Night of the Living Op-Ed! (A Belated Spooktacular)

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:11 Thomas: And welcome to opening arguments the show that helps you make sense of law in the news, or did, back when the law made sense at all. I'm Thomas. That over there is real-life attorney Matt Cameron. How you doing, Matt?

0:00:17 Lydia: It

0:00:23 Matt: I'm haunted by the ghost of the loa, thomas but I'm doing okay getting through happy halloween it

0:00:27 Thomas: Yeah, and yeah, spooktacular, sort of, of sorts, right? This will come out, what, just before Halloween, a few days? Yeah, that's where we should also tell you that the patrons will also be ghosts, because we're recording this ahead of time. Lydia and I will be at QED in Manchester, And so no patron shout outs this time. We have really enjoyed getting back to those, but we're recording way in advance. So we won't have the new patron names. Sorry about that. But next time. Also, of course, Lydia Smith. How are you doing?

0:00:30 Lydia: Is yep yeah

0:00:35 Matt: Should yeah happy

0:00:54 Lydia: I'm here too yay um I'm doing well I'm actually getting ready to celebrate my birthday um and yeah and by the time we get back from the trip it'll be post my birthday so I'm taking this moment to celebrate myself yeah go me yeah happy birthday me that's why the patron shout outs aren't happening is because this episode's all about me and shouting out my birthday so

0:01:05 Thomas: When's that? When's your birthday coming up? Yeah, cool. Thanks for sharing with us.

0:01:08 Matt: Birthday I think

0:01:19 Thomas: So speaking of spooktacular we've we are haunted by the ghosts of the worst takes ever this is great this is fantastic one of these is something I saw on a bleet on a skeet on a tweet on a on a blue what do we settle on that blue sky um an amazing yeah

0:01:26 Lydia: Bad yeah

0:01:35 Matt: We're going with post

0:01:35 Lydia: I don't like any of the other names so

0:01:36 Thomas: And an amazing I like skeet I think it's fine an amazing story that did not age well just to give a preview before the break uh here I'll give a preview political political politico story here's the headline it was supposed to be trump's administration in waiting but project 2025 was a mirage all along hold on it gets better the inside story of how project 2025 fell apart that's from uh august 2nd of 2024 folks so that is the spookiness that minus that is the victorian child ghost equivalent of a take that is uh really I can't wait to dig into how wrong this stupid piece of shit was yeah unbelievable and uh we've got even better ghostly takes go ahead hmm

0:01:59 Lydia: So crazy yeah I know rusvo is cackling right now yeah

0:02:26 Matt: I gotta tell you my I've been saving this one this is a zombie we are going to dig up and and reanimate for everybody a uh do that's monster from 2015 it's just gonna strap him to the table and light him up and see what Ross Douthat thinks about fascism in 2015. It's quite a take.

0:02:45 Thomas: I think it's doothat but whatever I could be wrong um lydia had an even better lydia dute hat which I thought maybe it's that actually let's say dute hat.

0:02:48 Matt: I do that.

0:02:49 Lydia: I said dude hat that that's what I'm gonna call him

0:02:56 Thomas: You fucking dude hat. Uh, I like that better. Um, yeah, that, this one is fun. 2015. Wow. Going way back. Um. And, uh, yeah. That's what we're going to talk about. We'll take our first break brought to you by our amazing page. Well, I shouldn't say the break is brought to the show is brought you by amazing patrons of patrion .com slash law whose names we will read out next week. Uh oh spooky here we go spooktacular after this break okay so we're going to talk about the ghost of the project 2020 do you remember project 2025 that old thing the dead thing that no longer exists everybody it's just a memory oh

0:03:17 Lydia: Another time

0:03:38 Matt: I think one thing just very quickly before we get going is go to the Project 2025 tracker just so everybody can understand just how dead it actually is.

0:03:45 Thomas: Okay let's see project 2025

0:03:42 Lydia: Yeah I literally was pulling that up right now yeah how dead is it actually

0:03:46 Thomas: It might be dead in the sense that they achieved everything they wanted to achieve they're like we're folding up shop we we got, we did it.

0:03:54 Matt: It is project2025.observer, everybody. Great website. Throw them a couple of bucks. They're doing a good job.

0:03:59 Lydia: Buy him a coffee yeah

0:04:03 Thomas: Yeah. Let's see. It says a 48% in, in, within it says 48%. Well, I guess I can pull it up. I can show people what we're talking about. I've never, I've actually never looked at this one, but it's really cool.

0:04:10 Lydia: Might as well oh it's great yeah no

0:04:14 Thomas: So, uh, project 2025, 48 % and we are, God, what are we half a year in? No, a little more than, oh my

0:04:22 Lydia: Look at that countdown until the end of term I did not want to see that I had not seen that before that's like a new function I think yeah it like that's incredibly depressing

0:04:27 Matt: That's painful sorry everybody yeah yeah

0:04:26 Thomas: I I can't, Jesus, that's genuinely depressing. Well, we're going to try to podcast through a depressive episode here. No, I decline.

0:04:38 Lydia: 1200 days no I quit

0:04:42 Thomas: But the point is we are, okay, if the admin starts in January, we are nine months -ish in, right? Something a little more than nine months. 48 % accomplished.

0:04:49 Lydia: Of their 900 page document yeah yeah and if you scroll down um it breaks it out by agency which I think is even more telling right because it's 48 across the entire project Exactly.

0:05:05 Thomas: A hundred percent. Percent.

0:05:07 Lydia: Because they got rid of USAID.

0:05:07 Matt: Because they killed it that was the goal yeah

0:05:09 Thomas: Holy shit. White House, 92 percent. Are they getting rid of the White House? Well, supposed to pin in that.

0:05:13 Lydia: I wish.

0:05:15 Matt: Part of it yeah yeah

0:05:17 Thomas: Oh, show more agencies. Oh my God.

0:05:19 Lydia: Yeah, isn't that incredible?

0:05:21 Thomas: What? Okay. What haven't they done? Let's see. The FDA? I thought they had messed with, oh, one objective? Reverse FDA approval of Mifepristone. Oh that's all they got. Oh whoops. I can't hit the back button. This is is really useful though

0:05:21 Matt: Uh this is a it's a little selective but it's it's a very good set of metrics you know it's not perfect but it is a great tracker and it's I really want to be sure to set this article up before we launch into it because the article of course is about a visit to the heritage foundation to see that tragic 2025 is is actually a ghost it's a mirage it's not happening nothing to worry about nothing to see here folks let's just see let's read a few paragraphs of this thing right

0:05:35 Lydia: It's incredible.

0:05:51 Thomas: I love and oops I love and to show you the title that I read already if I didn't um I love not only like the levels of wrong it's not just that like oh this thing didn't happen it's also the inside scoop of how it didn't happen which I just love which just makes it even more fun the inside scope of how fucking credulous we are here at Politico.

0:06:08 Matt: In august last year yep

0:06:11 Lydia: Oh, yeah. In August, before there was even an election. Yeah. This is August 2024. So don't worry about voting for Trump. Project 2025 is not even real.

0:06:22 Thomas: It was, yep. It was probably five minutes after Trump was like, oh no, never, never heard of her. And then everyone's like, well, he said, he said never heard OF her. So it's fine.

0:06:28 Lydia: So irresponsible.

0:06:33 Matt: And this is a long form piece I just want to point out we can't we can'T read the whole thing so we'll read bits of it but we'll link to it everybody can enjoy the whole thing for themselves let's

0:06:36 Thomas: Of course.

0:06:40 Lydia: All right. You want me to start at the beginning, Matt?

0:06:41 Matt: Do it yeah

0:06:41 Thomas: Yeah, do you, you're going to have to tell us what we're reading though.

0:06:44 Matt: I will yep it's

0:06:44 Lydia: All right, on a Thursday morning in early June, I hopped off a train at Washington's Union Station and walked a few blocks east to get get a glimpse, yeah, like

0:06:51 Thomas: I already just love it. I just love when you're dealing with such a false piece of shit. There I was on early June trying to tell the story of how project 2025 died.

0:06:59 Lydia: An Ernest Hemingway, like, to

0:07:02 Thomas: A term, a project 2025, a term you might not not even recognize anymore. So good.

0:07:06 Lydia: Get a glimpse into the headquarters of one of the most secretive and most hyped organizations in America.

