Kat Abughazaleh - Indicted by Trump's DoJ for Protesting ICE while running for Congress

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Thomas: Hello, welcome to Opening Arguments. Is Thomas, and I'm doing this little intro right here because we our start a little bit, and I wanted to make sure in the moment that we got right to it to maximize the time we had with our guest, who is just incredible. So I figured I'd save the intro stuff for all the time in the world. I could take an hour right now. That. I I get introduced this as long as I want. I probably still wouldn't get to half of it in a moment we'll be on with Kat Abughazaleh, who if somehow only 26 and has done a million things. Had a very successful media career in that short time and has decided to now run for the House of Representatives out of Illinois' 9th district. Strict. Kat is amazing. She's doing really cool things with her campaign. Was with Media Matters for America, covering Fox News and Tucker Carlson, until she lost that job due to, we'll just say, Elon Musk. We'll be able to talk more about that with her. A huge following on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Instagram, later Blue Sky. Kind of branch of the right extremely well. I think it's really given her good insight into a lot of people are missing about the right and the far right. Talking about her campaign, campaign she's a real grassroots campaign and she's also doing really cool stuff with mutual aid groups and local businesses for example she had for her campaign lunch event she asked for period product donations rather than an entrance fee, which were then donated to a Chicago non -profit for distribution among low -income communities. It's She's doing all kinds of stuff like that. Maybe most significantly lately, she's been on the ground in Chicago where you might've heard that ICE has been. Very in protests at Broadview. She's been struck in the face at these protests. I think she's been roughed up a few other times and in October. Was actually indicted in what the official OA position will be is a bullshit political prosecution. She was indicted for something at a protest allegations. Indictment alleges that she physically hindered and impeded agent. A federal yeah, we think this is entirely political and bullshit. See what Kat has to say, or I mean, can even say about it at this point. She's simultaneously running for office and having to worry about the fact that she's been been indicted and has to fight that, which is really scary. Bullshit as it is, that's a terrifying thing. The weight of, you States Department of Justice coming after you has got to be scary no matter how BS it might be. Anyway, all that is to say we were absolutely thrilled that Kat wanted to come on the show and we're going to get right on over to it. For those listening, check this out on YouTube. This was was on video a lot of fun for those of you watching check check out audio you know it's you don't have to see anything you can just listen it's amazing I'm trying to exactly crisscross the audience substitute each audience for each other for some reason I just do weird things that's all I

0:02:55 Thomas: Let's just, oh, that would be awesome if you could do that. I didn't even think to ask you. Of course, I know. Well, Kat Abughazaleh, that's a great place to start. Like, as we're setting up, I was, like, okay. It's always so stressful trying to set up with an unknown person. And then I realized, like. Oh, wait. You know everything the fuck you're doing here.

0:03:01 Matt: A pro we're not used to pros so

0:03:15 Thomas: And then, I actually. A serious point. By the way, welcome to Opening Arguments. Thank you so much for joining us. Serious point, though. I was. Like, wait, yeah. The youth. Let's get. Should we maybe have people in politics who I don't have to explain, like you talk into the part that's the microphone and then you. Oh, my God. Is your computer on? Is your supercomputer on right now? Is it on? It's not on. OK, how am I talking to you? You know, it's so nice. So for one, welcome. And for two, yeah. What does it feel like to talk about youth, like really try to be a new voice in an aging political system? Them

0:03:15 Kat: Thank you um you know it just feels kind of like the rest of my and a lot of young people's lives uh we had just like millennials and gen z we both had two sides of the very same shitty coin like millennials were like okay you go to college you do all this stuff and then your life will be great you'll have a house and a family and all that and that was a lie and then with gen z they were kind like they didn't even lie they were just like you're fucked and you're just gonna have to like it and I don't know which one is worse genuinely um and so like we just had to advocate for ourselves I mean I think of like March for Our Lives which I was I marched in my uh freshman year of college was when that happened and uh yeah it's just like this is what we have to do I think Gen Z and a lot of Americans are sick of waiting for someone else to do what we know is right at

0:04:43 Thomas: It was not as a millennial it I guess I will say I didn't realize it until you mentioned it but it is nice for society to have cared enough to lie to me you know it's like that's they put an effort like go to college

0:04:53 Kat: The same time like you had like you did all this stuff with the expectation and then it the rug was pulled out from under you. And look, I genuinely don't know which one's worse, but we're in this together. I mean, like I'm right on that cusp. My little cousin was like, you were born in the 1900s and I was like 99. Fuck you. But yeah.

0:05:11 Thomas: Uh well there is so much to talk to you about I I don't even know where to begin but I maybe just to you know talk about at the beginning get it out of the way you've been indicted and we here at Opening Arguments, a law podcast know better than to ask too many details about pending litigation or whatever so I just wanted to ask you what can you tell us in the audience about what happened to you, what's going on right now can

0:05:34 Kat: Yeah. I mean, it's a blatantly political prosecution. I plan on pleading not guilty. I plan on winning. I'm still running for Congress.

0:05:43 Thomas: You give us like the bare for people who don't know anything about it just the bare, like what yeah

0:05:47 Kat: So So for the past, you know, couple months, ICE has been terrorizing Chicago. I have been protesting at the Broadview ICE facility. I've been exercising my First Amendment rights, as have many others. We have seen time and time again ICE abusing protesters. And now this indictment has come, and it's very clearly a selective and bogus prosecution.

0:06:13 Kat: And, yeah, I plan on pleading not guilty, plan on winning election day and in court. That's always fun to say. Not something I planned for this campaign. Definitely was a shock to see on the indictment, like the United States versus Catherine Abughazaleh. But also not a surprise in the way that like I've covered the right for my whole career. And this is what the right does. This is what authoritarians do. I just don't know if I expected to see my name on there this year. Um but yeah you know it's

0:06:44 Thomas: Well it's amazing that you're able to fight back and it just makes me think, you know, we cover stuff like this all the time, every time we cover something like this I always think, well, these are the people we've heard of, like how many people who just get run over by the authorities or the power powers that be who just do not have the wherewithal, the ability, the money, the privilege to be able to like fight and like what they're just fucked. Like, what do they do?

0:06:44 Matt: You've been on the you've

0:07:07 Thomas: You know, it's really sad.

0:07:07 Kat: Absolutely I'm so glad you brought that up like right on the head uh even before the indictment you know there was this video of an ice agent throwing me to the ground um a cart was going to run over someone and I was trying to get them out of the way and he picked me up and threw me to ground it was very jarring for a lot of people because it was I mean I'm palestinian but if you look at me I'm the whitest person in the world so So they're seeing like little blonde white woman getting thrown by a big man. And you're not supposed to see that in America. And I just had to keep stressing. I was like, thank you for your concern. But like, let's refocus. This is what they are willing to do on camera. The reason we are protesting in the first place is what is happening in the Broadview Processing Center. And we just got, you know, months ago, we heard about people being denied beds and hot meals and access to hygienic facilities. Facilities. Two weeks ago, we heard about people like the air in there is just almost unbreathable, people going into cardiac arrest, being carried out on stretchers, being given fake translators, so they'll sign their own deportation notices. And this week, we have heard even newer reports of the fact that people aren't allowed to go to the bathroom more than once a day. If they soil themselves, they are beaten. Food is thrown at them. Once again, not hot meals, just food is thrown At them. And if it's like on the ground, they they make a mess, they beat them again.

