This Law Student Refused to Let Big Firms Get Away with Quiet Complicity

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Clip: You must never, ever give up or give in. You must keep the faith and keep your eyes on the prize. That is your calling. That is your mission. That is moral obligation. That is mandate. Get out there and do it. Get in the way. Change happens because people care. The people have the power to make this life free and beautiful. To make this live a wonderful adventure.

0:00:38 Clip: I still believe with all my heart, America can be a place where no child is left hungry, no community is left behind, and no one gets told they don't belong. Country is always worth it.

0:00:57 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Opening Arguments. This is episode 1167. your host Thomas Smith I'll and be joined in a moment by Real Life Immigration Attorney Matt Cameron and a very special guest. Guest. Is the kind of person that just really, inspires me, really makes me feel like there's a chance we could get all this crap figured out someday. Latabashvilli is a law student and an activist creativist and somebody who I type of person I just am just blown away by. It's the kind of person that just does stuff that just organizes, that Feel like many of us are like, boy, someone Should do something and then there's another type of Person that's like, I'm doing something. They don't even say anything. They're just like, in here brackets doing something. This is the kindof interview that I will put you in a good mood, I a little spring in your step. I feel like this kind of energy is inspiring and might inspire others. So we talk about it in the interview, but Mari Ladebashvili is a law student who, major law firms started caving to Trump, decided to, with a spreadsheet about it. But it's more than just a spreadsheet. It's a important spreadsheet. It's a good spreadsheet. Documenting and sort of cataloging more than 800 firms and of scoring them on different things, assigning them to categories based essentially how much they're just complying with fascism, caving, complying in advance, that kind of thing. It really blew up in the best way. About it. First we've got to take the usual break, which you can avoid at patreon .com slash law support the show support conversations like these support media that doesn't just enable fascism that's honestly it's it's a low bar but somehow no used to be this guy but somehow almost all corporate media if not all is failing it and it's it's really really frustrating me lately so anyway, if you like what we're doing and liketo see more of it in the world, .com slash law is the place to go to support it and to lose the ads. Right. Well, after this ad break, which those patrons don't have to hear, I'll we'll be done with Matt and Georgetown law student Mari Mari Latabashvili.

0:02:54 Matt: Guest today is Mariladashvile. She's an incoming 3L at Georgetown. And she has done some incredible work fighting back against the Trump administration that we're happy to talk about today. So Thanks for coming on.

0:03:04 Mari: Thank you so much for having me.

0:03:06 Matt: How's law school going?

0:03:10 Mari: It is an interesting time to be a law student. I think both from the perspective of, oh, God, what are we going to do? It feels so weird to be going to class and taking exams and making outlines when all of this is happening. Then also from the perspective of everything that we're learning seems to be changing all the time. If you're in like a constitutional law class right now, or an administrative law class, right now things are moving a lot. So in both of those ways, it's a little bit weird.

0:03:40 Matt: No, I got to tell you, full disclosure, I took con law maybe 22 years ago. It seems like a different country, different kind of a system, almost, than what we're looking at now with everything being ruled by the shadow docket and just year-to-year changes. What took you to law school? What brought you there?

0:03:46 Mari: I came to law school after several years of working in politics. And between 2018 2020 I worked on a campaign to create an independent police oversight commission in Southern California and I worked with a couple of attorneys on that and I was leading the campaign so I was leaving the political side of things and then the attorneys were leading much more of like the policy advocacy and legal side of thing and really loved the work that they were doing. And I kind of got to know what it was like to be a lawyer. That was really the of my journey into law. And I really saw what it looked like to use kind of all the different tools in the toolbox, policy advocacy, organizing, politics, and law together to create change. And thereafter, a couple years after that, I ended up applying to law school. And here I am. I

0:04:48 Matt: Great. Was that your introduction to abolition, working on the campaign?

0:04:51 Mari: I think I got introduced to abolition when I was in college, but I think it kind of like built from there. I think a lot of different pieces started coming together. I worked at the Women's Center at UC San Diego, and I think that's where I got my first introduction to abolition to people like Bell Hooks and Audre Lorde and others, Kimberly Crenshaw. And I think That's where it kind of started.

