Lively v. Baldoni 8 - Jonesin' for Breach of Contract Damages

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:26 Thomas: And welcome to Gavel Gavel. This is episode 8 of Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni. I'm Thomas Smith. That over there is Lydia Smith. How you doing?

0:00:33 Lydia: Hello. I'm doing pretty well. Excited to dive back into this thing and keep working through it.

0:00:39 Thomas: Ready to talk about feminist icon Stephanie Jones.

0:00:43 Lydia: Rise up.

0:00:45 Thomas: We're continuing our look into what is a surprisingly important bit of this that has flown a little under the radar, which And John does. I don't know every time.

0:00:52 Lydia: John

0:01:01 Thomas: John does one through 10.

0:01:01 Lydia: Does what?

0:01:04 Thomas: Does John do? Tell us.

0:01:06 Lydia: Don't forget, as we roll through this, we're going to be talking to a lawyer or two and are.

0:01:11 Thomas: Building a strong Rolodex of lawyers like we already had some, but this is great. We're we've tried to do is we've talked to a lot of lawyers who are like just regular lawyers. And I think that's really important because a big difference between like this lawyer has the channel where they've covered this trial and it's a bit, you

0:01:27 Lydia: Specifically, like a content creator that's gone to law school.

0:01:31 Thomas: Exactly. And it doesn't mean they're always wrong, per se. But I have noticed that a lot of tailoring to their audience. Like there's I've seen videos that don't do well and then they have to go back to the red meat of videos that do do. And I worry about that, whereas we've tried to find honestly, more just like normal lawyers who just do law stuff and are not like time content creators.

0:01:48 Thomas: Again, nothing, nothing against them. But in these instances when it's so polarized and people often have an agenda and an audience they're trying to pander to. Think that's something I want to emphasize that we're trying whatever they say on our show is not going to make or break like their content creation empire, because that's not you know what I mean? So I feel like it's a that. I want to get an objective view. When one side has a point, I I want know that. When the other side has point, wanna know that, so. We're excited for that, but we're first gonna go through all the facts in their entirety, just Lydia and I and you.

0:02:24 Thomas: As alleged. Yeah, sorry, I did mean alleged facts because, boy, there's

0:02:24 Lydia: As by Stephanie Jones. Little main character syndrome -y going on here.

0:02:31 Thomas: That's a good word for it. We'll take our break and get right on back to it. Hey, please support the show. Patreon .com slash gavel pod. You like the show, if you want to hear bonus extras, and there's lots of them in the back catalog, check it out. You Don't Have to Hear Ads. That's the best part, really.

0:02:47 Lydia: Mean like this one?

0:02:51 Thomas: What one? I didn't... Did you do an ad? What are you talking about? Don't control over that. You actually do, yeah.

0:02:53 Lydia: No, Yeah, I do.

0:03:06 Thomas: So when we last left our main character, our very main character of every story, there had been a very interesting text where Jamie Heath was like, hey, I don't know who this Jones works is, which is just really incriminating. Again, we are taking taking sides before knowing anything. That's not the same as reading and forming an opinion, which I form the opinion that Stephanie Jones is, you not, she doesn't necessarily matter.

0:03:10 Lydia: The hero of the story. She also might have some points.

0:03:34 Thomas: Yeah. And it's like, if two dirt bags, just, just as a hypothetical, I'm not calling anyone here a dirt bag necessarily, but if dirt bag A and dirt bag B have a contract and they both kind of suck. That doesn't give dirt bag B the license to totally fuck over dirt bag A. You don't matter. You have to focus on what the facts are.

0:03:49 Lydia: All dirtbags being equal.

0:03:55 Thomas: Hashtag all dirt bags matter. Honestly, like seemed like a very damning text. That last last one we read where Jamie Heath is like, I don't want to hear from this quote -unquote Jones works. Like, I didn't want hear from them when that's the entity they're contracted with.

0:04:06 Lydia: Well, that that's their public relations firm. And he says that she's undermining their public relationships. Like, yeah,

0:04:14 Thomas: That's a great point. We didn't even necessarily say that. Yeah. Undermining their public relations checks notes, the public relations. And I mean, in terms of just pure, breach type talk, that seems bad. Like, I mean. Well, be one of the first things we'll run by a lawyer. Just in terms we get to Abel and Nathan drive a wedge between Jones and Baldoni and attack Jones's reputation in the press. Again, a little main character here, because in the timeline, we're still in like August 10th, which this even make sense.

0:04:45 Lydia: Was the anonymous website, but really, was pretty much it.

