local police force to cease all cooperation with federal immigration agents.

0:35:33 Matt: Yep. Yeah. Naive, yeah.

0:35:55 Thomas: Is that technically true? To cease all cooperation?

0:35:59 Matt: Yeah, I mean, all active cooperation.

0:36:00 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, okay. The Constitution's Supremacy Clause dictates that federal law overrules local law, just as rock crushes scissors in the hand game. The hand game?

0:36:12 Matt: No. No. I didn't even catch that. Sounds a little dirty. Yeah. Or you could spend more than three

0:36:14 Thomas: Hey, let's play a round of hand game for ya. Hand game ya for it? That's okay. Okay. For the sub-jurisdictions to offer refuge from big meanie federal immigrations and customs enforcement, the aptly cold-hearted-sounding ICE should not legally be possible. Yeah. Or you could just go find yourself. That's my response. Do you have a, yeah, I've spent three seconds reading your stupid article and my response is go find yourself. But Matt, fortunately we have Matt who's more learned to provide a better response. Yeah. Yeah, that's almost, and the way you describe it there is

0:36:38 Matt: Hours learning about immigration law. Yeah, I mean, literally, the supremacy clause means that the federal government does immigration enforcement and the state and local governments do not. That's what it means. But she's saying that somehow it means that they get to dictate, literally dictate. That's not how it works. She's saying it just shouldn't be possible. Yeah right. We don't have

0:37:05 Thomas: Almost sounds like what sanctuary cities are. Like, yeah, you're handling the immigration enforcement. We're not doing that for you, right? I mean, it kind of is that. Yeah? Right.

0:37:14 Matt: Have the budget for this. We don't have the people for it. That's your job. Any more than we enforce the IRS law, the stuff the IRS does, or anything more than they do in environmental law, right? That's just not how it works. So she's off the bat. This is a self-proclaimed conservative who's not understanding basic principles of states' rights. It's such a weird analogy. It is.

0:37:24 Thomas: That's a good point. It's possible the workaround is the 10th Amendment's anti-commandeering doctrine, which prevents the feds from directly telling local and state law enforcement what to do. While state and local police may not actively interfere with ICE, they can throw a wrench into operations through sheer passivity. After all, when you simply watch someone drown, you haven't really done anything. Okay, yeah. As to turn over foreign criminals for deportation, the police officer may constitutionally respond like Herman Melville's Bartleby the Scrivener. I would prefer not to. God, this is so fucking... Yeah, you brought up a great analogy. Just like like if the IRS said, hey, police officer, can you do this audit for us? They'd be like, no, I don't do audits. I don't, what? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's so funny. This is such a,

0:38:04 Matt: It's very bad. Right. And the way she's talking about the anti-commandeering doctrine as some sort of a loophole, I don't think that Antonin Scalia would appreciate that, the guy who came up with it or most recently enforced it yes yes right like that Arizona state professor

0:38:31 Thomas: Again, it's such an affirmative action for conservatives. Like someone, this is who's left to write these think pieces. Someone who doesn't know, admittedly in the first sentence has no idea what they're talking about. Hey, I've just accepted a lot of money to write horrible fascist opinions. I'm just coming in here fresh. Here's my take.

0:38:52 Matt: Whose only qualifications is writing a book about what we can learn from the death of jesus or whatever right that guy was great uh yeah and they're not deporting criminal aliens for what

0:38:57 Thomas: Oh boy. Yet local law enforcement refusing to cooperate with ICE isn't in the interest of a polity's own citizens. Deporting criminal aliens makes residents safer. It certainly does not. It absolutely does not in any way by any numbers, make it safer. Not only because the criminal aliens on average are safer than citizens, but also because of the murders you send to do it. Good point. And many of them citizens

0:39:26 Matt: It's worth I don't like to play that game but uh we are we've we've never seen so many people and mass, vast majority of people without records, certainly the vast majority of people with records, no serious and driving without a license uh so you know yeah absolutely