0:05:12 Matt: Great. And you're doing abolition work at Georgetown now?

0:05:15 Mari: I started an organization called Abolition Advocacy Project with two of my friends at Georgetown who are also abolitionists. We're really focused on using our time while we're here at Georgetown to kind of integrate abolitionist views into our legal education and to work with the greater community to work towards abolition in ways small and big. And it's been really cool to some of that work come to fruition. Mm

0:05:44 Matt: Yeah, that's really exciting. I have law students interning in our immigration office every year. And just more and more, I've been seeing in the last few years, because this isn't something that we were talking about when I was in law school 20 years ago, unfortunately, at least not at my law school, which is pretty corporate, I think. More and More, it just seems that students are more steeped in it. And Yeah.

0:05:59 Thomas: Well, yeah. How popular is it? Yeah.

0:06:02 Mari: So interesting is that I came to Georgetown and I was looking for a community of abolitionists and I didn't really find one, which is why I started Abolition Advocacy Project is because I felt like that didn't exist yet. But the minute we created it, it got huge. Have, I want to say, over 200 members. That's And in the school of, so we have about 600 students per class. For an organization that started quite literally at the end of last year, I think that's pretty good.

0:06:33 Thomas: That's That is.

0:06:36 Mari: I think there's a lot of appetite I think people are understanding um origins of the criminal system a lot more um understanding like that it's been built on slavery and indigenous dispossession and they're starting to um of want to get more creative and what the solutions for that look like and understanding that what we've been looking at so far kind of like the reform angle of things is not working.

0:07:01 Thomas: You know, Matt's been getting at this a lot. Just coincidentally, we've had a lot of abolitionists I've had guests on and maybe now's the time to get into it because I, I imagine I'm all for it, but I also don't entirely always know what that means and what, what what has meant by it? What people who are calling themselves abolitionists want exactly? And how does that, you just mentioned it, but I was going to ask you, like, how does that differentiate from like, I'm not sure just because I don't know the terminology exactly if I would have said that or if I were to just said like, yeah, I want just massive reform, you know, but what's the distinction there?

0:07:33 Mari: The distinction is that abolitionists want a full dismantling of the criminal legal system. Obviously will not speak for every abolitionist. I think people come from it from a lot of different angles. But for me, it's about tearing down the current system that we have that deals with punishment. So like, the police side of things and the prison side of things and completely getting rid of it because when you change little things here and there a what lot of times happens is that you're kind of entrenching the system even further and legitimizing it and you legitimize it it's going to be that much harder to change it later and so what I think a lot about abolitionists talk about when they talk about the kinds of changes they want to create um they're calling them like non -reformists reforms um what that kind of comes down to is essentially like are the changes that you're pushing for legitimizing the system or are you changing the system along the way in a way that still um like focus on the main message which is that the system is not working and at the end of the day what we want to do is dismantle it.

0:08:43 Matt: The appeal for me, I have to say, is that we are all working toward a better world where a lot of these things won't be necessary. And I think that's the part maybe that gets left out sometimes. Not that you're living it out, but I'm just saying as a bigger picture, because the baby brain simple critique is, well, you're just going to tear it down and replace it with nothing. And of course, I assume you don't want murderous and sexual assaults to go unpunished or unsolved. I should say unpunish, because that's not really the word. To have resolution in one way or another in community.

0:09:08 Mari: And I think one way to look at it now is that right now, sexual assaults and murder are not getting addressed, right? We are all walking around in our communities with people who have committed a lot of harms and we're not genuinely held accountable for them. Because if you go to jail, if you go to prison, a lot of the time you're not being held accountable, like not genuinely hold accountable for what you've done. And I think what a lot of abolitionists look at is creating communities and building better that better address both the needs of the people who have been harmed and also the needs of the people doing the harming. Completely agree on the building part. There has to be something that we kind of build along the way as alternate.

0:09:52 Matt: So many other projects that we may never see, and we have to accept that too. And I'm okay with that, honestly.