0:04:49 Thomas: You hey, if it ends up shaking out that Jones can prove they're behind the anonymous website, then fucking A, like, yeah, that's bad. But you know, emotional and loaded here. At the same time as pandering to Baldoni and Heath's desire to discredit Lively, Abel and Nathan were also furthering their own profit -driven agenda to attack and disparage Jones, using many of the same tactics that they were using against Lively in order to eliminate Jones as a competitor and siphon away her clients for themselves. Any proof of that, but... just kind of an assertion. This read this because this was the first thing that struck me when I went through this. Ironically, Abel and Nathan recognized that their success on both fronts reflected a societal desire to tear down successful women like Lively and Jones, but they remained undeterred in their agenda.

0:05:36 Lydia: Part.

0:05:37 Thomas: And Lively's complaint, yeah, in part that Melissa Nathan to Jennifer Abel, it actually sad because it just shows you have people really want to hate on women,

0:05:46 Lydia: That's all that we saw in Lively's complaint. Now we're getting Jennifer Abel's responses here where she responds to Melissa Nathan. I know it is sad, but then like, don't be a cunt.

0:05:56 Thomas: Like, it's really funny for Jones to be like, yeah. They're they're trashing successful heroes of women like me and Blake Lively. It's like that's just about Blake Lively. Right. I mean, I can't imagine this is August 10th. What?

0:06:07 Lydia: Mean, I think like Stephanie Jones reading, like, Don't Be a Cunt and her like being like, oh, my God, they're talking about me. It's like a really interesting, like a thought experiment for self -awareness.

0:06:13 Thomas: They're talking about me. Yikes. Yipes. Right. You said it, not me. I don't know. I did notice the first time I was like, oh, she's just blatantly trying to steal that. Text for her, idea you of it being like, oh, it's just sad. People are only tearing down Seve Jones because they hate women or whatever. Upon rereading it for the fifth time, I guess they were a little careful in the language being that their success on both fronts reflected a societal desire to tear down successful women like Lively and Jones. THINK for Jones, she'S really trying to hitch herself to this campaign against blake lively because she it seems like she can improve the Blake Lively one is artificial therefore then she also gets to be blameless and it's actually artificial against her and I

0:06:59 Lydia: Try And and like turn the tide on some of that negative press that she was getting in like that expose and stuff. Yeah,

0:07:04 Thomas: And so I really think trying to, she's really just trying to trash Abel and Nathan as much as possible to discredit them, which like, I mean she has the right to do that in her complaint. I think a lot of this stuff is not like, entirely relevant to the legal causes of action, but you that is what it is. And we'll see if the other side responds in kind.

0:07:21 Lydia: Yeah I know, I was just thinking about like of these texts coming through. Will that mean for the not like reputation as a person, but like your reputation in the industry, like Jennifer Abel and Melissa Nathan and stuff like Jennifer Abels texts are they're so messy. They're so I crazy to me. This stuff coming out, I like would be terrified no one would want to work with me ever again if I wrote stuff like this.

0:07:36 Thomas: She doesn't seem great. Well, the only upside is no one reads. So that's Here's a weird one. Abel's trashing of women even extended to Nathan herself, whom she had privately badmouthed just months before cynically hitching her star to Nathan to steal from Jones and says from blank.

0:07:57 Lydia: This is April 5th, it looks like.

0:07:59 Thomas: And we're going way back to from redacted to Jennifer Able. MN, meaning Melissa Nathan, kind of talks out both sides of her mouth. Then Abel back to whoever that is. You think?

0:08:09 Lydia: Then it continues. She's a piece of shit.

0:08:12 Thomas: And that's still Abel. Abel saying that.

0:08:14 Lydia: Honestly I used to like her and now I see her for how she really is.

0:08:17 Thomas: Huh. What would this be about? When did, so in April. Did Abel interact with Melissa Nathan? The hell could this be about?

0:08:27 Lydia: I don't totally totally know, because this is before Wayfair and Baldoni retained the agency group and Melissa Nathan. That was July 31st, 2024.

0:08:35 Thomas: Way Way before.

0:08:36 Lydia: Jones says in her lawsuit, what we read earlier, that they had a mutual client and some struggles there back in 2023. it was the end of 2023. And this is like a few months after that they're chatting about it. But it's really not clear.

0:08:48 Thomas: Who knows? It's kind of odd. Yeah I wonder if we'll find out. About that but yeah I honestly used to like her and now I see her for how she really is or seems to just tell what whoever what they want to hear That's my impression of Abel pretty strongly. Used to like her, and now I see her for how she really is. I don't know. It sounds kind of fake to me. Who knows? We'll see. Now we get into some, yeah, some good evidence here. So from paragraph 64, working together Nathan and Abel's stated goal in all of this was to position themselves to be able to steal Wayfair, Baldoni, and other clients from Jonesworks to the new firm Abel was planning to form so that those clients could then be serviced jointly by both Abel's and Nathan's new firms instead of Jonesworks. And this is a text, cites a text from Melissa Nathan to Jennifer Abel on 29th, which

0:08:58 Lydia: Me too. Yeah? Two days before she was retained by Wayfair and Baldoni, by the way. Keep that in mind. Mm hmm.

