Let's Go Around the Law Office and Say What We're Thankful For

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Clip: Thank you.

0:00:03 Matt: What is the most challenging thing about being my assistant?

0:00:05 Interviews: You are the male version of my mother. Um, I grew up around very loving very proud filipinos and country is a better place because people like my family members are in it and

0:00:34 Matt: Everybody, it's Matt here, just here by myself to let you know what we're doing this week. We've got a very special Thanksgiving episode. It is the time to give thanks to you and just look around you and remember the people in your life and the things that make everything possible. As the great band Big Star once sang, the friends that make things things so very probable, that's how I've been feeling. That these things become much more probable with everybody around you. We're we're going to be featuring some of the people closest to me today today who make this work happen, who allow me to run a law office and bring you my part of this podcast. Course, I want to start with Thomas and Lydia Smith, who are the producers and owners and just the people behind Opening Arguments. And of course, Thomas very much out in front of Opening Argument, along with Lydia on Wednesdays now. Just such a pleasure to work with them both and really appreciate them as people and as co -creators and producers. And just so so grateful for the opportunities that this show has given me and the people I've gotten to talk to and the amazing things I've just had a reason I get to look at and think about. Thanks to them. I'm going to be looking at the people closer to me now here on the East Coast in immediate vicinity in my law office. So as you know, I do run a three -partner, five -attorney immigration law office in Boston, Massachusetts. And you're going to meet some of those people that make that happen today in this episode. We're just going to do short interviews with some of my favorite characters. You've met Azul already in a previous episode last year. I know a lot of people listen to that. That's well worth going back and listening to. We gave Azul a two parter because she had so much to say and she's such a great character and has such a great character. I'm going to feature some other people that you haven't met yet. Not talk to everybody. We have 18 people on our payroll and as much as I'd love to introduce you to all of them, maybe next Thanksgiving. I don't know, But we have to keep it a little shorter this time. You're going to meet everybody from our high school Haitian Creole speaking intern, Sylvie, who personality and pro already, just walked in the door at 18, ready to do this work. Meet our receptionist on her last day, Rachel, who we wish well. Will meet my assistant, Emily. Meet our working from Brazil, James, who moved down there a few months ago. I missed having him around in person, but always great to catch up with them. And of course, my law partner, my sister in the law, Nicole Miceroni, and maybe some other people along the way. We'll end with a footnote, because we always have to have a footnotes, with my research assistant and former Northeastern student, Olivia Komisinski. Is much more than a foot note for this show. She makes it possible for me to be able to do this by keeping my organized and helping and prepare the background materials, get things together. We'll talk a little bit about the process there in her part of things, but I want to make sure to fully introduce you. You've heard from her as our social media person, but I wanna give you a little footnote here on how we put this stuff together. Just love having Olivia around. It's such a privilege to be able to talk to her and work with her. And she's just a chill hang all around, as I'm sure you'll find. So this is a really fun one. I am so glad for the opportunity to get you and introduce you to all these wonderful people. Thanks again to Thomas and Lydia for just indulging me on this one. It's Thanksgiving. Do it. We'll be right back with our first interview.

0:03:30 Matt: Emily, welcome to Opening Arguments. I'm just going to start right in with an ambush. What is the most challenging thing about being my assistant?

0:03:37 Interviews: Uh, the most challenging thing is that you are the male version of my mother. Um, mean, I've worked with my mom my entire life and worked in her businesses my entire life, literally since I was six, seven years old. Um, you and her have very similar ways of thinking, ways of working. Call them organized tornadoes.

0:04:07 Matt: Mom sounds very cool, I just have to say. She must be pretty great.

0:04:12 Interviews: Is. She's the person I admire most in this world. So say it's a compliment that you and her are the same. I think what makes my job easier is the fact that you're like my mom without actually being my mom. You know, so we have that going for us. But that as well is that my mother is, like I said, an organized tornado. You are also like that. You kind of leave wherever you go.

0:04:26 Matt: Good, good. Let's just turn this into an ad for the office. This is perfect. Let's cut this into a radio ad.

0:04:50 Interviews: But that's why you have me though as your assistant so that I can organize it right behind you

0:04:54 Matt: That's true. That's sure. You're right. You're not wrong. Shout out to everybody who's an assistant for anyone with ADHD. Absolutely. Very much appreciated. You've been with us for about 10 months now, 10 months, I guess. You know, you walked in, as you said, with a lot of previous experience managing businesses, being in charge of people, like taking charge, because your mom runs like three or four businesses up there in

0:05:10 Interviews: Since since February of yes correct in the North Shore area yep

0:05:23 Matt: I really like assistants who can take charge. And you had an interesting background that way. You're also, you grew up speaking Spanish because your family's Puerto Rican. So how's that experience play into working in the immigrant community here at the Immigration Office?

0:05:36 Interviews: Of course it's obviously the most beneficial that I've got going on is the fact that I speak Spanish. That's one of the most important things that we need in an office, in this type of immigration law firm. So it's difficult as a Puerto Rican, though, you know, having technically being an American citizen. I am an American citizen and being born, not technically, I am, being born in the U .S. and working with people who do not have that same experience as me. Sometimes, strangely, I get this weird kind of survivor's guilt of ask me where I'm from and I tell them that I'm from Puerto Rico, immediately they know that, like, I cannot relate to them on an immigration level, whereas there are other people, you right now, one of our other staff members is practicing, studying for her naturalization, you listening to the questions that she's being asked. And I'm like, these are questions that I studied for in sixth grade you

0:05:57 Matt: Technically. Totally.

0:06:36 Interviews: In Massachusetts so like it's humbling humbling experience for sure no

0:06:40 Matt: Were obviously working with the immigrant community before with your mom and in the North Shore, like it's not like this is new new to you. But have you learned in the past year or so about what's going on in this country right now?

0:06:46 Interviews: Definitely not oh man uh I

0:06:53 Matt: Or in the system, I guess?

0:06:55 Interviews: Guess uh that our government is all a lie and that it is not for the people in any kind of capacity um think the rose -colored glasses that I had on in terms of like what the US was or what the u .s. is supposed to be definitely like was lifted when I started working here yes I'm definitely very passionate and once I feel strongly about something, I'm like a dog with a bone I'm not gonna put put it down.

0:07:16 Matt: Yeah, I've seen you radicalize, and you came in pretty radical, but I've see you radicalized even more. After you joined us, I moved across the hall to a little annex here across from the main office. And you said, can I start bringing my dog in? And I love dogs, but I thought, I don't know. That's a little much. You think that'll be disruptive? And then I meet George. Tell me about George, the dog.

0:07:44 Interviews: Is definitely the best thing that could ever happen to anybody who meets him.

0:07:51 Matt: Yes, it's true.

0:07:52 Interviews: He is the sweetest dog. He's eight years old. He is from Puerto Rico. I've had him since he was five months. Here in Massachusetts essentially his entire life and raised in Boston for over half of his life. So he is very much a city boy. He does not appreciate a leash just like me. He likes to be on the loose and wild. People are typically shocked to see him roaming the streets, but if you ever see him, I'm definitely close behind. So,

0:08:23 Matt: And he's incredibly well -behaved. I mean, I was going to say we could ask him to participate here, but he won't say anything. He's so quiet. I never hear him.

0:08:28 Interviews: He is the quietest dog. He is very, very quiet. And he's He's also just one of the most emotionally intelligent creatures I've ever met. He, multiple occasions, like knows exactly when he can go over to a client and comfort them or just like puts his head on their lap. And only think only one person so far has been afraid of dogs that we've had to like put him away. Way. But honestly, if you see George, you could understand how anybody could be afraid of him, of this dog.

0:08:59 Matt: Have to just be terrified of dogs generally. You cannot be afraid of this dog. He's like so sweet.

0:09:03 Interviews: Yes. George is this, yeah, he's technically a mini golden retriever. So he's only like technically 48 pounds. He's a medium sized dog. He is not huge, but he is a very good boy. Very good boy!

