Alan Dershowitz tries to pull a literal "nothing to see here" on Epstein

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Clip: Thank you.

0:00:25 Thomas: And welcome to Opening Arguments. This is episode... well, I don't know. It's a new thing, I'll tell you in a moment. Thomas Smith, and here to tell you the Wednesday schedule is changing. &A the other week or month, or even your year, thought it was so much fun and we wanted to try to do more stuff like that. But of course, there's no more time for any more work at all. So I had the idea that the only way we could do something like that is if it is not edited. If it's a live show, it's alive, live thing, then I can do it because because editing is really where the time suck is. That's where 90 percent of my life goes. So we gave it a try and it was so much fun. It went way better than any of us even could have dreamed. Of course, had the amazing idea to name it Vapid Response Wednesday. On some of the most vapid think pieces and other miscellaneous things, of course, related to the law and to the topics we talk about anyway, but we really have wanted to find more ways and times to take on like some ofthe awful, you know, opinion columnists and other other, you now, intelligentsia, whatever, who just are so bad at their jobs and yet seem so influential have a disproportionate impact on what everybody seems to be thinking and saying. And got enough. We'd like to put a stop to that single -handedly. We're doing it. It's on YouTube, but of course, I'm going to put out a nice high quality audio version for podcast listeners. And it's going to be a podcast. You can just continue listening like normal, totally fine. Or if you'd like us, I'll pop that YouTube link link in the show notes you can watch it there but you know hey still give us the download of the podcast that's that's really kind of important actually if you don't mind oh and uh what about t3be well for one heather's new job I guess the maybe the school year the preliminary stuff is starting up because she is busy for the next couple couple weeks unable to record so I figured this is a great time to give this a try anyway and based on how this one went I think we're pretty pretty set on this being the new Wednesday. T3B will not go away. I still love it. I want to do it, but I'm not sure where yet. It may be something that we do for patrons. It's somehow we do it on YouTube or stuff. One way or the other, it will need to no longer be edited in order to fulfill the not adding to workload requirement, but one way or another, it'll continue. And I'm hoping and maybe we can have guests. It'd be fun to have guests on that. Like find somebody, you know, another YouTuber or something and say, hey, come answer a bar question. Know, that kind of thing. That could be fun. Still working that out. Either and also what about part two with Chase Abudin? Well, that's the plan Friday's episode. I know. Sorry to break him up like that. But it's because of the Wednesday being replaced by this schedule stuff. But anyway, that is what it is. So, part two with Chesa will be Friday. Really excited for you to hear that. So good. Alright. Enjoy the very first Vapid Response Wednesday, either by continuing on listening or by check it out the YouTuber link. You enjoy. It is.

0:03:15 Thomas: It working Oh wants me me to press another thing it may start someday wait we may be we may wait uploading

0:03:24 Matt: It says, I'm told it's starting.

0:03:27 Lydia: Yeah, I have a button that says end recording. So I don't

0:03:28 Thomas: It's like already starting uploading you have a button that says end recording oh

0:03:33 Lydia: Know if I can click it. I'm not going to try. So,

0:03:35 Matt: Oh, I don't have that power.

0:03:35 Thomas: Don't try yeah you have the the ability yeah oh wow hi we're opening arguments how's it going everybody this is our our first what Matt brilliantly named Vapid Response Wednesday. So excited to announce this. I'm Thomas. That's Lydia. That'S Matt. We're doing this format where we're all thirds of a screen with two people that blast in your face so much that it's scary. But with three, I think it looks okay. I think It looks okay.

0:03:38 Lydia: Spousal privilege. Privilege hello yep less

0:04:03 Thomas: So we'll stick here.

0:04:03 Matt: It's a party. It's got

0:04:05 Thomas: Yeah. How are you guys doing? Lydia.

0:04:03 Lydia: Scary less scary yeah yeah I

0:04:08 Thomas: I'll call on you. I got to realize it'd be specific.

0:04:08 Matt: It. Go ahead.

0:04:09 Lydia: Know yeah roll call um

0:04:12 Thomas: Sound off.

0:04:12 Lydia: I am doing really well I'm really excited to step into kind of this this idea this new format we've been talking about can't wait to hear more of of what you're thinking Thomas on this and also thank you guys for having having me, I don't know, involved in the show in this way. I'm really looking forward to it and getting some face time, too, with both of you all. So I'm good.

0:04:34 Thomas: Matt, how are you doing?

0:04:35 Matt: Great. I'm on vacation on Block Island, Rhode Island, one of the best places on earth. And I just can't wait to talk about Alan Dershowitz. Very excited.

0:04:43 Thomas: So this is going to be so much fun. I'm going to do just a little bit of explaining, but I don't want to bog down. We've been wanting to do a couple things here at Opening Arguments. We're wanting to change stuff up. We want to find a way to do more video, and we also want to have me not die. And basically the editing is, is killer. The workload is killer and we're doing some things going forward to try to reduce that. And one of them is we're going to start doing this video, live video for Wednesdays called Vapid Response. And it won't be edited that way. That saves so much work for me. And, and it also will be a lot of fun. It'll be a loose, fun hang. For now, Now we're recording these on our own. Someday I had the idea. Oh, I'm running this past you guys right now, here and now.

0:05:19 Lydia: Production

0:05:33 Thomas: I hadthe idea that we could open it up to like top patrons, like they could come hang for the live video.

0:05:32 Lydia: Meeting right now. Oh, OK.

0:05:38 Matt: Come hang, for sure.

0:05:40 Thomas: And but because like our thinking was we're going to go through stuff. We didn't want to make it live for everybody because we don't want the chat like kind of this format isn't like, you know, we want to focus on what we're covering. So we were worried about like being distracted by the chat and all that. And that's more of a like a Q &A thing. But I think we might, maybe, maybe top patrons could be a way to go that.

0:05:40 Lydia: I love that. Yeah. I mean, they're the best friends of the show, right? Like they deserve to be in the room with us.

0:06:01 Thomas: Yeah, and if they say something while we're recording, I want to, I wanna know, you know, so

0:06:06 Matt: Always happy to hear from him. That's right.

0:06:08 Thomas: Yeah, so this format will be, well, Matt, why don't you tell us what you had in mind for this format, this Wednesday format going forward?

0:06:15 Matt: Yeah, well, we usually have Rapid Response Friday, where we respond to whatever's going on in the news, try to make sure that you understand the law in the I've been thinking for a while, just in our times, the way things are going, it's time to go on the offensive. So I want to pick out the worst stuff and we can just read it and respond to the very stupidest things we can find that our enemies are saying. And we have many. So let's make some more, too. Why not?

0:06:35 Lydia: Might as well what else do we have going on

0:06:37 Thomas: Fantastic, yeah, there's, there're endless amounts of dumb, we have so much it's already too much, but like my, like going forward to one thing that I really want to do that, Matt, I think you're on the same page is the quality of thought among the opinion writers of even not just the shitty papers, like the wall street journal that we're going to use today, even the New York times. I mean, just, just today we're putting out on where there's woke very late. Unfortunately, we're put out our, uh, we did two episodes on pride and on the New New York Times piece that they allowed. What's his name again, hon? This is what we have to do live. Andrew Sullivan.

0:07:01 Lydia: Andrew

0:07:17 Thomas: That's it. To put out in their front page, massive cover of the opinion section. And it's just the most dog shit, lazy thinking. Like it's the kind of thing where I never would have dreamed as a, as a college student or whatever, as an aspiring anything that that level of just truly vapid bullshit could get you on the New York times. Like, Like it's sad and that's part of what we want to take on. I'm really excited. So I think I've said enough. Should we get to our first thing or is there anything I forgot?

0:07:16 Lydia: Andrew somebody sullivan yeah yeah yeah

0:07:46 Matt: Yeah. No, no. We're going to kick it off with show favorite Alan Dershowitz, one of our favorite enemies of the show. So very timely to our episode last Friday when we talked about all the legal issues around Jeffrey Epstein. I guess Dershowitz was listening in and decided to provide his perspective on what's going on with the Epstein case right now. And of course, as we're recording this, it is constantly in the news every day. Donald Trump can't get away from it. And Alan Dershowitz can't gets away from this. He can't away from him because, of course as you might remember, he's wrapped up in some of this. We'll talk about that. So this is Alan Dershowitz doing what he does best and just talking, just defending himself. Self.

0:08:21 Thomas: This, shall I pull it up and we can look at it? So this is, he wrote, okay, the inside scoop on Jeffrey Epstein. Oh, good. The inside. Oh, is he, this is a confession? Is this a signed confession? Finally. I've been waiting for that. Oh,

0:08:23 Matt: So sadly, no.

0:08:33 Lydia: This this title is doing a lot of work it is incredibly misleading honestly honestly.

0:08:40 Matt: Yeah, I will remind you before we get started that attorney client privilege does survive death. So if he had the inside scoop, he couldn't give us to us anyway. Like this is such a misleading angle.

0:08:47 Thomas: It does survive. Oh, yeah, that makes sense, I guess.

0:08:50 Lydia: For forever.

0:08:51 Matt: Yeah. Right. So and I mean, the subplot is I was his lawyer, I know things that he can't disclose, right? Or that the court can't disclose. Well, so what? You're not gonna tell us, obviously. So what's

0:09:01 Thomas: Oh, I know things that court orders won't allow me to disclose. Oh, I love it. Okay.

0:09:01 Lydia: Yeah, so why are you writing this? So who cares?

0:09:02 Matt: The point of you? Right. Right. But yeah,

0:09:06 Thomas: So that's a tool to say, look, Hey, it's actually not that bad. I can't tell you.

0:09:06 Lydia: So why is the Wall Street Journal? Yeah,

0:09:11 Thomas: Ah, hands are tied.

0:09:12 Matt: Trust me, bro.

0:09:13 Thomas: Um, but the court ordered me. They're like, Hey, Dershowitz, don't you tell everybody how not that, how bad this was. And I'm like, Oh dang. But trust me, it wasn't that bad boy.

0:09:23 Matt: You better not put this in the Wall Street Journal, Alan Dershowitz. So he won't, don't worry.

0:09:27 Thomas: Cause he, if he's telling us, he can't telling us then that means, means the only message you're trying to get across with that is, you know, like, I know, like, just trust me, bro.

0:09:37 Matt: Yep, that's all it is.

