Lively v. Baldoni 53 - As Melissa Nathan Leaves the Police Station, Her Limp Disappears...

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:25 Thomas: Gavalin, Gavalinos, y Gavalistas, yo soy Tomas. And that over there is Lydia. How you doing?

0:00:33 Lydia: Bueno. I'm good.

0:00:35 Thomas: I was code switching for, yeah.

0:00:37 Lydia: Thank you so much. Yes. We're a multilingual podcast. We might be. We might be no. From rural California. Yeah.

0:00:41 Thomas: This is, I think we're canceled already. I don't know. Yeah. My mom's a Spanish teacher. Does that count for anything? Yeah, exactly. Authentic white Spanish teacher, you mean Espan...

0:00:54 Lydia: Yeah, but she did live in España for some some time. Now we're canceled.

0:01:01 Thomas: That's how they say it. That's how the white Spanish teachers say it too, because that is how you say it, but it does sound like a hate crime when I say

0:01:09 Lydia: Yeah, it does. It does. Anyway, I'm doing well. Thank you.

0:01:10 Thomas: It. Well, I'm calling the crisis PR firm again, that's how I'm doing. I keep getting cancelled.

0:01:17 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Thankfully, I mean, we have a lot of names in crisis PR that we're aware of now. So if we want to make some calls to some nefarious folks, we know exactly who to ping. Yeah exactly. Exactly.

0:01:25 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, we probably have their numbers from bad redactions too. They're so bad at it. Gosh, that's in... oh yeah, there's gonna be a really bad redaction mistake in this episode, excited for that. But, but I just have one question for you. Do you have your scrutin glasses on? Darn tootin.

0:01:40 Lydia: Yes, I am ready to screw it. I am so ready to screwed it up.

0:01:45 Thomas: Yeah, because we're about to get to some inscrutable things. There's some weird stuff in here. You might want to follow along in the complaint, but I assume that only like 0 .0 % of people, just 0 .00, just 0%. I don't know why they even bothered putting a point or a zero.

0:01:56 Lydia: And like point zero. Yeah. Just literally nobody. Yeah, and like you guys have heard us complain about how blurry some of these messages are. This goes beyond that.

0:02:06 Thomas: Just 0 .01 % of the people are going to do that. Oh man, yeah, yeah.

0:02:14 Lydia: This goes beyond just blurriness and compression and all of that stuff. Like, it is challenging, this round of texts.

0:02:20 Thomas: But man, I am, I can't wait. So let's get into it. Let's take our break. Which you can avoid at patreon .com slash gavel pod, where you can be in the future and not in the past. You can be already listening to all this stuff. You're already done. You're ready done with the case. You already know who won the case that's how good it is. They already. Yep.

0:02:33 Lydia: Yeah, don't be 2000 and late. Wow. Dang.

0:02:39 Thomas: They already heard the whole sandwich trial there in the future. Not really. I don't want to false advertising. We're still working on that. We will get another episode of the sandwich trial out very soon. And you know, who will have it first.

0:02:49 Lydia: I thought you meant the trial of this. Oh, okay. Good.

0:02:52 Thomas: I met, I did, you know who will happen first is the patrons over at patreon.com a slash a gavel a pod. It's good. Yeah, that's, that's probably for the best. All right, well, we'll take our break and we'll get to it. So

0:02:58 Lydia: And the link is in the show notes, so that way you don't try and type in all the extra vowels that Thomas just gave you.

0:03:17 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:03:17 Thomas: Checking into the exhibits There's a lot of Stephanie Jones-able stuff that we've kind of already done, and it's just, you know, in date order, that's happening around August 8th and that kind of thing. We've got that thing where it's the contradictory thing where Jones in their telling is both not doing anything but also also inserting herself into everything somehow at the same time. It's stupid. It's the thing where she left word for somebody to get this fixed. And then they say, like, don't contact anybody. And she's like, oh, I didn't. I just left word. Then we get like one additional sentence that I swear we didn't see to the part where, remember when Jamie was doing that made up bullshit that was like someone at Sony is saying someone named Stephanie Jones is talking trash.

They leave out that part and they just get the response from Steph Jones that's cut off and says, and we all know I would never, ever say Blake is to blame, which I think is probably just because of the truce, I'm guessing. Then we get that exchange where she's like, hey, why don't we call Sony and see if you're lying right now? And he's like no, I don't do that. So we got that. Let's see if there's anything else. Wow, we get a lot of messages here. There might there's bound to be something new, actually. Yeah, OK. I don'T think we've seen these. So let's let's check these out. August 8th, Nathan and Abel are left to deal with the fallout from Jones inserting herself in the situation,

0:03:20 Lydia: Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Mm. My god

0:04:38 Thomas: Which, by the way, was just her saying leaving word, which means just like, hey, can you call me about something? That's it. That's all that means. There's no way that's fallout. There'S nothing. Yeah.

0:04:45 Lydia: Yeah Also, that's Abel's boss, so you know, she's still at Jones Works

0:04:52 Thomas: Yeah, stupid. Stupid. So we've got some new messages that we have not seen between Nathan and Abel, and I, I think

0:05:03 Lydia: About a situation that we did know about, but this is them commenting on

0:05:07 Thomas: Yeah, so this is, this is interesting because to refresh, we've gone over this, but now we got to kind of reset because we're gonna go over some new stuff. Listen to the Jones v Abel stuff if you haven't. It seemed pretty transparently bullshit to me that they were setting up Jones by saying like they need a reason to get rid of Jones, and that that was still confusing to me, and my theory was maybe, and again, it's a maybe, maybe there's something going on between Abel and Jamie Heath, because it doesn't make sense that Jamie Heath would do that big lie that I mentioned.

0:05:40 Thomas: But now we get these texts between Abel and Nathan, and now I'm wondering, maybe they're talking about there was some genuine misperception here. I swear we have not seen these. So Jen Abel says, damn, I wanted to tell you something funny. But Melissa Nathan's on Zoom. She says, I'm calling after Jen Abel says, Steph chimed into that Daily Mail article and then screenshot it and sent to Jamie and Tara and was like, I know her. I will handle and she will kill it. And Jamie told her to stand down because you're handling made me giggle. Is that what he said? Do you say stand down because Melissa's handling? Not really.

0:05:40 Lydia: It No, he said, "I don't want any messaging with anyone," right?

0:06:19 Thomas: Yeah. Well, OK, I guess. So that's Jen knowing the reason he said that, not necessarily saying he said. OK, so it's like Jen saying, you know, how we're handling this secretly essentially, or you're handling the secretly. Jamie told her to stand down, and then Melissa Nathan says, oh god, wait, Jen, she just fucked us up. This is making sense now. And mind you, this is August is August 8th, so I don't believe this is fake. Like, I don't believe this is them, you know, like, this seems genuine, right?

0:06:23 Lydia: Now Right Eighth Yeah, this is supposed to be during the truce, right?

0:06:49 Thomas: Yeah, but then Jen says she didn't respond though, she sent that to me and the team, not the writer, and then Melissa says, no, no, I think she did. And And then we get the blurriest possible fucking screenshot, even though it's the same text thread, it's the same people, but this one is mysteriously so blurry we can barely read it. She says, "No, no, I think she did," meaning I think maybe she did contact the Daily Mail.

0:07:01 Lydia: Yeah

0:07:16 Thomas: Stop why, Jen says. Melissa says, my sister is texting me furious. Why would she be furious? I'm trying to calm her down. Any idea?

0:07:14 Lydia: Mail Hand text on text, asterisks

0:07:30 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it seems like essentially she's texting while on Zoom. OK, we'll call you right after. OK. And then Melissa says, I think and she looks like she put like big quotes or stars there. Asterisks. Yeah, I think she might have, which I hate, called a person at DM. She won't tell you because Leslie then called Sarah and said DM called her and said, Justin Camp are blaming Blake. And I know we haven't said anything to that effect. I think she means to that effect. She might have just fucked us all up here, and Sarah needs to run her story ASAP. Jen says, what, stop. And then Melissa sends, like, shared texts. Why, oh my god, why did, why did what, no, why

0:07:42 Lydia: Maybe. Mm -hmm y -i

0:08:21 Thomas: Something, why has, why has, has Justin's camp, I .e. you, called Daily Mail? WTF are you doing? Oh, okay. So that's, okay, this is interesting. Yeah, there's no way we saw this. Sarah Nathan is texting Melissa Nathan and saying, why are you calling Daily Mail, essentially? And she says, excuse me?