0:09:04 Matt: And he's a big guy. What's the breed? He's some kind of Mexican? Mm -hmm. Grew up with terriers, so he's big guy, but no, hadn't really thought about, like you said, sort of the emotional support animal aspect of it when we have clients and we have kids in when we've got people who are upset and yeah

0:09:29 Interviews: My gosh, yeah. With the kids, that is the biggest thing George is obsessed with kids and whenever there are children here immediately I grab the kids and because the parents are having a meeting with the attorney and George will keep them entertained and honestly I feel like it really pays off having him here it streamlines a lot of our visits yes

0:09:47 Matt: Does and for the adults too I mean I think I told you that we had a couple that we'd prepared for this marriage interview it was kind of a stressful one and you know this adult woman turns to me she's like I really wish that dog was here he's so sweet he's made me feel better about this and I thought that was a really nice compliment for george but uh yeah no we're we're very grateful to have him here and I never thought that we could so successfully integrate a dog with nobody noticing but it's been great and of course even better that we get to have you around I really do appreciate you every day so thank you so much and glad to have your here but Rachel, it is the last day that I'll be seeing you in the office. And I just wanted to have you on for a minute to thank you for your service. And it's been quite a year.

0:10:00 Interviews: Oh my gosh yeah he's the best thank you thanks for having me okay

0:10:32 Matt: You've been with us through the entire first year of Trump. How's it been going?

0:10:32 Interviews: Has been. Has been a journey, for sure. Rewarding, but complicated journey, I got to know a lot of different people, different backgrounds, different stories. Helped me during this experience, get through this tough time. I

0:10:55 Matt: Think I told you when you interviewed that this is one of the most important jobs in the office, picking up the phone, staying in touch with our clients, keeping people on top of their cases. But I also know it's a very stressful job. And then I know that it's, It can be a lot to be done with people, especially right now, with everything being so uncertain. Have you felt a lot of that anxiety over the year? It's

0:11:13 Interviews: Have but it's it's a way I can't even blame them for their anxiety um I can'T blame myself either because obviously this is these are times that not a lot of things are making any sense um just have to just keep going keep doing our jobs and be there for those people because they need it the most.

0:11:35 Matt: Course, and you come from an immigrant family yourself, so I'm sure you've been feeling some of this.

0:11:39 Interviews: It's a scary time.

0:11:40 Matt: How's it feeling in your community?

0:11:42 Interviews: Funny I had to join my grandmother at her doctor's appointment because she was too scared to go out by herself. Instead of putting her health at risk, I was like, I'll just go with you. I'll interpret. I let them know. You have your permanent residency card. You're all good to go. Just seeing that That fear, and people that I know personally as well, is just very tough. It's normal for me to see it at work, but at home, you feel it a lot more now.

0:12:11 Matt: That's, I mean, I assume your grandmother's really not getting into trouble, and she doesn't have anything to worry about, but just hearing that she's worried to go to her own medical appointment, that is really, it's hard to hear. But of course, we've been seeing that from all of our clients for a while now, but really especially this year that people are just afraid to leave their homes and afraid to do their regular business because of ice um you feel like you have a just just from picking up the phones and talking to people and calling them back do you feel like a pretty good sense of what it's like out there and how the system's working or not working for people but

0:12:40 Interviews: Absolutely, yeah. I've had to give away bad news. I've been told, like, oh, you got your green card. This is wonderful news. You know there's the hearing the sigh of relief on the other end of the phone is just so rewarding and then there's a cause where you know process they're maybe going to something got denied and they're like oh we have to go through this all over again and very tough because you know know how helpless they may feel at the moment even though we're doing everything that we can to to help them yeah

0:13:08 Matt: You know at the end of the day we're very fortunate to be able to have really really just kind, wonderful people for the most part that we get to represent. I don't think every lawyer gets to say that all the time. You feel some connection with the clients and some sense of, yeah, of course, of course. Yeah, I can tell you're a very empathetic person. What's next? What are you thinking after this experience?

0:13:17 Interviews: For sure sense of empathy in a way yeah after this I'm just gonna work a quick part -time job go back to school uh my associates and then hopefully be able to transfer and go to school for law because I want to you keep making an impact in this field for come back here yeah

0:13:45 Matt: Are you interested in immigration law still? Yeah, all this, we'd be happy to talk to you. Everything you've seen, you'd still want to maybe go to law school and come back and be an immigration lawyer of course of

0:13:49 Interviews: For yes I mean the good outweighs the bad for sure you know there's a lot of bad right now yeah

0:13:59 Matt: It's good to hear um people honestly get the time here and realize this isn't for them and maybe this isn't the right environment or the right kind of work they want to be doing uh you've really been in the middle of it so you've gotten a good sense and we're not going to hold you to it but it's that's good I appreciate other closing thoughts great

0:14:12 Interviews: No I just thank everyone for being so accepting so kind um helping me get a better understanding of everything going on right now um I think it really helps me and my community since I'm able to relay information and help reassure them um know just outside of this office as well yeah

0:14:31 Matt: Yeah no well we really enjoyed having you and we really do appreciate your work here um and you've been so great with everybody so thank you so much rachel all

0:14:35 Interviews: Thank you thank you so much I Matt. So I'm currently in Belo Horizonte, Brazil. I've been here for, what, about four or five months now. Before that, I was living in Boston for the past, for three and a half years before that. And I've been working with Cameron, Mitchell, and Sylvia since 2022, really.

0:14:39 Matt: Right good luck it's Yeah, already almost, I guess, three years. Yeah, we missed you. You and Isabella went down to Brazil.

0:15:07 Interviews: Yeah, no, man, we've missed you too. Yeah, we miss Boston. There's a lot that we miss for sure but it's also beautiful and you know it's uh yeah it's a whole it's another life over here but I'm really grateful to be able to be here right now yeah

0:15:19 Matt: It's also getting into December in Boston, so you're not missing that. How's the weather?

0:15:23 Interviews: No it's only getting hotter here yeah

0:15:24 Matt: Sure. You had some power trouble today? We

0:15:27 Interviews: So uh last night we had a big storm and as a result uh had some wi-fi issues all day uh still hasn't come back but uh you know just got to drive a little bit and then I can find a little coffee shop with some wi-fi so we can make it work

0:15:41 Matt: Appreciate that. So you've been helping with our clients for years. And I got to say, one of the most coveted things an immigration attorney attorney, confidant, and staff is somebody who is perfectly trilingual in English, Spanish, and Portuguese. Absolute triple threat. Did you get to be so good at speaking those languages?

0:16:02 Interviews: For me to have these skills, but it hasn't been easy to get there. I was born into a family where my dad is from Europe, so he spent a lot of time in Switzerland. His dad is from Germany, so they spoke a lot languages. His side of the family, he has three siblings, and they all speak various languages. Languages so when I was growing up I was always kind of around these languages around French around German even around Russian but didn't was never taught any of it until you know only from school like my dad only spoke English to us but I was Always very fascinated with language and fascinated by the way that you know he could communicate with all of these different people so that was a huge inspiration for me and then when I Was in high school I actually went to do a what's it's like a high school exchange in France so at the time that was my first experience with a foreign language and it really changed my life it know my French is not definitely not as good as my Portuguese or my Spanish today but back then that was like my introduction into being able to kind of exist in another world in another culture and um my whole dad's side of the family speaks french so that's the reason I was I was motivated to do it um I spent four months in another family's house and just spoke french for four months and and came back really a different person just like much more mature much more independent and really enjoyed that process of kind of just being like a like a baby and having to relearn everything and and and just you know feeling how my brain really changed when I was was able to communicate and just build those bridges with people that before I wasn't able to. So I came back after that and was kind of just more interested in language and lived in a place in Wyoming where there just happens to be a lot of immigrants from Mexico. I played a lot of soccer. So then with a little bit of French under my belt, you know, just started learning some Spanish really just to play soccer and like interact with these guys on the weekend, you know, who didn't speak any English. And I had one, especially one really good friend who was also the guy who got me thinking about immigration because he was my age and he was a DACA recipient. So I saw him go through that whole DACA process and taught me a lot of the Spanish that I know and kind of brought me into the Mexican community in Jackson, Wyoming, where I lived. And that was then my introduction to Spanish. And French was never really very useful to me, but I thought that it was cool to be able to speak a little bit of French. But then Spanish became very useful because know, I was in a community where there were a lot Spanish speakers and I started working for a non -profit and built like this soccer camp for young kids in the Latino community and just had to interact with all of their parents so it kind of just happened organically where I was really motivated to learn Spanish because I was just interacting with so many families in Spanish so every day was just getting a little bit better and so I got a little Spanish under my belt was kind of you you know, conversational. And then when I was in college, I went to the University of Denver and did University of Denmark is very well known for their exchange programs. Was actually interested in going to Senegal first because I was studying French in college. I was still something that I really wanted to get better at. But then just very randomly, I was talking to a friend of mine who went to Brazil the year before and she just she just sold me on going to Brazil essentially she said like no I won't let you go anywhere else like Brazil will change your life if you go you have to it'll be the great experience so I found a program that was very similar to what I was doing with soccer and with non -profits at the time that was all about community development in Fortaleza Brazil and went there for four months when I was a junior in college and just fell in love with Brazilian culture was playing a lot of soccer all the time but really also just you know just getting to know people on a like on a grassroots roots level and just really fell in love with the um just the way that brazilian people are and the way that they interact and then I met the woman who would later become my wife and that really that really was is what made me uh you know motivated me to really get good at portuguese and interact with her and interact with their whole family and that you it took a long time but it was really she didn't speak any english so it was uh it was the best excuse to to really sit down and focus on Portuguese. So it took me, you know, it took some time and definitely a lot of headaches in not understanding a lot in all three of those languages for a long time. But, just really grateful to really have learned these three languages in a really organic way that now can be so useful in my work,

