A 'Pay What You Can' Law Practice? Prosecutors Say That Encourages Crime.

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:58 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Opening Arguments. This is episode 1160. I'm your host, Thomas Smith, and just me for the intro today because, as promised at the very end of last episode, it's an interview. Matt's coming on. He'll be on after the break with our interviewee who is phenomenal. I am so excited to bring you this interview. So I'm traveling a little bit this week. I'm going to the Godawful Movies live show in Portland. A lot of fun. Maybe I'll even see some of you there. Who knows? Say hi if you happen to be there. But that's going to be a lot of fun. But as a result, no rapid response Friday. But we have, seriously, such a great interview. And this week, really, the theme was inspiring people in the law, people who are doing the good version of being a lawyer, the best version of law stuff. And I am so excited for you to hear this interview with Cheryl Weichel. And I don't even think I want to spoil too much of it. Like, I don'T think because Cheryl's going to go through her background and her background is part of why we're interviewing her. And so I don't want to spoil too much, but Cheryl is just, Cheryl's great people. Cheryl is doing great work and has such an interesting set of stories. And I'm just absolutely so happy for you to hear this interview. And I hope you found this week as inspiring as I did. I really truly did. Maybe my performance in T3B wasn't as inspired as the rest of the week, but in terms of the interviews, just two great folks who are doing the right work in the law, doing the good Thankless work. And I want to credit Matt absolutely for setting that example on the show. It's not something that was a part of the show previously before Matt. And I just really want to thank Matt for bringing this element for finding some of these interviews, Lydia also, but just really inspiring stuff. So with that said, I better just get to the break so that we can get to the interview with Cheryl because you're going to love it. All right. That's enough from me for now. Patreon .com slash law if you'd like to avoid Avoid this break, support the show, support stuff like this, inspiring interviews like this and all the stuff we do here and get the bonus stuff. All right. After this break we'll be on with Cheryl Weichel.

0:03:10 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:03:10 Matt: Our guest today is an attorney and activist and the author, most recently, of I Was an Abomination, a story of trans survival in conservative America. Happy to welcome Cheryl Wycoll.

0:03:19 Sheryl: Thank you so much for having me. This is truly an honor.

0:03:24 Thomas: Wow. Pleasure's ours.

0:03:25 Matt: Well, it's great to have you. We've been excited to talk to you for a while now, and I really want to be sure that we have some just regular attorneys doing regular stuff. But you're neither a regular attorney nor doing regular staff, but you are a real attorney doing great work on the ground, and that's a good place to start. So, just tell us a little bit about your background and what brought you to the law. I know it's a pretty big question. But kind of where you got this sense of justice, which seems to compel everything you do. I think you're pretty cool. I don't know.

0:03:49 Sheryl: So you make me sound much cooler than I am, I promise. I really am just a regular attorney. But so I run a name your own price law practice in Illinois. Illinois is one of 42 states that charges for and means tests the public defender. And how that's done varies from county to county. But a lot of attorneys don't necessarily even realize that you're right. Under Gideon are not necessarily a free lawyer. It's just a lawyer will be provided for you. So in a lot of Illinois counties, one of the things that you will hear is that if you want a public defender, you have to ask for one, and then you have apply, fill out an affidavit, a financial affidavia. And then a judge is going to determine whether they think that you qualify based on your income, whether you own your own home, factors like that, which means a lot people don't qualify for a public defender. And then there are a lot of people who qualify, but are told, well, subject to reallocation, or at the end, you may get a bill. And if you haven't paid the bill in a previous case, well you might not get one in this one. And what that means is a lot of people end up representing themselves, especially in downstate Illinois, who otherwise should be having an attorney. And so I take cases for people who cannot afford or otherwise do not qualify for the public defender and those fees that are charged for the public defender don't go to the public defender's offices. They, like with most states, they go to the state's general fund. It's a revenue generating metric. And I also do eviction defense, foreclosure defense, and family law cases because there's no right to counsel in any of those cases in Illinois either. Aside from a very small pilot program in Chicago, right to council in eviction cases, places. Everywhere else, there is no right to counsel. And that creates a massive gap, especially, again, downstate, because about two -thirds of Illinois attorneys practice in four counties. And there are 102 counties in the state.

0:05:49 Matt: Just for us coastal elites, I don'T really know much about Illinois. You said you're downstate. How far from Chicago is that? Just the only way I'll know.

0:05:55 Sheryl: So I'm actually, my wife and I live about an hour and a half north of the city, ironically enough, about half an hour from the Wisconsin border. But there are 102 counties in Illinois. Illinois is a big state. And the best way I can describe it is it's a little bit like New York upside down, where instead of having New York City in the bottom right -hand corner, you have Chicago in the top right - hand corner, if that makes sense. So outside of Chicago and what we call the collar counties, which are the counties immediately outside the city where most of the suburbs are, there's still a lot of people. That's still 60 % of Illinois' population, but two -thirds of Illinois lawyers only practice in Chicagoland. For example, there's one county where there's 1 public defender who is retiring and 30 total lawyers in the entire county, which sounds like a lot if you think it's a rural county, but there's still like 25 ,000 people in this county. There's a massive need for legal aid especially because once you go south of kankakee which is about an hour and a half south of the city and the legal aid agencies in illinois do a marvelous job but there isn't a whole lot of funding for legal Aid agencies south of The city and especially south of Kankake. And so you end up with large large populations of marginalized and disadvantaged people with basically no options when it comes to representation, sometimes even in criminal cases. I have received calls from people in the St. Louis suburbs in Illinois, in Peoria suburbs, in cities that are along the Indiana border, where they were told, well, we're not giving you a public defender because either you work full time or we don't have have any, but we're still going to prosecute you.

0:07:55 Thomas: We're still giving you a public prosecutor though, you know. Weird. Yeah. Wow. Oh, so housing's been really fair, I guess, like until then.

0:07:58 Sheryl: Yeah, exactly. Now I should say Illinois has been working on, and there's a bill in the Illinois state legislature that would create a state office of the public defender, which would be a huge boon to this particular issue because there are so many counties where the public defenders office is essentially at the discretion of the presiding judge. And what that means is they can just appoint whatever attorneys are available. And so they're all almost all in private practice. And when there aren't any attorneys on the list, well, that's the problem. And so there were, they are working on legislation to fix that problem, but it still would not address the, I would argue, even the larger issue of no attorneys available for eviction defense or foreclosure defense or family cases, which is a big problem. If you are talking about somebody who is especially in an abusive situation or a discriminatory situation. I represented somebody in a downstate courthouse

0:07:59 Matt: For free. Sure. Yeah.

