SIO494: Autism and ADHD, Part 2

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:13 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 494. I'm your host, Thomas Smith, and it's part two with Dr. Jenessa Seymour on ADHD and autism and these mental health outcomes. Can't wait to get to more of this conversation. Much fascinating stuff. I learned a ton. Back and listen to part one if you haven't, of course. Dr. Jenessa Seymour today is going to take us through even more of this really good study and hopefully the beginning of of better understanding of folks with autism and adhd So I think that's all there is to say here Why don't we uh take our usual break which you can avoid if you go to patreon.com/seriouspod support the show and after that we'll be on with Jenessa is one of many things that that has always told me that I'm the adhd and not the autism because I don't have that at all in any way shape or form I have the I have the opposite where I can't and I go the opposite Where everything everyone says I'm ADHD in five steps ahead of what they're actually trying to get at.

0:01:07 Jenessa: This is me all day every day

0:01:17 Thomas: And like, sometimes I'm like, I'll answer stuff that's like, Sometimes I can go too far the other way, where I'm Like, oh, they want to know this. And they want To know, okay, and so so this is like, no, actually, they did want to know the relationship to the person that you're picking, you know, like, I sometimes go too Far the other Way. And I don' don't know what the difference is there but I do this is really interesting because another thing that that'll maybe be like a little more tangible from that whole bullshit uh that happened was people whenever someone would accuse me of uh having like alternate reddit accounts or something like oh

0:01:16 Jenessa: Oh yeah oh

0:01:47 Thomas: That's thomas's alt and I was just like and lydia and I laugh about this a lot because there's nothing that's less me there's Nothing that's further in the universe from me than then making another fucking account and pretending I'm not that like, and it's just like so infuriating. I don't know if this is common. I'm trying to think of what the common ADHD thing would be other than maybe if this istruth, if this isn't anything or if this was just hyper -specific to me and I just cannot figure out what, like I am, I am hyper -focused. I want to know what these ADHD kids are, are happening to them. Like, I really am curious about this for me. It, It, it, feels like it's this idea of, I am pretty straightforward by necessity. Like, it's just how I am. Like, I'm going to say kind of what I, cause I just can't fucking remember anything. I'm not going to remember the lie that I told someone that's not going to work, you know, like I'm just, don't you know who I am? Like, don'T, I'M JUST THIS ALL THE TIME. And I do wonder, maybe that is part, I don't know. I could see that being part of it where, where it's like, oh, you think I'm like doing, when it resonated with me when you said like, oh, you think I'm saying something to try to accomplish something or whatever, or to try to like trick someone or to trying to like make someone feel bad. It's like, no, I just answered the question. I don't know. Like I just, you know, I said it was, I thought it was true. It's interesting. Maybe that is that. Yeah.

0:03:08 Jenessa: Happens to me a lot. And I find it so frustrating that like, like, think of the hell of both of these. I will often take it literally answer exactly the question you asked me and then approximately two hours later go oh shit because I just figured out what was like the power play five levels deep chess of what was and it's not five levels deep chess it's just regular ass neurotypical american

0:03:34 Thomas: Because normal people couldn't do that. You're overestimating the normies.

0:03:39 Jenessa: They knew exactly like they were just following the culture they were raised in that just says, this is how you ask the question. And when you're trying to be polite and ask people to do X, you don't just say, do X please. You ask it in this funny roundabout way. And if you're like, do you want to do this? And I'm just like, no, of course I don't. Well, who the fuck would want to doing that? And then later I'm like, damn it. Oh, they were trying to ask me to do, fuck. I had this happen once where somebody asked me to help them learn to cook something. And I love to cook. And I went over and I cooked something. And the next day she was like, hey, have you ever heard of the cleaning while you cook? Where you use a dish and then you wash it. I was like no, I never heard of that.

0:04:24 Thomas: Just they're just wondering.

0:04:25 Jenessa: Fucking year later I was Like, shit! I was supposed to apologize for dirtying every dish in her house and I never said sorry. It was like years later when I put together I think your average neurotypical person would have figured that out. In the like immediately instead of like after pondering it for an hour or a year

0:04:47 Thomas: Think that's right. Right. Think I mean, not like not all the time, but I do think that that usually like, oh, what's the reason you're asking? I feel like, again, I'm too far the other way where I'm like, why are you asking me this? OK. And it gets to the point to me, I get depressed because it just just feel like everybody thinks they're always getting away with these things all the time. And I know what you're saying. Just say the, you could just say, like, you just be like, hey, things got a little messy here. Like, yeah. And then, okay. And Then that comes back to, that Do you not think that you can just say that to me? Is there some reason that you think that I, like I, cause you could could just say hey that that was dirty and I'd be like oh whoops sorry you something

0:05:09 Jenessa: See well yeah just be so I think there is partly a neurodivergence thing here of neurotypical person we are like oh oh, you're trying to like say it without saying it. And they're like, no, I just, I didn't, I didn't even think I just said things because that's how I was taught to say things. And we're like oh, why do people do what they do? They say things like this but they really meant this and why would, why would one not say exactly what they meant? Why would one say it slightly differently? It must be because it's like no, they just, they just talk and they just say things and they don't know what the, I genuinely think like how did I go undetected for so long because I grew up in a culture where all my little hand flapping was just like yeah Italians they gesture a lot and oh you're so loud you can't control the volume of your voice yeah it is Italian and

0:05:34 Thomas: Going on here if everyone's autistic in italy and it's like we don't no because there

0:06:24 Jenessa: It be that my people just statistically I mean my boyfriend's also italian and adhd like knows but like the culture almost covered it up in a way because it was like nobody just new york italian american specifically nobody was just like oh could you maybe just if you wouldn't mind it was Like hey wash the dishes I'd be like whoa okay shit where am I going like get hey like there was nothing necessarily rude about like snapping in your face to get your little kids attention because like where'd you go like that was just just like cute and fun. Like, Hey, hello, little kid. As opposed to like that.