0:07:12 Thomas: Wait, sorry. Secretive and most hyped. So it's hyped, but secret.

0:07:16 Lydia: But no one knows anything about it. Yeah, I think it works. I think it works, yeah.

0:07:20 Thomas: I get, yeah. Maybe like in a Willy Wonka sense, like, like everybody knows who Willy Wonka is, but nobody knows what's going on. Okay, that works. All right. I'll go, I'll give him that.

0:07:24 Lydia: But there's only a certain number of golden tickets.

0:07:28 Thomas: I'm sure. This

0:07:29 Lydia: Project 2025 tucked away inside the main offices of the Heritage Foundation on Capitol Hill. My visit came at an opportune moment. For months, journalists and liberal watchdog groups had been poring over Project 2025's 900 -page policy book titled Mandate for Leadership, the Conservative Promise, which purports to be a comprehensive policy guide for the next Republican administration, including recommendations to restrict access to medical abortion, remove civil service protections for some federal workers, and banning pornography.

0:07:47 Thomas: Is so good.

0:08:00 Lydia: If you've heard a Democrat talking apocalyptically about Project 2025 in the past few months, this document is probably what they have in mind.

0:07:59 Thomas: Oh my God. Jesus. The tone, the tone of this.

0:08:08 Matt: Literally what they have in mind yes yes yes yeah

0:08:11 Thomas: If you've heard some asshole lying about the project 2025 they're talking about this whoever this is should never be read again what do well we'll get to it okay that's

0:08:19 Lydia: In Wardia. I was there to spend two days shadowing the project's leadership, focusing on the lesser known aspects of the project four part plan. In addition to the policy book, Project 2025 was also building a conservative LinkedIn, a database of fully vetted candidates who could fill jobs across future Republican administrations, and an online training academy to give job seekers the ideological and practical chops to make the entire federal bureaucracy match Trump's MAGA ambitions. Project 2025's final part, known as Pillar 4, involves the creation of an 180 -day playbook for implementing the policy agenda, but the playbook would be kept confidential.

0:09:01 Matt: Let's skip ahead to the elevator doors yeah

0:09:04 Lydia: The elevator doors.

0:09:05 Thomas: Barely ahead it's like one paragraph ahead

0:09:09 Matt: We got bigger jumps yeah and

0:09:10 Thomas: -hmm okay but

0:09:11 Lydia: That's The elevator doors opened onto a narrow hallway, which I walked down, expecting to be greeted by a buzz of activity.

0:09:18 Thomas: I wasn't because it's dead and this didn't happen and there's no more project 2025 that's the tone that that's the this is I love this we should do more of this we shouldn't do more of the false bullshit from time past because yeah it's it's not just like like it's It's different to read something now where they're like, well, I don't think this is going to happen or you're making a big deal. It's the absolute gall of just not only is this wrong, but I'm writing a whole thing from a false premise where they are doing all their linguistic flourishes around their false premise.

0:09:21 Lydia: Yeah, they're just paying rent on an empty building. Historical bad takes, yeah? Yeah. Yeah.

0:09:52 Thomas: Well, I expect it to be greeted by a buzz of activity, but it was just a couple of fucking flies or whatever. It's just like all this stuff where you're like oh yeah, you mean the thing that definitely never was dead and is half done in nine months? That thing the empty cubicles

0:10:05 Matt: Remember he's coming two days that were planned like they know he was coming right so he's seeing exactly what they want him to see uh we have to make sure to stress that that's

0:10:12 Lydia: Great point. Yeah? Instead, I entered a silent, low -ceilinged room filled by four empty cubicles a coffee machine and an empty desk covered in cardboard boxes and stray copies of the policy book a half -eaten box of granola bars and a jar of candy on a nearby windowsill

0:10:19 Thomas: Well nothing to worry about then straight copies yeah the image the fucking bullshit writing journalism image of it where it's just like trying to find every linguistic way to emphasize that nothing's happening here oh a tumbleweed blew through yeah

0:10:41 Lydia: Very like romantic style of writing yeah making sure we can all see it with him yeah

0:10:44 Thomas: So good oh oh sorry I shouldn't have interrupted you finish that sentence. Oh my God, it gets better.

0:10:49 Lydia: And a Jar of Candy on a Nearby Windowsill were the only signs that human beings occasionally occupied the space.

0:10:57 Thomas: Oh boy. You know, not, why don't you go write the same thing about USAID? Why don't You go write this same thing about the agency?

0:11:02 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, right.

0:11:06 Thomas: One of many that this fucking thing you said doesn't exist and won't exist ruined and gutted and got rid of. Why don'T You go ahead and check, check out their granola bars, check up their candy. Oh, are there any signs of fucking human life in those buildings? You asshole. God.

0:11:05 Matt: Dark it

0:11:22 Lydia: Keenan gestured toward two adjacent offices belonging to two of the project's seven full -time staffers. This, I wondered, is it?

0:11:31 Thomas: Yep.

0:11:32 Matt: Doesn't take that many staffers first of all they already wrote the book so that the book was a big part of this but they don't need that many people it's still the heritage foundation they've got plenty of other employees but like seven full -time staffers is a lot for something like this to help usher in the next conservative agenda like to do the other stuff they're talking about the next phases but again they probably mentioned throughout this piece that the book is everywhere it's all over the thing because it's already been published okay

0:11:37 Lydia: That was a lot of the work. Yeah. Mm -hmm.

0:11:54 Thomas: You might as well go to like an arsonist's house and be like, there's one of you? One arsonists? You're going to burn down that building? No way. That's a whole building. You're just one guy. Yeah. It's not that fucking that hard to your point, Matt, to ruin stuff.

0:12:04 Lydia: Well especially like Like, even the book that they put together, the 900 pages, it was not people employed by Project 2025. They're conservative voices that have other day jobs. They're just typing up something and sending it via email. They're not going to physically be there ever. They're not going to be eating that granola bar.

0:12:22 Thomas: This is like your average journal. This is probably what Politico looks like. This your average journalistic outlet now is like this mothballed.

0:12:30 Lydia: Yeah. All right. Am I continuing on? All right, over the course of my visit, I came to see that the emptiness of the Project 2025 offices at Heritage Headquarters was a good metaphor.

0:12:34 Matt: For the rest of the setup yeah never

0:12:43 Lydia: For the project as whole.

0:12:36 Thomas: So good. Oh, really? I didn't pick up that you were doing that. Wow. Wow. Mind blown. I didn't pick up on your fucking metaphor.

0:12:49 Lydia: On both the left and the right, Project 2025 had been portrayed as a vast and well -orchestrated operation, either to rationalize and systematize Trumpism, according to some conservatives, or to undermine democracy and implement an ultra -disciplined reactionary regime, according to some liberals.

0:13:07 Thomas: Well, OK, first off, I was going to say the liberal version is right, but actually those are both right. Like you're both you're you're saying, oh, look at how they've been portraying it. Oh, those are Both what they are, though. Those are both accurate portrayals. It is both to rationalize and systematize Trump and Trumpism and undermine democracy and implement. This is amazing. I can't believe this person didn't try to hire a company to scrub this from the Internet.

0:13:31 Lydia: And I don't even think that liberals would would disagree that Project 2025 was set up to rationalize and systematize Trumpism.

0:13:37 Thomas: That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah,

0:13:38 Lydia: Yeah, yeah. Right. According to some conservatives, that's unnecessary there. But conservatives, I will say, would probably disagree that project 2025 is intent to undermine democracy, I think.

0:13:47 Thomas: And, and did, did we really portray it as vast per se, or was it just like, no, it's a, it'S important. And I mean, we make the point all the time that it is somehow, it is like four people who take over our whole government. Like it's not that many people.

0:14:03 Lydia: What one? I mean, we specifically called out Russ Vogt. We specifically said, This guy is the guy behind Project 2025. Let's talk about him. And that was not like, you know, this long series of let me talk about, you know, the hundreds of people that have come together to create this monster. It was let me talk about this one guy. That's a big freaking problem.

0:14:28 Matt: Never don't believe that one person can't change the world and it's the only thing that ever has etc etc um yeah steve bannon talks about being a lunatest right that he he He admires the fact that, like, the very small group of Bolsheviks took over the Russian government. He thinks that's great. That's all it takes. Yeah, let's get another paragraph here just to finish up the setup.

0:14:43 Thomas: This, yeah I read this next one. This is good.