0:09:37 Thomas: That's interesting. And she says, I know. And once you are gone, we don't have what that's responding to, but I know and once you're gone, We will be on accounts together and make really good money and be happy. Then it says Abel and Nathan explicitly discuss their plan to steal Wayfarer and it cites another text, but this is over week later, almost two weeks later in August 9th. Just keep it steering that way. And you take this fucking client and never talk to her again, I swear to God. Boy, maybe don't text that on your work phone, on your Jonesworks work phone. You know, it's contract breachmanship. If you're going to breach a contract, don't do it that way, but then the response from Abel and Nathan is exactly.

0:10:08 Lydia: I don't notably, this I don't think necessarily has any like bearing on Stephanie Jones's claims or anything, but just to kind of call it out, are no other clients listed in this complaint. It's just Wayfair and Justin Baldoni. So as far as we know, those are the only clients that were impacted by, you know, this move that were previously signed to JonesWorks specifically and moved over with Jennifer Abel.

0:10:42 Thomas: I was noticing that, too, because the language here was like she was going to steal all my clients and all my whatever. So I don't yeah, I don' know how much that'll be substantiated. Then it goes on. This is some, again, this is some good evidence for Jones's claims. Nathan made plain, really good money was the motivating force behind the scheme, not any special affection for Baldoni or Wayfair. Well, this

0:11:03 Lydia: Oh, my God. Yeah, this is so embarrassing.

0:11:07 Thomas: Abel's candid communications outside of Baldoni and Heath's view made clear that at the same time as she was working to salvage Baldoni's reputation and steal his business, she actually held Baldoni personally in extremely low regard. For example, when a colleague described an article about a kissing scene between Baldoni in Lively as so gross, Able responded. Now, that's interesting. So what's the date on this? This is January 13th, 2024. So just after filming was resumed and it's Jennifer Abel to somebody and says a colleague. So cringy. Then she says again, his face. Then that person replies, Blake was probably grossed out, too.

0:11:43 Lydia: Abel responds. And filed a cease and desist.

0:11:47 Thomas: Wow, I mean, I will note Baldoni is not in the text. We're taking Jones's word for it that that's what they're about. And feel like that would be easily refuted. So at the same time, yeah, at the statement about the women thing being about Jones was pretty weak. I'm realizing it was a claim that this is about me and more like, oh, this kind of thing was about women like, which I think is a little, you know, you could defend that as like opinion more. Whereas something like this, if she were to say, this is know, she knows Abel has the real texts. Abel were able to say, no, this is about something completely different, that would be pretty bad for her. So I have to, I have imagine this is About Baldoni as Jones is representing. And so this is really good evidence in Blake's favor. And I'm actually wondering why this wouldn't be in Blake'S complaint then.

0:11:59 Lydia: I would find that surprising. I'm not I'm, not sure.

0:12:41 Thomas: Interesting. So Jennifer Abel saying it's so cringy, his face and other person says Blake was probably grossed out too. And then Jennifer Abel says, yeah, and filed a cease and desist. Surprised that wouldn't be in Blake's complaint. That's interesting. Wonder why. There's got to be a reason. Knows? Months later, Abel was even more explicit in her disdain for Baldoni.

0:12:59 Lydia: It says months later, but the date on these texts are January 14th. So the following day And yeah, so I It is weird But the fix here should be then hours later. April was even more explicit.

0:13:03 Thomas: So a day later. That is weird. Okay. Text is still very bad. This is Abel. I Can't Stand Him. He's so pompous. A men's retreat during release. Is he crazy? And being off the grid for the summer because he's just so overworked. Like, calm down. You are not that important. Nobody gives a shit how hard your life is. What covers, he's doing at this point, none because he's not a star. Doesn't need a retreat. He needs to be humbled when this movie flops. He's going to try to blame every person around him for it.

0:13:31 Lydia: Magazines.

0:13:42 Thomas: Wow. Okay. Well, first off the movie didn't flop.

0:13:42 Lydia: Man, it made a lot of money.

0:13:47 Thomas: On one hand, that's like not a great you'd be like, well, point against in terms of prediction. But that's also very strong evidence for Blake that this is potentially able identified January 14th, 2024, that he's going to blame everyone around him but him.

