WTW99: The Biggest Attack on Free Speech in Our Lifetime and Hardly Anyone Cares

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:03 Clip: What's so scary about the woke mob? How often you just don't see them coming. Anywhere you see diversity, equity, and inclusion, you see Marxism and you see woke principles being pushed. Wokeness is a virus more dangerous than any pandemic hands down. The woke monster is here and it's coming for everything.

0:00:33 Clip: Instead of go-go boots, the seductress green M&M will now wear sneakers.

0:00:42 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Where There's Woke. This is episode 99. We're coming up on a big milestone of 103. Only four episodes to go. I'm Thomas. That's Lydia. How are you doing? Yeah, I don't understand. What's the problem? Yep. Mm hmm. Yeah, the normal numbers get boring. You know, after a certain point, you

0:00:46 Lydia: Oh, it's so close. Oh, I'm doing okay. It caught me off guard. So I was doing okay and now I'm going to sit here and think. Yes, 103. What all podcasts strive to hit. Yeah. I mean, you've been doing this longer than I have, so maybe that's real. Maybe that's true.

0:01:12 Thomas: Just want the weird ones.

0:01:12 Lydia: Yeah, yeah. Hey, how are you? Good.

0:01:15 Thomas: Oh well thanks for asking I'm doing doing pretty well doing pretty pretty well um excited to be finally getting these out we had these done way long ago embarrassingly long ago we've got even more bullshit today we

0:01:18 Lydia: Good. Yeah, we're going to Keep talking about some teachers in this episode. We're going to kick off with a law professor and then we're going to veer and go back to high school and then we're good.

0:01:40 Thomas: Oh I don't want to go back jesus just bring this on me here

0:01:42 Lydia: Yeah. Well, that's what happens with free speech. You mess with your free speech, you go from being a law Professor to going all the way back to High School. I'm pretty sure that's what happens and then were going to close out with what I think we both agree is maybe the most heartbreaking case of these and it's actually not a teacher at all. And I don't want to spoil anything because we're going to get into that in this episode, but we're gonna run the gamut, I guess, in this one.

0:02:04 Thomas: Let's run that gamut episode 99 the gamut all right after this break we'll get to it hey please support the show patreon .com slash where there's woke help get the word out on this kind of thing and share the show if you can share it with anyone anywhere talking about free speech anything that would be cool because these are actual free speech violations of the worst kind so thanks so much for listening we're going to take that quick break and then we'll be back with more free speech crisis

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0:02:33 Lydia: Speaking of lawyers, this next case I want to talk about is from what I've seen in coverage was probably the first law professor that was called out as part of this. This is Felicia Branch. She's a law professor out of the University of Arkansas. So this one, I'm not finding that there has been a lawsuit filed yet, but I could see that happening. So let me talk about sort of what we know so far and why I want to talk about it. From what I can tell, Felicia Branch served as the assistant clinical education professor at University of Arkansas, and she called Charlie Kirk, quote, an evil man on Facebook. And that was enough.

0:03:17 Thomas: So far so good oh my god that's it it.

0:03:19 Lydia: There were a few posts that she did, but that's really one of the big ones that was called out. Otherwise, it was, you know, there was a meme going around of like a cartoon of Ku Klux Klan members watching a cross burning and equating people mourning Charlie Kirk's death with that. And also, I guess she had commented that she She hoped he was, quote, restless in hell and that his death had made the world, quote a little more balanced. So there's little comments here and there, you know, kind of commenting within her own threads on Facebook. And she was suspended with pay on September 16th while they investigated these various posts. And of course, what prompted that is not that she made the posts, it's that somebody screenshotted them and shared them and they received complaints. In this initial letter that she was being fired for cause, they say that they were receiving complaints from students, parents and alumni, constitutional officers consisting of the governor, lieutenant governor, secretary of state and attorney general. So, again, Arkansas, we're talking about Sarah Huckabee Sanders, by the way, who's involved in this. Members of the Arkansas General Assembly, other government officials and concerned citizens that the complaints have caused serious disruption to the operation of the instructional and work environment at the School of Law at University of Arkansas.

0:04:41 Thomas: It's caused us to disrupt it

0:04:41 Lydia: And there's every reason and there's ever reason to believe that further disruptions will occur so long as you remain on the faculty.

0:04:48 Thomas: Because we will do them.

0:04:50 Lydia: He also asserts that the complains have called into question the effectiveness and the viability of the clinic that she oversees, the clinic that she was hired to direct, the low -income taxpayer clinic. Specifically, he says, a student enrolled in the legal clinic complained that they no longer feel comfortable attending the clinic under your instruction because of the social media posts that prompted the investigation.

0:05:10 Thomas: Oh, well, they can fuck up. You're not going to love every teacher, you know, sometimes. I mean, Lydia does, but there's some.

0:05:16 Lydia: And then here, you know, we have additional pressure from the government for the University of Arkansas to do something stated specifically in this letter by a dean of of a law school. Likewise, elected officials in Arkansas have stated in no uncertain terms that your social media posts are incompatible with the mission of the Bowen School of Law and of UA Little Rock. In addition, the secretary of the Department of Finance and Administration stated that your social post were inconsistent with professional standards needed to appear before tribunals like the Tax Appeals Commission. The same official stated that you were not welcome to participate in it.

0:05:47 Thomas: What? The first thing the Tax Appeals Commission checks is, well have you ever said anything about a sort of obscure podcaster who all of a sudden we all care about? That's the first question. Just fucking bullshitters.

0:05:59 Lydia: You know, I think what's so interesting here is like Like just explicitly stating we're getting pressure from the people who are in charge of the money for our school and for this school of law within the University of Arkansas are saying that you are not going to be invited here. Your reliability is going to being questioned here. That just feels to me like they're just putting on paper that the government is infringing on this person's free speech rights. Like that feels like just direct evidence, honestly. Yeah.

0:06:31 Thomas: Yeah. That's what I said before when it's like, we have to use the state to crush your freedom of speech rights because someone else from the state said we should.

0:06:40 Lydia: He admonishes the way that she has responded to these concerns and these discussions. I therefore was disappointed that you did not address these standards in our meeting today. While I appreciate that you sent me a follow -up email where you indicated that you believe you can be impartial despite your personal views of a person or a situation, your presentation and discussion today did not in any way address these concerns of professional conduct as a lawyer and law professor. In our meeting, you repeatedly returned to your personal views of Charlie Kirk. However, free expression must be balanced against standards of appropriate professional behavior. In short, while the university values academic freedom, this principle is not unbounded. Yeah, yeah. Your conduct was contrary to the professional expectations expected by the Board of Trustees and university administration. Effective immediately, you are dismissed for cause from your position at UA Little Rock. So crazy.