0:14:45 Lydia: Instead, what I discovered during my visit and in my conversations with conservatives involved in the project was a a shoestring operation struggling with internal disagreements, political miscalculation and questionable leadership. Project 2025 had set out to turn Trumpism into a well -oiled machine. Instead, it had created an engine of the same sort of political disorder that defined the first Trump White House.

0:15:08 Matt: So many things wrong with this.

0:15:08 Thomas: Or, or, Or what if, bear with me, what if they would want to appear to be not a very big deal? What if they Would Want, because they instantly saw how unpopular it was when people tried to call attention to it, they're turtling up, they are fucking playing possum and trying to act like this isn't anything and you, a completely credulous fucking idiot, fell for it. Or you are part of it, one or the other, I don't know. And

0:15:35 Matt: As a student of history, can I just say, internal disagreements, political miscalculation, and questionable leadership define the Third Reich, among other places. Like, I mean, there's just a lot of fascism.

0:15:42 Thomas: Like every single administration

0:15:43 Lydia: And everything. I mean, like all these people have huge egos. Come come on, they're gonna be fighting.

0:15:45 Matt: But yeah, this

0:15:44 Thomas: Of everything. I would say that's the Democratic Party, too.

0:15:48 Matt: Always happens.

0:15:49 Thomas: Like what? That's it's every all of them.

0:15:50 Matt: Sure, sure, sure. Sure but especially like historically right-wing extremist fascist governments have a lot of trouble holding together because they always have these big personalities and of course right now the current government is like this yep

0:15:55 Thomas: Because they're idiots. Yeah. The fascist mindset breeds idiots. And so they they bumble through and do ridiculous things and kill everybody. And it's ridiculous as they're doing it.

0:16:08 Matt: And yeah and also the idea of like using like a synecdoche of like narrowing down project 2025 is exemplar of what the white house is going to be or what the trump administration is going be like like it's just a bunch of hacks in a room and in the heritage foundation like this is not and they've already done the book so anyway yeah so you can skip ahead because you know he's just going to do a bunch of summary honestly like this is pretty much the meat of what there is um in this very very long piece this whole setup is pretty much it he talks to several different people he talks about uh paul danz who ends up resigning um and you know she's really emphasizing the way that they don't get along that they're arguing about things that they hate each other you know again typical fascist kind of stuff We should probably skip ahead to pretty much the end, because we're going to get on to the next piece here.

0:16:56 Thomas: I like this this this sentence. But in the end, it may have been Heritage's self -generated hype. Which at times exaggerated Project 2025's scope and overlooked internal fissures that led to its sidelining.

0:17:10 Lydia: Sidelining.

0:17:12 Thomas: Oh, boy. Oh, man.

0:17:14 Matt: But, I mean, anybody

0:17:14 Lydia: Wow, yeah, we are skipping a lot.

0:17:15 Matt: Can read the whole thing if they really want to, but it is just a very lengthy... I mean this is access journalism, right? I mean they saw what he was supposed to see. He saw that. And he was taken through, you know, again, and just completely missing the point. Like so many of our favorite pieces on this program, missing the entire point of what he's talking about. Of why it exists and whether it's intentional or not. I don't even care.

0:17:36 Lydia: So do we have a paragraph title?

0:17:39 Thomas: Yeah, I'm trying to think.

0:17:41 Matt: I'm going to wrap it up here at the end.

0:17:43 Lydia: Like, really scroll down.

0:17:45 Thomas: Yeah, it's very long. I mean, we definitely need to skip through a lot of it, but OK.

0:17:46 Matt: Like the it's it's a long form piece yeah almost all of it yeah um but

0:17:52 Thomas: I don't. Yeah.

0:17:53 Matt: Here we go so if you go down to meanwhile in the atrium that's almost at the end we could just read the last little vignette he's attending an event yeah yeah it's

0:18:03 Thomas: Geez, how far down does this go? Wow, this is, imagine dedicating this much fucking verbiage to being so wrong. Like, wow. It's one thing if you had a text or if you Had a tweet, you know, where you're like, yeah, I think this thing's shit. It's like, okay, no, this person wrote more words than I've ever written in my life on this one wrong thing.

0:18:12 Matt: Very repetitive I'm

0:18:21 Lydia: There yeah all right. Meanwhile in the atrium outside the auditorium, staff were laying out a buffet spread of hamburger sliders and tater tots and stocking a bar with white claws and beer. It was time to do what Washington's conservative movement does best, host a cocktail party.

0:18:42 Matt: Sure they have the best parties, no doubt. No doubt.

0:18:43 Lydia: Yeah, so fun. For a moment, the project's power as the, quote, convener for the conservative movement was on full display. The meeting's attendees started trickling out of the auditorium and a steady stream of outside guests made their way into the atrium and toward the buffet. Fay. Pretty soon the atrium was packed and there was talk of migrating to the roof deck. The room buzzed with the energy of a group of people who were confident that they were in the right place at the right time. And they may not have been wrong. Many of the people in the room could find themselves inside a second Trump White House. The policy book they helped write could become a blueprint for a revamped conservative agenda. The brouhaha between Trump and Project 2025 could could prove to be a passing storm or an elaborate political charade.

0:19:08 Matt: Correctly, yes. No.

0:19:26 Lydia: Or, like the project itself, maybe it was all a bit of a mirage. I schmoozed for a bit, but it was too loud to interview anyone, so I grabbed my stuff and headed for the exit. Man, it's a zoo in there, said a woman in the elevator. Well, what do you expect, said the younger guy next to her. The vast right-wing conspiracy isn't going to run itself.

0:19:46 Matt: Literally, yes, it's not.

0:19:48 Lydia: How would you hear that and then think, like, oh, that's a joke? I I don't understand yeah yeah

0:19:50 Thomas: Man.

0:19:56 Matt: And he spends all this time in these empty offices, and then he sees all these people getting together and networking and doing what Heritage does.

0:20:01 Lydia: Man

0:20:00 Thomas: Which is it? It's a zoo or is it empty? One or the other.

0:20:05 Matt: What have we learned? What have мы learned?

0:20:06 Lydia: It's

0:20:06 Thomas: Boy, what a, that is, wow. That's, that's very bad. That's the most wrong I've seen anyone be in a long time.

0:20:12 Matt: That's a lot of words.

0:20:15 Thomas: Holy shit.

0:20:13 Lydia: Bad wow yeah I are people are people throwing this in his face and did you see that on blue sky is anyone tagging him and ward yeah yeah he's like the guy that followed around jd vance and got like exclusive access to report on him for politico um that's kind of his claim to fame yeah

0:20:20 Thomas: Who, who is this? Does this person have a job still? This is, Wow.

0:20:32 Matt: He's doing his job.

0:20:34 Thomas: How is he not fired?

0:20:34 Lydia: I don't know he lives in brooklyn I don'T know maybe we send a friend of the show liz to go track him down

0:20:38 Thomas: I'm trying to think. He's still writing stuff, I guess. Did he write? I'm looking at his stuff. Like did he didn't have to do like a mea culpa or like oh boy here's how I was the I don't see anything yeah well what what do you mean oh

0:20:44 Lydia: He still works there there's nothing in the article even yeah I mean there's no like like uh editor's note or anything like that like like they're just leaving this piece as is whoops

0:20:57 Thomas: Oh I see what you're saying yeah yeah uh there's nothing like hey um this is all the opposite of reality just fyi whoops yeah yeah I'm trying how james comey became a mega villain watch I'm just looking at his other stuff jeez how could you get get something that wrong and still have your job. You know, if, if a lot of the listeners and viewers completely fuck up their job to this degree, they might expect some consequences, maybe even being fired, but not politico fucking journalists. Okay.

0:21:03 Lydia: Whoops yeah yeah yeah he publishes like recently mm

0:21:32 Matt: Perfect setup for the next piece, Thomas.

0:21:32 Lydia: -hmm I think we're gonna yeah yeah some

0:21:34 Matt: Perfect set up.

0:21:35 Lydia: Someone

0:21:34 Thomas: All right. Well, I can't wait to, to defend the honor of one Rouse Ross dude hat because, Because nothing compares to what we just read. We'll take a break. And once again, a thank you and a nod to our patrons. Support the show, patreon.com/law. Enable this app and get some extra stuff, by the way. Some fun, Law'd Awful Movies. We take on movies and TV shows that involve the law and explain why they're really, really bad often.