0:08:25 Kat: It's horrific. If people don't sign their own deportation notices, they get beaten. This is according to someone who was in that facility and who was so scared he signed his own deportATION notice. But those people don t have the, like, we're going to have to balance legal fees on top of campaign expenses. And people have been very generous and outpouring of support. I've been so grateful. But what I really want to stress is the most most vulnerable people in our communities right now are enduring so much worse and they don't get the benefit of cameras when people come to their doors. They don't get the benefit of people remembering their names all the time. They don't know that they have a lawyer or if they have a lawyer, knowing that they will be able to see that lawyer. The second report I talked about of people being carried out in stretchers was was relayed by someone's lawyer of someone who was a widower who was had legal papers he was married to a U.S. citizen had four kids and signed his own deportation because he was given a fake translator on the same morning he was supposed to have his emergency hearing so like it's really I thomas I really appreciate you bringing up the fact like so many people are just screwed over here and especially on top of like snap benefits uh being cut for like not just the shutdown but But for refugees and immigrants after December 1st, like, how are you supposed to afford a lawyer, especially without the right to representation, which is something we need in our justice system?

0:08:25 Thomas: What the fuck? And

0:09:53 Kat: That's kind of just, yes, yeah,

0:09:53 Thomas: The chilling effect of that, how many people are like, well, I can't even mess around with this. Yeah.

0:09:57 Matt: You've had an important voice on the the ground in the middle of all this, what they're calling Operation Midway Blitz, which I think is the largest single sort of operation of its kind since the very unfortunately named Operation Wetback from the 50s. And I think that it is really hard for those of us who don't live in Chicago, and I'm sure even people who do live in Chicago, to get their heads around what ICE is doing to your communities right now. Can you just try to tell us what it looks like on the ground, even beyond Broadview, where I know you've been spending a lot of your time, but just sort of what you're hearing, what it's like out there.

0:10:26 Kat: Yeah, someone wrote a really incredible piece yesterday that I think it was called, I need you to understand what it's like in Chicago. And it was like under 1 ,600 words, and it was just a perfect encapsulation of the fear and anger and defiance right now. I live in Rogers Park, which is a very diverse community with a lot of immigrants. We have had multiple raids come through here every day. Neighbors walk the streets with whistles to patrol for ICE at all hours of the day. When two men were snatched up off the corner of where our campaign office is. 400 people came out and we signed up for school watches. We got whistles. We got involved with Protect RP, which is Protect Rogers Park. And this is happening all over Chicago. In Evanston, which ist just a little tiny bit north from Rogers Park, it's a suburb of Chicago. It's where Northwestern is. ICE is doing horrific things to people. They're pointing guns at people for filming. And three men were three day laborers were at a Home Depot and ICE came and abducted two of them. One got away, but now three families have lost their breadwinner because even the one that got away is too terrified to leave his home. And I don't blame him. A daycare teacher was dragged out of daycare in the morning of school. Like children watched a man in a full balaclava drag her out and shove her into a car. ICE agents are deploying tear gas in residential neighborhoods. They are ruining people's cars. I know people that are like afraid to do street parking now because they're afraid that ICE is just going to like run into their car. Are. They lie about what they're doing. Months ago, before Midway Blitz, they were sending out texts to people who were following the asylum process and told them that they had a hearing and then arrested them when they showed up for their hearing, when they were trying to follow the legal process. And I think it's difficult for people who don't live in a place right now that is being occupied by ICE to understand what it's like. But these are not one -off events. Every single day, my phone is flooded with notifications of different areas in Chicago where people are just scared to go outside. Girl Scouts aren't selling cookies.

0:12:57 Kat: Kids didn't go out trick -or -treating for Halloween. Um people are scared but they're also coming together in a way that I haven't seen in my lifetime I think we've all gotten a lot more isolated over my lifetime but especially since covid and it's not just the patrols it's delivering groceries it's checking in on people it's this is what we see in authoritarian regimes I told someone if you've ever wondered as many have what you would have been doing in like 1930s 1940s germany you know now it's what you're doing right now can

0:13:34 Thomas: Had such a surreal moment when I, we had a friend visiting from out of the country and I literally had to tell her, Hey, make sure you don't have any anti -Trump things on your phone. And I was like, what the fuck? Like I said it and then was like had this like out of body experience of like, that's what I used to hear about as a kid about other, you know, about regimes, about all this horrible stuff. And you'd be like, there's no, how could could that happen? That's impossible. It makes no sense. I mean, it's just insane. You know, I'm not sure if you're familiar, but Matt is an immigration attorney, works with people like this every single day. And Matt, what are you seeing? And also, I want to ask kind of on the topic of the whistles in Chicago and everything they're doing, like, how does that work? Because as somebody who's not on the ground there, it just seems like amazing, but also scary and dangerous. And does it really deter them from picking people up? Is it working?

0:14:26 Kat: I jump in on the whistle thing before matt goes off uh so yeah if you see ice around you do three short bursts on your whistle and if they're actively detaining someone you do three long bursts and this is it's honestly been super effective ice fucking hates these whistles it brings attention to them but also it's great for people that have different risk assessments because not everyone can, you know, be close up in filming. If someone's being detained by ICE, they might be with a child. They might be to say it like there's so many different reasons that certain people can interact more with ICE than others. And so what this does is it allows other people to come out. And if they have the ability to to be able to see who these people are, make sure that that we have whoever's being detained, their name, their birthday, and how to locate them, their family members to contact. It's been extremely effective and it's become kind of a symbol around Chicago of resistance. Like if you see someone, I just carry whistles in my purse. People keep dropping off 3D printed whistles at the office. So we have like no joke, a thousand of them and we've given out probably a thousand and we just

0:14:27 Thomas: Sorry.

0:14:27 Matt: Please.

0:15:34 Thomas: Campaign

0:15:34 Kat: Give them to people.

0:15:34 Thomas: Branding there you go yeah

0:15:36 Kat: I mean, but it's It's important. We try to use our campaign office as like a mutual aid hub. But I think like the whistles, it's become kind of this symbol. And it's just – I think about the other – like a couple months ago, right at the beginning of Midway Blitz, there were a bunch of unfamiliar cars on my street. And my partner and I, it was like 11 p .m., we woke up and we were like, oh shit, is that ice? So we went down in our pajamas outside and it was just a bunch of guys working on water pipes. And we were you're like, oh, thank God. But eight other people had come out of their homes at 11 o 'clock to check on the same thing.

0:15:38 Thomas: I know oh these are good people doing something for society never mind false alarm it's not fucking worst people

0:16:13 Kat: And those guys were thankful too. It was just cool that all of us were all on the page at 11 in our jammies in the middle of the street. But yeah, Mike, what are you hearing?