0:08:26 Lydia: -e -u

0:08:43 Thomas: Now we're on Blurry of Blurry. Jesus. Yeah. This is unreadable, but we do get, so after that unreadible exchange, because it's already unreadble and that's a screenshot within the unread able thing, I guess we can kind of see some of this. Leslie, maybe? What's that top? God, it's easy. It's almost easier to read if you zoom out. And it says, you have to understand the context here. Someone is trying to pressure me slash create a narrative. I have not spoken to the Daily Mail. I would never do that without talking to you first. But that's something that Melissa Nathan is sharing that she shared with Sarah Nathan, right?

0:08:41 Lydia: I can't tell Yeah

0:09:17 Thomas: Who would that be? What is the thing at the bottom? Best? Oh, this is interesting. Just stay put and don't worry. All you need to put out publicly is that that the leak did not come from you or me, we heard back from Justin's camp denying leaks. It looks like pass on whatever you need me to put in and I'll put it in, I think. Actually, that's what I see. So that's Sarah Nathan in their own evidence saying, pass on Whatever you need Me to put In and I will put it In, essentially, right?

0:09:47 Thomas: So that is them directly, that is her directly using her sister in the media connections, right, isn't that insane, am I crazy?

0:09:23 Lydia: Yeah Yeah Exactly Yep. No, no

0:09:55 Thomas: That is directly what they are denying doing, right.

0:09:57 Lydia: Yeah, yeah. Oh, and I think we have, I swear we've seen stuff like this because, because Jennifer Able sent back, they sent back

0:10:01 Thomas: We had something like this. Yes.

0:10:04 Lydia: Revisions to It might have been Sarah Nathan also, or maybe it was, um, maybe it's a different reporter. Right.

0:10:09 Thomas: No, you're right that we had something where they like, here's some edits or whatever, but I don't think it was this. I think it was something slightly different than this because I don't remember this. So let's pull back a little bit and get the big picture of what's going on. So that's Sarah Nathan saying, why is someone in your camp calling Daily Mail? Now, is that still consistent? Can we gather that she's saying anything thing? Why was Justin's camp, what, called Daily Mail? Because, is that consistent with Steph Jones just being like calling and saying, hey, talk to me later? Oh

0:10:41 Lydia: That is consistent. But then the next piece about Justin's camp blaming Blake is not consistent. It's the third one. Say we need to put our story. And she said, put your story up. DM has heard back from Justin's Camp blaming Blake. So pass on whatever you need me to put in and I'll put in.

0:10:47 Thomas: Okay, let's see

0:11:01 Lydia: It is in that third screenshot.

0:10:59 Thomas: Oh I see what you're saying. Yeah, so gosh, that's barely there. Say we need to put our story, and she said put your story up, right, right? DM has heard back from Justin's camp blaming Blake. So what we're kind of gathering is Sarah Nathan saying somebody called in from Justin'S camp blaming Blake, which could be Steph Jones, I guess, in fairness. So Steph Jones could be lying about that.

0:11:17 Lydia: Shot, I think It's also interesting because Sarah Nathan doesn't work at the Daily Mail. No, she works at New York Post.

0:11:35 Thomas: Oh, she doesn't. Wait, what? Oh, yeah, you're right.

0:11:37 Lydia: So she has previously worked with Daily Mail, so maybe she's hearing through the grapevine from people that she used to work with or something.

0:11:40 Thomas: Why? Yeah. What the fuck? Oh. I just assume she wait. She didn't. She doesn't work with Daily Mail or she didn't at the time.

0:11:50 Lydia: I don't think so. Um, it says editor at large at New York Post. Yeah, she's been at New York Post for seven years and eight months. She hasn't been at the Daily Mail since 2015, so it just must be that she still has connections there and was talking with somebody, I guess.

0:12:07 Thomas: That makes this even weirder. I'm glad you pointed that out because that makes it even weIRder that Sarah Nathan is telling Melissa Nathan like it's it's one thing if they were working on some sort of story. But now it's like, yeah, so from Sarah's perspective, would it be like they're trying to have some exclusive thing? I don't even understand. So that sounds more like Sarah's just helping with strategy or something, because like, why does Sarah care then that Justin's camp talk to Daily Mail?

0:12:29 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, I, I think it must be that Sarah was promised to get the jump on it or something and was waiting and then Daily Mail got the jump.

0:12:41 Thomas: But I don't know, because there wasn't going to be a jump on Justin's camp blaming Blake. They were never going to say that, right? So what would the jump be on? This sounds more like Sarah's helping her have a cohesive media strategy, you know? Because I can't make sense of that. Okay, so that's very weird. I think I would remember this. I don'T think we've seen this. Then we get, now we're back to the Melissa talking to Jen, because it was Melissa having shared these screenshots and whatever between Melissa and Sarah with Jen. And now she's like she just ruined our strategy in one swift swoop Blake was fucking holding I'm so fucking pissed Jen Jen says I just told Jamie Melissa says yep I saw Leslie message and now the studio is calling Steph Jones SJ I assume she's ruined our whole strategy. I'm fucking furious. I can't do this shit. Is this real? She's now pushed Blake to write more. I am trying to stop it. Oh my fucking god.

0:12:46 Lydia: Right, right, yeah.

0:13:13 Lydia: And Uh

0:13:37 Thomas: I met a loss, we, and it cuts off. Oh

0:13:39 Lydia: It's over on the right. We were perfect.

0:13:41 Thomas: Yeah, I'm at a loss. We were perfect. What's the middle thing then?

0:13:44 Lydia: I don't know. Yeah, it's all out of

0:13:46 Thomas: I can't believe this. Okay, I'm looking at Leslie screenshots. She has direct line to DM, who has told her what SJ has said. I think I need to talk to Leslie so she knows it's me and sort a joint story so she knows it's me. This is my only move I've got next. We had a soft, nice plan that was working. Jen says, "I told Jamie I had the head of Sony call me about this. Can you loop me in with Leslie? Is she on a plane? I

0:14:19 Lydia: Order It continues down on the next page too. Yeah.

0:14:37 Thomas: Can text with her too. We are about to take off. I want her to know it's not me, and we've been honoring this. Is weird, I actually don't know what to make of this. Oh, what's this middle thing, you think? So we have an orphaned thing. There's a message screenshot that doesn't, it's not in order, it doesn't go in anything. It is Jen Able. It says, omg, from Jen, and then call for comment, I let... Oh, so this is the email. I left word. Okay, so this is Steph Jones thing. I left word, blah blah blah, blah, that thing. And then there's, this also looks like a screenshot though. So there's a screenshot of texts, right? Cause that what comes next doesn't fit the formatting of being its own text thing, right.

0:14:51 Lydia: Uh, yeah, yeah, I think so. I think you, I, I think you are right that the cutoff there. Man, this is all so confusing. Yeah.

0:14:57 Thomas: It says also not sure when we are putting this up.

0:15:01 Lydia: There's no way we will do.

0:15:01 Thomas: There is no way we will do a big story with DM. No one even knows we have him. What does we have Him mean?

0:15:09 Lydia: I don't know. Oh, that tag has Justin Baldoni?

0:15:13 Thomas: But I thought there was already that story exposing that. When was that? That was like right away, way, wasn't it?

0:15:17 Lydia: I think, well, this was August 8th. I think that might have been August 13th because she was just retained July 31st. Mm -hmm.

0:15:22 Thomas: Oh Okay She said Stephanie, so maybe Stephanie's involved. She's not. V weird. She said Stephani is a C word. Who would have said that? What? Oh my god. So that's just out of

0:15:34 Lydia: And that probably Sarah Nathan also still?