0:21:35 Lydia: Else who got to to keep their job. Dude hat.

0:21:57 Lydia: Oh yeah. Oh my God. The most recent one is so bad. So bad.

0:22:06 Thomas: Can't wait to get that one out. So thanks to our supporters.

0:22:09 Matt: Please reward our suffering.

0:22:10 Thomas: Yeah yeah because right now it's just suffering for no clear reason so it'd be nice all right let's get to ross dute hat uh okay

0:22:23 Matt: This is one of my all -time favorite things that

0:22:25 Thomas: Here we go I'm gonna show you cut to headline opinion is donald trump a fascist uh

0:22:29 Lydia: Amazing.

0:22:25 Matt: Has ever been published. Dateline, December 3rd, 2015. Almost 10 years.

0:22:34 Lydia: 2015. Yeah, yeah.

0:22:36 Thomas: See already that is so much more forgivable forgivable so much more forgivable we are I'm going to defend the duke hat honor now we're going to go through this but I'll go ahead and pin I I haven't read this yet I'll going to pin my entire put myself out there cards on the table this is so much everybody underestimated trump everybody was wrong about trump the people who say they weren't wrong or lying you know like nobody thought he would win no but this is 2015 like there's plenty of understandable reason to to be wrong, about Donald fucking Trump in 2015. Now, August 2024, when you write an article about Project 2025, so nothing can compete with that. But, okay, here we go.

0:23:20 Thomas: I've laid my cards on the table. Let's see.

0:23:20 Lydia: But also, if it were me writing this, I would be going back through all of my stuff and be like, wow, I really got that wrong. Can we please add something to the online version, New York Times?

0:23:29 Thomas: Well, nobody's going to come across this anymore. Yeah, I don't know.

0:23:31 Lydia: I don't care. Just for myself, I want to recognize that I got this so wrong. Okay. The Republican establishment, that lumbering beast, still can't decide on how and whether and when to go after Donald J. Trump. But last week, a few Republican insiders floated an accusation that you usually hear liberals sling against the right, that the real estate magnet turned populist is actually a fascist.

0:23:33 Matt: As 10 years ago, Republicans were saying this out loud.

0:23:59 Thomas: Ten years ago. Well, a couple of them tried. It was really cowardly that they... Oh, boy. Anyway, okay. Go on. What a history. What a time capsule.

0:24:05 Lydia: The hook for this charge was Trump's illiberal musings about Muslims and databases and his lies, or to be charitable, false memories, about cheering throngs of Muslim Americans after September 11th. But the charge can be easily fleshed out with more examples. Writing for Slate last week, Jamal Bowie argued that Trumpism, However, ideologically, how do you say that word?

0:24:29 Thomas: And co -ed.

0:24:29 Lydia: Inchoate.

0:24:30 Matt: Inchoate.

0:24:30 Lydia: Thank you. Manifests at, here I am calling him Doothat, so I need to check.

0:24:35 Thomas: Yeah. In Chote, Dude Hat.

0:24:39 Lydia: Manifest at least seven of the hallmarks of fascism identified by the Italian polymath Umberto Eco. They include, oh, that's

0:24:45 Matt: Just want to point out, this piece is completely right on, the Jamil Bowie piece. We'll also link to that.

0:24:49 Thomas: I was going to say, well, yeah,

0:24:50 Matt: It's incredible.

0:24:50 Thomas: Bowie's

0:24:50 Lydia: Seriously how I presented it to Thomas. I was like, this is a piece about how Doothatt is so wrong and Jamal Bowie is so right.

0:24:51 Thomas: The best. And it's funny that, yeah. This was before Bowie, of course, was then hired later to write the New York Times.

0:25:00 Lydia: By the New York Times. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:25:01 Thomas: In the same position, essentially, that Dude Hat is in. He occupies the same job.

0:25:05 Matt: Still doing a good job, but yeah.

0:25:07 Thomas: Yeah. Bowie is one of the best that there is. Any commentary of anything, he's been consistently great. Uh so this is gonna be this makes it even sweeter well

0:25:15 Matt: And he called it.

0:25:17 Lydia: They include a cult of action, a celebration of aggressive masculinity. I like Department of War. An intolerance of criticism, a fear of difference and outsiders, a pitch to the frustrations of the lower middle class, an intense nationalism and resentment at national humiliation, and a popular elitism that promises every citizen that they're part of, quote, the best people of the world. World.

0:25:40 Thomas: Not every citizen but yeah this is um uh my one of my favorite movies um Groundhog Day I just want to get the scene where what's her name is describing kind of who she wants in a man and then yeah Annie McDowell and then uh uh what's his name is uh and Bill Murray is like me me me also I need to do this with Trump a cult of action me a celebration of aggressive masculinity me me intolerance of criticism me again me also yeah it's every pretty much that's trump yeah

0:25:54 Lydia: Andy McDowell? Bill Murray? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Olivia, our social media person, if you're hearing this, can you please cut that together? Like put it together?

0:26:19 Thomas: Actually we could cut that yeah me and then the end is like I'm very close on this one very very close sorry

0:26:26 Lydia: Does this sound like Trump? Well, yes, it rather does. His bravado and performative machismo, complete with mockery of the weak unattractive and disabled his obsession with how we get beat by other nations and need to start beating them instead his surprisingly deft exploitation of blue -collar economic anxieties his dark references to Mexican rapists and other immigrant threats and as of this week his promise to not only bomb and torture our foreign enemies into submission but to round up their families as well no it isn't hard to match Echoas's list to many

0:26:58 Thomas: Did we accidentally click on the buoy piece are we on and end of peace

0:27:01 Lydia: How is he going to, like, tear this apart then?

0:27:03 Thomas: I've a time traveler go back and tell dude hat hey if you stopped here and change the title, you're good. Wow, it's not hard to match pretty much everything on this list of what a, this definitional list of what a fascist is. It's not hard to mash Echoas's list to it. Okay, oh, and he's not even at the butt yet. Are we going to go further?

0:27:25 Lydia: One.

0:27:25 Thomas: Oh, okay. I can't wait until we get to the butt.

0:27:26 Matt: This is six months in, six months into the Trump campaign. If you knew anything about fascism, you could see it.

0:27:29 Thomas: To the campaign. Okay, yeah.

0:27:31 Lydia: One could go, one could even go a little further. A great deal has been written on the question of why America didn't produce an enduring socialist or communist mass movement in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. But the absence of a real American fascism, as opposed to the fascism that liberals see lurking in every Republican president, yes, yes, thank you, is equally striking. And part of the explanation has to be that the American conservative tradition has always included important elements, a libertarian skepticism of state power, a stress on localism and states' rights, a religious and particularly Protestant emphasis on the conscience of an individual over the power of the collective that inoculated our politics against fascism's appeal.

0:27:46 Thomas: In quotes. Scare quotes for the podcast listeners. Oh, fuck off. Yeah, that's why. Why?

0:28:12 Matt: You've just described Donald Trump. There it is. That's Trump right there in a nutshell, isn't it?

0:28:15 Lydia: Yeah.

0:28:15 Thomas: That's so great. There's a reason why conservatism is inoculated against fascism. No, fascism always comes from conservatism. Like, even if you wanted to claim that Trump wasn't fascist or that Republicans today or in 2015, even if you wanted to claim they weren't fascists and, you know, you'd be right about a lot of them back then. It's not like the like talking about how American conservatism has this like protection, this built -in protection inoculation against fascism is so silly because like as opposed to what it only ever comes from the right like there's no it's silly not

0:28:47 Lydia: Well, and to make that point even more clear, when you go back to the seven hallmarks of fascism in his article, a celebration of aggressive masculinity, that's not coming from the left. Please, please. Let's see. A fear of difference and outsiders. Okay. That's not coming from the left." All right.

0:29:07 Thomas: Broadly speaking yeah it's all it is it's so funny it is fascist it's not like conservatism and republicanism is just all the elements of fascist but like only like a like 60 percent ah here

0:29:18 Lydia: But Trump, because he isn't really an ideological conservative, lacks that inoculation.

0:29:24 Thomas: We go oh oh no I thought thought that was the butt. Okay. But now we're still, okay.

0:29:27 Lydia: It's not the butt, yeah.

0:29:29 Thomas: We're still not at the butt dude hat. You you're running so much that you could have just cut it off and you're good. All right. Let's see.