0:09:56 Thomas: Yeah, actually, that's kind of what I was gonna ask is I absolutely not going to do and I would never do the thing where it's like, well, that sounds impractical. So your whole thing is wrong. Because that's what I feel like so many people do. I know, think I have a lot of goals that maybe we won't see even if we work toward them. But I do want to know like what kinds of things, if you're an abolitionist, what kinds OF things are you supporting like on the ground now? You know, cause I just feel like I wouldn't know. I would probably then call myself an abolitionists, but I wouldn'T really know how to put that into action because it feels like so so far away and so hard to attain that it feels like any step in the meantime is going to fall into that, you know, reforming trap that you're kind of talking about where like for legitimizes the system. Are there what candidates? Are there, you know, measures? Are they're like, what is it? Is there anything that where you're like? Yes, we support this, thing, this action, this bill, this whatever. Is it more of a philosophy that you use to approach kind of everything you're doing?

0:10:51 Mari: Think it's definitely both. But I also think that there are definitely policies that are abolitionist. An example of a policy that's abolitionist is removing cops from being able to do like regular traffic stops.

0:11:06 Thomas: Okay, I love that. Yeah, I'm I'm in. Let's do it.

0:11:09 Mari: Yeah. I mean, like, why? Why do we need someone with a gun to stop someone for not having a license or registration or needing to fix their taillights or even speeding like there's any sort of traffic violation why does someone with a gun need to go up to that person all it does is escalate the situation it puts more people in danger and it leads to death um that's like a great example of just like this is a way that we're abolishing a certain part of the system um not legitimizing the uh work that the cops are doing in that sense right Right. And we're just removing them from a certain part of of what their job is.

0:11:45 Thomas: That's really helpful. Yeah. Because I would have thought of that as reform, but no, now that you put it that way, that makes sense. No, that's really hopeful. I fully support that.

0:11:51 Matt: That's in Massachusetts to just oversee a construction site, you have to have a guy with a gun driving traffic, right?

0:11:57 Thomas: Cool.

0:11:57 Matt: I mean, that is just ridiculous. I don't know how many states do that, but we have lots of little vestiges and things like that.

0:12:01 Thomas: Reminds me of that Simpsons episode where he's shooting the gun to turn on the light and stuff. Like he's just shooting.

0:12:06 Matt: The answer to everything. Yeah. No, but how does that play out now? It play What's out on the ground in Georgetown?

0:12:11 Mari: What we do is we are working with some local organizations to work on some like policy advocacy projects. So one project that we've been working on over this past year with a couple of organizations is giving access to folks who are currently incarcerated to like civic rights. So allowing them to testify at city council hearings and be able to in real time give testimony on bills that impact them. Um think at this point have already may may have introduced the bill um are working with um some folks on the ground on getting that through and we thought it was really important because um of this legislation is impacting people who are in dc jails the most and they're the people that are not having an actual say in any of that legislation so we thought thought it was really important to give them that ability.

0:13:02 Matt: It's great. What about curriculum? Is that something you've been to put some pressure on or to talk about?

0:13:08 Mari: Yet. It's definitely something that we are trying to address in the future. I think right now our role has very much been in starting these conversations on campus, bringing people to campus and hosting our events and bringing professors into these events and just getting the conversation going on campus. Um have not yet addressed curriculums um we do have a few things that we want to work on like bringing back um prison law class that no longer gets taught at georgetown um it's a class that essentially teaches um what it's like to bring litigation against prisons what rights people have when they're incarcerated, just like a breakdown of what to work in the criminal legal system, if that's the path that you want to take as a lawyer. And we just don't have that class anymore. So yes, yeah, we used to have the class. Couple of years ago, the professor that used to teach it no longer is at Georgetown. So I think they're just not prioritizing replacing the person um I think that's something that we're definitely going to put um on the administration to bring back grim

0:13:43 Thomas: You tell us about that? What is that one you

0:13:43 Matt: Great.

0:14:03 Thomas: They used to though? Interesting. That's really cool.

0:14:24 Matt: Was the mood around Georgetown around November 5th?