0:15:36 Thomas: I guess so. That was out of nowhere. We don't know what that is then. It continues from Jen: I want her to know it's not me and we've been honoring this, which, which tied that one to the one above. Melissa says, yes, absolutely, I just want to know that I am not crazy and that you know what happened here in your heart in reality You know, it correct? Well, that's weird. A moment ago they were so sure. "I just want to know that I am not crazy and that you know what happened here in your heart inality. You know it, correct?" And then Jen says, "100%." Melissa says, "I'm horrified. That's the last I will say." Okay, I just texted her, she's on the plane coming back, I'm waiting for her to get back to me. "Let's try and calm the situation all the way down. Once she responds, then I will set a call for us three or or a group chat." My sister said she was so furious. What? Why would she be furious? So I'm like, and then I don't know, whatever that emoji is. You can tell me

0:15:46 Lydia: Right. What?

0:16:27 Lydia: Yeah, it's sweaty. Yeah.

0:16:28 Thomas: Exasperated something. This is still Melissa. Does Jamie see it? She replied more than happy to speak to you. I'm landing in two hours. So that's Leslie, right?

0:16:37 Lydia: Yeah, it must be Leslie because Melissa's not on a plane right now.

0:16:40 Thomas: Jen says, "Exactly. Everyone needs to cool." Well, no, that was Melissa saying that. So is it Melissa saying she'll talk to Leslie or Melissa saying she talked to someone else was the question. Probably Leslie.

0:16:50 Lydia: Yeah, no, it is Leslie.

0:16:52 Thomas: "Exactly, everyone needs to cool down and stop feeling the fire." Melissa: "I need to have a shower and go to my client, but you made the right decision and I hope you know this." "Exactly." Jen: "We're all on the same team." Melissa: "And I'm gonna tell her exactly that." Jen: "I know now more than ever." Melissa: "Horrified."

0:17:07 Lydia: This is so weird. Sorry, these all just read so weird to me.

0:17:12 Thomas: Yeah, I don't get it.

0:17:13 Lydia: The whole, the, I just want to know that I'm not crazy and that you know what happened here in your heart in reality. You know it, correct? Yeah. I know now more than ever. It just feels off.

0:17:29 Thomas: It sounds like they got something wrong and then are trying to, yeah, but still is what it sounds like to me. Yeah. So then let's try to get through these last ones. Checking into the hotel, that seems later, and then on with her, Leslie. What? Oh, her, Lesley, and somebody maybe. She's saying. Then she says, Melissa says, "I'm going to ask Leslie if we can do a group text and update her on the requests incoming that we were not, we are not weighing in on." Jen says she needs to help kill that NYP story. She planted. Yeah.

0:17:39 Lydia: Her, Leslie. Yeah. Yeah, maybe.

0:17:53 Lydia: Which is weird because New York Post, that's where Sarah Nathan works and they just blame Daily Mail. They were saying that Leslie talked to Daily Mail. Well, I guess Stephanie talked to Daily Mail and then, according to them, Leslie talkedto Daily Mail after.

0:18:05 Thomas: What the fuck? Does she planted mean Leslie, or does does that mean Steph? Okay.

0:18:11 Lydia: I think it means Leslie.

0:18:13 Thomas: And then Melissa says to that, of course, it's the only thing that could blow up and it's my sister. What? Then she links like part of a story and it says only mentioned. So as in the only mention was like the reviews are in. So it's basically not mentioning the drama. And Jen says, thank God. What the fuck just happened?

0:18:19 Lydia: But you were working with your sister on the story.

0:18:36 Lydia: I feel like that's our reaction every time we read text messages between Jen Abel and Melissa Nathan.

0:18:39 Thomas: That, yeah, these are, boy, this is weird. I'm going to have to think about this. Maybe we'll come back to it. We're going to go have a think and come back later. All right. So we were a moment ago when we were confused about these texts, we were in the exhibits. Then we thought, well, did they do the thing where they put the same text in the complaint or vice versa and the quality is better? And you'll never guess. Yes. And you know what? I think I know why it's more blurry now. It's because of the redaction.

0:18:47 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Mmm.

0:19:06 Thomas: So, okay. So here's what's funny. In the exhibits, you may recall that we were reading one and it said, I'm trying to calm her down and text as I'm on redacted on Zoom. And we're like, oh, Oh, I think you said, oh, it must be a whoever's another client or something. In the complaint, it's not redacted. It says, my sister is texting me furious. I'm trying to calm her down on text as am on with Drake on Zoom.

0:19:06 Lydia: No.

0:19:28 Lydia: Yeah.

0:19:29 Thomas: So they didn't redact it. That means the reason it's blurry is because someone is grabbing it, putting the redaction over it, and then like re -exporting it or resaving it. It's reducing the quality even more.

0:19:31 Lydia: Yikes. Yeah, I just want to point out, I know this has nothing to do with this lawsuit, but it is where Melissa Nathan and Michael Gottlieb intersect, which is Drake. Because Michael Gottlieb is Drake's lawyer and Melissa Nathan is his PR person so yeah yeah they're on the same team when it comes to Drake who lost his lawsuit but yeah yeah

0:19:56 Thomas: Oh, but that is so funny. So I think, and oh, that is quotes. Quotes. It actually isn't asterisks. I think she might have called a person at DM. She won't tell you because Leslie then called Sarah and said, DM called her. Okay. So Leslie's calling Sarah. Leslie, Blake's PR person is calling Sarah Nathan, who's the sister of Melissa Nathan, who works at, I'm glad you clarified New York post. And it says, Leslie then call Sarah and said, daily mail called her so daily mail call Leslie and said Justin camp are blaming Blake. And I know we haven't said anything

0:20:01 Lydia: Oh yeah New York Post

0:20:32 Thomas: To that fact. She might have just fucked us all up here. That's exactly. Leslie called Sarah and said Daily Mail called her.

0:20:36 Lydia: Why is Leslie calling Sarah apropos of nothing that is really weird

0:20:45 Thomas: So what's interesting is that is like third hand because haven't we seen the Leslie ones or something about the we've seen? Oh, because of James Fistuka or whatever. Right.

0:20:52 Lydia: Yeah we've seen stuff with Leslie yeah yeah

0:20:56 Thomas: I don't think DM called her and said Justin Camper blaming Blake. Right. Like, I don'T I don' t think that happened because that was when they're like, that's That's when they tried to claim that Leslie and Blake were planting stories. And it was clearly just the Daily Mail asking Leslie for a comment on a story they were already working on. And I don't remember that saying that Justin is blaming Blake. I don'T remember that. That may be a possible way to characterize it. Sort of true.

0:21:02 Lydia: I don't remember mm

0:21:24 Thomas: We're trying back the game of telephone here. We're like, maybe Sarah kind of summarized it as that based on what Leslie said. So, yeah, that's the game telephone. Phone. So Leslie was contacted by Daily Mail, which we know. Looking back to those, we have Daily Mail reporter, which what we know is James Fishtuca, right? Have to talk about, this is Thursday, August 8th. Interesting. Yeah, that same day.

0:21:24 Lydia: -hmm right mm -hm yeah that's the date that all this stuff is happening.

0:21:49 Thomas: Have to Talk About Some Stuff That Came In From Reporters, Ree Blake and Her New Movie Drama. Leslie Sloan says, on plane, like what? James, well, it's a lot to text, but it's regarding probs on the set involving her and Justin Baldoni and and fall out over that with Blake being labeled difficult and a power struggle existing. Leslie, that is 100 % untrue, but I don't want to go on record. James, never on record Leslie, your info is totally off.

James, there is clearly something going on because it's cold from three reporters and none of them are me. Huh. I'm just the only one not afraid to reach out to you. Leslie, you have it all wrong. Your reporters are so wrong. James, okay, I'm just being straight up with you because that is how I roll always. I'm coming to you because I actually like Blake and don't want Daily Mail to fuck with her. Sure. This is him just lying his ass off.