0:39:38 Thomas: That they're going in and getting, maybe not deporting fully. Sometimes they are. They have deported citizens, right? That's happened. But they're certainly detaining a lot of citizens for sure. Releasing prisoners, oh my God, releasing prisoners into the general population makes tracking them down more dangerous for ICE agents, who are then more likely to nab collateral damage immigrants swept up in the operation, but with no criminal record. What? Wow. No. I mean, this is just the party line. This is just Bovino. Well, Bovino is more

0:39:44 Matt: Yeah yeah oh yeah that always happens yeah she's not following what's happening in minneapolis she does not know what is actually happening she has no idea have you heard the guy exactly yeah

0:40:16 Thomas: Like, yes, we're allowed to murder. It's the other guy who gave this line. One of the great great injustices of our time is Bovino being such a racist, fascist piece of shit that sending in what's Hohman, everyone's like, oh, thank God, Hohmann, a calming presence. You're like, what are you talking about? That is like sending Darth Vader instead of the emperor or vice versa. I don't even know which of that it is. It's the same guy, but slightly less outwardly murdery. That's like, that's about it. And his party, his line is absolutely just like that. That's the only reason we're having to go anywhere else is because they won't let us go in the courthouses and grab the criminals there. And it's like that's not true. There's no chance that's true. It isn't true. That was happening. And then the New York Times, meanwhile, when they interview him has to be like, oh, yeah, no, good point. Yeah, great. Yeah. A reputation as a sanctuary draws inordinate numbers of illegal immigrants eager for shelter from arrest, thereby overburdening local social services. I feel like that's kind of got the causality the other way, maybe, but sure. Well, it's also could go the other

0:40:44 Matt: Exactly yeah a lot of sanctuary cities are just nice places to live uh and I don't think there's a lot evidence that people are seeking out you know what their policies are but sure yeah yeah

0:41:35 Thomas: Way in that border states or states like California, where a lot of immigrants end up, they might see what happens and how bad it is when ICE comes in here and does their thing. And then And then they're like, wow, we should protect these people who live with us, right?

0:41:49 Matt: Yeah, no doubt. Sure. Not a tussle.

0:41:49 Thomas: I mean, that could be it too. What's especially rich in the feds versus the state's tussle over who controls immigration? No, no, that's not, that'S nothing. That'S not it. The states recognize that, yeah, there's no tussles. No tusslE. The states recognized that the fed's control immigration. That's exactly the point. They're doing it. You do it, not us. You can't make the police do your job. And I don't, there's no one even like on the lefty left who's like, well, actually the states control immigration, right?

0:42:18 Matt: Yeah. Well, we want more of that, please.

0:42:18 Thomas: I mean, am I crazy? I've never heard of that. Joe Biden's administration sent federal border patrol agents to remove razor wire from the banks of the Rio Grande and floating barriers from the river. Both had been placed by the Texas National Guard in Operation Lone Star, a state initiative to frustrate. Oh my God. So the example you're talking about is when insanely fascist Republican states want to go get in on the fun and like do immigration stuff. And that's your example. That's. Yeah. In other words, this is. Oh, my God. In Other Words, Biden's federal government is so good. In Others Words, by the federal government reserved to itself alone the right to not enforce federal immigration law. Wrap your head around that. Yeah, no, that's done.

0:42:22 Matt: Something the Supreme Court was just fine with stopping because the states can't do that. Okay. Right. Yeah, you do.

0:43:11 Thomas: Done. I've wrapped my head around it. For one, that's not, you can't just, I can't, I can't go do a policeman's job. Like it's not the state police can't go do an immigration officer job. You can't just be like, I'm doing your job now here. I'll help you out. And then be like what, but this is kind of what you're supposed to do. So you should just let me do it. Someone who's not supposed to be doing it. Secondly, it's actually true that if you have the authority, you're the only one who can not use that authority. That's actually true. If I'm a prosecutor, I have the authority and the ability to exercise discretion and not go after someone for something stupid. If Thomas Smith's citizen lives in that city, I can't be like, oh, well, I'm going to not prosecute that guy for you. That doesn't make any sense. You do have to have the ability, the power to be able to do that. God, stupid on every level.