0:29:35 Lydia: And we wouldn't be making fun of you. And while he has a number of obvious similarities to past right populist candidates, from Pat Buchanan to Ross Perot to the Alabama governor George Wallace, he tends to differ from them in precisely the places where fascist temptations can creep in.

0:29:49 Thomas: She you're wow. You it's really funny to see him keep going closer and closer to like, I think what you're saying is he's a fascist, right? Like so far you've built a great case for why he's fascist.

0:30:02 Matt: The only way that you can confront that case is by completely misunderstanding or pretending to misunderstand all the people you just mentioned so how about we do that now that's what we're about to do

0:30:08 Thomas: Okay I'm still waiting for the butt let's see I know he's gonna going to go more into, we're not at the butt yet.

0:30:12 Lydia: All Buchanan, for instance, was a nationalist, but also a deeply religious man whose campaigns were fueled as much by pro-life conviction as by populism. Not so Trump. He plainly regards his semi -professed christianity purely instrumentally and has little time for the religious right's causes perot oh yes go ahead well

0:30:28 Matt: But pat buchanan I just have to mention very quickly Pat Buchanan was an extreme racist like literally wrote a book about Suicide of the Superpower with a chapter called the end of white America, talked all the time about the end of white America like very openly anti -immigrant anti -anti -everything um it's

0:30:42 Thomas: Well, hold on.

0:30:43 Lydia: And like revered by young conservatives these

0:30:45 Thomas: I'm going to defend Dude Hat. What Dude Hat is doing rhetorically here is trying to point out the differences between Buchanan and Trump. So, I think he's actually pricing in that Buchanan and Trump are the same on the things you mentioned. So I actually think, yeah.

0:30:43 Matt: Not different yeah right

0:30:45 Lydia: Days too right oh

0:30:54 Matt: But he's not not he says he's nationalist but

0:31:01 Thomas: No I know, I know I'm saying he's I might be wrong, but just my disagreement right now would be he's not listing everything Buchanan is. He's he's listing the things where he disagrees. And maybe we can accept that it would be implied that he matches on the other stuff. But you might be right that it's a very like it might be very intentional, you know, leaving out of some crucial information. But you could also read it as like he is because he did say before, like he isthe same as these people. Where did he say it? He said he is. Where are we? Where was

0:30:59 Lydia: On racism

0:31:02 Matt: I don't know yeah that's what you're saying sure go

0:31:32 Lydia: It's in the but trump I think article paragraph

0:31:34 Matt: Further down yeah

0:31:34 Thomas: That one? Yeah. He is. Let's see. What do you say?

0:31:36 Lydia: Yeah Yeah.

0:31:36 Thomas: He similarities. So he's obvious similarities, but then he's going to highlight the differences, which is not as religious as Buchanan, but point taken. I think also from Dude Hat's perspective, he probably doesn't see the racism as much as we would like him to.

0:31:36 Matt: The differences but and he's kind of suggesting if you like buchanan you wouldn't like trump or the other way around right but like these are the same people the same crowd it's fine um mainly hey

0:31:57 Thomas: Maybe, maybe. Let'S see. Okay. Let'T see where he's, where he's gone. Maybe Ross Perot will help.

0:32:00 Lydia: Perot was an economic nationalist, but also an obsessive deficit hawk and budget balancer who won a lot of libertarian votes with his promise of a green eye shade approach to government. Not so Trump. He clearly doesn't care a whit for limited government or libertarianism, and he's delighted with a hyperactive state so long as it's working hand in glove with corporate interests.

0:32:20 Thomas: Hmm. Used to be

0:32:21 Matt: You know ross perr wasn't -- was he a republican? He wasn't a republican until 2000-ish so I think that's relevant

0:32:26 Thomas: Well, yeah, he he's I think he's one of the highest vote -getting third -party candidates ever, right? Or maybe the, except for that weird 1912 election or something. Sorry, did he introduce Perot as a what? Oh, populist. Okay, so he wasn't saying Ross Perot was a fascist per se, but was right populist? Okay, interesting. Yeah. But I love that he doesn't care. I'm going to defend Dude Hat again. I mean, mean, I think this was kind of true. He doesn't care a whit for limited government. I think that was kind true. Doesn't care about libertarianism. And he's delighted with a hyperactive state so long as it's working hand in glove with corporate interests.

0:32:33 Matt: Bull moose. That's a right populist so

0:32:44 Lydia: Populist.

0:33:07 Thomas: Not true of Trump 2.0, 100%. Because he's killed the entire state. Good.

0:33:11 Matt: But but if you know the first goddamn thing about fascism a hyperactive state working in hand and glove with corporate interests is a description of fascism like that's really central like he doesn't he's either pretending not to understand what fascism is or he really hasn't read history well

0:33:26 Thomas: That's fair. Yeah let's see. So is he still saying this is different than Perot? So he's saying this is a difference between him and Perot. Perot did want to gut all the government. Trump doesn't. So, yeah, I guess. OK, so to take on your point, what is this in service of? Because if he's saying Trump is not a fascist and then he's comparing him to Ross Perot, like, do you think Ross Perott? I don't really think Ross Perot is a fascism. Like, I wouldn't have called him a fascists. So I guess I guess that I'm not sure where is what is the point of this part? Maybe I'm losing sight of it.

0:34:00 Lydia: I think it's the element of like populism, I guess. And like when you're on the right and populism it's often very easy to like say, oh, fascist, I guess. But.

0:34:09 Thomas: I get well I get now I think I'm going now I might be disagreeing with matt because I think I think we're still on the section rhetorically where dute had is saying and he's not like these people and the dissimilarities are in more fascist ways so it might be that he's saying this dissimilerity with perot which is that he's fine with hyperactive government government, hyperactive state is actually a more fascist thing.

0:34:36 Matt: He's I think he's saying people won't go for it but yeah maybe he is saying that right but he's at the end end of the day he's saying that

0:34:39 Thomas: People, he's not talking about people. He's just talking about comparing Trump to each of these populists. And I think he's saying, here's the difference between Trump and Perot. Trump is, but we're still in the section where he, what did he lead off with? He led off with the, one could even go a little further. So I think he's right now, he is still before the butt.

0:34:57 Thomas: We're still on the, this is more reason why you could view Trump as fascist.

0:34:59 Lydia: We will get the pivot. Yeah, yeah.

0:35:02 Thomas: So, I kind of think he is actually agreeing with with you, Matt. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe I'm giving too much credit. I may be defending Dude too much. Sorry.

0:35:10 Lydia: Wallace was a noxious segregationist, but his racism was bound up in a local and regional chauvinism, a skepticism of centralized power and far off Washington elites. Not so Trump.

0:35:21 Matt: Was racism he just didn't like black people like that's not it

0:35:26 Thomas: No, that's true. Yeah. What does he mean bound up exactly? Because it is true that he also didn't like Washington elites.

0:35:31 Lydia: He was only racist because yeah

0:35:34 Thomas: Oh, yeah. Okay, if that's the claim, that's fucking stupid. Yeah yeah.

0:35:29 Matt: Wasn't but his racism yeah

0:35:37 Thomas: Yeah sure. Sorry, yeah yeah.

0:35:37 Matt: Duche

0:35:35 Lydia: That's stupid yeah not so Trump, when he sounds an anti-Washington note, the argument isn't that local governments can do things better or that local folkways need respect it's that he can do thing better that centralization is fine and dandy

0:35:54 Thomas: Would that be Duce or something? Yeah.

0:35:56 Matt: El duche yeah mussolini yeah

0:35:58 Thomas: So this on this one, I think he's right about the Trump parts he's writing, but wrong about the Wallace parts. I think I think Matt points. So it's like he's so I yeah, I don't know how important this is, but it's funny to be like, well, this guy's racism was, you know, it was more about fucking local chauvinism, whereas Donald Trump's just a racist. And, and he thinks he can do everything better, which that part's right. Like, I think he does nail Donald.

0:36:00 Lydia: So Or a Donald.

0:36:09 Matt: It's weird

0:36:24 Thomas: So like, he's getting so close.

0:36:23 Lydia: Also, yeah, like maybe like a king, maybe like a king.

0:36:26 Thomas: Yeah. Like what, like just take that when he sounds an anti -Washington note, the argument and blah, blah, that he can, that's it. Yeah, that sounds really fascist. Where's the butt?

0:36:25 Matt: Also yeah right right also

0:36:35 Lydia: Yeah.