One of them said that Blake and Ryan insisted on rewriting the movie and another that she got very opinionated over directorial issues. Do you want to ring me when you land? And I'll tell them that they need to hold off on anything for a few because her rep is unavailable and need to at least get no comment. No one knows that we speak, just that you would read emails from me and respond. Leslie, yes, please. As this info is all wrong. She didn't require script runs.

Nothing to do with this. She produced film and got a cut. WTF is going on. The whole cast doesn't like Justin. Nothing to do with Blake. Like I said, so James, like I said though, the reporting is that there were issues between her and Justin as well as others and that Justin found it difficult to work with her. Hmm. Okay. So maybe that's where she's getting.

One of these reporters is close with Steph Jones because they used to always get Tom Brady, Giselle shit, it and Steph reps him, I believe. I told them she is awful and not to rely on anything she says. Leslie: I'm telling you she's a liar. They are panicking as the whole cast hates him. I promise she is lying. This will not look good for your site. The entire cast, I will have go on record. James: can you give me anything at all and what the issue is then if it's not her and it's him? Leslie: no, I'm on a plane. This needs to hold, and then that's the end of this. So that's kind of of again, it's like third hand, third hand, third hand, you know, like fifth hand. That's James saying the reporting is that there are issues and Justin found it difficult to work with her. One of these reporters is known to be close with Steph Jones, so that's not proof, that's just him saying known to be close.

0:24:22 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:24:22 Thomas: Okay, so this is now the second time we've had to kind of sit with this, you know, for a bit because we got interrupted by our kids returning home and they're coming back to this with I have gone over, I have dotted my I's and crossed my t's trying to make, to scroot this. There is so much going on here. And I think it's really key. Stepping back. I'm repeating myself, but I think It's Necessary because it's so confusing. Like I've listened back a bunch and like it's going to be confusing to people to hear all those messages. And I just want to step back big picture to put this in context. We are at roughly around like August 8th, right? It's like that's kind of when we're talking.

0:24:38 Lydia: Yeah. Right.

0:25:00 Thomas: And the premiere is when?

0:25:00 Lydia: August 9th.

0:25:03 Thomas: Okay, so we're like right there. When does Jen Abel leave Jonesworks? So just situating that in time. So they're still working with Jonesworks, like Jonesworks is still working for Baldoni and Wayfarer.

0:25:09 Lydia: August 21st, I think it was.

0:25:19 Thomas: And what this interaction has been about is the idea that Steph Jones told the Daily Mail. We already read these texts, but again, I'm just trying to situate this because it is confusing. The idea is that Steph zones called Daily Mail and told them that Justin's camp blames Blake. The reason this is important is it's both important to this case and it's also really important to the Steph Jones, Jones v. Abel stuff. And I am sitting here trying to figure out, not legally speaking, I genuinely just wonder as a human, my first impression was they were very, very artificially making that up. Like when we went through the Steph Jones stuff, when we saw the lie that obvious Jamie lie where he's like, Sony says somebody named Steph Jones, which I've mentioned a million times. That's an obvious lie. Like there's no fucking way that's not a lie.

0:25:19 Lydia: Right, right,

0:26:10 Thomas: It seemed to me that that seemed very intentional and a way to just kind of get rid of Steph Jones. If Abel put in her notice at like the end of July or whatever, and it's clear that Heath and probably Baldoni like Abel and want to just work with her. Like it's pretty clear at a certain point. And so maybe they're just on lookout for something they can pin on her.

Because I guess what I'm saying is this seems to be like an inciting incident of, oh, no, Steph Jones is like doing something wrong. And what surprises me is that unless they are just acting, which I can't imagine that the level of forethought of like, let's get something in our personal texts ahead of time to justify that. I can'T imagine it's that. It seems like this is a kind of a spontaneous thing that they they actually believe, which which is this idea that Steph Jones told Daily Mail that Justin Camp blames Blake. And so I've been trying to reconcile all that. Like, what? It's just weird, you know? We've got so much weird information in these messages. Just to review, going back. So Jen messages Melissa, wanted to tell you something funny. Steph chimed into that Daily Mail article and then screenshot it and sent to Jamie. And Tara was like, I know her. I will handle and she will kill it.

And Jamie told her to stand down because your handling made me giggle. I think what's happened here is we get from context that Melissa is quote -unquote handling the Daily Mail thing. Now, we've wondered why Sarah Nathan, according to Melissa, is angry and is texting or is like texting me furious, as it says. Why don't I just read through the thing real quick, just to remind everybody. Oh my God, wait, Jen, she just fucked us up. This is making sense now. And then Jen, this is why I think Jen is genuinely not in on this.

0:26:25 Lydia: Right. Right.

0:27:51 Lydia: She's still at the Verizon store, man.

0:27:52 Thomas: She didn't respond. Yeah, she's not even close to that. She didn'T respond, though. She said that to me and the team, not the writer. She's thinking like, oh, Melissa misunderstood because they're supposed to be not talking to anybody, or at least very least Steph's supposed to be non -talking to anybody. And then Melissa says, no, no. I think she did. Stop. Why? Jen says, Melissa says my sister is texting me furious. And we were trying to puzzle that out. We're like, well, why, how does that make sense? Cause the sister Sarah Nathan works for New York post, like you pointed out. So why even just taking this at face value? Why is potentially Eventually, Steph Jones telling someone something at Daily Mail gonna make Sarah Nathan be texting her furiously.

0:28:00 Lydia: Yeah, earnestly. Yeah yeah yeah.

0:28:20 Lydia: Yeah. Mm.

0:28:32 Thomas: Okay, so keeping that in mind. And then she's on with Drake on Zoom. Call you after. She says, I think she might have called a person at DM she won't tell you. Because Leslie then called Sarah and said DM called her and said Justin Camp are blaming Blake. And I know we haven't said anything to that fact. She might have just fucked us all up here. And Sarah needs to run her story ASAP, and that's when we get the ones that are the screenshots of the screenshots, and so it's so fucking blurry. We're really trying hard, but it does seem to, and I don't think Melissa would have, like, faked this. That'd be pretty crazy. Does genuinely seem to be Sarah Nathan asking Melissa, why has Justin's camp IEU called Daily Mail? WTF are you doing?

0:28:36 Lydia: -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. -hm.

0:29:19 Thomas: And then it seems like Melissa, again, in the screenshot of the screenshot, this is Melissa talking to Sarah, her sister, that she's then like forwarding to Jen. So that's why it's like a screenshot of a screenshot. Excuse me. No, I didn't, or something like that. No, something, you know, denying it Then it seems like we get, what email did you say this is?

0:29:34 Lydia: Yeah, yeah. This is the email that kind of sparked it all. This is the Daily Mail email, call for comment, where Steph Jones responds and says, left word for so and so, she's been very nice and passed. So we'll get this

0:29:49 Thomas: Yeah, but in the screenshot we don't have that.

0:29:51 Lydia: Fixed. No, no, we just have It just says to Jennifer Abel from, we don't know, but August 8th is there, so that date matches, and the paragraphs match as well. The, hi, I'm a reporter for Daily Mail, I'm currently working on a story surrounding the recent rumors, etc., etc.

0:30:04 Thomas: I think, I believe all that because super small, but it seems to match. Melissa forwarded that with a message below it that is unreadable, like all of this. It seems like the only, I feel like I see only, I'm, this only. Okay.

0:30:07 Lydia: Yes. Or the thing, this thing, this, I think it says this. Yeah.

0:30:21 Thomas: It could be this, this only, but I think the the effect of it we can both agree is probably this is essentially all that I have with Daily Mail. I haven't responded is what you think she's going to be saying, right? And of course, because they're so transparent, we can't really get all of the message back, but this one's pretty important too, and we tried to go through, through this before, but just reminding. Man, it's so blurry. My, say we pass, let's

0:30:49 Lydia: Need to pull our story. Yeah.

0:30:52 Thomas: Oh, We, yeah, maybe we need to pull our story.