0:07:17 Thomas: It also doesn't. I can't stop hearing that. It's you, A Little Rock. Yeah, oh

0:07:33 Lydia: Like you are a Little Rock? Yeah. Yeah. Now, she had remedies here. She was able to seek review of the dismissal within five business days of the date of this notice. She did. And wouldn't you know it, it did not work out in her favor. So this is from Christina S. Drale, the chancellor at University of Arkansas Little Rock. Having reviewed the record and applicable policies, I've decided for the following reasons to uphold the dean's decision to dismiss you for cause. Your social media posts cause significant disruption to the efficient operation of the Bowen School of Law, and your actions constituted a serious violation of the professional standards. In your statement regarding your suspension, your argument appears to center on two arguments. You were speaking as a private citizen, not as a representative of a public institution. Yeah? Yeah? And your post did not cause a disruption because the direct response to your social media posts were relatively low. Your claim is that third parties caused the disruption. I think that's fair,

0:08:16 Thomas: That's a pretty good one. Yeah. Good argument. Okay.

0:08:26 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. I've been waiting for the response here.

0:08:29 Lydia: Especially because we're talking about a law professor kind of like trying to assert her rights. Yeah. I'm not persuaded by the argument that low volume traffic on your personal social media accounts, initial complaints by high profile government officials in response to your social media posts, or even the existence of some positive feedback negate the overall disruptive effect of your statements. The statements themselves produce the disruption, which included reactions through multiple channels and multiple audiences to your messages.

0:08:31 Thomas: Yeah but in response, nuh -uh. No, legally that's gonna not hold up. I'm just gonna say I'm not an expert but there's no way.

0:09:03 Lydia: Nor am I persuaded that speech by a faculty member outside outside of the classroom or clinic is unrelated to the standards of professional conduct expected of law professors at the Bowen School of Law.

0:09:12 Thomas: I mean, I don't know if it's unrelated but we have very clear legal standard. Is it private comment on a matter of public concern? Because then, yeah, Yeah. Go fuck yourself. It's, it is unrelated.

0:09:22 Lydia: Yeah, it's like it's just so clear. I can't believe that like that these people are putting these words on paper.

0:09:29 Thomas: Yeah. Wait, was this personal a lot? Anything? Okay.

0:09:31 Lydia: This person is a chancellor, so I don't I don't know their academic background, but they are in administration.

0:09:37 Thomas: I don't know what that is. Uh, it reminds me of like some Star Wars shit. Like they're, they're an alien.

0:09:42 Lydia: Yeah. In the final analysis, I cannot see a pathway where you could remain in your position at the Bowen Law School without compromising the trust and confidence of your students and colleagues, thereby continuing to disrupt the effective and efficient delivery of legal education at this institution. Therefore, I am upholding the decision to dismiss you for cause from your non -tenure track position.

0:09:46 Thomas: Because I'm not going to do one. I love the stupid, nothing corporate. Like how do we justify the thing we're going to Do? Well, just say just by, by itself.

0:10:13 Lydia: Yeah, I hope that she continues to fight back. But like you You said, yeah. So this is through the ABAjournal.com where they're covering law news. And this was written about just 10 days ago, October 21st. Law professor, well, law prof is what they say.

0:10:18 Thomas: Wait how'd you find out about this if it wasn't because we we did some docket searching

0:10:35 Lydia: Law prof fired for online comments after Charlie Kirk's death that led to torrent of complaints and quotes. And they speak about it and then just link to the letters that she received and some, you know, local coverage. But that's basically it that we've seen specific to this one. So we'll see. Maybe she'll file lawsuit. Hopefully she fights back because I feel like this is absolutely ridiculous.

0:10:35 Thomas: Oh yeah, it's different wow yeah at least it's getting some coverage

0:11:01 Lydia: Yeah. Now I have kind of like a grand finale one that's really, really depressing. But before we get to that, I want to turn it over to you because I know that you stumbled on another case that really kind of tugged on your heartstrings, too, and see what we have going on there.

0:11:15 Thomas: So this one isn't from the fire.org so I assume your last one must be the fire dot org right it has to be then when we're getting to it because I mean naturally the free speech organization premier free speech organization would definitely be talking about this would be whatever so I came across this one just like on this is actually the one I came across that really made me want to like do this because this is the splc is defending this person which is very important because again resources it's really nice to have organizations like not the fucking fire but other organizations with actual um integrity who care about not just freedom of speech but that's the other thing is the fire .org just does free speech the splc the aclu they do lots of

0:11:20 Lydia: We'll see, we'll se. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Right. Right. Right. Yeah.

0:12:04 Thomas: Stuff and yet they're on these free speech ones and the fire dot org missing in action as you heard lydia say at free thought day they might have made a couple statements maybe but that's it

0:12:16 Lydia: I mean, maybe send a letter to a school. Yeah, mm

0:12:18 Thomas: Keep in mind how they launched their fucking legal defense fund for fucking jason kilbourne and the nothing that his was the the fraudulent fucking claims about free speech that he made. Unbelievable. Anyway, this is a high school teacher in Georgia, and we're just going to go by her complaint. And here's the thing. Usually I'd tell you, you know, this ist just a person's complaint. The plaintiff can say whatever they want. But like in all these, they've just been what it is. Their complaint is literally just they told me they were exactly doing this and they admit they were doing it and they can't do that? And then a judge is like, yeah. So there's not really a bias that we need to worry about all that much. There's not a skewed version of the facts we're going to get.

0:13:08 Thomas: It's pretty much all there, right in the open. They just do it right inthe open. Michelle Mickens has been a public educator in Georgia with an unblemished record for more than 20 years. During that time, she has served her students and strengthened public education. In 2022, she was a statewide finalist for Georgia Teacher of the Year. But in September 2025, she was placed on indefinite leave and urged to resign for engaging in private, out -of -the -workplace speech on her personal social media account on matters of public concern. Does that sound familiar? We heard that language before?

0:13:36 Lydia: Over and over and over.

0:13:37 Thomas: I mean, it's probably because it's the legal standard, but yeah, it is also what happened every time. Her speech did not harm her employer or disrupt her workplace. Therefore, the district's actions in retaliation for that speech violated the First Amendment. So, what did she actually say. Let's go. Yeah. Also, like I said, are we going to get anyone who even made it worth it? You know, there's a thing like in hockey sometimes when dudes get a penalty, sometimes they're like, well, I should have made it work. Like they should actually fought a guy or something like that. They get called for something they don't view as like actually even a penalty. Like it was just like nothing. They're like man, I'm I should've actually like hurt somebody. You know that's kind of the attitude. Not mine at my attitude, but like I don't really do that. But like the the people who want to get penalties and get in fights and stuff. And I sort of feel like that here, though. Like, yeah, somebody could have said something at least worth it.