0:06:25 Thomas: You go oh that would drive me insane boy that's

0:07:00 Jenessa: I understand that like California culture, that would be like the rudest shit on earth.

0:07:00 Thomas: Crazy yeah no it's I'd punch punch somebody if they did that to me yeah

0:07:08 Jenessa: No, that's like almost funny in my culture. Like so my culture accommodated me. One might argue.

0:07:13 Thomas: That's interesting or just yeah just blend it in and maybe that's the same thing I don't know it

0:07:19 Jenessa: I will say that being accused of something I didn't do that does show up very weird in the factor analysis it pops out for the adhd kids but not for all of them it seemed to segregate itself maybe people understood the question differently or maybe that's

0:07:34 Thomas: Also could be the ruminating like how much of that is I I don'T know what what it is because I hear both ways I hear autistic people talk about rumination but I donT know if that's because they're also adhd because so many of them are I know the rumination I mean adhd it's fucking right there in the name man like being Being, not being able to stop thinking is, the whole thing. And so is that part of it where it's like, we don't, so we don'T know from the questions if it's more frequency or if it just bothers them more. We, WE DON'T KNOW if this is happening at the same frequency to the normies, but they don't care as much, or if it's happening more often to the ADHD people. We don't really know, right?

0:07:51 Jenessa: Nonstop. Hm. That was the part where when you asked how frequently does it happen and how much does it upset you? They were basically the same question. So essentially, when you're asking 11 to 16 year olds, does this thing happen very often but not bother you? They don't like say that yeah

0:08:15 Thomas: Cancelled out, kinda. Same, yeah. Okay. OK. I think humans have a hard time because there is no like baseline frequency that you would know, like how often should that be happening? How the fuck would you know? So they are going to base it on the feeling they have of this sucks and I hate it. So it's happening too much. Point is, we don't for sure know it might be happening the same amount to everybody, but we're just ADHD. People are just ruminating more on it and it's more unpleasant oh

0:08:51 Jenessa: So in theory um is supposed to be a questionnaire of common upsetting events right so depends on what it means happen to right like uh teased and bullied. I think that's relatively objective, but like not allowed to do self -regulation strategies. ADHD and autism both were like, yes, they don't let me. There's things I could do that would make me feel better and they don' t let me do it.

0:09:19 Thomas: ADHD kids have an idea of what that is because I fucking didn't I still don't know what that ist interesting

0:09:25 Jenessa: 11 to 16. But yeah, I mean, I feel like I started at that age to have a sense of like, I can definitely tell you today obviously like in my 30s but um lots of things that um for example when people this will be much more obvious for a lot of autistic people like if you tell me look at me when I'm talking I'm like you even understand how much I would pay attention better if I didn't have to look at you and it's not an oh I oh you're yelling and I don't want to look At your face it's just I like literally if I'm trying to make eye contact I'm doing the of like, okay, how long does one make eye contact? Now, the problem is I can't tell because if I stare at you trying to see and count how long you make eye content, then I am inappropriately staring. But if I look away, I can tell if you looked away. So how the hell am I going to do the math on how long one makes eye contact. So I'm just looking at you and then looking at a thing on the wall and then look at you. And then looking, and then I'm looking at my hands and all these little behaviors, like just, didn't play a like nonverbal game on my phone and have the deepest conversation we've ever had in our lives and

0:10:30 Jenessa: A tv show is not visually interesting to me I'm doing a number game on my phone and it's not interrupting me and if you say like put your phone down I I'm thinking about like the meaning of life and where do whales go in the winter and like not paying attention to this tv show so there's strategies I can do to self -regulate um

0:10:50 Thomas: For sure I was just reacting to like I don't how a kid that age knew that in school like that's pretty cool I don' maybe it's just better now like because I would have had no idea but me a lot there and it's all stuff I fully feel as well in terms of like, well, not the that eye contact. So that's really interesting to understand, because that was one of the first signs for Arlo, which doesn't seem to look. And then also, I remember early on that one time I picked him up and he asked me something to my mouth. He was like, dad, I have a question. And he was talking into my mouth and I thought it was so cute. Yeah, that was so cute, but I also was like that's kind of interesting.