0:44:06 Matt: And that razor wire was killing people. I mean, Texas can't just put machine gun nests and moats full of alligators on the border. That's just not right.

0:44:14 Thomas: Ridiculous. Ridiculous. Inconsistent exercise of the supremacy clause isn't new. How would you know? Now you're going to give me a lesson? Yeah, I've been for nearly three hours. For years, multiple states have decriminalized cannabis in direct violation of federal law. The Drug

0:44:16 Matt: You just learned about it. It's not that's not the same thing but no yes it literally does it's thousands of years old

0:44:33 Thomas: Enforcement Administration has turned a blind eye. The precedent for sanctuary status is unfortunate. Is that a good description of that? No. The very word sanctuary serves as propaganda for the open borders crowd. The churchy association evokes a Christian free... Yeah, it comes from that. It is literally that. It's not like a marketing campaign. Yeah. God, maybe you should know something for more than

0:45:00 Matt: Like it goes back to like original hebrew law like it's incredible not in the spectator

0:45:09 Thomas: Three hours before you write a whole thing about it that's published on spectator.com. That's just my, yeah. A sanctuary city conjures visions of innocents fleeing brutal predators and cowering in a house of God. Well, you know, it's not entirely inaccurate. While courageous clergy promised to defend them, the tag smacks of righteousness, casting the law of the land as cruel and illegitimate. Yeah, man, kinda. Unbelievable. Stupid. Which brings us inevitably

0:45:13 Matt: Yeah the sanctuary movement in the 80s I just want to point out was exactly what she's describing and that's now seen as a righteous movement of churches protecting salvadoran and guatemalan refugees that were coming up that were being denied asylum because our system decided they just shouldn't have asylum after creating the wars that brought them up here right it it everything she's saying is completely true and they hate that yes before pretty yeah yeah

0:45:52 Thomas: To Renée Good, whose very last name, by coincidence, captures the spirit of recent anti-ICE protests, one of which cost her life. Like many compatriots last weekend, I watched multiple videos of the incident in Minneapolis. After blocking the road to ICE agents, Ms. Good was ordered to get out of

0:46:10 Matt: Oh yeah now let me demonstrate it's terrible that I saw that we all saw literally neutral

0:46:18 Thomas: Her SUV she was told to get the hell away maybe hitting an agent with her front bumper maybe not here let me correct that I've I've looked more than three hours into that actually believe it or not I'm I'm practically a phd compared to what the fuck you are with this article she wasn't blocking ice she had waved them through they could have gotten through another car indeed did just go through another ice vehicle just went because that was fine and then one asshole who wanted to do a murder confronted her and and agents told her different things one agent was was telling her to get out of there. Go, get out, go, leave. Another said, get outta the car. It was conflicting. She didn't hit the guy at all. He put his hand down on her hood with his phone and everyone decided that if you hear a bumpy thing in a dark video, well, that means she must've hit him. It was the weirdest thing is when that video came out and then everyone's like, oh, this changes everything. No, like if I just put my phone on a car and maybe a little bit rough because I'm startled or whatever, it's gonna sound like a lot because that's the very thing, the microphone that you're recording with. Matt can tell you something about that. If you bump the actual mic that causes the sound, it's going to sound like hell, but that doesn't mean that she hit him. And then she got shot. Oh my God. I shouldn't have stopped there. She may be hitting an agent with her front bumper or maybe not. And I don't know. What? This is the dumbest shit I've ever read. Wow, this is a doozy. A precise sequence of events that was over in seconds. Yeah, so because it was fast, it doesn't matter who shot who. Like, it Doesn't matter what came first. It doesn't

