Jake Tapper on his new book, and the controversy surrounding his last one

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:09 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Opening Arguments. I'm Thomas Smith. That over there is real life attorney, Matt Cameron, and we are joined by Jake Tapper. So happy to have you. How are you doing?

0:00:18 Jake: I'm great. Great to be here. Thanks so much.

0:00:21 Matt: Yeah, no, we're very excited about this and love the book Race Against Terror. We'll get into it pretty soon here. But before we get to that, I know there's something that our listeners are going to want to ask you about. You were involved in a divisive project in which you've exposed infightings and legal troubles, a lot of drama around a beloved American family, a family beset by tragedy, something you've taken a lot of heat for. And of course, as anybody listening to this must know by now, I'm referring to your 2002 VH1 special, Leonard Skinner's Uncivil War.

0:00:46 Jake: I was wondering where this was going to go. I am like, oh

0:00:48 Thomas: Should we roll the tape? Should we roll the tap? Hold on. Wait, this is an expose.

0:00:52 Matt: Let's take a look at 2002

0:00:53 Jake: Here we go.

0:00:53 Thomas: Here we go.

0:00:54 Matt: Jake Tapper on VH2.

0:00:55 Clip: What do you think of the band now? Still touring, still selling a million records a year. Yeah, I think they should play as long as they want. You know, I mean, hey, it's a great thing, you know, when you're out there playing and it doesn't matter how old you are, you can keep it going. I think that's a good thing. You really think that? No.

0:01:12 Clip: I mean I don't think that. You got nine people in that band. Two of them are original members. Gary said that they're basically a tribute band. He said that? Yeah. Well, good for him. He's come to the realization that's what it is.

0:01:25 Matt: Perfect.

0:01:25 Thomas: Okay.

0:01:25 Matt: I love it.

0:01:26 Thomas: Hard hitting.

0:01:26 Matt: Unironically, great stuff. No, no. And I also had that haircut in 2002, so no worries on that.

0:01:31 Jake: I am just so embarrassed by it. Everything about that look is wrong and upsetting, including the tightness of the shirt with the belly. There was a lot of bourbon in that belly, I'll tell you that. Um, I will say this. So I, I joined VH1 to learn about how to be a TV journalist. I had been a print journalist and, and, uh, and uh, this was an opportunity to learn how to make mistakes and, um, and to, and to do an hour special on Leonard Skinner. And, um, I'm, I, I I'm proud of that, uh, that documentary, which is still on YouTube. I think you can, you can find it. That was the late great Ed King, by the way, who came up with, that's him.

0:02:00 Thomas: Do a Leonard Skinner thing. Oh, okay. Yeah. Time honored tradition. Yeah.

0:02:06 Matt: Which, yeah, it's great. Yes. Yeah. Fantastic. Exactly. Legend.

0:02:21 Jake: He, he came up với that, a great guy, but you know, what?

0:02:21 Thomas: Oh there you go.

0:02:21 Matt: Legend. Yeah, I know. And you're a fan, I take it. You're a skinnered fan. You must be. Me too.

0:02:28 Jake: I yeah, their music's great. I love, I know that they were not that happy with the documentary because it exposed, um, And I love the seriousness with which I'm throughout the documentary. The rule of three was when after this horrible car plane accident, they decided that Leonard Skinner can continue, but they always had to have three original members in order to continue. And I was pointing out the fact that they were going on, even though they only had two original members. And, you know, if you're not really that upset about the violation of that clause, then the documentary might not be for you. But I committed, I committed to the, my, my.

0:02:40 Matt: It's a serious subject. Right.

0:03:05 Thomas: Was that like a, your palms are sweaty. You're ready to call them on this. This is your Frost Nixon moment and Frost Skinner.

0:03:13 Jake: How great was that interview?

0:03:15 Thomas: Yeah.

0:03:15 Jake: You really think that?

0:03:16 Matt: No.

0:03:16 Jake: No. I loved Ed. I was very upset to hear that he, he was not happy with the documentary and, and, you know, and no, I don't think anybody associated with Skinner was, but he was, he was such a, he Was such a fun guy, uh, to meet. And that was, that was a fun documentary to work on.

0:03:17 Matt: It was so good. I love that moment. No. Yeah. Well, you've never met anybody upset since then. So that's, you know. Yeah. When

0:03:36 Jake: I was not expecting, I was not expecting a, a uncivil war. That's what, that's what it was titled.

0:03:36 Matt: It was about a legal case. Yeah. Yes.

0:03:43 Jake: Uncivil war.

0:03:42 Thomas: Hey,

0:03:43 Matt: We'll be linking to it. So everybody can get a look for themselves to 2002 Jake Capra. But

0:03:44 Jake: Let me just, please let me just say also, I did not pick out the wardrobe for, uh, when you work for VH1, you

0:03:52 Thomas: You keep bragging. This this is my current exact style. So I'll stop. No, I'm just kidding.

0:03:56 Jake: Can, you pull it off much better. I'll just say like when you, when, when you work, when I work for like entertainment television, like VH one, you're allowed to get free clothes and all that stuff. You're not allowed to do that in news news, but I will say like, yeah, there's a bucket hat in one scene. There's a lot of, there'S a lot of, I

0:04:11 Matt: There certainly is.

0:04:10 Thomas: You're just Ed Helms from the office is all I'm seeing. It just looks exactly like, like that style.

0:04:14 Jake: Just did his podcast and we remarked on the fact that a lot of folks confuse us.

0:04:20 Thomas: I'm sure he asked about the same interview. Everybody's asking about the Leonard Skinner Uncivil war right now. It's just, it must get so

0:04:21 Matt: I can see that.

0:04:25 Jake: I, please watch it. Go watch it! My kids haven't seen that yet. My kids haven't see it.

0:04:29 Thomas: Tiresome to be answering question after question about Leonard Skinder done civil War, you know? So,

0:04:34 Matt: I mean, when we found out that Jake Tapp was coming on, I thought, well, great. We love musical litigation. That's one of our favorite subjects. And there's great 40 minutes on it.

0:04:39 Thomas: I mean,

0:04:41 Jake: I well, there was no, I don't think there's any litigation. I think the point The point was that Van Zandt's widow was quietly permitting the band to continue to tour because it paid bills.

0:04:48 Matt: She sued, right? Sure.

0:04:54 Jake: I mean, I don't begrudge her.

0:04:55 Thomas: If it did go to court, if it did, go to quarterback, your honor, my defense, he'd be like, case closed. You're right. Dismissed. I didn't think about it that way. Yeah.

0:05:04 Jake: I completely agree. One of the funniest scenes in this documentary was when I had a conversation with a gentleman who I think it's fair to say had had a little to drink. Uh and during a tailgate before a skinnered concert and he was talking about how he thought artemis pile who'd been kicked out of the band and billy powell who was still in the band uh also has passed away um how that they were brothers because he thought it was this day that he thought powell and pile were the same last name and I had to correct him that it was not actually the same but it's the kind of thing we included because you know this was it was fun it was supposed to be fun.

0:05:47 Thomas: Good times.

0:05:47 Matt: And it is. Well, of course, unfortunately, as much as I do want to talk about Leonard Skinner for the next hour.

0:05:52 Thomas: 20 more minutes on this max, and then we'll get to the current book.

0:05:56 Matt: But no, we do actually have a great book to talk about. We'll come back in a second and get going on Race Against Terror. So take a quick break and come back.

0:06:06 Matt: So Race Against Terror, I thought it's a great read. It really is just a page turner because it's like a Law & Order, international Law & order episode about really one of the only times that I think from what I'm aware of, the DOJ was able to do what they did here. And certainly in 2025, it hits a little different than I think it might have if you'd been telling this story last year, for example, when you're talking about DOJ's feats here. So what got you into this book? And if you just want to summarize kind of the story here you're telling.

0:06:33 Jake: I just, I randomly heard the story from one of the main characters, Dave Bittkower, who is one of The Heroes of the book. He's an assistant U.S. attorney. He's the one that gets the phone call in the summer of 2011 from the FBI saying that the Italians picked up a guy on a cruise ship in the Mediterranean during the Arab Spring who claims he's Spingool, the terrorist, you know, and they want to know if we've heard of him and they had had heard of him. And that just like sets off this investigation and sleuthing so that they can lock this guy up because otherwise the Italians are going to be forced to put him in a refugee camp from which he'll easily escape. And I love the fact that you thought it was law and order because when I heard the story, I thought this is a procedural.

0:07:13 Jake: And what, I mean, I think what people love about law and order and CSI and criminal minds and the rest is the the sleuthing. How do we catch the bad guy? And here we already have the bad guy. It's like the opposite of a whodunit. Here's the bad guy. Prove it. And they don't know, you know, anything about what he's done. They've heard his name from other terrorists in custody, but they don'T know anything about what they've done. So what he's done, so they have to go on this huge worldwide trip to prove a case against him. The

0:07:13 Matt: It is, yeah. Right. And the clock's

0:07:46 Jake: Clock is ticking.

0:07:47 Thomas: What has

0:07:46 Matt: Ticking, right? It's running down.

0:07:47 Thomas: He done as a stand in for the listener here who might not be familiar? What has either?