0:30:55 Lydia: And she said, put your story up blaming

0:30:56 Thomas: And she said put your story up. That's pretty clear. DM has heard back from Justin's camp blaming Blake. So pass on whatever you need me to put in, and I'll put it in. After thinking about this way too much, I think that Sarah was holding a story for Melissa Nathan, and it seems like the way they were holding it, and this is a tactic we saw kind of elsewhere too, was, "We aren't giving a response yet, so therefore you need to hold it until we get a response back from one of the parties." It's, it strikes me as if there's a story that's like got some rumors, but But then neither Justin Baldoni nor Blake Lively are going to comment on it. Then maybe it's like, eh, not worth publishing yet kind of thing. This is this is me speculating, but it seems to fit all the things. And then here's what I think happened. I think James Vituska is just lying.

0:31:03 Lydia: Blake. Yeah. Mm.

0:31:16 Lydia: -hmm, out of

0:31:56 Thomas: And I think that launches this avalanche of telephone where James. And now this is the one conspiracy theory that I think could be maybe true. And I didn't get into this. I'm just realizing. Melissa and Leslie arrive at a truce at 1010 a .m. and then at 1020 -ish a .am, 1021 or something. That's when James Vitushka is texting out of nowhere, Leslie. Nope.

0:32:19 Lydia: Nowhere. Slung.

0:32:22 Thomas: Leslie Sloan. And that was to go back, have to talk about some stuff that came in from reporters, Ree Blake and her new movie drama. On plane like what? Says Leslie. James. Well, Well, it's a lot to text, but it's regarding probs on the set involving her and Justin Baldoni and fallout over that with Blake being labeled difficult and a power struggle existing. Leslie says that is 100 % untrue, but I don't. Yeah, that is 1000 % untrue, but I don't want to go on record. James says never on record leslie says your info is totally off.

0:32:45 Lydia: 1000

0:32:54 Thomas: James says there's clearly something going on because it's cold from three reporters and none of them are me, and and I take that to mean it's like unprompted because cold. Cold, you know, it sounds like a cold as in like they're going cold or something, or they're not. But that doesn't make sense. I think from context, it's got to be like there must be something going on because it's like cold as in like cold calls almost, or like it's out of note. It's unprompted from three reporters and none of them are me. So like he's trying to say there's definitely something here. Yeah.

0:32:54 Lydia: A bunch of other people are getting this story, not just

0:33:21 Thomas: And then he says, I'm just the only one not afraid to reach out to you, LOL. Leslie says, you have it all wrong. Your reporters are so wrong. Your reporters. Your reporters is so wrong, so maybe it is just Daily Mail reporter.

0:33:33 Thomas: I'd also could be bullshit. But anyway, James says, OK, I'm just being straight up with you because that's how I roll. Always. I'm coming to you because I actually like Blake and don't want Daily Mail to fuck with her. It's just lying. One of them said that Blake and Ryan insisted on rewriting the movie and another that she got very opinionated over directorial issues.

0:33:33 Lydia: Me. Yeah, I just, I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah.

0:33:53 Lydia: Yeah.

0:33:53 Thomas: Do you want to ring me when you land? And I'll tell them that they need to hold off on anything for a few, because her rep is unavailable, and need to at least get no comment. No one knows that we speak, just that you would read emails from me and respond. Leslie, yes please, as this info is all wrong. She didn't require script runs, nothing to do with this. She produced the film and got a cut. WTF is going on? The whole cast doesn't like Justin, nothing to do with Blake. James, like I said though, the reporting is that there were issues between her and Justin as well as others, and that Justin found it difficult to work with her. One of these reporters known is close with Steph Jones. Wait, oh shit, that, wait a minute, that is. Okay, that is fucking crazy. Why is James mentioning that?

0:33:59 Lydia: So it's got to be just Daily Mail reporters. Yeah.

0:34:37 Lydia: Yeah. He's like seeding it.

0:34:39 Thomas: James is saying one of these reporters of the alleged invisible reporters that he's getting this from is close with Steph Jones because they used to always get Tom Brady shit and Steph reps him, I believe. That is so fucking bullshitty to me. I told them she is awful and not to rely on anything she says. That's a weird thing for James to say. Okay, I'm actually getting to the point where I think Melissa did do that. I think Melissa told James to do this.

0:35:08 Thomas: I like I'm that I'm just realizing how out of nowhere it is. He doesn't need to mention that.

0:34:53 Lydia: Mm hmm. Mm hmm, no. And it's just for credibility or something saying like, well, it's his PR person.

0:35:15 Thomas: I guess she did say your info is wrong or this info is wrong.

0:35:22 Thomas: You know what I'm thinking back to remember in the Jones v. Abel thing where Jones lawyers like in the narrative, it makes that claim that like this lie served two purposes. For one, it did this and for another did this. And I was like, that seems far -fetched. It seems like really specific and conspiratorial. And then by the end, I was like, oh, actually, I don't know. Maybe that's right. I think that's this. I don'T remember exactly what that was, but it was something like this. I think this is all intentional. I actually think it's just Melissa and James because I don' t. I think the Jen Abel messages would be too good to be bullshit. So it is fucking weird for James Fetushka to mention Steph Jones. Like, I mean, maybe you could say that's a hell of a coincidence. And maybe if you want to believe that Steph Jones did this, I guess it doesn't make any fucking sense.

And as you noted in one of the recordings we probably deleted, Steph Jones just seems very credible when she's like, "No, I didn't say that. Hold on, let's talk to Sony. What? Who is saying that? It's Sony?" Like, it's very, it just comes across as like, what the fuck are you talking about? And also, I, the part, yeah, sorry if I'm repeating myself too much, but we've done like a bunch of these, I'm trying to get it right and I forget what I've deleted, but the part where she's like, she names names, like, "No, so and so at Sony, I don't believe so and so would say that," like she, She

0:35:24 Lydia: Mm hmm mm hmm mm.

0:36:17 Lydia: Let me clear this up. Yeah. Yeah.

0:36:35 Lydia: Yeah.

0:36:35 Thomas: Actually knows who the people and is like, I don't believe they'd say that. Like, it's so specific. Steph Jones is so specific and Jamie is so bullshitty coming across as like, oh, they said someone named Steph Jones. Whatever.

0:36:50 Lydia: It's so crazy.

0:36:50 Thomas: And then he's like, don't try to talk to him. And I know I made this point a million times. So, like, I think we all agree that Steph Jones seems way more credible in that situation. And also forget everything else. Steph Jones has nothing to gain by telling a reporter, we blame Blake. Justin blames Blake. Like there's no, like that doesn't gain her anything.

0:37:11 Thomas: But here's the weird thing. God, this is why I'm telling you my brain is running like just trying to mine Bitcoin in my brain. Like it's just spinning because there's a lot of variables, but I'm like coalescing it all together. The only thing that I don't like about my theory that I haven't even gotten all out yet is that it just feels a little sloppy in a way that, that, okay, so let's step back. James says one of those reporters known close to Steph Jones, blah blah. Then I think we have to just believe that Leslie called Sarah Nathan. I think that would be a crazy thing for Melissa to make up. I think, although I, under my theory, she's capable of making up things, but maybe Leslie is like, okay, okay, run through my Rolodex.

I need to see if Baldoni's side is breaking this truce that we just did. Think about from Leslie Sloan's perspective. She's not privy to all of this. I'm sure she has a bit of a BS detector for James, but I don't, I'm just guessing. Like he just seems bullshitty to me. So I'm imagining. On one theory, James could be pure bullshitting. Like that was my first theory that he's just doing what I imagine this kind of reporter does. Oh yeah, well, hold on. I can't tell you who, too,

0:37:18 Lydia: Mm hmm yeah. Yeah.

0:38:23 Thomas: But they say there were problems with Blake. Like that's just classic shit stirring. Like it's just like being a high school drama asshole. Yeah.

0:38:23 Lydia: Yeah. Try and fish for comment. Yeah.

0:38:32 Thomas: Trying to like stir shit up, start a fight. Cause that's their whole fucking business model Is I got a quote from so-and-so celebrity saying such and such thing, blah, blah. It's just a bullshit, terrible business that I can't imagine being. So my first thought was like, he's just bullshitting. But then when I just on the 50th reading, when I was reading to you and I saw he is the one who says one of these reporters is known close with Steph Jones. That's just so fucking specific. I don't know.