0:08:59 Sheryl: Where I was told this is the first fair housing claim we have ever had in the history of this courthhouse.

0:09:10 Sheryl: Yeah, and then that's the thing, because you'll never convince me, no matter how worldly courthous is, that there has been no no fair housing violation that entire time. And so my thing is basically I go where I'm needed. I have a little car. I sign on IQ. I drive about 40, 45 ,000 miles a year all over the state and I go Where I'm Needed. Usually it's taking the cases that nobody else would take. And this started, I was the legal director at a legal aid agency and I loved that job. But when the pandemic pandemic hit, the donations dried up because no one was interested in, kind of understandably, people had bigger things to worry about. And so everybody got laid off. And I had all of these clients. And it wasn't like I could just, I was able to say, no, sorry, I can't represent you anymore. And they're still my clients. I still have to take care of them. So I said to most of them, pay me whatever you can. And that turned into the model.

0:10:08 Thomas: That's really nice because my experience with lawyers was pay me whatever you can't. And I was like, OK, yeah, that's.

0:10:16 Sheryl: It has been eye -opening. It It has been eye opening. And honestly, what's interesting is how many attorneys I have found who openly oppose the model, who have filed motions for sanctions or motions to disqualify me on the grounds that they pay whatever you can practice model is inherently unfair to everyone else. Yes.

0:10:31 Matt: Sanctions.

0:10:37 Thomas: Whoa. I completely naively misunderstood what you're saying. They're mad about your model.

0:10:42 Sheryl: I've had a couple of prosecutors argue that I incentivize crime by making it easier for people to get lawyers. I have had at least a dozen landlord lawyers argue that I incentivized people not paying their rent because it's easier for tenants to get representation now.

0:10:42 Thomas: What for why? Oh, my God.

0:11:05 Sheryl: But my favorite was I had an opposing counsel in a police misconduct case, and the opposing counsel argued that I was a threat to the institution of policing because I made it possible for people to bring claims against the police that would otherwise be brought. And therefore, as he put it, and this is as close to a direct quote as I can remember, she represents the dregs of society and trying to extort money from law enforcement.

0:11:22 Thomas: This is ridiculous. Yeah, exactly. I do know that when I decide whether I'm going to commit a crime, the first thing I do is flip open the yellow pages and I check, like, what are the rates, you know, for

0:11:38 Matt: Wow. Well, that's a compliment all around, like that you're such a threat. You're a one -woman threat to everything, apparently. Right.

0:11:52 Thomas: The lawyers that are going to defend me? And I'm like oh this one's a pretty good deal I think I will burn down that building or whatever you know that's definitely how my decision tree works so you know they have a point when you think about it no this is perfect is it oh wow huh

0:12:05 Sheryl: It is amazing seeing how upset people get about a name your own price practice model, especially from my perspective. And I know I'm hopelessly naive, but I really was somebody who thought that I was going to make the world a better place with a law degree. And granted, I went to law school for entirely the wrong reasons. I know I got sidetracked from your original question, so I'll get back to it. I went to law school because I thought it would make my mother forgive me for being trans. It did not work, but here I am with a law degree and I'm like, well, might as well do something cool with it. And so out of law school, I was working at a consumer rights firm downtown and I loved the work, But I was always arguing with my boss because I was always taking pro bono cases. And even then I'm just like, you know, but these people need help and we're doing great money wise. And we have plenty of billable hours so we can take more pro bono stuff. And that's how we ended up eventually getting into legal aid, which I adored. But legal aid has so many limitations. And it's not even that legal aid lawyers are doing anything wrong because I was one and I love legal aid. And if given the chance, I'd love to work at legal aid again. The biggest issue is there's so much red tape around it about where you can can practice and the kinds of clients you can take. The Legal Services Corporation, for example, has long had a rule on the books that if you take their money, you can't represent undocumented immigrants. And I'm serious. And if so, in fact, if you look at the on the LSC website, they say you cannot represent undocumented immigrants if you don't represent them. So one of the reasons that because people ask me, why don't you incorporate as a nonprofit and get an LSC grant? My response is usually, I'd love to. It would definitely help with the financial strain, but I won't turn immigrants away. And the reason is undocumented immigrants often need legal representation more than most people. And I'll give you a great example. I have represented in multiple... Well, I mean, yeah,

0:13:35 Thomas: I thought you were just gonna say gestures broadly at the country sure I'll give an example news that person

0:14:15 Sheryl: It's true, but you'd be surprised how often immigrants are scared to come to court or to report conditions in their apartments because their landlords threaten to call ICE on them if they do. And I've had more than one case where a landlord just overtly discriminated. I had one case Where a landlord insisted on forcing his immigrant tenants to do work on his building for free all night in addition to their day jobs unpaid and still pay the rent. And when they told him they couldn't keep doing this, he just called ICE on them.

0:14:59 Thomas: Should get whatever the people of New York want Luigi to get, is my view.

0:15:05 Matt: It's terrorism. Sexual terrorism.

0:15:05 Thomas: That should be, that's the actual, yeah. That's the actually criminal in our midst. That's great. That's amazing. Oh my god. Yeah.

0:15:09 Sheryl: It was actually, this is a terrible thing, it was actually pretty funny because when I talked with the clients, we file our lawsuit and this landlord calls me up because he's like, I don't need a lawyer. I'm just going to call her. And he gives me a piece of his mind. And finally, Finally, he says to me, you know, I'm just going to evict all of my tenants because of you. And I'm going to tell them the Fair Housing Act is now the the Sheryl Weichel law. And he left all of this on my voicemail. So I walk into court with this recording and get a TRO. And that's when he hires an attorney. And so it's really funny because it was the easiest TRO I've ever gotten in my life. Usually when you're saying, is this a discrimination case? The judge is like, well, how do you know they're going to do this awful thing? And I'm like, Well, here he is in his own words, Your Honor. And the judge looks at him and says, Really? You left a message on her machine?