0:07:50 Jake: He says he confesses to, before he stopped, there's a point at which he stops cooperating, but he had just gotten out of a Libyan prison. Remember the Qaddafi and them are emptying the prisons and they just take him from the prison where he's been since 2005, so for almost six years. And they put him on this ship or they put them on a refugee boat, and then he gets picked up, and he confesses to killing Americans in Afghanistan and trying to blow up the U .S. embassy in Nigeria. And so they have to then prove a case, because otherwise, if they just take him, this is 2011, it's the Obama era, they can't just throw him in Gitmo and not worry about it. Obama wants to prove the case that you can criminally try these people in courts of law, which at the time was very, very controversial. It's not controversial in 2025, Trump is doing it. Trump is, he announced during the address to the joint session of Congress that the Pakistanis and the CIA have one of the conspirators behind the Abbey Gate bombing. And this will now be, if they successfully do it, the second prosecution of a foreign terrorist for killing service members on a foreign battlefield. So, but at the time, and there's no controversy about it now,

0:09:03 Jake: But it was hugely controversial because everybody, Democrats, Republicans, Chuck Schumer, Jim Webb. Everybody's like, do not bring terrorists to the United States. There was almost this fear that they had like supervillain powers, like it was, you know, like Lex Luthor or Thanos.

0:09:17 Matt: Like Magneto. Yeah, right, sure.

0:09:20 Thomas: Put them in the glass prison, you know, so that it's terrorism way.

0:09:23 Jake: Right, exactly. And like he's going to come and he's gonna, you Know, lightning's going going to come out of his fingers. He's going to be freed. It's not that, but if he's found not guilty, which was a very real possibility, it almost happened right around that time with a different guy named Galani, who's acquitted of 284 out of 285 charges. And also terrifying politicians saying like, oh my God.

0:09:48 Thomas: Boy, I hope that last one was not just like mail fraud or You know, that last one was a big one.

0:09:52 Matt: Lettering?

0:09:54 Jake: I think it was a savvy jury that was like, we can't let him them free. And that's my assumption because, I mean, but it was one of the 1998 embassy bombers, Galani. But evidence was thrown out because it was acquired through torture. And so there was risks to these trials. So anyway, these guys and gals set off in this investigation to prove this case against him. And the more I heard the story from Dave Bittkower, who I only know because his His son is friends with my son, and I had a paintball birthday party for my son in 2022. And so all the dads and moms were sitting around waiting for the kids to finish abusing each other in the woods. And he was just telling me this story because it's, you

0:09:55 Thomas: Jaywalking, you know. Wow.

0:10:39 Jake: Know, his go -to great story. It's a fantastic story. And I'm like, has anybody written about this? And he said, no. You know, they wrote about his conviction in court in 2017, and then he was sentenced in 2018. but nobody had written about the sleuthing, which, like, you brought up Law and Order, and that set me on this huge thing. But that's what I find so interesting. That's why I watch those shows, too.

0:10:59 Matt: Me too. Me too.

0:11:00 Thomas: You took off your glasses and went, wow, and started the CSI.

0:11:05 Matt: Well, and it's also unusual. I can't think of another story where US attorneys are the heroes because they really are in this story. FBI is obviously involved, but the US attorneys are really doing the legwork, the hard work here. And what was the clock? I know we were talking about it ticking, but there was a very short period of time the Italians were going to hold him, right?

0:11:23 Jake: Exactly. Well, I mean, as far as the, I means, months. They basically said months. And that turned into basically, like six or seven months. But the Italians did not want to hold him. They had him on a, you know, disruption charge, because once the the Italians on that cruise ship started talking to him and started interrogating him. And then it got violent, but they couldn't hold him for that much longer. And the Italians at this point in our history were not big fans of the United States of America and our global war on terror. A lot of Europe had turned away from it because of extraordinary rendition and enhanced enhanced interrogation. There was somebody that was basically extraordinarily renditioned off the streets of Italy by the CIA and the Italian military. And they were tried in absentia, like right around that time, a bunch of CIA officers were tried and absentia and sentenced to prison for kidnapping an Egyptian citizen from the streets of Italia. So the Italians, while they are our ally and all that, they were not happy about the United States and the war And they were like, take him or we're going to have to put him in a refugee camp and anybody can just like walk out of a refugee camp. They stay there because they have food and clothing and shelter. That's why they stay there. But it's basically it's not exactly Fort Knox

0:12:42 Jake: Or Supermax.

0:12:43 Matt: It's not detention. Sure. And just a few months, of course, is an extraordinary short time to have to put together a massive international terrorism investigation. Domestication. So that, wow.

0:12:50 Jake: The Americans don't even know what battle it is. He says he ambushed Americans with the Al-Qaeda platoon killing Americans, but they don't even know when. And Spengul, you know, this is an uneducated guy. He's from Niger ethnically, but born in Saudi Arabia. His parents are basically, I don't want to say slaves, but the next step up from slaves in Saudi Arabia, peasants. And, you Know, he's been educated in jihad as that's like, you you know, how we grew up, you know watching baseball, that's what he grew up like hearing stories about jihad in Afghanistan jihad in Chechnya, no, exactly, that is what it was like you know you laugh, but like I remember, this is not I am not comparing the two, so nobody everybody put down your computer, but one time when I was young I went on a tour of a religious school, I am NOT even going to say what religion it was but, because I don't But these students were basically cut off from all of Western civilization. There was no Letterman. There was No Phillies. There was NO Eagles. It was just religion. That was it. And they literally had cards of the cleric. And I'm not going to tell you, it doesn't matter, but whatever the religion was, but it probably isn't the one you're thinking, but it doesn'T matter. That's my point. It's like, yeah, when you were raised in a super religious world, the clerics are like baseball heroes. And

0:13:34 Thomas: Collecting rookie cards. Yeah, I get it. Well,

0:14:25 Jake: In this case, jihadists and martyrs.

0:14:28 Matt: And the timing on this, as you said, if he had been picked up on the battlefield in Afghanistan, we never would have heard of him. He would have been sent to Guantanamo in 2003, 2004. But because, as he said, it's the Obama era, we're not sending people to Guantанamo anymore. This to me is an example of what could have been. I don't know, do you see it that way of how we could have actually put these people through the federal judicial process instead of, I think, the national shame of sending them to GuantANAMO that I think that is going to be a stain on our legacy for a long time?

0:14:54 Jake: Yeah, I mean, and we should just remind people that who

0:14:57 Thomas: We've since made such bigger stains. You know it's like when you already have a stain on your shirt and then you just dump a gallon of wine on it and you can't see the first one. You don't even know it is there.

0:15:04 Jake: Cares about the coffee? Who cares about The Coffee Stain? You now have Barolo all over your shirt. Yeah I mean look, a lot of the decisions made by the Bush administration don't really stand up well to history. I think we can all understand that this was a government that was trying to protect the American people at a time that it was very unclear as to what to do. But look, I mean, even we're in Trump's second term and he has not reopened Gitmo. He has not brought back extraordinary rendition. He is not brought back, as far as we know, enhanced interrogation. I mean we are kind of in this hazy world of how we do these things that is neither Obama idealism nor Bush realism, for want of better terms. Like it is kind of of in this other area that is adhering to the rule of law. Trump did not take Jafar, this guy who conspired to do the Abbey Gate bombing. He did not ship him to Gitmo. He shipped him to Virginia, to the Eastern District of New York. I mean, Eastern District of Virginia, where they just fired or leaned on the U .S. attorney there, but that's

0:16:15 Jake: A whole other thing.

0:16:15 Matt: Over the Letitia James thing, yeah, sure.

0:16:16 Jake: But the assistant U.S. attorneys bringing the case are still on it, and he's going to be tried the way Spangool was, which is really interesting that it's kind of like Trump says a lot of things. And certainly when it comes to torture, he's pushing the envelope in the sense that he is now taking Obama's love of drones and killing terrorists from afar and applying it to what he calls narco -terrorists, the Tren de Aragua cartel. So it's not like he's, it's all the same, But on the on the terrorism front, it's it's pretty much we've kind of landed in a place where it is what it is, although Biden was still trying to get Gitmo detainees released.

0:16:56 Matt: Do have to, I mean, just a minor correction since you mentioned the Venezuelans. He is sending Venezuelan to Guantanamo Bay, but that's a completely different thing.

0:17:02 Jake: Yeah. You know, I'm sorry. I mean, yes, he is. He is sending he's sending people who have violated immigration law to to Gitmo. But I just mean, like, he's not using the the terrorism place.

0:17:03 Matt: But I know what you meant, but yeah, right. Yeah, no doubt.

0:17:14 Jake: Place. Yeah.

0:17:14 Matt: Right. But to me, this is very much a story about the victory of due process and our system working the way it's supposed to work as an an alternative to the mess of Guantanamo and the intractable endless military tribunals that at this point are, I think almost, I mean, I don't know how much you've been following them, but they seem like they can't be resolved at this point because the evidence is so bad.

0:17:34 Jake: I have been following him in the sense that, and in the criminal courts, as you know, from your life and from your work, and also I do talk about it in the book, the criminal courts are actually just much more effective. Even if you like the idea of military commissions or military tribunals, they're just not getting it done the way the criminal court courts are. It is interesting to think on earth too, where Spengul was picked up during the Biden, I'm sorry, during the Bush years, what might've happened to him. He might be a free man right now. I mean, I mean, like maybe there would maybe they wouldn't have thought he was that serious because they wouldn'T have taken the time to build the case against him. And he'd like confess to something, but there was no proof of it, no evidence of it. And so they just let him go and they send him back to Niger. And guess what? He becomes a mass murderer because he that's his life's goal. I mean who knows.