0:16:15 Thomas: You're

0:16:21 Matt: Love that. Oh, well, I just want to say, I think, and I just, I've been trying to learn as much as I can about Chicago, trying to keep, keep track of it. It's so much to watch because, you know, certainly I've been doing this for 20 years. We haven't seen this kind of visibility and this kind of attempt to scare people. And certainly the kind of things we're seeing in Chicago, we have not seen in my career. And I certainly, I don't think we've seen, you knows, it's many, many decades, but I wanted to say it really really ties into just holding the line in Chicago the way that you all have and the way that you've been on the forefront a lot of this, just being on the ground, telling us what's happening, even coming in here to talk about it. It's so important. But I think it ties right into the very first plank in your campaign platform, which you just mentioned. And I just want to mention on catfillerannoy.com, that's cat with a K, of course. I'm sure we'll be mentioning that a few times today. But number one, right front and center, anti -authoritarianism. I've never seen, even in 2020 -2024. I don't think we've seen somebody run exclusively have that be top of the ticket. And I guess I have to say, obviously, having seen ICE in action has to have spurred that on. But how did that become your top campaign issue?

0:17:22 Kat: It's funny because the campaign issues are actually in alphabetical order, but we made sure our top two issues were A and B, so that way they would be top, so anti -authoritarianism in basic existence.

0:17:25 Matt: Well, sure. Yes. Well,

0:17:32 Thomas: Starting to do like the phone book like triple a authority wait do you know what a phone book is shit oh I don't know You're so young.

0:17:33 Matt: Basic existence. Yeah. I think

0:17:37 Kat: So like I said, born in the 90s, 90s baby, 1999. Yeah, so I've spent my career covering the far right. I started my career at Media Matters. My specialty was Tucker Carlson. So I'd watch him every single night, analyze narratives. In 2023, I realized that people get their information through video rather than like reading text. I am actually not one of those people, but I wanted to reach more. So I started doing video explainers and they kind of took off. And so I like a big part of why I'm running is I and my colleagues have been mourning Democrats about this exact situation. I mean, I did an hour long explainer on Project 2025 and white Christian nationalism last October. Like we told them about January 6th before it happened. We told them About COVID misinformation where the DEI CRT anti trans panic would lead and like no one listened and I got sick of waiting around for someone to listen. And I don't want to be in Congress forever. Ever. I want to get in, get fascists out, do some good and go back to hanging out with my cat and leaving it for people that, you know, I want To keep doing my reporting after that. I

0:18:50 Kat: Don't think that this should be like a lifelong thing. And I didn't want to run for Congress this year. But I'm just so sick of waiting. And we can't fix the house if it's actively on fire.

0:19:00 Thomas: Well, one thing we always would hear is, well, it doesn't pull well to just be, when you talk about what things are people concerned about, you try to run on like Trump is an authoritarian, Trump is an authoritarian. It just doesn't poll well. People want to know about the price of bread. And I wonder, this is something that I think is maybe a generational difference in our politicians and let me know what you think. But I really feel like a lesson of the past god 10 years whatever has been uh republicans uh you know democrats follow where they think the issues are and republicans just make fucking issues out of things they just make it an issue and I just can't help but wonder if something says well people aren't you know they're not they're they're more concerned with the price of it well how about if we all made it a fucking issue that it's trump's an authoritarian and this is what's happening maybe then they will care we saw it with immigration it changed overnight it's felt like you know so what do you think about that that possible generational divide there.

0:19:50 Kat: And yeah, I mean, that's definitely part of it. I also think, you don't Chicago, it's unique, because because like everyone here has either had a personal run -in or knows someone who has had a personal running with ice and I can't imagine any of them have been good um but uh you know we did a poll and the top issue I've never seen this in a house race poll certainly not a house primary poll biggest issue was democracy and then affordability and I think where we've we're democrats and democratic leadership and all of us have kind of missed the mark over the last 10 10 years is you can't just say, well, he's an authoritarian. He's a bad guy. There's more to it than that. Like the affordability crisis is not just because Joe Biden is like a Democrat who spent too much on trans surgeries or whatever Republicans are saying. The affordability crisis is because the bad guy, the authoritarian and his billionaire buddies have been exploiting all of us and it's become more obvious now than ever and so like that idea of basic existence which is the idea that everyone should be able to afford housing groceries and health care with money left over to save and spend like they're that our lives

0:21:02 Kat: Are not a means of profit for all and that's so controversial I know um that like our lives aren't just a means of profit is directly tied to anti -authoritarianism and when you're doing like exactly what you said said, Thomas, about constantly moving to where they think the issues are. We have Republicans in my, granted, very blue district, but the ones that are Republicans have been like, I don't know if I agree with everything you believe in, but I do think you actually believe it. And so now I'm curious. Now I kind of like want to go to your campaign office. Can we get coffee? And I think that says a lot of where we're at in politics. Like it's not you versus me. It's us versus a a very tiny fraction of people that are trying to pit us against each other and exploit every drop of our life force so that way they can have a few extra bucks. And by a few extra bucks, I mean more money than any of us will ever see in our lives.

0:21:02 Thomas: We got a communist over here, everybody get. Yeah. Yeah.

0:21:58 Matt: It says a lot about the state of 2025 in our politics that that the first two issues, rightfully, the first two issues on your campaign are anti -authoritarianism and basic existence. Just seeing the phrase basic existence is such a perfect encapsulation, it's such a great moral clarity point to just come out and say, so what policies are you putting out? I mean, I don't know how else to put this, but that support basic existence?

0:22:19 Kat: Yeah. I mean, like the reason that I did it like that, besides alphabetical order, of course, is I'm sick of treating like all of these policies like they're just their own thing. Housing, groceries and health care are inherently tied. And they're also more more universal health care, protections against price gouging, and building more housing with federal incentives to work with local businesses and actual action against corporate landlords, those save us money and have better outcomes. The same is true with climate policy and the Green New Deal. That generates jobs, that creates a healthier life for us all, and it lowers costs for people on their energy costs. Same with education. All of these things feed into each each other. And I think too often in American politics, we treat it like, okay, we pass one bill on one thing and we don't have to do anything for 20 years. And that's just when everything is so awful, you can't be treating things as if they happen in a vacuum because they don't.

0:23:19 Thomas: I will never understand why you'll see billionaires. I'm out in California and you'll be billionaires complaining about the homeless and in San Francisco. And you're like, well, just fix it. Like you're a billionaire. Like that's why you have all the money. You get to control everything. And I can't, it's like, I don't understand why even for people who have so so much money, who I guess are, I don't know, maybe not the most empathetic, even from a selfish perspective, why don't they want to like fix some of these issues? It's insane to me. Like, how's it good for anybody?

0:23:48 Kat: I mean, it'd make you look so cool. If you solved homelessness, that would look so cool. And it's not that difficult of a problem to solve. Give people homes. Homes they should live in places everyone should live in a place it's like not a mystery now

0:24:02 Thomas: You heard it here first, everybody.