0:15:38 Matt: Nice. Congrats. Wow.

0:15:57 Thomas: Yeah, I bet. Yeah. What a nice story of criminal people being dumb. That makes me feel feel better.

0:16:19 Matt: Yeah, I just wanted to ask you just a few logistical questions because we do have a lot of lawyers and people who want to be lawyers listening. And I did try for a little while having a pay -as -you -can kind of practice back when I started solo all the way back in 2009 when immigration law wasn't that hot, frankly. Then I realized I couldn't do it by myself off without staff and I needed to be able to pay my staff well, and I didn't have really other ways to subsidize it. And a lot of my clients just were not able to play. And I couldn't bring myself to charge for asylum cases and for deportation defense and some kind of stuff you're doing on the ground with housing and criminal defense. But do you have staff? How are you doing it? And what is kind of, how does the paid as you can thing work out on average? That helps.

0:16:57 Sheryl: So I have no staff. I won't hire somebody until I can pay a living wage.

0:17:00 Thomas: Matt, where would the staff be? Would they be in Cheryl's car with her just driving 45 ,000 miles? It just, uh, it would be like the Lincoln lawyer thing, I guess really that show. Yeah.

0:17:04 Matt: That's right. Yeah. You got to trade off drivers once in a while. Sometimes you must get tired. That's good.

0:17:11 Sheryl: I guess I should say, so my wife and I, we have two birds, two conures, and we call them the parrot legals. So I guess they count as staff and uh and every so often when I have a light day and only zoom court and it's a judge that I know really well one of them will sit on my shoulder especially if it's just for like a status and the judge will say hi which is delightful but aside from them I don't really have a staff it's all

0:17:22 Thomas: All right. That's delightful. Yeah. I mean, they're great transcriptionists kind of, no, not really. I was for a second. I thought there was a joke there, but not really take this down. Take this down?

0:17:41 Sheryl: Me you

0:17:48 Matt: And hunt -and -peck typing, that's not good.

0:17:50 Sheryl: Know they are adorable they are enjoyable except when I'm writing a motion, one of them lands on my keyboard and decides, you know, I think I'll add some of my own words, but they don't spell well. It's just me. I don't have a staff because I can't afford to pay anybody. It is very difficult to make this work. It has a lot of long days. I have a very understanding wife. And it's interesting because when we were dating, I was still at legal aid. And then I got laid off and we talked and I got a couple of really nice offers to do work at more traditional non -profits but I'm not sure I could have lived with myself just letting all of my clients they were good people and especially during the pandemic there was a surprising demand for eviction defense

0:18:37 Thomas: Was going to comment that earlier, like that's a heck of a time to not fund people who would help with evictions.

0:18:39 Sheryl: Yeah yes there were moratoriums but you would be surprised how many landlords were just like well we're just not going to honor that and filed

0:18:52 Thomas: You know, Cheryl, hate to quibble. I wouldn't be surprised, actually, at this point. You told me a landlord wanted to just commit a war crime because they were mad at you pretty much. So that wouldn't surprise me. Geez.

0:18:58 Sheryl: Anyway oh the stories that I have I have some amazing stories I should tell you some of them But the long and short of it is my wife was very understanding. She was like, if you want to do this, I support you. And we're very much paycheck to paycheck. She is the primary breadwinner. And this is very much a labor of love. It is the kind of work that I do because it has to be done. And the only way I can make this work is it's kind of a combination of the traditional consumer law model where every so often you get a contingency case that you win and it carries you the rest of the year. But that's pretty much it. And if those cases don't come in, you do what you can. And so I explain to every new client, these are the limitations to the name your own price practice model. So we don't have a bunch of experts on speed dial. We can't subsidize a bunch bunch of litigation beyond a certain point simply because these are the limitations. But this is the budget that we have and we'll do the best we can with what we've got. But the good news is sometimes just showing up and putting on a defense can be enough. And it is surprising how powerful that can be, especially when you're up against somebody who is used to being unopposed.

0:20:26 Thomas: You have any good examples of that or that you can talk about, I suppose? Wow.

0:20:29 Sheryl: Here is a great great example of why the right to counsel is important and what you can accomplish. This is a true story. I represented the quintessential little old lady. I know it sounds terrible, but it's true. She was really sweet, like everyone's grandma. You know the type. And she was living in her car. And what had happened was she owned a condo. Now, Illinois is one of those states that says that you can be evicted from your condo for nonpayment of assessments. Assessments. Problem was she was current on her assessments, but she was getting into a bit of a spat with the head of the condo association. Condo association decided to get rid of her. So they literally forged a bunch of documents, walked into court, said she was a tenant, a renter instead of a homeowner, and asked for an order of possession. She thought she wouldn't need a lawyer. She couldn't find a lawyer because she was, yes, she owned her condo, but she was on a fixed income, couldn't afford a lawyer, because she owned Her home, she didn't qualify for most legal aid. So she thought, I don't need a lawyer I'll just walk in with my deed. Problem was, like with most eviction courts across the country, if you don't have a lawyer to trial generally lasts, I mean, Matthew Desmond wrote about this in his work, but your trial generally lasts about two and a half minutes. And the question from the judge is usually just, how fast can you move out? She never got a chance to give her side of the story. So after the two and a half minute trial, she was never served with process. She only knew about it because the HOA was telling her they were going to evict her, and she walked out with the same deed that she walked in with, having never been able to show it to the judge. So the sheriff comes out and evicts her from a condo that she owns. Homes two years later

0:22:21 Thomas: What? What? That's the... So, sorry. Actually, this happened?

0:22:26 Sheryl: This happened yes yes

0:22:26 Thomas: Evicted from... And the two years later is disturbing. What happened in this two years? Oh my God. You already said that. I forgot. Sorry. Wow.

0:22:30 Sheryl: She lived in her car during which time the bank yeah they foreclose on her the bank forecloses on her. The HOA moves a new family into the into the home and they're collecting rent and what happens is we file a motion to vacate the judgment and a motion of quash service and this process server shows up for the hearing. Not only does he identified the wrong person, but he gets her race and age wrong. He identifies someone 40 years younger of a different race. And at that point, the judge is looking at this lawyer with just a horrified expression because at that moment, he's realizing for the first time what's actually been going on. So we vacate the eviction judgment. The HOA refuses to let her back in. So of course, petition for rule to show cause follows and a whole bunch of litigation. But the long and short of it is it was expensive in terms of time, but not necessarily in terms of outlay of money.