0:20:14 Matt: It has paid off.

0:20:16 Interviews: Something that I really am passionate about so it's great to be able to use it in a way to connect with people in a Professional way and really make a difference in their lives and the work that we do

0:20:24 Matt: I think that's really must be how you learned it so well. Like you're saying, just get in the community talking to people because you're so personable about this stuff. We probably have at least one person listening who speaks Portuguese. You want to give us a little taste of Brazilian Portuguese? Tell us about the weather or something?

0:20:36 Interviews: Sure. I'm here in BH Maybe there's someone who understands Portuguese Here, I love Minas. If you know Minas, you'll know the food, the coffee, the pão de queijo but it's much more than just that, and also the way that the Mineiro treats another person, something that I always remembered, even when I was leaving, I always needed to come back here, and I feel very at home here.

0:21:10 Matt: Nice. Nice. Works for me. So you're working for us and you're finishing up law school. How's that going from Brazil?

0:21:17 Interviews: Been interesting, you know, I mean even just working and going to law school in itself is not so easy. So I've been doing, I go to school at Suffolk Law in Boston. And I'm now in my third year, but I'm an evening student because I also work full time. So it's a four year program. So a little bit over halfway now. And, I mean, it's definitely easier now than it was at the beginning. It was hard, you being there from like 6 to 11 p .m. four days a week week um pretty intense at the beginning and I think at the beginning of law school they definitely try to scare you a little bit you know so the 1l year is is definitely um the hardest year but it's it's still a lot of work and it's Still a lot uh it's just a lot of information and I have come to realize you know it's just there's so much that you have to keep in your head and there's so much so you have to be able to remember um apply at the same time And, really grateful, you know, that I'm also able to be in in the legal field right now before I even finish law school, you know, where I'm already really being able to see what my life could look like as a lawyer. And that's really motivating, you know, for me to be able to finish these classes. And I'm just very grateful that has a program that I was able to apply for and get into where I can now complete the second half online so having the ability to to work online is huge for me that flexibility you know has really um me to to be here in brazil and really not only work with brazilians but understand brazilians in a way that otherwise I wouldn't be able to really so I think it's going to be something that you know I'm every day trying to take advantage of to of my ability today. But I think in the long term, coming back to the U .S. is going to be something that really changes me, too, and makes me, you know, someone who's more compassionate or just more knowledgeable about about the people that I'm working with.

0:23:01 Matt: Yeah, no, for sure. And I'm really glad you're able to keep working with us. We couldn't afford to lose you. And we really appreciate you so much. And I think you're already there. You're basically practicing law. You have a pretty good sense. I mean, obviously, you're not actually practicing law, I should be very clear about that. But you have a good sense of what makes a good lawyer and how to do these cases. And you're coming in with such a great humane perspective. We really do appreciate it. I'm going to let you get back to what you're doing in Brazil, but I just wanted to check in with you, say hi. But, yeah, no, really, just thanks again, James.

0:23:31 Interviews: Well, thank you. And I you know I really appreciate the opportunity to work with you and Nicole and Corey. And thank you for talking to me. And we'll talk tomorrow.

0:23:39 Matt: Very good. Bom dia.

0:23:40 Interviews: Right. Bom dia para você também.

0:23:43 Matt: Sylvie welcome to opening arguments uh happy to see you how's it going sure

0:23:46 Interviews: Been seeing it's going well you know it's just like a lot because a lot of clients are getting like scared of like going to court because of they're seeing the news that people are getting detained so I've just been like trying to calm clients down and trying to tell them like oh you can do it online if you have a lawyer and about the asylum payment it's stressing clients out and of them you just have to tell them this it's not their time yet yes

0:24:10 Matt: Introduced me to something I'd never seen before which was haitian creole tick tock that was news to me where a lot of people are getting the information right

0:24:18 Interviews: And I feel like it it can be useful sometimes it cannot because for example especially of the people getting detained it can be useful because I there's this Haitian lawyer and she's based in New York and she's showing how people are getting detained at this New York immigration office called Federal Plaza and so that's what I think that's what puts fears in people but like if it's just like the random people that like talk on the news that have no legal background and had I remember one time a client sent me a tiktok of saying oh when you apply for asylum you have to apply for withholding of removal I told him we automatically do that it's a part of the application and he was sending me this tiktak saying oh ifyou don't apply for that you better apply for this I'm I'm going to get deported. I was like, that's not true. You're not even immigration courts.

0:24:58 Matt: Come on and like it's some kind of secret hack or something like it just did the first check on the forum like come on sure

0:25:10 Interviews: Feel like they believe anybody that speaks their language. Like I could go on TikTok and just saying something legal, something like related to immigration, just because I'm Haitian. Like I'm seen as a credible person because, oh, I speak the same language. I'm able to connect. And I wouldn't lie to you because I speak to the same languages.

0:25:27 Matt: No well I think you're pretty credible you speak speak with a lot of confidence. That's all it takes, really.

0:25:30 Interviews: You yeah and people would like believe me although I'm spreading misinformation and then it just goes back to the attorney that they're actually working for you keep telling them no then they will listen to the journey but like they won't really fully listen to the attorney then come back and it's just a whole lot of process yes

0:25:50 Matt: Think it's just Asians. I think TikTok is ruining people's brains, personally, but that's just me.

0:25:53 Interviews: I unless we use TikTok in a positive way, I'm

0:25:57 Matt: I know it can be done. I knew it could be done, but we should back up for a second and tell people about you, because I don't think they would have guessed, but how old are you, Sylvie?

0:26:04 Interviews: 19. I just turned 19 in July.