0:24:06 Matt: Yeah, and these things are not luxuries. Something as simple as paid family medical leave, which of course you support, universal child care, these are not luxury products. These are things that other countries have figured out. No, right, of course. Yeah, that's deluxe platinum package kind of stuff we're talking about. I know. But yeah, no, I mean, but just to see it packaged and discussed as basic existence, I think is just politically brilliant.

0:24:16 Kat: Insulin of course thank

0:24:30 Matt: But I did want to just very quickly back to the anti -authoritarian point. What did you learn from your time? Because, you know, I have watched your career over the years with Media Matters, loved your Tucker Carlson stuff, as you always said, watching it, so we didn't have to. What didyou learn? I'm not going to say from Tucker Carlsen, but I guess from watching Tucker Carlsan and is ilk about our moment and about what we can do to stop it.

0:24:30 Kat: You thank you um I mean it goes back decades you know it goes back to the john birch society there are so many forces like dobbs was not just dobbs didn't happen in a vacuum this was a decades -long crusade to uh overturn roe versus wade And the same is true for a lot of what we're seeing from the far right now. But I think where it kind of got supercharged is Steve Bannon recognizing that we told young men that their only value was what they could provide, what they they could produce and then gave them no ability to have a family, to be able to afford college, to beable to afford a home, and then took away all their third spaces and then said, well, sorry, and Steve Bannon saw that, and instead of actually making a solution, he created these online spaces where he could say, well I know the reason that you feel like garbage, and it's because of women or minorities or gay people, and created these spaces online that have inspired required mass shootings that have my cats knocking stuff off of a shelf. And that's, of course, not everything, but it's a huge part of what would influence Tucker's show. And the 8 p .m. time slot on Fox is the most powerful time slot in the country. This is why Bill O 'Reilly, he had so much influence over the left and right when he was on air. When Tucker came on, he pretty much just condensed it to the right. But he was able, the way he was able to make 4chan conspiracies into narratives that you'd see on the House floor was honestly breathtaking in the worst way. Do y'all remember the conspiracy theory that Joe Biden was hiring 80 ,000 IRS agents to audit you at gunpoint?

0:26:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:26:26 Kat: So that was, I believe it started on some message boards. I mean, the idea for those who don't know was 80, 000 employees were being hired for the IRS over like 20 years because a lot of the IRS workforce was aging out of the workforce. And so so they needed to hire some. Very few of those would be actual IRS agents, which are the people that deal with financial crimes, such as when Al Capone got arrested. But Tucker saw this conspiracy theory, thought it'd be a great thing to hop on because, wow, everyone hates the IRS in America. So he had Matt Gaetz on on a Friday on the second -to -last block, and they just talked about it for a little bit, being like, why are we buying so many guns for the IRS? Which, once once again, was not what was happening. Then on Monday, he brings it up in the third block. Tuesday, Tucker doesn't bring it up at all. Wednesday, it's the entire A block. So now it's become a full story. It's like, we've been researching this. You remember when we were talking about this. We've been talking aboutthis for a long time, but it's been like four days. By the next week, it was on the House floor. And when people don't understand conspiracy theories, when they don't understand where this information is coming from, they take bad faith arguments in good faith. The same was true with Kevin McCarthy, those 15 votes to get him to become Speaker of the House. That wasn't because the Republicans hated him. I mean, some of them did. But it was because Tucker was holding the speakership hostage. He listed demands, getting the January 6 tapes and establishing a Frank Church -style committee led by Thomas Massey, I believe, leave on the COVID vaccine. And the most radical parts of that party did not bend until he had agreed to Tucker's terms. And sure enough, that Friday when McCarthy won, Massey came on and thanked Tucker. And a couple months later, Tucker had the January 6th tape. So when you don't understand right-wing media or when you do not listen to people who are telling you what is going on in right - wing media, you fundamentally misunderstand the opposition. And that is why I I think a lot of Democrats are not taking the Republican Party seriously or they maybe are taking them too seriously. It's like they're operating from a playbook that's 20 years out of date.

0:28:40 Thomas: Yeah, and I know it's so easy to harp on the media, but what you said about taking taking these bad faith things and good faith just drives me up the wall because it, there is this impulse in, especially in old media to be like, well, I'm going to find a good faith reason for why you believe the thing that you don't even believe for a good reason. You know, they're like, they'll find the explanation that makes sense of a thing that these people don't want to make sense of. And they're just lying about. And it really gets us into this, just no man's land of, of truth. Like it's nothing you're way that we think about truth, once we've gotten to the point where the left and the, or not even the left, like the mainstream is coming up with justifications for conspiracy theories for these other people who are just doing it for either because they're crazy and they believe it or to, to exert power. And it's like, we're so twisted by the time you get through all that process that just most media feels useless. Like, I don't, why do they even do do the white house press briefings. Why does anyone go to them? What, what does that do? Like just somebody tell me what that does. It's just, they know, we know they're going to lie. So it's a bunch of media being like, Hey, tell us, tell Us the next one. And then like, that's that. What does it

0:29:50 Thomas: Do? Nothing.

0:29:50 Kat: Have you considered that everyone wants to see the press secretary's giant cross necklace?

0:29:55 Thomas: Yeah.

0:29:56 Kat: And that's the reason they go because it's gorgeous. It'S so beautiful.

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0:30:03 Kat: You didn't have to give a question. I think that's I think THAT'S the reason.

0:32:04 Thomas: I did have a question relating to something you said much earlier, which is people really want to feel like their politicians or anybody just actually believe what they're saying. And it's amazing that it's taken so long. Like, that is the thing that that I really think people somehow was true about Trump, like people like and it is true in a way, even though he lies more than anybody's ever lied. Like when he goes on a racist tangent, you're like, oh, I believe that he believes that.

0:32:31 Thomas: Like I believethat he hates Mexicans. LikeI believe that. And the left, I guess I don't know if it's the left or just the way our political machinery works, but just certainly in leadership, like it's taking forever to get there. And so I wanted to ask you about that, but also just, again, you're so young, sorry to keep saying it, but I just want to know, and you already have years of, of work and experience. And I just wanted to know like on a personal level, what's kind of driven you, you seem so driven, you know, in what's driven you. Do you have a, do you have superhero origin story or anything? Like what, what has given you this energy to take on everything you've taken on over the years?

0:33:05 Kat: Starting with the latter. I mean, I grew up Republican, not like Christian nationalists, which I'm very grateful for, but I grew Up in like a very Reagan Republican household. And around when Trump announced, yeah, it's, it'S weird, because it's like, not insidious when you're in it. And then you look back and you're like, Oh, I believe some really shitty things. And that's why I really, just by default, and I really respect my parents for like being older and going through a political transformation, because no one likes admitting they were wrong. And yeah, yeah, they voted for Hillary and everything. We did not like Trump when he came around. And like right before he announced I had moved to Tucson, which is much less segregated by income than where I grew up in Dallas. And so I had friends who were like much smarter than me who couldn't afford to go to college even with a full ride. And I was like, oh, like maybe Ronald Reagan isn't right about everything. But like you just kind of need that one puncture to start asking questions. And like I always say that ignorance, the effects are negative, but its existence is totally value neutral. So I really wanted to devote my life to kind of fighting against that. And also like, this is so sad. When I was a kid, like my best friends besides like my two actual best friends were like all the books I read, all the characters and every single character I appreciated and loved and wanted to be friends with was someone that just fought for what they thought was right and didn't compromise on that. That genuinely shaped everything I wanted to do in my life. And like whether it was Clan of the Cave Bear, Ayla, the main character in there, I thought she was the coolest character I'd ever read to, you know, horrible example, but I read every Tom Clancy book because they were in my dad's library. And I was like, this is America.