0:14:04 Lydia: I want to pick up a a little bit just as like a side note on this retreat thing. So from I understand, I did some deep dives on this on the side, kind of exploring male feminism. And Baldoni participates in these all men retreats through a group called Sacred Sons. He did it even on his 40th birthday, like he brought. All of his like his dad, his like closest guy friends, and they just went to the woods in Tahoe and then did this like retreat with like like bonding exercises. They have like wrestling kind of things.

0:14:34 Thomas: So weird.

0:14:34 Lydia: I was like watching YouTube videos about what happens at these things.

0:14:37 Thomas: Nothing against a good wrestle, but I don't need to go to a retreat in the woods to do it.

0:14:39 Lydia: But. It's like a primal, primal screaming,

0:14:44 Thomas: Oh, for fuck's sake.

0:14:44 Lydia: You know, wrestling. It's. Oh, yeah. And it's specifically, you it's very much aligned with the Man Enough podcast and his book. And It's very Much aligned with that.

0:14:49 Thomas: Is Baha 'i thing or separate from that? Okay.

0:14:57 Lydia: No, it is separate.

0:14:57 Thomas: So it's just like, in general, he seems very wooey. And, you know, in fairness, Blake has a text where she says she's wooey as well. And that's just, like, Hollywood wooey bullshit stuff, whatever. But that's kind of weird.

0:15:08 Lydia: Yeah, I been spending this is for another episode for another time, probably on a different show. But I have Been spending some time looking into the structure of this retreat specifically, because Steve Sarowitz is, I think he's gotten involved too. So yeah, I'm just, spending I some Time looking into it. Because to become a leader for Sacred Sons, it costs money. And I

0:15:31 Thomas: So some sort of pyramid scheme.

0:15:32 Lydia: Think so. So I'm digging. For another time.

0:15:38 Thomas: Now we get to a paragraph that's a bunch of narrative that sounds very bad, but doesn't but seem to be supported by text. I'm going to read it because it is. Big accusations. It says to further their plan, Abel and Nathan contrived to plant stories in media outlets, including the Daily and Business Insider to trash Jones and Jones work reputations publicly into their clients. They also back channeled with Wayfair and Baldoni to paint Jones in a negative light. For example, following the premiere of the film, the Daily Male published an article reporting on tensions between Baldoni and Lively. There is a footnote so we can see which one that is. That article relied exclusively on social media posts that had been identified for Abel earlier that same day. A shocking coincidence or confirmation that Abel had planted the story on information and belief. Abel and Nathan conspired to plant this story in the Daily Mail in pursuit of dual objectives. First, the negative story cemented Baldoni's need for Nathan's crisis management services, ensuring herself an ongoing paycheck. Second, they arranged for Baldoni and Wayfair to believe that Jones was the cited insider and also created a false story that Jones had publicly blamed Lively for the article, thus sowing discord between Baldoni

0:16:55 Lydia: I was going to say, can you break this down a little bit?

0:16:56 Thomas: I know I'm a little skeptical, but well, let's take it one step at a time. So this story, it's Mail published an article on tensions between Baldoni and Lively on what date?

0:17:07 Lydia: 8th.

0:17:07 Thomas: August 8th. It says that it used the same posts that had been identified for Abel earlier that same day.

0:17:17 Lydia: From like a Jonesworks employee kind of thing, like kind of flagging.

0:17:19 Thomas: Maybe. But why didn't we? Why didn't she show us that? But OK, so she doesn't show us. That, which I think would have been pretty powerful. Who knows? It says phase one of their master plan. This is a multi -step plan, which the steps, the more skeptical going to be because these people don't seem like. Evil geniuses. And honestly, I don't, to think that most things aren't an elaborate conspiracy. Like it's just not usually how people work, but okay. Negative story cemented Baldoni's need for Nathan's crisis management services that I think there is some evidence of, or at least the accusations make sense where it's like, Hey, you really need us. You know why? Cause look at these bad articles and that's a way to get business. And it turns out they seeded the bad articles that, okay. I'm willing to believe that's possibility, but it says. Also arranged for Baldoni and Wayfair to believe that Jones was the insider. Create a false story that Jones had publicly blamed lively for the article. What, so why would they create a fake story? Yeah, this is where it's losing me. So okay. Let's say that that. First thing is true. Let's say they're planting stories to scare Baldoni. OK, mean, I can at least understand

0:18:25 Thomas: That they're playing stories to them, right? They're blaming Jones as the insider. So that could be. I could see it being if like Heath and Baldoni got suspicious or something and they're like, hey, who's this insider? Like if she did it as know, if they already clearly don't like Jones and they are, you Between Baldonian waves.

0:18:37 Lydia: Hum.

0:18:57 Thomas: So it's right.