0:47:48 Matt: Neutral and evil we'll never know I could have shot myself no idea lazy it's just lazy

0:47:59 Thomas: Matter if you're in danger. If you know, if you shoot someone fast enough, it's not murder, because like, it's a precise sequence of events. If you walk in the door and I just shoot you, it's over in a second. How can we tell who did what? You know, it is so fast. It is a precise sequence of event. Yeah, the door opened, bang. I am neutral on that, you know. I'm neutral. That is stupid. Even if lethal force was technically justified, it was not. The homicide is a political black eye and will only make the agency's deportation program harder. You do not want to inflame such a movement with martyrs. For a taste of, I don't know who she's talking about there, which movement, the fascist movement or us, I guess us, for a taste of the current anti-ICE gestalt, check out the Philadelphia Sheriff's post-Good press conference in which she smeared its agents as made up fake wannabe law enforcement. Yeah. Hey, maybe you should read for more than three hours to find out why that's true and threatened to arrest any such agents entering her city. You don't want this smoke. See glossary under civil war. What? What? Oh, come on. Shut up. God. These jackoffs. Pseudo-intellectual. See glossary under civil war. What? God, you're so smart. Even efforts to punish sanctuary cities by withholding federal funds have been strictly curtailed by the courts nevertheless republicans introduced a slew of bills last year targeting the same bête noire no bailout for sanctuary cities stop dangerous sanctuary cities do not fund sanctuary cities blah blah even clearly even for our taciturn lawmakers, locales claiming to be impervious or even inimical to American immigration law are infuriating. God, did someone's 13-year-old get a hold of a dictionary? Jesus, so stupid. Clearly for even our taciturn lawmakers. Locales claiming to

0:49:50 Matt: A lot of big words in here she's been doing it for years yeah yep it's the end of the rule book

0:49:59 Thomas: To be impervious or even inimical to American immigration law are infuriating. Jesus Christ. How can you write with your head in your own ass? How would you even see the keyboard through your own asshole? Jesus. Unbelievable. And just looking at the function of that paragraph too is like, see, it's so bad that even the fascists are upset about it. Like, yeah, no, that's their thing. They've been doing that. That's nothing. I'm afraid U.S. immigration law has been violated with impunity for so long that even politically moderate Americans don't believe their country has the right to kick anyone out. No one said that. Sanctuary cities have been litigated and a barrage of Trump administration lawsuits on the matter are pending. Meanwhile, a blizzard of presidential executive orders aimed at sanctuary jurisdiction have been titled with the usual subtlety, protecting the American people against invasion, ending taxpayer subsidization, blah, blah, who cares? To little avail in the likes of New York and California. Unenforced laws aren't laws. They're merely notions or phantasms. Moreover, rounding it, well, I don't know. They are laws when you enforce them, not when you don't. Again, if the speed limit is 55 and a single person goes 56 and isn't pulled over, I guess there's no law. I guess there's no speed limit because it's not enforced. That's just a phantasm, that 55. It's a phantasms, I say.

0:51:28 Matt: Coming out hard for enforcing all laws all of the time.

0:51:29 Thomas: Stupid.

0:51:31 Matt: Do the best countries do that?

0:51:32 Thomas: Yeah.

0:51:33 Matt: Places you want to live.

0:51:35 Thomas: Moreover, rounding up folks and making them go home is overtly inhospitable. It doesn't seem nice. Yeah, I'm trying. Oh, okay. I just made sure I read that right. Okay. It is overtly inhospitable. Yeah. Okay. It doesn't seem nice, but there's the but, I guess. Many a law that Americans want enforced doesn't prioritize niceness. Locking rapists in small rooms isn't nice either. Oh, okay. So anything that we could do to like the worst people in society, that's also not nice. So therefore we can do it to families, hardworking people, people who just have never done anything wrong in their lives, but don't have the papers. Astounding. Yep.