0:14:29 Mari: Um and on that is honestly how the coalition came about um think half the people didn't even show up I mean it was just a random wednesday we all still had class um had a morning class I was in legislation that morning and in federal courts right after that um that was interesting but um was sitting in my legislation class and I think everyone was kind of just hopeless and didn't really know what to do with themselves um the kind of person that just likes to get to work right away um and tries I stood, I just, too real. That is too real, but was quite literally sitting next to two people in my legislation class, one who was the current president of the ACLU chapter at Georgetown, and then the other on my other side who was vice president of If, When, How at Georgetown, which is the reproductive justice group, and I just texted the two of them, and said, how do y'all feel about bringing our organizations together to form a coalition and fight against this? Of them said, we're on board, let's do it. And honestly, it was quite literally just that text. And we from brought in other organizations, we brought into Black Law Students Association, Jewish students for justice um disabled law students um so it was it were able to bring together a lot of the mission driven and affinity groups on campus to get to work and do something about it this

0:15:02 Thomas: Get that sense. Yeah. Like, damn it, I'm going to start five more clubs about it.

0:15:58 Matt: This is months before the project we're going to talk about here. So what was the thinking at the time?

0:16:02 Mari: The thinking at the time was just that we wanted uh place for students to come to and feel like they could take action and do something um think initially it It was very much just like a proof of concept. Goal with it was to essentially show the students on campus that we can actually create change when we work together and actually do and execute the things that we want to do. And I feel like that has very much been shown that we come together, even if we're just law students, which I think a lot of people kind of get stuck in that where they're Like, we're not actually lawyers yet. We're just law students. But there's just so much power in coming together. Really was my goal with all of this.

0:16:45 Thomas: You're really the best kind of person. How do we clone you? Is that a question you've gotten before? That's amazing. No, your energy is incredible. It's so cool. It's really inspiring.

0:16:57 Mari: You. I mean, truly, quite literally, I really just like to do things. I don't like to sit still. So I just saw an opportunity to do something that I thought could be a positive thing to do. Listen,

0:17:09 Thomas: And you don't have enough going on.

0:17:11 Matt: And right? It's like you're going to class on this too.

0:17:14 Mari: I did go to class throughout all of this. I promise my GPA is fine.

0:17:16 Matt: All right. No doubt.

0:17:19 Thomas: Believe you.

0:17:19 Matt: No, I've been having worked with dozens of incredible law students over the years. Recognize that energy. I really love it. As somebody who's very close to being a lawyer, you start to see law firms within, I guess, the first month or so of the Trump administration. This is a sub -topic we've covered quite a lot on this show, but you're starting to see firms like Paul Weiss just giving in very quickly to the Trump administration. So how's that feeling when you see that?

0:17:42 Mari: My God, it is so disappointing, especially because they are some of the most powerful, richest people and organizations in the United States. And to have them just completely cave with very little pressure might I add um just like fold like a cheap lawn chair um so disappointing but also not that surprising um think what was surprising was when it was Paul Weiss and Skadden first just because a lot of more progressive public interest students tend to go towards those firms when they choose big law um I think for a lot of students that hit really hard for that reason I knew a lot of people who had offers at those firms now trying to figure out whether or not they were going to go there a year from now and trying to figure out you know are they gonna summer there now are they going to go back after they graduate so I I think it was really disappointing for folks, but at the same time, like knowing how a lot of these institutions function and what they prioritize in a lot of ways was not surprising.

0:18:52 Matt: Was big law something you've considered yourself?

0:18:56 Mari: No. And I think, well,

0:18:56 Thomas: I hope not. Yeah.

0:18:57 Matt: Didn't think so, but just checking.

0:19:00 Mari: I think I do get asked that because of what I did, but I think that's part of the reason why I was the one that felt comfortable doing it. Was not going to lose out on an employment opportunity that I didn't want in the first place, right?

0:19:13 Matt: Sure. Right.

0:19:14 Mari: There is a safety that I felt in being the person that did this initially. And I so thought about it from the perspective of the lawyer community in general. I think whether you're big law, whether you'RE public interest, a public defender, what have you, we all formed this legal community, and it felt like they were essentially leaving all of the rest of us behind. Mind well

0:19:37 Matt: No doubt. Out. So how'd I guess we haven't really, we're talking around it here, but you put together, started to put together a list of all these law firms that are being targeted and how they're responding so that students would have that information. How'd that get going.