0:36:36 Thomas: Where'sthe butt? Okay. Here we, we're coming. Okay.

0:36:37 Lydia: It's coming. It's coming

0:36:38 Matt: I just have to point out calling local folkways, like, calling segregated schools local folkways just you know the way we do things around here okay yeah

0:36:45 Thomas: Local. Oh, folkways. Oh yeah. I didn't even know what word you, folk ways.

0:36:49 Lydia: Whether or not I'm sorry, go ahead, Matt.

0:36:52 Thomas: No, No, go ahead. That's funny. Yeah. Yeah, see

0:36:53 Matt: That's it's a fancy intellectual word yeah go ahead oh

0:36:54 Lydia: Whether or Not we want to call Trump a fascist outright, then it seems fair to say that he's closer to the proto fascist zone on the political spectrum than either the average conservative or his recent predecessors in right-wing populism.

0:37:02 Matt: That's fine then he's

0:37:07 Thomas: There. OK, so like end of article this if if the title was well, I guess. OK. Hold on. The title is is Trump a fascist. So actually the title could still work if you end here. And the answer. So the answer is, yeah, probably then I'd be like, wow, not bad, dude. You like kind of called it in 2015. Not bad. Now Now, where's this part?

0:37:24 Matt: A beast sadly not the end

0:37:31 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, no, there's more. Here we go.

0:37:25 Lydia: So is it time for Trump watchers to dust off their copies of It Can't Happen Here and The Plot Against America? Should Trump's rivals imitate the fascism whispers in their party and start attacking Trump as a bouffant -haired Hitler at the next Republican debate? I would say no for three reasons. First, Trump may indeed be a little fascistic, but that

0:37:50 Matt: They should a little fashy

0:37:55 Thomas: But what's a little fascism between friends?

0:37:57 Matt: We got we got a little we'll have a little fascism yet

0:37:59 Lydia: Sinister resemblance is just one part of his reality television meets WWE heel-turn campaign style. He isn't actually building a fascist mass movement. He hasn't won a primary yet, or rallying a movement of far -right intellectuals and Coulter notwithstanding. His suggestion that a Black Lives Matter protester at one of his rallies might have deserved to be roughed up was pretty ugly, but still several degrees of ugly away from the actual fascist move, which would require organizing a paramilitary force to take to the streets to brawl with the decadent supporters of our rotten legislative government.

0:38:13 Matt: Where does he think so many problems here and

0:38:37 Thomas: But, okay. What? Yeah, it may be bad to say, hey, we should kick that guy's ass. But it's so many steps away from, like, kicking that guy. It's like, no. That's like one step max.

0:38:46 Lydia: Oh my Well, and like, he hasn't, he also, he hadn't won a primary yet, Duthat acknowledges. He has no power. So, okay, he's a little fascist -y kind of right now, but he doesn't have any power to actually be fascist. So I'm going to call him not a fascist?

0:38:52 Matt: He

0:39:00 Thomas: Should you go back to fucking Mussolini and be like, well, he's not a fascist because he hasn't won yet. As Mussolino was rising to power. No, he isn't a fascism. He hasn't won.

0:39:15 Matt: Just got some rowdy people showing up at rallies. It's not a paramilitary yet.

0:39:17 Lydia: That's crazy.

0:39:17 Thomas: What's the name of his party? Is it the fascist party? Doesn't matter. He hasn't worn anything yet.

0:39:22 Matt: I mean, where does he think the SS came from, like the brown shirts and the black shirts? This is like, it takes time.

0:39:27 Thomas: This is this is great.

0:39:29 Matt: And these are the seeds. This is proto -fascism. Yeah, good.

0:39:32 Lydia: Second, precisely because Trump doesn't Have many of the core commitments that have tended to inoculate conservatives against fascism, It's still quite likely that the Republican Party is inoculated against him.

0:39:43 Thomas: Oh, poor dude hat. I don't you know, know, I don't think we can dunk that hard on this. Honestly, this is not that bad for 2015. I'm going to go ahead and say it. This is not that bad. But I'm gonna also pivot. I think Dude Hat is more wrong now than he was back then. I think Dude Hat would defend Trump probably more now than in this article. I Think this one is.

0:40:06 Matt: He should know better now. That's

0:40:07 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Like back then, like, I'll be honest. I said a lot of this back. I said I don't think the Republican Party is going to nominate him. I didn't think he was going to win that nomination. I think a lot of people, look, I don't know. Uh, I won't speak for anyone here, but I think if a lot of people went back actually, cause not everybody like me has a like written or online record of what they said and all their opinions at the time. If you were to go back and look at what you were saying in 2015, I think you would be surprised. I Think you'd be surprised here's what I'll say. 99% of people somehow claimed that they knew everything and he was was going to win and all that. And then you look back and weirdly no one did. So I guess none of them were saying it publicly. Some people may have predicted it, sure. I'm not saying nobody predicted it. But a whole lot of people didn't and they don't admit it. I thought he was going to lose the primary. When he won the primary, I thought I was going lose the

0:41:00 Thomas: General. I am proud to have thought that. He barely won. He lost the popular vote by a lot. So stuff like this where where it's like, it's still quite likely that the Republican party is inoculated against him. Hey man, I like, honestly, I'm glad dude hat thought that like I'm, I've good for him. You know, like people thought better of Americans back then people thought better of the, of Republicans. I thought better of Republicans back then. I thought Republicans were a little better than they were. And I was wrong, you know?

0:41:32 Lydia: Yeah.

0:41:32 Matt: So I agree with all that. And I'm not going to say that I saw all this coming. I did start reading books about fascism around July of 2015. And I've read about a dozen since then. I'd have read at least one by then. But I will say on June 15, 2015, when he comes down the elevator, and he starts out his campaign talking about Mexicans, I did have this feeling of people really like this, this is going to work for somebody, even if it's not this guy. And I just think it's I totally I'm with you, though. I mean, I know it's very easy 10 years later, but

0:41:59 Thomas: I, I think I don't, I didn't know you then. And I don't, I' m not directing this at you, Matt, but I think you might be the exception there yeah I think I don't don't take my words as reflective of you I know so many people who comment that they knew it and they didn't like it's just it's it's people do that with everything it's natural human thing like to to think

0:42:04 Matt: I don't know. No, no, no. I didn't think he's gonna win the primary. I really didn't. I'll tell you that. But I did think that something like it it would. Because I could see the way that people were responding to it, and especially just as somebody who watches immigration issues and seeing how effective that was, I knew that if it didn't work that cycle, it was going to work the next cycle.

0:42:17 Thomas: I really I yeah yeah

0:42:30 Matt: And I think that the way he's, yeah, just coming out in ways that Republicans hadn't and just being racist in that open way. Yeah.

0:42:29 Lydia: Like the rhetoric, the talking points and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

0:42:33 Thomas: I just yeah I continually am surprised by it not as much anymore but back then I did I did I was very surprised by that that. I was very surprised by how much shittier Republicans were than I thought.

0:42:49 Lydia: Yeah. His lack of any real religious faith, his un -libertarian style and record, his clear disdain for the ideas that motivate many of the most engaged Republicans. These qualities haven't prevented him from consolidating a quarter of the Republican electorate, but they should make it awfully difficult for him to get to 40 or 50 percent.

0:43:06 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, and here's another point in Doothat's favor. A lot of this was the stupid way they had set up the primaries with the winner -take -all, so maybe Doothatt didn't anticipate the fact that it actually didn't take getting to 50 % really.

0:43:06 Matt: Shouldn't they? They should. Of

0:43:23 Thomas: Yeah once he was winning pluralities and that was was in winner take all primaries boosting him and boosting him it got to the point well actually he only needed like I forget the actual numbers but early on he only needed 25 30 35 percent to be winning every uh um uh electoral whatever you know whatever what am I thinking every um what do they call them in the primaries well it's in the primearies right at the delegate every like

0:43:22 Lydia: He didn't need to. Yeah. Yeah,

0:43:49 Matt: Course,

0:43:52 Lydia: Right.

