Atlantic publishes Caitlyn Flanagan's love letter to Bari Weiss for some reason

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:11 Thomas: Welcome to Vapid Response. We're back. It's Opening Arguments, the podcast and YouTube show that helps you make sense of law in the news. I'm Thomas Smith. I am nobody, but that's Matt Matt Cameron. He's a real life immigration attorney. How are you doing, Matt?

0:00:25 Matt: I think you're somebody, Thomas. And I mean,

0:00:27 Thomas: Not true. Wrong. You're losing credibility with the audience, please.

0:00:31 Matt: Compared to the people we're going to talk about today who aggressively just don't seem to want to understand anything, you're two of my favorite people who get things. Happy to talk to you.

0:00:36 Thomas: I will say, I think I'm qualified to run CBS News now, I guess. If the qualifications are now such that Bari Weiss can do it, then, you know, like, I'm close, which I shouldn't be close. I shouldn't be close to that qualification. And of course, producer Lydia Smith, how you doing?

0:00:43 Matt: Doubt.

0:00:57 Lydia: Hello. I got a break again. You guys keep giving me like a week off every now and then, which is nice, but happy to be back.

0:01:04 Thomas: Well, you temporarily turned into

0:01:06 Lydia: I did. I, yeah, it's an evolution, right, that we all go through.

0:01:06 Thomas: Jake Tapper, which is a thing that happens, you know, like teen wolf movie or whatever, where Michael J. Fox turns into a wolf and like plays basketball and stuff. It's hilarious. Lydia has that, but with Jake Taper, it's been something we've dealt with this whole time. Yeah. It's taking some getting used to.

0:01:19 Lydia: It's very interesting.

0:01:23 Matt: You can come back anytime.

0:01:25 Lydia: Thanks.

0:01:26 Matt: Open offer.

0:01:25 Thomas: Well, yeah. Only when the full full moon or whatever yeah uh no so excited to be with you oh and we're adding some features today we're going to finally give our patrons at patreon.com/law who make the show happen at all give them the shout outs they deserve again um we're

0:01:40 Lydia: So happy to to be back with that.

0:01:41 Thomas: Getting yeah getting organized excited to do that uh why don't you give us a little preview folks of what we're gonna be covering before we take our first break though remind

0:01:50 Matt: Well, sure. Sure. We've got two pieces by two different people about two very different subjects. Theme here being people who just don't get it. So we've got a piece about Barry Weiss taking over CBS and how that's just fine and she's going to do great. And then we've Got another piece by the one and only Jonathan Turley, a singular legal mind. And I don't say that as a compliment about why and

0:02:11 Thomas: Us who that is who's jonathan turley

0:02:13 Matt: What do you want to give it?

0:02:14 Lydia: The lone conservative legal commentary voice, basically the guy that Fox News will always bring on to sweep everything Trump does under the rug. He won't he won't say that that's what he does, but that's What he does.

0:02:25 Matt: And Congress. Sure. And he'll Congress brings him in for the same reason, actually. So very, very convenient.

0:02:31 Lydia: Sane wash the Trump administration. Yeah?

0:02:33 Matt: But yeah, he's here to tell us about why Antifa is very real and why we should all be afraid. So see how that goes. And then we have a returning character, Josh Hammer. You may remember from last month.

0:02:40 Lydia: What a thought like we would have had Josh Hammer back on this.

0:02:47 Thomas: I don't totally remember except the name triggered like instantly I was annoyed and is that I don't remember I'm getting I'm like a psychic I'm getting vague really annoying fucking ben shapiro energy is that okay

0:02:53 Lydia: It's accurate. Yeah. Yes.

0:03:00 Matt: That's the one. We've got a real aliens be predator, let them fight situation with Candace Owens and Josh Hammer, so got to hit that at the end.

0:03:08 Thomas: At least the predator had a moral code right one of them did where they like they only fight people Or something who can actually fight. So I think that's an insult to predator to compare. All right. Well, yeah, that's that's our agenda. Excited to get to it. So much to talk about in terms of Bari Weiss and everything. But we're going to take our first break. And as we do, I'm going to do our patron channels. These are the Hall of Famers at Patreon dot com slash law. I used to go in ascending order, but because I feel like, you know, our top patrons need front, you know, front billing, I'm gonna go in descending order of like how amazing their value is as patrons as humans are.

0:03:17 Lydia: I know. Yeah you've ranked

0:03:48 Thomas: I've ranked them. This has nothing to do with Patreon. I just took a look at each of them and I was like, okay, this is how in

0:03:48 Lydia: Them. Yes Yeah, this one's had good names, have made me laugh.

0:03:55 Thomas: A eugenics, you Know, eugenic is coming back. I feel like, so I'm kind of getting into that, you No, this Is in order of support and top patron starting with Mitchell thank you to classic libtard FRED R GROOTHUIS oh and this of course is a chance for inside references and uh jokes but we gave them no warning this time so maybe next next week when we shout them out or the week after uh FRED R GROOTHUIS Chris Waltrip Big Easy Blasphemy RhondaTheDork.com hors d'oeuvres in the court before we report Milo Meadsong is fighting petty tyrants

0:04:00 Lydia: The best. Yep. Longstanding.

0:04:40 Matt: Well, thank you for that. You did.

0:04:41 Thomas: Anyway, rest in peace to that patron who no longer is with us. We took too long. But it was a nice thought.

0:04:45 Lydia: They waited too long.

0:04:53 Thomas: Still don't know what that means, but I love it.

0:04:55 Matt: I love it.

0:04:55 Lydia: You're still not president. They've been advocating for you. You.

0:04:59 Thomas: Bob Loblaw's Law.... Podcast and the Cincinnati Kid. That's our first third of the Hall of Famers and we'll do a third each break.

0:05:06 Lydia: The top third, the top

0:05:08 Thomas: That was the top third. It's all downhill from here.

0:05:08 Lydia: 33 % of people in the world. Yeah.

0:05:12 Thomas: By jeans. No. Anyway, let's take that break and then we're going to dig into it.

0:05:23 Thomas: Well, folks, what annoying, awful thing do we want to start with this week? Like, oh yeah.

0:05:27 Lydia: Bari Weiss, of course. That's who we're going to start with.

0:05:31 Thomas: Okay. Should I pull this up?

0:05:31 Matt: This is where there's woke bread and butter, but also very appropriate for opening arguments, I think.

0:05:34 Lydia: It is. It's so funny. We were watching John Oliver this week and I was like, man, he got ahead of like three different stories I was working on with this Bari Weiss news. So we're going to be focusing on this piece out of The Atlantic written by Caitlin Flanagan.

0:05:52 Thomas: There it is. There's the title.

0:05:52 Lydia: And before we get into the meat of the article here, I want to talk a tiny little bit about Caitlin Flanagan. First of all, she is an anti -trans voice with The Atlantic. She'll say she's not an anti-trans voice, but she is.

0:06:04 Thomas: So I love the Atlantic, but I maybe, do I have a false memory? I thought there was a time when it didn't have shitty writers. Maybe I'm misremembering, but it's at least right now, it's this weird dichotomy of some of the best writing there is, some ofthe best, you know, journalism and then the worst. I don't know why we do that. Why? Why? Just do the one, one, not the other. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's right.

0:06:23 Lydia: Viewpoint diversity. Yeah, that's probably

0:06:26 Thomas: Viewpoint to DEI for, uh, for conservatives.

0:06:26 Lydia: What it is. Yeah. So in her claiming that she's not anti -trans, just a couple little tweets that I'm going to throw out here for people to consider. Last year, what a lot of trust we are placing in men, not in trans women, but in men. Suddenly they have access to all sorts of women's only spaces. All they have to say if asked is that they are women. Cool.

0:06:47 Thomas: No, it doesn't exist.

0:06:49 Lydia: And then just a few months ago, they

0:06:50 Thomas: Doesn't exist! Men could already pretend to be a janitor. They could pretend to wear a wig and not be trans. They already could do that.

0:06:56 Lydia: Could just sneak in. They

0:06:58 Thomas: I love the idea that this was some new thing because, well, trans people means they can, men can go in bad. No, if there's some bad actor and then their premise is that it's bad actor. Their premise isn't, well some of them most their premise is usually like now this allows men to like pretend to be women it's like well they could already done that like haven't you seen Tootsie or whatever they could do that you could just like unless they think the previous social paradigm was if a woman looks at all like maybe they're masculine you just wouldn't let them in a public bathroom like like there's some hall monitor that does that no they already could could do that

0:06:58 Lydia: Could sneak in and wait in a stall. Yeah. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Mrs. Doubtfire. Yeah,

0:07:33 Thomas: It's just the the most made -up problem yeah

0:07:36 Lydia: And then just a few months ago, kind of doubling down on this anti -trans rhetoric, trans people have existed throughout history and until five minutes ago, none of them took puberty blockers. Cool. Yeah so saying

0:07:49 Matt: I mean, not five minutes, but they weren't recognized as people.

0:07:50 Thomas: Until yeah

0:07:52 Lydia: It's not something that like that people should have access to now?

0:07:55 Thomas: It's like diabetics have existed forever and until five minutes ago when insulin was invented or whatever like yeah when we invent new treatments for stuff and it's good I'm

0:08:05 Lydia: And there's so many articles that she's written with The Atlantic that I'm sure we could spend tons of time breaking down, but we don't have all that time today. So let me just leave with this regarding Caitlin Flanagan. It's a family affair with the right. So her sister is married to Andrew Klavan of The Daily Wire, if you are familiar with The Daily Wireless. And just the other day, her nephew, Spencer Klavan, Andrew Klaban's son, was named to the faculty at New College of Florida to teach classics, which Chris Rufo was basically having a wet dream over because that's what he's been wanting from the beginning was Hillsdale's model to be applied in public schools as well. And that's What It's Looking is happening. And Spencer's husband is the Daily Wire's general counsel. So this is a whole little family affair very tied into the goings on at the Daily Wireless, Caitlin Flanagan. Again so just if you're consuming her content just consider that

0:08:57 Thomas: Know

0:08:57 Lydia: Right

0:08:57 Thomas: It's something we talk a lot about on where there's woke um where are the podcasts where we we do more of this kind of stuff, but as much as they've taken over our country, it really is like five people. It's very weird. There's not that many of them in it. Well, and it actually makes sense because they have to, to fake, they have bootstrap, you know, they Have to, to AstroTurf an entire conservative version of like law of scholarship of whatever. And there just aren't that because you know those things are wrong. You know, there aren't a lot lot of conservative college professors, because if you get an education, mostly you learn that being conservative is stupid. So like, there's not that many of them. So it fits that like, whenever we're looking at one, they are not six degrees of Kevin Bacon or whatever. They are one Kevin Bacon away

0:09:09 Lydia: Incestuous right yeah

0:09:44 Thomas: From every single other person in the movement. It's, it's crazy. They're so tightly connected.

0:09:50 Matt: They're often worth more than Kevin Bacon. A lot of money in these things.

0:09:54 Thomas: And it's like, I'm trying to think it's not really true I mean, yes, obviously, there's insular media, you know, but like, if you think of who we talk to, like, we'll have a expert on our show, you know, who's some professor that no one knows. And they're not one connection away from fucking Barack Obama. You know, they're not one connexion away from AOC or from, you know, I don't know who's that I'm trying to think like the Young Turks. They're Fox News now.

0:10:17 Lydia: Hillary clinton yeah

0:10:20 Matt: Well. They are all Antifa members, as we're going to learn in the next piece so let's let's concede that now yep

0:10:23 Thomas: Well, that's a different story. Yeah, of course. But but isn't that interesting?

0:10:27 Lydia: Yeah.