0:18:20 Matt: Sure, sure. And this really is a story of how effective the Department of Justice can be with all of this stuff when it wants to be.

0:18:27 Jake: Yeah, and also working well with the FBI, working well with the State Department, working. Well, yeah, absolutely.

0:18:28 Thomas: I know people

0:18:32 Matt: So total coordination.

0:18:32 Thomas: Need to buy the book, of course, but can you give us some sense? You've hinted at this kind of quick case that they had to prove. Can you give some sense of what went into that? Tracking down what battle, I think you said it was. Is there any other fun details from that?

0:18:45 Jake: Well, the yeah. Okay, so I'll give you I'll give you, I'll give you one, uh, detail that I love from this. So the very first thing they do is the Americans go to Italy to hear his confession. Again, this is a part where he spingles, you know, fresh out of prison, Libyan prison where he'd been tortured for years. And he's proud. He's proud of being a terrorist. Uh, and actually Dave Bittkower, uh who is the assistant U .S. attorney, one of the two, um, tells me this great story. So when he was at Yale, Bittkower. He wrote a story for the Yale Daily News where he got to interview Ron Darling. Ron Darling was a Yale baseball player who'd gone on and won a World Series with the New York Mets. But he wanted to ask him about a no -hitter that Ron Darling had pitched when he was a student, when he Was a Yale student. And Ron Darling remembered every single little detail about that day as a baseball player in college. And to Bittcower, that's what Spin Gould was. He was remembering every single detail about his time as a terrorist. He's so proud of it. He killed Americans. So exciting. And so he goes and he tells the story before an Italian courtroom and everything is taking forever because it's an Italian classroom. Courtroom. The Americans are getting, they're allowed to ask questions out of discourtesy, but you have a translator there. He speaks, Spingool only speaks two languages. At this point, he speaks Arabic and he speaks Hausa, which is an African language. And so the translator speaks Haosa and Spingoole speaks, the translator translates it into Italian for the judge. Then he has to translate it again back into English for the Americans there.

0:20:25 Thomas: Comedy ensues, I'm sure.

0:20:26 Jake: Everything And there at one point, Shreve, the other assistant U .S. attorney who's there, is like trying to find out what's the date of this ambush. And it comes out that it's around the time, the translator says, that Ramses V was coming to Afghanistan.

0:20:26 Thomas: Telephone.

0:20:47 Jake: And Bittkower and Shreave are like, oh, he's crazy. He's crazy, he thinks the pharaohs are still alive, this is not. So they just move on and keep asking him questions. And later on in the interrogation, Ramsey's the fifth comes up again. And Shreve's like, OK, I need to get some clarity here on this because this is their big fear. This is why they have to build the cases, because any competent, you know, second year law student would be able to get him off. He's crazy. What are you going to lock him up? He's nuts. He's just a crazy person. And he said, can you what do you mean Ramsey is the fifth? And then the interpreter and Spingle back and forth for a little bit. And then the interpreter says, I'm sorry, he didn't say Ramses. He said Rumsfeld, Rumsfield. And the five, the fifth was, yeah, the sixth was, oh, five for the five sides of the Pentagon.

0:21:29 Thomas: Slightly different. Yeah.

0:21:34 Jake: So then like, oh God, okay. Okay.

0:21:29 Matt: Different Pharaoh. Oh wow.

0:21:36 Jake: So then they figure out, okay, so it's around the time that Rumsfeld was visiting Afghanistan and Iraq and they, they, through process of elimination, they figure out what battle it was. Then they go to this guy, Dave Hodgson, who's this incredible character. Who's like the rain man of, of investigators in the army. His, his mind is just a steel trap. They think of date, they think of when you think of military records and in their mind, it's like all of the records that have ever been kept, uh, since the war War on Terror began, are in this room, like, at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, and, like you know, just this huge, vast complex, and nobody knows where anything is, but Dave does, and Dave remembers everything, and he's like, okay, and like, he's using his computer, and whatever, and he's figuring out where there might actually be physical evidence, there were, and then figuring out which battle it was, and the sleuthing, the book is all about the sleuthing, the figure, the The book is all about, and there's, I mean, all the characters, like I, if I wrote them in fiction, you would think it's a little much that

0:22:35 Jake: You have two Muslim women who work for the FBI. Like it's little much. It's a we get your, your, exactly.

0:22:40 Thomas: Calm down, DEI Jake Tapper. Okay. Okay. I

0:22:43 Jake: It's little, it's

0:22:43 Thomas: Don't even know if Trump would let you put that in a book these days. We'll see.

0:22:45 Jake: Politically correct that, that, uh, that one of the FBI women who's Muslim is named Muhammad. It's, Roshana Muhammad is their name, but it's all true. And it's this mosaic of America, of all these people.

0:22:57 Thomas: You had J .K. Rowling helping you naming the characters.

0:23:00 Jake: Exactly. And I'm trying to think, there was a, oh, and the fingerprint expert at Quantico is, I mean, it's, again, a real person. She is hair dyed red, nose ring, tats on her neck, like a character from Criminal Minds. Um but she was and in fact she wanted to be a veterinarian when she was growing up in uh in lancaster pennsylvania but she did some vet work and it was too much with the with the dead animal with the having to put dogs and cats to sleep so she's watching tv with her mom uh and and crossing jordan comes up and your mom's like you could do that she's like yeah I guess I could do that so she goes to uh west virginia university west virginian and becomes a fingerprint expert And so, I mean, just all these incredible stories of these people who protect us and investigate terrorism and crimes and try to make us safe. And they're all real people. And it's just really fun, like how, I will tell you that a fingerprint of Spin Ghoul is found, more than one. And I will tell you that there are testimonies from the service members. We go into the story of the battle itself, which is also incredible. And it's always an honor to be able to tell the stories of service members, although I will say it is the most difficult thing to do is to report and tell the story of a battle because it is like, it is Rashomon on steroids. It is 17 ,000 different perspectives of what happened and everybody's getting fired upon. And, and, but, you know, uh, it's a challenge, but it's always worth it at the end of, but it just, it was just a very fun story to tell as, I mean, even though obviously it's tragic, two Americans are killed, uh. And this is life or death stuff. These, it, it enjoy, it satisfying, not an enjoyable. It's satisfying to

0:24:43 Jake: Tell the the story.

0:24:43 Matt: It's a satisfying read too, because

0:24:44 Jake: Thanks.

0:24:44 Matt: No spoilers, but in the race against terror, terror does not win.

0:24:47 Jake: Terror loses. Yes, terror loses in this example, which is not to say it won't win next time, but yeah.

0:24:53 Matt: Sure. And I will say I've been reading you since way back in the Salon days, and I first knew you as a print journalist and it's great to see this kind of writing. I know many people don't think of you after many years in CNN as a writer, but I really did appreciate the way it's written. So

0:25:07 Jake: It's so much more fun, honestly, than the TV. The TV pays the bills, but writing is, I like it much more.

0:25:09 Matt: I'm with you. How do you make time to write? Because this is your second book that's come out this year. You

0:25:21 Jake: Well, the Biden book was a crash. The Biden book was, Alex Thompson, my co -author, and I started the day after election day, and we just went like crazy people, November, December, January, handed in the first draft January, spent February and half of March editing it and fact -checking it. So that was a crash.

0:25:40 Matt: Talked to a lot of people for that book, I assume.

0:25:42 Jake: There was what?

0:25:43 Matt: You talk to a lotta people for that, okay.

0:25:44 Jake: We talked to more than 200 people. Yeah. So, that was like a crash like nothing I've ever experienced. This book I've been working on since 2022. So I had a little bit more time. Everybody was was fairly cooperative. The defense attorneys, you know, one out of three ain't bad, but, but it was, it was satisfying. And just also just like you interview these people and they tell you these incredible stories. And one of them, just from the battle, there's this incredible guy who's one of the soldiers named Dave Simmons, and he's the medic. And of course, because you have to nickname the medic doc it's just it's a law doc simmons is there he's also a very devout christian so he he tends to the soldiers um spiritual needs as well in addition to their medical ones and he has I mean they're just these incredible stories uh this is also in the book he has a picture of jesus with the romans like uh laminated and put on his kit to remind him that he's there to tend to anybody who needs help, not just Americans, but Afghans, Al -Qaeda, anyone. But then after the ambush, which is a brutal ambush and just horrific, and three guys are very seriously wounded and have like one of them has this jaw blown off. I mean, just horrible stuff. Two Americans are killed. He rips off the laminated picture of Jesus and the Romans. It just changes him forever uh and that story when dave when when doc simmons told me the story it was just like it's cinematic it's beautiful it's tragic and it's an honor to tell that story and

0:27:24 Jake: Then conversely there's another story where renly so one of the two americans who are killed uh ray lozano who's an airman and uh jared dennis who's this native american kid from oklahoma And Jared Dennis's brother Renly, his little brother Renley, testifies when victim impact statements are allowed to be given before sentencing. And he has just read a book by a guy, a Frenchman, whose wife was killed during the Charlie, no, during the Bataclan attack in France. It's called You Cannot Have My Hate. It's based on a Facebook post he wrote like a day or two after his wife was killed, where he's basically saying, he's not unlike what Erica Kirk did for Charlie Kirk, which is not a forgiveness, but like, I'm not going to let hatred consume me. I'm going to give you that. It's a little bit more defiant than the grace that Erica Kirk showed, but the same kind of idea of, I am not going be consumed by anger. Anger. I'm going to let something else and more powerful come. And Renly reads the book and that inspires him in his victim impact statement where he basically tells Spingool, I'm not going to spend the rest of my life hating you.