0:10:57 Jenessa: Maybe maybe yeah cutie not exactly

0:11:29 Thomas: I feel like he thinks that's where the me is because that's the sound or something. I don't know. That was my guess. I didn't know, but it wasn't the norm. Oh yeah, it's really noticeable in him, but the thing I think he might have a double because there's the adhd part that's the just no stuff is more interesting elsewhere and I feel like it's two subtly different things where seems to me I again I think don't I'm autistic so I don'T have this knowledge you're describing like if you're forced to look at someone that act is really distracting and like it's like unnatural and then you won't be able to hear because your your mind's going crazy on all all that I have that at all but I do have the like my eyes just wander everywhere because I'm adhd and like things are just you know I can't pay

0:11:29 Jenessa: Neurotypical behavior yeah yeah it's it's noticeable possible mm -hmm yeah

0:12:17 Thomas: Attention you know like I'm just if also if someone's fucking boring I'm juste like gone you know and it's not yeah it's just it's not like oh I can' t look you it's like man just you're boring i' m sorry I gotta leave I'm my eyes are trying to get out

0:12:19 Jenessa: The is interesting holy shit right dude I that all the fucking time when they're like you need to pay attention I'm like how about you be more interesting like you could just stop telling me shit I don't care about that would be an option shit.

0:12:35 Thomas: It' s not all on me yep I'm god that' s another one is like Like, and this is going to start getting kind of weird but I also feel like for one reason or another, I just feel like I'm like three steps ahead of average interaction. And I'm just like done once I'm, like, maybe everybody is that, but for, think the boredom is a real hard part of it where it's like, I know what you're going to say and you're taking too long and I'm already bored. Like I just, I'm juste bored. Just, just get out of here, you know? And it's like, that doesn't bother everybody, apparently.

0:13:02 Jenessa: So there's actually data on this that, see increased creativity on average in people with ADHD. Noticed this in my own life. Like when I need to read or write, I need my meds. Oh my God, I need MyMeds. When I'm doing theory work, I like on purpose don't take my meds because one thing my brain does really well is a to b to c to d to e like boom really fast and I will look back at it and go that one didn't make any goddamn sense but that one that's interesting you just connected some things that seem really far apart and where it can come across strange socially is you say a and in my brain I go b c d e and then I say f

0:13:27 Thomas: Ooh, I love that. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yep,

0:13:49 Jenessa: And people people are like, what the fuck are you talking about?

0:13:54 Thomas: Maybe.

0:13:54 Jenessa: If I'm talking to my ADD or autistic friends, that conversation probably looks psychic to other people, because they say A, and I say B, C, D, and they're like E, F, G, and it's just like...

0:14:09 Thomas: But they're not always going in the same fucking, there's not one alphabet. Then it could get even crazier.

0:14:14 Jenessa: This is where, again, I think New York culture covered this up, because New York has has a very interrupty culture. And so it's totally okay. You're trying to, you're doing the trying to come up with the word. It is completely, not just socially appropriate, but like a good, polite thing. Jump in with the Word I think you're trying say.

0:14:25 Thomas: Where I was meant to be.

0:14:37 Jenessa: Because if it is the Word you're saying, you keep going as if you never stopped talking. I just inserted the Word into your sentence. And if it was the wrong Word, you go, no, and then you try again. Like we're helping each other holy shit I moved to illinois and I was like I am the rudest bitch in the room like everyone's pissed when I do that but like new york culture that's totally acceptable so you can do the the other person said a and I went bc d and they can be like yeah or they can be like no no it's like it doesn't actually hurt the conversation it still does like neurotypical new yorkers are not necessarily like in love with me but um it was worse it was worse in other places finding that disconnect if that makes sense um

0:14:37 Thomas: Yep, Yeah. Yeah. So we're this is we should we should. We need it. Hey, we need to be issued a normie like to by the library to keep us.

0:15:45 Jenessa: Sorry okay let me pull me

0:15:47 Thomas: So, yeah, I want to make sure you take me through that list again of the things that they're. Yeah, because it was really interesting.

0:15:47 Jenessa: Pull us back yeah okay so is our list of like 25 things that like generally bother kids, but our data is going to be what ones bother some kids more than others. Like all kids sometimes report some of these. Okay. Piers talking behind my back. That was autistic kids really jumped out.

0:16:11 Thomas: ADHD kids.

0:16:13 Jenessa: Both. Neurotypical kids show up, but the autistic kids realmente show up. So we have a coefficient one is just neurotypical versus neurodivergent. Do we see this as part of the factor? And then we had a second factor level that tries to pull out ADHD and autism. Do We See Anything There? They never found a factor that was like, so we have some kids with ADHD, some with autism, some of both. There was no question that like uniquely pulled out the kids with boths, only they say this. That didn't really happen. So factor level one is just do neurotypical versus neurodivergent kids say this more and then factor two is can we separate out the neurod divergent kids or levels to this so the first level here peers talking behind my back um actually got neurotypical kids say that bothers them the autistic kids are also saying that really bothers them so it's kind kind of a weird separation. Unexpected weight in line, it's just the autistic kids. We weight inline. In a cue, it says. Weighting inline, is unexpected.