0:10:27 Thomas: It's like it's it really is true of this right wing because they've had to they bootstraps themselves into like a fake consensus, not even consensus, but like, you know, at least you talked about it, Matt, when it was like now they cover these legal theories as like, well, there's a fringe legal theory. And you pointed out like, no, it didn't exist. They just made it up now. And then they get to say like, well, it's a minority view, you know? And it's like, No, you just made up right now.

0:10:49 Lydia: And assign a label to it. Yeah, yeah.

0:10:55 Matt: It's really the equivalent of chevron creating the petroleum institute or whatever and having that be the one voice against climate change right like it's out there

0:10:59 Thomas: It is. It's the one dentist who doesn't agree on the toothbrush or whatever.

0:11:03 Matt: Exactly yeah yeah that's

0:11:04 Lydia: And just kind of tying it all back to Bari Weiss, you know, Caitlin Flanagan admits that she is friends with Bari Weiss, but not only is she friends with Bari Weiss. Not only

0:11:13 Matt: The appropriate verb yes

0:11:13 Thomas: Why do they let this? The Atlantic used to be something. I admit I'm writing a story about someone I really like, but you should still listen to it because no one else will write this because I'm the only person person who would write something this stupid and somehow I have a job with the Atlantic.

0:11:18 Lydia: That, though. Yeah. There's also a professional.

0:11:29 Matt: She doesn't say that here though does she oh

0:11:31 Lydia: She does. She does. He does say that she's friends with Barry Weis and her wife and her sister.

0:11:34 Matt: Yeah she does yeah you're right you're right of course yes that's right thank

0:11:36 Lydia: But she does not disclaim in this article that she also has a professional interest, too, because she's on the board of advisors for Bari Weiss's university, university, University University of Austin. And that is, that's not disclosed anywhere in this. Yeah.

0:11:49 Thomas: Doesn't disclose that, huh?

0:11:50 Lydia: So just want to get that out of the way.

0:11:51 Thomas: I would think the Atlantic actually

0:11:47 Matt: You sure yeah

0:11:52 Thomas: Would care about something like that.

0:11:54 Lydia: Yeah, I would think so too. Maybe I'll write a little, a little letter.

0:11:55 Matt: It's a significant conflict of interest

0:11:57 Lydia: Yeah. Okay. So let's go ahead and dive into the article itself.

0:12:00 Thomas: Are we doing this whole thing? What's

0:12:02 Lydia: It's, it's pretty short.

0:12:02 Thomas: Our plan here? Okay.

0:12:03 Lydia: I think we can do the whole thing. Don't bet against Bari Weiss, the new editor-in-chief of CBS News triumphs over her critics. You could be forgiven for not knowing how much people love CBS News. I certainly didn't until a few weeks ago, but the hoary institution is once again being described as the Tiffany Network. Edward R. Murrow saying, quote, good night and good luck. Walter Cronkite taking the manliest moment in all of live television to get control of himself after announcing the death of John F. Kennedy. And the trail grows cold. Dan Rather in a turban? The

0:12:03 Matt: It's a short, quick one.

0:12:36 Thomas: What

0:12:36 Matt: Okay.

0:12:36 Lydia: Oddest paragraph.

0:12:36 Thomas: Is this paragraph?

0:12:38 Matt: This is so stupid. First, yeah,

0:12:39 Thomas: So, they're trying to set up a sarcasm. Look, I come to these things as the uninitiated listener usually, is she trying to do the thing where it's like, can't believe all of a sudden everyone cares about this thing because all they have is like, they don't argue anything on the merit. They always just say, well, you leftists don't actually care about the thing you're talking about. But it's not even an argument. We're just saying this thing. Is that what she's doing? Is it like you didn't actually carry on? And so then she does this like, oh, here's these historical moments. And then she's saying the last good one was when John F. Kennedy died or whatever. Is that what the bit is?

0:13:17 Matt: Pretty much. And she's completely wrong. I mean, as somebody, again, I have most of a journalism degree. I'm an English major, but I almost got a double major. And I was almost going to be a journalist. And Casey's father actually is a pretty well -known journalist in Rhode Island. And he talks about CBS News all the time. I remember learning all about CBS news when I was doing journalism classes. They really were the gold standard.

0:13:35 Thomas: Well, 60 Minutes was is one of the last respected like news shows like that, right?

0:13:38 Lydia: 60 minutes.

0:13:42 Matt: The idea of pretending that, oh, now you care about journalists, and she's really showing that she doesn't know that much about journalism. She's supposed to be some kind of journalist, I guess. It's like saying, oh, now you're care about Mozart or your musicians, huh? Okay. I mean, it's really that kind of standard, frankly.

0:13:47 Thomas: So fucking dumb. So stupid.

0:14:00 Lydia: All right. Continuing on. I don't know. And neither do you, because it turns out that fans of the network were willing to do whatever it took to save the network except watch CBS News. It's the least watched of all three little watched network news programs. Each weeknight, a valiant struggle to report news that everyone's been refreshing all day long, or more likely not, because NATO? And, I don't know, and close with a human interest piece like one last bedtime story.

0:14:23 Matt: I don't know what that means.

0:14:22 Thomas: What? This person is so painfully online or something. What is that joke? I

0:14:30 Matt: This is disjointed. I really don't Oh, no.

0:14:33 Lydia: But now, cry havoc and write a hit piece, CBS News has been desecrated, a slurpee sloshed on William Paley's Picasso. The network is owned by Paramount Skydance.

0:14:43 Thomas: Hate this so much.

0:14:44 Lydia: Paramount is now run by Larry Ellison's son, David, who also bought Bari Weiss's publication, The Free Press, and selected her as the new editor -in -chief of CBS News.

0:14:51 Thomas: It is not good that no talent ass clowns who have happened to have a billion dollars control our media. Why is that? I don't, I confess, I don'T watch CBS news. I don't watch any network news. I think it's bad that one person controls an entire thing or like a tight knit group of billionaires, a smaller and smaller group of people are starting to control all of the news. I don't need to watch every fucking minute of CBS news to have an opinion about that. This, this all these fuckers do because it's all grievance that's never on the merit it's always about how we don't actually care or something it's just a waste of time argument and there's so she's so fucking smug about it but she's sure that she's caught us in our hypocrisy yeah

0:15:31 Matt: Notice the focus throughout this piece is on the finances of journalism and the business of journalism, not whether it's good or not, whether or not it's worthwhile. She's just saying that objectively as a product, nobody's watching CBS News because it's the most serious of the news networks. Nobody's watching a lot of serious news right now. It's hard to get people to read and listen to the news.

0:15:51 Matt: But the idea that she's not talking about any of the structural problems that got us to the point, as you're saying, that these horrible people are now in charge of something that Bill Paley created. And to use William Paley's name in the same same paragraph as Bari Weiss is offensive, frankly. But let's keep going.

0:16:05 Lydia: Weiss is a hugely successful journalist, an entrepreneur, and the target, especially from others within her field, of Bari Weiss derangement syndrome. Yeah, here we go. So Weiss famously resigned from The New York Times in 2020. She'd been an opinion writer and editor after publishing a blistering letter of resignation, enumerating the ways that the paper had abandoned the core principles that had made it great. The sharp line between opinion and reporting and an approach to the news and editorial vision that wasn't prey to the whims or axioms of political ideology or popular sentiment.

0:16:14 Thomas: Fuck's sake and I know it's been covered at this point now that john oliver did it but every single one of her colleagues was like she's just lying about what's happening here that's not happening it's just fake it's made up it

0:16:48 Matt: Got to note the New York Times thing. Do you know why? One of her big beefs when she was fired, or she left, rather. I think she was pushed out. But yes,

0:16:55 Thomas: Was it was after the um was it after the the op -ed by cotton saying we should do martial law and now they're doing it so

0:17:00 Matt: Tom Cotton. Yep. And yep. Because whoever was running things at the time was fired. The op -ed person. And she was very mad about that Because it was stupid to run that.

0:17:11 Lydia: James Bennett, I think, was his name. Yeah.

0:17:13 Matt: That's right. I think so. Yep.

0:17:14 Thomas: Because that person brought in the valuable voices of brett stevens and Bari Weiss people whose opinions we don't need nobody needs them but it's dei it's affirmative action for people who are conservative conservative it's people who are completely untalented have nothing interesting to say and are just wrong constantly but they do this thing where they're like well but we have to have that for some reason we have that to have diversity we have have wrong people say wrong things for some that that helps something I don't know what it helps but it helps something

0:17:51 Lydia: Yeah, man. Apparently, sufferers of BWD include, quote, everyone at CBS. They are freaking out. No, they're, quote literally freaking out, a staffer told The Independent. Quote, it's not a good place right now. The Washington Post reported on Saturday that the network's journalists reeled as they digested the news, although by yesterday morning, the Post had downgraded the mood at CBS2 per one employee, quote, noticeably uncomfortable with, quote pockets of hopefulness. Both good signs different

0:18:18 Thomas: That just means you got different quotes from different people like this this, God, this is so fucking annoying. This is the most annoying writing.

0:18:20 Lydia: People and lazy lazy yeah

0:18:22 Matt: Big organization. This is not anything. Yeah.

0:18:28 Thomas: And she hasn't established that, like, like I know you're asserting, author, you're asserting that there's Bari, Bari Weiss derangement syndrome. I think you should have the S in there, but whatever. But, but like, you'RE asserting that, but you haven't, you haven'T established why people are wrong to be upset. You've just said people are like, she's great because she had a six. What did she even say? She just said like, well, she resigned for the New York Times.

0:18:38 Matt: Yes. Please. Be consistent.

0:18:59 Thomas: That's it. Okay. But now here's all these quotes from people within the network who are like fuck this sucks. And she's like, yeah, look at these idiots. Like what you haven't established why they're wrong. I would think that people who do the news at CBS for one thing, those aren't like Like, she started off talking about you and I and how we don't, we're hypocrites because we don'T even watch it, but we DON'T care. It's one thing to make that claim. These are the people at CBS now you're claiming that are just full of shit.

0:19:26 Thomas: You DON'T think they care about this for some reason? It's all a conspiracy. It's ALL a conspiracy against fucking Bari Weiss.

0:19:26 Lydia: Creating the news yeah yeah

0:19:29 Matt: And nowhere in this piece is she going to tell you why people have a problem with Bari Weiss. It'S just not going to happen.

0:19:37 Thomas: Well, that's weird because that seems like pretty important to the thing you're writing about on The Atlantic, which is a real magazine. I

0:19:38 Matt: That would be for the perspective. Yeah yeah.

0:19:38 Lydia: Apparently there is also anxiety about coming layoffs and understandable fear but a long-standing one weiss her wife Nellie Bowles and her sister Suzy Weiss are the founders of of the Free Press, and close friends of mine, a friendship born when I met Bari over coffee when she was at the Times and learned that we share the same disgust at what has become of so much of the mainstream legacy press. When I was growing up, the Times didn't reflect the truth. It was the truth in school. We were always encouraged to read at least one front page story a week in the San Francisco Chronicle with the regular reminder that, as good as our local paper might be, it was a pale shadow of the great New York Times.

0:20:17 Thomas: DON'T THINK that's how anyone would teach that, but that's fine.

0:20:19 Lydia: When I moved east and began reading the the Times, the thought of doubting something it had reported was the furthest thing from my mind. Now, I often have to shake the reported facts, which are almost always accurate, free from the omissions, biases, and willful imposition of narratives.

0:20:33 Thomas: Hey, give me an example. Do you have an example? Give me one example. And she's talking about front page news, like not the opinion section. It's not talking about, she's saying, no, the front page essentially.

0:20:36 Matt: Yeah nope. Now, also, as one of those annoying journalists that you're complaining about, the place to mention that you are good friends with Bari Weiss would be the first paragraph. Not that weird shit up front.

0:20:53 Lydia: Or at the top, like

0:20:55 Matt: Yeah. Disclaimer.