0:38:37 Lydia: Yep.

0:38:58 Lydia: No, I think you're right, because if you read down in the narrative a little bit further, so he's saying, you know, Steph Jones, Steph reps him, I believe, right? So he's saying, well, that's Justin's PR person. So if we have a question about Justin Baldoni and we want to talk to his PR people, that is who we're going to reach out to. But then in paragraph 191, oh,

0:39:15 Thomas: Well, when he says Steph reps him, I believe he's talking about Tom Brady.

0:39:19 Lydia: I see. Yeah. Okay. But then the following morning, he reaches out to Melissa Nathan by email, apparently.

0:39:26 Thomas: Oh, he does? Wait, where is this? Hold on.

0:39:27 Lydia: Yeah. Paragraph 191. So less than 24 hours later, he sends this long professional email requesting comment from Melissa Nathan. And then that prompts Melissa to screenshot that and send it to Leslie and say, Morning, I just got this. I'm going to have to speak to him, but I'm just going to tell him nothing.

0:39:47 Thomas: Wait, how do we know that's from what?

0:39:49 Lydia: We know it's from James. It says, Unbeknownst to Nathan, this was the same reporter with whom Sloan had been communicating the day prior. Nathan confirmed that she played no part in the story and told Sloan, "I'm gonna have to talk to him." I said, "I'm not going to talk with him." I said, "I'm going to speak with him." But I'm forehand if you'd prefer. Sloan deliberately omitted the fact that she had spoken with a reporter just 24 hours prior, stating, "Let me know how it goes." So it feels like a setup, and that was like the final piece of the setup, right? To kind of see, oh, is Leslie going to admit to me that she talked to him?

0:39:53 Thomas: Oh, okay. Okay.

0:40:06 Thomas: It just seems like she's baiting that so much. Yeah. It feels like a setup.

0:40:18 Thomas: Yeah. And Melissa probably wants Leslie to break the truce so that they can break the truth. But I wonder if the complication... So this is the part I still can't quite get, because I think, again, James either bullshitting, or man, I think the Steph Jones thing is so specific that I think maybe James is coordinating with Melissa. So then what happens is Leslie calls Sarah and says, "Hey, what's going on? I hear from Daily Mail." And keep in mind how Leslie would have taken this and presented it to Sarah. She might have said, "Hey, Daily Mail got from Justin's side that they're blaming Justin." And then this is a literal game of telephone. Then Sarah, that explains the message from Sarah to Melissa being like, "Wait, what, what?"

Because from Sarah's point of view, for her, she can't be in on that unless we're really in crazy town where these are like totally faking texts and stuff. But I don't think so. I think Sarah's not necessarily in onthat part of it. And Sarah says, why has Justin's camp, IEU, called Daily Mail? And if the idea is that that's because of Leslie calling Sarah and saying,

0:40:24 Lydia: Yes, yes. Mm. -hmm. Yeah. Mm.

0:41:22 Thomas: DM, again, quoting the text message, DM called her and said, Justin, camp are blaming Blake. Then what happens is because Sarah works for a different publication for the New York Post, and they were potentially holding something because they couldn't get a comment from Justin's camp. But then they hear, wait a minute, Daily Mail has a comment From Justin's Camp. But it's all bullshit.

0:41:38 Lydia: -hm mm -him. Yeah.

0:41:44 Thomas: It's all a game of telephone bullshit that's from James. That kind of fits that puzzle piece where it's like, that's why it causes a problem for Sarah. Because before it just didn't make any sense that it's causing a problem for Sarah. But if it's like, wait, I thought we had a plan where essentially I'm hanging on to this for however, who knows how long. I don't know if it would be that long, but like, at least it seems like that was the understanding because the fragments we can get from that message are such and such as say, we need to pull our story. And she said, put your story up. DM has heard back from Justin's camp, blaming Blake. And then Sarah says, so pass on whatever you need me to put in. I'll put in as in, well, I have to put this story up now, like ahead of schedule.

0:41:46 Lydia: Yeah, yeah.

0:42:24 Lydia: I got scooped.

0:42:24 Thomas: So give me your response or whatever. Give me what, what you actually want from Justin's camp. I think that's what happened. Okay.

0:42:28 Lydia: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, no, I agree. I do think that's what happened.

0:42:34 Thomas: So the holes in the theory or not the holes, but the things that make it complicated is like, man, the Steph Jones thing. What could Melissa have said to James? Melissa could have said, Hey, just kind of say like you heard it from a reporter that's connected to Steph Jones. And James wouldn't have to be like all the way in on this plan. This is conspiratorial, but this is actually the literal job they do, is lying to reporters. Like, that's literally the job, is just finding ways to lie to reporters and manipulate them as best they can while the reporters are trying to manipulate them the whole time. Like, they're just, it's just a world of lies that I would kill myself if I was in. So who knows what level of coordination that is, but the Steph Jones thing is super fucking specific. That seems like intentional. That seems like Melissa wanted to get that in there. But then here's another thing that's getting me. It's a little too coincidental in certain ways. Here's what else I read. I read Melissa as being pretty bullshit in the Melissa Jen Abel thing.

0:42:49 Lydia: Yeah.

0:43:03 Lydia: To benefit their client. Yeah. Mm -hmm.

0:43:28 Lydia: Mm

0:43:28 Thomas: I think we both do, because when she's saying she just ruined our strategy in one swift swoop, blank was fucking holding. I bet that means Sarah was fucking holding or maybe New York Post could because it looks short. I'm so fucking pissed, Jen. Yep. I saw Leslie message and now studio is calling SJ. She ruined our whole strategy. I'm fucking furious. I can't do this shit. Is this real? She's now pushed blank to write more. I'm trying to stop it. Oh my fucking god, I'm lost, blah blah. But then the part that reads is so bullshit that we pointed out was, wait, okay, I'm looking at Leslie's screenshots, she has direct line to DM who has told her what SJ has said, but we know that's not really even true. We know that that's like

0:43:39 Lydia: -mm. Mm -hm. Right. That's what James told Leslie.

0:44:10 Thomas: Well, but James said a reporter is linked to Steph Jones, like it's kind of a loose thing.

0:44:14 Lydia: Right. Well, that's what I mean. It's, yeah, exactly. It's a random statement in the middle of a text.

0:44:20 Thomas: But Melissa is very keen to almost launder that into like being a legit thing. So Melissa's telling Jen, "She has direct line to DM who has told her what SJ has said. I think I need to talk to Leslie so she knows it's me and sort of joint story. This is my only move. We got next, blah blah. We had a nice soft plan that was working." Jen says, "I told Jamie I had the head of Sony call me about this. Can you loop now?" That's I had the head of Sony call me about this. That's interesting.

0:44:51 Lydia: Yeah, because I think they're like, Jen, stop. I think Sony knows that Jennifer Abel is probably doing this.

0:44:57 Thomas: Well, right now Jen's not doing it.

0:44:59 Lydia: Well, I think that they actually suspect that it's Jen. What? Where was that?

0:45:02 Thomas: Or maybe, yeah, that was in this Jones v. Abel stuff where it was like at first they called somebody and then it was Steph or vice versa. Gosh, what was that? Yeah, so maybe Steph convinced them this is not me, and I think Steph has a decent enough reputation in the business that my perception is that if she tells that of Sony, "I didn't do that," especially, especially because it doesn't make any fucking sense. Like, that's the, I think that's the one flaw in this plan, is that Melissa is looking for, I thinks it's just Melissa, because I think it would just be too good of acting for Jen to be doing this, which is crazy. Now I'm realizing this. I think its just Melissa. And we know Melissa and Stephanie Steph Jones have that rivalry thing. They have that thing where they hate each other.

0:45:10 Lydia: Yeah. Mm -huh. Yeah. Yep.

0:45:43 Thomas: And this feels like almost Melissa manipulating Jen because maybe Melissa feels like she can't outright or it's more protection if somebody else else bashes Stephanie Jones because it's going to be looked at as too obvious of a motive for her. Maybe possibly that's just another thought. But I think the problem is if Steph Jones just directly denies it to Sony is like, why would I say that? Why would I, why Would I say they blame Justin blames Blake? That doesn't make any sense. Like, I think she's got enough of a reputation as the head of a like successful, large PR firm with

0:45:58 Lydia: Mm hmm.