0:16:56 Thomas: Interesting. Wait sorry not adhd I'm losing mind now what what are I think I'm not understanding unexpected yeah yeah yep are are you saying that the adhd kids are fine with that or you're just not splitting adhd and autistic in this really

0:17:31 Jenessa: So the ADHD kids might have said it bothers me, but they didn't say it bothers me any more than the neurotypical kids did. Like the neur prototypical kids might have also said, yeah, I hate it. It's specifically the unexpected part, I think, is what's pulling this out, is that you have a 16 -year -old autistic kid is like, good God, if know I'm going to have to wait in line, it's okay. But if all of a sudden I have to wait on the line and I was not hyping myself up to be stuck standing here that that might be what's differentiating this.

0:18:03 Jenessa: So like that layer one, does this separate out if we group all the neurodivergent kids together on average and then all the neurotypicals, we don't get a difference on this. But if we then just look only at the neuroDivergent Kids, we can separate out the autistic versus ADD with this. The autistic autistic kids are like, that drives me nuts. So it's very unique to them.

0:18:03 Thomas: The fuck huh wow that's wow that'S kind of mind -blowing I can't wow I don't know how how to think about that all right sure

0:18:31 Jenessa: Tell me off. Didn't separate anybody out. Everybody hates it. Nobody likes getting yelled at their teacher. Neurotypical, neurodivergent. It doesn't bother the ADD more than the autistic or vice versa. They just, they report this as an event that they don't like. So there's some questions that pull that out. Schoolmates ignore me. Same thing. It just kind kind of bothers everybody.

0:18:53 Jenessa: Teachers don't listen. That was very unique to ADHD. It didn't show up for the autistic kids. It's the ADHD kids. Why are my teachers not listening to me? don'T understand. That Was Neurodivergent in General. So Autistic and ADHD both say, my teachers don'T Understand me. Minute Change of Plans. Again, Autistic and ADHD coming together that's really bothering me see

0:19:03 Thomas: Wait really last minute change of plans I no problem with the last minute changing plan huh I thought that would be an autistic but not adhd I'm last minute about everything the hell's going on here

0:19:30 Jenessa: Why you'd say that um guess it's hard for me to say like what because it does it bothers me because I'm a planner and if I planned and I was like I'm gonna do this and this and then you're like just kidding we're doing this and I'm like, no, I made plans. Oh yeah.

0:19:44 Thomas: There there is this stopping a task thing that's common with adhd with especially with the kids like transitions conditions, so there's a sense that that could maybe be it, but yeah, that's unexpected on my end. Interesting.

0:19:51 Jenessa: Could be that. Being able to do tasks bothers everybody. Encountering a challenge in school, a barrier you can't overcome. They're all bothered by it. Neurotypical kids, nobody likes it. In a chaotic classroom that pulls out all neurodivergent kids. It does not separate ADHD and autism. The chaos, like just screamy classroom, not into it. Boring lessons or tasks is ADHD specific. So when you're not separating out neurod divergent in general, like when you average ADHD and Autism together, you don't get this. It's only when you look at ADHD by itself, do you see boring. I'm done. I's out of here let me outside um for being stopped doing enjoyable things uh sensory discomfort it separates out neurotypical and neurodivergent like uh general so adhd is also reporting this but the autism kids are really reporting sensory discomfort losing and forgetting things adhd specific uh in trouble for losing or forgetting things that bothers everybody So when it happens, we all hate it, but the ADHD kids are specifically bothered by the fact that they lost something, by the mere fact that I forgot something. Where could that be coming from? I think that is, it just happens to us more.

0:21:06 Thomas: That makes sense. Right. More.

0:21:22 Jenessa: Anybody's upset when it happens but we just have it happening all the goddamn time understanding others that was all neurodivergent but especially autism uh

0:21:21 Thomas: Yeah okay, that's why I thought I'm so sorry because of my memory. What specifically was the question again? A kid is filling this out. What are they seeing? I think I'm losing that out again how upset does this make you okay

0:21:37 Jenessa: One oh so you're gonna rate one to five um I I think they rated how upset does this make you because essentially when they used to ask upset and frequency the frequency didn't help so now they just say when this happens how much does it bother you and it turns out that's a perfectly good measure for also how often is it happening to you um remember if it was that one or if they dropped the level of they dropped the level OF upset and they said how often does this happen to you that's what it was because

0:21:59 Thomas: That's really interesting okay oh oh shit that seems different okay I

0:22:16 Jenessa: Is the problem, right? Is when they do the math, it's not different. I think it's like you're saying, we just remember what bothers us. So it's, like, how often does this happen to you? And you're, like. All the time. Because it's driving me crazy.

0:22:28 Thomas: I guess but I don't I know boy that's weird there's ones where I would think it'd be different if you're telling me it always cancels out it always cancels out and I'll I'll forget it but

0:22:36 Jenessa: Cancels out on average. And it's sort of. You also have to think about just mathematically how much easier it makes our. At some point, we are canceling out so many cross factors.

0:22:43 Thomas: Well that and just the stuff you have to ask someone like is better right I mean so okay so where did I stop you because there was a reason I was trying to think of what the specific wording was but

0:22:52 Jenessa: When you have hundreds of kids yeah uh understanding others that really hit autism peers teasing and bullying that really hit autism I was surprised to not see adhd show up there as much I I would have thought adhd would also be like yeah yeah

0:23:10 Thomas: That's one where I think if you ask the someone phrase does this bother you when it happens I I have a hard time imagining there's any difference there like everybody hates being bullied like what what the fuck but if the question is how often does this happen then yeah I could imagine differences

0:23:20 Jenessa: I that's why I'm remembering yeah uh end up going with frequency because Because the intensity measure was just, like, everybody says things that happen a lot are just, like, maximum bothersome. They're 11. Like, when people said this happens all the time, they also said, and it drives me fucking crazy. Like, yes.