0:27:23 Matt: And it's never been told. No,

0:28:43 Jake: I am going to think about my brother. And it's beautiful and moving. And again, all this is just, I feel like I'm just a vessel for this incredible story that happened and these incredible people who told me their stories. I don't, I am not praising myself when I tell you these stories are incredible. They're just, it was humbling to hear them. I I don't know that I would be like Remley Dennis if I were in his shoes.

0:28:58 Matt: They are. No it really is, it's a great read. My first question when I saw the summary of the book is, why is this coming out now? Because it doesn't seem like it's as relevant as anything's going on right now. But after reading it, not only is the story that needs to be told, but I think we do need to remember what DOJ is supposed to be doing, to be honest, and was

0:29:20 Jake: And look, I mean, the cases in the Eastern District of Virginia and President Trump just leaned on the very conservative U .S. attorney for that district who was doing everything Trump wanted him to do in terms of immigration arrests and deportations and all the rest. But despite spending five months looking for evidence against Letitia James, the New York attorney general, didn't find anything worth prosecuting her for and was honest about it and was and was whether he resigned before he could be fired or whether Trump fired him is a matter of, I guess, timing. But either way, he's no longer there. And what he was, I mean, one of the things his office was doing was prosecuting another terrorist who killed and robbed the world of American citizens and innocent Afghans. And it's a reminder of like, that's actually the job of these people is justice.

0:29:50 Matt: Here we are.

0:30:15 Jake: Justice well

0:30:14 Matt: Well, I think you're probably discounting the idea that the true terrorists or the attorney generals are going after the Trump Organization. It

0:30:23 Jake: They're going and they're well they well

0:30:23 Thomas: Well, we're going to you'll you'll be writing this book about the Antifa person that you're able to, you know, that they're able to track down through international criminal courts.

0:30:27 Matt: Needs

0:30:31 Jake: That's a whole other legal argument that you can shed some light on which is like are you like can you declare antifa a terrorist organization yeah like I mean it doesn't sit

0:30:38 Thomas: No, sorry, I'm not the lawyer, but no. No, I'm

0:30:41 Matt: To exist first, I think, I'm pretty

0:30:43 Jake: Well that'S the thing right it's it's not like an organization it's just a it's kind of just like a bunch of

0:30:47 Matt: It's a philosophy.

0:30:48 Thomas: A proud dues paying member, but yeah, I think I'm getting scammed. I actually don't know that my money's going toward the Antifa bombs that I wanted it to. So I don't, yeah, but

0:30:55 Jake: If it's coming through text then you know no, it's not real. Those alerts.

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0:32:27 Thomas: Talking about DOJ, but I feel like this era, this second Trump administration more than ever has, has shown me not a lawyer, just a, just a guy, how much was going on in government that requires competence, you know, that required like all these jobs that we just don't hear about, like most normal people don't hear about don't know about all this, you know, international funding we're giving, that's really helping a lot of people just all this kind of stuff. And it's interesting to look at the book, maybe in that light, like how many of these folks are still there now? I don't know, you know, what's going to be the the the postscript to your book?

0:32:56 Jake: Well, it is interesting you say that. A lot of them are not there now anymore because they just went on to get better paying jobs, the two assistant U.S. attorneys. But first of all, as you note, the book starts in 2011. That's when Spingool is picked up on this Italian cruise ship. His crimes were in 2003, 2004 during the Bush administration. He's prosecuted during the Trump administration, 2017, 2018. And there's a scene in the book where some of the career people in the FBI are trying to convince Attorney General Sessions that this can be done. This is a good way to go after terrorists. And Sessions doesn't want to hear it. He doesn't stop the prosecution of Spin Gould because that's already happening, but he doesn't want to have it happen at all. But that said, as I noted, Trump is doing the exact same thing right now with the prosecution of Jafar from ISIS -Khorasan. One of the best people, one of the highest ranking people in the Justice Department throughout all of this is a guy named George Toskos. George Tascus was just this completely apolitical, hard-ass prosecutor. And he just wanted to make sure that if these guys brought a case, it was airtight. Because something had happened during, God, I think it was during the Clinton years, where some violation of some rule meant that some terrorists were freed and sent to Australia. And he was just determined to never let that happen again uh but you know what it was um a foreign government had tortured the guys before the americans got them and because of that like all of the evidence was considered tainted uh anyway so toskus was this hard ass and just like he's exactly who you want with you in a battle like this he's just like let's make sure that everything's tight um and you know had an intimidating reputation but also had an incredible track record of getting convictions of bad guys um and uh he was basically I don't think he's in the government anymore because I think he was kind of like sidelined when the trump when the second term trump term came in he was physically sideligned until he I basically until he resigned, I think, like put in like some much lower level immigration thing. And it's just it's

0:35:37 Jake: A reminder of there is huge expertise of people who can actually make your administration look great if you get over your own petty sense of grievance and ridiculous demands of loyalty. I mean, George Toskis, if I were president, I'd make him attorney general. I mean he's I don't I've never even met him. He wouldn't talk to me for the book, even after he was fired or basically fired. He's just all business. But that's what we're losing with a government that is demanding personal loyalty and not just excellence and competence.

0:35:37 Matt: That's what's been happening. Yeah, no, DOJ has certainly taken a dive in the last year. There's no question about that. And I think that, as I said, this book is a great reminder of where it could be and where it should be. But I guess I wanted to ask about, just since we're talking about this that the moment we're in right now where it seems like the media is having a lot of trouble telling these stories not not the story we're talking about today but the story about DOJ and what's happening to it certainly you know your friend Jimmy Kimmel as we're talking about this is now I guess coming back but has had I was basically that the FCC tried to interfere with his his employment within hours or something he said on TV media generally it just feels like it's under a lot of pressure that's never been before that I've never seen like it What are your thoughts on this moment about what Journalist Candidate should be doing?

0:37:04 Jake: We should be doing our job regardless of what it might mean to the CEO of the next merger comes around. That's it. Period. Full stop. Like, I am well aware of the fact that, you know, there are mergers that could impact me, especially if there are people who want to ingratiate themselves with a government that doesn't like or respect journalism. But, you Know, I can't let that stop me. And I think I will say that I was kind of surprised at how few journalists said anything about what I thought was a fairly direct and egregious infringement on the First Amendment. On that yeah the brendan carr specifically going on a right-wing podcast uh and saying that disney and local channels need to that Disney needed to watch its behavior but also and I mean and also just keep in mind he said disney not abc because it's disney where the pressure point is because disney is the one trying to acquire fubo or the nfl or the NFL channel

0:37:55 Matt: The FCC interference? Yeah. Sure. Hmm. Right.

0:38:21 Thomas: I missed that detail. Yeah, that'S interesting.

0:38:22 Jake: It was just I mean, it's just he Brendan Carr is a lot of things. He's not stupid. And then specifically saying local TVs need to get this, you know, keep this garbage out of their communities or whatever the exact quote is. It's along those lines. Garbage was the word he used. And that is, you know, and within hours, Nextar, the largest owner of local TV affiliates and has a lot of ABC affiliates, put out a statement saying, you know, we're going to preempt Jimmy Kimmel. They didn't air Jimmy Kimmel's return. Same with Sinclair. Sinclaire has conservative owners. Nextar, its issue is it is trying to buy its largest competitor. And in order to have that deal go through, Nextar needs Brendan Carr and the FCC to sign off, not only on the merger, on the acquisition, but right now there's a rule saying you can only reach 39% of households. Households, and they need to have Brendan Carr and the FCC throw that rule out.

0:39:23 Jake: So there's a direct pressure point. And so I think that I was just surprised that there weren't more people saying something because, I mean, first they come for the comedians, right?

0:39:36 Matt: Sure. Sure.

0:39:37 Thomas: Well, I just think we're in just such a ridiculous double standard. I mean, obviously, we're coming from where we're coming from, but it just feels like the sensitivity toward the people who have no scruples versus the people who do feel, do have the capacity to be shamed. It feels like there's so much, it feels like everybody is like, well, there's these few people who have the capacity to be shammed. Let's shame them. And then when the shameless are in office, it just, what do we do? Like, how do we, how do we like make the point how to just globally, it's not on any one journalist, but like, it just feels like these attacks on free speech. These are things that if Obama had done, any one of these things ever would be so catastrophically scandalous that we'd never hear an end to it. And yet it feels like it's every day. And I just, how do we keep that perspective? How is the country supposed to keep all that in proper perspective?

0:40:27 Jake: It's tough because of all the information and misinformation silos people are in, but I do think it's important for people in journalism to not have double standards. Like for instance, in 2009, this is is not the same thing. And I'm not saying it's the same thing as what Brendan Carr did. But in 2009, the Obama White House started labeling Fox News as not a legitimate news organization. Now, we all might have our opinions about Fox News, but I had questioned Robert Gibbs, then the White House press secretary, why is it appropriate for a White House to be saying this? Because I didn't, I think it's dangerous when the government starts deciding what's appropriate, what's not appropriate. What's legitimate, what'S not legitimate. The House Judiciary Committee just exposed or just revealed, I should say, a letter from Alphabet, which owns YouTube and Google, showing that during the Biden years, they pushed YouTube and google to remove information, free speech that didn't that hadn't violated Google's or YouTube's terms of service. Us, but the Biden's administration didn't like it. And we're, I'll be covering that on my show today because it's just, you, it all, it needs to be called out everywhere because if you don't call it out, uh, then you

0:41:45 Jake: Get, I,

0:41:44 Thomas: What was that information? I guess you're saying you're going to cover it.