0:43:53 Thomas: Every delegate uh for the primary you know so and and once a candidate gets momentum like that then it naturally is going to, you know, just, it perpetuates. And then people don't want to back losers and they want to, so, so like, like a lot of this is understandable. I think there's some stuff that's like, all right, you're a douchebag and you're getting it wrong. But like a lot OF why this is wrong, I'm just defending dude hat over the Politico one, which is fucking insane. Like it is so bad to have gotten that, that wrong to spill. I love how we read it for however many minutes we read and we read 4 % of

0:43:53 Matt: Of course. But the

0:44:04 Lydia: It's the compounding. Yeah? Oh,

0:44:25 Thomas: It. It's 10 10,000 million words.

0:44:25 Lydia: I know. The tiniest amount. Yeah Yeah.

0:44:28 Thomas: Um, so sorry, keep going hey

0:44:29 Lydia: And a somewhat fascist looking candidate who tops out where Trump's poll numbers are currently hovering is not something to panic over yet.

0:44:36 Thomas: He said yeah give him credit he

0:44:39 Lydia: Finally, no,

0:44:40 Matt: Fact that he was doing that well, Oh, yeah, good.

0:44:42 Lydia: I know, ever.

0:44:42 Thomas: Said don't panic yet I I agree with that take at that time okay

0:44:47 Lydia: Finally, freaking out over Trump, the fascist, is a good way for the political class to ignore the legitimate reasons he's gotten this far. The deep disaffection with the Republican Party's economic policies among working class conservatives, the reasonable skepticism about the bipartisan consensus favoring ever more mass, low -skilled immigration, the accurate sense that the American elite has misgoverned the country at home and abroad. Mm

0:45:10 Thomas: Well okay so translation um freaking out over trump the fascist is a good way for the political class to ignore that republicans are actually fascists it's like well no that's still still part of it like you're you're right in the sense that like people may have been ignoring as matt I think is was putting his finger on earlier than certainly I did that there's just a whole lot of fascists and the republican party but that's still part he's a fascist that's not two different things you know what I mean like and I love it his naive fucking you know republican Republican privileged Republican edge overeducated, hypereducated Republican view is like, well, he doesn't realize that the real Republicans, that was the best. Where was it? It was there was one many of the most engaged. I love this. His lack of any real religious faith is unlibertarian style and record his clear disdain for the ideas that motivate many of them. Most engaged Republicans. That's just that's just dude had not understanding, as many of us didn't. The Republican party. He was wrong.

0:46:16 Matt: It's fantasy.

0:46:17 Thomas: Yeah. The actual Republican party was what Matt was putting his finger on was a bunch of rabid racists who really liked that the, that someone was yelling about Mexicans and stuff and was sex. And like it turned out and it's, it's sort of a charming way to be completely naive and wrong, but it's still naive and wrung.

0:46:35 Lydia: If Republicans don't want Trump the phenomenon to turn into an actual movement, if they don't want the intimations of fascism in his appeal to cohere into something programmatically dangerous, Then tarring his supporters with the brush of Mussolini and dare fear her right now seems like a short -sighted step, a way to repress the problem rather than dealing with it, to dismiss discontents and have them return stronger

0:46:58 Thomas: Discontents. Yeah, it is. It's hard when you're reading stuff on live for people. It's stressful.

0:47:06 Lydia: And deadlier further down the road. The best way to stop a proto -fascist in the long run is not to scream hitler on a crowded debate stage it's to make sure that he never has a point yeah

0:47:16 Thomas: Shut up.

0:47:17 Matt: The best way is to keep him off the debate stage. But that didn't work. So I never

0:47:20 Thomas: No, that's true. And it's also like that. This is like that take. What did we just talk about that was this? Oh, oh, this was on probably on where there's woke Bill Maher's take of like, here's what we need to do, everybody. You know how the right is constantly making a big deal about all the shouting kids on the left. Just get rid of the shouting. Kids on the left and then it'll be fine. It's like, no, they'll find a shouting kid. That's what they do. There isn't a real problem here.

0:47:43 Lydia: They'll yeah yeah

0:47:48 Matt: Think about what those kids are saying again. Because, you know, obviously, they have no points.

0:47:50 Thomas: It's like, hey, if we give the fascists the fake thing that they're using as an excuse for their fascism, then they'll stop the fascism.

0:47:58 Lydia: Then it'll all all be, it'll all be gone.

0:47:59 Thomas: They'll just find another thing to excuse the fascist. That's the part where he really, really lost it there. But I am going to defend his. No, this is there's a lot wrong in this. But for one, I would invite everyone to go back and look what they actually if they have any record of how they actually viewed Trump in 2015, I Would encourage them to check that out before pointing the finger too much.

0:48:04 Matt: But yeah, sorry,

0:48:21 Thomas: And I just say that as somebody who was very wrong about Trump in 2014. I was not like it was a supporter, but I just thought he was so bad that I didn't think enough people would. I guess I was. I just I wasn't wrong about about trump I was wrong about the voters I was wrong about republicans I thought there was enough of them and like again the way the primary system worked like there's a lot of shitty stuff that went into a lot of weird stuff that went into his victory, um, but also I was wrong about the level of fascism in the Republican party. It's more than I thought, Matt. The typing is killing me, can't do it, uh, gotta MUTE IF YOU'RE GONNA TYPE YEAH WHAT IS IT GIVE US THE RESULTS OF YOUR TYPEWRITER IT

0:48:49 Matt: I had to check something. Yeah sorry about that. Yeah. But I just want to be sure that this was after the Access Hollywood tape, which is when I thought that Trump was actually possibly maybe going to go down.

0:48:57 Thomas: WAS OH I THINK WAIT REALLY NO No.

0:49:00 Matt: Yeah yeah. Yeah it was October was way before my fault so sorry yes way before I'm just bad at math at years yes yes right right that's when yeah but as it is though in this is

0:49:04 Thomas: Way before. Yeah, you're just wrong about that. Because that was closer to the actual election. Yeah. No, this is December 3rd, 2015. I mean, it's pretty early. It's pretty early.

0:49:12 Matt: But there have been months of rallies just to be fair there'd be months and months of rallys and you can still read jamal bowie who's completely correct whether you know that was an accident or not like he saw it that's

0:49:19 Thomas: Well, here's what's interesting. Here's another pivot, though, is that I actually don't... I was expecting this to be more Donald Trump isn't a fascist, but it's actually not. If you read it, the article, and this is the other thing where they don't choose the headlines always, the particle and look at the end, it's like the best way to stop a proto -fascist. So he's calling him a proto fascist. He's saying, but the wrong thing, the thing he's wrong about is don't call him a fascist that won't work. Just make sure that he's not right about his fascism. That's bullshit. But like in the end though, he actually, I mean, he calls him a pro to fascist, like he, he, actually is more, give more credit to the amount that he recognized Trump's a a fascist than I would have thought based on where we were going with this, the beginning of this.

0:50:04 Matt: You know you're right you're right I mean I still think you should be embarrassed about this but I think you're right that he got that part uh but I mean it also but I do think it does totally misunderstand understand fascism the history of fascism how you stop fascism that he's saying all this is like well we can just ignore this and it'll go away that's really what he's seeing like people aren't going to go for this uh because it's you know we can show them a better way and uh we

0:50:14 Thomas: For sure. Yeah. Oh, shoot. We are running out of time. So we got to take our last break and do a quick, quick final thing, but we'll take our final break. This was fun. I'm glad we all agree that Dude Hat is just an all around swell guy.

0:50:24 Lydia: I know I well I yeah, yeah, exactly.

0:50:25 Matt: Didn't we found some nuance too nuance is good appreciate that there

0:50:37 Thomas: He's, Dude Hat, is the Republican that I wish more Republicans were, and, but he's just painfully irrelevant. He's painfully irrelevant.

0:50:42 Lydia: Well I I don't know I I'm I'm sure I'm sure we will cover more of his stuff in the future and maybe we will feel feel differently in those cases

0:50:45 Matt: Are dozens of him yeah oh yeah oh

0:50:51 Thomas: Oh no, no, I, I'm not saying I agree with him. I'm saying I wish that he was like the average Republican. He is just not. Like he, he's a hyper -educated version of Republicans that the New York Times tried to like find so that they could have somebody who doesn't just write in crayon.

0:50:58 Lydia: Viewpoint

0:50:59 Matt: Or that he was right I'm

0:51:08 Thomas: Yeah. Like they're like, well, we got to have a Republican, and this, because this is back when they first did that around 2000. He came on like 2010 at New York Times, something like that.