0:23:03 Thomas: Wow. Right. Yeah. You're not having to go through a bunch of like old cases to be like, hmm, like a whole bunch... And no insult to your work, but like, I think that's kind of what you're getting at. It's not like you're doing extensive research. It'S like, hey, another war criminal here is committing a horrible crime against an old lady. That's pretty much it, right? Sure. Yeah. Wow.

0:23:49 Sheryl: And it's not to say that there aren't some cases where there's really complicated legal stuff. There is. And sometimes, you know, you spend a whole day doing legal research. But a lot of this, it comes down to forcing the other side to actually follow the rules. And it is amazing how often there is an expectation that they just won't have to. I once won an eviction case on a directed verdict because it turned out that not only did my client not owe any rent, but the person who had served them notice of termination and identified themselves as this landlord's property manager was actually another tenant who agreed to lie in exchange for their rent arrearage being forgiven.

0:24:38 Thomas: Are the landlords okay? Can somebody check on the landlords? What's going on? Where are we getting them from? What dictatorship, what horrible, like awful hell on earth are we giving these landlords from? I don't understand it.

0:24:51 Sheryl: It is amazing how often you're in court and this is just what you're presented with. And so my job at the end of the day is just make sure that if they're going to win, that we put them to their proof. And yeah, it sounds basic and sometimes it is. And I'm not going to say that there aren't cases where, you know, you have to do a whole bunch of extra work because there are. So especially when you're going up against a large bank, they still drown you in a hundred thousand pages worth of paper. And when you are your whole staff, you still have to go through all that yourself. And that is really tedious. However, it is possible to do. It's not fun. And there's a lot of weeks where my wife is like, I know you can't take a day off, but can you take an hour off? But it is rewarding work and you get to meet some really cool people and you got to do a lot good. It is is frustrating, and it can be soul sucking. But at the same time, there are so many people who get better outcomes than they otherwise would. And every so often, you get a really good story out of it.

0:26:04 Thomas: At this point, have you trained the parrot to be like, we'll sleep when we're dead. Every time your wife I've asked you that. It'll save you a few minutes. And those minutes over time will maybe produce another, you know, victory for your clients.

0:26:18 Sheryl: You know, it's funny, because every so Often, the birds will fly over to me and just like like go to sleep in my hair while I'm working at night. And it's actually adorable when they do that. I love it so much. It sounds weird to say, but as stressful as this job can be and as long as the hours can be, and as much as there are certain times where I would not want to spend another minute in a Scion IQ, there are some really cool moments. Like when a client sends you a message thanking you for saving their home. That is like the coolest thing imaginable.

0:26:57 Thomas: I was gonna say, you've already told us enough. That's like more rewarding achievements than I've had in my whole life. Just in like a couple of stories you've had. So yeah, that trade -off of you're not making a lot of money, it sounds like, but it certainly sounds rewarding. And it's like, it's amazing that folks have you to defend them because this is just, first off, I wanted to say this a minute ago. Can we take the big old lever marked means testing and just shut that off like everywhere in the government? Because it's worthless. It's probably a net negative, like it costs more money. And all it is is trouble. And I just wish we were less obsessed with means testing everything at every level of government, apparently.

0:27:36 Sheryl: It is atrocious. To give you a couple of examples, I had a client who was turned down for the public defender because he had a full -time job. His job was in a factory. He was making 14 bucks an hour. And I'm just like, how is he supposed to pay 300 bucks an hours for a lawyer making 14? And then there was a client of mine who wasn't eligible for any kind of legal assistance program because he owned his home and the home was worth quite a bit. Problem was he had a million dollars in medical debt because his wife was really ill. So he took out every mortgage and loan imaginable to keep her alive, because of course he did. And so this was somebody who at one point had been well off, but now wasn't.

0:28:29 Sheryl: And there was no way he could have afforded it.

0:28:29 Thomas: And they don't even look at your net wealth, like your actual.

0:28:33 Sheryl: So the problem with a lot of these, because the public defender in Illinois is county by county, the judge evaluates your financial affidavit, and then makes a decision based on that. Same thing with your fee waivers. And legal aid agencies have their own standards. So it's so context dependent whether you can actually afford a lawyer. And so often I have seen people denied an attorney based on something that is completely devoid of that context where, yes, they make six figures, years, but they have six kids? Or yes, they own their home, but the house is underwater because they took out a second mortgage to pay for medical debt. Or yes. They have a lot of assets, but they're on a fixed income and they can't tap that. Maybe their house is in a land trust or Yeah, correct. Yeah, no, exactly. But that is advice that I've heard clients get given over and over again. Sell your house. But one of the worst parts is there are areas of Illinois, typically areas that are more disadvantaged or where more marginalized people live, where people or families have lived in the same house for sometimes multiple generations. Generations and there's no actual chain of title for those houses or the last couple of generations because nobody probated the estate. Nobody could afford a lawyer to probate the estate and so when somebody says sell your house, that's just not going to happen. There's so much work that would have to be done before you could get to that point. So even if sell your House to afford the lawyer was something that wasn't horrific advice, sometimes it's not even that simple. Especially we lawyers tend to think of the law as an orderly process where everybody follows the rules and things happen. But for a lot of marginalized

0:29:34 Thomas: Right. Sell your house to pay a legal bill one month. Interesting.

0:30:45 Sheryl: People, a lot of those rules are luxuries. It is easy to say you should probate your parent's estate when you have the money to go get a probate lawyer. And then the response is, well, a lot of probate lawyers will get paid out of the estate. But that requires somebody knowing that and going to go and get a probate lawyer or getting time off of work to go talk to a probate lawyer. It doesn't take much for that kind of thing to snowball. I've seen it over and over and over again. It's easy for me to say, well this should have been probated years ago, but that that doesn't help my clients. And there's so much that just sort of falls through the cracks. There's a saying that I love, it is expensive being poor.

0:31:31 Sheryl: And that gets proven over and over and over again. Sure.