0:41:48 Jake: I have, I honestly have to dive into it, but I think an example might be, for example, like the lab leak theory, which was a theory and has not proven to be false or crazy, but there was, I think, concern, um, that, uh. Well, you know what? I'm talking out of my ass right now. So let me, let me do the actual research because I have a, I'm

0:42:06 Thomas: I guess I just apologies, but I just really resent. It feels like we do this thing talking about, you know, investigations and raises against time. It feels like every time Trump does something that's an 11, there's this forensic historian attempt to go find something on the left from any year that might slightly.

0:42:20 Jake: Not saying it's just, yeah, I're not

0:42:22 Thomas: It's just that's the exact kind of perspective I feel like we're losing, don't you?

0:42:23 Jake: Saying it's this. No, I, I totally

0:42:27 Thomas: Go ahead.

0:42:27 Jake: Agree with you that it's not the same thing. A hundred percent. And I'll have to see what's going on here in terms of what they censored, but I don't think it was Google or YouTube making fun of Joe Biden, right? Or Google or YouTube allowing people to talk with insufficient sensitivity about a progressive or liberal upon who tragedy had befallen them. I agree. It's not the same thing. My only point is that journalists need to be aware of these infringements, period, full stop, cover them in perspective and with the right context. That's all I'm saying. You're asking me what should we do. I'm only giving my perspective of what I can do. But I don't think it's the same thing at all, because, first of all, I saw conservative media twisting what Jimmy Kimmel said, acting as if he had said he had declared that the horrific idiot shooter, whatever his motivations were, and they seem to have been left leaning motivations, but, you know, on one on trans issues because of his lover, I guess. I mean, you know, this is still an active investigation, but that said, I mean it does seem to be a left -leaning, the motivations seem to be left - leaning, I guess. That said, Jimmy Kimmel did not say this person was a right -winker and, you know, and it's, everything's being twisted. His construct was maybe, I think he admitted in a statement,

0:43:30 Thomas: On one particular issue, possibly. Yeah, I'd like had a false assumption, possibly, but yeah, it was.

0:44:03 Jake: Like and I mean he spoke much more effusively on this than I can, but it's basically like what he, I think he'd rephrase it differently today. That said, like there was just so much lying about what he had said, you know, and like, as, and, like the coverage, like, oh, Jimmy Kimmel attacked Charlie Kirk. No, he did not attack Charlie Kirk at all. And not even a little bit like, so, um, I'm not even remotely comparing the two. I'm just saying free speech is an issue that, you Know, we need to, we needs to guard against. Let me put it that way.

0:44:34 Jake: But I appreciate what you're, I do. I totally appreciate what your saying. And the, and the, And the fake and the inappropriate whataboutism that happens all the time, all the time. I agree. But that doesn't mean that the media doesn't, you know, I'm just saying media can't have double standards. That's it, which I think you would agree.

0:44:35 Thomas: But, yeah, I don't know how we get. Yeah, go ahead. But yeah, sure. But I think I think how do you create the proper standard is what I guess what I'm asking. I just feel like we failed to do that. I feel like once once we tried to shame Trump, you know, for the first thousand times, he didn't flinch. It feels like everyone's just writing. I mean, what did he do? You know, not to not to open the sore subject of the Biden book, but in the past 48 hours, the speeches he's given and the things Trump has done have done. I mean, compare that to Biden's, you know, which admittedly from your book, definitely his failing faculties in his old age. I just feel like we don't even try to hold Trump accountable to these awful gaffes. Or if we do, it just has no effect. And then because it has no affect, that gets no energy. And then we're just all on the next whatever lies about Jimmy Kimmel and Charlie Kirk. And that receives all this focus. How do we how do we try to take some control of this giant focus machine that seems to just inappropriately all go toward one bullshit and leave a bunch of other stuff out? You

0:46:00 Thomas: Know, well,

0:46:00 Jake: Well, I mean, OK, so I obviously, as a journalist, have a different imperative than you, right? You're you have opinions and advocacy that you want to do. And, and that's not my job per se, other than, uh, yeah, yeah.

0:46:14 Thomas: No, but that but proper context was my question. Like, don't you think don't think that it's acknowledged? I'm not saying advocacy, but proper contacts. I think how who decides what that is.

0:46:23 Jake: I don't think that you're, I don'T think, I DON'T, I Don'T, well, I mean, each individual news anchor or editor decides, uh. What it is. I, you know, I, I guess my question is like, what, how do you define success in what you're trying to do in terms of, I Mean, president Trump's approval ratings are, are bad and And he's losing ground with all the constituencies that he made up ground with and won the 2024 election. I mean, I do think that people are seeing what he's saying.

0:46:57 Jake: You know, the whole Biden thing to me is a conversation I'm totally willing to have, but I think it's a very different set of circumstances. I mean Joe Biden was, according to his own cabinet secretaries that we spoke to for the the book, was not capable of getting that 3 a .m. phone call. I mean, and Kamala Harris's book basically says a lot of what Alex Thompson, my co-author, and I wrote in the Biden book, Original Sin, which is he couldn't do the job if he got tired. And guess what? People get tired. So, but that said, I don't disagree with the idea that President Trump says a Lot of, I mean, however people want to describe it, norm -busting, bold, wild, crazy, I mean pick your adjective, but like what he said at the UN in terms of, I guess he was riffing because the teleprompter went down and was saying a lot of stuff that no American president has ever said, and certainly not in keeping with the notion of what united nations are supposed to stand for. But I mean, I think in my world, all I can do is just report on what he's doing and what he's not doing and the opposition and all the rest.

0:47:55 Thomas: Your countries are all going.

0:47:59 Matt: Or I should have said.

0:48:16 Jake: And I don't know. I mean the country's in a weird place right now because obviously so much of what President Trump does is so different from what any other US president has done. And some people love it and some people hate it. And I think there are a lot of people, not a lot of people. I think There are some people in the middle that don't mind all of it, but don't care for the manner in which he does it. Like, for instance, I think you could probably agree that there's disruption that should happen in Washington, D .C. Right. Whether it's health experts or defense contractors or the rest. And I Think some people see that and they think, I like that. I mean, I want there to be disruption. But what he's disrupting, you know, there's a difference between disrupting how much corn syrup is in processed foods and whether or not kids should be given a mump shot.

0:49:16 Matt: Yeah. Just disruption and destruction, I think.

0:49:18 Thomas: I mean, the thing you did, the Tylenol thing, I mean we're just – it just feels like we're bending over backwards to normalize them in a way. Let me give you one distinct example because I do actually really respect – I watched a lot of your interviews around the book release, the Biden book release just kind of prepping for this. And I, I do respect the fact that you went to all these, uh, a lot of right -wing media essentially, and had them do a victory lap on the, like, we knew Biden was old. We knew Biden Was old. And I do, there's, there'S a sense in which I really respect the integrity of that, but then I just, just something stuck out to me where, uh. I just happened to watch your interview, uh with, um, Bari Weiss on her show. And I just remember she asked you, you know, where were the people who would tell Joe Biden? No. Where are the people in the White House who would do this? And you agreed. You know, it's like a scandal. I can't believe nobody would tell you about it. No. And I juste find myself thinking that's not a position that exists in the white house today. In

0:50:16 Thomas: The four years before before Biden, the four year after, you might as well say, where's the person who could do a 360 Tom Hawk jam in the the white house it's just a position that doesn't exist and so I I guess my problem is I I just want to know like do you I think do you lose the big picture by focusing on the minutiae and and the effect of like doing the book you did and doing the media tour you did was to go go on these right wing shows go on like the megan kelly the everything and and and really reinforce their worldview by saying yeah everything you've been saying about us liars is right or us media who failed is right about Biden. And then you're on your merry way. And it's like, that feels like globally, it has a huge impact in the wrong direction. I just wonder, like, do you, how do you think of that in terms of not just the isolated incident, but like the broader effect that that's having on the, on the ecosystem?

0:50:24 Jake: It's a great question. So first of all, let me just say the point that Donald Trump has no one around him to push back is one that I've made on my show on CNN many, many, many times. And it is a big point of deviation from his first term where he did have people like that. Conservatives like.

0:51:29 Thomas: Yeah. For, for a little while. Yeah.

0:51:31 Jake: Well, no, I think I think pretty. I mean, up until the very end where Mark Esper resigned as secretary of defense. I mean, there were people, the people resigned from his administration on January 6th. I mean like, you know, a lot of those same people are, you know, back in his good graces again, but still. But to your, but so, I mean I, I don't lose sight of that and I think like every day I have a two hour show and we're covering President Trump and you know what he's doing and, and the rest. And you know when I say we're going to be covering the alphabet thing. That's one block, but I'm sure most of the show will be about what President Trump is doing because that's today and he's doing it right now, as opposed to what happened during the last term.