0:52:12 Matt: Prison isn't great either. Nobody's really defending prison here.

0:52:20 Thomas: Yep. We're almost through this. That's so stupid. But you'll, yet you'll see, okay, let's see. Let's get back to, yeah. Locking rapists in small rooms isn't nice either, yet you'll not see social movements mobilized to object that this generates a climate of fear for violent sex offenders. By contrast, activists often cite the fact that enforcement of U.S. immigration law creates fearfulness in immigrant enclaves as a reason enough for ICE to call it quits. Oh boy. Oh man. Man, the there's there's just they're not the same, man. You can't just make these comparisons. But like to the extent your stupid analogy even makes sense and it doesn't. But if I try to go with it, I guess I would say that it is likely true that rapists aren't going to call 9-1-1 for minor thing. You know what I mean? Like they're like if in your in your stupid world you're creating where there's like a serial killer, you know, they probably also wouldn't call the authorities when something were. So like, yeah, it kind of, in your stupid analogy, it's still true, but we're not talking about sex offenders or rapists or murderers. We're talking about people. And we want people to be able to utilize public services and call 911 if there's an emergency and et cetera, et cetera. And that is a thing that happens. It's just a terrible argument.

0:53:41 Thomas: Final paragraph. The culture of sanctuary and democratic politics has convinced people such as Renee Good that thwarting ICE is doing God's work. Americans broadly support secure borders, but they're consistently uncomfortable with the nitty gritty of serious immigration enforcement.

0:53:56 Matt: The nitty gritty of just mass brutality in the streets.

0:53:56 Thomas: Enforcement. Yeah, yeah. Sure, these raids aren't pretty. They're not meant to be. Internationally, videos of ICE sweeps advertise that Biden's the more-the-merrier era is over. That said, Renee Good clearly didn't deserve to die and was hardly a domestic terrorist. You saved that for your second to last sentence, by the way. Second to last sentence, that said, Renee Good clearly didn't didn't deserve to die and was hardly a domestic terrorist as the secretary of homeland security absurdly asserts but her ilk's interference in ice operations only increases the likelihood that immigrants and protesters like will get hurt wow second to last sentence you're like and by the way she shouldn't have been murdered and our government is lying to us about her being a domestic terrorist that's just a quick aside before I hey oh second last thing before I get it out of here. It is true. The secretary of Homeland Security is calling her a domestic terrorist. And that's absurd. How does that not register more for you, Lionel Shriver? How's that not a bigger deal? How's it not like thing number one? Wow. Our government is getting up on camera and calling people who were murdered domestic terrorists and saying they deserved it. That seems like an emergency to me. Second to last sentence. We got through it, Matt, broadly speaking, I'm sure you have thoughts.

0:54:17 Matt: Oh, great. What a concession. Yeah. Yeah, and this is the best they got in the face of obvious murder in the street from ICE. And this is what Minneapolis is pushing back against. And I think anybody who just refers to mass enforcement as like the nitty gritty of how it's supposed to work is just either hopefully ignorant or just loves fascism or both, maybe both.

0:55:40 Matt: But, you know, I don't know who these people are, but I got to say that there are many, many, many more of us who have a conscience and see what's actually going on. And a lot of them live in Minneapolis. And I'm very proud to have been there and to have had the chance to meet them.

0:55:52 Thomas: Yeah, I am really happy to have heard about your trip. That sounds amazing. That is so cool. Thanks for telling us. Boy, the time flew by. And I am glad we battled the internet connection. Hopefully, that came through. And hopefully, Friday, by the way. We are still doing Rapid Response Friday. Matt is dedicated.

0:56:07 Matt: You got it.

0:56:07 Thomas: We will see everyone for that. Thanks, Matt, for taking us through that. Thanks to the people of Minneapolis for hosting Matt and all that. Because that was awesome. And really inspirational. So, thanks so much. Thank you.