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0:33:12 Matt: Cheryl, I've got to say, I have been sitting here as you've been talking, thinking about what you've gone through to get to the point where you're able to help the people you're talking about. And I think I want to talk about that for a minute. Just being somewhat familiar with the complaint that you had to file with the Illinois Attorney Registration Disciplinary Commission back in 2022. And you outlined, just to me, at least here living in Massachusetts, just a shocking range of discriminatory conduct, open slurs, and just all kinds of difficulty you faced as a trans lawyer from the courts, from opposing counsel, from clerks. And I don't want to dwell on this too much, but first of all, congratulations on the victory against, you know, in this getting a declaratory judgment or declaratory statement, I guess, from the bar saying that you can't discriminate against trans lawyers. I don't know why that needed to be said, but I'm glad it was said. But can you just kind of share a little about what this has been like?

0:34:02 Sheryl: And thank you very much. It was, it was not easy. So for people who are not aware, until 2022, the Illinois rules of professional conduct did not include a prohibition on discrimination on the basis of gender identity. And what made it worse was the only anti -discrimination provisions that were included only were triggered when a court of competent jurisdiction found that the attorney had discriminated against somebody. So to put it a different way, not only was there no stated prohibition on gender identity discrimination under any circumstances, but unless the attorney was sued for it and lost, the attorney could could discriminate on the basis of race or gender or ethnicity or national origin or disability too. And attorneys did. It was pretty rampant. And I very naively, when I became a lawyer, you talk to people about the best way to go about doing this when you're trans. I waited until I passed character and fitness. I called the Attorney Registration and Disciplinary Commission, which is the Illinois State Bar. And for people who are listening and wondering, the Illinois State Bar Association is actually not our state bar. It's a professional association. The ARDC is the state bar,

0:35:20 Thomas: Sorry, what's the ARDC? Is that

0:35:22 Sheryl: Attorney Registration and Disciplinary Commission. They are actually the folks that license you, that discipline you, or well, not in my case.

0:35:30 Thomas: Normal? I thought it was just the state. Is that a weird thing about your state or? Or, oh, my God.

0:35:34 Sheryl: So the ISBA is actually not a state agency. The ARTC is the agency that serves the function that in most states would be the state bar. Basically, they are the equivalent of the Massachusetts Board of Bar Examiners. And so I called them after I passed the bar, which in and of itself is a story, very briefly, because nothing about me becoming a lawyer was ever easy. Night before I'm supposed to take the bar exam, I have a bowel obstruction and get diagnosed with Crohn's disease. So when I called the bar examiners the next morning, I'm like, I am in the hospital. I am about to have surgery for a bowel obstruction, they were like, no, you're not. You overslept. Because who has a bowel obstruction right before the bar?

0:36:16 Thomas: Yeah, I'll be honest. I don't blame them. I don'T blame them entirely on this one. Oh, my god. Come on. Sorry, what? I don' t even... It was a better argument that you were incentivizing crime, honestly. I think that was actually a better argument. Yeah, well, plus that person already became trans in order to get fourth place at a swim meet. So, you know, they can't... You can only do it once, like... Okay, geez. Right. Sure.

0:36:18 Sheryl: Yeah, exactly. Because nothing about me becoming a lawyer could ever be easy. So anyway, eventually I take the bar exam without any bowel obstructions. I pass it. I call the ARDC and I'm like, hi, I'm trans. I would like to transition. I need to do do this within the rules? How do I do that? And the response I got was, you don't. And basically what I was told was that the ARDC has the right to regulate the gender identities of Illinois lawyers. And their concern was that if they allowed attorneys to be trans, then any attorney facing discipline would simply transition. And I said,

0:37:02 Matt: What? What year is this? Yeah. Yeah.

0:37:10 Sheryl: This was a fairly higher up at the agency. And I said, I don't think that an attorney facing discipline will make their first call to an endocrinologist. Being trans isn't easy. It's not like somebody wakes up in the morning and they're like, you know, it would be cool if I trans my gender today.

0:37:35 Sheryl: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yes. So we go back and forth for a while and for about six months. And so I decided I'm just going forward with everything else. I socially transitioned, started hormones, did everything else, and I should not have have waited until after I passed the bar anyway, because I stupidly thought, well, if I let them know, then they're going to help me do this within the rules. So I put everything medical off until after I pass the bar. So, I'm going through all of this stuff, and in the meantime, they're telling me, even after my name has been legally changed, that I have to continue to deadname myself in court, because they won't change my name on the master rules. So for six months, I did that, and then eventually I said, no, I's not going to do this anymore. If then go ahead and discipline me for using my legal name in court, you're willing to change the names of lawyers who get married, you can change my name. So eventually, there was a lawyer who got involved on my behalf at this point. And we eventually reached this sort of tacit agreement where they would not discipline me For practicing while trans, and I would not make a big deal about about the transphobia I was experiencing. And at the time, I thought that was a decent deal. And part of the reason that I thought it was a recent deal at the same time, was I was just sick of the constant stress of if I don't detonate myself, I'm going to lose my license. I was still a very new lawyer. And you know what it's like when you're a very young lawyer, and you're scared of your own shadow and the

0:39:10 Sheryl: Ground that the judges walk on. And I figured, okay, this is this sucks. Sucks but at least I'll be a lawyer this oh my god so this was 2017 2018 when we finally you know got to that point and it sucked it absolutely sucked in the intervening few years it just it just kept getting worse now what the ardc had told me was that I was the only trans lawyer in the the state, which wasn't remotely true.

0:39:18 Matt: What year yours this? Yeah, pretty

0:39:20 Thomas: 1948. Gonna call bullshit on that one.

0:39:47 Sheryl: Yeah, Illinois is not a small state. And it didn't take me long to figure out that I was not the only trans lawyer in the state. But most of the others were either closeted, because they didn't want to get the backlash that I got, or they just had never told the ARDC.

0:40:05 Thomas: Yeah, if their policy is you have to dead name yourself in court, how the hell do they even know? Like, I don't even understand how they would make that claim. Am I missing something? Is this like, was it Iran that said they don't have gay people? I can't remember. Was it Saudi Arabia? They're like, we don't we don'T have any of that here. It's like, yeah, sure. That's what this organization is like that level of advancement there. Great for non -binary folks.

0:40:14 Sheryl: And so a lot, what a lot of trans lawyers did was they They just registered using an initial instead of their name.

0:40:29 Matt: Much. Oh, wow.