0:52:18 Jake: I don't know that I agree with your characterization of what I admitted during the Bari Weiss or Megyn Kelly interview. I tried to be honest about the fact that I think that the media missed the story. Now, I do also think that we missed the story because journalists are only as good as our sources, and our sources were either lying to us or uninformed. I mean, it's come out through some of the hearings that are taking place behind closed doors that some of the people from the communications office who were attesting to Joe Biden's verbal alacrity had seen him once in the previous two years. I'm exaggerating, but that kind kind of thing.

0:52:59 Jake: I would say that I think that it was a huge scandal. And I think the fault of the scandal of Joe Biden running for reelection and hiding his deterioration from the public, which is, you know, Kamala Harris called it reckless, the decision to run for re-election. And if you read her book, which I just did, there is a lot in there about how she didn't think he was up for Okay.

0:53:25 Thomas: I'll when the book first came out, like I was pretty skeptical of what was going on. And, and, and I, I admit, I shared a lot of like the common, like left kind of a bit of bitterness for, for what you're doing. When I, when I delve more into it and, and watch these interviews, you persuaded me on like on that. Again, this is why I say looking at an isolated case, like that was a scandal. And I agree.

0:53:45 Thomas: It's really, well, it's no, no, sorry. I want to clarify. That's actually not what I'm saying. I think that you're, I actually don't have any, like, gripes with, you know, you guys missing the story or the media missing the story, because I agree with you that if people aren't talking, they're not talking. Like, what are you going to do to uncover somebody's health? You know, like we can't, you can't. I think you said in an interview, it's not like you can, you don't Have subpoena power. You can't go talk to the doctors. I don't, it is not that. It is that the media tour that you did with these right wingers, what it did was it took their worldview of what, in my opinion, and I think pretty objectively speaking, involves a lot of lying and enabled them to be like, we were right. We were right when really they're right by coincidence. They're right. They're not right. I mean, you could pick out a few ways that maybe they picked out some Joe Biden being old things that maybe you missed, but for the most part, they were going to find something disqualifying about Joe Biden. And they found 11 other things that they weren't right about or whatever, you know, and like like coming in and really validating that one thing and it really reinforced that kind of worldview of theirs. And I just, that's why I'm asking like broadly, I feel like that has an effect that is not good and not like equal and not, you know what I mean? Like don't, do you see anything to that critique?

0:53:45 Jake: And what about what's going on now? Right. No, I agree. But here's... Okay.

0:55:01 Jake: I do. I see a lot to that critique. I mean, I had a decision to make. Alex and I had to make a decision. To make, which is, were we going to stick with, you know, fresh air and NPR and, you know, reasonable intellectual interviews that appeal to the NPR set?

0:55:31 Jake: Or were we gonna go more in the belly of the beast? I don't know that I would consider Bari Weiss and Megyn Kelly to be the same. I think they're quite different. But that said, I knew that they were both going to have tough questions.

0:55:46 Jake: What I said was that the skepticism of Joe Biden's wherewithal, we discovered in our reporting, was the people who were skeptical way back when, 2019, 2020, were right to be skeptical. That's what our reporting showed. And because our reporting show that his diminishment probably started around 2015.

0:56:14 Jake: And I don't like admitting, you know, when somebody else was right about something, and I was wrong about it, it's not pleasurable. But it is what adults do. And it iswhat people do when they're just trying to be honest and forthright. The argument that not everybody I was talking to is similarly trying to be honest and forthright, I accept that that is a critique and that that puts me at a disadvantage in these arguments or in these appearances. Appearances, but I don't know what to do about that. The other side of the argument is that there were critics on the left and right, but let's just do right since that's what you're focused on. Like Fox News, I was content for them every day for every hour for weeks about how I was Joe Biden's chief enabler and I helped cover it up and all this stuff. Like just complete nonsense, Just complete and utter nonsense.

0:57:25 Jake: But I would say I would reach out to some of these people or to Fox in general or the publisher would and say, have us on. Let us discuss this. You want to be saying all these things about me. And they pretty much spared Alex, but only because he's 20 years younger. Uh well

0:57:46 Thomas: I was going to say, why is that by the way? It does really seem like he took all the heat. I watch interviews where he's just sitting there. He's just, who knows knows what he's doing playing a video game I don't know and you're you're just taking on absolutely getting rained on

0:57:50 Jake: I told him I I said I said to him uh you know this you know we were the number one uh non -fiction book in america for two weeks and then we were on the bestseller list for seven I'm like and you got no shit at all so just enjoy it because it just doesn't happen every time

0:58:10 Thomas: What a what a lucky job there you know that's a that's nice

0:58:14 Jake: Yeah in retrospect the decision to split it 50 50 uh you should reconsider I should have I should of at hazard pay. But I will say like, uh, the fact that Fox people would attack me and not have me on, uh I find more problematic than going on the shows of other people who, uh were doing what you describe in your view, uh but were willing to have me off. And I mean, so I guess that's my context. I hear what you're saying, but I prefer the tough questions to my face where I I at least get to respond to it instead of the lies that were told about me on Fox that

0:58:15 Matt: Jay, I... Sure.

0:58:54 Jake: Were it's fine. Again, as a First Amendment supporter, you know, I'm not calling for any action or whatever, but like it's cowardly to do that and not be willing to have me on. I mean, like I'm a I'm an ice guy. I'm going to go on their channel and and and fight fire with fire. I would stick to the facts. But that said, like that, that's where I'm coming from. So I don't begrudge Megan or Barry or any of the other conservatives who are willing to have me on because they were willing to do so. And I appreciate that, even if even with the risk that you note that it does create a situation, an unfair situation. One of the things was weird was when, and I'm not going to go into who, but you go on a conservative show or somebody who's right -leaning or whatever, and they take their pound of flesh, but it's respectful enough and this and that. And then you say, thank you. And then they have like three

0:59:07 Thomas: Next guest

0:59:55 Jake: Of the worst right -wing actors in the world to comment on your interview.

0:59:56 Thomas: On yeah just totally shit all over you yeah

1:00:03 Jake: Yeah, and it's just like, whoa, that's crazy. It's like, you know, and here's the kid who in seventh grade Jake gave a wedgie to. You know, it's like why are you giving wedgie kid a voice?

1:00:06 Thomas: Here's

1:00:18 Matt: Jake, I, I.

1:00:19 Thomas: This leonard skinner documentary from 2009 doesn't it?

1:00:21 Jake: Right, exactly.

1:00:23 Matt: I got to say, unlike I think a lot of your Blue Sky followers, I did read Original Sin, the Biden book we're talking about. And I would urge anybody who has criticism for the book to read it. That's usually a good place to start when you're going to criticize a book. And not only did I read it, but you read it to me, which it was a very enjoyable experience.

1:00:38 Jake: You did the audio.

1:00:39 Matt: I'm an audio guy. And

1:00:40 Jake: I am too. That's a – I really like it. Yeah.

1:00:42 Thomas: It's the best.

1:00:43 Matt: I love to play video games and listen to books. And Jake Tamper telling me this story, it was it was good way to spend some time. And, uh, I gotta say just because I had the kind of doubts that Thomas is talking about. And I still have some doubts, I'll be honest, but it's a story that needs to be told. And we're not Biden defenders on this show necessarily.

1:00:58 Thomas: Well, not anymore. I think it's I think it's been told. Don't write another one on that.

1:01:02 Jake: I'm good. But I will say, like, if if people

1:01:02 Matt: But for history, though, it needed to be taught.

1:01:05 Jake: Wonder how if there are blue sky listeners, blue sky users or listeners of this podcast or others like who are upset because I should be focusing on Trump. First of all, I do two hours a day, every day focused on Trump, 100 percent. But beyond beyond that, like how do you think we got Trump as a nation? Like the decision, the original sin in the in the title of the book is his decision to run for reelection.

1:01:17 Matt: You do, no doubt. CNN does too. Exactly.

1:01:33 Jake: When, when even Kamala Harris says in her new book, he, he was not up to the task. He was not to it. Uh, and if you read between the lines of, well,

1:01:41 Thomas: Do you think Trump's up to the task? Like in that general sense that you're able to say Biden was not up to the task. Do You think he's up to The task?

1:01:49 Jake: What she, let me just use her definition as she defines it, which is being able to campaign vigorously in 2024.

1:01:57 Jake: Uh, And do I think president Trump is capable to get up at three in the morning? If there's a, one of those phone calls, uh, I haven't seen any evidence that he isn't. Do I look at him and see this is a 79 year old man and I don't know if we should be having 79 year olds as president of the United States? It's a job that I'm 56. I'm too old for it. You know, I think that's a real question. I think the gerontocracy aspect of this, if you, I know you want to talk about the Trump aspect of it, but the geronotocracy, it's, but it's I mean, like you said, my representative in Congress, a legendary civil rights activist, delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton is 88 years old. She can't walk without help. She's not allowed to drive anymore because of a car accident. Like there are a lot of people in D.C., a lot of politicians who are starting to say publicly, she should not be running for reelection. She is running for re-election. And like, I think the gerontocracy part of this,

1:02:28 Thomas: I know. This is fine, too. Yeah. It's it's amazing being like, Jake, you're 20 years too young to even think about running for president. Yeah.

1:03:02 Jake: It's a, as you know, it's an interesting part it's just a chapter in the book just about this in general. And I think it's real. I mean, modern medicine is wonderful in a lot of ways, but like keeping people in positions of power well past the time that they are able to do the job, I think is a real question. Not that we should like be taking away their meds, but you see what I'm saying.