0:46:16 Lydia: Yeah. With with the sizable clients.

0:46:16 Thomas: With lots of experience. Yeah, to be like, I'm not gonna.. this is like amateur shit. And I think as a Sony executive, you'd be like yeah, that is kind kind of weak. That doesn't really fit. There's nothing to gain for, again, there's nothing for Steph Jones to gain by that at all. That's like a minor, minor tip. The kind of thing that if it was real, it'd be like some random person who wanted 15 seconds of fame or something. It's nothing.

0:46:21 Lydia: Yeah, mm hmm. Yeah. And in the Jones v. Abel lawsuit, didn't we also see that she told Tara, hey, I'll show you. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I'll tell you all my my entire phone log. I'll say everything.

0:46:46 Thomas: Oh, here's my phone records. Yeah. We have that in this too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:46:59 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:46:59 Thomas: So going back to the Jen Melissa exchange, Jen says, I told Jamie, I had this head of Sony call tell me about this, which is, yeah, I think that might be because Steph said, no, I didn't do this or something. Jen says, can you loop me in with Leslie? Is she on a plane? I can text with her too. We are about to take off. I want her to know it's not me. And we have been honoring this. Then the part that feels fake as shit is yes, absolutely. From Melissa. Yes, absolutely, I just want to know that I am not crazy and that you know what happened here in your heart in reality.

0:47:03 Lydia: Mm.

0:47:30 Lydia: Yeah I remember talking about this. This is crazy.

0:47:32 Thomas: Yeah, because it was earlier in the episode, but for us, it was like a while ago. You know, it, correct, that is a, that, that's Melissa selling this lie.

0:47:34 Lydia: Yeah yeah yeah. That is so incredibly manipulative. And I think if you take a second and you're like, and you really look at those words, that does not make sense to send in this moment. This is someone who is trying to like almost rewire your experience of the situation and tell you what to think. It is disturbing, honestly, whenever I read that text.

0:47:54 Thomas: Yeah.

0:48:06 Thomas: Jen said 100, so she's going along, and Jen's probably inclined to just go along with this too, like her, her motives are going to be more or less to go along WITH THIS, but I think the weakness is it's stupid for Jen to do that, it doesn't make sense, and also James is such a fucking liar that I think obvious thing that anyone objective would think is like, well, he was probably just full of shit, like, we don't actually have a quote from anybody.

There's no actual quote anywhere that is, here's so -and -so from Justin's camp saying, we blame Blake. Like there's, that doesn't exist. So like, it just is rumor anyway. And then Melissa says, I'm horrified. That's the last I will say. It's not the last she would say. Okay. I just texted her. She's on the plane coming back. I'm waiting for her to get back to me. Let's try to calm the situation all the way down.

Once she responds, then I will set a call for us three or a group chat. My sister said she is so furious. So I'm like, and then whatever, whatever, sweaty emoji, why, why would the sister be that mad, her saying that she's that mad, like, she is so fierce, I think that's further selling it, like, ah, this is the mess that Steph has made, you know, it's just more emotional kind of hijacking or emotional, like, um, playing on emotions to kind of sell the lie a little

0:49:15 Thomas: More. And then the next thing, does Jamie see it?

0:49:04 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah, I know. Exactly. I think if you ask anyone who has been in a really, really toxic relationship and they've done work getting out of it, they would look at this and they would spot those things and they'd be like, that's problematic, that's diplomatic, this is like calculated from from this perspective in this perspective, these are not things that are normal, these types of

0:49:43 Thomas: Yeah. Here's another question I have, and we've gone through this before, but it's trying to put it in this new context and trying to make sure it all fits. Does Jamie see it? She replied, more than happy to speak to you, I'm laying two hours, Jen says Exactly, everyone needs to cool down, stop feeding the fire now. This is interesting, Melissa says, I need to have a shower and go to my client, but you made the right decision and I hope you know this. What is the decision?

0:49:57 Lydia: Texts.

0:50:08 Lydia: Yeah, I don't know. To leave Jones Works. I

0:50:14 Thomas: I Actually, I don't know what that is, maybe, but I feel like that's so, just to continue on to try to give more context, you madethe right decision I I hope you know this exactly. And then Jen says, we're all on the same team. Melissa says, and I'm going to tell her exactly that. Jen says I know now more than ever.

0:50:16 Lydia: Mean

0:50:30 Thomas: Melissa says horrified.

0:50:29 Lydia: I Know, so bizarre.

0:50:34 Thomas: It could be about leaving. You made the right decision. I hope, you know, this, it just feels more immediate though. You know?

0:50:35 Lydia: Bizarre, well, but Then, then this next piece that, and I'm gonna tell her exactly that, that's gotta be about Leslie, right?

0:50:41 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Cause she's saying we're on the team. We're all in the same time. I'm gonna tell her. So she's going to say, I'm on the right team. She's going tell her, yeah. She's gonna tell him like, Hey, we are all on the same. It's just this loose cannon Steph Jones. The only thing is like if it's just about the leaving Jones works I just that decision is already made and I just think that like I don't know did Melissa is there a part of the conversation we don't have and Melissa got Jen to maybe it was something about getting Jen to convince Jamie about it like maybe that's the I think maybe it's something we're missing a message on or a call on that is Melissa getting Jen Jen, to convince Jamie or something, or to do something more to set Jamie against Steph Jones or like create a wedge there or something. I don't know. Like that, that's what would fit in this missing puzzle piece is something like that. You made the right decision.

0:50:48 Lydia: Oh I see, I see, oh, I think we had that exact same conversation.

0:51:26 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, I don't

0:51:37 Thomas: I know there's a lot, but it's like, it's so fucking insane. And these are such weird, crazy lies. I just can't run my mind around it.

0:51:46 Thomas: One more thing I'm thinking about. Jen says, Steph chimed into that Daily Mail article and then screenshot it and sent it to Jamie and Tara and was like, I know her, I will handle and she will kill it, and Jamie told her to stand down because you're handling, there's something that feels fake or artificial about that being the thing that makes Melissa Nathan realize, you know, she has this realization Oh my god, wait, Jen, she just fucked us up, this is making sense Now really just from, oh hey, here's what happened, Steph screenshot it, was like, hey, I'll handle it it.

But then Jamie told her to stand down. You know what I mean? Like it seems like another kind of bit of evidence that Melissa is lying here is just like that feels so artificial to react that way to that because it doesn't really like tell her anything new, really. I mean, I guess you would have to believe that like the timing of it is that then she's like, wait a minute, it must have been Steph who talked to someone else at Daily Mail like in secret that she's not telling you. I think she quote, I think She might have called a person at DM. She won't

0:52:08 Lydia: Know Yeah, yeah.

0:52:48 Lydia: Right.

0:52:48 Thomas: Tell you because Because in this exchange, Melissa already knows that Leslie called Sarah and said DM called her. So, like, she would already have the Steph Jones information, I think. I guess we could believe later when she says, okay, now I see.

0:52:57 Lydia: Yeah. That's a good point.

0:53:03 Thomas: And I think that's why she says that. Okay, and I'm looking at Leslie's screenshots. She has direct line to DM who told her what SJ has said. I mean, maybe that all unfolded in exactly that precise order. But that also comes across like she already knew it was Steph Jones because she set that rumor, but was looking for a reason to go off on that. You know, does that make sense?

0:53:23 Lydia: Well, yeah, no, it does, and it's funny because I happen to watch this video today about someone talking about co-parenting with an unhealthy partner. And these tactics that I'm seeing here, honestly, are the things that I was seeing in that video where it's like, and the pressurization of things, right?

0:53:34 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. It is kind of that gaslighting stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

0:53:43 Lydia: That something is urgent and a crisis. And that's why I said that earlier. It's exactly what I'm saying Melissa do to Jennifer Abel here. And it makes me sad, honestly, because, like, you can just see if you take a second, you can see how she's being manipulated and how she'S being abused almost in this way. And she'S not like a perfect character. Don't get me wrong.