0:40:32 Sheryl: And the conversations I was having with the ARDC just got more and more bizarre. There was a point at which I was told, well, we have a new option for registration. You can register as non -binary now. And I'm like, that's great. But not all trans people are non -binary. And even if you can register als non -binary, they still have to deadname themselves. So how does that help? And I was told, I'm not joking, well, we spoke with an employee at the ARDC who's gay, and he says it is the same thing. And that as long as you can register as non -binary, you don't need to change your name.

0:41:09 Thomas: Oh my God. Come on.

0:41:13 Sheryl: That's no, no. And now you're doing a disservice to non -binary people because you're saying, look how inclusive we're being to you while we're making you deadname yourself. Self. None of it was okay. And so every year, I would submit a proposed rule change that added gender identity to the list of prohibitions on discrimination, and would eliminate the need for judicial finding that discrimination had occurred, basically give us an actual anti -discrimination rule in Rule 8 .4. And every year it would get rejected. And then the third third year I proposed it, they just sat on it. They didn't reject it. They didn'T accept. They just sat. Yes. It was not academic. I had one judge stop a mediation in the middle, send everyone else home and then demand to conduct a genital inspection to determine

0:41:55 Matt: And just to be clear, I'm sorry, this rule is not academic for you because you're suffering from discrimination pretty much every day, as I understand it, as you're asking them for this.

0:42:12 Thomas: What?

0:42:12 Sheryl: If I was perpetrating a court on his court. I am not joking. I had a judge Sue Esponte enter summary judgment against my client because she determined that I was not being truthful and And therefore, entering summary judgment against my client was a sanction for me appearing in her courtroom as a gender identity other than that which I was assigned at birth. When I filed a motion to disqualify that judge for cause, the judge who heard that motion told me that they agreed with the first judge and asked if I file a motion disqualifying them too.

0:42:51 Thomas: I hope you took them up on that. Sorry. What in the Sam Alito did you just say? So wait, I want to make sure I get this right. The other side was like, it violates my religious liberty that you're trans and representing your your client? Is that, is that the argument? It's kind of telling on yourself where you're like, oh, I can't be civil. It's against my religion. Sorry. I just, I don't do civility.

0:42:52 Sheryl: I had an opposing counsel file a motion to disqualify me as counsel for, it was a landlord tenant, I was representing the tenant, the landlord's lawyer filed a motion to disqualified me on the grounds that me representing the tenant violated his right to religious liberty.

0:43:10 Matt: The opposing counsels, right, for disability? What? Because I have to be in the room with you? Oh, rules of civility. Wow. Wow.

0:43:17 Sheryl: And the motion was granted. Yes, yes. Because as the way he put it, the rules of civility would require him to use she, her pronouns with me, and he cannot do that consistent with his religion. Yes. Yes.

0:43:49 Sheryl: My favorite was the arbitration panel. So Cook County, because it's the largest unified court system in the country, has a mandatory arbitration program for certain cases. And so a lot of landlord tenant cases end up getting referred to arbitration on their way to trial. It's a way of weeding some cases out. And the arbitration panel concluded when I showed up for my client that because I'm trans, I was mentally ill, not competent to represent my my client, and therefore my client did not participate in the arbitration in good faith.

0:44:19 Matt: This is an arbitration panel run by lawyers? And you couldn't file a bar complaint at that point because there's no rule that says they can't discriminate on your identity.

0:44:27 Sheryl: And yes. So what happened is I wrote the ARDC a number of times. These are the things that are happening to me. And I would get a response. If you want to file a formal complaint, you can, but keep in mind, we will investigate everyone involved, including you. And this just continued. Sometimes I'd get lucky and there would be judges who would overtly

0:44:41 Thomas: What? And you're, like, I'm the one wearing the dress, so.

0:44:49 Sheryl: Say that that kind of of stuff wasn't allowed in their courtroom. And then sometimes there would be judges who were eager. I had one judge basically tell me when I corrected him on how to refer to me, he said, I'm the one wearing the robe. Your gender is what I say it is.

0:45:10 Sheryl: It was just overt. And And then the last straw came when, yeah,

0:45:18 Thomas: Sorry, just, just to put a light to how just stupid this transphobia is, just imagine if that were a cis person. Like, just reimagine if you were cis. Or if I, like Thomas is, I am up And the judge is like, well, Thomas, female, you know, she over there. And I said, oh, I'm a man. I'm wearing the robes. Like, imagine how laugh out loud silly that would be. Hard enough. Yeah.

0:45:27 Matt: Yeah. Yeah. God. Just to be a lawyer is hard. Just walking in the door.

0:45:39 Sheryl: That's exactly, that is, that that's exactly what was happening. And it got to the point where it felt like every single case became about my gender identity instead of the facts. And I got really sick of walking into court and before we can get to the merits of anything, having to argue about me, it was humiliating, but it was also exhausting. It's very difficult to try a case when, yeah, it's very hard. So the final straw

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0:46:19 Sheryl: Came when a circuit clerk in a county in the western part of the state started recording all of my appearances under my dead name. And this is years after I've legally changed my name. There is no way that they don't know. I go in and I ask them to stop. The answer is no. So I sued the clerk. And first time up in front of the court, the judge advised the clerk's attorney that they expected this to be fixed right away. And it was. And that was when it occurred to me, I'm a lawyer. I'm a trial lawyer at that. And if I can't get the rule changed the traditional way, maybe this is the way to do it instead. And I spent about a month looking for a lawyer, but to represent me because you know what they say about lawyers who represent themselves. But you know, suing the ARDC is not necessarily a great career move. So a lot of lawyers were like, you know, I understand why you're going to do it, but I'm not going to represent you in doing it. So I talked to my wife and she has been so amazing. When I say I hit the jackpot with my wife, I really, really mean it because she was like, yeah, you want to sue the people who control your license? Yeah, go ahead. She would have been well within her rights to be like, are you sure that's a good idea? But she recognized what we were trying to do. So I sued the ARDC. And they, of course, argued at first they were immune from suit. And I argued that because it is a constitutional issue, that trumps their immunity. So it was litigated in front of the circuit court in Cook County in front of the Illinois Supreme Court. What happened was I filed first in the Circuit Court of Cook County. The ARDC moved to dismiss saying that the correct venue was actually a writ of mandamus before the Illinois Supreme Court, so the judge dismissed it and said, okay, go file a writ of mandamus, so he did that. The ARDC argued in front of the Illinois Supreme Courts that a writ of mandamus is not the correct venue. I should have filed a complaint in the circuit court, and so I'm getting a little bit of deja vu. So the Illinois Supreme Court dismissed it and told me to go back to the circuit court. And finally, I'm like, I'm sick of this. So I filed in the federal court in the Northern District. And at that point, because I'm, like, I have nothing left to lose, I sued all of the individual members of the Illinois Supreme Court as well. And the reason I did that is ARDC is an organ of the Supreme Court. And so in theory, they would have the authority to order the ARDC to do something. It was at that point when we actually started to make some progress there isn't honestly I had no idea the right way to go about doing this and I'm not afraid to admit that