0:26:07 Matt: Happy birthday. Also, happy naturalization. Congratulations. You' just become a citizen but last week you and your dad on the same day yeah

0:26:09 Interviews: You. Thank you. After 13 years, guys, I that's crazy. I would have never thought. Mean, we came to America on the same day, so

0:26:20 Matt: Didn't see that coming it's were introduced to us through James Hessler who has been working with us for a while I've already talked to him and he was your high school teacher is that right mm

0:26:28 Interviews: So and and James Hessler Mr. Hessler he was my Spanish teacher I had him my first year we there was new teachers and I wanted to meet the new teacher so I came with my dad and I met Mr. Hesler and we talked for a little bit just like a week before school opened then he was my Spanish teacher in that class me and my friend we would always eat in that class we would listen and focus I would obviously perform well but like I would always eat and he would just be like oh my god you guys are always eating like you know as a joke pulling our legs and stuff and he would share us what made him different from other teachers like he wasn't like he would show us our personal information like felt like I was there throughout his whole the whole process of his wife getting his um the green card because he would be be like oh guys you know I'm doing this process and he would show us the type of pictures that he would have to submit to immigration and stuff like that he felt like I explained that I was an immigrant but he didn't quite know that I was an immigrant I would pay attention and didn't even know he was working at a law firm then he briefly left in

0:27:34 Interviews: Me going into my um year I was really sad about it because I was like wow he's like I was a really really nice teacher like everybody loved him and was a great teacher great Spanish teacher sorry Mr. Hessler I can't speak Spanish for two years

0:27:37 Matt: -hm I'm sure yeah it's okay mine isn't that great either. I'm still learning myself. But no, we all love James, of course. We just talked to him so that the audience get to know him a little bit. But that's really awesome. And we were, honestly, I'm going to tell you, we were a little skeptical about getting a high school student into the office. We'd never done that before, but worked out.

0:28:05 Interviews: School has a senior internship program where every Wednesday second semester you're obligated to go to an internship unpaid to get a real life experience I feel like that helped me at first I wasn't really interested in law I was interested my whole family was in health care and I had thought oh maybe health care is for me because I had a good experience with a PA that helped me during my car accident but then like I realized that like math and I realized that was like what my parents wanted me to do that wasn't really what like I wanted to do so then when I couldn't find an internship at a hospital they offered me me to work with Mr. Hessler I was like oh okay I didn't really know what Mr. Hessler did I know he worked at a law firm then was really scared because I'm young I'm still in high school people might think oh she's just 17 18 she's not really mature she doesn't really know much then my first day um 26th I got introduced to everybody everybody seemed very nice and like was another intern there Alana like we would talk time to time I would get to know I didn't know she's like a law school student and she also spoke Spanish so a lot of people were bilingual then as time progresses I learned that a lot people are immigrants so I'm not only like the only immigrant working at an immigration law firm and created like a lot of bonds like I feel like my time here progressed because when I first came I was arranging papers I remember I was in your office arranging paper and I think the purpose of that was like to get me familiarized with the forms like you had made me separate the I-765 which is application for employment authorization receipts then you made me separate the I-589 receipts which is application for withholding application for asylum withholding of removal I

0:30:00 Interviews: Think I'm saying it wrong then and when the Haitian clients actually started coming in my first Haitian client I talked to I was really nervous because I was like Like, what if I'm not really Haitian enough for the people that's actually Haitian that was that left more recent? Because while a bilingual person and speaking both languages, to some people you might seem Haitian enough, to other people you may not, because they might say, oh, because you left Haiti at a young age and you grew up here, you're more Americanized, you don't really know how to speak the language. That's one thing I was nervous about. Out but did his apply application and that was my first work permit then from there I just progressed in where I am today

0:30:00 Matt: You got it? You got him? Yeah,

0:30:42 Interviews: As a pre-law student yeah

0:30:42 Matt: You sure did. Yeah. You're at UMass Lowell. You'RE doing really well. You've been a month in now, two months, I don't know. You'll probably come up on midterms terms of finals by now. But yeah, you got it. You got it now. You're a pro. And you walked in full confidence, full personality first day. And like I said, I didn't know what to expect of the high school student, but we've really come to appreciate you. You've been great. And maybe you are great. You're still working with us.

0:30:48 Interviews: Finals and I'm taking business law and I don't know it's a little hard it's little hard yes

0:31:12 Matt: The hours you can pick up. And your real ambassador to the community too, because we didn't really have a regular Haitian Creole speaker. And it's so important right now with the Haitian community being the size that it is and just the limited access to resources that the community has right now.

0:31:12 Interviews: Yes I feel like I was able to like do my work more I could be an interpreter and not be an immigrant I felt like I was about to connect with the clients and the clients were able to trust me when I shared the fact that I was also an immigrant from Haiti because I would know like the struggles and the of stuff although I wasn't there in the parts where they had like threats by gang members I was there when the 20 turn earthquake struck and everybody lost their houses and stuff like that so I feel like being an immigrant myself and seeing how I can help with clients is something like I take pride in because like back in the days in like 2010 immigrants especially especially Haitians they used to say like Haitians eat mud cake and with all the stereotypes going around with Haitians and how like they claim that we eat cats and all the negative stereotypes I feel like I'm enforcing the better stereotype so I'm proud of that

0:32:18 Matt: It's ridiculous. You're just being And, you know, I got to say, I've never met anybody who's ever eaten a cat as far as I know from anywhere. I don't know where that's coming from, but it's nonsense. I just, it's really hard to see, you now, cause we've worked with so many Haitian clients, so many wonderful people over the years. And I just I can't believe that Trump would go after that community, you of all communities to kind of as we're We're closing out here. What's kind of the mood of the community right now that you're getting? Like, how are things?

0:32:40 Interviews: So getting since as you know TPS is ending and TPS had originally started like I said because of the 2010 earthquake that happened I remember because I was there um january 12 2010 and a lot of people got affected by like people had no houses had to sleep on streets and that was the creation of tps that was a whole purpose to help patients but now under since tps is starting to come to an end in February 2026 a lot of people are getting laid off jobs and a lot of people just started applying for asylum and a Lot of people making the decision to apply for asylum although that they have family members in Haiti that they want to see and that they can't come back to see it and a Let people are getting laid -off which is very serious topic because a A lot of clients are calling and to get their clock to work faster. But although you have like an attorney, like is hard to be explained to them the reality and be sympathetic at the same time. Feel Like when you try to explain the reality, it might come off of you not being sympathetic. But I understand that like don' have a job right now. Now you're currently laid off because your employer said because of your status ending that you have no opportunity. To work here and all you have to do is get laid off. You're waiting for your 150 days or might say like 180 days technically to get the work permit. And it's just like a lot because they're saying their rent and their payments and like how they're getting low of money, which is very understandable because everybody's human and losing your job all of a sudden and having all this many bills is not something that like we would want. But having to explain to them the reality and that they have to wait or that the still hasn't answered the email that the attorney sent regarding the work permit it reality that explaining to them seems like it's a seems like you're like discouraging them or like you'RE putting them down since they hired you for something so hard. It's know a lot of clients are saying or calling and asking what can the attorney do, but not knowing that in the reality, after getting an attorney and being in this situation you are, it is mostly on the judge and the attorney can't just go off to the judge, and say, oh do this now, do this, now, like.

0:35:03 Matt: Yeah. No, and I wish I could explain the clock in a way that made sense, the asylum clock, which I wouldn't have time to talk about how that actually works right now, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. And that's what I tell clients sometimes is like, this is a system that's designed to keep you from getting a work permit. And that's what it's doing. Like, we're really trying. But when it stopped, it stopped. It's tough. But so I want to ask you, but just before we go there real quick, you still want to be a lawyer after seeing all this? Yeah, you do.

0:35:23 Interviews: Yes, I do, because I want to be a lawyer because like or even uh um the ucis represented like not the immigration not the high school obviously not interviewer but

0:35:35 Matt: Interviewer. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you'd be great at it.

0:35:40 Interviews: I feel like my confidence in being a bilingual and looking statistically there's not really much like Haitian lawyers. And if there is Haitian lawyers, they're seen negatively because some of them will upcharge you or like not treat your case seriously or not treat you well because you guys are the same ethnicity. I'm trying to like delete that stereotype and show, yes, I'm Haitian. Yes, I was raised here. Just because I'm Haitian doesn't mean that like I'm not any better than like a white lawyer. You know what I'm saying? Because a lot of Haitians get scared of the Haitian lawyers because like oh they will probably charge you more or not take your case seriously like I'm trying to show clients like we do take your case seriously you know or you had put this in my mind I wasn't really thinking about it or I could be a um immigration field office person I think that's what it's called after having that interviewer to see how like she was really understanding and caring like I was obviously nervous and my whole body was like shaking and my citizenship interview and she was very understanding she was no medical emergencies here and she understood like how I'm like like I'm not considered young in immigration system but she understood that I was young and that like she knew that I studied the things but she seen me stuck and she didn't just oh you're failed she gave me some time to take a deep breath and stuff like that like I want to be that because sometimes immigration officers some people think I'm not gonna lie I thought that like were scary or people that was trying to like ruin your life because I would watch things on TikTok I'm a victim of TikTok news I am a victim of TikTok of them interrogating you and being rude and say oh why did you do this what did I wasn't really scared but got a nice one and she was relatable and she was even so nice that she even took my dad after seeing him sit outside with me and wait for me like

0:36:34 Matt: Like an adjudicator. Your citizenship interview. Yeah. When he was supposed to be interviewed the next day, she just brought him in and got it done, right? Sounds awesome. No, that's great. Now, wait, I got to go here, but we really appreciate you, and it's so good. It's been so great to get to know you, Anna. I appreciate you stopping in here, and good luck with school. Good luck with finals.