0:14:25 Thomas: A little harsher than the total, like, saintly stuff we've read so far. So let's see. I can read this pretty short narrative here. After the assassination of political commentator Charlie, oh, shit.

0:14:25 Lydia: Come on. Yeah mm -hm.

0:14:39 Thomas: No, I'm just kidding. Ms. Mickens posted a quote from him on her personal Facebook page and participated in an online discussion with her Facebook friends who commented on the post. In this back and forth, she responded to a friend's comments on that post with her own words, which were critical of Kirk, but also condemned political violence. Ms. Mickens' comments were made after work on a private account that she does not share with students or coworkers. Her post did not mention her employer, her school, or her students, which makes it all the more eerie that these all get back to the people. Like that, that's, oh man, talk about 1984, talk about Orwell, you know, it's like, it must've been the fucking camera in her, you know, whatever it's, it't's, it's tattletales. It's a, it's this, but not really. It's this network of tattltales that are all part of the fascism and it breeds that atmosphere of distrust. You know, I can't remember what I talked about this on. I think it was this show. Yeah, no, it was actually, no. It was the Kilborn ones. I think it was maybe like one of the last Kilborn episodes when I talked about the the teacher, because of the basically don't say gay bill, I think

0:15:19 Lydia: Zuckerberg, just yeah mm -huh. Mm -hmm. Right.

0:15:46 Thomas: It was. And to their credit, this was covered in one of the papers, Washington Post, New York Times, I don't remember which, at that time. And it was talking about how because of ever the outcry over these books and a student complaining, a teacher was told they couldn't teach with this book anymore, like a certain book. And just this feeling, it was really sad. It was really bad. This feeling of like, I do not know who I can trust. I do know which student tattled on me. I don not know which student has it out for me are they all lying to me like I don't it's you know like this awful distrust it's just the opposite of what you would want at a school for one at a high school but this feeling that like any one of these little shits could be a fascist in training you know but in this case it says an out -of -state former high school classmate oh classmate okay took a screenshot of her post that criticized kirk and then circulated it online god

0:16:37 Lydia: It's the internet. It is the freaking internet.

0:16:37 Thomas: Fucking assholes, where it was ultimately shared with her employer. But that's somebody who knew her, you know? The post neither disrupted her school nor created a controversy within her workplace. The decision to remove Ms. Mickens, spoiler, from her classroom has been the only disruption to the school's operation, also familiar. Still, defendants have placed her on indefinite paid suspension pending termination of her employment because of her constitutionally protected speech, and though they have provided no notice of charges, made clear that they intend to terminate her. So that's, that's overall basics, but there were some details in this one that stuck out to me that I wanted to read. It's the reason I picked it out. By the way, not that this should matter, but like plaintiff Michelle Mickens is a tenured high school English teacher.

0:16:42 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Mm -hm, mm -hm.

0:17:21 Thomas: It'S like, I don't know that legally that matters, although I guess it could. So it's, they're not just even doing this to the most sort of vulnerable teachers. This is a 10 year old, two decades of classroom room experience teacher. I love it too. In 2022, her outstanding work in the classroom was recognized statewide when she was named a finalist and runner -up for Georgia Teacher of the Year. It's unreal.

0:17:49 Lydia: Yeah, like she is one of your best.

0:17:51 Thomas: You don't need to be a perfect victim, but this is a perfect victim. It doesn't hurt, I guess, to be a perfect victim.

0:17:57 Lydia: Smart.

0:17:58 Thomas: Just for what it's worth, Ms. Mickens has two Facebook accounts, one public account for professional employment activities, and another private account for her personal life. The latter That her account does not include any students or parents or school employees except for a few close friends.

0:18:12 Lydia: It was a smart move, but apparently it doesn't even matter. What?

0:18:13 Thomas: On Wednesday, September 10th, 2025, political figure Charlie Kirk was assassinated.

0:18:20 Lydia: What?

0:18:22 Thomas: Holy shit.

0:18:22 Lydia: You serious?

0:18:25 Thomas: And here we go. After work hours and while at home, Ms. Mickens shared a personal post with her friends on her private fucking Facebook account.

0:18:34 Lydia: They're friends and one snitch.

0:18:34 Thomas: Doesn't say. Yeah, fuck. People used to be their friend. Yeah. Using her personal computer, not her work computer. I like that detail. Do teachers even get a work laptop? Probably not. Who knows? The post was a direct quote from Charlie Kirk, which read, I think it's worth it. I think It's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God -given rights. Charlie Kirk.

0:18:59 Lydia: Like if you don't want that to be your legacy, if people are saying like, how dare you post a quote, take it up with Charlie Kirk then. Like, why are you taking it up? Yeah, why aren't you taking up with people who are literally just posting a quote? Like they just went to quotable .com or whatever, grabbed a little quote in the same way that you would do with Mark Twain or Gandhi and they post it on their Facebook and if you have a problem with that take it up with Charlie Kirk once you die yeah

0:19:07 Thomas: In hell. Yeah. Yeah. Gandhi. No.

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0:19:31 Thomas: Ms. Mickens offered no commentary when posting the quote. The post did not mention her school, employer, students, or any school personnel. Her privacy settings restricted the post to friends only. The comment sparked a discussion between Ms. Mickens and several friends, some of whom disagreed with her sharing the quote, which led Ms. Wickens to respond later that evening to a Facebook friend stating, and this is, here we go, this is where it gets fireable, right? Yeah, you took this way too far. You make a lot of horrible assumptions here, but that says more about you than it does about me. I don't condone violence of any kind, and I certainly don't condemn this, but he was a horrible person, a fascist full of hate for anyone who is different. While I'm sad that we live in a country where gun violence is an epidemic, the world is a bit safer without him. I didn't respect him at all, and he's part of the hatred and vitriolic language we hear so much now. I pray that without him, people can be kinder and more tolerant to one another.

0:20:22 Lydia: How dare you how dare are you post that like really god and I imagine we don't see all the back and forth comments here you know what that discussion was but the way that this starts out with yeah you took this way too far you make a lot of horrible assumptions here we have no idea like exactly what this person is

0:20:25 Thomas: I'm surprised they didn't execute her on the spot.

0:20:41 Lydia: Saying and and this is as like as tough as she gets like in response to someone apparently making a lot of horrible assumptions about her or about her position this is someone who appears to be incredibly patient incredibly kind incredibly understanding incredibly able to have like a nuanced conversation very open to dialogue even even though if you disagree, just unbelievable. Anyway.

0:21:05 Thomas: They didn't call it like a lover's quarrel, you know, like they did with the Pelosi thing. You know, it was, well, I guess it was Charlie Kirk's boyfriend, angry boyfriend that shot him over just a domestic dispute and troll the dead person. Again, I still don't think that's not even like equal things, but still. Now here's where the details come in about what happened. On Thursday, September 11th, and let's see who had the record for fastest thing. I think you had one that was one day or at least one.