0:46:31 Thomas: Oh, for God. Yikes. Oh, wow. Good move. Yeah. It's not like there's a manual for this kind of thing, it seems like. I mean, you're in a really unique state and situation, it sounds like. Is that right? Mm -hmm.

0:49:23 Sheryl: Because first of all I'm doing the worst thing possible in representing myself which I do not recommend anybody do for obvious reasons and I felt I did it because I had no other choice and there was a massive amount of career risk obviously and during the federal court portion of the case They actually posted on their website that I was under investigation for misconduct for suing them. And when the federal judge who was who was hearing the case asked them what misconduct it was, they finally chalked it up to an administrative error. And there was no actual investigation at all.

0:50:07 Matt: We lied, actually. Wow.

0:50:09 Thomas: No, Matt. They made an error.

0:50:11 Matt: Right. Of course. Of course. What am I saying? Wow.

0:50:14 Sheryl: But at the end of the day, we won. And the thing is, I was representing myself, but I didn't do it alone. Equality Illinois got involved. And even though they couldn't represent me, they did a bunch of lobbying on my behalf. National Lawyers Guild was fantastic. They did so much great work talking to other lawyers and letting the ARDC know that a lot of lawyers in Illinois had a problem with this. And eventually when Equality Illinois introduced a proposed rule change that was almost verbatim the one I'd been introducing for years all of a sudden it had teeth behind it and they saw the writing on the wall and that's when they agreed to a stipulation that amounted to the prohibition on sex discrimination in the rule applies to gender identity

0:51:05 Thomas: Hmm was that so hard gosh no I don't not for you I mean for them like it was hard for you yeah it's just insane I mean go ahead matt sorry well not for nothing I hate that this even met like why did we even need Bostock like I just feel what in the world I'm sorry look it isn't cool to admit this and all the incentives go against this I'm genuinely surprised by the level of discrimination you faced as a trans person. Like I genuinely am. I like, I, and I'm not like super optimistic about this country and where we are. And I'm so sorry for laughing at how absurd these people are, but it's genuinely shocking. And that shock is like, it's funny how dumb they are, But you're not in Alabama. You know, you're in Illinois. I just, I'm genuinely surprised that it was this level of bad, not that you're facing discrimination, but that it was this outright that it was this just persistent and that it took this effort like I am just so sorry that you had to go through that and I also apologize for laughing so much but these people are just they're so they're so dumb it's hard not to laugh but show what a thing you've gone through like I just can't even I don't even have words like this is crazy

0:51:08 Sheryl: You know that was for a year year of litigation, I told them, I'll pay your court costs. Hell, put me on a payment plan. I'll pay your attorney fees. This is all I'm asking for. And every time they told me no, every time they told no.

0:51:08 Matt: Apparently. I was going to ask if Bostock was a factor in this, right? At some point there was a timing on this, worked out with Bostack. Yeah.

0:51:30 Sheryl: Yes, Bostock was a factor. And it was what I kept citing because I said that if you are saying that the current rule does not prohibit gender identity discrimination, then you are interpreting the rule directly contrary to Bostack.

0:51:44 Matt: Yeah, to Neil Gorsuch, you're right in the face. Oh, this is your employment. This is your livelihood.

0:51:45 Sheryl: And the argument that they made was that that this was a different context, that Bostock was limited to its facts and applied only to employers.

0:51:59 Matt: Right. I agree. I want to

0:52:55 Sheryl: Honestly, it was worth it. I mean, I'm not going to lie. There was a point around 2021 where I'd had a particularly bad day. And I came home and I was just ready to quit. And I actually, I started applying to social work schools. I was like, I am done. Then I was in a a support group for trans people. It was online because the pandemic still, and I was in a support group, trans people, and there was a trans kid in the support group who wanted to grow up to be a lawyer. And I was thinking to myself, if I don't do this, then the kids are going to have to go through this. And that's why I did it. I wish I could say, you know, that it was like, oh, I was was so brave. And I really wasn't. This was because I didn't want the kids to have to go through this because trans kids go through so much as it is in this country. And I didn't want a trans kids experience as a lawyer to be this.

0:54:01 Matt: Believe that the profession can be more professional. And again, I'm in Massachusetts, and I'm not saying a lot of what you've described here I could totally see happening in parts of Massachusetts, even around Boston. But I'd also want to belief that you would have some solidarity, and then you'd have people standing up for you if they see something like that. Did you have allies in the moment that would notice these things and say something?

0:54:19 Sheryl: You know, Equality Illinois was great the entire time. And NLG is always wonderful. But in the courtrooms, it was hard. You You know, it's interesting. I would have some attorneys pull me aside, tell me they were themselves closeted and that they thought what I was doing was really cool. But the overall vibe, for lack of a better term, was so hostile in a lot of courtrooms that I couldn't blame them for not. Because what they were seeing, I mean, it is easy enough to get involved when you see something like when it's opposing counsel who is being a jerk. When it's the judge and when you're seeing stuff like the judge sui sponte ruling against you, you have a client to look out for. And I couldn't really begrudge them that. And that was why nothing but a rule change was going to work. And what is great is a month after the stipulation, they formally changed the the rule. And as part of that formal rule change, they eliminated the judicial finding requirement. So for the first time, Illinois had a real anti -discrimination rule.

0:55:02 Thomas: Come

0:55:34 Matt: For everybody.