0:33:14 Thomas: Same. Yeah. Yeah. Just by default. Yeah. Oh, have they? I didn't know that. Oh, that's awesome. Wow.

0:34:52 Kat: They're not that good in hindsight. Insight um but yeah I think like the believing in things it's really sad that that kind of is the threshold now of what people want to see of like wow you believe stuff that's cool you actually think what you're saying you don't take corporate money you don'T take billionaire money you DON'T take republican funded PAC money like the bar is so unbelievably low now but it's I remember there There was this like centrist conference last year or earlier this year where they literally said that we need to move away from the dominance of small dollar donors to appeal to the electorate.

0:35:35 Matt: The tyranny. Wow.

0:35:36 Kat: And I was like, motherfucker, that is the electorat. What are you talking about?

0:35:39 Matt: It's incredible. Wow.

0:35:43 Kat: And so we just like need to get out of the government shutdown bullshit. Shit I mean you just know that some of the reasons that these senators voted yes was because their donors are frustrated about flights it's

0:35:54 Thomas: Yeah we should talk about that I did that is pretty fresh news as as of taping here and can can we get more of your thoughts on that because I felt profoundly disappointed right away I haven't you know had all the time in the world to digest it's just pretty fresh but what's your impression of the deal that I guess is happening?

0:35:55 Matt: And sure. I

0:36:14 Kat: I mean, I don't know how many times we have to get kicked in the balls for someone to be like, hey, maybe trusting Trump is a bad idea. Like the promise that they're getting, they aren't getting ACA, they aren't getting any of this. It's, oh, well, we'll have a vote on it in December. What I mean, we have three more votes until the shutdown is officially over, so like, it's not, it's not over till it's over. But like, Democrats are so good at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, like this. Voters know who is behind this shutdown. They know who was raising their premiums. They know how to, they know this. And, like, I'm not one to think that polling is the end all be all of everything, but even the polling showed that. And you can't hold the line like

0:36:57 Thomas: Yeah what What I don't get is why the change, like either, either don't do it. Like if you, if you had a principled position that we can't shut down the government because it affects too many lives again, to our point, if You genuinely believe that, and I felt like You genuinely believed that, okay, like I could, I could deal with that. But if You believed in this cause enough to let the government shut down for the long, not just for like a day, for the longest one yet, just the other day, it tripped over it. And then now You're like, okay. Now that we've gotten absolutely nothing for it, but it's gone on a little long, never nevermind. It's like, what is the point?

0:37:28 Kat: What's all this pain for

0:37:29 Thomas: Why did you even do that? Yeah. It is snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. I just don't fucking understand it. It s driving me crazy. What are they doing? God.

0:37:41 Kat: Matt what do you think

0:37:42 Matt: Think this goes right to what I understand to be where your campaign comes from. I mean, your first slogan was, what if things didn't have to suck, right? And that's, what if we didn't suck? Even better. There we go. That's such a good straight ahead slogan. And I think that as we all know, the average Democrat is about three times your age. And, I mean that's that's what you're taking on. And we need young, fresh voices that haven't been corrupted by the cynicism and the consultants. I mean, you're not like this, the kind of stuff you're talking about with, you know, what if we try to avoid the small dollar donors? Like that's consultant talk, that's not real people talk. That's not how people think. So I'd love to know kind of what you, I mean I know that it was Palestine certainly that motivated you as well, but I get the sense that it Was the state of the party and you're sort of, you discussed it, how out of touch they are with what we really need to fight Trump on the ground. And I'd love to hear more about where you're coming from and what inspired you here.

0:37:49 Kat: What if we didn't suck Once again, this is one of those times where the polling showed over and over again that in swing states, showing any empathy towards Gazan civilians would have helped Kamala Harris significantly. I don't think it was the only reason she lost, but I certainly don't think it wasn't part of the reason she lost.

0:39:20 Kat: And I truly did not plan to run for Congress at all. And then I was, because I was like, someone's going to do something. I mean, this is bad enough that someone's going to have to do it. And so I was like, I'm going to run. And they just sat behind him while he got inaugurated. Like, what are we doing here? This is not a game.

0:39:37 Kat: People's lives aren't a game and you know what's happening now? People are being snatched off the streets. We're being A baby was pepper sprayed. A baby. People can't eat.

0:39:48 Thomas: I don't think I'd be able to not kill somebody in that situation. I don't know how people are handling this. This is insane.

0:39:53 Kat: Have you ever been pepper sprayed? It sucks. It's awful. And a baby got pepper sprayed, yeah.

0:39:58 Thomas: But I'm a parent and anything anything happening to a kid, I would lose my mind. I don't know how people are containing it. And you say

0:40:04 Kat: Kids right now are being denied food in detention, in immigration detention. They're being denied foods. They are hungry. Children,

0:40:13 Thomas: It's not, you know, that reminds me of something. And I didn't used to think this back when, you were fucking 15 and Trump ran the first time or whatever, you're like, but I did, they used to say, people used to saying, okay, fair enough. People used to say that we, the left needs a Trump or something sometimes. And it's like, no, we don't, I don't want someone who just lies about everything. But lately, the last few years I have really felt, And I think this is something you're probably uniquely positioned to know so much about after, you know, you've covering Tucker and all the conspiracy theories is I have felt like, OK, wait, maybe and maybe I was slow to this. I think we do need something like what happened on the right. We need something Like the Tea Party. We Need Something Like in that sense that not conspiracy theory nonsense in the sense that, hey, we are tired of the politicians not giving a shit about what we say. And the right, they had that situation. They had the Mitt Romneys and the people that like they felt like and I've talked to some of my right wing family about this is still right wing. I talked to on occasion when we can when we Can Handle It. But they they felt very fed up with like these these people don't really believe what I believe they thought, you know, MAGA like and they were right for a while. And now now it's like it's taken over. But it's almost like we need that where it's It's like there's all kinds of us on the left who are like they just aren't representing us at all in a meaningful way. And I've tended to be a bit more, I don't know, forgiving is the right word, but I tend to think that most people in the Democratic Party and in leadership, I think they do want good things to happen. But it's becoming it's become harder to defend all of them. And it's felt more like, OK, yeah, they want good stuff to happen, but it's certainly not urgent. It's not like, oh, darn, didn't go through this time. Well, next time, people who are starving. And to your point, it's like we want people who are just like, no, we're done. Like, we'RE done with

0:40:22 Kat: 17, yeah,

0:41:57 Thomas: The like, OK, maybe next 10 years we'll figure if we can get people some some health care. And it's just like we just need people who ARE fucking fed up with it. And that's kind of what happened on the right, except it ushered in just absolute insanity. But we need that energy where it's, like, the people of the party taking back over and just done with these, like empty suit politicians.