0:09:37 Lydia: That's literally what it is.

0:09:38 Matt: And there's so much misdirection going on here. We'll have to break it down.

0:09:43 Thomas: Do you want to go ahead? You're driving.

0:09:45 Matt: Let's kick it off. Lydia.

0:09:49 Lydia: So we have the inside scoop on Jeffrey Epstein. I was his lawyer. I know things that court orders won't allow me to disclose. I was Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer. I know the... Yeah.

0:09:59 Matt: Hold up. First of all, I just love that as an opening sentence. That's a wonderful full admission just to begin with, right? But I just want to point out that he was not just Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer. He considered him to be a friend, and they finished each other's sentences now, literally, to that level of friendship. And I want to point out, before we go any further, Alan, we are drawing directly from the New Yorker article that you probably should just pull up to show everybody. I think we did send that to you.

0:10:01 Thomas: We already got to stop. Okay. Oh, oh, that was what that was. Oh man.

0:10:24 Matt: This is so we don't get sued, or at least we'll get sued along with the New Yorkers. But the New YorkER wrote this in 2019. He has said many years ago that and respond to every point in there. And he never did that. But this article is killer.

0:10:36 Lydia: Nothing happening.

0:10:38 Matt: Like this thing, he hates it.

0:10:37 Thomas: Hey, look, I get it. Dersh, as a podcaster who frequently wants to cover stuff we never get to, I get You know, where you're like, I'm going to go through all of this and I totally get it. Like, so that's the most sympathetic thing.

0:10:49 Lydia: Look at that. Look at that cartoon too. Like, Like, it's so good.

0:10:52 Matt: I love it. I love him. Yeah. Yeah. We'll link to it. But yeah, this is a great article.

0:10:56 Thomas: Wait, who is that? Oh, is that, who's that? Who's that.

0:11:00 Matt: Oh, that probably caused von Biele, the Newport guy. Yeah. Yeah. Killed his wife.

0:11:00 Lydia: I don't know. Oh,

0:11:04 Thomas: I don't have the trading cards of all of Jeffrey Epstein's horrible people. He's, he's

0:11:07 Lydia: Who's

0:11:08 Matt: No, this are Dershowitz's clients.

0:11:08 Lydia: That? Mike Tyson. Yeah.

0:11:11 Matt: He just happens to really, really like to represent men who do terrible things to women. That's kind of his deal.

0:11:08 Thomas: Defended. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Boy.

0:11:17 Matt: So I just wanted to point out before we begin that any facts I'm talking about are either going to be coming from this article or directly from legal pleadings that I can link to as well. So we're not going to Be Going Beyond the Boundaries of What's Been Reported, but there's plenty out there. And this piece is good reading for anybody who wants to go deeper on it. So yeah, I just want to read from that very quickly, though. He called Epstein brilliant and said that when they talked, debating mathematics, genetics, law, and psychology, nobody finishes a sentence. We cut each other off.

0:11:40 Thomas: Age of consent. I mean, no, no. Just

0:11:42 Matt: Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

0:11:43 Thomas: Math, math stuff. Math like 15. Never mind. 18 minus five equals age of. No, no!

0:11:50 Matt: Just turbocharged friendship. We cut each other off all the time because we just get it. He's the only person outside his family whom we would trust to evaluate drafts of his books. You know, that has to be pretty serious. His wife once asked whether the friendship would endure if Epstein suddenly filed for bankruptcy. Dershowitz replied, I would be as interested in him as a friend if we had hamburgers on the boardwalk in Coney Island and talked about his ideas. His many ideas. Is. So again, even if he were a poor, I would be friends with Jeffrey Epstein.

0:12:07 Lydia: I love this. Yep.

0:12:21 Matt: That is quite a statement from Alan Dershowitz.

0:12:21 Thomas: Name one idea that that could be like get name one. So this was that from. So that's from the New York article. But like when was that quote or.

0:12:29 Lydia: 2019. Oh, well, that quote, we don't know. That one's not sourced specifically there.

0:12:36 Thomas: Okay. But still like name one idea.

0:12:37 Matt: But I just want to, yeah, right.

0:12:39 Thomas: Like what would that be? Give me, give me, just give me one. Dersh.

0:12:42 Matt: Apparently, he loved talking about science with sciencey people who wanted his money. So, and they got a lot of it.

0:12:46 Thomas: Yeah, he did. That is a thing. Epstein did do that. He like cozied up to a lot of scientists. Steven Pinker. He's a frequently.

0:12:52 Lydia: Steven Pinker, Lawrence Krauss.

0:12:54 Thomas: Yeah! Oh boy! Those amazing people.

0:12:55 Lydia: I saw a picture of them all together. Yeah.

0:12:58 Thomas: So great.

0:12:58 Matt: And my impression is they were just kind of flattering him because he had all this money to give to all these different things. And like, Oh, yeah sure, great ideas about physics yeah keep going keep going

0:13:03 Thomas: Well no okay but however oh do you not know about the Lawrence Krauss defense of him? Oh my God. Uh, lot here. I'll talk on, look up Lawrence Krauss defends Jeffrey Epstein. It is so dog shit. Like it is, it is unbelievable. Lawrence Krauss, the amount of defense he put up of Jeffrey Epstein, like I'll just say it's alarming. It would raise alarm bells. I don't remember what, to what extent, um, Pinker defended him. Him I don't remember but lawrence krauss definitely did did you find it huh here well do you from memory he said I'm a scientist and so I gotta go where the evidence and I don'T see any evidence that uh that he there's any any underage girl or whatever so like he he specifically tied in his scientific credentials and used that that currency that he had to defend jeffrey fucking epstein yeah

0:13:41 Lydia: Well, I found I found where Rebecca Watson covered it on Skeptic. Yeah yeah yeah basically says yeah you're

0:14:07 Matt: Well I applied the scientific method okay

0:14:09 Thomas: It was literally something like that I'm remembering this from the time lydia he'll tell me right now yeah

0:14:14 Lydia: Basically right he basically said that he had never seen Epstein rape a minor and he's a scientist.

0:14:20 Matt: Oh no so I know what that looks like uh

0:14:23 Thomas: We're working on um detectors for that kind of thing um that can detect those those rape particles but uh for now what are you talking about dude so stupid

0:14:34 Lydia: It's pretty crazy. The money thing. I know you guys talked about this on Friday's show as well. But the money thing seems to be like really, really influential in pieces here, too. Right. With the Lawrence Krauss connections, Epstein gave a lot of money to help support Krauss's various initiatives at schools.

0:14:47 Thomas: That's the only thing I will say in

0:14:49 Lydia: Schools.

0:14:49 Thomas: Fairness it could be just about securing funding and defending someone who's giving you a lot of money I love the best case scenario is it's a bribe best case scenario is effectively you've gone for bribery yeah oh

0:14:58 Lydia: Well, and I think that's a great angle, too, because in the New Yorker piece, you know, the author is talking about a hedge fund that Dershowitz got involved with that he knew about through Epstein, and they ended up losing a lot of money. Apparently, Epstein contacted the hedge fund manager and said, quote, one of us is going to make Alan whole, and if I have to do it, that is an outcome you will regret. And so the hedge funds manager gave basically Dershowitz all of his money back. And then Dershouitz says he never heard that Epstein had made this call and that he understood Kramer had restored his money because he felt a quote moral obligation from a hedge fund manager.

0:15:37 Lydia: And and when you've signed documents, paperwork like that very standard, if you lose money, you lose Money. Right.

0:15:43 Matt: Yeah it's a gamble

0:15:44 Thomas: Well that clears that up what what are you talking about? It's, he's just felt bad. You know, hedge funds famously, they're like, oh, I feel bad. So here's some money. They're so nice. Hedge funds.

0:15:46 Matt: And epstein said that he it's

0:15:53 Thomas: They'RE doing a lot of work that the church should be doing, you know?

0:15:50 Lydia: They're so kind and and generous. Yeah.

0:15:57 Matt: Like at poker when you lose a bunch of money that people just give you the money back right it's just you know uh

0:16:00 Thomas: It's why those tournaments take so long, you know, cause they're, like, oh, all in, oh guys, hey, he went all in.

0:16:03 Lydia: I have to write a check back to them.

0:16:07 Thomas: They, like the the table like crowd funds him back into the tournament.

0:16:08 Lydia: My god yeah

0:16:12 Matt: But I'm glad you brought that up because that was really serious because apparently epstein was threatening to pull like 40 million dollars or something over dershowitz's 200,000 or whatever it was so like that's that's the extent of this friendship also uh it says that Dershowitz wrote and I didn't find this I think it's paywalled somewhere but he wrote something for the ABA saying that he wasn't sure he could represent on Epstein because they were acquaintances, and he basically defended how he thought he could anyway. And they were acquaintances. He spent a lot of time on his plane. He's logged quite a lot of time there. And there are other allegations about how closely acquainted they were we'll get to, but I guess we can get past the first sentence now.

0:16:29 Lydia: Thank

0:16:41 Thomas: Hey, that's, that'S the way that's our way.

0:16:44 Matt: Yeah, that's how we do it.

0:16:45 Lydia: You. I know the facts some of which I can't disclose because it is privileged or subject to court imposed sealing orders but what I can disclose makes several important things clear. Epstein never created a, quote, client list. The FBI interviewed alleged victims who named several, quote, clients. These names have been redacted. They should be disclosed, but the courts have ordered them sealed. I know who they are. They don't include any current officeholders. We don't know whether the accusations are true. The courts have also sealed negative information about some of the accusers to protect them. Neither the Justice Department nor private defense lawyers are free to disregard court -sealing orders. The media can and should petition the courts for the release of all names and information so the public can draw its own conclusions.

0:17:29 Matt: This is so disingenuous, obviously. He knows it's not coming out. He know under any other circumstances he'd be saying these should never be released because these people are falsely accused and it's never been proven and nothing's been settled.

0:17:41 Matt: And of course, as we talked about But on Friday, of course, there's no client list. We have the so -called black book of everybody that Epstein had in his Rolodex, essentially. And then we have the flight logs, including many times that Dershowitz and Trump were both on those planes. So that's what we have so far. But he is, yeah, right.

0:17:54 Thomas: So I'm still unclear on that. What do we, don't we have, we have there's no technical client list, but there's a list of people who, what, who we contacted, but also a flight list.