0:37:51 Interviews: And my you too see you in December okay

0:37:54 Matt: Alana how are you doing? What have you been working today?

0:37:57 Interviews: I'm good. Today, I have mostly been sitting in a T visa training and working on a memo for a special immigrant juvenile case.

0:38:05 Matt: Favorite things about getting new attorneys in is you guys get to start learning things that I don't know anything about and even Kelly and Nicole got this teeth thing going pretty well now.

0:38:14 Interviews: It's starting to get a little bit more consistent now that we have a bit more of a grasp on it and the training today was actually incredibly helpful.

0:38:20 Matt: So just real quick, can you tell everybody what T -vises are?

0:38:23 Interviews: So a T visa has a couple of different ways to access it. It's through, it's essentially the trafficking visa and that's through either labor trafficking or sex trafficking. Oh, that looks like a lot of different things.

0:38:33 Matt: It's pretty complicated. A lot of steps. Takes a long time from what I can tell.

0:38:37 Interviews: Yeah. There's lots of certifications. It is best to have a T visa certification or labor certification through different agencies. Have to have worked with an agency to help come to a close with the damage that was done to them. So not just that you can claim it without anything.

0:38:52 Matt: No, it takes a lot of proof. So you are a fellow Washingtonian, which I really appreciate because you've got that chill kind of, and also not much of an accent in the same way that I think maybe I don't. But what brought you from Washington State out here?

0:39:04 Interviews: It actually was just law school. So I went to college in Washington, lived in Spain briefly, and then went back once that was down. And lived there for I think in total about 10 years, and moved out here for school at Northeastern for law school, just a little bit mostly when I say gracias that's that's the big one it

0:39:18 Matt: And you picked up a little bit of a Barcelona accent in Spain, I've noticed.

0:39:26 Matt: Probably a little confusing using for our Central American clients, but I think it's a nice touch.

0:39:31 Interviews: Makes a lot more sense when they hear that I

0:39:33 Matt: Yeah, your Spanish is great, obviously. And it's one of the reasons you're here. But what got you interested in immigration law?

0:39:38 Interviews: Think there's so many things I think in a lot of ways it was like the culmination of of a lot of things that happened in my life um started studying Spanish from a young age I think about this a lot I there was a book that I read when I was a kid called Esperanza Rising. I think that was pretty influential more than I realized um it's about a girl story from who immigrated from Mexico. Also experienced some immigration issues when I was living in Spain and going between Morocco and Spain and seeing the realities of immigration there. And then after that, I came back to Washington and I was working in a law firm for workers' compensation and personal injury. And a lot of the clients there were immigrants. So working with that population was really enlightening. And then working at a non-profit agency that I worked at after and seeing the actual advocacy that could be had for people who don't have that access was was a massive realization for me

0:40:31 Matt: Yeah, and I can tell your heart's always been in it. It seems like something you've been pretty consistent about. And we took you on as a co -op student through Northeastern Law earlier this year. And then you've come to join us since then. And the really exciting thing for me is that we've had the opportunity to get a grant from the state to have you do cases for people that wouldn't otherwise be able to afford us. And that's something we've really wanted to be able do for a long time. You came along at just the right time. Are you feeling about that, about the grant?

0:40:55 Interviews: Excited about I think there's a lot for us to learn still of course but the idea of getting to be able to do essentially sort of a legal services situation while here is really exciting to me. It's a lot easier for me mentally and emotionally to not have to pay as much or to have the access that they need without having to sacrifice anything else in their life yes

0:41:14 Matt: Yeah, you're going to have the luxury of getting to do your first year as a practicing lawyer without really having to ever ask anybody for money, which I envy that, I've got to say. It's not my favorite part of the job. Oh, of course, I forgot to mention, you were just sworn in, what, a couple of days ago, right? Congratulations.

0:41:28 Interviews: Thank you. Last week. Does it feel any different yet? But I'm sure it will soon it's

0:41:32 Matt: It's a big deal to be a Massachusetts attorney. Enjoyed I the whole thing myself. Are you feeling about your first year of practice going in with this administration?

0:41:40 Interviews: Definitely daunting. I think it would probably be daunting under any circumstance um it definitely there's a lot to be working around and working through but the support of everyone here has been helpful I have lots of questions every day for

0:41:52 Matt: And it's one of my favorite things about you is you have the right questions and you're always really ready to learn. That right away, of course. And of course, more than anything, you've got the passion for it. And I really appreciate the care just right right away when we took you in as a co-op and we were just kind of supervising you, I could see right away I could leave you alone with clients and you could hang out, have a good time, feel comfortable. You know, that's just such an important part of this work, part of the job. Else you want to talk about right now or that people should know about kind of getting started as an immigration lawyer in 2025?

0:42:22 Interviews: Don't know if there's anything specific something I was thinking about before coming to talk to you about this was just thinking about how scared people are and how much their decisions are being based in fear and that that is something that has been striking me more and more I think in comparison to when I was here on co -op, I think people are more and more scared. Just seeing how much that impacts the decision making has been really sad. And I hope that we're able to guide people to make it as rationally as possible.

0:42:51 Matt: Yeah, no, I think that has been, it's something we've been talking about a lot, just sort of the collective trauma, the misinformation, kind of the feeling that ICE is everywhere. But I think you have a very calming sort of way about you. And I think that you understand, as well as anybody, how important it is just kind of talk people through these cases and tell them about their risks, tell them About their responsibilities, kind of get them a sense of what is actually ahead, what could be happening. It's harder than ever to predict this stuff. Know, I think we've got a pretty good start here. Appreciate it. And I'm happy to have you come on, talk to us.

0:43:21 Interviews: Thanks for having me.

0:43:22 Matt: Thanks for being here. Right. Kelly Zimmerhansel, congratulations on your first year of practice. How are you feeling?

0:43:32 Interviews: Thank you. Exhausted? Is that an okay answer? I

0:43:37 Matt: That's legit. I think we're all feeling that. All Right. I will confess. I think we've talked about this before, but I can't actually remember when we met or how long you've been with us because you just seem like one of those people who've just been around for a long time, which you have, but you were around for some of the first Trump administration. You do remember some of The Craziness, right?

0:43:52 Interviews: Do. I do I started in, I believe it was September of 2019 so I do recall the financial form in history that we only had to do briefly and it kept going away and coming back and calling people and telling them that it was on and now it was off and they thought I was crazy crazy.

0:44:14 Matt: Forgot about that. Actually, the public charge nonsense, Nonsense, man. And all the extra work, like the extra like 50 % that we ended up having to file with all that.

0:44:21 Interviews: It was really a crazy one.

0:44:23 Matt: Good memories. Why I can't remember those because you're just like in that pre -pandemic six months that we met and then pandemic breaks out and you transitioned pretty well. But you were at Wellesley at the time when we met, right? See?

0:44:36 Interviews: I was definitely post -Wellesley, but I did go to Wellesley. So you nailed that.

0:44:44 Matt: Of course. Of course. Yeah, yeah. You found it through the Wellesley Network, of course, through Nicole. Had you started well school by 2019?

0:44:50 Interviews: Not until after.

0:44:51 Matt: That's right. Yeah. See, again, anything before the pandemic, my memory is just so hazy. Going to ask you this, like, like I don't know, but what are you doing with us these days?