0:51:06 Lydia: Diversity yeah yeah oh

0:51:17 Thomas: So he wasn't the like Bret Stephens iteration of, so like that first iteration was, okay, well, we got to have more right -leaning people. They used to have Charles Krauthammer before he died. I think he wrote somewhat for them or maybe, no, he was at a different paper, nevermind. But they would have people who were, you know, but they're like, we need more right wing voices. And he's like an intellectualized right wing voice that just just doesn't actually represent anyone in the right wing because no they aren't intellectualized it's just some noises and then uh you know the later iteration was brett stevens and Bari Weiss and that's even worse and now I don't even know what the fuck we're doing so point is he's

0:51:17 Lydia: Wow okay right

0:51:52 Matt: Holding onto

0:51:52 Thomas: Irrelevant and I wish he was more relevant but he's not yeah

0:51:52 Matt: A very special yeah and I wish you were right in this column but he wasn't uh but also I just want to point out I am holding on to one for january 6th which is coming up soon enough we've got a very special do that for janury 6th because he was really wrong on that uh but

0:52:06 Thomas: I don't yeah sorry don't get me wrong he's wrong on like everything thing, but in a like naive way.

0:52:11 Lydia: Yeah man

0:52:10 Matt: But I appreciate your defense though it's good to actually talk it out and to see that you know even dumbest pieces have some points partial

0:52:18 Thomas: I was, I was actually surprised by, again, the end, he calls him a proto -fascist. So, you know, I think he's just doing the, this fucking Bill Maher thing today of like, you just have to make sure he doesn't have a point about the Mexicans being rapists. Like, okay. Yeah, no, I don't think that's it. I don'T think that'S the solution. All right. Final break here. Uh, and then we'll get to our last thing. Okay. What are we, uh, what are we talking about in our list?

0:52:24 Matt: Credit

0:52:38 Lydia: Well so hop in the time machine we left 2015 and now we're back to now we'll back to like very very recently like yesterday um I'm sure you guys saw all over the news I want want to talk about just very very briefly not a fascist trump mr not a fascist Trump demolishing the White House and how that's happening yeah yeah and so I just sent over a video to so we can kind of visually see what's been happening

0:52:56 Thomas: A little on the nose. This is the amuse douche. That's the latter douche. We need the better terminology. We'll figure it out. Hey, here's Trump dismantling the White House. Okay. Can they just do that?

0:53:21 Lydia: No there there is supposed to be a whole process to it I

0:53:26 Thomas: Maybe I'll mute this and we can just have it going. Oh

0:53:28 Lydia: I follow follow um it's like the the park service rangers like the alternative uh man I can't remember exactly what the name of their their group is but I follow them on facebook and they posted an entire thing about what the process is supposed to be if you are making any changes to the white house because it's affiliated with the parks right it's affiliated with like um the budget it's yeah yeah exactly it's absolutely historic and and they say you know like they're it's always been expected That people follow the process as laid out here. There are some ways to kind of get around it. But Trump, as every single time, just finds the ways to get around it and has decided to just decimate the East Wing, which is generally the first lady's area of the White House because

0:53:36 Thomas: I remember that thing yeah geez not this yeah it's somewhat historic that white house oh really

0:54:18 Lydia: He yeah, because he wants a ballroom because she's

0:54:18 Thomas: Hopefully he told warren melania first maybe she's still in an ah yeah

0:54:22 Lydia: Not moving in there. Yeah, she's not.

0:54:23 Matt: She hasn't been there in months yeah which

0:54:25 Lydia: She's not using it. So he's going to turn into a ballroom.

0:54:27 Thomas: That's true he's like no why would you need this part of the white house why would anyone even have it

0:54:34 Lydia: Yeah. But it's you know, he explicitly has said, oh, it's going to cost 200 whatever million dollars, but it's not going to be any taxpayer dollars. I'm funding it. I have these private donors funding it, etc.

0:54:46 Thomas: I'm getting it from the DOJ yeah

0:54:46 Matt: Is much better obviously

0:54:48 Lydia: Yeah, but he also promised nothing would would happen to the White House. Like nothing was going to be altered in any way.

0:54:53 Thomas: This doesn't seem to be

0:54:55 Lydia: It is being ripped apart. This is crazy. This Is absolutely insane. Yeah. With the American flag in the background to like the visual there is just incredible to me. Hillary Clinton.

0:55:00 Matt: This is is a horror movie this

0:54:55 Thomas: Nothing happening I can't imagine if I actually cared about this like I do I grant everything you're saying but I don't I mean I think all of American history is built on bad stuff so I don't I don't have like the same romantic vision of every component of a building built by slaves right I mean like but like still

0:55:21 Lydia: I think that's fair. But But I think the the element to to think about here is like, Like this is not his house. This is not his. Like he is renting it essentially right without having to pay. But Hillary Clinton had had a really good you know remark when she shared this yesterday where she said like this is what he's doing to the people's house. Your house. It's not his. It's yours. And he is destroying it.

0:55:29 Thomas: For sure yeah

0:55:47 Matt: Is also this is a visual metaphor for everything that he's doing I mean this is just with the flag in the background just completely tearing things apart like complete wanton mindless destruction brought to you by project 2025 the complete failure that never worked it oh

0:56:01 Lydia: And then someone had pointed out with um a foreign uh construction company you know like volvo being used to do this it's not even american

0:56:07 Matt: Of course yeah yeah yeah they make all the good stuff

0:56:10 Thomas: Well, that's yeah. That's not the construction company.

0:56:13 Lydia: No no I I just misspoke and saying construction company but like their their product it's you know not even american so yeah very dark um nobody wants this freaking thing And here we are.

0:56:15 Matt: Privately

0:56:23 Thomas: It's incredible.

0:56:25 Lydia: We don't get to pick. Yeah.

0:56:27 Matt: Funded Funded. Privately funded.

0:56:29 Thomas: Privately.

0:56:29 Matt: I mean, the idea that it's fine because I'm raising, it's much worse. Like I'm corruptly raising money so people will pay me off so I can build my fancy ballroom.

0:56:29 Thomas: It's almost worse. Yeah yeah. Crazy.

0:56:31 Lydia: And then attend whatever events I have there that are going to, you know, just better my finances and influence my bottom line. Yeah, yeah.

0:56:47 Thomas: Well that's a proto -fascist for you. It is an actual fascist for you if only we had stopped doing the things that made the a fascist right that was our problem ross doubt that darn

0:56:48 Matt: Happy Halloween, everybody. And calling them fascists. We shouldn't have done that.

0:57:03 Thomas: We shouldn't have called him fascist I mean I agree that that didn't really do any I'm not I don't think it was bad but it also doesn't really doing anything

0:57:06 Matt: My mistake. No.

0:57:09 Lydia: And just call them weird. Call them weird, we're gonna stick with that.

0:57:11 Thomas: Yeah we can call him fascist but it's also like it's another false premise to where like that that's not you also should just call things what they are you know like if you're looking at everything as a way to stop someone like sometimes we're just saying He's a fascist because he's a fucking fascist. It's not that people are saying that is like, oh, I know what I'll try. It'll be this. He's affectionate. Like maybe some of the politicians he's talking about, maybe that's the decision they're making. But also sometimes people are just looking at a fascism saying that's a racist. That's what it is.

0:57:44 Matt: Including historians were saying that. So maybe we should listen to them also.

0:57:47 Lydia: Yeah. Well, and the video we didn't get to do last week for the No Kings Rally was showing, you know, folks from around the world. And one of the clips I wanted to play for you all was in Berlin, Germany, where they basically say Donald Trump is a fascist and I am against Donald Trump and fascism. So if that makes me anti -fascist and Antifa, then that's what I am. Just this ridiculous thing but like in Berlin they're saying this guy is a fascist this guy is a problem yeah

0:57:47 Thomas: And Jamal Bowie. Yeah.

0:58:18 Matt: What would they know?

0:58:19 Lydia: Yeah

0:58:19 Matt: Whatever. Listen to the Germans.

0:58:20 Thomas: Those naive people over there don't know real fascism. All right. Well, Well, another fun episode of Opening Arguments. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. Thanks most of all to the patrons. patreon.com/law for making the show happen. Have a spooky and safe Halloween out there. And yeah, and don't worry.

0:58:39 Lydia: And then they'll come back to life after this like zombies see

0:58:42 Thomas: The Politico pieces from August 24, 24 can't hurt you. No, they actually can though. Nevermind. See you next time. All

0:58:51 Lydia: Y'all