0:42:19 Kat: Mean, we kind of saw a reversal of what had happened to get us into to the great depression uh when fdr took power I mean I don't think like the new deal is thought of this great thing now but a lot at the time oligarch spent so much time and money trying to convince the american people that like fdr was some tyrant who wanted to like be their babysitter by giving them a job um and he just said fuck you you're getting like you're giving your social security like this is something we're establishing and we need more of that I also think and I think think you're right that like I don't think every politician is evil I think that too many of them buy into a system that depends on inaction like the idea of call time a lot of them are still spending time dialing donors during this shutdown to ask for money for their campaigns because they want to make a difference and they want to do good stuff but how are they supposed to do that if they have re -election in two years and so it's just like this circle that goes over and over and over but I think the other thing of like the leftist trump argument is there is something to learn in just stop caring what they think about you like

0:43:31 Kat: The president of the united states said he grabbed a woman by the pussy. And then he was like, I don't care, fuck you. And meanwhile, you have like this weird self-flagellation in the Democratic Party anytime any like criticism comes out, like this need to constantly meet the right where they're at. Like, there's this picture that's on my public Instagram, like I haven't deleted it, it is absolutely public, of me as a bartender goofing off with my friends. I'm in fishnets. We were just after our shift having a fun time. And the right constantly post it as like a gotcha. No.

0:43:34 Thomas: You can stop there, actually. I'm already laughing.

0:44:08 Thomas: Wait, that's it? I thought there was going to be like, and also there's a problematic thing in it. It's just you existing as a.

0:44:13 Kat: I'm just wearing like like shorts and fishnets and like a bodysuit and I just I look I look cute because I'm dressed up for my bar shifts, as you know many women when they bartend do. Um, and they like try to post it as some gotcha. And at no point have I, when it first came out, people were like, oh my god, you should delete that, and I was like, why? Why why are we treating this as some scandal? It's literally a picture of me doing like the quintessential working class job. By the way, and second, like I'm not ashamed of something that the president of the United States has admitted to sexually assaulting women. Like, why are we trying to polish ourselves into the exact same form, thinking that this is some formula for success? If you wear the right pantsuits and you do all this shit over and over again, you don't have anything controversial about yourself. And if you do have some type of diversity, then you have to be talking about it all the time, but also not too much, because you don't want people to think that's your whole, like, it's just all these things that come together to make every single person like this expectation of a cookie cutter. And I don't know if this makes sense, but what I am telling people is stop caring so much about what the right thinks about you. Because most of the time, the stuff that they try to get you in a tizzy about, the stuff that you want to run in circles around chasing your tail, it doesn't matter. And they're just trying to distract you. And they're just trying to make you look like a fool. And you only look like a fool if you let them do it.

0:45:38 Thomas: And. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Matt.

0:45:39 Matt: I was going to say that that has to be one of your, starting out as a candidate, one of Your Greatest Qualifications is that you've already faced these people. I mean, they've been very vocal about you for a long time. Like, you know exactly what to do with them.

0:45:46 Kat: It is the best. It's the best

0:45:49 Matt: And you're part of the social media generation, as you said, that, like, you've got these pictures out there, whatever. I mean、 like I said, there's nothing wrong with it, but, like,, you're used to living your life online, right?

0:45:49 Kat: Training for running for congress yeah

0:45:58 Matt: These pictures, yeah, having fun, right, right.

0:45:57 Thomas: These pictures of being a person that we could have seen

0:46:00 Matt: Or that, right., or that video of Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez was just dancing, like just out in the hallway dancing, right? That was supposed to be a scandal for some reason, right, she's just having a good time, and you're used to living online, you're of the generation, you know, now that, and I think that that's harder for maybe people older than us to understand, but you know I really think that when I saw that you were running it just made so much sense that you would make that jump from kind of getting the polish of being online all the time and having those videos and social media presence to be able to, and I'm interested though, what, how, how has that prepared you, like being so online and being so visible?

0:46:00 Thomas: If we went to the bar. Like.

0:46:31 Kat: I think it's less about being online, it's about being online and attacked by Nazis constantly because that

0:46:36 Matt: That's That's more what I meant. Yeah.

0:46:36 Kat: Is the best training for writing for congress I can't imagine, actually I can, because I have had opponents in my race that call me for advice on like how to handle being brigaded or how to handle like weird messages. And I'm like, you you have a spouse but you know whatever whatever. I'll give them advice.

0:46:58 Kat: But like it's it's one of these things that I want to also be empathetic to because for me, it's my daily life. Like I've spent the last five years getting constant death and rape threats, weird racist messages, like, you know, the stuff that I'm saying it so casually, which kind of shows how like screwed up my brain is in this regard. But it's also the default for politics in America today, especially in this moment, which means if you are not ready to handle that right now, you are not ready to handle this job.

0:47:26 Matt: No, that actually brings me to something I really want to ask you about. Speaking of Nazis in this moment, Stephen Miller, I think we both agree, Stephen Miller or Kristi Noem, Kristen Nielsen, everyone else responsible for immigration policies, we know it today. You've said before, and I certainly know we all agree that they belong in the Hague, that they've been lying with charges on trial. That's not possible, obviously, since we haven't signed onto the Rome Convention. But short of that, you're in Congress with like -minded Democrats, I hope. What are you going to be doing for truth and reconciliation to actually have some real consequences for this moment? What are we looking at?

0:48:00 Kat: I think we should sign on to the Rome Statute, but also, we can't get past this and just pretend it was all a bad dream. We need consequences. We need to abolish ICE. That's not just a slogan. If any government agency can be used in the way that ICE is being used, that government agency should not exist. So we need to abolish ice, and we need to unmask the men that have been doing this to our communities communities and they need to be like, we need to hold trials.

0:48:30 Kat: It's as simple as that. And I don't care how long it takes. We need to Hold all of them accountable. Not just the leaders, everyone who has committed crimes against civilians across this country needs to be held accountable.

0:48:45 Thomas: Yeah. I've said it for years now. I want now a law and order candidate. Give me a law and order candidate, but for actual law and fucking order, not for let's arrest poor people for something. Give me law and water for like, let's actual fucking consequences. I'm out of my mind. As you're saying that again, this left, right parallel is so weird to me. I'm like having kind of a existential crisis. Cause I think of them being like prosecute Fauci. It's like, yeah, I want that energy, but für not a made up bullshit thing, not prosecute Fauci

0:49:11 Kat: They're like, We love law and order, but not like that. We love free speech, but but not like that. Uh, like it's just always, but not like that, yeah.

0:49:15 Thomas: But the but the the energy yeah but the energy of on their side of prosecute Fauci which is an insane thing but that energy except towards something where it's like yeah you pepper sprayed a baby you you people have died people have a lot of people have done Elon Musk should be in prison did you see that report the other day that they think what was it Matt I shared it with I think it was possibly 600 ,000 people killed as a result of, of killing USAID. Like, and, and is, and is absolutely horrified, as I know we've all been, about the, the genocide happening right now, uh, Israel's committing. I'll, see those numbers, to see 600,000 possibly, just as a result of moving some numbers around in a way, just to put it euphemistically.