1:03:27 Matt: We have a lot of critiques of the Democratic Party on this show. And that is one of the biggest ones to me. Is that and

1:03:31 Thomas: Well, I think incumbency advantage is a huge one with that. Like it's just the people who are already in office have such an easier time of winning that, that that's going to naturally enable these people to be in there forever until they're 90, you know, or whatever, a hundred.

1:03:45 Jake: And well, especially when you have in Congress, when you have a system that rewards seniority, you know, so, but beyond that, but to just to turn to the Trump of it, do I think he's capable of doing the job? I think that he is pushing the limits of what is normal and acceptable in this country and has been for a long time. And whether it's his FCC chair going after speech and speakers he doesn't like in a very direct way or firing a conservative and by all evidence, competent US attorney because he's not willing to bring charges against political opponents because it doesn't exist. And as you guys know, there's not one prosecutor in America who doesn't love to take down a politician. So I got to believe that evidence doesn't

1:03:49 Matt: You yeah sure

1:04:34 Jake: Exist. They love taking down politicians. And they are more willing to go after politicians with weak evidence than any other group other than poor people. So that's in terms of prosecutors, just to make a gross generalization. So, I mean, I don't I guess it depends on like, Like, is he capable of doing the job?

1:04:56 Jake: I mean, I think you're changing the definition of capable. Like we're talking about something. Now we're Talking about something else, how he's doing the job.

1:05:02 Thomas: That's, that, and that's really, that's really interesting. Cause when does it, when is it okay? I'm just really interested in, And because obviously I am not, as you know, nowhere in the realm of what you're doing. I'm really interested in how you think about like, I really actually want to know how you think about these things. I'm very curious, like what, what, when does something become something that gets labeled as like, well, this is like a political argument. So we have to kind of, for lack of a better term, both sides it or, or, you know. Kind of be objective about this thing.

1:05:29 Jake: Looks like the government shutdown, the government shutdown. Okay. That's a perfect example of like, now everybody's in reverse and you can find quotes of Schumer saying you should never have a government shutdown when he's probably going to not provide the votes. So there will be a government shut down and votes of the Republicans saying the exact opposite. We're now just like in the partisan hypocrisy shuffle. It happens every time there's a president. I mean, it just happens all the time. I think that that I think when there is normal politics afoot, then I cover it as when it is normal policies afoot. And I think there are extraordinary things going on. We cover that. And then when there's boundaries being pushed, like, for instance, using the Air Force to fire on boats that the White House says are narco terrorists, then we cover it that way. But it's not for me to say, I'm not comfortable with X, Y, Z. I cover the issue. I'll note this is extraordinary. But then I'll have on a former JAG lawyer to talk about it who knows a lot more about it and whose opinion means a lot lot more than mine. So I just think that it's just, there is a world of nuance in how I cover these things. And it is different from how the competitors on Fox and MSNBC are covering them. And all I can do is the best job that I can and as long as I still have a show. But if everything is an emergency, then nothing's an emergency. And I think that there's a value in pointing out the extraordinary nature of what the FCC just tried to do with Jimmy Kimmel.

1:07:13 Jake: And when it comes to the language that President Trump uses that might be very offensive to some people, we quote it and people on my show discuss it and debate it. But I don't think I am here to render a political opinion.

1:07:26 Thomas: No, I agree. So the question actually is, is how do you decide what turns into that? Because when it comes to Biden's age, I think and correct me if I'm wrong, like I think you call that a scandal. I mean, you call the what happened there a scandal and I'm not trying to get at just

1:07:40 Jake: With the knowledge I have now. Yeah, with the knowledge, yeah.

1:07:42 Thomas: Yeah. And I promise I'm Not trying to just put a microscope on like your word choices about certain things. But like when when when you talk about someone being fit, I feel like the age thing and the the memory thing that seems to be something that you can safely label uh a non -political thing that you can critique and say but when it comes to donald trump who probably doesn't even know what's in the constitution just normally like it's like that's that then it becomes more like an opinion on his character and his and like it functionally might do the same thing or we can think of a better example it functionALLY might make someone unfit but because it's cast in a kind of a a different political lens and it becomes a thing that we have to kind of, you know, like give credence to both sides. We have to be way more careful in how we're phrasing it. And I guess, I guess I just wonder, like, do you think like ultimately where is this going? Are we, it just feels like we're more and more losing that perspective. And do you see this ever getting, this problem ever getting better? Do you see the silo problem? Where do you See it going in 10 years. You know, what do you, what are you thinking?

1:07:42 Matt: Of course

1:07:47 Jake: It's fine. I really am worried about the silo problem. I don't know that there's a remedy for it. It really concerns me because I think one of the problems with it is that, and I'm certainly not talking, I don't want to, I'm not talking about everybody. Buddy. I'm not talking about, look, this country was founded on ideological media. Like one of my favorite journalists of legendary time was a guy named Benjamin Franklin Bache, B -A -C -H -E. If you don't know him, Google him. He ran the Philadelphia Aurora. He was one of the fiercest critics of George Washington. It was a very ideological newspaper.

1:09:27 Jake: I am not, he was thrown in prison and died in prison. Very good by John Adams.

1:09:26 Matt: Prosecuted for sedition right at some point yeah no

1:09:32 Thomas: Well done, Matt. I have no idea who this is.

1:09:34 Jake: Very few people do, very few journalists do, too. But John Adams passed the Alien and Sedition Act, and one of them that expired, but one of them allowed him to jail journalists that were reporting things that he declared a national security emergency, and he died in prison of, I think, smallpox. And he is great. I could talk for an hour on him, but I won't do that to your listeners. But I'm not slagging on ideological Media is my point. But I do think that there are, whether it's the algorithms from our tech bro friends, of which I have none, or ideological media that reaffirms our worldview, not as a supplement to, quote unquote, legacy media straight news, but as a replacement. And I say this is somebody with family members who, with the exception of my show, only watch MSNBC because they do not want to see Republicans interviewed and family members that get their information entirely from conservative media and will reach out to my wife about something that I said that I, of course, didn't actually say. And so I see it happening with my families in a way that is different than it was even five years ago. And it really concerns me in this era of political violence because it allows people to paint those with whom we disagree as evil and it allows People to justify horrific acts or at the very least show no humanity when those acts occur. Her. So it really, really worries me beyond the commercial impact of it, which is in a world where people don't want straight news, what happens to the New York Times and the CNN. I mean, beyond that.

1:11:37 Jake: So I really worry. And again, I'm not talking about you guys. I'm not talking but there

1:11:42 Thomas: I fully agree with this. I'm just curious your thoughts on it. Yeah, it

1:11:43 Matt: Is absolutely yeah

1:11:44 Jake: Is, you know, when I did the Biden book, one of the things that was really interesting is, uh, talking to conservative friends who had no idea how mad liberals were and talking to liberal friends who Had no idea how mad conservatives were.

1:11:56 Thomas: Has got to be a Guinness record for the most just unfun press tour. Probably. I don't know. I know maybe, maybe you relish it, but just like both sides just just really given it to you.

1:12:08 Jake: I will say that, uh. If it weren't for the sales being on the bestseller list and the fact that that it got great reviews, this, it was my seventh book and it got better reviews than anything I've ever written. Just like good reviews, times post LA, you know, whatever. But the personal attacks were, they're never fun. Personal attacks are never fun, and it's just, and obviously you can't respond. Anytime I post anything on Blue Sky, all the same, like, when are you going to write a book? You know, it's just like I covered Trump every day for two hours and I got to believe that I'm not on their Christmas card list. So like I like I don't know what more I can do. I did write a book about by the way, if somebody else had written it, I wouldn't have written mine. I wrote it because I wanted to know what the hell just happened.

1:13:05 Matt: That that was very much my impression yeah I

1:13:05 Thomas: Well, and the people talk to you after the election, right? I mean, it wasn't a lot of a lot of the left, I will say, had this critique that you Oh, well, you why didn't you tell everybody, you know, if you're a reporter sitting on this knowledge, and it's like, yeah, I do. I do think that was that wasn't there's a lot of unfair attacks on you about that book. And I might mind, which I think is a fair attack is this just the legitimization of some of these sources of these worldviews in terms of the press tour is my only point but but yeah like it that must have been frustrating yeah

1:13:35 Jake: Well, that was crazy. John Stewart did that, which I thought was so super weird because, um, uh, I didn't, I didn't obviously, I don't know, like anybody who knows me or Alex knows that we are very competitive journalists and anything we could break the moment we wanted to break it, we would break it. And like the idea we were sitting on anything is crazy. Um, and just not true, but beyond the critique of don't focus on this because Trump is president. I mean, the first pushback is that's why Trump is president. Like I think if Biden did not run for reelection, I think there's an argument to be made that a Democratic primary system where Kamala Harris or whoever was able to go through the rigors of a campaign and be tested and ultimately emerge victorious, whoever it was, would have had a better chance against Trump than Kamala Harrison with 107 days. Although I will say, you know, people do disagree with that. Republicans.

1:13:38 Thomas: Not cool I I think there's a percentage chance that Biden actually could have done better than Harris I'm not even joking like I just don't we're in such a weird world Jake I I the

1:14:41 Jake: I don't think so. I don'T. You need to go back and reread the chapters that talk about where his polling was, like what David Plouffe, David Plough comes to the campus.