0:21:14 Lydia: Gross. No. Yeah, I had one that seemed like it was, you know, eight hours. Wow.

0:21:38 Thomas: The next fucking day, yeah, you probably went on that one. Ms. Mickens was called to the office where Principal Bill Bill Sampson and defendant superintendent Levin, or Levine or Levene or whatever, however people pronounce that, it's different every time, informed her that a complaint had been received by the school from an unknown individual who on information and belief is not a student, parent, employee, or resident of the school district. So if it's that ex -classmate, then yeah, it's none of those things, probably. Sampston assured Ms. Mickens that she was not in trouble, but wanted to make her aware of the situation. Sumpston did not disclose the name of the complainant or the nature of the complaint. Later that evening, Ms. Mickens received a text from a friend in Chicago. The friend warned Ms. Wickens that a person named Michael Inikez, probably, had alluded to targeting Ms. Rickens on social media. Inikex is Ms. Rickens' former classmate from high school who lives in Chicago, he posted an article on social media about a South Carolina teacher who had been fired from her job and added a comment saying, quote, the Georgia bitch is next.

0:22:02 Lydia: It could be. Wow, that's scary.

0:22:43 Thomas: That's someone she went to high school with. On Friday, September 13th, Ms. Mickens was tagged in a post on ex -formerly Twitter and learned that Inikez had followed through on his threat. He had taken a screenshot of Ms. Wickens' Facebook post and shared it publicly. The Inike's post was subsequently reshared by another ex -account that goes by the name of Women Posting Ls. Both posts were accompanied by a call to action, urging others to contact Samson and demand Ms. Mickens' termination. The Post tagged Ms. Mickens named her employer and provided a phone number to the school's main line with a message to let Samson, quote, know what you think of letting someone like her teaching children. Yeah.

0:23:23 Lydia: Remember what that comment was. It was actually quite lovely.

0:23:27 Thomas: And it's just so it's hilarious that they had a grammar error in the very thing of like of letting Someone Like Her Teaching Children.

0:23:34 Lydia: Teaching children.

0:23:36 Thomas: The Post also provided Samson's direct email address. God. Oh, yeah, I think so. The bitter high school rival that sucked at English, I guess.

0:23:39 Lydia: Oh isn't she an english teacher too yeah good

0:23:46 Thomas: Fucking fascists. Now, upon seeing this, so this is already after the first one that was like more vague when they're like, oh, somebody somewhere said something. Upon seeing this Ms. Mickens promptly contacted Samson and requested a meeting to address the situation. Shortly after that, but before lunch, Ms. Mickens met with Samson. Defendant Levin, who works on the same campus in a nearby building, attended the meeting as well. All. The meeting was cordial, even lighthearted at times. There was no discussion or insinuation that Ms. Mickens would be disciplined. I like this. I, I like this part. At some point during the meeting, defendant Levin and Sampson stated that Ms., Mickens should delete her Facebook post. She declined and explained that she would like to consult an attorney before removing the post.

0:24:29 Thomas: Yep. Fucking A. SampSON and defendant Levin then suggested instead that she should issue an apology or clarify that her wording was inappropriate. Ms. Mickens reiterated that she would need to consult her attorney before making any such public statement.

0:24:44 Thomas: So good. Ms., Mickens stayed in the front office for approximately two hours. During six period, defendant Levin and Sampson decided to send Ms. Wickens home early. They promised to update Ms. Rickens upon her return. This was the last day Ms. Mackens was in her classroom.

0:24:43 Lydia: For her again good for

0:25:00 Thomas: Crazy. Oh, I like this. On information belief, the district has no social media policy for teachers' off -campus social media activity. And Ms. Mickens' Facebook posts did not violate any state, district, or school rules or policies. Between her initial post on September 11th and leaving school on September 13th, Ms. Dickens continued to perform her teaching and other job duties as normal. No student or teacher discussed the post with her. Her comment did not disrupt her workplace. Now, just a little bit more here to get to some of these details that really stuck out to me. On Sunday, September 14th, Defendant Levin texted Ms. Mickens and asked her to remain home, but to send lesson plans for Monday and Tuesday of that week. Ms. Wickens did so.

0:25:41 Thomas: The following Tuesday, September 16th, Ms. Mickens learned that her access to school emails and power school had been terminated.

0:25:47 Lydia: That is shocking that seems like a big move wow

0:25:49 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Ms. Mickens is a member of the Georgia Association of Educators. Oh, that's one of the shitty unions instead of... What's his name? Instead of Ryan Walters Union. So, too bad. Yeah, if she'd been in Ryan Walter's union, I'm sure. She would have gotten even

0:25:59 Lydia: Oh yeah, instead of Ryan Walters like premiere yeah yeah yeah

0:26:07 Thomas: More rights and help. On September 22nd, through her GAE representative, Ms. Mickens was informed through the district attorney that her continuing to post on social media was, quote, troubling and stated that it would be, quote, harder to get her back in the classroom if she continued to engage in any social media activities. The district did not provide Ms. Wickens with any specific information about what posts it found troubling. I don't know.

0:26:31 Lydia: Like what do you think she was positive like was she saying like f this f that I hate working for my like my employer Yeah. Yeah.

0:26:36 Thomas: The fact that they didn't provide any could be nothing. It could be just that she refused to take stuff down.

0:26:41 Lydia: And here's the other piece of it, too, because she said that she had two Facebooks. She had the public one where she, like, you know, engaged more with her teaching profile and coworkers and staff and students. And then she had her private one that I would assume, especially after something like this, is even more locked down than normal. So there's no way that they would see her private Facebook. Yeah. It must mean that it's just that she refused to take it down.

0:27:05 Thomas: Or she talked to her lawyer and the lawyer was like, yeah, you're allowed to do this. I don't know, you know, we'll see. But the fact that I didn't cite anything, it kind of tells me that it's it really feels like it's them trying to do the like, sure, it would be a shame if somebody didn't take down their Facebook posts, you know, kind of thing. On Sunday, September 29th, Ms. Mickens was informed through her GAE representative that the district did not want her to return to teaching and that she would be terminated if she did not voluntarily resign. That's through the union rep.

0:27:37 Thomas: Not sure how much this matters, but while Ms. Dickens has been on leave, other district employees who express pro -Charlie Kirk views were not disciplined for their expressive conduct. For example, several teachers have posted photos on social media wearing pro -Kirk t -shirts at school. Wow. Crazy.