0:19:48 Mari: We initially wanted to do it with um because of the response that some of the universities like columbia were having to like student protesters and other situations we we've divided the coalition into like working groups based on issue area um one of those is immigration and I sit on that one um we had essentially just called like an emergency emergency meeting to talk about what we wanted to do in response to what was happening at universities and we thought of this tracker like we thought that it would be really cool for prospective students but for students that go to universities to actually have an idea of like which universities were doing what and how were they responding and whether they were caving and whatnot so kind of started on that and then a couple of days later is when the Paul Wise news hit. We essentially just pivoted because I think maybe like two weeks after that, or maybe even just a week after that was the deadline for one else to submit their bids for their big law interviews. So we essentially saw an opportunity to pivot and kind of switch gears and use that that same concept of a tracker and of like transparency and accountability for that response. It was, I think we were just like in our little signal chat and said something like, Oh God, like what's happening, whatever. And then I just said like, we we're actually just started a tracker for universities. I'm going to convert it to law like BRB. Let me just do a quick little thing. Then And like, And like, I think I pasted in like maybe like five, 10 of the law firms added those little colored, color coded sections, and then just shared the sheet with a few people that then helped me fill the rest out. It was definitely a group effort. I think, I probably did like 5 % of the work on that spreadsheet. It was quite, it was quiet the big push because we knew that deadline was coming up and we wanted to release it in time for the bidding deadline.

0:21:52 Thomas: Right. Correct me if I'm wrong. I feel like this gotten lost in the shuffle a little bit. And, you know, who can blame anyone because the news cycle is just insane. But like the stuff over the Palestine protest was pretty crazy. And so much of that happened. I just make sure I remember. Right. Because, know, my you time is a little rough and my memory blends together. That was all before Trump was even in office. And it was this complete caving to the point where I remember there was, there, don't even know if we talked about this on the show, but there's a, I believe a federal judge who said that nobody no, should take students from certain schools, from certain law schools for clerkshops because of the nothing that they they were doing, the barely anything that they were doing in their opposition to what was going on. You saying like that's kind of the thing you were already working on at the time was more related to those issues and then you sort of pivoted?

0:22:40 Mari: Yeah so um and it was just because of like the timing and what we thought our role would be most useful for in that moment um summer project is essentially expanding the spreadsheet to include other types of entities it will include schools and part of that will be how they responded to protests um yeah absolutely I remember people were losing um offers because they like I one thing about supporting palestine it was absolutely ridiculous yeah

0:23:07 Thomas: I think there was a letter maybe that was of it, I think, like who signed to a letter.

0:23:10 Mari: Like people had signed their name yeah exactly yeah ridiculous absolutely ridiculous no

0:23:15 Matt: I'm looking, I actually look at the spreadsheet right now and we'll link to it for listeners. You've got 615 firms that you've accounted for and then quite a few more that haven't responded, but this a beyond Georgetown project at this point?

0:23:26 Mari: Actually still just georgetown students um it's really it's still just the coalition members we have like a core group of like dont know know, like up to 10 people that are kind of in charge of keeping it updated. Now, we're adding some new little features. We just got out of finals like a couple of weeks ago. We've been working on adding some news stuff, which will hopefully show up on the public tracker soon. On the back end, we have essentially like a duplicate that we like work on on a much more regular basis. And then we publish the public one. But we're trying to add like location and people have been emailing us about wanting to add um areas within which like the practice areas that some of these um firms like work in so that if people like if like a general counsel reached out to us and said I was looking for someone for like medical malpractice and I was wondering if you could like add a section where I could search it by practice area um that might might be something that we add although that might be a more of a long -term project

0:23:29 Matt: Very cool. That's That's great. Because I really appreciate this too, is that you're not just following the litigation. Of course, we've been trying on this show to follow the big firms that have either signed on to agreements or in in talks for agreements, but you've also got a section for complying in advance for people that have just... Firms that have preemptively removed DEI from their websites or stopped talking about inclusivity, right? And that seems like a lot of work.