0:18:06 Lydia: Just all of his people, right?

0:18:07 Matt: Contacts.

0:18:08 Thomas: Cause I like, I'm genuinely wondering, is that just what we've all thought of when we we say the words client list or was there a thing that we thought existed that didn't exist like I don't I genuinely don't know help me out here oh

0:18:09 Lydia: Like, it's just anyone he had connections with.

0:18:21 Matt: I don't think we know either, but it doesn't seem like there's like a database of everybody and how much money they gave him and acts they performed or something that the MAGA people seem to want at this point.

0:18:28 Thomas: Like as if they were like paying him for like like that like if he were like if they Were literally paying him to have sex with minors or something mm

0:18:32 Lydia: Access to, yeah.

0:18:34 Matt: And, well, I mean, those wire transfers we talked about on Friday are pretty serious. Like, there's a lot of money coming into them, about a billion and a half from all these different places, including Eastern Europe that, you know, they're just sending money back to. I mean it's, again, we could probably do the paper trail from that if the DOJ actually wanted to do it. But Dershowitz, again as with all of this, as with the grand jury thing that Trump and Bondi keep trying to lead us to, it's all misdirection.

0:18:55 Matt: It's all just saying, if you looked over there and this thing that you can't see, you'd see that I'd be completely exonerated along with everybody else. Else. But, you know, the media should really be asking, as if the media hasn't been trying for years to get all of this, right?

0:19:06 Lydia: Right.

0:19:06 Matt: Come on, come on.

0:19:06 Thomas: Police

0:19:08 Lydia: Yeah, the American media, please. They want to know all of that stuff. There has also been speculation about incriminating videos taken by hidden cameras in Epstein's guest bedrooms. There are videotapes, but they are of public areas of his Palm Beach, Florida home. Epstein reported the theft of money and a licensed firearm from a drawer in his living room. So the police installed a video camera. I am not aware of video cameras in guest bedrooms."

0:19:31 Thomas: Installed sorry the police installed

0:19:33 Matt: All right. Okay. All right.

0:19:35 Lydia: This feels like such a weird thing to call out in what is relatively a short op -ed. Like like kind of talking about this thing in particular feels so it's a little disconcerting to me.

0:19:35 Thomas: A video video camera? Yeah. Well, no. So I was actually going to say maybe,

0:19:49 Lydia: I'm like, oh, is there something there, though? I don't know.

0:19:51 Thomas: I don't know. I was actually going say that like the next thing that could be considered the client list is if there's video and he can't, cause like it, it seems so unlikely that this fucking guy, Jeffrey Epstein didn't do some amount of like maybe leveraging or maybe something called like something like blackmail. And that it's, it, It seems like video could have easily been a part of that. And so I get that Dersh wants to address that. And so his excuse is like, no, no. There's just a police, a camera the police set. Do the police do that? Like, do they set it? I guess if you're the

0:20:24 Lydia: I mean, he has a lot of money. Yeah.

0:20:24 Thomas: 1%.

0:20:25 Matt: So I don't know, but I mean, obviously Dershowitz is talking one, one incidence of which he's aware. And I love the way that this, this paragraph is written like objective journalism. Like he's collected the facts about the videos, right? Because the the reason he's saying this is because both uh Ghislaine Maxwell and uh known victim Virginia Giuffre both said that there were extensive video systems virginia and maxwell herself has said that they are her leverage like she has copies of these videos allegedly she told one of her best friends that she and jeffrey have both have copies of this stuff and they know where it is and that I think that might have a lot to do with what's going on with Todd Blanche and this negotiation that's happening right now because she may really actually have access to to some, you know, secret encrypted thing somewhere.

0:20:57 Thomas: That the police wouldn't have gotten? That she buried X marks the spot?

0:21:03 Matt: So, because I wanted to mention, when the FBI went into Epstein's house in New York, they found a safe full of CDs and hard drives and money and jewelry and passports, but they didn't have a search warrant to remove anything from the safe. So they just took a bunch of pictures, came back a couple of days later, no more evidence, it's all gone.

0:21:19 Matt: And yep, yep, no, that's all very well reported. And I'm not going beyond what the reporting is here.

0:21:18 Thomas: Wow. I didn't know that. Holy. Holy, I'm surprised Dersh isn't telling us about that. How weird.

0:21:28 Lydia: We do also know that Maxwell had stepped into a blackmailing sort of role also with specifically with with Giuffre. Frey, right? Like when when she left and then things were starting to blow up for Jeffrey Epstein, she called her out of the blue and was like, hey, how's it going? And then basically said, you know, we have some things going on and what can we do to make sure that you don't talk to the police? And that Giuffre was like I'm not going to talk. I'm not talking to anybody and I don't want anything from you. Basically leave me alone. And then And Epstein and his lawyers then found her very soon after. And she was like frightened for her life, understandably. So we know that these are tactics that they were willing to take on women who were, you know, victimized by them. I don't know why we would assume that they would treat this client list or whatever any differently. I think that it's all about leverage and, you Know, staying in power. Right.

0:22:27 Matt: Yep, yep. And all this stuff that Joshua says, like you said, it's so weird. It's so carefully, narrowly stated, everything that he's saying in this paragraph. It is

0:22:34 Thomas: That's a common way to deflect is by saying like, oh, they talk about video and then just bringing up one instance. Well, there was a home video once that he showed somebody of something and then we're supposed to be like, Oh, that is what the video. Oh, okay. It was entirely just this.

0:22:47 Lydia: That's what they meant. Yeah.

0:22:50 Matt: Also interesting that he says, I'm not aware of any guest bedroom recordings, right? Because he knows that there was a video system, right. So he's just saying, I am not really sure of the extent of it.

0:22:56 Thomas: Any video cameras? Yeah, I am not aware of any video cameras in guest bedrooms.

0:23:02 Lydia: It just feels weird. It's like it's like answering a question that no one asked you in some ways.

0:23:02 Matt: It so weird, yep, yep and

0:23:02 Thomas: ,I don't know. Feel specific. Well, that

0:23:07 Lydia: Like, like, I mean, I

0:23:08 Thomas: Part, I don't know why you're saying that, because I feel like what he's responding to is this idea that there's blackmail videos everywhere. So he's responding to that.

0:23:09 Lydia: Don't know, I guess.

0:23:17 Thomas: Yeah.

0:23:17 Matt: Certainly, yeah.

0:23:17 Lydia: But but ultimately, like if if you're pushing back on this idea of like a client list and all of that stuff, I Don't know why you couldn't just leave the op ed like focused on that. This just feels like a very weird thing to then also have like a little tiny paragraph about as well. But just my opinion.

0:23:33 Matt: The subtext of all of this is you will never see me, Alan Dershowitz, in any of this evidence, right? And that may well be true by the end of all this. All right, let's see what's next.

0:23:37 Lydia: All right. Open records show an acquaintance between Epstein and Mr. Trump many years ago. That relationship ended when Mr. Trump reportedly banned Epstein from Mar-a-Lago long before becoming president. I've seen nothing that would suggest anything improper or even questionable by Mr. Trump. I don't think anyone is being like, oh, you were still friends with Epstein when you were running for president. Like like that's not what the issue is there. Long before becoming president. Like the issue is that you were still friends with him knowing that he was like doing all of this stuff with underage girls.

0:24:12 Thomas: It doesn't really say, he doesn't give us a specific year. Again, it's all these expert ways of kind of look over there, like the nothing to see here, you know, he just says that like, oh, their relationship ended though. And I was like, okay, when, how, how much like, um, sexual assault did they do before that? You know, like how much, uh, underage trafficking did they did before that? I don't know, but like, you're just, you can't just say like, Oh, well they no longer, you know, they were no longer friends after a certain point.

0:24:32 Lydia: Yeah,

0:24:43 Matt: Yeah. I believe there's some kind of a real estate deal that went bad that started it. And then Trump most recently, just within the last day or two, has said that they fell out because he stole people from Mar-a-Lago. And we do know that Virginia Giuffre, and he especially mentioned her, he specifically mentioned her. Was one of the people that he stole away. She was working in his spa uh so that's gross my

0:24:51 Thomas: Here we go.

0:24:52 Lydia: 24 hours. Yeah yep yep.

0:25:03 Thomas: Hey, when you're accused of associating with human traffickers, maybe don't be like, yeah, Yeah, he stole one of my people from, yeah, that's why I don't like him is that I don'T mind when he's trafficking people wherever anybody else's people, but people that I own, human beings, he took one of mine. That's not cool. No longer friends after that.

0:25:12 Matt: My property yes he took my property right yep

0:25:28 Lydia: I think this is like an especially interesting admission also because prior to literally a day ago everybody was saying like Like, well, there are some differing thoughts about what soured this relationship. You know, some people were like, oh, it was the real estate deal in 2004. Some people said it was because he was being a creep, you know, around Mar-a-Lago. There were just a few different things. But now you have it coming out of Trump's own mouth where he's like, he was stealing my young employees, underage girls from my establishment.

0:26:00 Thomas: Look, traffic all you want outside of my home. But once you come into my house and traffic some of my my people that I've trafficked first or whatever.

0:26:03 Matt: That's right that's it don't traffic a trafficker yeah yeah yeah

0:26:11 Lydia: And and you know just to because I have to call out I have to call it legacy media I have to call legacy media where like you know the words that were being used were stole right when when he's talking about this you have the washington post calling it poached now and that feels slimy yeah yeah recruited exactly recruited to be a private it masseuse oh my

0:26:15 Thomas: That's really good. Yeah. Oh, headhunted. Recruited. Yeah, boy.

0:26:36 Matt: And I will point out too that if if either of them cared to they could have walked to each other's houses at this point they live two miles away epstein was two miles miles away from Mar-a-Lago at this point. So just in case there's any question about how they love Palm Beach, they have a lot in common.

0:26:46 Lydia: That's crazy I wonder

0:26:49 Thomas: Why do they live so close? Interesting. Yeah. Yeah they really did have a lot in common. We've seen the footage of them getting along on quite nicely.

0:27:00 Lydia: All right it is clear from the evidence that epstein committed suicide what isn't clear is whether he was assisted by jail personnel that seems likely to me based on the evidence of allegedly broken cameras transfer of his cell mate and the absence of guards during relevant time periods.