0:20:55 Lydia: Very immediately before your article began yeah

0:20:57 Thomas: Why are they published? And this, again, it goes to the fucking DEI of, and I use that in their way disparagingly.

0:20:58 Matt: Not the middle. Sure.

0:21:07 Thomas: This, this goes to the people, this is the actual version of what they think affirmative action is, which is this, this, is not something that is publishable. Like this is, this article is not usable, but like, because of our political situation and because we constantly have to go down and down and down to dig into the depths of idiocy to get a diversity of opinion that they're like, well, I get, what do you have fucking idiot that we hire here for some reason? Oh you have a love letter to a friend of yours okay I guess that's what we're putting in here this month stupid

0:21:36 Lydia: After

0:21:41 Matt: It's barely a blog post, but sure. Yeah.

0:21:45 Lydia: Weiss left the times in a blizzard of respect but also of derision she started a sub stack

0:21:49 Thomas: A blizzard some

0:21:50 Matt: Respect. It's quite a forecast.

0:21:54 Thomas: Say she was too good everyone saluted as she left and their tears a

0:21:57 Matt: Blizzard of respect.

0:21:57 Lydia: And it was like like two competing blizzards there was a respect blizzard and a derision blizzard and they're both like happening yeah

0:22:05 Thomas: Blizard of respect but also derision yeah that's how does this is bad writing you're bad at at your job yeah

0:22:09 Matt: It's a weird metaphor.

0:22:08 Lydia: I don't know that'll show them and it did it became the Free Press which currently has 1.5 million readers so here's the thing 1. 5 million readers I'm one of those and it's just because I like have to you know I subject myself to it much like peter shamsheri yeah exactly like he also subjects himself to this for work um and for which paramount reportedly paid $150,000 in cash and Paramount stock.

0:22:17 Thomas: That part's true yeah yeah

0:22:24 Matt: For work. You have to. Yeah. Yeah.

0:22:34 Lydia: This last fact may be driving as much of the hysteria as anyone's ideological beliefs. As Christopher Hitchens said in a different context, quote, it's not just the principles, it'S the money of the thing.

0:22:34 Matt: Well, that was their stupid decision.

0:22:36 Thomas: What

0:22:47 Matt: No, it's that she's taking over CBS News. That's the problem. I don't care that she couldn't. Yeah.

0:22:48 Thomas: A weird yeah what

0:22:50 Lydia: So here's a little side note. So the owner of Paramount Skydance, David Ellison, his dad is Larry Ellison. Huge huge Trump donor supporter, also the single largest like personal contributor of financing to the IDF. And Bari Weiss is very, you know, pro -Israel. And so, you know, watching the media companies kind of get bought up. He also is like one of the major folks that's going to be owning TikTok when it becomes, you know, an American entity. So the news that we're going to to be seeing.

0:23:23 Thomas: Do you watch all of tiktok do you wash it all you can have an opinion on some guy owning every fucking everything unless you watch every tiktak lydia hypocrite

0:23:28 Matt: Now you care about tech tech.

0:23:31 Lydia: Now I care about TikTok. So like just this, the new media of like TikTok and where people like Gen Z, Gen Alpha are like consuming their news content in addition to like legacy outlets are going to be owned by the same person who is trying to just put out as much pro pro -Israel content as possible. And Bari Weiss is definitely the perfect voice for that. So something to keep in mind.

0:23:31 Thomas: Fucking fuck you god what

0:23:53 Matt: In the past, that's the kind of thing the Atlantic would have actually reported. I'm sure of it in the past. They're pretty middle of the road, but they still would have. Okay. Anyway, let's keep going.

0:24:01 Lydia: Weiss's hiring at CBS isn't a reeling and digesting story. It's a business story. Everyone in journalism has known for years that there's been a huge opportunity for a publication that employs the traditional methods of U.S. journalism reporting, deep sourcing, fact checking, fearlessness to subjects that either don't get covered enough or get covered only from a certain perspective. If creating such an enterprise seems simple to you you don't know the territory it's one of the hardest things you can attempt in media it's hugely expensive and it has to fight for space in the attention economy at a time when americans drive for knowledge seems to be powering down yeah

0:24:32 Thomas: Is she fucking talking about out I actually don't I think she's so far off in her own news bubble that I don't even know what she's responding to well

0:24:43 Matt: She doesn't care about news. She's talking about money and she's saying, and I mean, that last phrase and that last sentence tells you everything that, But, well, Americans aren't going to watch the news anymore, so it's time to get creative and figure out how to make money doing it. That's what I read here.

0:24:55 Thomas: Well but it says there's been a huge opportunity for a publication okay so it's saying there's a big opportunity first off what's a reeling and digesting story but

0:25:06 Lydia: She's just commenting about the employees at cbs are reeling and digesting this news like those are some quotes that we read previously in the in the piece yeah

0:25:13 Thomas: That's like a genre of story I don't okay it's

0:25:16 Matt: Reactions? Yeah, sure.

0:25:17 Lydia: Yeah she's saying like like this isn't a story that you should be reeling over or having to digest it's just a story about business

0:25:22 Thomas: A instead it's a business story no it's it's not it's not a tech company being a what

0:25:29 Lydia: And oftentimes the news that's happening within business like they are stories that you need to reel over occasionally and digest over

0:25:36 Thomas: But anyway they're saying there's a yeah there's a huge opportunity for okay so it's taking cbs news uh okay and then and then pointing it at their you know pet grudges or whatever and they're like if you think that's simple you don't know the territory it's It's actually hard to do propaganda. It's not as easy as you think.

0:25:56 Matt: But fighting for space at a time when Americans' drive for knowledge seems to be powering down is such a depressing phrase. Yeah.

0:26:06 Thomas: But is there interest? Ah, whatever. You know what? I'm not going to keep trying to understand it because we're already out of time for this segment.

0:26:07 Lydia: You can't you can yeah uh that she will somehow denigrate the storied cbs news it has been reported that some staff members have delivered minotauri instructions to not quote quote, mess with the golden gooses of 60 Minutes and CBS News Sunday Morning, as though West 57th Street, where the OK Corral, is a complete misreading of her and her vision, which is to bring the traditional methods of American journalism back to the news, back to The News, and also to build a culture of ideas.

0:26:28 Matt: What?

0:26:34 Thomas: Again, if you want to say Lydia and I who don't watch CBS News are hypocrites for caring, that's stupid, but fine. You're talking about the people there. I think the people There know something about CBS News. News why is this idiot why does she think she's the expert on like like I know better than the actual people the employees who are like this is bad this is going to be bad for news why would this person know better what what is it about caitlin flanagan that would give her the qualifications to know that everyone there and all of us are full of shit but and and not only are we full of shit she doesn't even have to explain why she just like says it like we have derangement what What?

0:27:14 Thomas: Because we're not looking at it as a business? That's not even a claim. That's nothing.

0:27:14 Lydia: Well, yeah. Well she has to start with Bari Weiss is my friend And people are upset that my friend is getting this job. And so I have to defend my friend and make up stuff.

0:27:23 Thomas: This is not printable. This has not usable, Atlantic. Throw

0:27:27 Lydia: Yeah.

0:27:27 Thomas: It away.

0:27:28 Lydia: This is exactly what she's done at the Free Press, which covers a variety of stories, the most popular of which Uria Berliner's explanation of NPR's decline, for example, are those that hold powerful institutions to account. This is exactly the kind of journalism that made CBS News so justly respected in its great era. Weiss's understanding of the network's role in the American imagination, both as a trustworthy source and as a holder of cultural continuity in a fractured time, is obvious in the opening of the letter she sent the staff yesterday. Quote, Growing up, CBS was a deep family tradition. Whenever I hear that tick, tick, ticks or that trumpet fanfare, it sends me right back to our den in Pittsburgh. I'm sure there are plenty of people at CBS News who aren't freaking out but are excited about this turn of events.

0:28:07 Thomas: Sure.

0:28:08 Matt: I haven't talked to them, but sure. They must exist.

0:28:09 Thomas: Can you find any of them? Why are you sure of that? This is so stupid.

0:28:14 Matt: And you're just going to believe her letter. Okay. Let's keep going.

0:28:16 Lydia: Not now. Not now, but soon enough, there will be major stories about the free press being the creation of three female founders who constructed a hugely successful digital business out of whole cloth.

0:28:25 Thomas: Well, yeah. I mean, fine. They found billionaires who were interested in the of the anti-left stuff they were doing.

0:28:29 Lydia: Mark Andreessen. It's right-wing billionaires. Mark

0:28:33 Thomas: It's not, I mean... There's a talent for it, sure. Sure. But you're connected. You know, you've you've already had the leg up in terms of having some name recognition. And then you did you sold out or you already were sold out. I don't know before that. And you tell billionaires, billionaire man, children, what they want to hear so that it helps them ruin the country. And that's obviously valuable to them. So they pay you a lot of money. That's the end of thing. Okay that's cool it's cool that you have millions of dollars Bari Weiss it's cool but it's at that at what cost like that's bad what you're doing is bad everything

0:28:33 Lydia: Andreensen. Peter Thiel. Yeah right. Yeah yeah there's actually

0:29:09 Thomas: You're doing is that yeah

0:29:09 Lydia: A quote I read in the New York Times from Matt Flagenhammer who said, said, Bari Weiss has long been blessed with two superpowers, those close to her say. She knows how to make useful enemies and she knows how to make helpful friends. I think that's true. When there's a big media story like this, everybody eats. The haters write hateful stories. The hateful stories alert new readers to the existence of an outlet they might like and

0:29:23 Thomas: I mean I'll give her that sure the worthless atlantic authors write a love letter to their friend and it gets published for some reason no

0:29:38 Lydia: Instill in those readers a fierce loyalty to it because the criticism is so absurd. A current beef against Weiss is that she'll fail because she lacks broadcast experience. The beef against Weiss when she left the Times was that she would sink into obscurity. That wasn't it.

0:29:52 Thomas: It's not no that wasn't what are you talking about

0:29:55 Matt: None of this is the beef.

0:29:56 Thomas: I'm sad she's leaving because then she won't be as popular that wasn't I she shouldn't have ever been there I don't did I'm fine with her I'm glad she left she sucked it's

0:29:59 Lydia: Why would that be beef? Yeah. And the beef against her when she started to become successful was that She was selling out. If there's one person in the world I wouldn't bet against now, now it's Bari Weiss. Yeah, this it really is like just it is a business story. But I think we should care about this business story because I think it is indicative of a lot of things that are happening. Well, I mean, yeah, yeah.

0:30:31 Thomas: Not a business story that's her she's writing this from the she's just switching doing a switcheroo of what is important we're not defining you and I and the the people who work in the newsroom of cbs news are not worried about the shareholder or whatever the fuck they're you know know, the bottom line of the company, they're like, hey, the quality of work could be down. And it might be true that doing, Fox News is successful, you know, propaganda networks are successful. I might be more worried, actually, about her being successful than I am about her failing. I'm kind of now hoping that CBS News as an entity fails now, like that, like it's not good because if it succeeds, that will mean more people are getting her distorted view view, the anti -left view, like consistently anti -Left, anti -trans, anti, whatever, you know, pro -Israel, pro -genocide, that would mean more people are ingesting that. And that's bad. I don't care how much money it makes. I Don't care.

0:31:11 Matt: It's terrible.

0:31:28 Thomas: Like that doesn't matter.

0:31:30 Lydia: Slate actually wrote a great piece on this about Bari Weiss moving over to CBS and the free press being acquired. And they said that would be more understandable as a sheer business move if the free press were just any other site. But it's not. The newsletter is framed as honest and fearless, even as it carries water for some of the most powerful people in the country. And then but perhaps even more alarming to them is the journalistic sloppiness Weiss will bring because it's a particular constant at the free press. After columnist Coleman Hughes's case for Derek Chauvin's innocence was thoroughly debunked repeatedly by Radley Balko, Who just shout out to SIO 436.