1:14:51 Thomas: That's fair that's I guess we didn't see a lot of it it was a a lot of it was behind.

1:14:54 Jake: They were going to lose Virginia, New Mexico and Minnesota and New Hampshire, like it was going to be a bloodbath in terms of like the house races. And I mean, that's why Biden dropped out because they were, because house members and Senate senators were like, we're good. We're all going to lose our jobs and you're going to be known for that. Um, but, but beyond that, uh, this whole idea of like, I should only be focusing on Trump, which I do focus on Trump quite a bit. Um. There's this like revisionist history. Like I wrote the book like in 2024 and I chased Biden out of the race and like I I made him bad at the debate and I caused all this it's like this is I get blamed and it's just it's a very uh convenient projection but it's but it'S uh it's so not true like if people want to take issue with me writing the book great I support your first amendment right say whatever you want to say but like the reason that I wrote that book is because Joe Biden had that disastrous debate and they were hiding stuff from the public and everybody saw it and he had to drop out and it was unprecedented. And, and like that, that's why I wrote the book. Cause I was like, what the, what just happened? You know?

1:16:12 Matt: You were there closer than anybody to the debate you were right in the middle of it

1:16:15 Jake: That was something.

1:16:15 Thomas: I think we'll get hate from our audience, but you did convince me on this. Like you really did. I, I, the book, it's horrifying. It really is. And I don't blame you at all. I don't fault you at all for writing that. I mean, it is crazy. It's just absolutely insane.

1:16:20 Matt: History needs to know. It needs to be written.

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1:18:03 Jake: Any case, I understand why people are upset because they see the, you know, what's going on with ice raids and, and, uh, and the, uh you know and, and the, the courts being, um, or not the courts, but the justice department being politicized. Uh, and it's all, yeah. I mean, I'm reacting it to like any American who believes in our constitutional values and thinks that we should be reward. And again, I'm like, and I'm not even coming at it like from, I don't have a policy position on immigration.

1:18:33 Jake: And, uh, my general view is that countries are allowed to have borders and people can vote for what they want in terms of immigration and borders. And we cover the shocking stories, but also generally speaking, violent gang members who are not in this country illegally should be deported. I don't have a problem saying that. That said, I'm watching it all and reporting on it all happening the same way everybody else is.

1:19:00 Matt: But if we start a war with Venezuela so that we can use the Alien Enemies Act to actually just throw out Venezuelans at any time, I'm sure you'll have something to say about that too.

1:19:07 Jake: Well, I am not a big fan of the Alien and Seditions Act. So if those get brought back, I guess the Alien Act is the only one that was kept, right? Yeah.

1:19:11 Matt: As established. Yeah, sure, sure. Alien enemies. Yeah. The Alien

1:19:18 Jake: I think Adams passed four laws and one of them still stands. That's the one that they're using.

1:19:18 Matt: Friends Act disappeared, I think. Yeah and

1:19:26 Thomas: Gotta impeach that fucker. God damn it.

1:19:28 Jake: He was an awful president. Honestly, he was horrible. He does not get enough bad run, John Adams. He was awful. He was a truly horrible president.

1:19:36 Matt: There was no Jake Tapper who wrote that book. They didn't have an in 1800's Jake Tafford tell the story of Adam's presence

1:19:42 Thomas: Paul Giamatti did.

1:19:42 Jake: Benjamin Franklin Franklin Bayes was trying, and then they threw him in prison. They broke the XYZ affair. Everybody get home. Google XYZ Affair.

1:19:50 Thomas: X, Y, Z. Wow. I hope it's a Rick roll. I'm going to do it. But if it's the Rick roll, I'm gonna I'm to be happy. That would

1:19:52 Matt: That's a big one

1:19:55 Jake: How great would that be if I had done that?

1:19:58 Thomas: Be pretty great. That'd be amazing.

1:20:00 Matt: Well you've been very generous with your time today Jake we really appreciate it and

1:20:03 Thomas: I really appreciate it.

1:20:03 Jake: Well, it was so much fun. Thank

1:20:04 Thomas: I could keep grilling you for another hour if you you want, or if you want to go.

1:20:04 Jake: You so much. No, I got to go read up on what Alphabet did because I didn't have a good answer for you. I was not prepared. I did not. Well,

1:20:11 Thomas: For sure. No, truly, truly a pleasure to speak to you. I, and I really do respect, like I, I was blown away by how much you're willing to just go into lion's den and, and, um, and take people's questions and admit what you think you got wrong. And, and it, to me, it's like, it's almost, it's almost gracious to a fault. Like, it's almost like your integrity. Cause the thing, the thing I wanted you to do is at least poke a hole in those worldviews a little bit to say, it's not like you got this, they, the conservatives got this right because they have like a better way of doing news. You know, they didn't get, Megyn Kelly didn't get it right, or these other, you know, conspiracy theorists didn't get it right because they're doing a better news thing. That's not why. And I feel like they got left with that impression. That was my only thing that I just really, really regret. But I think it comes from your integrity of not wanting to do that, of not willing to say, well, what about you? Well, what about you when you did this? You know like, I don't think that's something you would really ever do. And it's like this weird thing where I don't know what the solution there is, but I do. I just wanted to say that I really respect where you're coming from there. And ultimately, thank you so much for coming on and feel

1:21:16 Thomas: Free to have the last word on that if you want.

1:21:16 Jake: Thank you. Don't give yourself. I mean, I'm not comparing you to the folks you don't like. But I mean, like you asked some tough questions, too. I mean this was a lion's den of sorts as well. And then look, for journalists, we're in a time where there is such distrust in the American media. And it's not just conservatives who distrust us. It's progressives, too, and centrists, too and like we're not blameless in that. And so I do believe in answering tough questions and including not just Megan's and Barry's, but yours. And I think that we can only win trust back when we try to be as honest and open and about these sorts of things. And I certainly do not think I'm infallible or every decision I've made is the right one. In fact, anybody who knows me knows I spend a good deal of time thinking about all of my mistakes, including the wedgies I gave to people in seventh grade. But, oh,

1:22:14 Thomas: That's nice that you weren't on the receiving end. Jeez. Check your your wedgie privilege, Jake.

1:22:16 Jake: I was, I Was, believe me. Oh, then eighth, no, eighth grade came along and then all of a sudden I was a late bloomer. So eighth grade wedgies were mine to receive.

1:22:22 Thomas: Gotcha.

1:22:26 Jake: Ask not for whom the wedgie master tolls.

1:22:26 Matt: But I think what I hear you yeah

1:22:29 Jake: But I will say, but I will say it was a pleasure. It was a lot of fun. And I hope people check out the new book, Race Against Terror, which, which

1:22:35 Thomas: I was just going to say race against terror for sure. We want to get that, that, in there. That's really fascinating.

1:22:39 Jake: Is also like, I mean, there's it's not like there's no politics in it, but it's not a polemic and it's not, it's really just a story about people in government who are trying to do a good job and keep us safe. People in the military trying to do the same thing.

1:22:49 Matt: For sure it's journalism is what it is

1:22:50 Jake: And you'll, and you'll meet people you like and you'll meet people. You'll meet the people you like and you want to know more about them. And, you know, it is heralding the federal workforce in some ways.

1:22:59 Matt: Any other I know know we really I also appreciate your work for veterans I know you've been doing a lot of that over the years and and

1:23:00 Thomas: Stuff. I

1:23:04 Jake: Thanks. Yeah. Yeah, I got the, every year I do, I hit up any celebrity I've ever met and ask them to donate stuff for an auction that we have. And all the money goes to Homes for Our Troops, which is this great, highly rated charity that builds specially designed homes for the most severely wounded veterans of Afghanistan and Iraq. And it really makes a huge difference in their lives because they can use the kitchen and use the bathroom and everything. And like, it's just this incredible charity that I just happened upon one time and we raise as much money as we can. So anybody in November, look for the Homes for Our Troops auction items, some of which, you know, if you want to have lunch with Paul Rudd or stuff like that, like it can be kind of cool.

1:23:19 Matt: Great great good stuff well uh great

1:23:43 Thomas: Do want to have lunch with Paul Rudd. I didn't know that was a possibility. All

1:23:46 Jake: You can bid. You can bidding. Thank you so much. This is so much fun.

1:23:49 Thomas: Jake Tapper, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time. Go get the book, Everyone: Race Against Terror. Wait, did you do the audio book for this one? Or are you going, that's not out yet.

1:23:58 Jake: Did. I did, and there are a lot of, oh my God, you would have wanted to know all the Arabic and Nigerian names that I had to learn how to pronounce, but

1:23:59 Matt: Awesome yeah

1:24:00 Thomas: Fantastic. I will be checking that out. Wow. That's gotta be tricky. How do you have the time to do? Okay. We'll let you go.

1:24:09 Jake: Thank you. Thank you all so much, this is fun.

1:24:11 Matt: All fly

1:24:11 Thomas: So much. Take care.

1:24:11 Matt: High free bird thank you so much

1:24:12 Thomas: Yeah.

1:24:12 Jake: Okay, bye-bye. Thank you.

1:24:17 Clip: This has been Opening Arguments, produced by Thomas and Lydia Smith, with editing help from Peter Baird. The intro is by Thomas Smith. This outro is by Matt Cameron. Support the show at patreon.com/law. Contact us through Patreon or openarguments@gmail.com. Make sure to follow our Bluesky at OpenArgs. But most of all, please share the show. Thanks for listening.