0:27:17 Matt: This is weird, Owen. Why are you bringing this up? It's just weird.

0:27:19 Lydia: Yeah, it is weird.

0:27:21 Thomas: Well, I think it's for the same reason that Trump did. I think what's going on here is they want to be able to point to things to get people's minds going that don't implicate them at all. You know, like, hey, what happened with him dying?

0:27:33 Lydia: Like the Epstein issue is actually, yeah,

0:27:36 Thomas: Yeah, like we're like, what happened to all the trafficking and you were a part of it? But they want us to be like, oh, did he die? Oh, did the guards help him? Because like, there's no way. I don't look, Look, there may be people who believe this. I don't believe Trump had anything to do with Epstein's death.

0:27:50 Thomas: I don't believe that Dershowitz had anything to do with Epstein's death. So that's why I think they're comfortable to just be like, hmm, what went on with the death there? Oh, it's kind of weird, you know?

0:27:59 Matt: I'm sorry, this is really

0:27:59 Lydia: Kind of

0:28:00 Matt: Morbid, but the idea that Jack Kevorkian was working there, I guess, that they assisted in his suicide, it's just very weird phrasing.

0:28:00 Lydia: Weird, right?

0:28:07 Matt: They helped him out.

0:28:05 Thomas: So well, yeah, no, yeah. I do think like honestly bribing guards for that kind of thing, like that doesn't seem out of the question to me.

0:28:14 Matt: It's possible. Sure, sure, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, the assistant just takes it to another level of active. But yeah. But, yeah, I mean, like you said, it's also I think that a lot of this I should have said this earlier. I think he's just trying to establish the official narrative because we're going to be seeing a lot of this in the next couple of weeks as we get closer to the potential pardon and or a Supreme Court, you know, clearance. I think that, yeah.

0:28:34 Thomas: And think about how much, what? Oh, sorry.

0:28:36 Matt: No good.

0:28:37 Thomas: Think about how much work that we already talked about it, that I've seen the records. I know the, I can't tell you, but I know because then that, that just primes us so that all of this article, well, he has secret knowledge that we don't have, but we don'T have any idea how much of this Article is based on that. Or if there's one thing he's loosely basing on that and everything else is just him speculating, you know, cause like when it comes to some of this other stuff, the suicide, he has no inside information onto that.

0:28:49 Matt: Better trust him. Right.

0:29:05 Thomas: The, um, you know, the next thing we're going to talk about here, I don't think he would have any, or you can tell me, go ahead.

0:29:10 Matt: He might might actually uh but

0:29:11 Thomas: Oh, okay. Okay. Well, let's read it because

0:29:12 Lydia: All right, let's get into it then. I have absolutely no doubt that Epstein never worked for any intelligence agency. If he had, he would surely have told me and his other lawyers who would have used that information to

0:29:22 Thomas: We're so close. I mean, it was lawyer. I just, it's a lawyer.

0:29:27 Lydia: Get him a better deal. And then, yeah,

0:29:28 Matt: Wait I'm sorry he's fishing he's facing a 53 page indictment put him away for life like this relative actually put him way for life and he gets a non -prosecution agreement just remind everybody through alex acosta who became trump's uptake of labor and alan durst when he says I was jeffrey epstein's lawyer he means during that time when he got him that deal

0:29:29 Thomas: All right. Okay, oh,

0:29:35 Lydia: So crazy.

0:29:44 Thomas: So when he's saying getting a better deal, he means during that time, I was just assuming it was for the thing that ended up getting him. Oh my god there is no better deal there's no better deal ever ever given to any person relative

0:29:50 Lydia: It's the sweetheart deal. Yeah. Yeah, I know.

0:29:58 Matt: He should have gone away for life.

0:29:59 Thomas: To their horrible crimes and relative to what the time they should have done I mean that's just come on

0:30:03 Lydia: It's also like such a joke the way that it was was set up to like the the time that he did serve right the the work release program he got to participate in that immediately and that's not something that was like in the sheriff policy right and then um and then they had the guards dress up in suits like to welcome any of his visitors and stuff like

0:30:13 Matt: And go home. Yep mm Mm-hm. So he could sit in his office for his work release, yeah. So bad.

0:30:26 Lydia: And then They had a tv set up in like in another cell it was like this really weird strange like sims universe thing that they they played around with it was It was so strange.

0:30:34 Matt: That he was paying for. Yeah. He gave

0:30:37 Lydia: So strange.

0:30:37 Matt: The Palm Beach Police Department a lot of money, and he got to just do his own thing.

0:30:40 Lydia: His cell was unlocked. He got to leave whenever he wanted to.

0:30:44 Matt: No, I guess Dershowitz is saying because the whole case wasn't just dismissed, you know, that proves he's not intelligence. But remember that Alex Acosta

0:30:45 Lydia: Ridiculous. Yeah, not good enough.

0:30:50 Thomas: That's literally the only better deal like there's nothing else sorry

0:30:53 Matt: Said that I can't give a better deal. I had to give this deal because he belongs to intelligence. This is but my pay grade. He said that in public, and that still has not... And he tried to kind of walk that back a little. He's never fully walked that back. So there is... And again, we don't need to speculate too much beyond what we know. But there's very good reason to believe that both Mossad and the CIA might have had interest in what Epstein knew and what he'd been recording. And there's plenty of testimony from victims that epstein would ask them about things that they had done specifically with other people especially famous people just to keep note just to Keep track of everything so you know again this is so unconvincing yeah

0:31:25 Lydia: And I do want to say like while we're talking about that sweetheart deal and Alex Acosta like you know that the DOJ report coming out being like oh there was no you know maybe poor judgment but no misconduct. Even Ben Sasse is like he's pissed about this. Ben Sasse said on

0:31:45 Thomas: I missed this poor judgment on what what was this

0:31:47 Lydia: On Alex Acosta and this sweetheart deal from the early 2000s. Right. Even Ben Sass says, quote, letting a well -connected billionaire get away with child rape and international sex trafficking isn't poor judgment. It is a disgusting failure. Americans ought to be enraged. Jeffrey Epstein should be rotting behind bars today. But the Justice Department failed Epstein's victims at every turn. That's from Republican Ben Sasse.

0:32:11 Lydia: He's he's livid about how this has worked out.

0:32:11 Thomas: You don't get any more consensus than all of us plus like four republicans that's that's as much that means it's the sky is blue like that's yeah 46 republicans they're not going to sit there quiet about whether or not the sky is blue they're waiting to see if trump has any bill about the sky being blue or not oh

0:32:21 Lydia: Seriously.

0:32:15 Matt: It should be best we can do yeah yeah no just to really put the nail in it too just remember everybody that this was the non -prosecution agreement was that he would not be federally charged and would face dinky state charges he could have been facing even minor Miner federal charges would have been way more serious than what he got. So this, again, yeah, as Thomas said, no possible better deal. Let's keep going.

0:32:46 Lydia: All right. Then we have a parenthetical. He wasn't satisfied with the so -called sweetheart deal he got, which required him to spend one and a half years in a local jail and register as a sex offender.

0:32:55 Matt: I'm sure he wasn't. Of course he wasn'T satisfied.

0:32:57 Thomas: So that so it so dirsch as you know a skilled lawyer is anticipating our very obvious counter that we just had which is what are you talking about there's no fucking such thing as a better deal and he's oh well he wasn't satisfied with the dealing is

0:33:11 Matt: He didn't like it.

0:33:12 Lydia: So -called sweet heart deal. So - called. Yeah.

0:33:15 Matt: I mean, yeah.

0:33:15 Thomas: It what how do is he allowed to just say that isn't that wouldn't that be attorney -client privilege if anything was like it because that's they're like they're they're taught their discussions about dealings and stuff I don't know like I

0:33:27 Matt: I'm guessing he probably told other people that, too, so it's safe. But yeah, I was wondering that ,too. But I mean – yeah, again. This is just like the idea that he would – instead, I guess, he would have a press conference and be like, like, well, we're having this dismissed because it turns out my client works for the CIA and Mossad. So see you, everybody. We're just going to keep doing that to

0:33:29 Thomas: Guess yeah interesting so we'll reduce that one and a half years to nine months yeah like all all for all for offering himself up as an intelligence asset or whatever revealing it which who knows like if he were I feel like that could potentially endanger him right I don't I don't know yeah

0:33:46 Matt: Zero. Dismiss. Should have been dismissed.

0:33:48 Lydia: So strange. Range.

0:33:55 Matt: Yeah, absolutely. Why would you do that? Yeah, I mean, it's just, it makes no sense. It's just on its face. All right, let's keep going.

0:33:59 Thomas: Boy

0:34:03 Lydia: My sources in Israel have confirmed to me that he had no connection to Israeli intelligence.

0:34:08 Matt: Oh, what are we talking about? Sorry. Sorry, Alan. Didn't get that far.

0:34:11 Thomas: I this this fucking guy this fucking guy those are the are they in the court records that we can't see too no this is just you talking out your ass God

0:34:12 Lydia: My connections. Yeah. My resources.

0:34:16 Matt: He's like, I means, he is basically Israel's defense lawyer at this point so he does have sources in israel no doubt but uh yeah I don't doubt the rest I think

0:34:28 Lydia: That false story recently peddled by Tucker Carlson probably emanated from credible allegations that Robert Maxwell and then gives us his date of, you know, from his birth date to his deceased date for some reason, 1923 to 91. I don't know why that matters. Father of Epstein's former girlfriend, Ghislaine Maxwell, worked with the Mossad.

0:34:41 Thomas: I'm not sure what the yeah okay

0:34:49 Matt: He's trying to say that to say like maxwell couldn't have met epstein and like directly passed on the torch but like going obviously knew plenty of people and there's... there's a whole bunch of investigative journalism on the possible ties to massad I'm not going to speculate that much it's beyond what I know but it's pretty convincing that one way or another he was working for intelligence of some kind yeah I find it convincing

0:34:49 Thomas: He's dead before poor. Yeah. Really? Wow.

0:35:08 Lydia: Basically, we're opening up like, yeah, this this rabbit hole for everyone to fall down into with us off air. We're not going to do it on air, but conspiracy

0:35:13 Matt: Now I whitney webb seems to have done a lot of work on this it's probably worth a look but yeah I can't validate that so literally

0:35:22 Lydia: Stories attract readers, viewers and listeners. They are also fodder for political attacks. Tax. The Epstein case has generated more than its share of such theories, and there is nothing more annoying to gossip mongers than when stubborn facts, or the absence of facts, get in the way of a juicy theory. Sorry to disappoint you, but there is really nothing much to see here beyond what has already been disclosed.