0:44:59 Interviews: An associate attorney on a lot of T visa cases, some removal defense, you know, asylum, all sorts of things really.

0:45:10 Matt: And you're fully fluent in Spanish. How'd you pick that up?

0:45:13 Interviews: I grew up in San Antonio, Texas, so that helped. I spent a year abroad in Chile, so, that helped as well. And, then, of course, my husband is Puerto Rican, so, talking to my mother -in -law.

0:45:27 Matt: You've been pretty much working on immigration law since then, right? Since for the last, what is it, six years now somehow? Wow.

0:45:33 Interviews: Yes, definitely since 2019 it has been, it has been the thing. I

0:45:40 Matt: Well, I think you're pretty good at it. What is your advice to somebody who's thinking about going into it right now or might be in law school right now?

0:45:46 Interviews: Guess my best advice would just be to try and get as much practice experience as you can. I think that having been a paralegal at the office really helped me when it came to, you doing internships and also doing at law school and all of those things.

0:46:10 Interviews: I and, um, you can never get too much experience. I am definitely still learning things every single day. So I would say get as much of a breadth of experience as you can. Every office works a little different. Every nonprofit works a little differently. Every law clinic works a little different, so don't think, oh, I've already done that. I don't need to do it again. Um, much different experiences as you can.

0:46:35 Matt: That's good advice. And I really believe in the Northeastern co -op program at both the law school and Northeaster undergrad. And of course, you're not the only person in our office to benefit from the co -off program or for us to benefit From you, because I really believe in getting people into the workplace while they're trying to learn. I never got to do that. And I think that really was such a good thing for you and Alana and Taka and everybody else that we've we've been able to hire through the program. Also had the opportunity to work at a couple of nonprofits, at least before you came to work with us through

0:47:03 Interviews: Yeah, so I before, but sort of during. Well, I guess before as well, but it was sort of in a different field. Coming to you guys, I did a food corps, which is an AmeriCorps program for two years. Then after, while I was doing my co -ops in law school, I was at both Rhian Immigrant Center and GBLS at different times. I think it was a good experience to sort of, you know, see how the nonprofit world works and also how different nonprofits operate, because I did feel like they were different. So it was it was a fun experience to get out there.

0:47:37 Matt: Never worked at a non -profit what's different yeah

0:47:39 Interviews: Unfortunately, you do have to turn a lot of people away, which I guess we also have to send people away sometimes, but for different reasons. That there's often, like, a lack of capacity at nonprofits. Thought lot of consults but are not able to take every single case.

0:47:57 Matt: How's the year been like you know spiritually I don't know emotionally how's it been feeling versus other years 2025 that's

0:48:09 Interviews: Been stressful and I don't know, you know, part of that I think is probably being a first year attorney because I think that I have learned that there are many things that I still don't know, which is very unnerving for me. I love knowing things. Also a big part of that has been how many of our clients have gotten detained or how many phone calls we get a day from people who are detained or have a loved one who's detained and sort of having to deal with that and you recently having to say we actually can't help at all uh which is a really tough position to be in um have to tell people multiple times a day just like there's nothing we can do um been a tough year to be a first-year attorney because there's just been so many changes and feels like the law is a moving target and whatever I tell people may or may not be the case about you know their case I can't make any promises you know about what I smear may not do and in previous times maybe I could say oh you you know, they won't detain you if you're in that situation. But now I feel anxious about making any promises about ice not detaining anyone. So can be a tricky position.

0:49:36 Matt: The best we can do and uh no it is a strange time to be coming in because I've always felt a lot more certainty about a lot of this stuff myself but we're really seeing the limits of the law in many ways, and also, I guess, the lack of limits in the way it can be handled and carried out. So did want to ask you, too. Allowed to have a bad day, but I've never really seen you have a bad day. Like, it's not really a thing that you do very often. Just really handle things so well. You have such a wonderful disposition. What's your secret? How do you do it?

0:50:01 Interviews: Of all, I want to make clear that I definitely do have bad days um I do think that it's important to kind of take a step back and you at whatever positive happened in my day whatever I did happen to get accomplished um been going to therapy recently which has been great shout out to my therapist um so I think that's, that's a very good thing. But yeah, I think just focusing on the small wins, because sometimes that's all we get right now. I think that that can be that can be huge.

0:50:27 Matt: Every lawyer should. Yeah, for sure. I'm with you. And try to feel the same way. Of course, you're allowed to have a bad day. I'm here to talk about it. But you're just always so happy and smiley. I mean, it's just, I mean you shouldn't say, how else to put it. You're sunny. You're just, you have a wonderful personality. And we love having you around. And you know, we really were so happy when you agreed to stick around because we knew pretty much as soon as you started as a paralegal, we wanted to keep you around in one way or another. And it's been really fun to watch you, you know, continue to grow and learn and asking all the right questions, doing everything that I'd ever want a first year associate to do. So really appreciate you. Thank you so much, Kelly.

0:51:13 Interviews: I appreciate that. Thank you, Matt.

0:51:16 Matt: Right, Nicole Mischeroni, long overdue. Welcome to Opening Arguments.

0:51:20 Interviews: Thank you. Glad to finally be here.

0:51:23 Matt: We haven't known each other a long time now. We were introduced by mutual friend in 2013. Is that right?

0:51:30 Interviews: Right.

0:51:31 Matt: That's so long ago. I feel like right now. Like 400 presidents ago. Yeah, almost.

0:51:33 Interviews: Is. Just about, yes. I

0:51:39 Matt: And at the time, I have to say my business was struggling because I didn't know what I was doing. I I know to practice law basically but I had no idea how to actually run a business and you were very interested in practicing immigration law and you knew how to run a business or at least you gave a good impression of somebody who did I guess you didn't but we did we did and I couldn't have done it alone I know that so I owe you everything for that certainly and I just have the absolute pleasure of getting to practice with you and see you most days you're at home right now as you often are but you're very efficient working from home are you working on another

0:51:53 Interviews: Don't know that I did know how to run a business, but we did figure it out together. That was exciting. Personal life, my parents are here and they are helping me rip up some rugs in my new house.

0:52:22 Interviews: But I, in work life, am working on... I had a court hearing this morning. It was a voluntary departure hearing. I've been talking to a lot of people that are very nervous about TPS ending. Ending Haitians and Venezuelans dealing with some artists and they're moving parts trying to get some visa applications filed and somebody wants to bring their wife here and a detained case up in Maine so it's been an interesting mix today yes we will well

0:52:54 Matt: Main detained case we'll talk about that after um you do a really interesting range of stuff we all have our own little specialties here um all of us every attorney in the office knows how to do removal defense and uh you know asylum and family visas but you also as you mentioned uh do a lot of work for artists which is super cool and with these extraordinary ability visas get to be like an agent to immigration to explain why these people are cool and should get to stay here how does that work tell us a little bit of the process.

0:53:18 Interviews: It's called an exceptional ability visa there are two types there's some that end up in green cards and some that end up in temporary visas but for both you have to show that somebody is at the very top of their field we collect recommendation letters we collect press articles awards a list of past performances or showcases or events they've done and we work on a three -year schedule usually it's three years but sometimes it varies um what their plans are so upcoming features performances documentaries imagery, news appearances, and we get to package it up and show why somebody is great at what they do.

0:54:00 Matt: It's a lot of fun. I've done a few of them myself, but I love watching you work on them. Very time intensive and requires a lot from the client as well. And I'm sure the Trump administration has only made them easier. I'm Sure they're just letting everybody through these days, right?

0:54:13 Interviews: Just like everything else, just getting easier and easier. Now it's a lot of paper. It's a lot nerves. Now, I think everybody's very anxious. And there's a lot of uncertainty about timing, scheduling, and whether or not they'll qualify, whether the rules will change so far the rules on these have not changed or the process has changed less than other things I would say but there's just a lot of general anxiety um they were getting a lot harder under biden too so something that used to be a couple hundred pages is now 600 pages because you have to take everything five steps further so it's not enough to be like this person was in the new york times you then have to say this person is in the new york times and here's what the new York Times is and here's why the New York Times is an important paper right so it's stuff that everybody knows everybody except for these adjudicators apparently because they think that's important information to include in the package

0:55:07 Matt: Failing New York Times, never heard of it. Doing great work on them and we seem to get them approved more often than not. Pretty much all of them are approved, I mean, as far as I know. So very proud of that. And these are, of course, the people that you went out on the street and asked, I think most people would say, yeah, of course we want to have one of the world's top violinists or documentary filmmakers in this subject, or a guy who knows how to have AI recognize. Well, this one's a little scary, but at some point we did some work with somebody who was doing facial recognition with AI, that kind of stuff. It was before it was really too scary.