0:27:51 Lydia: That seems ridiculous. How is that not clothing disruptive to an academic environment? Like the same thing that you would say for T -shirts that might might have offensive language on them or something like that. Like this seems. Yeah, this it's the same things. It's it's disruptive to academic environment.

0:27:55 Thomas: They're wearing pro -Kirk t -shirts at school. Yeah.

0:28:04 Thomas: They're just like a Trump t -shirt. I mean, it's the same thing.

0:28:10 Thomas: I don't think the high school teachers should wear Biden t -shirts or whoever, you know, like I think that's something we should all agree with. I, I don' t actually think that' s good.

0:28:17 Lydia: Where are your shapes? Where are you? Florals? Where your patterns?

0:28:20 Thomas: I do think that it might be fine for, and I don't know, something we can talk about another time, but this has made me think about a little bit about like, oh, okay, what are these actual, because it's been so much bullshit that I've never had to really think about these things because it is usually just like, like, oh, none of the story is true. So kind of end my analysis there. Sort of like when the Supreme Court dismisses something on standing. It's like, I don't even really need to get to any of that because it's all lies.

0:28:22 Lydia: Where are your solids? Mm hmm.

0:28:49 Thomas: But I feel like teachers should be able to express like general positive, empathetic, compassionate messaging, you know, maybe like pro -LGBT stuff, pro -tolerance stuff. And I think it's a real shame that likely we're to a point where that will be seen as political, you know?

0:28:49 Lydia: Yeah,

0:29:05 Thomas: And so it's like, I just already was kind of anticipating like, oh, no, no political stuff, huh? Well, what about this pride flag? And it's like, well, that's just a compassionate message that in my book should go down as something they can definitely do, whereas supporting like a specific candidate or a specific fucking conservative podcaster seems weird to me.

0:29:05 Lydia: Mm hmm.

0:29:26 Thomas: Then they sent notice to her students that a different teacher would be teaching them, you Know, so that's consistent with the idea that they're getting rid of her. October 14th. So now we're, yeah, we are weeks later. The board met and on information belief hired that replacement teacher as a Ms. Mickens apparent replacement, though Ms. Rickens has not yet been terminated.

0:29:47 Thomas: So they're keeping her in this weird limbo, even though it's, it seems very clear, like they're replacing her and they said, you need to resign or we're firing you. Um, I think that was maybe a bit of a bluff, like to get, you know, cause I'm sure it would have been easier for them if she just resigned. Although I don't know.

0:30:02 Lydia: Yeah. No, I imagine it would be.

0:30:04 Thomas: To date While Ms. Mickens fears further retaliatory acts, she has not removed the Facebook post, but she has changed the visibility settings so that only she can view the post and its comments, which is, I mean, you wouldn't want to delete it at this point because it's evidence. And we're basically done here. But the last few paragraphs, the district's actions have described above have caused significant emotional, reputational, and professional harm to Ms. Mickens. Teaching has been her lifelong vocation, and the loss of her position has deeply affected her sense of purpose and stability. She now faces uncertainty regarding future employment opportunities, particularly given the circumstances of her termination. Most, if not all, school systems employment applications require disclosure of an educator's termination or resignation. Ms.

0:30:47 Lydia: Man.

0:30:47 Thomas: Bickens regularly comments on current political events, including her views on reducing gun violence, and would like to do so in the future. However, she has been afraid to doso since September 13th because she fears that it may subject her to further punishment or termination by her employer. Defendants' actions have created a constructive prior restraint as their treatment of Ms. Mickens sent a clear and chilling message to her and other employees that speech critical of or inconsistent with the district's preferred viewpoints would result in punishment or career consequences. This unlawful chilling effect has discouraged Ms. Wickens from engaging in future protected speech that she wishes to make presently.

0:31:25 Thomas: Yeah, and the rest, now we get to claims for relief. I can kind of skip through that. Count one, violation of First Amendment retaliation. Count two, violation of First amendment, 14th amendment viewpoint, discrimination, prior restraint. Now there's no specific count that goes along with like some of that stuff that sounded a little bit like emotional distress and that kind of thing. Cause I'm just hoping for damages or something, but there is just toward the bottom. One of the prayers for relief is award Ms. Mickens nominal presumed and actual damages, including compensation for lost wages and benefits, emotional distress, reputational harm, and and other damages approximately caused by defendants' unlawful actions. And award Ms. Mickens the cost of this action, including reasonable attorney's fees and litigation expenses pursuant to 42 U .S .C. 98 and any other applicable law.

0:32:09 Lydia: Yeah that feels like it's a little more on the offense than some of the other ones that we've read as of right now. Right like most of them are are just like, hey, I just want my job back. And he sort of back pay, you know, if they had filed a lawsuit at all. But it seems like she's being a little more proactive in kind of getting the additional stuff that she's probably owed as well.

0:32:30 Thomas: Totally. And I am wishing her all the luck in the world. This seems well -written to me. This is, again, this is the SPLC helping out here. So that's where it is and nothing else on the docket so far. So in a way, that's even more of a bummer because, like, well, her life is on pause. She has no job. Job she's having to incur massive expenses oh well she would be if hopefully the splc is basically covering it but I don't know the details of that but hopefully but that's what's going on her life is on hold and there's not even a reply on the docket yet like this is just this process takes forever all of this is illegal they're doing illegal things they are shutting down free speech illegally and it's not Even a close argument and they're Doing it anyway they don't care about the law this is so much worse than any than even the worst like version if it were true of what they said the woke were doing before it's it's way worse like none of the examples that we again they were all fake but like even if they were real none of them were even close to this bad this is horrible this is poor teacher

0:33:32 Lydia: Yeah, and far reaching. Yeah?

0:33:35 Thomas: A runner -up for teacher of the fucking year and it's just been in their 20 years, tenured, posted nothing, goddamn nothing. I'm disappointed actually. None of them were like, yeah, fuck that guy. You know, make it worth it. You know, check someone in the boards. Nope. Didn't even do that.

0:33:53 Lydia: Yeah throw some elbows. Mm.

0:33:54 Thomas: And the stuff about like what caught my eye on this one, especially was the stuff where they're like, oh man, going to be tough to reinstate. Yeah. Going to be just, it was really creepy. Just that whole, like, well, you better delete it. And then, you you know, she wanted to lawyer up and they're like, oh, it's going to be hard to bring you back. Yeah.

0:34:13 Thomas: Not sure I can do like, it'S just, it' s just so fucking gross.

0:34:16 Lydia: One then like everything kind of happening behind the scenes and like being so shady about it too like oh this person is your sub you know put together some lesson plans for them and she complied with that and sending it to them and then being like oh okay well now that person's your replacement

0:34:30 Thomas: Yeah. And she has to comply because she can't give them any justification. Yeah, I'm sure she was already lawyered up at that point and maybe or just did it. I don't know. You know, and I say that it could be she just cares about her students and really wanted them to continue on the lesson plan. Sorry, that really could be it.