0:49:39 Matt: 600 ,000 or more, at least, that we know of over a weekend.

0:50:01 Thomas: Yeah. Like in a way that like they don't care about at all. Elon Musk doesn't care. Republicans don't even get any benefit from it. They're not going to get money back in taxes. It was all done as a jack off exercise for a piece of shit tech bro. And there's going to be no consequences. It's like fucking prosecute these people, you know?

0:50:19 Kat: Yeah.

0:50:19 Thomas: And I love to hear that energy of actual consequences, actual, you knows, truth and reconciliation, conciliation, as Matt said.

0:50:25 Kat: And like these assholes used our industry of like disinformation reporting as a dry run for what they're doing to the federal government. Or like when Elon bought Twitter, like the stuff that he sent to federal workers was almost identical to the bullshit he sent to Twitter employees when he bought it. And now that site is completely unusable. It's like there were so many warning signs. I am a big believer that Trump is not the cause. He is just a symptom of so much inaction, so much caving to corporate interests and to billionaires and massive wealth inequality. And when people can't afford to live when they're scared all the time, it's easy to make them more scared and to say, hey, that's the reason you're scared is because of this person or this group. And that's why people, like, that's why fascism, authoritarianism, and the far right plays cons on easy mode. And that's why people like Zohran Mamdani, like, his message of hope, but also unflinching solidarity, like defiance, I think is really what's important right now. Because it's a lot harder to build something. It's going to be a lot of work. But if there is any, I'm not even sure if silver lining is the word, but if they're going to raze the country as they're doing right now, R-A-Z-E. We can build something way better after because the status quo hasn't been working for a long time.

0:51:46 Matt: That actually brings me to the C on your campaign platform, as long as we hit the A and the B, corporate consolidation.

0:51:51 Thomas: Cookie?

0:51:51 Matt: You've got some great stuff. I just want to give you a minute to talk about what you're thinking with, I mean, again, just the complete, straightforward moral clarity of here's the problem. I just want to give you a chance to talk about that.

0:51:54 Kat: Thanks. Yeah. As far as like congressional reform.

0:52:05 Matt: Yeah. And taking on people like Elon Musk.

0:52:07 Kat: Absolutely. I mean, for the record, I lost my job because of Elon Musk. He sued the company I worked at and they had to lay people off. And yeah, I got deposed by him like a little over a year ago.

0:52:16 Thomas: We could do, we could do hours on that. There's so many things I want to talk to you about. I someday would love to have that story more in depth on the show.

0:52:24 Kat: Bro, I wish, uh, that that deposition was like October 30th of last year, and then I got indicted of like the 28th this year. And so I think just Halloween weekend is a weird weekend for me legally. Um, but like we can't do any of this, any of the good stuff, until we reform and change the system significantly. And that means binding codes of ethics, that means overhauling campaign finance, that means ensuring even if we overturn Citizens United, you're still having an entire electoral system that is based on $7,000 donations and how many people you can call to make a $7,000 donation. So we need public funding of elections, we need to have, my personal, and Matt, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, my personal favorite idea of like expanding the Supreme Court is having revolving justices, so it's not the same justice on every single case. And you can have, because that's what I think should be the one true neutral institution in the U.S. is the Supreme Court, like, the White House and Congress are inherently political. These are all things that are possible. You know, after Zohran won I posted, you know, good things are possible and you don't have to settle. And I just really want to stress that, like, it doesn't have to be this way, we can change things. But we have to not just win a majority, we have to win a majority of that majority. And it also can't just end at the ballot box. Like

0:53:47 Kat: Right now people are engaging in mutual aid and direct action and you know carrying around their whistles all of that is really important to do

0:53:52 Thomas: But we, but the ballot box is so important. I'm so sorry, but like, I, this has been the challenges I'm sure. Like it's, it's been this feeling of like for people who are keeping track and aware of just how shitty things are. I feel like it's It's a rare person. I really think you embody this. Who's able to have an accurate picture of how shitty things are because you can always get the like, oh, well, I'm always looking ahead and things. And it's like, I feel like you don't maybe fully understand what's going on. It's like how taking accurate picture of how shady things are, an accurate figure of how uphill it is, how impossible the billionaires make it, the oligarchs, all that. And also still be like, yes, but we all have to do these things. We all haveto vote. We can't, it's maybe not exciting, But we do need to vote like it is so important. They want to take away our vote for a reason. And every time, I just, maybe it's a little my PTSD of dealing with so many angry leftists who I feel like are sapping the energy often of voting and all that. It's like the way we got here is by not enough people voting. A way we got here is by not enough people voting. Like you can look

0:54:53 Thomas: At 2014, I think was maybe the most consequential election that nobody really thinks about. Because if we had won in 2014, if we kept a majority, then the bullshit with Merrick Garland wouldn't have happened in 2016. And there would have been no motivation in terms of that for people to vote for Trump to get that justice. Like just that snowballed. And votes was it. And it wasn't it's not that many votes like it really is important that people still have the energy to vote, not out of some naive like, oh, it's going to be great where it's going to fix the world tomorrow, but just it is so necessary. And I really hope that people and I so appreciate what you're doing in this positive and Zoran too, like he's always smiling in a way that is so charming, not a naive hope about the system, but an informed resolution that we all still need to do this thing that feels really pointless right

0:54:53 Kat: Someone told me they liked what I said because it was practical idealism and I don't want, if you don't have hope in anything, then, what, like, what's the point? What's the point? Are you mad about stuff? Then you still have hope. Are you sad about stuff? Then you still have hope, because you're thinking, well, there is a different way to do this And electoralism isn't the only way out of this. Like I said, like a big part of my campaign is using our resources to materially improve lives right now. So that way, if we can set this as the rule and not the exception, every election will be a net benefit to the community. And we all need to do that right now, like we need to engage in direct action and mutual aid and supporting each other in, you know, boycotting institutions that are exploiting their workers, don't cross picket lines, like, all of that is just as important. And I think one thing the Democratic Party is really good at is exclusively blaming the voters and not always the candidates.

0:55:50 Thomas: Now. Oh, I love that. That's great. Right.

0:56:44 Kat: But like, the only way we're getting out of this is together. And I just really want to stress that to people.

0:56:54 Matt: I did want to ask, and we're here to talk about you, but I have to shout out your partner, Ben Collins, I think one of the heroes of recent times. And I just wanted to ask you what you think it means that, and again, I spend a lot of time online, but for a lot of us, that the power couple of 2025 is one of of the leading voices, young voices of the Democratic Party, and the CEO of the most trusted news source in America, The Onion.

0:57:01 Kat: I agree.

0:57:16 Thomas: Tim Onion.

0:57:17 Matt: Tim Onion.