0:55:15 Interviews: Just about yes we've had a cool I mean I'd say I work with a lot more artists but there's been some really interesting science related ones or small businesses using different types types of drones, military, are used in military functions, just cool science things, just really cutting edge research in different fields.

0:55:59 Matt: In the right place for it because of course, we have some of the best universities in the country and the Best Arts as well. So it's just a really really cool place to be practicing.

0:56:06 Interviews: It is. And I also talk to people, I mean, I talked to a lot of local Boston people, recent grads from different schools, but I also work with a lot of people all over the country. So it's really interesting to hear what's going on in California? What's going on in Texas? I also work with people that are currently abroad and trying to come here. So it's a really interesting mix and it's little bit different than what we get for some of our other types of cases.

0:56:28 Matt: Yeah, no, you really do the full range. Speaking of enforcement, I guess, you made the news a few months ago when I sent you a notice letting you know that you needed to report so that you could leave the country. Looks like you're still here, as far as I know. I saw you the other day. You haven't left the country yet.

0:56:41 Interviews: Here. And everybody that I haven't seen in a long time keeps telling me that I'm still here being like, oh, it's nice to see you're still here. So I'm so here. I have no plans to leave except for maybe a short vacation sometime, but I'm going to be staying here.

0:56:56 Matt: Please don't leave, yeah. I think it's funny, you know, when that happened that you and I immediately thought this was funny. I mean, I guess we're just immigration attorneys. We have dark sense of humor but like you get this notice in your own name telling you that your status is terminated and it's time to leave the united states and I'm like well obviously this is a mistake but I got a lot of attention why do you think it took off like that yeah

0:57:14 Interviews: I caught everybody's attention because everybody was already concerned about the increased ICE enforcement and the seeming randomness of it. And there had been a lot of hypotheticals about could this ever impact US citizens? And I think I happened to be basically the first US citizen that, or not the first, but one of the first major ones that hit the news. It was like, okay, here's how it impacts somebody that was born here. And since then, we've seen ICE impact a lot of other U .S. citizens. So there have been a lot U .N. citizens that have been detained or other types of interactions with immigration. But it's scary. And I think it hits home with a lot people that don't deal with immigrants every day or think that they're not at risk to see that with such a broad net, anybody can be impacted.

0:58:04 Matt: And you've been doing this since I guess the end of the second obama term right if

0:58:10 Interviews: Yes, that sounds right. Like a long time ago, but yes.

0:58:14 Matt: Like what are the differences been from then till now.

0:58:18 Interviews: There's a lot of differences. I mean, immigration wasn't perfect under Obama either. So I think a lot of people forget that there was still a lot of deportations happening. There was a lot of families that had a member that was forced to leave the United States even back then. Um, so there's been a lot of detained cases and things like that over the last 12, almost 13 years now, I guess. Been a of swings back and forth in the law and BIA decisions and policies that the president can directly impact. But I think overall, there's a lot more paperwork now. The forums keep getting longer. Our responses keep getting longer. The wait times are longer. So it seems like everything has slowed down and big picture. I don't know that we've made a lot of progress with helping different groups that we wanted to help or lots of people have wanted to over the last 12, 13 years. Keep talking about immigration reform or helping dreamers and these big picture things that I think most Most people agree on a lot of it, and there's been no big changes, which is why we are where we are right now.

0:59:27 Matt: For sure, for sure. Kind of looking back here now that you've been doing this for a while, any advice for people that might be thinking about doing it or going to law school or getting into immigration law in some way?

0:59:37 Interviews: It, but make sure it's what you want to do and you're in it, because it's hard. It's emotionally hard. It's very rewarding, but you have to be certain this is what you wanna do. I love it, so I think that there are other people out there that will also love it.

0:59:53 Matt: Dispositionally you're very well cut out for it. You're a very optimistic sort of positive person and have a good sense of reality is my observation. Every lawyer should, you've taken care of your mental health how you've been doing that yeah

1:00:04 Interviews: Been trying to. Too. I've been trying to protect me time on weekends as much as I can and nights and just setting for me and things that I like to do and are just totally separate from what we do at the office every day. And then I think as long as I'm refreshed, it's easier for me to come in and help people and keep going.

1:00:25 Matt: That seems to be working for you um

1:00:26 Interviews: It's also really fun working with you. We've gotten to have a really special relationship I feel like um we've been through a lot together professionally and personally and there's obviously I mean even just growing the business and seeing some of our big cases and our small cases and all the ups and downs so I think we have a very unique special relationship because of all we've been through, which is a nice perk to all of this.

1:00:32 Matt: It's true yeah I I really do and uh there's there's really something special about running a business with someone that you trust and care about and friendship means a lot to me too and I look forward every week whenever we can to getting out and having a drink and talking about everything um a little strange to be sitting here so you know in such a formal way talking about this when we usually would be having a drink.

1:00:57 Interviews: Definitely. Yes. Know because we do it all the time and it's kind of become our tradition on Fridays when neither of us have other plans to get an end of the week drink or snack and just catch up about what's going on. And it's actually one of the ways I take care of myself because sometimes it's light and fun and sometimes we can talk about the serious stuff and we can go back and forth and a lot of really great ideas have come out of it um social media presence has gotten I'm getting better at it because of the friday drinks um I still need to post again sometime soon because I've been slacking a little but I will um yeah so it's been great um

1:01:40 Matt: We're training you. Yeah no, absolutely. And really fun to have you on, and you know we've been through, as you said, a lot. We actually went down to Tijuana a few times before the pandemic. Was that, wait, was it before the pandemi? It was after the pandemic, wasn't it? Wait, that was before me too

1:02:00 Interviews: Know I've lost all track of time but it was before um because everything got shut down during the pandemic so yeah so we've gotten to travel we've been on adventures near and far all immigration related um immigration related but it's been fun it's been fun and I've learned a lot and it's done some really incredible experiences And

1:02:02 Matt: It was before okay that's right yeah yeah many more to come is that right yeah no that really that's fine something about coming down from Massachusetts to see the border together was really life -changing for me at least yeah well thanks Nicole we'll talk to you soon was just going back and looking at my email, and I have an email from February 8th, 2024, from Olivia Komosinski, a Northeastern student in my 2021 fall immigration policy class. And I just wanted to read a small excerpt from this email that you may remember sending. And just for those who are out there looking for work right now who are feeling down, I think this is some good advice about how to get yourself a job. Hadn't spoken with you in three years, but of course you'd been a student in my immigration policy class and I was very impressed with what you showed me at the time. Then I get this email, which was very kind and it was a very nice email, but it also included, which I very much enjoyed, I will say up front, -grad I did as checked out communications majors do and signed on with the first marketing team that would had me skipping things settled down I realized I was going to seriously explode if I continued to half -assedly pour 40 hours a week into what I believe to be a crack of useless diabolical fucking nonsense uh casual profanity absolutely the way to get a job with me or at least to talk about one and you just did the thing which I would recommend anybody do that like if you had a professor that you liked or that you you got a good grade in the class, or if they invite you to follow up at some point, follow up and just say, trying to figure this out, what's going on? Can we talk? Know, I don't know how much that paid off for you, but I'm very glad that you did.

1:02:23 Interviews: More to come. Yeah, definitely. Me too. Right. Thank you.