0:23:34 Thomas: That's a different thing yeah okay I think I get it now I think I get it no right that's because most of these things are already unpleasant things they're not asking getting a free ice cream cone so okay so it's not I think I understand it a little bit differently now Now, it's because you would get a different answer. I'm convinced. I swear to God, you would Get a different Answer. If you only ask them, does this bother you? I feel like almost every kid would be like, yeah, I don't like being bullied. That's just how it is. But if the question is, how often does this happen? And then in addition, there was an additional question of the magnitude of how much it bothers you that ended up canceling out because it's like the people who it happens to a lot. They pretty much also answered that the same. Okay. I think that I think it's a subtle difference, but I think It makes sense. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So gotcha. Okay.

0:24:22 Jenessa: That's the way to understand it. Yeah, way to understand it. The kids who reported it barely happens, they still might say when it happens, it bothers me. But the kids who say it happens all the time are never like, but it doesn't bother me. They're like, no, it happens. Happens all the time and I am maximally upset about it. Yeah, yeah. I was surprised to see that peers teasing and bullying not pop out for ADHD. I think it's because there's probably like a distribution there. Some ADHD kids are super popular.

0:24:43 Thomas: It sucks. Yeah, was gonna say, yeah, that doesn't surprise me that much. Because I think that ADHD can go kind of both ways there. And maybe on average, it cancels out is what you're saying. Because, yeah. There's ADHD comedians. There are people who are real popular. Really just depends. I think... That's interesting. But so that actually tracks for me

0:25:02 Jenessa: That's, yep. Yeah, one that pops out as very ADHD specific, and holy shit is the thing that ruined my life in school being told to try harder I will commit murder over this question oh my god I can't tell you how many times I would be sitting there working on something and um would happen to me in math a lot where like I would misplace a decimal or like to this day if I see squared I'm just like right multiply by two like I know I like I have a brain I know you don't multiply by two I know that that's not what that means but like I'm just doing arithmetic not I'm not mathematically conceptualizing I am doing arithmetic because I'm a calculator for no reason because we just live in a stupid world where we teach math stupidly I just misplace a decimal and I get to the end and I go hmm that's all right or the teacher walks walks by. I have the most distinct memory of this in second grade. My teacher walks by and points at it and goes, that's not right. I'm like, well, shit. Run through it again. I get the same answer. Ran through it. Again, I get this same answer. And the problem is, they think of me as this little smarty pants, so they don't want to help me. And after like 20 minutes, I am just crying in my chair. Harder, try harder, and try again. What

0:26:28 Jenessa: Do you not get about I got it wrong like I obviously don't understand something they can clearly see where I made the mistake and there is this total lack of comprehension how could I possibly not see the mistake I've made and it's like because I have a different brain than you and you don't understanding me and just happened to me all the time this this perception that I just wasn't trying lying that

0:26:54 Thomas: It that feels like different things to me that you're describing the two stories like one that feels adhd like you're misplacing a decimal that actually seems different to me than what sounds like more of an autism thing but I could be wrong where it's like no if I'm doing it wrong there's not gonna it's It's sort of like in the office where they tell the guy to re -crunch the Excel If I'm getting the wrong answer, it's because I'm doing the thing I think it is and it's wrong. Doing it again will do nothing. That feels to me like a very, like kind of a rigid thinking thing, which you either understand it and you don't. And like being told to, so so I'm trying to think. So specific the specific question was just being told to try harder, being

0:27:34 Jenessa: So the idea is autism adhd kids are furious about they are experiencing a lot it's bothering them that they are getting told this a lot and I got this so much like my teachers had this expectation I would be an a plus student and I wasn't

0:27:48 Thomas: Wait. Uh -huh. Okay. So right. Once again, going back to the understanding that now question is, how often is this happening to you? There is no question that's like, how much do you hate it? Cause for me, this would have been all the time, but it didn't bother me that much. Cause I was kind of in agreement for me I had the thing of, I can't fucking do homework. I don't know why. I wish I knew why I agree. I agree me do I, but And I just wouldn't. And

0:27:56 Jenessa: Oh wonder if this is gendered because I internalized it, but also it could be a support thing. I had a lot of support at home for my homework.

0:28:23 Thomas: I didn't I don'T KNOW IF IT WAS GENDER I DEFINITELY MY YOU ALSO THINK THAT LIKE FOR ME IT JUST I WAS UPSET THAT I COULDN'T DO MY HOMEWORK ALSO AND SO I DIDN'T I DIDNT TAKE IT AS AN ADDITIONAL OFFENSE THAT SOMEONE WOULD TELL ME THAT I WAS LIKE YEAH I AM FUCKING UP I AGREE YOU THAT ALSO MIGHT JUST BE A VERY ME THING LIKE I TEND TO BE PRETTY REALISTIC LIKE I'M LIKE YEP NO I DONT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK'S HAPPENING happening here? I totally am with you. Yeah, I should do my homework. What is happening?