0:18:57 Lydia: Yeah, it's the Baldoni Wayfarer parties and Jones. Yeah yeah. It's just a poorly written sentence.

0:19:00 Thomas: And Jones. OK, so it's just a lot more words than you needed. OK. So, I mean, you know, actually, now that I read that, I actually think it was more that it was written badly because actually that doesn't sound so crazy.

0:19:09 Lydia: Well and I mean if we continue to the next paragraph we do get a little more information.

0:19:14 Thomas: Let's find out. The audience. I only know what they know right now. And it says the scheme worked when the article was published. At first, key players in the film's release, including Josh Green Stein, the present of Sony Pictures Motion Pictures Group, believed, parentheses correctly, that Abel was a person responsible for the story. This is, this is, plot is thickening a lot. Okay.

0:19:33 Thomas: So then we have Josh Greenstine to Jennifer Abel. Hi, Jen. Informed you have been speaking to sites about bad between Blake and Justin. He was good on Today Show, then Slash for some reason. If a negative story breaks, it would hurt the movie.

0:19:49 Lydia: Is August 8th. We're talking premiere just about. Blood, you know, Taylor Swift. So Blake Lively's best friend. OK, continue. I'm not the only one who thought that.

0:19:57 Thomas: But... It's fine. But Abel denied. Yeah, it's fine now. That's what you're here for. I acknowledge it. Able denied being the source and instead falsely told Sony's communications team that Jones was the leak that.

0:20:10 Lydia: However, there is no text supporting that.

0:20:13 Thomas: And it says this false allegation stuck rumors that Jones's was behind the article began to make their way back to Wayfair causing Heath to respond. With hostility. Where I'm noticing that this actually happened before that text that we, were citing like, Hey, I don't wanna hear from the Stephanie Jones person anymore. And this, this Jones works, this is August 8th. That a reason why Jamie Heath, yeah, was like done with her.

0:20:37 Lydia: Why Jamie Heath wants nothing to do with Stephanie Jones. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:20:41 Thomas: We'll read you the text. It says, why

0:20:42 Lydia: From Jamie Heath to Stephanie Jones, Tara Hanks and Jen Abel on August 8th. I'm hearing from Sony that, quote, someone named Stephanie Jones also he wrote, quote and then wrote out the quotes. Has responded out to Daily Mail saying that Blake is to blame and now this has escalated at all. We were purposely not responding to anything as to not fuel. This has fueled it. Everyone stand down unless I am aware of any moves. I don't care who is supposed to do what. I'm not interested in that. I need all to understand that. He's pretty PO'd.

0:21:17 Thomas: Think it meant not interested in that. Everyone stand down unless I am aware of any moves. I don't care who is supposed to do what. I think it should say not interested in that. And then I'm interested only in any strategy being run by me. I need all to understand that. So my guess. I'm guessing he substituted. The kind of thing I do in text all the Time. Instead of most interested, I think he meant not interested.

0:21:38 Lydia: Then Stephanie Jones responds and to the whole group here. So Jamie, Tara and Jen and said, to clarify again, I have not spoken to Daily Mail. The above isn't true. I also don't believe Danny or Kim at Sony are saying that above quote also has spaces as if it was just being drafted. So we're not seeing what she's referring to there as if then she followed up shortly thereafter and said, I'm not contacting press, but concerning if Danny or Kim are saying I've escalated this as I haven't even touched this. I'm going to contact them. And then Jamie Heath responds a minutes after that and says, Stephanie, Stephanie, as your client and the one pays for the services, I am stating to not contact anyone regarding Wayfarer or Sony at this time. If you do after this text, it will be a major problem. This needs to be respected now. It's

0:21:56 Thomas: Quote also has spaces? Huh.

0:22:27 Lydia: Getting really intense.

0:22:28 Thomas: Is, and again, this was before, this is a week before that other text. Yeah this is odd. I know what to make of all this.

0:22:32 Lydia: Let's seems like there is something else that like hostility or at least the beginnings of hostility. Because this seems like a really dramatic reaction for something that like this is the one instance.

0:22:47 Thomas: Especially for the client Jamie Heath to be taking toward Stephanie Jones. And they've been working with Stephanie Jones for quite a while for Jonesworks. Abel was the main contact there. So I'm going to go ahead and say, and this is just me, my But as of this point, I feel like I'm kind of agnostic on this one. I feel it could be true. Just knowing how stuff works in, you know, offices and just anything, you Jennifer Abel just blamed Jones. And it was like, since Abel was the main contact and was working the client, I can imagine Abel shit talking Jones constantly blaming Jones for the problem, any problems and that forming this, you know, and maybe convincing Jamie Heath and others that like, God, she's really a drag on us. We need to, you want to take them as clients. Like that just seems pretty clear. So I could see that being true. I could also see it being true, like, I don't trust Stephanie Jones. And I could it being that instead Stephanie Jones had done something that undermined somebody in their view. I don t know. I can see it also being a justified anger at Stephanie Jones, but it does seem like a lot.