1:03:51 Interviews: It's been absolutely fabulous. And mind you, for the audience, that was me at my lowest point. I was just like, after leaving my marketing job, I was like, oh man, this next phase of what I want to do and the impact I want to make is going to require a little bit more grunt work than I was used to putting in. So yeah, it was just a crazy intersection of just amazing things happening for me at that time so I I be thankful enough for you and and for for oa and for this whole this whole thing for opening up because been able to do amazing amazing work with with the show um

1:04:37 Matt: I disagree. And I want to say it too. I don'T know if you're aware, but, but February 8th, 2024 was the date. This is just a weird piece of serendipity, but it was the day that the first episode of OWA with me on it aired. And I was just starting to think about how am I going to do this? I run a law office and I'm I'm supposed to be doing a podcast several times a week in which I'm going to have to go in -depth on legal topics. Now, I know a lot about legal topics, but I don't know enough to just sit down and spout things off. Nobody does, it turns out. I hate to spoil the podcast magic, but if you listen to any kind of podcast in any kindof depth, we're all working from notes. Now again, to be clear, and you can confirm this, we don't script anything. I'm very proud of it. Do invite you to suggest jokes and talking points, and I occasionally use them and I appreciate them, you produce for me invaluable outlines and background materials and I don't get to use a lot of the stuff that you come up with but you give me a broad range of things to pick from because we've got a pretty good sense at this point of what I like and what works for me I think you knew coming in after taking my class what I think is funny which is a really important part of the job so how do you go about it when you know that we'll be talking about something thing.

1:05:42 Interviews: It really does take all of of my ADHD reigning in skills that I've learned over the years to lock in for the day or two days of turnaround we need for each episode. So like with the news, I really try to stay on top of things. A lot of the preliminary part of the research is just getting the lay of the land and making sure that I have a strong enough understanding of the basics of what's going on. Feel like things just jump off the page to me, like, oh, this opinion or whatever, and I look for the actual document. Start getting into courtlistener .com dockets, that is when the real work starts.

1:06:22 Matt: Yeah, you have no background in law, at least you came in with none. And you are getting pretty good at reading decisions. Now, I mean, I do the legal analysis, to be clear with everybody. I really need those background materials. I need links to every single primary source I can find, because it takes a lot to get all this stuff. And then I need somebody to be my backup brain and try to remember, like, day to day, look what we're doing. And also to dig out the stuff, you know, I'm going to find is interesting from law review articles and interviews, and just, Just, you know, finding video clips and just all the stuff that it takes to make this podcast, you know, I think the quality that it is. Just wanted to appreciate you in that because I don't think that people realize that what you're hearing is a product of an intense amount of work from not just one, but two people. I think that's pretty cool. Really appreciate it. I just wanted to let you know that. But you, when you were writing me that email, you were looking potentially for a law job. Are you still thinking about the law after all this?

1:06:32 Interviews: Course, of course. Yeah, I definitely am still still thinking about the law. I only 26. So I'm still a little bit scattered in life. And I really want to make sure I try my hand at everything before I make the decision to take the test and do the thing and be in debt for X amount of years. It's definitely on the horizon. I, actually had the privilege to be able to take on some paralegal assignments for um matt's firm um not sure if I'm allowed to say am I um immigration paralegal work that matt has given me the opportunity to do has been just so it's really the kind of storytelling that I've always wanted to do um I remember I was speaking some kind of like poem at a like elementary school graduation ceremony and I remember a teacher came up to me and said like have a really really powerful voice and you definitely need to channel that into something that you feel passionate about so definitely know that you always have that power and I think with with Matt's class taking immigration law and realizing just how colossally fucked up everything is I I kind of knew that I wanted to use my my storytelling abilities to um for people um been really amazing to uh even start on that journey and definitely doing my research for OA gives me so much insight into a lot of different parts of the law. Found that I really love it. I mean, reading through these filings, it can be a little bit monotonous. And I do feel like my eyeballs are going to dry up and fall out of my skull sometimes. But it really is fascinating to see the inner workings of the legal system. And I I've I've really taken to it and I I wouldn't be able to do it without matt so shout out matt thank you so much for for believing in

1:09:15 Interviews: Me and taking a chance on a huge absurd oversharing email

1:09:15 Matt: Of course. No, it's perfect, honestly, because I think that we've talked about this before, but like there's just so many ways the traditional job channels just don't really work or that at least around here, you know, I don't know how it works in other places, but it's pretty normal to go through a professor or, you, know, a previous job or, you know try to just have opportunities open up that way.

1:09:37 Matt: And I only wish that I were able to give you a full job if you spoke Spanish. I've told you before we'd hire you as is paralegal, but we can't have any monolingual paralegals right now.

1:09:37 Interviews: Definitely

1:09:44 Matt: But you've gotten a pretty good exposure to immigration law, just kind of hanging around the office and doing the work we've given you. And I know you've got your own immigrant background. Are you still interested in immigration law? Is that something you want to

1:09:44 Interviews: Yeah absolutely um mom moved to the states from the philippines in the 80s and um I grew up around very loving very proud filipinos and um just think that the country is a better place because people like my family members are in it and they are very active in uh communities in their churches and they're they're playing music and serving food and um having giant family parties and I yeah Yeah, I'm rambling now, but I really do feel passionately about advocating for immigrant communities. And working on the Spanish part of it. Really do look forward to diving into that a little bit deeper.

1:10:42 Matt: One of those people who's cursed with so much potential talent that I could see you going into publicity, as I know, you've talked about doing before and just absolutely killing a that and I can see you absolutely killing as a lawyer too uh so you know I'm happy to support you whatever happens here um obviously I selfishly want to keep you around as a research assistant as long as possible but we uh you know really just appreciate everything you do to make this show happen and uh really good to talk to you today any other closing thoughts yeah

1:11:07 Interviews: Want to thank the audience for continuing to support the show and being so engaged. I mean, you guys on Patreon, on Instagram, show us so much love. And we we really wouldn't be here without all of you so shout out to the audience yep

1:11:23 Matt: For sure and and check out our instagram for sure to follow those collages that olivia puts together as our social media manager uh some very creative and entertaining art uh that I've enjoyed over the years so

1:11:33 Interviews: Definitely feels a lot better to be um collages and doing social media management for a podcast that has a personality and that has so much life in it and allows me latitude to throw some humor in there because I don't know doing social social media management when you're trying to sell something like is a little bit tough the spirit.

1:11:57 Matt: Sure. Although, if anybody's hearing this and thinking, wow, this sounds like somebody I really should hire, you're right. And especially if you can leave some room for her to continue to help produce the show. But, you know, just want to put that plug out there for you, too.

1:12:11 Interviews: Shameless, shameless plug. On LinkedIn.

1:12:15 Matt: You got it. All right. Well, get back to your family and happy Thanksgiving.

1:12:20 Interviews: Thanksgiving. Thank you so much, Matt.

1:12:22 Clip: That's our show. Thank you so much for listening, and I hope that you enjoyed that half as much as I enjoyed talking to all these people who I admire so much. I really just... So many reminders here of the talent and the passion that I get to work with every day, and just how grateful I am to these people for being part of my life and part of professional work, and you know, everything we're able to do together. We did not get to talk to so many people that I wish we had, and just want to make sure that my shout-out Jennifer, Fatima, Jessica, Yudi talk, and anybody else, I hope I didn't miss anybody else. I don't think I did. And Corey, of course, my other law partner. Very important. I want to make sure I get everybody there. Appreciate you all. Can't do it without you. And yeah, that's our show. Please support the show if you like what you're hearing at patreon.com/law. And we'll be back with regular programming next week. But happy Thanksgiving week, everybody. Hope you're enjoying your leftovers today and onward. We'll see you soon.

1:13:23 Clip: This has been Opening Arguments, produced by Thomas and Lydia Smith, with editing help from Peter Baird. The intro is by Thomas Smith. This outro is by Matt Cameron. Support the show at patreon.com/law. Contact us through Patreon or openarguments@gmail.com. Make sure to follow our blue sky at OpenArgs. But most of all, please share the show. Thanks for listening.

1:13:57 Interviews: So it's been a whole ordeal setting this up. And my, yeah, my aunt and uncle and my mom and my brother are downstairs, like very silently eating their hors d'oeuvres. They're being very brave right now.

1:14:09 Matt: Well, we'll keep it quick, but