0:32:06 Lydia: If anyone's looking to to listen to Radley Balco tear down Coleman Hughes's retconning of George Floyd. That's a great piece. Weiss defended Hughes and merely asked Balco to debate the matter. Like that was her response to Balco saying like, hey, you're getting this wrong, this wrong. Wrong, this wrong. You're repeating like undeniably incorrect, you know, pieces of information. None of that's true. And Hughes's original piece was never corrected or clarified after those.

0:32:07 Thomas: That was, listen to that. Really interesting. Yeah, because they weren't doing journalism. They're doing blogging opinion blogging that masquerades as journalism yeah

0:32:41 Lydia: And and Slate.

0:32:40 Matt: And to be clear, our beef, I just want to be very clear about this. Our beef is that we have read the free press. That is our beef with Paraguay. I mean, among other things, but right. That's all it takes.

0:32:49 Lydia: Yep. And, you know, Slate also points out it's not just like fact checking that the free press had had problems with. It also whitewashed RFK Jr.'s medical positions on a lot of things. Vinay Prasad used to be a contributor to the Free Press, and now he works for the Trump administration. You see a lot those crossovers, too. Charles Murray just had a piece published today on the Free Press about finding God and why God is so important to him. I don't think we need pieces from Charles Murray. I do not think that is important. They also said that Andy Ngo was a straightforward journalist who covers far left extremism.

0:33:25 Lydia: So, yeah, it's just things like that. And, you know, don't just take it from us. Media Bias Fact Check said, you know, that they rate the free press as right center. I would say like, I'd probably say a little more right, especially on cultural and social issues. And then they, you know, just outright rate them as mixed for factual reporting because it's not always accurate yeah

0:33:45 Thomas: It's the same trick that they always do the thing to think about is not right wing it's anti -left because they love to do their shtick where they're the only ones who know it's it's somewhat enlightened centrism bullshit but it's also just anti -life like it'll be even even the things they agree agree with. For example, Bari Weiss is gay married, as they say, uh, that like, that doesn't matter. She can say that as like, oh, I'm a lesbian. So therefore I'm coming from this left place. Yeah. But you're, you've helped people get rid of gay marriage. So how valuable is your view there? Like how important is that? The things that you care about, the things thatyou attack are consistently left. So just saying you have a couple of views that are left -wing doesn't do anything if all you're doing is harming the left at all times oh my god unbelievable

0:34:32 Matt: And your idea of an expose is chasing down pictures of starving Palestinian children and saying, actually, there are other health problems also. Like that was one of their big stories this year.

0:34:39 Lydia: It's disgusting yeah

0:34:40 Thomas: That's the most unbelievable evil things I can't I can t even I can' t believe we live in an era where they tried to do that

0:34:43 Lydia: You can't stomach that it's it's just it's inexcusable

0:34:49 Matt: That's my beef.

0:34:49 Thomas: It's the mo like if you went back inside and I don't know I guess make sure people know what we're talking about the article uh that they did should I try that I mean just to show it I guess for a second but it's it's this article that's that's about you you know, the starving Palestinians actually also had like diseases and stuff. And so that was like this invalid thing. Do you have it? Oh,

0:34:59 Lydia: You know let me see if I can I'm

0:35:14 Matt: I I just sent it to you.

0:35:14 Lydia: Trying to find it uh they became symbols for Gaza and starvation but all 12 suffer from other health problems

0:35:20 Thomas: Here, I'll show that. Look at this. Unbelievable.

0:35:25 Matt: That's coming soon to CBS News. This level of journalism.

0:35:28 Thomas: A free press investigation. They lack important context. There's also other things wrong with these people that israel is starving is that it's

0:35:36 Matt: That they aren't getting medical treatment for because the hospital's been destroyed. Yeah.

0:35:39 Lydia: Right. Or there was like an example where John Oliver pointed this out. There was a child that had an existing like brain injury. And, yeah, it's because of an attack from Israel during the war and a missile led to a brain injury, yeah.

0:35:40 Thomas: It's incredible like if you saw yeah important context that that makes me not think this is as tragic as if you know they also have a brain injury from an attack by israelis okay um this is like this is the kind of thing where if you saw this out of the third reich it wouldn't be surprising like it really wouldn't like to be to be taking pictures of starving children and being like, whoa, hold on though. And the thing you're holding on though, is that they also have other things wrong with them that are also a product of not having infrastructure, not having hospitals, not Having any of the resources living in an apartheid state.

0:36:30 Thomas: Those are also bad things that Israel is doing.

0:36:30 Matt: Being bombed. Yeah.

0:36:34 Thomas: It's crazy.

0:36:34 Lydia: I know.

0:36:36 Thomas: Evil. It is the most evil thing. I am really stunned that this exists. Us.

0:36:40 Lydia: Yeah. And then, Matt, a little more in your alley, the only piece that they ever did about Kilmar Ábrego García was, quote, no, the president has not defied a Supreme Court ruling, saying, you know, that he was not ordered to effectuate his return. He was ordered to facilitate it.

0:36:51 Matt: Oh, good. To facilitate. That's, thank you for that important, wow, this perspective you can't get anywhere else. Literally can't go anywhere else because it's wrong. I mean, that is literally true, but come on. Okay.

0:37:06 Thomas: No, it's because they're too afraid, Matt. They're too afraid to say the truth, which is a dumbass legal argument that no one would make except one person.

0:37:09 Matt: That's right. To, I mean, every media outlet did actually cite the Supreme Court with that exact language you just said, but sure. All right. Well, we better keep moving.

0:37:18 Lydia: Yeah, so we got to move on to the next thing, but But

0:37:20 Thomas: Well, we better take our break and shout out our patrons as we... Sorry, did you have another thing to say?

0:37:28 Lydia: Just keep your eyes peeled, folks. If you watch 60 Minutes, you know, just keep in mind who's going to be behind the helm now. So or

0:37:36 Thomas: I just don't watch it anymore. I don't know.

0:37:37 Lydia: Just don't watch it. Yeah.

0:37:38 Thomas: Who knows? I think people working there should try to make a stand. End. Yeah, I don't know. See what happens.

0:37:43 Lydia: A coup. Yeah.

0:37:45 Matt: Keep doing journalism.

0:37:46 Thomas: And then do, yeah, do a, do a, give it a good old try. Get some, some emails from Barry and then go public when you quit and be like, this is the bullshit that she's doing.

0:37:46 Matt: See what happens. Yeah, it's

0:37:56 Thomas: All right. Well, taking a quick break and that's brought to you by these amazing patrons. Patreon.com/law. Mark Schultz. Gavelhead chucking away. Gaivel gavel fan. ET. Love the extra episodes. Chris Simpson. Fraud fishy hates everything. Cajunkilla Cajunkilla I always say that right I don't know why too white uh Thomas Freeman huh weird this patreon name is blinking what happens if I oh no even a blind squirrel can find these chunks god I love that one so much it must be bad if mac no longer has time to drum for pearl jam yeah rough uh cavalri Vehicular Man's Laughter simply mind blown that eli of all people is objectively wrong on spoonology well we got some overlap from

0:38:14 Lydia: I don't know why either. Chunks. Yeah.

0:38:31 Matt: I quit.

0:38:40 Lydia: Oh,

0:38:40 Thomas: Other other shows dear old dad's show there.

0:38:41 Lydia: Dear old dads. Yeah. Oh, Vehicular Man's Laughter is also running for office. So I got some inside scoop there. We'll probably get a patron name change now that these are back. So keep your eyes peeled for that. Yeah, yeah.

0:38:51 Matt: I'll miss that one. It's one of my favorites.

0:38:53 Thomas: Jaysank. Well, they'll still be vehicular man's laughter. Jay Zank, you got to fight for your right (to ex parte). And, oh, I can't read this.

0:38:56 Lydia: Vehicular Manslaughter says vote for, yeah? Uh -oh.

0:38:57 Matt: It better be.

0:39:04 Thomas: Aibohphobia. A -I -B -O -H -phobia. What is that? I don't know.

0:39:05 Lydia: I don't know.

0:39:11 Thomas: A .I.? A. I. something? A .ibophobia? I Don't Know.

0:39:13 Lydia: Write in. Write in and tell us.

0:39:15 Thomas: We'll see. Well we're going to take this quick break brought to you by those amazing folks. Join them at patreon.com/law and we'll be right back okay today's show is brought to you by Quince. Weather is cooling down and it was downright freezing today in Sacramento. That is, it was 71 degrees. Streets were ice. Didn't even know what to do. It was so cold. In all serious, it's nice. And I love fall. I love when it gets cooler because the that you can wear when it's cold just look better, in just get to do more things. You get to wear more things, more layers. Layering's good. Opposed to summer when it is like, well, it is just shorts shorts and sweat. Those are the things you can wearing. If you want to look good, well, in any weather, but in this weather especially, has you covered. Out their 100% Mongolian cashmere from just $60, classic fit denim, leather, and wool outerwear that looks sharp and holds up. As much as Quince has been amazing for our wardrobe, I a few times, we've been eyeing it, we finally pulled the trigger, we grabbed new luggage from Quince, yeah, matching, okay, different colors, but we got the same set, I think it's cute, I like it, a reason we chose quince it's because it's fantastic quality at great prices truly hard to figure out how they pull it off honestly say it's by partnering directly with ethical factories and top artisans and then cutting outthe middlemanand that's somehow how they deliver this premium quality at half the cost of similar brands. Sounds impossible, but is ordered. It's almost here. I can't wait. In Time for the QED Conference. Really does have everything. And there's a reason I've been shopping there for years now. Is because it really does last. And that is honestly the most important thing to me, is that high quality that is not going to to disintegrate minute the you get it wet. Up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look. To quince .com slash OA for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Hey, now available in Canada too. Hear they have lots of cold weather there. Q -u -i -n -c -e dot com slash OA, free free shipping, and 365-day returns. One more time, quince .com slash OA.

0:41:25 Thomas: What's what's next everybody

0:41:27 Matt: Right. It's Turley Time. Let's pull up our piece from Jonathan Turley. So this again is someone who is willfully not understanding the point or the assignment or what's going on at all. We've been talking a lot about Antifa and opening arguments, the concept of Antifa. And of course, it's especially important right now because Trump just designated, capital A, Antifa, a domestic terror organization, which Jonathan Turley has previously argued should not happen and does not mention in this piece, even though this is from yesterday.

0:41:28 Lydia: It's Turley time. Um god

0:41:53 Matt: No, why would he mention it? Because that's a lot scarier than anything he's talking about here. And he has previously said that it's too amorphous and that you can't possibly define find his domestic terror organization but now he is just too overcome with fear of antifa to not say something um

0:41:50 Lydia: Of course not yeah yeah this is his whole shtick he like says one thing in a particular moment and then says the exact opposite and never like recognizes his previous comments on it pretends like they don't exist like he did this with the impeachment um for bill clinton versus the impeachment for donald trump um and uh yeah it's just I don't know we see through this jonathan than Turley. Be better.

0:42:30 Matt: This is really like the arizona state thing where I just want to send it to wherever he teaches I don't remember right now and like this isn't coherent this piece is completely incoherent it doesn't add up to anything probably yeah that's probably that sounds right I think he is yeah that'S right

0:42:37 Lydia: Is he still at George Washington? Yeah. All right. So let's dig into this one. Antifa denial, how a violent anti -free speech group became a non -entity in American politics.

0:42:52 Matt: It's it's not an entity so let's start there

0:42:52 Thomas: What isn't that already mean like they're if they're non -entity then what are we doing here anti

0:42:56 Lydia: Then why are you writing an article?