0:24:47 Mari: Yes um thank god the internet archive exists because

0:24:50 Thomas: Yeah. No kidding. I use that all the time.

0:24:53 Mari: The way back machine is so useful um yeah we thought it was really important to include that because we think that okay while it's not the same thing as giving trump uh million dollars in pro bono, it is still impacting how you run your business and what you're saying your priorities are. And it's important, I think, for students who are deciding where to go to know that about the firms that they're looking at.

0:25:16 Matt: I'd want to know. And have you had any firms contact you asking you to change your mind or take them off? Or could you comment on that?

0:25:23 Mari: One has asks to change from caving to something else.

0:25:30 Matt: They know what they are.

0:25:31 Mari: Right. Had a bunch of people listed as no response, try to move to the green. Sometimes we're like, okay. And sometimes we'll like, that's not enough. If, for example, just someone that works at your firm says something about this, we don't think that that's enough. It has to be a firm statement. We have like certain criteria that we're using. I mean, it's not like opaque or anything like we want you to have made a statement, we want you to address the fact that we are living in an authoritarian state or signed on to one of the amicus briefs or had a letter of your own of some kind. Folks definitely reached out, trying to kind of go from no response to green. Then we've definitely had folks give us tips on what's been going on in some of the places. So we kind of keeping an eye on some of The Complying in Advance folks, and whether they go into CAVE, CAVE to the administration section, based on some like the reports from associates and others that are working there.

0:26:10 Thomas: I love it.

0:26:30 Matt: Well, I think I've got a new goal for our firm now. Easy enough. Just have to put out a letter. It's easy enough. I mean, certainly immigration firms are feeling it right now. I mean I'm sure you know about the executive order specifically targeting immigration lawyers. And I mean we're all just kind of waiting to see how that plays out. But the way that they're talking about us all is fraudsters and criminals and who knows.

0:26:49 Thomas: So what's been the response to this? How is this? Have you seen it function in the world? I mean, is it something that you intended to be more small scale for just kind of people at your school to use and reference or what, you know, how have you seen it proliferate and be effective?

0:27:04 Mari: Obviously a surprise that it got so big. It was definitely specifically for like 1Ls that were bidding for their big law bids. The response has been incredible. We got so much support, both both from students at Georgetown and outside of Georgetown who are using it essentially as a resource and have it just like bookmarked and like keep going back to it while they're looking for jobs. Also gotten a really, really positive response from faculty at Georgetown. They've been very supportive. It been referred to as a source of pride for Georgetown, which I think is really cool.

0:27:41 Mari: I think also from lawyers, and I think, folks, not just at the big law firms, but in general, I goal of having people just like recognize their power and their ability to make change, even if it's like a very small thing has really materialized in this because we're getting emails from lawyers saying, Thank you so much for doing this. This made me me realize that I can also do things that are going to help. Like this made me realize that I too also have power. All you did was make a spreadsheet and look at what the difference it made. So that, has been really cool. And I think the thing that has made me feel those warm, fuzzy feelings, um, the work that I'm doing. Um, it's definitely keeping me going.

0:28:22 Matt: Yeah. No, and seeing this kind of solidarity among law students, especially law students who are standing to make a bunch of money potentially, is really encouraging. And have you seen a sense, do you have any way to know how this has played out with the actual interviews?

0:28:33 Mari: A few things that I know. Know that people applying to the firms that are listed as caving to the administration were definitely lower this year. I do know that more folks are considering smaller firms and plaintiff's law firms specifically as a result. Definitely that like people are talking about it and that it's like something that they're looking to as a resource those are the things that I know I don't have actual numbers it's mostly things that I've heard from folks um I know there was like some information going around about the number of bids and stuff but all of that is not public so I

0:29:14 Matt: I've read somewhere you have a browser extension.

0:29:14 Thomas: About the haters? Okay. Okay.

0:29:15 Matt: Oh, good, yeah.

0:29:16 Thomas: What?

0:29:16 Matt: What about the haters? Let's start there.

0:29:17 Thomas: How much? How How many Fox News segments have you gotten about how this is a McCarthy -esque list of something or other?