0:35:44 Matt: Nothing to see here that's how he ends it literally can't do better he

0:35:48 Lydia: Why are you writing this op -ed?

0:35:47 Thomas: Because there's nothing to see here, didn't you? It's like you didn't even understand what you just read.

0:35:51 Lydia: So dumb. God.

0:35:55 Thomas: No, I get that's the part I do get. He's writing this because he needs to. He needs to defend against all of this stuff. I'm surprised he didn't talk about keeping his underpants on. Sad.

0:35:54 Matt: Has spent yeah yep yeah he very specifically does not mention his own involvement his own culpability the allegations I will point out the allegations in Jane Doe lawsuits, which he took as some kind of vindication. The Jane Dole lawsuits against J .P. Morgan, where they sued and got a bunch of money for victims because of the violations of the CVRA, it doesn't really matter right now. But in those allegations, they were very specific about Dershowitz's involvement, and we don't have to read them out right now, but there's some very specific, very detailed allegations.

0:36:07 Lydia: Again, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

0:36:29 Thomas: Why not? I want to know. I don't know.

0:36:31 Matt: Well, I do have them.

0:36:31 Thomas: Give me the gist of it. Yeah

0:36:33 Lydia: Yeah, pull it up. Pull it up, Matt.

0:36:35 Matt: The lawyers actually, in one of these filings I just had up, They go on. Yeah, here we go. Very quickly. Epstein required Jane Doe No. 3 to have sexual relations with Dershowitz on numerous occasions while she was a minor, not only in Florida, but also in private planes, in New York, New Mexico, and the Virgin Islands. For some reason, he's really intent on the New Mexico thing not being true. He doesn't mention the other ones. In addition to being a participant in the abuse of Jane Doethe No. 3 and other minors, Dershowitz was an eyewitness to the sexual abuse of many other minors by Epstein and several of Epstein's co -conspirators, which, again, he spent a lot of time around Epstein and in Epstein. In Epstein, he had to have been aware. Dershowitz would later play a significant role in negotiating the MPA on Epstein's behalf. Indeed, he helped negotiate an agreement that not only provided an immunity from federal prosecution, but also to any potential co -conspirators.

0:37:19 Matt: So again, this is just making the obvious point that he would have made a deal that directly benefited himself, potentially. Even as somebody who was a witness, by the way, who might have been a conspirator in some sense that he didn't say anything.

0:37:28 Thomas: How how was any of that allowed lawyer wise what I never understand what's allowed Matt he's part of the case he's parts of the whatever and he can make the deal the deal benefits him he like because honestly even from like not that give a shit about Jeffrey Epstein but just in terms of the rules of lawyer attorney client stuff if Epstein if Dershowitz wants a deal that protects all co -conspirators that could conflict with epstein who would have wanted to do the best deal for himself and so it could have been that dershowitz gave stuff up maybe hypothetically to get a better deal for himself and

0:37:33 Matt: Showbed.

0:37:33 Lydia: Mr. Harvard ethics professor. What are you doing?

0:37:41 Matt: Yep. Yep,

0:38:00 Lydia: Right, right.

0:38:03 Matt: Yep, yep. Yep.

0:38:07 Lydia: Rather

0:38:07 Thomas: Not for epstein again I don't give a shit about epstein but just in terms of how this the attorney client like stuff works like you would think that would be unethical like at the very least on Dershowitz's parts part can

0:38:08 Lydia: Than for his client. Yeah

0:38:16 Matt: Himself and a network of people he knew about that he's friends with or is otherwise connected with, right, that aren't his client.

0:38:20 Thomas: You you just do that as a lawyer, Matt. I need an ethics teacher.

0:38:22 Matt: No, none of this. This

0:38:24 Thomas: I need a Harvard ethics teacher, how?

0:38:25 Matt: Is beyond my understanding of how any of this is supposed to work. But, yeah,

0:38:29 Thomas: And furthermore, furthermore sorry, there should be on the bottom here. You know how in studies you have to do a conflict report or whatever the bottom should be. Mr. Dershowitz is definitely part of one of the, of the trafficking. So take this all with a grain of salt like, come on. Oh

0:38:43 Matt: I do need to add, just so we're representing his side here, that Jane Doe 3 and 4 were not added. So 3, they were trying to get a 3 added, and that was the one that he was supposed to be involved with. The judge did not vindicate him in saying this. He said, basically, this is just an unrelated party. We're focused on Epstein right now. We're not bringing other people. But Dershowitz took this as a complete vindication, obviously.

0:39:01 Lydia: Of course he did. Yeah I he's

0:39:02 Matt: And filed his own very indignant affidavit in the case. So I just have to reference that.

0:39:05 Lydia: Also had like this sort of of not necessarily flip -floppy, but from the New Yorker article, the author writes, he has since said that Epstein's case is the only one out of more than 250 in his career that he regrets taking. Dershowitz told me that he was misled about the severity of the allegations. He said that epstein had told him that, quote, there were only half a dozen accusers who were under the age and that, they slipped through the cracks, they presented fake ID. He added, quote when I later learned the extent of this I was shocked but but

0:39:38 Thomas: Half a dozen child sex traffic counts. I mean, what is that between friends? But fucking

0:39:43 Lydia: Then but then here you are like getting out of the federal charges so then you can just do state charges so you like I mean it's just it's disgusting it's discussing yeah

0:39:51 Matt: Yeah. I will point out, to get that deal, not just Dershouitz, but Ken Starr was also involved in negotiating this, which is super weird. Roy Blackhook, who just passed a few days ago, Jack Goldberger, former U.S. attorney Guy Lewis, Jared Lefkord.

0:39:53 Thomas: Guy, nobody has more fucking chutzpah than Dershowitz. Really?

0:40:09 Matt: And Lefkoe, I'm not remembering his first name. But all had to represent him to get this incredible deal. So this was a joint effort, full credit to all of them for this wonderful work.

0:40:16 Thomas: Unbelievable. The amount of corruption involved in that is just staggering.

0:40:19 Matt: So bad. Yeah.

0:40:21 Thomas: Disgusting.

0:40:23 Matt: Well, we want to go into something a little goofier?

0:40:25 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, that would be nice. Let's let's do something else. What show is brought to you by Lisa. Was kind enough to send us a mattress. Here's the think. Obviously being, established in our lives, already had a bed. We have a bed, but I thought, ah, great. A mattress for the guest room. Could use a new mattress. Lisa sends us this mattress now I'm starting to strategize as to like maybe I can like stage some fights with Lydia and do the I'm in the guest room or something you know because like it's that good and with these that we have to mentioned our work schedule grabbing sleep here and their is is vital and yeah away into the guest room for a cheeky minute nap nap because the kids don't know to look there they're the last thing they expect I love you don't know about Lisa, well, they have a lineup of beautifully drafted mattresses tailored to how YOU sleep. The Luxury price tag, because mattresses, boy, by they can have wild markup, I've found. You don't need that. don'T want to mess around with sleep. It's me literally the most important thing for my all -around mental health, my regular health. And from night one, you'll feel the difference. They got a great deal right now. Go to Leesa, that's L -E -E S -A. For a Labor Day early access sale. Give you 25 % off mattresses. Plus Plus get an extra $50 off with promo code opening, exclusive for our listeners. Listeners more time that's l -e -e s -a dot com promo code opening for 25 off mattresses plus an extra 50 off be to enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you that's lisa lisa .com promo code open it sleep on it that's that's all me that was all me they don't have any responsibility for that terrible dad joke

0:42:11 Thomas: What do you have for us?

0:42:13 Matt: So this is an absolute classic. And one thing I meant to say about the format is what I'd love to do is pair up like breaking stuff like we just talked about with Epstein with classics. And this is a classic in my field. It's one of the first things I thought of and we thought of rapid response because this video that we're about to see is one of the best known videos in immigration sort of policy education from the right. And I actually, I show this video in my class every time I teach immigration policy at the graduate or undergraduate level. And not as an educational tool, but just as a fun way to do what we're about to do to try to respond to it and have students by the end of the class be able to use their critical thinking as we're all about to doing on this video.

0:42:20 Thomas: Love it. Ooh.

0:42:46 Matt: But it's got 7 million views on YouTube. It's very well, very popular. I actually had one student tell me that she had been shown this video in class as a serious teaching tool, which is amazing to me. And I'd like to find out which professor that was. But we're going to hear from Roy Beck of Numbers USA. And we'll talk about Numbers and Roy in a bit here. But I just want to say up front, Roy Beck is a very well -known opponent of immigration. And NumbersUSA is connected to the Tanton Network. John Tanton was a racist Michigan dentist who dedicated his entire life to just funding anti -immigrant stuff. And one of his deals was basically doing,

0:43:19 Lydia: Dentistry like what what

0:43:20 Matt: Yeah, it's just like a fun hobby. And honestly, John Tanton is proof that one person can make a difference, honestly, because he put a lot of time and effort into corresponding with white nationalists, Ku Klux Klan leaders. His papers came out, because my friend Hassan has a lot of these papers, and more and more is coming out from his correspondence. And more and the more the people like Roy Beck have had to distance themselves from Tanton. But Roy Beck, again, worked directly for Tanton as an editor for the Social Contract, which is his white nationalist magazine. Magazine, worked very closely with him, denied to Congress that he was under his direction in 2004, five years after he started working for him, uh, denied again, you know, that he was taking money, even though at that point, millions and millions are coming in from different foundations still associated with Ted. And, uh. So I just want to set this up because, uh., the New York Times, of course, likes to let us know Roy Beck is a genial opponent of immigration. Uh. He's a very, you

0:43:21 Lydia: A weird career path yeah Yeah.

0:44:09 Thomas: Genial.

0:44:09 Matt: Now, Ozark's easygoing kind of guy, as you'll see. He just wants to get to the answers.

0:44:12 Thomas: Genial opponent of... Sorry, what's that from? The New York Times what?

0:44:15 Matt: That's from the New Yorke Times, naturally.

0:44:15 Lydia: New York Times.

0:44:16 Thomas: When? What? A genial opponent of immigration.