0:43:00 Thomas: -free speech group that's not okay

0:43:02 Lydia: Yeah, so now this next part is the part that drives me the craziest that should be at least put in italics like this is his preamble to his article and for whatever reason we get his explanation for his article below is my column on the rise of antifa deniers in washington once in once embraced and even marketed on the left antifa has become the group that must not be named as political violence rises across the country

0:43:03 Matt: We're all in denial my favorite perfect start buddy marketed

0:43:29 Thomas: Yeah there are advertisements I'm sure on uh you know uh I'm trying to name a show what's a left -wing show I'm blanking on a cable news show uh what's her name

0:43:38 Lydia: I was gonna say hunting wives

0:43:40 Thomas: What's a what's uh What's her name with the left -wing cable news show? Anyway, ads in between the commercial breaks. Brought to you by, yeah, Rachel Maddow. That's who I'm going for.

0:43:45 Lydia: Rachel Maddow. Yeah.

0:43:48 Thomas: Antifa, join Antifa now. Marketed on the left.

0:43:53 Lydia: It does not matter that radicals identify as Antifa, coordinate protests, carry Antifa flags, wear signature clothing. Black, I guess, is the signature clothing and espouse the same ideas from the Antifa handbook. There have even been people elected

0:44:07 Matt: More on that in a minute uh I was going to say just note the capital a all the way through because that is really making me crazy there's no such thing as capital a antifa that's the thing that trump designated our terrorist group as he has said another time it doesn't exist not a thing it is lower antifa because it is an ideology it's a set of ideas for fighting fascism please keep going don't let me stop you

0:44:22 Lydia: As Antifa representatives. Yet the current spin is to pretend that they do not exist as a single organization to deflect the debate over violence on the left. Even with the past and current FBI directors saying that they exist as group, politicians are mocking those who object to Antifa, even journalists and others targeted by its members.

0:44:44 Thomas: Look, and I know I grew up in the 1800s apparently, but didn't you used to have to provide an example of the thing you say?

0:44:48 Lydia: Believers.

0:44:51 Thomas: Do you just get to say things and that's it?

0:44:50 Matt: Oh he will they're not good examples he's going going to provide some examples from

0:44:55 Thomas: We're not in the column yet.

0:44:56 Lydia: This, this, we're not even in his article.

0:44:57 Thomas: That's right. So this is about, is this like a historical column? It almost reads like, oh, you know, I'm bringing back this old one I wrote.

0:44:58 Lydia: We're in his, like, his little, you,

0:45:05 Thomas: Here's the column.

0:45:05 Matt: Yesterday.

0:45:05 Lydia: You would think, I don't think so. I, this.

0:45:06 Thomas: Or was it published somewhere else and he's also doing it here?

0:45:08 Matt: It was published somewhere else. I think that's why you get the intro, but it was published recently.

0:45:11 Lydia: So then he brought it over into his blog.

0:45:13 Thomas: Got some more things to say about it.

0:45:15 Lydia: Why doesn't he just link it? Okay. Let's see. This week, Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison claimed that nobody knows what the left -wing terrorist organization Antifa is and that it does not exist. However, he previously promoted the Antifa handbook in 2018 and praised the group as terrifying Trump. Now, however, he has joined the chorus of Antifa denials as political violence rises around the country. Here is the column.

0:45:37 Matt: I just have to say very quickly. Yeah. There we go. I'm sorry. Yes. Thank you. Here is the column. Now I'm going to start. You've just watched five minutes of the movie. Here's the credits. But I don't... Okay. Just to make this point, because the Antifa Handbook will come again. Mark Bray wrote the AntIFA Handbook, and it is very important that everybody understand Mark BrAY just had to flee the United United States. He now lives in Spain as of this week.

0:45:57 Matt: The Antifa Handbook is not an actual handbook. It is a history book because Mark Bray is an historian. Now, he does interview activists and talk about tactics that have worked because, again, Antifa is a set of tactics. It's a set of ideas that have work historically to stop the rise of violent right-wing extremism. And violence is actually pretty much the end of the list of the tactics. And if it is violence, it's almost always going to be self -defense. People show up prepared to defend protests, to defend themselves. I just want to make that point before we keep going.

0:46:24 Lydia: Roughly 70 years ago, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover famously declared, quote, there is no organized crime in America. Hoover's stubborn denial of the existence of the mafia continued despite ample evidence to the contrary, from arrests to congressional testimony. Many have speculated on why Hoover maintained his stubborn denial. Perhaps, they say, he was trying to avoid the political embarrassment of long ignoring the single largest criminal network in the country.

0:46:49 Matt: Okay. I'm sorry. I have to say this. We know why Hoover denied that the mafia existed. And he did. It was very famous. He openly for decades pretended it didn't exist because he was being blackmailed by Roy Cohn, who knew that he was gay, among other things.

0:46:58 Thomas: Weird. Oh, really?

0:47:03 Matt: And Roy Cohn, Trump's favorite lawyer, was blackmailing.

0:47:05 Thomas: What?

0:47:05 Lydia: I was going to say, like, the Roy Cohn, yeah?

0:47:07 Thomas: The Roy Cohn?

0:47:08 Lydia: As portrayed by, what's his face from Succession?

0:47:07 Matt: Yes, the very kind. Sebastian Stan, right? No,

0:47:12 Thomas: No.

0:47:12 Lydia: No, well, Sebastian Samuels Trump, yeah.

0:47:12 Thomas: Well, that's Trump. Yeah.

0:47:12 Matt: He's Trump. That's right. Yeah, that's right, right. I haven't seen it yet. I need to see it. But generally speaking, though, this is so wildly off. This is pretty much the historical record that Roy Cohn had dirt on. And people commented for years about why isn't he saying anything about the mafia until he absolutely had to.

0:47:15 Thomas: Anyway. Yeah.

0:47:28 Lydia: Interesting.

0:47:29 Matt: And to make his point, he can't, of course, acknowledge that Roy Cohn blackmailed him because that would undercut everything. So I'm sure he knows that. But anyway,

0:47:36 Thomas: But also how's it related to this oh okay I'll find out it's fine yeah

0:47:37 Lydia: Many. Yeah, maybe you'll find out. Many today seem to be adopting a Hoover -esque willful blindness about another violent group, Antifa.

0:47:42 Matt: He'll finish this thought,

0:47:50 Thomas: Well to be fair we are all being blackmailed by antifa I don't know somebody related to antifa

0:47:53 Matt: Antifa. Yeah.

0:47:54 Lydia: I don't know. Antifa's lawyer. Yeah. Politicians and pundits are denying that the left -wing anarchist group exists, mocking President Trump's designation of Antifa as a terrorist organization. Organization.

0:48:08 Thomas: True agree with that sentence

0:48:09 Matt: As often as possible.

0:48:11 Lydia: Representative Dan Goldman of New York seemed to morph into Hoover before our very eyes, including a posting in which he challenged anyone to, quote, name one member of Antifa. Did anyone name one? Did we get any information?

0:48:23 Thomas: And so did yeah you just you would think if you're making that big point point you could be like here's one I'll do it right now so

0:48:31 Matt: I will point out Goldman was, I believe, one of the lawyers on one of the Trump impeachments, which particularly participated in, so there might be some personal beef here.

0:48:38 Lydia: Oh, interesting. Former House Judiciary Chair Gerald Nadler of Newark was widely ridiculed for denying the existence of Antifas. Others on the left have joined Goldman in this absurd claim. Late night host Jimmy Kimmel committed part of his monologue to assure viewers that Antifa is no more than a mythical chupacabra. Quote, you understand there is no Antifa, he said. This is an entirely made up organization. I have testified about Antifa before Congress, run columns on the organization for over a decade and wrote a book discussing Antifa. I did oppose declaring Antifa a terrorist organization due to free speech concerns. But I also know that it is very real. By design, Antifa

0:49:21 Thomas: It was a principled stand he was taking okay yeah

0:49:24 Lydia: Avoids typical leadership hierarchies and organizational structures. Antifa was first created in the 1920s, associated with the Weimar -era German communist group. And Matt, I'm going to turn to you. Please pronounce that.

0:49:36 Matt: Anti -fascist action. I don't know. But I will say, this is where I have to bring in the goose meme, the goose following you around. Which fascist group were they opposing, Jonathan, in the Weimar era? Which ones do you think they were standing against? They were, to be fair, they were also opposing the Social Democrats because they thought that that at the time, the equivalent of the Democratic Party in Germany was not doing enough to stop fascism, which is correct.

0:49:59 Lydia: It is easy to satisfy Goldman's demand in naming some members since they self -identify as members of Antifa. One such student came from my campus and proclaimed that Antifa was winning after his arrest for property destruction.

0:50:12 Matt: Okay. There's one. We've got one. Property of destruction.

0:50:15 Lydia: When another radical was arrested for taking an axe to a congressional office he self -identified as a member of antifa what yeah what is he linking to this

0:50:22 Matt: Also property of destruction or

0:50:24 Thomas: It's like it's it's Like it's They Could Have Also Self -Identified As Communists But You Wouldn't Be Like Okay Communism Is A Terrorist Organization Like What That Doesn't Make Sense Right Yeah

0:50:30 Matt: Satanists. That's actually an organization. There is an American Communist Party that exists. You can have a card.

0:50:40 Thomas: But That's Not What I Said I Said Like Communism

0:50:42 Matt: I know. I know I'm just making the point, but yes, lower C communism.

0:50:43 Thomas: As A Thing Yeah. Like if there were a registered organization such as Antifa, then maybe that would be the same. But it's like taking the ideology itself and saying like that means this is a terrorist organization. They're identifying as part of a like movement in an ideology. Right. And they might do things among themselves in a way. But unless you can find like a an organized like cell that's doing terrorism, I mean, maybe that exists. Maybe there's... there's like some group that's Doing something anti fascist in a way that, you know, could look like that. But the whole, all of Antifa is like, that's hard to do.

0:51:25 Matt: This is his chance. And you'll notice, I'm going to spoil this. He's not going to talk about anybody getting killed or even really really harmed in any of these examples, which seems to be notable.

0:51:32 Lydia: This guy with the axe I just clicked on it um uh it was a single charge of destruction of government property and he uses this case to basically excuse what happened on on january 6th

0:51:41 Matt: And it was Fargo, North Dakota. Fargo North Dakota. This is not, yeah.

0:51:44 Lydia: Fargo north dakota yeah yeah

0:51:47 Matt: Sorry, Fargo.

0:51:47 Thomas: One even cares about the government there. I'm just kidding.

0:51:50 Lydia: Before

0:51:50 Matt: Oh, and the student, I should add, like the 20 -year -old he's talking about on his campus, he destroyed a statue of Andrew Jackson, who probably shouldn't have a statue. So, yeah, all right. Yeah.

0:51:58 Lydia: Before Kyle Benjamin Douglas Calvert, 26, implanted an IED device outside of Alabama attorney general Steve Marshall's office in downtown Montgomery he put up stickers reading quote support your local antifa oh

0:52:12 Matt: Very important detail. That device was put, and again, I'm not saying you should do this, but it was put at 3 .42 in the morning and exploded clearly at a time when they knew nobody would be there.

0:52:21 Lydia: When no one was going to be there yeah

0:52:22 Matt: This is weather underground type stuff. Again, I'm trying to draw a line. Obviously, there's a big difference between putting an IED on the middle of the street on a Saturday and early in the morning. I just want to point that out. But again, these are such isolated examples.

0:52:36 Thomas: Yeah. And I just think if you if you want to go down this route, I think you're and you are actually serious because I can imagine trying to concoct a definition of this that I mean, you might be worried about if you're law enforcement, I guess, in certain situations, if there's groups, but you would overwhelmingly first want to look at, OK, what about these incel groups that are doing mass shootings? You know, quite a quite the clip.