0:34:45 Lydia: And it could be that she's like well this is bound to blow over at some point you know like what's two days worth of lesson plans you know and then it's here we are end of October and and her case is far from being over, it seems. So, yeah.

0:34:58 Thomas: Yeah., just an absolute bummer. But in the end, though, it's not as bad as having to take a single seminar for putting well not even for the thing that was in the test for threatening students and harassing them like uh kilroy killed killed basa kilbourne did god I can't with the name I don't know why blank every single time I'm not doing a bit I I promise I wish I weren't this dumb we

0:35:14 Lydia: Born the kielbasa. That's so funny. Yeah, thank

0:35:33 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:35:33 Thomas: Saved the really the the best for last and I well I don' best but like probably the most horrifying example I think for last uh and this one really really got us so um I guess I'll hand it back to you I'm doing one sixth of the work here but we uh we get equal pay yeah you wanted it landscape

0:35:49 Lydia: You. Yeah, that's feminism. All right. So this case is out of Alabama. This is affiliated with Auburn University. I'm just going to start reading off with the complaint. Kevin Courtright worked as a landscape supervisor at Auburn University. His job involved trimming bushes and cutting grass along with small crews of landscape employees.

0:36:12 Thomas: Supervisor along with educating the future hearts and minds of the country this is not to diminish at all a landscaper I want to be very But this is like a joke I would come up with if it was like the ultimate ridiculous amount of retaliation against someone in a university. I mean, this is this is not even they wouldn't even have thought, actually, the assholes with their anti -woke scare stories. They wouldn't have even dreamed up this example.

0:36:25 Lydia: No, no. Important job. Yep.

0:36:45 Thomas: They wouldn'T have even dreamt it up. Right.

0:36:45 Lydia: Well, and this is also another thing where like FIRE won't care about this person at all just because they are not a professor. They are not a professor, they are not a student, so they are NOT worth free speech protection from FIRE's, you know, mission statement, essentially. And, you know, I get everyone is spread thin, whatever. But this story, I mean, it's just how far reaching this thing is. It's not just professors under FIRE. It is not just people with, like, high up academic leadership positions that are being called into question or high school teachers and people interacting with kids. This is someone who, quote, his job involved trimming bushes and cutting grass. And he's not allowed to speak his mind on Facebook, apparently.

0:37:29 Thomas: Unreal. Yeah.

0:37:30 Lydia: What we learn from this lawsuit is that what he posted is something that the leaders at Auburn University had a problem with, of course. They say within this introduction paragraph, some of Kevin's comments were insensitive, offensive, and inflammatory. But that means they were exactly the type of speech the First Amendment protects. Through this lawsuit, Kevin seeks redress for the wrongful termination of his employment in violation of the First amendment of the United States Constitution. So what exactly happened here? Let's get into that. He's paid hourly as a landscape supervisor. He has been working for Auburn University for several years. It says, you know, alongside his crew, he cut grass, trimmed shrubs, applied chemicals and fertilizers, repaired irrigation, planted plants, laid sod, and performed other general landscape manual labor duties. He was the lowest level supervisor in his department, reported directly to the landscape manager who who reported to the Director of Landscape Services. I won't go through the whole thing, but we're talking about facilities management and that entire structure there within a university system. His wife is also an employee at Auburn. She's an Administrative Support Specialist II of Academics. And this is important because of kind of how this story will play out. So just keep that in mind.

0:38:43 Thomas: Even fucking creepier than you imagine.

0:38:45 Lydia: The complaint goes on to talk about one of Charlie Kirk's quotes. Charlie Kirk's quotes regarding the Second Amendment right. And unfortunately, you know, we might need some gun deaths to preserve it, etc.

0:39:00 Thomas: You can't quote the guy himself. That's, they should know.

0:39:05 Lydia: Yeah. This in particular, they're highlighting because Kevin Courtright has a connection with gun violence on school campuses. He said plaintiff understood the statement to mean that in order to protect the Second Amendment, we have to accept gun violence and in particular the ever increasing deaths of children in mass shootings, which plaintiff strongly disagreed with, especially given a difficult incident from his own past. In 2014, a high school student intent on shooting up a high school attended by Plaintiff's son in Missouri was chased by police to a lot adjacent to the college campus where Plaintive worked as a landscaping foreman. The police cornered the gunman who reacted by shooting himself in the head, splattering brain matter in or beside the university parking lot. When the police finished their work at the scene, Plaintiffe's manager instructed Plaintif to clean up the splattered human remains with a hose, which Plaintife did, leaving an unshakable horrific impression on him. Mr. Kirk had also made statements about gay and trans people, which plaintiff found offensive. Plaintiff, an ordained minister, strongly disagreed with Mr. Kirk's statement that stoning gay people to death was, quote, God's perfect law when it comes to sexual matters, as well as with Mr Kirk's sentiment that, quote. We need to have a Nuremberg style trial for every gender affirming clinic doctor. We needed immediately. Pl plaintiff holds strong belief that African -Americans and women should have an equal right to advance in society. And african -americans and women we've talked about some of this stuff in certain spaces but quote if I see a black pilot I'm going to be like boy I hope he's qualified quote happening all the time in urban america prowling blacks go around for fun to go target white people that's a fact it's happening more and more quote if I'm dealing with somebody in customer service who's a moronic black woman I wonder is she there because of her excellence or is she There because of affirmative action and it goes on after work on september 10th when plaintiff got home around 6 p

0:41:07 Lydia: .m plaintiff joined the raging commentary on the death of charlie kirk a matter of public concern and reposted the following on his facebook page which addressed what he knew to be a matter of public concerned and so repost it so charlie Kirk was shot and killed at one of his events the man who said that school shootings were just something worth living with in order to keep the second amendment who leaned into every single culture war issue to push hate and division and who was making absurd claims about trans people being mass shooters at the time he was redacted is likely going to be used for some justification to crack down on something by this regime regime but hell no matter what they were going to find a reason tots and pears I doubt kirk even believed half the shit he was peddling but there was money to be made and influence to be wielded so he ran with it anyway these are about the nicest things I can say about the situation at this time

0:41:39 Thomas: Sorry. That was the repost or that was him. Okay.

0:41:40 Lydia: That was the repost yeah and then he added his own commentary when he reposted it he said one fascist down a whole socio-political movement to go fafo nazi trash

0:41:50 Thomas: Yeah. So that's like the worst of all the ones that we've covered in quotes. I mean, uh, yeah, that's, that's, uh that's alarming, right?

0:41:57 Lydia: I would say he says as a whole sociopolitical movement to go, not like the people of that movement. I think that's a reasonable interpretation of that.