0:44:17 Matt: Like 2014 yeah yeah yeah a genial

0:44:23 Thomas: Come on.

0:44:23 Matt: Force behind bitter opposition genial force behind bitter opposite so that's and that's exactly what he wants to be is like the funnily the friendly grandfather who you know voted for Obama once right

0:44:32 Lydia: Grandpa vibes for sure. Like you definitely get grandpa vibes from this.

0:44:36 Matt: And also idiot vibes but let's let's take a look at right back I'm gonna just like this last one I'm gonna stop you on the first sentence gotta warn you up front

0:44:41 Thomas: Do... Oh, so do we want to go straight to the video here?

0:44:45 Matt: Let's let's get to it gumballs to a live audience by the way this is a vhs tape that was passed around before it was on youtube this has been around a while

0:44:48 Thomas: Let's see. Wow,

0:44:46 Lydia: Pull it up. Oh, my God. My favorite is the audience's reaction like throughout this. I love it.

0:44:53 Matt: Handpicked audience they're great oh can't hear him no

0:45:00 Lydia: Sound.

0:44:57 Thomas: It's blowing my ears out. You can't hear it?

0:45:02 Lydia: We can't hear. No.

0:45:04 Thomas: Why would that be? Let me retry. Right oh we're live that's right can you hear now uh let me okay let me try like removing that and redoing it uh that's what you heard it when I played that before right like when we were testing it hmm nothing has changed let me just try re I'll unscreen share and re -screen share maybe something uh got buggy there let's try it hold on here we go let's try how about now hold on no yeah

0:45:02 Matt: Sorry no

0:45:39 Thomas: No you can't hear it oh boy that's incredible why would that be it's supposed to you should be hearing it just from this like it should be a part two oh is it like muted somehow let me see Oh full -screen layout did somehow what why would that be happening I actually have no explanation for this so it worked before let me try opening it in a like reopening it again okay does anyone have anything else to say while I test this somebody somebody vamp take over that's

0:45:41 Matt: Sorry we tested him let's double check over

0:46:22 Thomas: Not vamping do

0:46:22 Matt: Sorry assuming we could cut this but there

0:46:25 Thomas: You not know what vamping you can't do this you have to do that okay let me just try okay I reloaded it is this good no what is happening because this isn't coming through my crazy setup this should just be we're screen shared and it were let me uh okay let me try one more thing here um you definitely heard it before stop screen huh um okay well I'll do one more try and then we'll see we'll say what what happens here

0:47:00 Lydia: Here. Well, while we're setting that up, Matt, I want to know your thoughts on, you know, Beck says that he came to be interested. Oh, there it goes.

0:47:08 Matt: It is there itis yeah okay

0:47:09 Thomas: All right just needed to do the right combination of things Do you want to finish that sentence?

0:47:14 Lydia: Yeah. I just want to Know what Matt's thoughts are on this where Rebecca said, like, he became interested in immigration because of population growth because of the effect on the environment.

0:47:24 Matt: Thank you for for reminding me.

0:47:24 Thomas: Sure. What a saint.

0:47:26 Matt: I meant to talk about this.

0:47:26 Thomas: So glad.

0:47:26 Lydia: What are what are your thoughts there

0:47:28 Matt: So Tanton was a genius at this because he understood that he could get to a lot of different audiences. He knew that his limited audience was going to be with white nationalists and actual Klan members, right? That's not that many people. But in the 60s and 70s, there was the ZPG, the Zero Population Growth Movement, was very popular among environmentalists, especially the idea, let's stop having kids. And then, of course, he's a eugenicist, so then it becomes, well, let'S decide who stops having kids, and maybe certain continents shouldn't have as many kids as other continents. He also, I should point out, funded at least one group that was basically designed to turn black Americans against immigrants, completely funded and run by white people, of course. And as well as one of those kind of facially on its face, just asking questions kind of things, but a US English was just to get English education into schools. But the entire purpose of it was to stop bilingual education and stop Spanish education. So, you know, just across the board, just a whole potpourri and a cornucopia of bad and racist stuff.

0:48:22 Thomas: You know, and that kind of bad faith shit they've been doing for so long that I'm so sick. I can't believe we're still falling for it. I don't believe the media is still falling good journalism to credit someone's bullshit explanation for their racism that's not good journalism but somehow we decided if someone says well no I'm just the environment the environment okay well as a reporter he says he's concerned about the environment and that's why he's a fucking racist it's like do better journalism where you actually look into it and don't even and sometimes they do the thing where they're like well he says this but you know many would would disagree or the evidence. I skip past that too. You tell me, you look into what he's done in the past. What are his initiatives? What are the things he said? You know, just with, and this is one example. There's a million of these.

0:48:49 Matt: And they're doing it, right?

0:49:14 Lydia: But

0:49:20 Thomas: You telling me what the actual truth is.

0:49:21 Matt: Well, and every single article should always mention that he said in writing specifically that he wants to be sure this country has a European -American majority. That's what's important to him. So that's what it always comes back to. And like, obviously, if you just say that out loud over and over again, you're not going to get the kind of following that you might get if you say that you care about Black people and ecology and English language education, right? So, yeah.

0:49:23 Lydia: It's just facts right at that point pretty clear mm

0:49:43 Thomas: But somewhere, andthis is going to be a theme. Again, I think of the stuff we're covering for Vapid Response. Somewhere in journalism fucking school, they decided that if a racist, if a Klan member says, says, no, it's not, I'm just, it'S, I'M concerned about the environment. It'S bad reporting if you don't say that like if you don't like credit that as their reason but it's that's just being gullible that's all that is it's not good reporting that doesn't bring me the truth in any way okay let's see if we wait long enough for this to not work again the good okay okay world I mean immigration and gumballs yeah

0:50:14 Matt: There we go. Get that music.

0:50:15 Lydia: We're good.

0:50:25 Matt: Hold up. Just going to say right now, as an expert, just going to weigh in and say for 19 years, I've been studying this in this field. I've Been reading around in this Field. I 'Ve been talking to a lot of people who care about this field in both law and policy, and I've never heard a single person say that we can solve world poverty through immigration. I just want to say that up front. Front.

0:50:42 Matt: Some people say that. This is the strawiest straw man that I've ever seen presented. He's creating a kind of guy and telling you.

0:50:41 Thomas: What what yeah solve it is the straw man that yeah yeah. Is it like, well, some people think that if we take in the world's poor, we're so great as a country that'll be, that'll reduce poverty overall. Is that kind of what he's saying? People say, yeah.

0:51:02 Matt: That's what he's responding to. Yeah.

0:51:05 Lydia: That that was like my feeling, too, was like, first of all, there's no way anybody says that the World Bank is not going to say in order to solve extreme poverty across the entire world, everyone has to like move to the rich places. Like that doesn't make any sense at all. Like why would that be the solution? And even if those people did move to the richer countries or whatever, there's no way that they wouldn't continue to be in poverty because of the way that we treat immigrants in general, disabled communities, like the undereducated, like those people would continue to live in poverty just in a different place.

0:51:40 Thomas: All right. I want to see if he's going to eat this gumball. What?

0:51:55 Matt: Tasty. Let's roll it around.

0:51:59 Thomas: It's like sniffing it like a wine.

0:52:14 Matt: The nation of Africa.

0:52:17 Thomas: That's a whole lot of gumballs. You couldn't find one container that That just holds all of it.

0:52:22 Matt: Nope. You have the bonus one.

0:52:24 Thomas: This is the whole conceit of your stupid idiot talk. Is the gumball theory of whatever. And you had to find two. You're like, damn it. This is a big deal. This is one of the biggest container I've got. Print out another Africa sticker. Fuck. I gotta. Damn it. Wait. If we. Would it work if I just put it on top? Does it look like one thing? No, it doesn't look like One Thing. I need to get another sticker. All right. God damn it! It's a slightly different look too on the font.

0:52:49 Matt: You My favorite food, of course, the milkshake. You always get the little extra metal container with the extra milkshake, that's what he's got there, his extra gumball container. I do want to point out while we're stopped that these people love, for some reason, comparing immigrants to candy and to food. You remember the Skittles thing, where Trump Jr. was like, oh

0:53:09 Thomas: Because our friend Eli Bosnick went viral for his response to that. Yeah.

0:53:12 Matt: Yeah, way back, yeah.

0:53:13 Thomas: He shared a quote or something that got was pasted to a meme and then went mega viral, I think. So, yeah, that's why I remember the Skittles thing.

0:53:21 Matt: Yeah, he said basically, if I handed you a jar that had one poison Skittle in it, would you take any from the jar? And of course, the analogy is more like if you had a warehouse, but whatever. But it's also weird.

0:53:31 Thomas: And they're not poisoned. What

0:53:33 Matt: They're not candy.

0:53:33 Thomas: Are you talking about? Out

0:53:34 Matt: It's just, yeah.

0:53:34 Thomas: If I it's more like if I took this warehouse of skittles in which there's some poison ones and I combined it with this other bigger warehouse that has a higher ratio of ratio of poison ones if I smash those two warehouses together what that's the actual analogy there's more poison ones per person per skittle there's More Poison Skittles per Skittle here already that's just a a fact all you're we're not eating it we're just combining the Skittles and it's actually making us less poison as a whole anyway

0:54:08 Matt: There's another one too I'm not remembering, but yeah, let's keep going.

0:54:19 Thomas: So maybe those came in a set of three. No, let's find out. Oh no. Okay, it's like damn, Costco only had a four pack of these cylinders. What

0:54:23 Lydia: How dare you bring Costco into this, this is an Amazon purchase. Please, it

0:54:31 Thomas: Sorry, when is this from? I thought this was super old.

0:54:33 Matt: Oh, it is. Originally filled in 96 or something, yeah? And yeah,

0:54:34 Lydia: Is super old I just will not hear slander about Costco.

0:54:37 Thomas: Amazon did not this was clearly

0:54:39 Lydia: Costco would not support this.