0:53:45 Thomas: Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

0:54:05 Thomas: I hope we get to find out more about this because maybe, because, like, Jen and Steph were close. Close, it might really be that Melissa, like, gaslit her out, like, like, manipulated her into leaving that company and doing it horribly and, like, I don't know.

0:54:11 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:54:21 Lydia: I don't know.

0:54:21 Thomas: Like, Jen obviously, she has responsibility, like, she's got to be smarter than that, especially with how she handled it, but there's a chance where I want to make very clear, I'm not certain about all this, but I'm, like, it's why I feel like my brain's mining Bitcoin, because it's like trying to keep every bit of data in mind on this particular particular interaction and make it all make sense. I totally agree with what you're saying about the tactics. It's the making it urgent because then you're, you're pressuring someone to like reduce their critical faculties a little bit, you know, so that they can't differentiate as well. And then the thing like, you see it, right? You see it. You know, it's like, it's SO FAKE.

0:54:23 Lydia: Yeah. She'S a grown, grown adult. Yeah. Yeah.

0:54:49 Lydia: Yes. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

0:54:56 Thomas: Do you remember what was the story that we think Melissa actually seeded against Justin to get there to be a crisis? Which one was that?

0:55:03 Lydia: Hmm. God, I don'T remember.

0:55:06 Thomas: It wasn't just the one about that him hiring the crisis PR, was it?

0:55:11 Lydia: I don' t think so.

0:55:12 Thomas: Because Cause they also blame that on Leslie in this next part. And that'd be interesting. Maybe we should try to track that down.

0:55:16 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Something to look into.

0:55:19 Thomas: All right. Well, I know this was probably maddening, but it's just, it's really interesting. Like I just, I think, I Think you're right that I think this is Melissa really in my mind, this is, Melissa coming out as more of a villain than I thought.

0:55:33 Lydia: Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

0:55:33 Thomas: Like I thought Jen was more of the villain, but I think it might be Melissa. Like I, cause especially when that first interaction where she's like made me giggle and then she's Like, Oh my God, she fucked us. And then Jen says, oh, no, she didn't respond, though. She just sent that to me like this. You know, she's not trying to say what she will about Jen. She's trying to clarify there. Like in that moment, she'S trying to SAY, oh no, SHE DIDN'T ACTUALLY, Steph DIDN' ACTUALY CONTACT, you know, I THINK YOU 'VE MISUNDERSTOOD, like SHE JUST RESPONDED, you KNOW? And like, there's SOMETHING ABOUT THAT I DON'T THINK you could MAKE UP, you KNOW, like THAT'S A HARD LIE TO MAKE UP IF SHE WAS SOMEHOW LIKE TRYING TO DO ALL THIS FOR SHOW. I THINK JEN IS GENUINELY NOT IN ON THIS PARTICULAR THING.

0:55:58 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Mm -hm. Yeah Yeah, I agree.

0:56:12 Thomas: I THINK IT'S MELISSA. I think it's all Melissa here. So weird. Okay, this blew my mind. I hope folks could understand. And if that, I'm going to do my best in the edit. So hopefully it comes through. About to probably take me a year. But no, no, I'll get on it. All right. Well, really interesting. I'm still going to be thinking about that. I'm curious to see if anyone has thoughts on this or if they, you know, or if this just broke their brains. I don't know.

0:56:16 Lydia: Yeah Yeah.

0:56:34 Lydia: Maybe someday we'll get the full depo transcript.

0:56:35 Thomas: But yeah, there's, oh, just give me any more. Like, I swear, I only need a little bit more, you know, because this is so contingent. Like, there's so many little contingencies here. Like, if I had anything between Melissa and James, dead to rights, you know, like, or it would, or it would disconfirm. It would be like, oh, I was wrong. Like, if we had anything from Melissa and James, if we had anything from Sarah, if anything from Sarah, you know, like, where we could see, like, how much in on it was she, like, if we could have more about what the story is that Sarah was holding, like, there's a lot more that would tell us about this stuff just any which way, and I just hope we get that somehow. We'll see.

0:56:39 Lydia: Yeah I mean, I think we do know at this point that James and Melissa are friends. Like, that they are close.

0:57:18 Thomas: Yeah, I think there's a real chance that was all a setup like just to close out with the maximalist conspiracy version I guess which I don't even think is that far -fetched Melissa and James coordinate such that they seed the idea that Steph Jones is a problem which Melissa wants which I think Jen Abel wants but now I think it's mainly fucking Melissa I don' know they god you know what I'm remembering now is that message where Melissa is telling Jennifer like yeah you're gonna leave Stone's Works and you're just gonna have all these clients and make so much money you know It's like, oh, he's Melissa. It's fucking Melissa.

0:57:21 Lydia: Yeah Mm -mm. Mm. Mm Mm -mmm. Mm Yep. Yeah.

0:57:51 Thomas: Damn. She's, wow. Anyway, maximalist version, she gets James to see that and she does that, gets James to talk to her to try to induce Leslie to do something to break the truce. It's sort of like the fucking cops pretending to be Antifa, you know, and like throwing a flashbang. It's, like, ah, they broke the truce, you Know, it's, Like, that kind of thing, and I honestly don't think that's that far -fetched. I think that all could very well have happened. Maybe James is bullshitting coincidentally, but I don't, with, with him messaging Steph Jones, I think it's too specific.

0:58:07 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No.

0:58:20 Lydia: Yeah, and I think, like, it's a perfect setup, too, because you have a reporter for a tabloid who is reaching out to PR folks. That's what he would be doing anyway. It's just that now he has inside scoop from Melissa Nathan specifically, the

0:58:31 Thomas: Yeah. And he says, here's another thing. He says three reporters, but then highlights, well, one knows Steph Jones. Like what? You know, like why, why are there three then? The three feels like he just wants her to believe it. I think It's all bullshit.

0:58:41 Lydia: One that knows Steph Jones. Mm -hmm. Mm -huh.

0:58:49 Thomas: So the three is wanting her to Believe it. Oh no, this comes from three reporters that are not me. So I think blah, blah, and then the Steph Jones is what is going back to that being the one. Well, then what was the point of the three? Like if it's the one that has the information, you know what I mean? Like it's just, ah, man, this is a fucking web of lies. I swear to God. Okay. I got to stop, man.

0:59:06 Lydia: We'll keep untangling it. I know we will.

0:59:11 Thomas: Ah, well, thanks for listening. Gavelheads. If you're still gaveling away, if you didn't quit, thanks for listening, I'm just, oh man, my brain's just running on this. That's, this Is so interesting. Anyway, we'll be more on this later.

0:59:43 Thomas: She might have, which I hate. So then that went down as, Hey dude. All right. Yeah, I guess we have to go. I'll try to remember what I was saying.

0:59:50 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. I am so ready to screw.

0:59:59 Thomas: Ah, man. This is the only Fling conference.

1:00:05 Lydia: Yeah. Blackberries. Like, that's what I see.

1:00:07 Thomas: And then, weird. I see this only swimsuit Fling Conference.

1:00:14 Lydia: I see this thing has small blackberries. I don't know that I just, I don' t know. I see, that

1:00:18 Thomas: It's definitely this only. It's certainly this only I'm, I'm a hundred percent on only right. How do you see thing only in thing or not close?

1:00:29 Lydia: Looks like a lowercase t to me, not an o.

1:00:32 Thomas: What? The first letter of the second word there. No, it's definitely an O There's

1:00:34 Lydia: Yeah, yeah. Yeah no, it looks like a T next to an H to me. Well, we're not going to figure this out. We're not going to crack it. We've tried so many times. Okay. All right.

1:00:39 Thomas: No, there's nothing going above The

1:00:48 Lydia: Melissa Nathan, call me.

1:00:49 Thomas: No, you're crazy. Okay, we are going to figure out that you're wrong and it's this. Oh yeah, anyway

1:00:49 Lydia: Let me know. Did I get it wrong or did Thomas?