0:29:25 Mari: I actually do not know of any

0:29:26 Thomas: Oh, well, that's sad. I was kind of hoping there were. It's

0:29:31 Mari: Mean of course of course we're the ones that are uh towards markarthism not them that's us of course naturally

0:29:38 Matt: Naturally. You not have a Federalist Society chapter to complain about you? Yeah.

0:29:42 Thomas: I'm sure they do.

0:29:43 Mari: Do we we definitely do um know they're they're pretty small I'm not gonna lie to you they're not the biggest um really do think that they mostly kind of just stick to themselves um active in the sense that they have an event at georgetown like every week or multiple times a week but um haven't really heard from them at least not directly and maybe maybe my friends are protecting me but I have personally not heard much from them I

0:30:10 Matt: But there hasn't been like a reactionary wave of people looking for interviews at these firms that you don't want.

0:30:14 Mari: Think so I don't I don' t think so So I think, I you know, obviously, like, I'm an abolitionist, and a lot of people in the coalition don't feel the same way about that. But I do Think that, generally speaking, if you go to law school, you might, I don't know, want rule of law. Don' t know, I just think so, you kno I do think that there is like a certain level of just like overlap of interests here for folks that might disagree on a lot of different things, but think that the legal link industry and lawyers in general should be able to represent anyone and everyone. I don't know. I mean, again, I personally have not seen a lot. Of negative stuff. Maybe I will after this, everyone has been very, very supportive. That's

0:30:37 Thomas: Possibly, hopefully. Yeah.

0:31:04 Matt: That's great.

0:31:05 Thomas: I guess Georgetown just sounds pretty cool. I don't know anything about law school. So that sounds I was I was thinking there would be more, you crusty old kind of whatever response to it. Is find any sort of generational difference in how people are thinking about abolition and how people are thinking About these things? Or is it just kind of, it seems like the environment you're in is, I don't know, maybe more progressive than I might have thought.

0:31:26 Mari: A good question. I do think that part part of it is the students and the communities that were built over the last couple of years because of the political moment that kind of have made Georgetown more receptive to something like this. At the end of the day, Georgetown is a private religious institution. Georgetown still does not recognize if, when, how the reproductive justice group as an official student organization on campus. They do recognize students for what, oh man, I forget what the anti -choice organization is called, but there's an anti -joice organization and they're recognize as an official student organization and funding. I think it really depends. I think the other thing is that while a religious organization, Georgetown is a Jesuit institution, and I think they do take some pride in student activism and social justice. And so sometimes it's actually useful for us to kind of remind them of that when we're doing stuff like this um to kind of go back to our motto um is uh is but the means justice is the end and our school loves to say that at every event and every graduation and every official thing that gets put out and so I think it's also um way for us to kindof hold them to account on that um being said I think the faculty is very very supportive there's definitely a variety variety um voices and viewpoints I mean something like abolition I think we only have a couple of professors that would identify as abolitionists um I do think that it is an environment that appreciates different viewpoints and freedom of speech and appreciates activism as a tool towards change yep

0:33:07 Matt: So it must have been very vindicating in the last few weeks to watch, so far, these firms that are challenged that are undefeated doing pretty well. Response, of course, as soon as this came out is, how could lawyers not fight this? Yeah, right, right.

0:33:17 Thomas: Could have predicted? Could Have predicted that the law would go that way? Not a bunch of big firm lawyers. They couldn't predict it, I guess. Can you blame them?

0:33:26 Mari: My god yeah and that's the most frustrating part and I think this is something that folks have been saying a lot, but it's worth repeating, which is that if you fold that quickly you're attacked, how can I trust you to protect my interests as your client?

0:33:39 Thomas: Well, also who is supposed to be the people who don't fold? Like you're the, you know, it's one thing if someone with no experience or resources or whatever, the law gets bullied by the legal system. I have every sympathy for that because it is, it sucks when when you're literally the most privileged in those terms, like the most privileged for, for you not to fight back is just pathetic. I I'm still mad about it. We've covered it five times. I'm Still mad about It.

0:34:01 Mari: No, I am with you. It is so frustrating. And I'm over here like, listen, I'm a law student. I have six figures of student debt, and I am being more brave than you right now come on unbelievable right

0:34:15 Thomas: Have six figures of a quarterly bonus that they need though. So yeah.