0:52:59 Thomas: And those kind of organizations are much more harmful. And they're not really organizations, but those kinds of like and again, it's a weird comparison. It's like a group of like minded people who are doing a similar thing. They're not in like an official organization, kind of similar to Antifa.

0:52:59 Lydia: Besides like looking at the same websites right like that that's the most organized it is

0:53:18 Thomas: But and but this one but but the the incel that whole culture that is way more harmful like I would you would want to look at that first before this is

0:53:26 Matt: I will point out the Cato Institute immediately after the Charlie Kirk shooting put out good numbers on ideological violence. And just to make the point, anything that could be tied to left -wing violence is about 22 % of all of it and anything tied to right-wing violence at 54%. So I think that is notable as well. Yeah, violent centrists.

0:53:44 Thomas: The rest the centrists they're just like I'm doing a little terrorism from both sides you know

0:53:52 Lydia: Numerous antifa members have been arrested including some who claim to be journalists many protesters belong to antifa groups that have names like rose city antifa and offshoots like like Love and Rage and Mexico's Amor y Rabia, Antifa members have been elected to the French and European parliaments. I guess.

0:54:11 Thomas: It's an international a transnational terrorist organization what

0:54:15 Lydia: Rutgers professor Mark Bray's Antifa, the anti -fascist handbook, called by some the Antifa Bible, explains that the group is united in its opposition to free speech. Quote, most Americans in Antifa have been anarchists or anti -authoritarian communists, he writes. From that standpoint, free speech as such is merely a bourgeois fantasy unworthy of consideration.

0:54:38 Matt: So I haven't read the book. That sounds like it's out of context, but I just want to point it again. I think it would be only fair that he mentioned that Mark Gray was just driven out of the United States because of people associated with Turning Point USA who harassed him until he had to leave the country. One of the first American political refugees, not the last, unfortunately.

0:54:52 Thomas: And what did he do, Matt? Did he kill somebody or was it speech?

0:54:56 Matt: He wrote a book. He read a book, and I just want to point out too uh Rose City Antifa is a legendary group it actually was originally founded in 2007 but originally came out of an anti -racist action group and there's a great interview which I'm going to link to uh with kelly hayes uh yeah originally yeah and uh so but their whole thing was opposing because at the time in the 80s and 90s there was a real skinhead problem in portland and they organized to keep skinheads out of public places which is a really good idea because

0:55:18 Lydia: Law

0:55:21 Thomas: And now they all are dressed up like cops. So it's fine.

0:55:24 Matt: Right uh but there's uh so much you can find out there about what happens if you let a couple of skinheads into your bar. It becomes a skinhead bar. The whole strategy for these people is to take places over. And that's the Nazi strategy generally, is you don't have two sides, you just try to take over. The Nazis always said they would do that, and that's why we have to have this.

0:55:41 Thomas: And and they come in pretending it's about free speech often. They're like, oh, you can't handle our argument. You can't hearing. You know, I brought it up before, but in the 1930s Nazi rally at Madison Square Garden that we covered on WTW, literally that fucking Nazi makes a speech. The guy like the MC of it. The MC Nazi is like, yeah, they can't handle our arguments. They're going to respond to our, like the same free speech shit that we hear now. It's the same. It'S just a natural tactic that people with awful, shitty views will do because they can'T argue Nazism. They'RE not going to say yet. They 'Re not going to SAY like, you should all be Nazis. TheyRE going to first say, you SHOULD be open to hearing different ideas. And IT'S just so obviously how they would would do it. And I'm like, just stop falling for it. It's not real.

0:56:24 Lydia: Enforcement

0:56:28 Matt: The actual history of Antifa in America is rooted in anti -racism and opposing the kinds of people that try to overtake these spaces. He's not going to tell you that. It.

0:56:37 Thomas: And the point I was trying to make before is like, look, I don't know these groups. If it happened that one of those groups did like terrorism or something like regularly, okay. You could say that group might be a terrorist group. Like if they just happened to be, you know, but you can't say Antifa is a terrorist group, it doesn't make sense. Right. It'd be like saying communism is a terrorist group oh

0:57:00 Lydia: Officials like former FBI director, Christopher Wray, have long debunked the deniers like Goldman. Antifa is a real thing, said Wray.

0:57:08 Matt: Would you like to know the rest of that quote?

0:57:08 Thomas: What a debunk when we do a debulk on dub t dub it takes like eight hours but we could just say like no not true done oh

0:57:18 Matt: I'm going to re -bunk this one, I think. So this is Christopher Wray's testimony, very famously in front of Congress in 2020. Here's the whole quote. Antifa is a real thing. It's not a group or an organization. It is a movement. Or an ideology, maybe one way of thinking of it. Yep. We have any number of...

0:57:33 Thomas: That sure is bad for the point you're making yeah that's weird yeah

0:57:39 Matt: And so he's making the point that they watch people who identify as this because there is the potential maybe for some of these people. And the German government and other European governments watch Antifa too, but they don't see it quite the same way. They see it as partially like potential. All of these things have potential to go the wrong way. But I just want to stress that the Antifa tactics are rooted in self -defense. That's the idea and defending communities.

0:58:01 Thomas: And I you know I'm not gonna pretend like like you mentioned with the skinhead thing there is an aspect to it that is don't even let them take root like don't so there there is like a proactive thing there. And there are members of Antifa who are willing to commit an amount of violence against Nazis because they have a belief that I think is correct, that there's no such thing as a peaceful Nazi. You cannot be like, I think that this is something that maybe, I don't know, maybe, maybe people listening will disagree with. I know a lot of people view speech as a firm designation that is fine. And then not anything that's action is like, that's a different thing. And speech can't be violence. But I think if you have a view that certain people in our society should be rounded up and killed, that that's violence. Like just having that view. There's no, I'm not interested in peaceful coexistence with someone who has that view because it is the paradox of tolerance. And you know, that, that is a real thing and you can't beat tolerance of intolerance. You just can't.

0:59:01 Matt: The very least, people should know who their neighbors are. And if it turns out that Hitler lover 69, this is one thing they do, is doxing people, exposing people. If he's running your local Chevron station, maybe you want to know that and not go there.

0:59:09 Thomas: And I would say the way to not have this be a problem is don't be a nazi that's the first easiest way to do it yeah that's

0:59:20 Matt: You won't be exposed.

0:59:23 Lydia: Ironically, when many on the left are not denying its existence, They are rallying their members or actually selling Antifa merchandise. Former Democratic National Committee Deputy Chair Keith Ellison, now the Minnesota attorney general, proclaimed that Antifa would, quote, strike fear in the heart of Trump. His own son.

0:59:39 Matt: He didn't actually say that. I just want to point out. What he said was that the Antifa handbook, he's holding a picture of the handbook and the tweet is going to strike fear in the heart of Donald Trump because it's such effective organizing tactics.

0:59:42 Thomas: A quote though uh yeah just

0:59:48 Lydia: Is is that what he's saying that the Antifa merchandises to like with him holding the book up?

0:59:53 Matt: That is actually, of all people, Pod Save America was selling Antifa onesies, which is kind of cute.

0:59:59 Thomas: Like a like a joke

0:59:59 Lydia: As a joke. Yeah. Yeah, clearly a joke, let's see. His own son, Minneapolis City Councilmember Jeremiah Ellison, declared his allegiance to Antifa in the heat of the protests this summer.

1:00:11 Thomas: Man you got a debunk for that one sure

1:00:12 Matt: I also didn't do that. I can read you the tweet. I hereby declare officially my support for Antifa. It's obviously a joke. Unless someone can prove to me Antifa is behind the burning of black and immigrant -owned businesses in my ward, I'll keep focusing on stopping the white power are terrorists in caps that are actually attacking us.

1:00:27 Matt: So this is in response to Trump declaring or trying to declare Antifa a terrorist organization in 2020.

1:00:31 Thomas: Seems like missing important context slash the rest of a bunch of quotes is this guy's mo all

1:00:38 Matt: This is him.

1:00:37 Lydia: But with Antifa violence on the rise, Democratic leaders have gone back to denying its existence even as Antifa deploys its signature black hoodies and masks.

1:00:48 Thomas: Right but I think you need to look at the the context that pho violence is on the rise. So anti -pho is gonna, you know, it's

1:00:55 Matt: We're not talking about the FUH here.

1:00:56 Lydia: I see what you're doing.

1:00:56 Thomas: Like there's a bunch more protons. It's

1:00:58 Lydia: You said pho, and my mind went to, like, the Vietnamese noodle dish, and I was not processing what you were saying.

1:00:59 Thomas: Like, yeah, well, you now. Yeah. It is time we put an end to the violence of pho.

1:01:06 Matt: I am pro -FUH. I will go on record for that.

1:01:08 Thomas: Pro

1:01:08 Lydia: I'm also pro -pho, if that's what we're talking about.

1:01:08 Thomas: -phi.

1:01:11 Matt: But I also very quickly will point out that the black -black thing, so people are terrified of the black black, which is sort of the more radical and more like willing to use violence. And again, usually almost always and Self -Defense at protests. But that signature Black Hoodies and Masked Things, it's a very, very small percentage of people who identify as Antifa that will even do that. It takes, you have to be pretty brave to do that, okay?

1:01:28 Lydia: Interesting. Indeed, some liberal activists admit to having coordinated violent protests with Antifa groups. For example, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill professor Dwayne Dixon was a member of the radical gun club Redneck Revolt, a group recently referenced in flyers quoting the assassin of Charlie Kirk to rally the left. The flyers read, Hey, fascist, catch the only political group that celebrates when Nazis die.

1:01:56 Thomas: Celebrating someone dying is different than committing murder. Can I I just say. If it's true that this radical gun club and redneck revolt is committing murders, I don't know anything about them. Maybe they are. If they are a, you know, a motorcycle gang of murderers that goes around terrorizing people, then that's a different story. If they're just like, hey, we're glad that this Nazi died. That's not a crime. That speech, actually.

1:02:19 Lydia: That is speech. Yeah. During a panel at Harvard University, Dixon reportedly admitted that an Antifa -linked group requested his gun club to provide security during the August 2017 Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia. Quote, prior to that day, as the planning for the defense of CharlottESville proceeded, the local anarchist People of Color Collective had requested that Redneck Revolt be present to secure Justice Park for a wide variety of activists who were expected to assemble. Humble.

1:02:44 Matt: Hey, Jonathan, why do you think they need to have armed security at these things? Maybe because the Proud Boys exist and all these other groups that are showing up ready for violence for

1:02:44 Thomas: Wait, what? Well, wait, during the Unite the Right rally? I'm not understanding this requested

1:02:54 Lydia: Yeah. So so this guy. Well, he's saying an Antifa linked group was asking for his club to provide security. So like recognizing like, oh, and like, and this is truly an organized group because look, they called me and they said, hey, we need your support.

1:03:03 Matt: A counter -protest, but

1:03:01 Thomas: He is going oh for a counter protest okay well once again it says antifa linked it doesn't say antifa registered corporate headquarters

1:03:14 Lydia: Antifa. Yeah, yeah. E -I -N. Ben.

1:03:19 Matt: And somebody Somebody died that day. I mean, and more people could have died. And there's reporting that the hardcore right-wing Nazi types were cowed somewhat by the fact that there were defenders there to defend the counter -protesters. These people are showing up armed.

1:03:36 Thomas: It's weird that it's called the unite the right rally it's not called the to kill the right right anti the fa rally it's called unite the Right and so it seems like that wasn't really their whole doing right I mean did antifa put on the unite the right rally that's what I'm asking are they the ones doing that oh

1:03:54 Matt: They didn't kill Heather Heyer.