0:42:06 Thomas: I agree.

0:42:07 Lydia: That same day, plaintiff reposted other posts, including the following, which showed plaintiff's stance against gun violence, the horrific killing of Charlie Kirk, and that he did not condone his murder. Quote, no one should be shot, Charlie Kirk included, but let's be real, Republican leaders crying crocodile tears about gun violence while blocking every piece of gun reform are the reason it keeps happening. Doing nothing is a choice they have Quote, that horrific footage is the same thing that happens to children at school, by the way. Quote Charlie Kirk is no more important than the hundreds of school age children shot and killed at school. Guns are the problem. And it goes on. So he was greatly affected by this. As I mentioned, he experienced something very traumatic, very damaging in his line of work years ago. And I don't blame him for having a reaction when he's seeing gun violence like this and trying to point out hypocrisy.

0:42:55 Thomas: Not that you need an origin story for Chex Notes being against gun fucking violence and shootings in schools, but that's a powerful one.

0:43:04 Lydia: Yeah. So after he posted a number of these things, he went back to work the next day, continued his work, all of his, you know, trimming bushes, mowing grass, doing all that stuff, you know. And according to him, kept his political opinions about Charlie Kirk and his disagreement with the political movement to himself at work.

0:43:13 Thomas: As a landscaper. Yeah, indoctrinating kids, you know, he'd

0:43:26 Lydia: September 15th, two men from Compliance and Security approached his wife, not him, his wife Kim Courtright, and questioned her about her husband. They wanted to hear from her if she believed that her husband would be a threat to people on campus. They said that a student had filed a concern about her husband's Facebook post, and they questioned her about what he would do if he came upon a tabling event for Turning Point USA. Kim Courtright said that her husband would do nothing. She assured them that there was nothing to be concerned about because he was a good man. Hey, ordained minister, you know, probably unlikely to be doing anything crazy. They asked her, has your husband's behavior recently changed?

0:43:57 Thomas: Shoot Charlie Kirk all over again. Yeah. What the fuck are you talking about? Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. Do you have the right person? It's probably what you thought. No,

0:44:14 Lydia: Trying to identify, you know, could there be anything going on that this person is a threat to this campus? Minutes after they had approached his wife, he was called to the facility's human resources office to talk with an individual from the security and compliance office, where it was shared with him that there was a complaint about a Facebook post he had made. And he was questioned if there was any violent intent with the post. The plaintiff assured the compliance and security officer that he had no violent intent with his post. The next day, he had to go meet with the director of facilities human resources and explain to her as well that there was a misunderstanding about the intent of his Facebook post. He asked the director of human resources for facilities directly, am I going to be fired? And the H .R. director told Kevin Courtright that Auburn tends not to move drastically, and she was inclined to think he would not be fired, but there was a chance.

0:45:12 Lydia: Based on a conversation that he had with the security and compliance office, he took down his Facebook post and locked down his FaceBook to make it as private as possible, followed the instructions of that office.

0:45:21 Thomas: I know it's minor, but this is just an example of privilege where it's like. Like my example and we're cheering on my previous example knows to be able to say, hey, it's sort of like, you know, the things that white people feel entitled to do around cops is so much different than than black people. You know, that's like a white privilege thing that like is just is just wildly different. The first time maybe as a white person, I was kind of made aware like, oh, people of color need to be way more scared around cops than than I would ever be. It's sort of like that in a similar way where it's like this guy was like, he's a fucking landscape. I don't know the race of this person or anything

0:45:34 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. When you have the privilege, fight back. Oh, yeah.

0:46:03 Thomas: Necessarily, but just saying like in terms of socioeconomic status, just alone.

0:46:07 Lydia: Paid hourly. Like that's an indication.

0:46:08 Thomas: Yeah. Paid hourly. Just just that lack of privilege, you know, and it's nothing. This is not saying, again, nothing bad about the person with privilege that we talked about. This is just an example of of how that's an advantage. And this person, their speech, their rights literally mean less, even though that teacher's rights, you You know, my teacher's rights that I talked about also mean nothing, apparently. But this person's rights mean even less because of their lack of privilege, because their job is under threat. And they're like, shit, better delete my fucking free speech immediately.

0:46:37 Lydia: Yeah, exactly. And then the next day he was called into a conference room to meet with folks and was informed that he had violated Auburn University Code 8 .3 .3, which was a group one offense. We'll talk about that in a second. Placed him on administrative leave and then said, you know, you may speak now, I guess. And he expressed again that what his political beliefs are, his disagreement of the rhetoric of Charlie Kirk, that he was not a threat to anyone. And at the end of this meeting, they told him to turn his keys and his phone.

0:47:01 Thomas: Turn in your fucking pruning shears and your garden hose. It's just ridiculous.

0:47:17 Lydia: He received word a few days after that official notice that he was terminated and the next day received the certified letter quoting exactly what he did wrong so here we

0:47:28 Thomas: Hmm. OK, let's find out. Killed a guy.

0:47:32 Lydia: Go uh the auburn university employee relations policy 8 .3 .3 includes a few different things intimidating or intentionally imposing on the rights and privileges of other employees okay I don't think he did that engaging in grossly offensive obscene or immoral conduct okay that would be kind of a stretch or any actions deemed by the university as constituting major misconduct the letter went on to say after a thorough review of all relevant information it has been determined that your actions are in direct violation of auburn university's personnel policies and procedures group one offenses group one violations include conduct regarded as major misconduct behavior that is grossly offensive or immoral and a gross disregard of obligations to the university.

0:48:15 Thomas: Hmm. I don't know legally how any of this would work, especially with, again, we're talking not tenured professor. We're talking hourly wage worker. I don't know how that works. I would assume if this is, again, a state school that like you still you have free speech rights, even as a fucking landscaper, I would I would hope. But, yeah, I mean, I guess if they can use catch all language to be like, yeah. There's unbecoming of a landscaper whenever the fuck they want to say.

0:48:44 Lydia: So they push back on this within the complaint. They say, however ill-considered defendant perceived plaintiff's comments to be, his comments did not render him unfit for his job as a landscape supervisor and that his speech was not threatening. If a university student had truly complained about plaintiff Facebook posts, plaintiff had no position of control or undue influence over that student's education. Rather, plaintiffs simply tended to the beautification of the campus by cutting the shrubs and the grass.