0:54:39 Thomas: A Costco I'm not slandering during Costco he bought the cylinders at Costco okay rest of Asia rest of Asia how I can't okay oh my god of almost half the world

0:54:45 Matt: It's not their fault. I

0:54:47 Lydia: Rest of Asia. No, no, no. So so pause there. Pause there. Because I was like, there's no freaking way that that is true. It's literally not possible. So I was looking at they don't have the data going back that far. And I found like a blog post from an author that was like like, looking at these numbers as well. And they said that they actually had a big methodology change. So it's kind of hard. Like, maybe that number technically existed at some point. But Roy Beck has never updated, like, any information about this video on his website, on YouTube, anywhere. They specifically say in their FAQs, hey, if you find an issue with something we're reporting, reach out, let us know, and we'll get

0:55:11 Thomas: Not possible yeah

0:55:36 Matt: Was going to say that. Yep.

0:55:47 Thomas: Mm

0:55:47 Lydia: It fixed. This author from the blog blog post, tried that, never heard anything, tried again, never heard anything. So this number, this 3 billion people, there's no way to like, like maybe he saw that at some point, but it's with a methodology from the World Bank that they are not using anymore because it was flawed. So let's talk about like actual numbers, what we're looking at. Granted, it's more recent than what Roy Beck is dealing with here, but I think it helps give an indication that 3 billion makes absolutely no sense. So

0:56:17 Thomas: Stop you I can just tell you three billion doesn't make sense I save you some trouble no you did some work we'll let you let you you continue that's

0:56:23 Lydia: So in 2017, the threshold for like this desperate poverty score was $2 and 15 cents a day. And there were 611 million people in the world making less than that. Um, in 2021, they raised the dollar amount to $3 a day. Makes sense. And There were 808 million people making less than that nowhere. Are we even getting close to like the billion mark?

0:56:46 Lydia: Not, not even close. And you would think that again over time this would grow uh and no yeah three billion makes absolutely no sense so just wanted to call that out

0:56:46 Thomas: Not even close yeah not even close yeah

0:56:55 Matt: And also, even if it mattered, which it doesn't really. Even if it matter, it doesn' make any sense to say all those people, Are you familiar with Camp of the Saints? Do you know this book? I don't expect you've read it. I think it was either Stephen Miller or Steve Bannon said it was his favorite book. It's a disgusting, racist book.

0:57:14 Matt: I actually have read a lot of it because it's available on PDF. Not coincidentally, Tanton's publishing company at one point did publish it. It's almost like a satire of a flotilla of brown people coming over from India and other places that we don't want, coming to Europe, and they just ravage Europe, basically. Basically. They take over and they're just disgusting. And they're described as these inhuman animals, basically. And the fantasy he's setting up here is that there's just all these ravenous, inhuman people that are just at our door, that are just ready to come here, right? And surveys, by the way, show that most people would not leave their countries, even under difficult circumstances. It takes a

0:57:34 Lydia: God yeah yeah

0:57:50 Matt: Really special kind of person.

0:57:50 Thomas: And the ones that do want to leave their country you said it was india

0:57:53 Matt: Yeah, that was the example in the book, yeah. In the surrounding areas, yeah?

0:57:57 Thomas: Because europe uh has done a lot of great things for india over the year like the ones who do want to leave probably because fucking britain ruined it like come on unbelievable

0:58:02 Lydia: Because the white white people ruined it yeah yeah

0:58:05 Matt: Genocide. Yeah, yeah. And so just remember, that's the sort of the thing when you see the shock in the audience and like the faces and the reaction. That's what he's going for is like thinking about all these poor, desperate, non-white people that want to come here. When in fact, like you look at it, there's a classic example of when everybody knew the wall was going to go up in Berlin. Literally, there was a subway that you could take from East to West Berlin if you wanted to move to the other side. And people chose to stay with their families, even knowing life was about to get a lot worse in East Berlin. You think about Hurricane Maria, right, where U.S. citizens could have come from Puerto Rico but still toughed it out and stayed maybe out of poverty maybe because of social ties maybe because they don't know anybody here they don't speak the language right there's lots of reasons but those are people that are U.S. citizens that could have moved anywhere in the United States and they stuck with after the hurricane

0:58:47 Thomas: And then they would get to vote right if they moved

0:58:49 Matt: Right that I mean it would and I mean it's just so just even inside our own country people don't move after disasters right and so So, I mean, this is the idea that these people could or would, right?

0:58:58 Thomas: Well it shows the dehumanization these aren't people to them like they they don't put their there's no empathy there's not putting yourself in in their shoes they're just they're just a threat they're a brown threat to these people

0:59:05 Matt: They're a mess. Yeah. And, yep. Yep. Or a colorful gumball threat. Just a whole bunch of colorful, some of them are white, sort of, but yeah, no, they're just gumballs. And that's, again, it's all part of the dehumanization.

0:59:19 Thomas: He should have taken out all the white gumballs

0:59:20 Matt: That's true. Let's just be honest here. Yeah.

0:59:23 Lydia: Drive the point home gumballs of color

0:59:25 Thomas: Does he oh does she have an america cylinder that's just white gumballs balls that'd be really funny oh god all right we keep keep going here I want to see what other what other uh like tupperware he has that's mainly what I'm interested in we

0:59:27 Lydia: My gosh keep going oh

0:59:28 Matt: Red, white, and blue gumballs. Yeah, it was good.

0:59:40 Matt: We just pull them out. We take them. We did two sec

0:59:50 Thomas: Don't shit what other gumballs we got oh cameraman fighting the one person of color in the audience lingering and

1:00:15 Lydia: My god oh it gets

1:00:18 Matt: So we saw a couple of others before too I meant to point that out before that they like very prominently centered and who knows how they got them there and what they're doing there but this is a really important part of these people's message is that it's not just white people who are concerned about this stuff

1:00:21 Lydia: It gets even better yeah

1:00:35 Thomas: Perhaps I should have said I didn't watch, I saved myself for marriage for this. Man, I didn't watch this lydia prepped but I did not watch yeah this is I'm so I'm you're I'm reacting in real time to what the fuck this old idiot is this is crazy I did not. He's got all these gumballs and he's like, now, but this is all irrelevant because the gumballs we're actually getting are from Mexico. Well, where are those gumballs? Did you run out of Tupperware? Are they, because they're not poor, are they different gumballs, like are they a different kind, go, their tootsie roll pops, I don't, what are they

1:00:39 Matt: As it should be honoring the compact love it that's at your best

1:01:12 Thomas: What what that's like the whole world at

1:01:19 Lydia: Back then, that's like almost the whole world.

1:01:24 Thomas: A certain point just has everybody's a gumball just that we're all gumballs what have you accomplished what oh wow hold on there's murmurs yeah I gotta go back there's murmurs sorry I gotta get crank this up a little bit sorry what what year was this what

1:01:32 Lydia: You hear the hubbub? Yeah. Oh, it's so good.

1:01:34 Matt: 96 1996. I think at the time, there

1:01:45 Thomas: Was the population in 96 7 billion somebody google it

1:01:46 Lydia: It's probably the exact number that he's saying, minus 100 people so

1:01:53 Thomas: Wait, but he's saying 5.6, maybe I'm losing track of his gumball theory

1:01:56 Matt: Were $5 .8 billion in 1996, according to this.

1:01:59 Lydia: So 5.6 billion of the 5.8 billion people are in poverty

1:02:03 Thomas: Am I crazy That's what he's saying, right? Isn't he saying 5.6 are poor? 5 .5 billion?

1:02:05 Lydia: So yeah Yes, because 3 billion are the extreme poverty level and then there's another 2.6 million people that are really poor

1:02:13 Thomas: Back then? Sorry. This is even dumber. I thought the population was higher back then. So when he did this, he's essentially saying, see everyone in this room? Look to your left, look to your right. We're the only ones who aren't poor. This is it. This is right here. Everybody else?

1:02:26 Matt: And yeah, we're surrounded by the poorest.

1:02:27 Lydia: This and bill and bill gates this and Bill Gates that's it yeah

1:02:31 Matt: I will note, for what it's worth, actually, global poverty has actually done a lot better since. Numbers have gone up quite a lot since he recorded this. Like you said, they're refusing to update the numbers. But yeah, let's keep going. On. The elites.

1:02:59 Lydia: The elites

1:03:08 Matt: I'm sorry.

1:03:09 Thomas: What?

1:03:09 Matt: As an elite, let me tell you, never said that. I've never once said that in my life. I said we do better by pulling in refugees, obviously people who are actually afraid to return to their countries, but I've said we're going to improve the entire world by pulling people from other places. Now, I will also point out, though, when you pull a million people a year, and a million is still pretty accurate as to legal immigration to this country, that's actually still pretty good per year.

1:03:30 Thomas: Per year? Or per?

1:03:31 Matt: That's about what we have in terms of permanent residence, and that's not including necessarily asylum seekers, and it's excluding some other categories as well but roughly you can say a million is about right um in terms of like regular immigration and so just think about the overall I mean you can actually because in terms of just remissions um what's the word money that's sent back home um just in itself right is a that's like a major supporter of global economies like el salvador um I mean they use our dollar for a reason because they're they have so much money sent back and they're doing more sending family having family send money back does more than even like any kind kind of poverty program we could do because it's targeted directly into communities right

1:04:08 Thomas: Well Hey, man, I'm so sorry to interrupt, but not to mention if there was a burning building full of 5.6 billion people and you had the option to pull a million people out of that burning billion building would you be like wow but I gotta make a difference it's barely just a million people I'm saving what the fuck look at all the other ones what are you talking about that's

1:04:25 Matt: It's a lot of people yeah yeah no and they're yeah no

1:04:23 Lydia: I do also want to say, like, he talks a lot about the World Bank. And again, the World Bank also has never said, like immigration is going to solve the world, you know, world poverty situation. They but they do have and they what they do Have, though, their reports about what their calls to action are based on, you know, the income level of your country. And so for high income countries, this is from a recent report that they did. They specifically say that high income and upper middle income countries with high emissions must accelerate mitigation to advance on the interlinked goals globally while managing transition costs. Basically, like you have other countries are being impacted by the effects of climate change And and all of these things that are kind of snowballing into bigger issues and stuff. The high income countries at the very least have a role to cut their emissions so they're not negatively impacting people's environments halfway across the world and then benefiting from that. Right. And then on the flip side for fragile countries, what they say is that low income and fragile countries need to prioritize poverty reduction by fostering investment in human, physical and financial capital. They don't say low income and fragile countries should send their people away to move to another country. They say, take what you can and focus on investment in these things that are going to help lift people out of poverty while they can still live in

1:04:41 Thomas: Not not even what I thought that we were doing.