1:03:56 Lydia: The denial of the existence of an actual group is meant to deflect the discussion of the rising violence from the left as these same politicians fuel the rage with reckless rhetoric. But they're not so good at keeping their story straight. It's funny coming from you, Jonathan Turley. While whipping up the mob with claims that democracy is dying and comparing their opponents to Nazis, they deny the existence of the very group that politicians like Ellison praise for targeting conservatives.

1:04:08 Matt: They aren't. Yeah. Not

1:04:23 Lydia: I was pausing to see if you guys had thoughts there.

1:04:23 Matt: A group.

1:04:24 Thomas: Was that him well I wasn't sure if he had an example or if he's just saying

1:04:28 Lydia: That's where that paragraph ends.

1:04:29 Matt: Examples.

1:04:31 Lydia: Hoover declined to admit the mafia existed until on November 14th, 1957, dozens of mobsters were found meeting in a farmhouse in Apalachin, New York. What is different is that Antifa has repeatedly had such farmhouse moments, with prosecutions revealing a national movement with self -identified members.

1:04:30 Thomas: It's almost over thank god

1:04:49 Lydia: So why?

1:04:49 Matt: Show me one. One prosecution.

1:04:51 Lydia: There's no link there. There's a link to other things.

1:04:45 Thomas: What yeah yeah yeah there yeah

1:04:51 Matt: One example. There's no far... That meeting in Apalachin New York is extremely famous, major leaders of organized crime. If there was even an online meeting, a Zoom meeting that has been exposed, please let me know.

1:05:04 Lydia: So why the denial? These are the shock troops for some politicians who think that they can use the violent group for political advantage. They are mistaken. Antifa is unlikely to have much use for establishment liberals once it gains more power.

1:05:18 Matt: Once it gains power, the idea they want power, that that's what it exists for, anarchists, they just want to take over everything. This is a defensive group.

1:05:25 Lydia: Until then, Antifa can count on the goldmans of the world to give them cover in denying that they exist. In the film The Usual Suspects, the character Verbal Kent offered this explanation for the invisible villain Kaiser Soze. Quote, the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist great

1:05:49 Matt: Second time, by the way, that he's compared Atif to the usual suspects. I don't know why he likes this quote so much. That quote also is not original.

1:05:53 Lydia: That's so weird yeah

1:05:54 Thomas: Just fun trivia fact the devil doesn't exist so you know it's kind of similar yeah other works of fiction yeah really

1:05:59 Matt: But yeah, I'm convinced. Uh, but also that quote goes back to like the 1850s. That is not something that was written in the usual suspects, but, uh, sure. Uh, yeah. So thanks a lot, Jonathan. I've learned nothing here. Uh. I don't even know what you're trying to say. And honestly, we could, we were not going to do it. We'd go back and read his previous column about Antifa where he explains in detail about why they're not a group and why they shouldn't be held accountable as a domestic terror organization. But that was just like last year. So, you know, yeah,

1:06:09 Lydia: Man yeah yeah

1:06:20 Thomas: Well that was so that was the thing he said he hand waved off as as well free speech concerns so you're saying it was more than just that yeah

1:06:27 Lydia: Man

1:06:31 Matt: No, well, he was, he was really, he Was giving the same problems that we give that is too amorphous and you're You're going to have a lot of people caught up in this thing because it doesn't exist. But that was then. We can link to it. People can read it for themselves. But

1:06:41 Thomas: But I so I I haven't read it and I like that he he did think to say hey I did you know do that right he referenced it and he was like that's for free I did oppose declaring antivirus due to free speech concerns. Okay, what changed? I wonder.

1:06:49 Lydia: He did reference it Oh,

1:06:58 Thomas: Free speech doesn't exist anymore?

1:06:58 Matt: Between now and June. Oh, that was

1:07:01 Thomas: Well, now that we don't care about the First Amendment as much, I guess it's fine now.

1:07:01 Matt: June 4th, 2020. Yeah. So yeah,

1:07:03 Lydia: That was in 2020. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

1:07:10 Thomas: All right. Well, are we taking our final quick break here? And then we've got a fun amuse douche, maybe?

1:07:13 Matt: Let's do it.

1:07:13 Lydia: Get me away. Yeah!

1:07:17 Thomas: No, that goes in the beginning, huh? We need a different name for this, I think. I guess.

1:07:21 Lydia: Dessert douche. Yeah douchey dessert.

1:07:24 Thomas: Matt do you have anything good for us you do wordplay

1:07:26 Lydia: Whatever. Oh, I

1:07:27 Matt: I hadn't thought of it yet.

1:07:27 Lydia: Thought you were making fun of my thing. Oh you are.

1:07:30 Thomas: Well I think it's we need a better idea while I read patron names matt come up with a better idea but no uh this uh final break uh or not the break itself but the stuff coming after the break brought to you by these amazing patrons our last batch of hall of famers at patreon.com/law a negative phenomenon Phenomenon. Deep in the bloops. Unfrozen caveman lawyer.

1:07:32 Lydia: Are oh bloops

1:07:35 Matt: I think I will.

1:07:51 Thomas: Nick Fish. David Souther.

1:07:50 Lydia: We just saw nick fish by the way shout out to nick fish

1:07:55 Thomas: Awesome. That was fun. Probably a real person. Apprentice of adventure. Fourth circuit attorney reluctantly changing her font. Charlie Kelly, attorney at Birdlaw. Normalized bi -directional spooning. Yeah, damn right. That's a Dear Old Dads reference.

1:08:09 Lydia: It's another dad's yeah oh

1:08:12 Thomas: Sionitis. Do geese see God? Oh that's a that's uh a palindrome mike lapinski protect trans kids deep space nine was the best star trek donna tread away that's common two different thoughts I think but but still related but uh donna treadaway mother of harridans unremarkable and Vetinari for America 2028 one man one vote I don't know what that is what does that mean ah

1:08:16 Lydia: Palindrome yeah

1:08:37 Matt: All right. Good to send it. It's the patrician from the Discworld books. Veterinary. One of the better characters.

1:08:42 Thomas: Okay cool well I didn't know know that I'm glad I have you anyway

1:08:44 Lydia: I didn't know that either you should have heard thomas and I stumble over that name in patron shout outs past because we did not know the reference

1:08:49 Thomas: Now I'm so glad that we have you for these now again it's nice uh all right final quick break and then we're gonna get to candace owens and oh I can't wait okay where do we begin with this somebody introduce it

1:08:54 Lydia: And josh hammer yeah where do we begin

1:09:00 Matt: Are we ever? Want to call this some sort of some kind of digestif. I'm playing with digestif, I haven't come up with it yet. But so, yeah, Chet.

1:09:10 Thomas: Douche chest deep I don't

1:09:16 Matt: Yeah. So we're going to watch a quick video of Josh Hammer. Again, one of the editors at large of Newsweek, the opinion editor at Newsweek rather, one of the people that we identified as making Newsweek a lot worse, personally. And he used to be with a number of conservative organizations. I think he at some point probably knew or was friends with Candace Owens. He's obviously in some kind of group chat with her. That's how those came all about. But some kind of nutty stuff is going to come out here about their fight. So I have some timestamps if you want to pull up. And we're gonna have to listen to Josh Josh Hammer. And I do have to give special thanks to Olivia for actually watching this because I don't want to watch it more than once.

1:09:52 Lydia: Well candace owens video was over an hour um basically like like her conspiracy minded theories about what's happening here a lot of people two point something million people watch that particular video.

1:09:56 Matt: I didn't want to touch that. This all has to do with Charlie Kirk.

1:10:07 Thomas: Know I think it's one billionaire in a trench coat no that doesn't make sense

1:10:10 Lydia: You know, like a bot farm, just pressing play.

1:10:13 Thomas: One billionaire with a bunch of bots in a wrench coat all right give me the times

1:10:16 Lydia: Could be. 154 is where we're going to start.

1:10:22 Thomas: Preparing myself god I fucking hate this guy oh you set it up or am I oh gotcha

1:10:22 Matt: Just to set this up. This will set

1:10:26 Lydia: Just to set it up this yet.

1:10:27 Matt: It up.

1:10:28 Thomas: Sure okay I was any other ways I can avoid pushing play on this okay oh

1:10:34 Clip: But lo and behold, I turn my phone back on to see that I am at the epicenter of an insane Candace Owens neo -Nazi conspiracy theory. In theory, Candace Owens doubling down on now a month -long of lunatic allegations that the Jewish people, the Jews, the State of Israel, all the above, individual Jews, collective Jews, Jewish nation, whatever, just Jews in general, had something to do with the horrific assassination of my

1:10:35 Thomas: He said did someone chipmunks his voice like did they yeah talk faster

1:11:15 Clip: Friend Charlie Kirk.

1:11:16 Thomas: I can't

1:11:17 Lydia: All right. No pause. That's our intro. So that's what we have going on here is that Candace Owens is kind of implying that there are other forces at play that got Charlie Kirk assassinated.

1:11:17 Thomas: Do this fuck okay yeah wait why do we have to play something where he's correct to be mad about this you know like I don't I don'T want to agree with this guy fuck that I hate it why are you doing this to me oh

1:11:40 Lydia: I know. All right. So let's kind of get into specifically what's how she is pulling in Josh Hammer into this conspiracy. So that's 1225.

1:11:53 Thomas: Good that's that gets us pretty far in this one I appreciate that all right let's hear from this little little guy I

1:12:02 Clip: Sift out what happened when I believe it's on the second day of our holiday that candace found a tweet of mine from around the time of charlie's death and used it as a way of alleging that I had some sort of foreknowledge in it the the tweet happened

1:12:26 Lydia: Pause. I

1:12:29 Thomas: Was about to go get some housework done while that was going.

1:12:31 Lydia: Know he does. Does take his sweet, sweet time in explaining everything that's going on. But yeah, so she did pull up this tweet of his and he shows it on the screen, right? Does he? Yeah, right there.

1:12:44 Thomas: Oh, do I need to pull it back up?

1:12:45 Matt: Yeah.

1:12:45 Lydia: I can just read it. Candace Owen says, I knew nothing about Josh Hammer's random tweet about public executions the night before Charlie was publicly executed. In what context does that That tweet makes sense. Literally WTF. Josh Hammer had said, where is it?

1:13:02 Thomas: Well, I know that Charlie Kirk himself was a fan of those. So does that mean Charlie Kirk had something to do with this assassination?

1:13:08 Lydia: Yeah. It's like it's the timing of this. Right. That like has Candace Owens spidey sense going off where Donald Trump said should be public execution for all to see. You will end this bullshit fast from 2013. And Josh Hammer shared it the night before.

1:13:14 Thomas: Here, I'll try to pull that up here.

1:13:23 Matt: But he was talking about the Iryna Zarutska killing in North Carolina, specifically, which was horrible.

1:13:28 Thomas: The what?

1:13:29 Matt: The Ukrainian woman who was killed on public transit by a mentally disturbed person. And yeah,

1:13:35 Thomas: So this is what he brought up on screen. This is 40 things. What? I can't.

1:13:38 Lydia: So within it, you'll see the Donald Trump um tweet in the middle yep

1:13:41 Thomas: Okay. Should Should be public execution for all to see you will end this bullshit fast. Oh, wait, but that's 2013. What?

1:13:48 Lydia: And then 2013 and so then he reposted it just recently and said based and then candace owens is saying this is the night before charlie was murdered why would you like have shared this something else is going on yeah not in candace Owens's mind

1:13:51 Thomas: Based. Okay. Because it was related to the fucking stabbing. Right?

1:14:07 Matt: That makes a lot more sense than saying, hey, Charlie Kirk should die tomorrow.

1:14:10 Thomas: I know. That's the thing I love about conspiracy theorists is they think that for some reason the people doing the conspiracy, they have to like declare it in secret ways beforehand. Or not even secret. They have to declare it in like coded ways, but publicly. Why, why would he, why, why would he do that? It doesn't matter. If he was actually involved, what would be the point of that?