0:28:38 Jenessa: See, I always had a bit of a defiant streak and I think it, may have come from getting, maybe in some ways getting talked up so much of like, my parents were like, you're a little smarty pants. And my teachers would say that and it was like well so why aren't you doing this why can't you do this like parents were usually pretty good about it but my teachers like you know they're managing 30 kids and they're getting paid nothing and they'RE JUST LIKE DO DO IT and experience I often had was like on some level similar to yours of like this very beating myself up of like I I have many distinct memories of just like being so upset about like, I want to do this and I can't do this and I don't know why. And I'm so, yeah.

0:29:27 Thomas: I I'm going to stop you. I think think we both completely missed this one for a very specific reason. This is a safe place. I could be wrong for everybody. Not you, the listeners. We're on a podcast right now. Sorry. Here's the thing. It's the same reason why it was very hard to get a diagnosis to begin with, because you and I, I believe, are coming from the position of being ADHD, but also high performing students. Whereas the majority of people with ADHD, it's actually a reason they for your fucking report cards as a kid to diagnose because people tend not to well. I think what's happening is we're both relating this to how we were. But in there's just a whole awful lot of ADHD kids who are doing terribly in school. And so they're just being being told, Hey, just do, just to do better. Try hard. Like what the fuck? Think that's what's happening. Uh,

0:30:22 Jenessa: There's statistical thing going on here. We have a little bit of the issue of, yeah they use underperforming in school to diagnose, diagnose which means it really looks like kids with ADHD underperform in school so we kind of purposely don't diagnose people like you and me and then we're like see the dumb and it's like no fucking god damn it like you selected for the kids who were struggling but also a huge part of how I got missed was this kind of talk I was talked to as if I was an A plus student and then I went back I had to I was trying to do something to get accommodations and I was like yeah I was like an A student these report cards are going to ruin my application and then I went back and I'm like son of a bitch I was not an A student and I literally looked at I saw on a fifth why does my mother have this I had a fifth grade report card that had oh you could see if you looked from like the back looking at the writing through it I was getting like check minus or like b or c on my math for like quarter one two three and then he

0:31:17 Thomas: Probably the autism.

0:31:31 Jenessa: Put the like check plus a he put a sticker over the the b's and c's that said great job this motherfucker literally papered over my failure like

0:31:31 Thomas: Pull it together for the fourth. Why? Maybe I think I'm not getting, you know, who is the he in this?

0:31:46 Jenessa: Was looking at my report card that had the one spot where I struggled was teacher, my teacher who made this report card, right? I had A's and A's, and maybe a B here or there. And then I had like a literal C in a math thing. By the end of the year, when I finally had done well, he stuck a great job sticker to cover up the C. He literally covered up my deficit.

0:32:12 Thomas: Another thing going on that I had was you need the pressure. So I would get bad grades all year until the end and then I would kind of recover. So that's but I actually do think this this was us coming from a very particular bias. I don't mean to say that everyone with ADHD is not a good school, but I do think you and I, I believe we're forgetting that there's an awful lot of kids who don't care about school and with ADHD have an even harder time. And so they're coming in the messy backpack. Nothing's organized. They forgot all of their books. They don't care. And someone's like, can you just fucking try kid? And they're like, God, I'm sick of hearing that. I actually think that's what's going on. And you and I were interpreting this in a very different lens.

0:32:18 Jenessa: Same yeah yeah well yeah yeah yeah sure but I think that would be the idea right is like if adhd is actually and and we know this it's not correlated with iq you. Are kids who are very smart. There are kids, who are, yeah, yeah extremely problematic, but to the extent it has any utility. ADHD itself is not a learning disability. It is not correlated with learning disability, it is just kind of, it might be correlated with some learning disabilities, I think, But in a different like backwards, like certainly brain injuries can result in the following disabilities, including ADHD. So in an extreme sort of way. But the other way around, no, like having ADHD does not tell me also you probably are going to do poorly in school.

0:32:59 Thomas: Well, an IQ is also problematic, but yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Really?

0:33:40 Jenessa: How do I describe this properly? Really. It does predict grades insofar as, like, if we looked at the distribution of grades, we expect it to be lower than the neurotypical distribution because, not because you can't do it, because we expect you to struggle in school, which is an extremely unaccommodating environment, and when we get you the accommodations you need, we expect your to shift up. So some kids, that means that we'll shift them from failing to a C. And that C is the performance we expect in an accommodating environment. And for you and I, that might shift us from a B to an A plus if only we are properly accommodated given an environment that fits us really well.

0:34:22 Thomas: I just needed someone to make me do my fucking homework. I just have the executive dysfunction hardcore. Core that was mainly it so but anyway sorry yeah

0:34:30 Jenessa: When I taught, I just taught classes that didn't have homework. And the neurotypical kids were like, but will I, how am I supposed to do it without homework? Work I I need a little grade every week and I was like no you don't you're fine and the ADD kids were like fuck yes this is my favorite class I I don't do shit I show up I listen in class I ask questions you think I'm smart and then I take a test and I do great on the test and that's the end of it woo like they were I made a class that I was just like screw you I'm gonna finally accommodate me. Forget everybody else. Exactly. So is the point of all of this? We could keep going through these questions, but we're almost at the end of them.