0:23:33 Lydia: She goes rogue. Yeah

0:23:54 Thomas: Like, it seems, and it seems weird, like okay. Know, when I look at that text, think this is bullshit. Hearing from Sony that quote someone named Stephanie Jones like they know who Stephanie Jones is, right? Aren't I they going to know who the publicist is?

0:23:54 Lydia: Mm hmm. I mean, Josh Greenstein with Sony directly responded to Jennifer Abel about something. And so, yeah, that that sounds like maybe like a weird pretend rumor mill.

0:24:12 Thomas: Especially with the quotes to like the quote quote. Seems like. Also seems unnecessary. You know, if OK, if you were texting in this, I'd be like, hey, Sony is saying you did that. Like you responded to Daily Mail. I wouldn't say, quote, someone named Stephanie Jones. And then this is man. I kind of maybe in this one interaction, I feel like my bullshit meter is more that Jamie Heath is bullshitting because she if she's saying I didn't do that, that's not true. And she's saying, I also don't believe Danny or Kim at Sony are saying the above. By the way, that's her like first name basis with these Sony people. So she doesn't believe that they're saying, quote, someone named Stephanie Jones.

0:24:56 Thomas: Quote also has spaces was as just being drafted. That doesn't refer to that quote. There's no spaces. There is there a formatting thing? Okay, either there is a quote we are not seeing. Either way, I still think it is pretty powerful for her saying, I don' t believe Danny or Kim at Sony are saying that. And then she says, not contesting press, but it is concerning if Danny or Kim are saying that I've escalated this as I haven't even touched this. I'm going to contact them. Then Jamie Heath saying, as your client and the one who pays for the services, I am stating not to contact anyone regarding Wayfair or Sony at this time. You do after this text, it will be a major problem. This needs to be respected. Now, that feels bullshitty to me. That feels like.

0:25:21 Lydia: Don't. Yeah, yeah. That that feels very weird.

0:25:34 Thomas: You're going to try to call my lie happening now. I'm going to get all authoritarian and be like, as your client, the pays for the blah, because it doesn't. That doesn't make sense. OK, so, OK, this is weird stuff and we don't have all the context. But from what I'm seeing, I actually kind of think Jamie Heath is full of shit in this instance. I still don't know why. Like is he so angry at Stephanie?

0:25:55 Lydia: Huh.

0:25:56 Thomas: Could it be about trying to get out of the contract?

0:25:59 Lydia: Could be if they're trying to establish like cause.

0:26:02 Thomas: Yeah, be. That could be that, like, they've made the decision, they want to be out of that contract. And if Abel is like, hey, they're overcharging you. You know, when I take you on myself, I'll only charge you 10K a month instead of 25. You I could imagine something like that. And I could Imagine that making someone mad if they're like, God, I could be paying so much less for this massive thing. And then you're also seeding in like some some they're doing and talking shit. Maybe this is in the frame of trying to find a reason to be out of this contract. I don't know that this is that's have now. I'm leaning more toward that. But I also recognize that Stephanie Jones, I don'T fully trust her. So who knows? That's wow. That's that's interesting. It says Heath went a step further and threatened Jones directly that he would issue a public press release stating that Baldonian Wayfarer terminated Jones works if she took any steps to contact Sony or others to clear her name, menacingly reminding her that she didn't need that kind of negative publicity for herself or her business. Weird.

0:27:06 Thomas: Now it talks about another article again, Daily Mail. It's again citing insiders. She's saying on information and belief, Abel and Nathan conspired to plant this story and further pursued their goal to cement Baldoni and Wafer's needs for Nathan's services. Heath and Able. What? Heath and able are bragging about the success of the strategy. So now Heath is in on it. That's a hold on. It says Heath and Abel bragged success of the strategy, jokingly referring to the leak as being the best decision of a press trip that and Nathan were accompanying Heath and Wayfair on and which Jones did not attend.

0:27:40 Lydia: It's very weird for him to say the leak in quotes.

0:27:43 Thomas: Jamie Heath to Jennifer Abel, August 10th, best decision

0:27:54 Lydia: Dunno, because it says that Jones did not attend, so it's not like she's on the plane with them in 20 rows separated. The plane? What?

0:28:03 Thomas: Rows separated from the leak. Yeah, it does. Does make it seem like they are calling someone the leak and sitting 20 rows away from them. Otherwise, I don't I can't think of what else it means. Is that what you're how you're interpreting?