0:49:09 Thomas: I mean he was going to fuck with the shrubbery outside that student's dorm. Yeah. Other than that though good

0:49:12 Lydia: Yeah, totally ruined the vibe. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So similar to your case that that you just spoke about he is trying to pursue damages. So we have we have a single cause of action wrongful discharge and violation of the First Amendment. But with regard to damages plaintiff is now suffering and will continue to suffer irreparable injury from defendants unlawful conduct is set forth herein unless enjoined by this court. Plaintiff has Has extreme emotional distress, severe emotional and physical pain and anguish, embarrassment, humiliation, shame, damage to reputation, damage to his personal and family relationships, termination of his employment, loss of benefits, loss of retirement, loss of income, legal fees, medical expenses, lost earning potential, and other pecuniary losses as a consequence of defendant's unlawful conduct.

0:50:02 Lydia: Yeah, exactly. So what he's looking for is, you know, reinstatement, punitive damages against the defendants sufficient to punish them and to deter further wrongdoing, compensatory damages, legal fees, etc. I mean, he's asking all litigation expenses, costs, pre -judgment, post -judgement interest as provided by law, and of course, other and further relief as the court deems just and proper. Now, when I had mentioned, you know, the questions that his wife received about like, how would your husband react if he saw a Turning Point USA table on campus? And she was like,

0:50:00 Thomas: I agree good

0:50:35 Lydia: What are you talking? He is a gentle, good man. Well, one thing that wasn't disclosed in the complaint is that the campus has a pretty prominent Turning Point USA chapter that is growing, and they are hosting an event next week, November 5th, that will be featuring Eric Trump, Laura Trump, U .S. Senator Tommy Tuberville, and Benny Johnson, Russia stooge Benny Johnson. So the school, I think, might have been acting, yeah, based off of what they know is coming up in a week and let him go as a result. You know, we talk about the impact to professors, to teachers. We had alluded to other folks within other industries that are being impacted as well. We see that within like the media and various folks that lost their positions, MSNBC,

0:50:47 Thomas: Barf Oh God Wow. Hmm. I wonder if that had anything to do with it yeah wow

0:51:28 Lydia: Washington Post. But I don't think that we had really like zeroed in on a position like this, an hourly wage employee who's just out there trying to make the campus look nice.

0:51:41 Thomas: Yep and again these are the ones we can actually hear from we don't know how many people there are like that the chilling effect is real and it's so funny because like all these things I'm saying I've heard them say in a bullshit that I've debunked you know, where they're like, look, there's a real chilling effect. If I can't say the N word in my class, then there might be other professors who don't, are afraid to say the N word too. You're like that's nothing good. I think, you know but like here we are real and way worse than they ever even conceived of in their wildest anti -woke propaganda lies.

0:52:19 Lydia: Mm hm. And then meanwhile, the fire .org, as you said, I keep checking their cases tab on their website and I filter to litigation or even just like anything involving their faculty legal defense fund. And there is nothing tied to Charlie Kirk. Nothing at all.

0:52:22 Thomas: Oh, how are they doing? God, that's insane. Have they made a statement? I mean, like, Like, look, they suck, and we've covered why they suck. But I do feel like they pay lip service to stuff.

0:52:46 Lydia: They do. They They do. So they have issued some, quote, strongly worded letters to universities that have been doing it. They have issued statements. And I do want to also give Adam Goldstein, the vice president of strategic initiatives at FIRE, some credit. I think this is a great quote that he gave to The New York Times when they were covering Suzanne Swartz over at Ball State University, which we talked about earlier. He said, it's very weird to live in a world where Charlie's wife can forgive the shooter, but we can't forgive a teacher who quoted him.

0:52:53 Thomas: That'll do it. Wow.

0:53:20 Lydia: And I think that is just yeah,

0:53:20 Thomas: This is a good quote. I'll give them credit. Give the devil his due. Hey, maybe put some of your resources toward helping these people in.

0:53:26 Lydia: I agree.

0:53:26 Thomas: Like you covered in Freethought Day, I mean, they rewarded one of the schools that was doing this in their fucking stupid rankings.

0:53:34 Lydia: Clemson partnered with FIRE and was able to move up their rankings. And then Clemson fired Joshua Bregge and another professor. And there's been zero impact to their ranking.

0:53:45 Thomas: Stupid bullshit crap.

0:53:45 Lydia: They don't even cite this as like a scholars under fire database thing. They're not cases

0:53:48 Thomas: And as I said, I feel like I need to say this because I'm going crazy when the before there was even an investigation into kill, kill, good breath, kill joy, kill born just based on his fucking lying ass word alone about the test. They put his school in the top five or whatever it was. Worst free speech schools in the nation just because of that. There wasn't anything else going on. It was literally on that one issue. They said you shouldn't even be allowed to investigate something like that, which is insane because an investigation is how you would even do anything. You would find out maybe he's right. That's, you know, you'd find out an investigation. That'S how you do it.

0:53:58 Lydia: Kill born yeah Yeah

0:54:36 Thomas: It's crazy.

0:54:37 Lydia: But this is uh what we're living in and a government that is wholly supportive of this and no one willing to call it out really no one no one with power I guess willing to Call It Out like we're doing it but we have no power so

0:54:50 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, sorry to tip our hand, but we've got no hand. We've got nothing.

0:54:53 Lydia: So share our show.

0:54:55 Thomas: Yeah that'd be nice. Give us, yeah, if you'd like to support our show patreon .com slash where there's woke and give us slightly more than the zero power we have right now. That would be very helpful. And yeah, why isn't anyone talking about this? I know it's like so many things where I'm like, man, I have so much experience with the bullshit version of this where people are like, why is no one talking about this? And again, there are some articles, there aresome articles here and there, but it's not the free speech nightmare that like the dude with the fucking, you know, wanted to put the N word in his test thing was like that's a free speech nightmare end of the world it's a multiple storylines about it you know all these broader points about how bad it is and how how fucked we are because of it it's not covered in that same way it's like part of like the background noise you know like oh yeah this is bad kind of oh man I can't that poor

0:55:43 Lydia: Mm-huh. Yeah. Oh, boy. Where do we go from here? I don't know.

0:55:54 Thomas: Landscaper guy who's like had to clean up literal brains from the school shooter who took his own life and has to sit there and put up with this

0:56:04 Lydia: And still pending, you know, slow-moving wheels of justice and all.

0:56:09 Thomas: Oh yeah what's anything in that docket or nothing okay well there you go

0:56:11 Lydia: Nothing in the docket. Nope. Nope. We have basically nothing going on. That might be a case I watch, honestly. I might see how the school responds to this.

0:56:18 Thomas: I know I really want to watch all these we have so much court watching to do all right well thanks for the breakdown and thanks everyone for listening this is ridiculous it's absolutely fucking ridiculous it is everything they said and way worse and all we can do is shine a light on it so thank you for for support thank you for listening and we'll see you next time

0:56:37 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah, you guys are the best.

0:56:59 Thomas: Because then yeah go fuck yourself kill roy kill kill bassa kill stress kill your breath kill joy kill born

0:57:08 Lydia: Kilborn.