0:35:01 Thomas: Us by us very interesting yeah we should we should uh get to the point you're right hmm

0:35:24 Jenessa: Let's pull it all together. Okay, there is a couple of things. When we go through, how are we going to answer this hypothesis? Hypothesis know that the uh and autistic kids are experiencing not just different upsetting events in school but way more it's uh more upsetting for them and it is way more frequent that they are are encountering things that are different from their neurotypical peers. And we could probably guess that, hey, things that would bother their neur prototypical peers all the time, the kid complains, the parent complains the teacher notices it, yada, yadda, and you slowly but surely work the school environment to try to be better. And for the thing that only bothers 10 % of kids, we just kind of haven't done anything about it. We've tried to tell the kid to adapt up to the environment and not the other way around. We look at this EB index, we take your score on that questionnaire, and that includes all the questions, not just specific to your disability. Look at the neurotypical kids. How frequently are you encountering, just like during the school day, things are upsetting you? Is predictive of everything. It is predictive of emotional dysregulation adhd traits autistic traits um separately predicts depression and anxiety so even in a neurotypical kid the more they get exposed to these upsetting events the more likely they are to have depression or anxiety when we control for these factors and we just look at okay we know the autistic and adhd kids are experiencing this more often and we know that experiencing this more often contributes to anxiety and depression depression. So what if we control for that? It almost eliminates the effect.

0:37:17 Jenessa: We are still seeing a slight correlation where ADHD and autistic kids are still more likely to have depression and anxiety. And that might lean a little bit towards a sort of medical hypothesis, a emotional regulation issue, but it drastically decreased the correlation. So what that would mean is like for an autistic kid who is experiencing this less often, they are way less likely to have anxiety and depression to be showing those symptoms.

0:37:17 Thomas: Interesting yeah

0:37:55 Jenessa: This is also true of a neurotypical kid. Anybody who experiences this less, essentially the connection between ADHD and autism and anxiety and depression is greatly reduced if we control for the extent to which they are experiencing this upset in their environment. This just nagging all the time. My teachers don't listen to me. I got to wait in line. I can't do these things I want to do. I'm not allowed to self -regulate. I, I'm getting accused of things I didn't do. And I, everybody's telling me to try harder and I feel like I'm trying as hard as I can and ah, ah, that's a huge factor.

0:38:32 Jenessa: So it might be a little bit of both. There might be a medical model where having these disorders could just make it harder to regulate your emotions. But also, if your school is not accommodating you, you are going to be constantly like just emotionally assaulted. How could I ever regulate my emotions if I'm just being stressed out all day you know um

0:38:56 Thomas: And it's I mean you're talking depression too that's a long that's kind of a longer term deeper thing than just yeah than just that so it'S about the cumulative kind of effect of that through your whole life, I guess.

0:39:02 Jenessa: And yeah we we are based on those statistics we are worried about that developing into adult clinical depression like this is the time when you are vulnerable to this settling in So I love that, you know, Nothing About Us Without Us, they brought in ADHD and autistic kids to give them the feedback. We didn't have adults who are neurotypical say, I think I know what's going on with these kids, which like sounds silly, but a lot, a lot of research on ADHD and autism is adults who are neurotypical deciding for us what we need. I mean, think about the definition, you know, if we were focused on not what it is about me that bothers other people. But what is it that's bothering me? I would not call this attention deficit hyperactivity. My hyperactility does not bother me one bit. I would call this procrastination forgetting disorder.

0:40:07 Thomas: Yeah. Fuck.

0:40:08 Jenessa: That's what bothers me.

0:40:09 Thomas: Christ. Yeah.

0:40:11 Jenessa: That is the worst part. My inattentiveness, you know, be more interesting. But my forgetting, that feels clinical. My procrastinating, that feels clinical.

0:40:11 Thomas: You're right about that. Unable to start things disorder. Yeah?

0:40:28 Jenessa: Initiation disorder. What bothers me, but it's been defined around what other people notice and what bothers other people. Me pacing and flapping my hands bothers other People. So that's what they called it. They called it sit the fuck down disorder.

0:40:47 Jenessa: So, you know, it's been a longstanding problem that people who are neurotypical get to define who we are and what's wrong with us and what we need. I love that they brought in kids of that age, kids who are autistic and neurotypical and ADHD and said, what's bothering you? What's on your mind? Let's develop a questionnaire that you think would measure what bothers you in school? Why are we having adults who aren't in school tell us what bothers you? What is that?

0:41:18 Thomas: Yeah.