0:55:34 Sheryl: And then I think it was last year, the Illinois Rules of Professional Conduct formally incorporated the Illinois Human Rights Act, which is our state anti - discrimination law. And now we have an anti -discrimination rule with teeth and the ARDC has a CLE on these rule changes that of course does not mention me or the lawsuit at all but the good news is it's out there and they are now for the first time as part of CLE saying to lawyers you have to use the pronouns a name that a person gives you. And last year, for the first time, the ARDC took attorneys dead names off of the master role on the website. Until last year. They had all the trans lawyers dead names up there. Now they don't. So we are making progress. It is slow and it is halting. And there are still attorneys, especially since November, who are trying to see how far they can can go. I had last week an attorney cite Trump's anti -trans executive order on the military to argue that I was not trustworthy to draft an order, because here in Illinois, you know, the attorneys still draft the orders, but

0:56:50 Thomas: On oh yeah Yeah. Yeah.

0:56:50 Sheryl: The judge just completely ignored him. That was nice to see. I actually was downstate about three months ago, and a judge saw me in the courtroom courtroom and said, oh, I just took the training on that thing you did. I have a bunch of name changes today, and I'm not going to get it all right, but I really appreciate what you're trying to do, and I'm going to do my best. And that was actually really heartwarming. I was never like, oh, you have to be perfect first time out. But seeing judges who are legitimately, you know, making the effort, that was really, really nice to see. It's been really nice Nice to see. So as much as it really did suck, and there were some times where I was really despairing. The truth of the matter is, there were also a couple of judges who were really great. There were some people who were able to give me some off the record pointers, if that makes sense. And the response after the case was over has just really been great because it used to be I was the only trans lawyer that most people in any courthouse knew. And now I'm seeing more and more openly trans lawyers and it is wonderful and it is wonderful. And I love it so much and I did a CLE on the new rule for a group earlier this year and it was called I just want trans kids to grow up to be lawyers and I feel like now at least in Illinois they can. Not going to be easy but at least now they'll be protected.

0:58:34 Matt: This has been fantastic to talk to you, obviously. And you were an example in so many different directions of what one person, one lawyer can do. And I got to tell you, I'm usually very suspicious of anybody under, I don't know, let's say 40 who writes a memoir. But you have written one, and now I want to read it. I haven't had a chance yet. It's called I Was an Abomination, a Story of Trans Survival on conservative America. We're running out of time here, but what do you want people to know about the book?

0:58:40 Thomas: I'm kidding. Yeah, yeah.

0:58:57 Sheryl: So I I will be honest with you. I am also suspicious of anyone under 40 who writes a memoir. And my introduction is all about why I didn't want to write a memoir, but I wrote it anyway. And very simply, I was the trans kid that everyone says does not exist. And the reason I thought it was important to write is because I was homeschooled. My parents were that conservative family who were were terrified that public schools would turn their kid gay. Well, it turns out that even if you homeschool your kid and keep your kid away from all of those awful popular culture influences and keep them out of school, she'll still turn out to be trans. And granted, that's not going to be every trans person's journey. It is just as valid, you know, to know you're trans at eight as 80. There is no one way to do this. However, the reason I wrote this is because I am literally living proof that the idea of being trans as a social contagion in kids is wrong. And I know that for a fact, because when I was eight years old, I went over to my mom, having never heard the word transgender, with a doll that I made of myself as a girl and said, Mommy, there's been a a terrible mistake. Can you fix me? And a couple of years of conversion therapy later, you know, still trans. I felt it was important, especially now for people to know, first of all, that being a trans kid, isn't just possible. It's normal and completely independent of outside influences. And number two, that Being a Trans Kid isn't a bad outcome. The good outcome for a trans kid is becoming a trans adult. And as much as my journey has been, you know, little bumpy at times, I wouldn't trade it for anything. I have a great life. I'm married to the love of my life. I have awesome friends. I work that matters. And I feel like if we are framing the quote unquote trans kid debate as something to be avoided as transness is something is a bad outcome in kids. Transness is the kind of thing that you catch from someone else not only is that prejudice it's just factually wrong and so if somebody can read my story and realize oh maybe the trans kid in my life is just trans because they are and there's nothing wrong with that then it will have served its purpose I don't want it to be trauma porn but I do want people to know that trying to make a trans kid desist or trying to make a trans kid into a cis kid is torture. Trans kids are trans and you should just let them be. And the only thing that's going to happen is we're going to grow up and maybe we'll even become lawyers.

0:59:07 Matt: Fair.

1:01:53 Thomas: God forbid. But yeah, no, I'm just kidding. Absolutely. No, thank you so much. This time flew by. I cannot believe it. Cheryl, seriously, an absolute pleasure. People should check out the book. Hey, is there an audio book by chance? Absolutely. Is there anywhere else you want to send people and anywhere where folks can support what you're doing in any way?

1:01:56 Sheryl: So hopefully there will be, it depends on the demand for the paperback and the Kindle version, but it's available on Apple and it is available on Amazon, both in digital versions and in paperback. And hopefully there won't be a hard cover at some point.

1:01:57 Matt: That's great. Yeah. We'll look to it. Awesome.

1:02:25 Sheryl: Oh, I would appreciate that. Thank you. So I am on both threads and blue sky under the leftist lawyer. That's my handle leftist, like, you know, left of center politically and lawyer like job. My name is Cheryl Weichel and you can look me up online with my website, which is www .weichellaw .com. And if you have questions, you can email me at Cheryl at weichelllaw .com That's Cheryl with an S, not a C. I obviously cannot give legal advice, especially to people outside Illinois, unless you retain me, you know, then all the necessary disclaimers. But I am always happy to talk to fellow trans people about, you know, navigating the system as a trans person. And if you are in Illinois and need legal representation, and you can't afford a lawyer, reach out to me and I am happy to see what I can do. Thank you so much for having me. It's really an honor.

1:03:13 Thomas: Thank you so Thank you so much. Yeah, seriously. What a pleasure. And keep up the great work.

1:03:15 Matt: Yeah, and take care of yourself.

1:03:47 Thomas: Can you shut that parrot legal up? No, I'm just kidding.

1:03:51 Sheryl: I'm so sorry about that. I think they're introducing themselves.

1:03:54 Matt: An urgent call or something?

1:03:55 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah exactly. Client emergency. What in the Sam Alito did you just say?