1:14:27 Lydia: My theory is that her her feud with ben shapiro and why she had to leave the daily wire and stuff is now just like being applied to this person who is a version of ben shapuro and she's just continuing that that feud uh 1336 is going to be our next clip all

1:14:45 Thomas: Can't falter for that. Yeah. Okay. Okay,

1:14:58 Clip: To be an unapologetic long -time proponent of the firing squad method of execution and or potentially in really extreme circumstances public executions I've said this for years for

1:15:11 Thomas: Man.

1:15:13 Lydia: There we go in

1:15:14 Clip: A very simple and defense so

1:15:14 Thomas: I love it. Now you see my defense of myself is I'm fucking awful.

1:15:16 Lydia: Order to defend myself self and

1:15:19 Thomas: Yeah, and he's right.

1:15:19 Matt: I'm a psycho.

1:15:20 Lydia: And I would like people to

1:15:22 Thomas: Like, yeah, that is right.

1:15:22 Lydia: Die in the most insane

1:15:23 Thomas: Right. You are. And by that, I mean, this is a defense of him. Like he's right in this interaction with Candace Owens, which I hate. No, no.

1:15:24 Lydia: Way yeah he's like yeah I I love and and like the firing

1:15:33 Thomas: I always say fucking disgusting things about public executions. And you're like, well, you got me there. That's true.

1:15:33 Lydia: Squad yeah so

1:15:39 Matt: I'm on the record here. Go back. Find it. This

1:15:41 Lydia: Gross uh

1:15:43 Thomas: You win. You win that point.

1:15:46 Lydia: So then we're gonna skip to 1517 to get a little bit more into candace uh implying his involvement involvement

1:15:47 Thomas: Who

1:15:54 Clip: Candace owens takes this and starts to imply that I was foreshadowing charlie

1:16:00 Thomas: Would watch this? Who would walk this? I'm

1:16:02 Lydia: No

1:16:03 Clip: Kirk's assassination because that was a a public assassination.

1:16:08 Clip: So the implication is that I had foreknowledge of, at minimum, and potentially at maximum, was somehow complicit or involved in the murder of my own friend.

1:16:17 Thomas: Just going to, I'm I'm just going to rest my eyes.

1:16:27 Clip: A murder that I was openly, bitterly weeping over for days.

1:16:30 Thomas: Can I turn the speed up on this, please? Blah, blah, blah. It takes an hour.

1:16:35 Lydia: We're almost done we

1:16:37 Matt: Definitely needed to be 30 minutes

1:16:37 Clip: The day after the murder, when I was recording my show, The Josh Hammer Show, I broke down crying during the recording for the very first time in the history of my show.

1:16:42 Thomas: Oh, that's for sure. Oh,

1:16:48 Lydia: Can stop there

1:16:48 Thomas: I thought he was going to say for the history of his life. I was confused about what it was. I was like, water's coming out of my face. What is this? I don't have emotions because I'm a man.

1:16:49 Clip: It was an uncommon failure

1:16:51 Lydia: In his entire life man uh and then this is our last clip of of him so 1657

1:17:06 Clip: This week. You have to be someone that is, or maybe rather someone that is possessed by something that is less than human, subhuman, to do that. There's no humanity in you. That is why I named Josh Hammer.

1:17:19 Thomas: To do what?

1:17:21 Matt: Be Josh Hammer.

1:17:22 Clip: I believe he is a deeply disturbed man. Filth, okay?

1:17:29 Thomas: Huh?

1:17:29 Clip: Absolute filth. I don't understand it. I can't comprehend it. Whatever that is that lives in him does not live in me. There's no truth in him. Obviously, there's no proof in Josh Hammer.

1:17:31 Thomas: What? There was a cut there, I think.

1:17:40 Clip: I know we won't get answers from you, but let me promise you that if I get a text message to the effect that you were somehow involved in him feeling anxiety the day before, if you did something that gave him anxiety in that way, I will release it instantly. There will be no place that you can hide.

1:17:40 Thomas: No fucking truth in either of you. What you're gonna have to decode I don't know what the fuck she's talking about no are you gonna explain any of that because I don'T KNOW WHAT THAT WAS so she somebody had a text that happened hmm

1:18:00 Clip: Filth. Subhuman.

1:18:03 Lydia: We can start so I mean her what what it kind of like comes down to Yeah. Yeah. So there's... there's these group chats. There's a text between Josh Hammer and Charlie Kirk where Charlie Kirk is, you know, they lost a big Jewish donor to Turning Point about two million dollars a year.

1:18:22 Thomas: I did hear about that it's

1:18:25 Lydia: And so Charlie was feeling like frustrated about that and was talking with Josh about it. And Candace's position is that Charlie was wanting to step away from pro -Israel policies and things like that and that that's what got him killed. Right. And there's just it's hard to like like pull this all apart because it's just coming from the mind of a crazy person.

1:18:44 Thomas: Silly it's stupid as much as I hate israel that's dumb it doesn't make any sense it's not like there's no way that charlie kirk was gonna become like a defender of palestinians like that wasn't gonna happen And if anything, he might just like not emphasize stuff and there's no reason you would kill him over that. It's dumb.

1:18:58 Lydia: So, yeah. Yeah, and then there's actually a Daily Mail piece that came out today because Hammer has said that he's considering suing for defamation because he's, you know, he's talking to lawyers. He's not happy about what Candace Owens is saying. Owens responded to the Daily Mail piece and said Josh Hammer is lashing out due to embarrassment. He vociferously lied about the state of Charlie's mind toward Israel before his tragic death. And I revealed him legal warfare will no longer be used to bury the truth.

1:19:33 Thomas: I wish them both a very long, expensive, protected legal battle. Have fun.

1:19:38 Matt: Well, right after she finished up with the president of France and his wife, suing her for that ridiculous.

1:19:43 Lydia: Her lawsuits.

1:19:45 Matt: But I will point out, too, that Charlie Kirk lost that donor because he would not denounce Tucker Carlson. So just to bring in one more terrible person into the chat.

1:19:45 Lydia: Nonsense. Sense. Right. Right? Yeah,

1:19:54 Matt: So, yeah, this is what's going on in the world of horrible people who hate each other.

1:19:59 Lydia: And yeah, I'm with you, Thomas. I hope that they just

1:20:01 Thomas: Who watches this, though? Like, I just it's one thing when they're like, you know, doing their Nazi schtick and Nazis are probably like, awesome. I love this. I'm a Nazi. But like when they're just like talking about the drama between them, like who, dude, who cares?

1:20:03 Lydia: Pursue legal remedies, please. Yeah?

1:20:18 Matt: She did an hour on this. He did a half hour on THIS.

1:20:21 Thomas: God, maybe they do. I mean, they have, I know, I joke, they haven't infinite more viewers and listeners than we do. Just so you know, we're doing the same thing.

1:20:23 Lydia: Well, and they're not done. Like they're going to keep keep going yeah

1:20:28 Matt: And if you could get that beautiful voice going, Thomas, if you could just replicate.

1:20:33 Thomas: Oh, whoa. Holy shit. Our numbers just went crazy through the roof. Have you ever considered that

1:20:36 Lydia: Man oh

1:20:41 Matt: Wow, we got, so Lydia can turn into Jake Tapper and you can turn into Josh Hammer. It's pretty good.

1:20:44 Thomas: Feelings are bad and when people are you know people are mean to you it's good because your feelings are mad oh my god I'm I what a million dollars just came through my door just right away oh boy no it's um you know you have to sell out to the billionaires and the far right to uh to get that money and we are not not yet willing to do that.

1:20:47 Lydia: My god yeah yeah but but this is very much like this uh like candace owens at the the foot of like christianity evangelical evangelical christianty and then josh hammer at at the foot of like, you know, very, very intense Judaism. And this kind of war of religion, I think ultimately is what this is coming down to in this particular instance. So I mean,

1:21:28 Thomas: I guess. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but I might defend religion in whatever the hell you're talking about. I don't think it has anything to do with the nonsense from these idiots. This is conspiracy theory nonsense.

1:21:33 Lydia: Well, yeah. Oh, no, I think it. Yes. But conspiracy theory that is laid on top of religion. And I mean Josh Hammer talked about it at the beginning of his video. We didn't get into to it. But he said that, you know, Candace Owens released this video right when he was shutting down his phone for 50 hours in in, you Know, observing a Jewish holiday, so he wouldn't be able to like engage. And so there's a little bit of conspiracy theory stuff kind of happening from both ends of things.

1:22:03 Thomas: Wonder if that's true. That'd be interesting.

1:22:06 Lydia: But yeah, yeah.

1:22:06 Matt: Obviously, I mean, Candace Owens really is losing it, like beyond where she was. She's become a rabid anti-Semite. And of course, he is a rabit Israel supporter as noted, again, we've noted before the books behind him, his one one book um but he's uh so you know obviously we're not cheering for either of these people that's not this is really truly alien v predator that's

1:22:27 Lydia: Yeah, and and I mean, I guess he needs to also also consider when he's looking at defamation that he also like, you know, names all the things that she has left that she has, you Know, not been able to stick with or whatever. And now that she's seemingly like a mental patient, I think is what he says at one point. And that's not not a great look. But yeah, yes, yes.

1:22:50 Thomas: But it's hyperbole, so he's covered there. Or is it? I don't know. I guess if it's a claim about actual, you know, in the countersuit, we'll see. We'll follow it. But gavel gavel.

1:22:58 Lydia: We'll see. Oh, we will that'd be a fun gavel gavel.

1:23:01 Thomas: No, we still need to get to the, what am I thinking of? The, oh God.

1:23:04 Lydia: Laura Loomer or Bill Maher. Yeah.

1:23:06 Thomas: Yeah, we got to get into that. I want to do that really badly.

1:23:07 Lydia: It's our next one.

1:23:08 Thomas: Maybe. All right. Are we done? Did we get through it?

1:23:10 Lydia: We are done.

1:23:12 Thomas: All right, well, that was fun. These people all fucking suck. That was our theme. These people fucking suck and are liars. I don't even think they're not getting it, Matt. I disagree with your interpretation. They're lying.

1:23:26 Matt: All yeah that's true but they're willfully not getting it that was my point is that they are willfully missing everything

1:23:29 Thomas: They understand lying and they understand it fully and they go into it with open eyes and they know they're lying yeah that's uh that's where I'm coming from

1:23:33 Lydia: They're intellectually dishonest. Yeah yeah

1:23:34 Matt: And they've made a career all these people have made a career out of that exact thing you

1:23:40 Thomas: And it pays and they got huge audiences they're doing better than us and they've taken over the country everybody so support media that doesn't suck patreon patreon.com/law. Thank you so much, thanks Matt, thanks Lydia, thanks listeners, and top patrons. So glad to do the shout-outs again. So make sure to get your new names in before next, I don't know, week, say Monday to be safe, probably.

1:23:48 Lydia: Thank you. Yeah Monday.

1:24:01 Thomas: And then we'll do those shout-outs again. They're so fun. If you want to get at the shout-out level, you got to go to that Hall of Fame level on patreon.com/law. All right. I think that's it, right? Well, so long. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next time or watching.

1:24:10 Lydia: Yeah that'll do it. See ya.

1:24:16 Thomas: I assume people had the video on with their eyes closed and they're just listening to it.

1:24:11 Matt: Got it later okay

1:24:25 Clip: This has been Opening Arguments, produced by Thomas and Lydia Smith, with editing help from Peter Baird. The intro is by Thomas Smith. This outro is by Matt Cameron. Support the show at patreon.com/law. Contact us through Patreon or openarguments@gmail.com. Make sure to follow our blue sky at OpenArgs. But most of all, please share the show. Thanks for listening.