0:34:19 Mari: A couple of million dollars a year is not enough

0:34:26 Matt: So what are you doing this summer?

0:34:27 Mari: Working at the Georgetown Law Civil Rights Clinic and working on a bunch of cases challenging prison conditions and working with clients who we're facing, unfair conditions of all kinds, surveillance. It's been really awesome because I feel like I'm doing exactly the kind of work that I want to do.

0:34:46 Matt: And just have to ask every law student's favorite question. What's next?

0:34:50 Mari: I am a rising 3L, so I still have one year left. Am going to be a student attorney in the Juvenile Justice Clinic next year. So I'll be representing kids charged with crimes here in DC. See. And think hopefully after that, I am going to find a way to be on the other side of the V of police and prisons, whatever that looks like, if it's civil rights or in the criminal system, in criminal law. So we'll see. The market is not amazing right now. I don't know if you've heard, we'll See what that looks Like. I think it's important to me to find a job where I feel like I can hold powerful people, whether it's the government, institutions, the police, prisons accountable. And so whatever that looks like for me, we'll see.

0:35:40 Matt: You got a pretty good start here, I got to say, accountability -wise. This is awesome. Do have a lot of people listening that are thinking about law school or might be just starting themselves. What would you say to people right now that are thinking about getting into law school in this environment, in this moment.

0:35:43 Thomas: Kidding.

0:35:54 Mari: I think do it. You're thinking about it, do it, I think it was such a worthwhile move for me. Especially after having been in the real world for a while and kind of understanding kind of how these systems work together. Need more people who want to make transformative change and who are going to stick to that when they go to law school. I do think that lawyering doesn't really start and end with filing a lawsuit or going to court. It can look like a lot of different things and it's really just a tool. You can figure out what it looks like for you to use that tool for the the kind of change that you want to make. So if you're thinking about it, I say do it. Learn a lot, you get a lot of different experiences. I think it's a wholly unique experience to go to law school. At least for me, it was really worth it. And I was able to figure out what my role in all of this is. I

0:36:48 Thomas: Last question. What do you eat for breakfast? How do you get this energy? Is there a shake, a smoothie, a coffee of some kind? What is it?

0:36:58 Mari: Hate to answer this question because it's so bad and it's nothing.

0:37:02 Matt: Nothing. Oh, that's such bad advice.

0:37:04 Thomas: Well, there's where I've been going wrong. I've Been Eating Something. That's my problem. I got it. Okay. I'm doing the opposite.

0:37:09 Mari: I just have a cup of coffee in the morning and I don't really eat a meal until like 12 or 1 it's really bad it's not healthy do not take my advice well

0:37:17 Matt: Yeah. That's, you know, liability waiver.

0:37:18 Thomas: I need to take a nap after this interview. I don't know how you do it. I keep it up. Keep up the good work. Really, Is just so inspiring. Is there anywhere you want to send our listeners to check out more of your work or, you know, even maybe if they can contribute in any way or anything?

0:37:34 Mari: I think I would love it if folks checked out both the coalition for justice and abolition advocacy project um I'm so not active on Blue Sky but the links to both of those places live on my Blue Sky which is m latibash m -l -a -t -i -b -a s -h dot Blue Sky dot social so if folks want to find the links to the Linktrees for the Coalition and the Abolition Advocacy Project there. You do not have to be a Georgetown Law student to sign up for our newsletter and to follow us along on Instagram and the other work that we're doing. So follow along. We might have more stuff besides the spreadsheet coming out.

0:38:12 Matt: Awesome. I'll be sure to link to that and look forward to, welcome to come back and tell us how you're taking the system on.

0:38:17 Thomas: Please keep in touch. Absolutely. That's really cool to have you. And thanks so much for taking the time.

0:38:22 Mari: You for taking the time. Thank You so much for having me.

0:38:25 Clip: This podcast is a production of Opening Arguments Media, LLC, All Rights Reserved. It is produced and edited by Thomas Smith, who also provided the fabulous intro and outro music used with permission.