1:05:56 Lydia: Their country.

1:05:57 Matt: And that's and I mean okay so like there's some micronation countries that are going to go underwater and there has been proposal to have like a visa program they're just like the refugee program that exists through the UN now, to literally distribute people around the world whose countries are no longer going to exist because of our emissions. That makes sense. That's not, of course, this is in 96.

1:05:58 Lydia: Stupid. Right. Right.

1:06:15 Matt: Nobody's thinking about that. But that's a very different proposition.

1:06:17 Thomas: Oh, well, we're at an hour already. Okay. We got to finish this video,

1:06:22 Lydia: We got to finish gumballs.

1:06:22 Matt: Let's wrap this.

1:06:23 Thomas: Guys. Yeah, do it. Yeah! I got to find out what's going to happen to these gumballs. I'm just in suspense.

1:06:27 Lydia: Oh, yeah. Peas and carrots, peas and carrots. Pease and carrots and carrots

1:06:53 Thomas: Sorry. Two million a year. Hold on. One million a years is what we're doing. That's fine. But if we doubled it over one mass cast, so the thing the amount we get in two years is impossible okay

1:07:04 Lydia: Sharknado.

1:07:00 Matt: Disaster. Camp of the Saints. Yep. Yep. There you go. You got it.

1:07:25 Lydia: The way he looks at those gumballs there makes me so uncomfortable.

1:07:28 Thomas: When is he gonna chew one I just wanted what oh

1:07:32 Matt: Here it comes. Here it comes, okay. So I can explain this very quickly.

1:07:57 Lydia: We got to pause? Yeah, yeah.

1:07:59 Matt: We'll keep it quick. But this is a very common argument. He's mostly right about the idea that, obviously, as we've talked about before, the kind of person who would actually make this trek, who would bring their children, who'd actually go to the effort, is the kindof person we want here.

1:07:59 Thomas: Sorry it's

1:08:13 Matt: Absolutely.

1:08:12 Thomas: A self-selecting group yeah does

1:08:14 Matt: Certainly, I can verify from my clients from 19 years of practice that these are incredible people that you would love to have as your neighbors and in your community. But that doesn't mean there's also not a lot of great people back home. I mean, but he's making the very, very disingenuous bad faith argument that, well, the real heroes, the people we love the most, are the ones who don't come. And, like, be a hero and stay home. That's the argument. Yeah. Don't do the brain drain, right? And, yeah.

1:08:40 Thomas: He want to help does he wants to provide financial support to these countries like foreign aid oh okay so he doesn't give a shit

1:08:44 Matt: He wants them to bootstrap it. Yeah, it's time to boot strap it.

1:08:46 Thomas: He really doesn't get a shit all right oh and

1:08:46 Lydia: Of course, of Of course.

1:08:54 Matt: Oh, yes. You're not even ready for this. Pink ones.

1:08:58 Thomas: They were all red too too. Yeah,

1:09:00 Matt: The commies.

1:08:57 Lydia: Pink,

1:09:00 Thomas: I think one, yeah. Bringing in. What?

1:09:14 Matt: No. Oh, no.

1:09:15 Thomas: Okay, the entire auditorium will be gumballs. They start falling from the ceilings. Release the gumball!

1:09:26 Matt: Just exponential gumballs the

1:09:28 Lydia: Oh, my God. That would have been so much better showmanship. Like, he should have done that. So much better.

1:09:34 Thomas: But I would just turn this on him and be like, well, it seems like the one gumbALL either way is making no fucking difference. Like, what? Okay. There's a bunch over there. There's going to be some over here by your logic, like that's irrelevant, like you've, you've pointed out why your argument is irrelevant and we should actually look at, do we want to help people, do we want diversity in our country or not, like that's what we should look at, and the answer is yes because like the, like if it's this much of an overpopulation problem in his eyes then what does it matter anyway like that's already going to, you're not going to fix world poverty in his eyes anyway because of all this, the new pink gumballs the pink gumballs, they're the poor ones, they're just coming in yeah stupid oh they had the camera shot ready hold on hold on hold on I gotta point something out we had right here we switched to a quick underneath camera shot there's no camera there now where's the camera so

1:10:08 Matt: Pink people are still having kids oh no ready

1:10:27 Lydia: And also the audience reaction there.

1:10:32 Matt: To go serious

1:10:35 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

1:10:39 Thomas: That means they set that shot up specifically to do that hold on everybody wait hold on on your murmurs we gotta do this again we'll set up the under gumball action shot under table they must have done that after like another can we do another take of the gumballs coming coming at you for the 3d glasses version oh no I'm doing the crowd ah ah a guy like actually barfing but I don't give a about the suffering people people.

1:10:53 Lydia: My god totally oh my God oh I love their faces so much they

1:10:54 Matt: Directing let them suffer

1:11:20 Lydia: Have to be helped where they live but they're gonna have to bootstrap it because we shouldn't help them and in the future Donald Trump will destroy all of it anyway so there you Yeah.

1:11:37 Thomas: Really? How? Oh, okay. What do you want to do?

1:11:43 Matt: Let's help them there I went

1:11:47 Lydia: So crazy.

1:11:49 Thomas: Imagine assembling a hired audience of people to clap for that. Setting up all the gumballs. Whoever the gumball guy was going to be like, I don't feel like that was worth it. Like you had me fucking get all those gumballs. Have you, have you heard of a slide projector? Just say like, no,

1:12:05 Matt: To every store in town if

1:12:08 Lydia: Also, like theoretically, did they like count them out to be accurate within their gumball containers or did they weigh it?

1:12:12 Thomas: I wanted to point out the, the, yeah, I wanted to point out the, like the size, like let's compare on a map. Like, is this really the size difference of a US to like the rest of the country?

1:12:19 Lydia: Also, you're really good. Yeah. Oh, I know. No, no, no. Definitely not. But you're you've always been super good at like guessing the number of whatever's in a container.

1:12:29 Thomas: Okay. Should we do a guess? The

1:12:30 Lydia: And like and I want to know, is is his accounting accurate based on your special skill?

1:12:31 Thomas: Gumballs? Yeah. That looks about like 5 billion to me. Yeah. That would require me listening to whatever the fuck he said. And I don't know. It seems like a lot. I just love the little carafts on the top that he just needed a little extra.

1:12:39 Matt: Anybody watching wants to count them

1:12:49 Thomas: Like what, What, what was the function of that? Would it, would it have killed your video if you didn't have that little top sidecar of gumballs for Africa?

1:12:48 Matt: Yes, the bonus cylinder In

1:12:58 Lydia: Yeah.

1:12:58 Thomas: Like would it've killed you? Just lose it. Just showmanship wise. Just lose it. You don't need it. Cut it. Cut, gone.

1:12:59 Lydia: Just for Africa. Yeah.

1:13:05 Thomas: Oh my God. This is so stupid.

1:13:04 Matt: My head, they went to every gumball store Every candy store in town and wherever this was shot And at the end he's like, we just got pink ones, can we just use the pink ones now? That's all I could find, I like that But this was also just

1:13:16 Thomas: Is it like, cause it's babies? Is that why he's doing pee? I don't,

1:13:18 Lydia: It's just girl

1:13:19 Matt: All they had left, gumballa -wise But yeah, this was before TED Talks I have to say this is pretty innovative To just have a VHS that you can send out So this guy invented the TED Talk Kind of.

1:13:19 Lydia: Babies. And I guess it's girl babies, it's

1:13:27 Thomas: Jesus

1:13:31 Lydia: Crazy. Crazy oh

1:13:31 Thomas: That is so stupid and you're saying this pile of crap is influential in our world in our country call

1:13:37 Matt: A lot of people have seen it.

1:13:38 Lydia: I mean like like they're they're credited with changing like congress's mind on some immigration policy like right after this video came out basically like I they had their followers just call their congress people over and over and ever again yeah to talk about gumballs basically and be like, have you seen the gumball video?

1:13:53 Thomas: Your local gumball no

1:13:58 Matt: And Numbers USA still is extremely influential, and they still have a lot of ears.

1:13:59 Thomas: Hi newt gingrich Are you guys letting gumballs in? Please stop yeah let

1:14:05 Matt: I just saw some gumballs hit the floor. We've got to do something now.

1:14:09 Thomas: The gumballs hit the floor. Yeah, oh my god, well, we've gone way over with 70 minutes this is a lot of fun I really like this let's keep doing this hey same time next week everybody you want to come back and do it let's find more gumball related food in curious uh storage containers related videos there got to be at least one to two more we'll see

1:14:16 Lydia: Way over. See you then.

1:14:23 Matt: Believe it or not, there's an endless supply of things to which we can respond to, vapid things to respond to. We're not doing the vapid response. It is in fact. Yeah.

1:14:37 Thomas: My response will be vapid but but it's your, your job. I didn't even introduce, for anyone who doesn't know the show, Matt Cameron is the actual lawyer, everybody. Uh, I'm just a joker and Lydia's my beautiful, smart wife. So that's, that's our roles.

1:14:50 Lydia: That's the only thing I am. Yes.

1:14:51 Thomas: Somebody cut that in the beginning. No, there's no editing. I'm not editing. It's 70 minutes. I am not editing, guys. I'm not doing it. I'm not ruining my, my wrists and back and shoulders. No. This was a lot of fun.

1:14:56 Matt: That's And we're doing it live. Yeah.

1:15:00 Thomas: Uh I can't wait to do more. Hey, thanks, uh, for watching. Thanks, patrons, for making the show happen. Tune in to Opening Arguments, everybody, and, uh. Hey, we'll see you next week.

1:15:08 Lydia: And before you sign off, I just want want to say happy birthday thomas

1:15:11 Thomas: Yeah yeah I hope you got me some gumballs yeah

1:15:12 Matt: July 30th. We made it.

1:15:16 Lydia: A lot they're gonna be spilling out of our house it's just gonna be full of gumballs and then I'll be the guy in the back going

1:15:24 Thomas: Ah it's like when the hindenburg oh the humanity okay we

1:15:30 Matt: I'm going to get a milkshake.

1:15:31 Thomas: Have to know how to get out oh yeah it's

1:15:32 Matt: I'll see you.

1:15:31 Lydia: So funny I don't know how to get out yeah

1:15:35 Thomas: Easier when I know I'm editing I just cut it I'll just stop all