0:57:18 Kat: Um, I think it shows some deep corruption in our system, you know, uh, the super rich comedy CEO, um, he has so many Lamborghinis it pays so good, The Onion bucks, we're rolling in Onion bucks, and the sitting congresswoman from Chicago, me. Um, no, but I think like the reason that Ben and I are both in this position is just because we got sick of waiting around for someone to do something. And that's why I just keep stressing to people is like, if you see a change that you were able to make, do it. There are so many things that we don't do just because we're waiting for permission and you don't need permission. This is such a stupid example, but I was at the airport like a month ago and there was the longest TSA line I've ever seen. And then there was a second completely empty line. And just for fun, I went into the second completely empty line just to see what would happen. And it turns out that it was a fully functioning line that no one was using, and no one entered because everyone was in the super long line. And I was like talking to the agent. I was like, why didn't you flag anyone? And she just said, I wanted to see when someone would come. So, which

0:57:30 Matt: There's Onion Bucks.

0:58:28 Thomas: I was going to

0:58:29 Kat: Honestly, hilarious

0:58:29 Thomas: Say, usually they do that. They're pretty good. Yeah, no, I like that. I support that.

0:58:30 Kat: Bit hilarious bit that just made his colleague's life so much worse because she's just dealing with all these people coming in while he's doing nothing. But you know, go into the empty line, like what's the worst thing that happens, you have to go back and go into the other line if it's closed off. Like, they're now, the consequences are getting more dire. But for the most part in life, the worst consequences for your action are being held in jail forever or dying, losing your life. Most decisions you make on a daily basis will not result in either of those. But you can make a lot of decisions on a daily basis that improve your life and the people around you, but you have to actually make them. And it can be scary sometimes, but it's worth it. And when you do it once, it's easier to do it the next time and the next Time and the Next Time. And when you speak out, like if someone's yelling at a service worker or you see ICE on your street and you blow your whistle or whatever it may be, someone else will see that and also do it the next time. And I think in Chicago we're seeing a lot of that, we're all leaning on each other and giving each other strength. And I know I wouldn't have any of my strength without people like Ben in my life, um, without the people that are around me, without our volunteers, without my staff, all this stuff. But it's really easy to like have that sapped from you in this moment. And, uh, just a quick shout out to Ben, because he might listen to this. Um, he's great. If y'all haven't heard of The Onion you should check it out. Um, not that he does anything editorial, because he was also a journalist and knows how annoying it is when people in the C-suite, which once again, very rich, um, try to control editorial, but I'm just really proud of him

1:00:12 Kat: Uh

1:00:12 Matt: And not just the CEO, but the savior of The Onion, again, we're here to talk about you, but the

1:00:15 Kat: The the savior the messiah of the onion is I think what they call him um dm

1:00:18 Matt: Man who kept it alive and brought it up and brought it to what it is today.

1:00:20 Thomas: Did they ever get a hold of Alex Jones's whatever? What was that? What am I thinking of? Didn't they, didn't he try to buy, didn'T they try to get out? Yeah.

1:00:26 Matt: Infowars, still working on that.

1:00:27 Thomas: Oh man. Whatever happened happened to that? I got to check on that.

1:00:31 Matt: But what I'm hearing from you overall is, what if we didn't suck? And I think that is really, that's just a a great way to go. I think that's really that kind of question. You know, it's like that few days, the few glorious days when Tim Walz could say out loud that, you know, these people are weird, right? Just saying that.

1:00:33 Kat: Ben what if we didn't suck oh that day those days rocked those rocked so hard. I want that back.

1:00:48 Matt: Why didn't we keep doing that? Like, we can do that.

1:00:51 Kat: Because we had to bring in a bunch of people who haven't won elections in decades. So that way they could get their paycheck. Um, what if he was nicer to JD Vance? That's a winning, winning strategy. Um. No, but I appreciate y'all talking with me. And, uh, it's always nice talking to people that kind of get the picture. Um, it'S really frustrating out there. How are y'all holding up? Especially as an immigration attorney jesus

1:01:12 Thomas: Not great. Not great. I know I say that. I don't know how Matt's still alive. I'm a fucking podcaster.

1:01:18 Matt: Well, we're still winning. We're still making it happen. You never still do what we can every day.

1:01:23 Thomas: I was like, Kat, thanks so much. Matt, shut up. Thank you so much, Kat. As a podcaster, it's been really hard. It's been hard. There are days when I'm like, ah, can I talk into a mic? Sorry, go ahead, Matt.

1:01:29 Kat: Wait matt where are you based gotcha

1:01:36 Matt: The victims. I'm in Boston, actual Boston. But yeah, so we are playing an easy mode in Boston. We always have been. I mean, we have our federal judges have no patience for any of this. And just this morning, I got yet another habeas, not bragging, because it's just every one of these is getting granted. But, you know, I honestly just coming, being able to come and talk to people and explain what's going on and talk with people like you has given me so much more hope in the second Trump administration than I had when I was just about losing my mind in the first one. So, and things are worse, objectively.

1:01:39 Thomas: Boston.

1:02:02 Kat: Things are worse and I want to leave you matt specifically on this note Um, I'm really glad to hear that because the most racist bar I've ever been into was a Boston sports bar in D.C., um, where the only two people in that bar on a Saturday afternoon were these two white dudes that worked for Tucker Carlson's old producer, sir, because I could hear them, because they were talking really loud, uh, but they were too dumb to notice me and Ben. And, uh, they were talking about starting an all-white Catholic school. So I'm glad that judges in Boston are not those guys

1:02:14 Matt: TC. Oh, no. I, no, I would not go to a Boston themed bar anywhere else but in my hometown. Because that's who you're going to meet.

1:02:44 Thomas: Well, Kat tell people what they can do, where they they can go, you know, let's do calls to action.

1:02:45 Kat: All right calls to action, uh, which are always about me, of course. Um, no, but seriously, do something nice for the people around you. And if you want to support my campaign, uh, you can go to catforillinois.com, cat with a K. If you want to volunteer, you can do so from anywhere in the country at discord.gg/catforillinois, cat with the K again. Uh, and if you live in the ninth district of Illinois, make sure to register to vote, feel free to drop by the campaign office. And if you know someone who lives in the 9th district of Illinois, which is like uptown Chicago, up to Evanston, uh, then west to Skokie, all the way to Crystal Lake, uh, tell them to register to vote and to check us out and tell them to subscribe to this podcast

1:03:24 Matt: Great. Great

1:03:25 Thomas: Oh, thanks. No, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. We're big fans of what you're doing. And stay safe out there. Hey, I mean, we didn't get to talk about like the mistreatment you've had in these protests and man, stay safe. And yeah, keep doing what you'RE doing. Thanks so much for joining us.

1:03:35 Kat: Will do where

1:03:43 Matt: Work. Thank you again.

1:03:48 Clip: This has been Opening Arguments, produced by Thomas and Lydia Smith, with editing help from Peter Baird. The intro is by Thomas Smith. This outro is by Matt Cameron. Support the show at patreon.com/law. Contact us through Patreon or openarguments@gmail.com. Make sure to follow our blue sky at OpenArgs. But most of all, please share the show. Thanks for listening.