0:28:15 Lydia: -hmm. Yeah! Then it specifically says that Jones did not attend this press trip.

0:28:19 Thomas: Is weird because that makes Jones's case worse. So why would she say that?

0:28:23 Lydia: Yeah. Then also Melissa Nathan's on this trip, so why didn't he, like, send it to Jen and Melissa? Don't know. It's weird.

0:28:29 Thomas: They're talking about Melissa Nathan almost. I this no sense because this is the only thing that has Heath in it in this way. So like paragraph 74 talks about the Daily Mail article. It says, on information belief, Abel and Nathan conspired to plant the story in further pursuit of their goal to cement Baldonian Wayfarer's needs for Nathan's services and turn them against Jones. Then the next paragraph is Heath and Abel bragged about the success of this strategy, jokingly referring to the leak as being the best decision of a press trip that Abel

0:28:31 Lydia: It could be. Mm -hmm.

0:29:06 Thomas: Heath can't be in on the strategy, could he? She hasn't alleged that Heath is involved in the planting of stories, which would be weird because, again, Heath at this time, president of Wayfarer or eventually CEO or whatever. It would have to be under the that Heath really wants Baldoni to need Abel and Nathan. Like, I just I don't that doesn't make sense to me unless there's something truly weird going on. Don't know. I feel either about somebody else. Heath thinks a different person is responsible for the leak. I'm reading this text, again, best decision of this whole trip, 20 rows separated from the leak, that don' know, but from the no context we have, it seems like that's a decision to just be or be away from someone they don't like who they are referring to as the leak.

0:29:47 Thomas: Right. Unless 20 rows has some meaning like an Excel I don't know what the fuck this could be. Here's what I just realized. Would be Jamie Heath talking negatively about the leak, so I I doubt doubt Heath is bragging about this. Yeah, bragged about the success of the strategy. That doesn't make any sense because Heath shouldn't, and something very weird is going on, Heath should be oblivious to this whole strategy, right? It's Abel and or Nathan planting stories to make Heath and Baldoni think they need them.

0:30:16 Lydia: It would be very weird, especially for like the long friendship that Heath and Baldoni have for Heath to be like conspiring with Abel and Nathan. To cost his own company money. Yeah yeah.

0:30:25 Thomas: That doesn't, this has to be about something else. So here's what this seems like. Like they've decided someone is the leaker who's in their presence. And Jamie doesn't like that, meaning he's not trying to leak as a strategy. You know what I mean? So, like, I think Jones is just misrepresenting what this text is because that doesn't make sense at all.

0:30:42 Thomas: OK, this is more time than I want to spend on this. But like, well, there's a bunch of them where she's just like, presented questionably and possibly outright misleading. That one, I think, can't be right. That doesn't make sense.

0:30:42 Lydia: On the one text. Yeah misleadingly.

0:31:00 Thomas: Now it's Still still always saying Abel and Nathan. It's still saying Abil and Nathan planted, Abil And Nathan planted. So I think she just messed up by thinking it made sense to say Heath would be congratulating them on the strategy. It doesn't Make any sense. Like Heath is the one they're like kind tricking in to Baldoni. Okay. Now she's saying that Abel and Nathan contrived have to Business Insider publish that article that you gave us the breakdown of, right?

0:30:55 Lydia: Yeah Yeah. No, Yes, exactly. There are text messages here that she includes to prove that they did talk to the journalist. Right. Warren. It says, indeed, as early as July 29th, 2024, Abel and Nathan were coordinating their outreach to Katie Warren, the Business Insider reporter who eventually published the article attacking Jones. Abel to Nathan, July 29. Did you by chance chat with Katie, the journo? Melissa Nathan to Abel. No, she's calling me soon. Actually, should be very soon, probably in the next 10 minutes. Information and belief in the subsequent two weeks, Abel and Nathan fed information to Warren to ensure that she moved forward with the article and of Jones. Contact between Abel & Warren included, at a minimum, a 27 -minute phone call on July 30th and several phone calls on August 1st and August 12th. Abel also facilitated Warren's outreach to former clients of Jones to further disrupt JonesWorks' business.

0:32:15 Thomas: Remind me when this article came out again. Firm

0:32:17 Lydia: 15th from Redacted, FYI, Katie is going to try you again by phone to confirm if blank is a client. Able to Reducted, I I would definitely call her ASAP and say off record she's not and to not have her included in the piece. It's July 30th. Doubt that Abel and Nathan are behind like the 40 people between clients and employees like that all spoke. Yeah.

0:32:25 Thomas: If blank is a client. Knowing any of this stuff, that article seemed like a lot of reporting, like a whole lot of legwork.