0:41:18 Jenessa: Also love they didn't just say, well, these are the kids who are diagnosed clinically with autism. So you go over here. Gave a questionnaire to the kids coming in because we know there's a huge underdiagnosis problem. So if you were in the the so -called neurotypical group and gave you the ADHD questionnaire and you were through the roof, you went in the ADHD group for this study. Now, they're not diagnosing you. For your own personal purposes, if you want a diagnosis, you've got to go to the doctor. But for purposes of this study, you qualified and we are not going to put you in the neurotypical group and average your score in with the neuratypical kids and then be like, well, I guess this is what ADHD kids look look like. It's like, no, you missed a huge group of underdiagnosed people. So just a super thorough job. I mean, the factor analysis mathematically, they went through and had so many checks and corrections for, oh, the math is beautiful. So thoughtful. And I love that this study is ongoing and just the introduction of this thought process of like how much of the issues these kids are struggling with could be addressed if we looked at just something this simple they are telling me this is bothering them I could change that tomorrow what if I just did that you know we are not going to fucking rfk jr oh like I found the cure I know what it is that's not fucking happening. Not going to tomorrow have like the cure. I don't think that's ever going to happen. And

0:42:58 Jenessa: Know that I would want it. I DON'T know who I am, if I'm just like, yeah, just cut part of my brain out. Like, who the, that doesn't make sense. We can today look at some of these things that are bothering kids and be like, hey, especially if you know your kid as this student has an ADHD diagnosis. Are telling us when you say try harder, they are losing their mind sitting in that chair. Just don't say that. Like how hard would it be to not say that and see if they develop healthier?

0:43:27 Thomas: I or I was thinking that a different way, which is I just think that they probably need a different thing they're probably not like not it everyone needs to be in fucking school to be honest with you or the same kind of school like it might be that they have a special interest they have a thing they would hyper focus on and be very interested in if they were allowed to do it but

0:43:40 Jenessa: Could we approach it a different way?

0:43:48 Thomas: We do need we I want public school you know as much as that's going away I want private school but it's not one size fits it's all it's got to be like we've got to find a way to accommodate more people uh and I do think it could be both of those things oh

0:44:00 Jenessa: Some of these questions provide extremely simple answers. Having too many options this is extremely upsetting for the adhd kids if you know they don't like that like just put them in the lunch line and this is what we're having for lunch and

0:44:10 Thomas: Hate it let's take away all my options I wish someone would just live my life just dictate everything I don't want to just tell me every step of what I'm supposed to do somehow I can't I can'T do it too many options yeah

0:44:18 Jenessa: I yes I real I hate it so much if it is inconsequential to my life just literally don't even ask just make the decision for me without even telling me there there were options.

0:44:36 Thomas: Yes don't ask me which thing I want to choose. Just give me a thing. won'T be mad if I don't like it. That's like, that's just sometimes I lose. I don'T care. That'S better than having to decide something. That doesn't matter. That's the key for me. It's like, it's, if it's a thing, that's arbitrary. I can't do it. I'm just like, I don't.

0:44:46 Jenessa: We literally. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. This bothers me. I'm exactly the same way. It like disrupts my whole day. And like we know the ADHD kids are telling us this upsets them. And it's literally contributing to anxiety and depression that could become lifelong. What cares whether it's internal to them or if it's extra? Just stop doing that. Like you could change their life by just not doing that little, little, little things.

0:45:18 Thomas: Just don't yeah really interesting study is there anything else from the study uh we need to know but I mean it sounds like what's the they usually put this don't they usually say the next thing they want to do you know do they give us the next step of how they wantto tackle this more because it soundslike there's a lot of of promising stuff here.

0:45:24 Jenessa: The big stuff. Is an ongoing study. I think they're following these kids, which is going to be super cool. A it's like 700 people are in this study. They're following them over a long time. Validity of the EB index, the emotional burden index. The here would be to take that then and start using it in other settings? Could you use it with, obviously, you want to test it again, replicate this with a new group of people. It against other questionnaires to really demonstrate, like, yeah, compare this to these other questionaires that are not designed by and for kids, and you're going to see just how different your answers are and possibly how not predictive they are of the real problem. In theory, if this is honed in on you ask kids what really bothers them and you found out what really bothers him, the questionnaire that is not really getting at what bothers them is not going to actually correlate with the anxiety and depression because it's not asking the right questions. So a lot of it is going to be continued validation of that questionnaire. Is a 12 -month longitudinal study. So they're going to keep following these kids for a year and how can we reduce stress for these kids. So at some point trying intervention, kind of like what you've been talking about. I think there's a lot of promise here. And I just love to see researchers coming at this with a positive attitude

0:47:12 Jenessa: Like regardless even if you are coming at this from a medical model like yep this is no we're not doing identity this is just a disease and it's terrible you can still look at humans with respect you know uh like having researchers who are I clearly coming at it from this social model they talk about the neurodiversity model but also just being respectful that like yeah they're 11 but they're also people and they have something to tell us um love it I love this study. Very thoughtful. Very well done.

0:47:43 Thomas: Fantastic. Very well done to you as well for taking us through that. Appreciate it. And that all of us parents of neurodivergent kids are really, scared to raise kids in this environment. And I think this sounds like something that could really lead to putting a dent in some of those numbers. You know, If we could reduce the percentage of autistic people or kids that report depression even a bit, that's life -saving. So it's really good that some people are trying to understand it from a more comprehensive and kind of empathetic standpoint. So thanks for taking us through that. That was a lot of fun. I hope people survived this ADHD discussion of ADHD.

0:48:24 Jenessa: Have fun editing this three

0:48:27 Thomas: Nope, won't ever start. Don't, I'm JUST THIS ALL THE TIME. And know what you're going to say and you're taking too long and I'm already bored. Like

0:48:52 Jenessa: I got to mow the lawn.