0:32:46 Lydia: Yeah, like she's trying to pin the whole thing on them. I don't think that's fair.

0:32:50 Thomas: So next she's saying this client with whom Jones had worked closely for years, bringing her from obscurity to prominence, terminated her contract with Jones as a direct result of Abel's encouragement and deliberate interference, which that's a major legal claim. Tortious interference or whatever with the contract. Is that what What's happening, though? Because. Is another thing that just seems presented weirdly. Abel facilitated the journalist Warren's outreach to formal clients of to further disrupt Joneswork's business. FYI, Katie is going to try you again by phone to confirm if blank is a client.

0:33:24 Lydia: And then she says, I would definitely call her ASAP and say off record she's not and to not have her included in the piece. How does it follow then paragraph 80?

0:33:27 Thomas: She's not a client. No. You know what? This be someone's agent? You know, celebrity X's agent. Hey, Katie's going to call you to confirm if celebrity X is a client. Would definitely call her ASAP and say off record she's not and did not have her included in the piece. So maybe that's what it would be.

0:33:46 Lydia: It could be.

0:33:52 Thomas: At least make sense. Don't. Really see how this supports getting the client to quit or whatever. That doesn't, that's yeah. That does. Okay. Terminate her contract with Jones as a direct result of Abel's encouragement. I feel like we need more evidence on that.

0:33:59 Lydia: Don't think it does. Yeah. I agree.

0:34:09 Thomas: Again, this is a complaint. You don't, there doesn't have to be any texts. But it just feels like. Feels like Jones and maybe this makes sense. And I guess Blake Lively did the same thing. No one is trying to put their own shit in like no one's putting their own text in voluntarily, except later Baldoni to try to like clear his name.

0:34:25 Lydia: Then it just makes for a more confusing story sometimes.

0:34:28 Thomas: So if you really want to drive this home, have something from that client being like we're canceling and the date lines up or something, you know what I mean? Like otherwise. At the same time, you don't have to do that. So. Support it, though. We'll just say it's unsubstantiated.

0:34:41 Lydia: I would say big old grain of salt on that one.

0:34:44 Thomas: Then, boy, there is so much in here. So the plot is thick. The plot is rock hard at this point. Thicken.

0:34:50 Lydia: I was gonna say it's real thick already.

0:34:51 Thomas: It's thick with two C's. Then it says, in addition, on August 9th, Abel suggested and asked for Heath's approval to try to get Business Insider to remove reference to a letter of support. For Jones that Baldoni had previously written and falsely tell Warren that Baldani and Wayfair had terminated their relationship with Jones works when they had not.

0:35:15 Thomas: So my first question before we read this was that whatever this is included in the Business Insider article.

0:35:14 Lydia: I saw nothing regarding Justin Baldoni or Wayfair. Mean, there were a handful of like positive things from clients included. And so it seems like that potentially was another positive thing from a client included.

0:35:32 Thomas: Maybe this worked. Okay. So the texts are from Abel to Heath. August 9th. Just thought about something. Should I try to get Justin's letter removed from Business Insider? Would need to tell her on background that both Justin and Wayfair have severed ties. Not sure if your lawyers would recommend that as she would need to print that and not sure that would cause any issues. Is really interesting.

0:35:56 Lydia: Again, when we're looking at the full timeline, did not break their contract with Jonesworks until August 30th.

0:36:03 Thomas: Yeah. And they're required to give like some notice. Right. So they would have would have had to give notice long before this and maybe they did. But I kind of doubt it.

0:36:05 Lydia: 90 days. Mm -hmm. Mm -huh. They didn't because they had just renewed their contract May 2024.

0:36:14 Thomas: What? Is bizarre. Yeah. Very least, from all this, we can say Jamie Heath is firmly against Jones. And maybe it's from Abel, maybe Jamie Heath and Jennifer Abel. Maybe they have like a bit of a relationship of some kind. And I don't mean, you know, it could just be their friends or whatever. But like fits all this right now in my mind is if Abel constantly complains about Jones that she's a bully and that she does all these bad things or something. And maybe that she is bad for Baldoni and Wayfair or whatever and so it's sort of at this point. Abel and Heath are actively working to try to get out of that contract and to try because this is weird. Abel texting Heath. So was there a Justin's letter of support to begin with?

0:36:55 Lydia: Yeah right.

0:36:55 Thomas: When would that have been? I try to get Justin's letter removed from Business Insider? A

0:37:00 Lydia: Yeah I'd love to know what that was.

0:37:02 Thomas: That would imply that then Jones would about this article coming.

0:37:05 Lydia: Says he had previously written, so it could have been thanking her for some work or something like that.

0:37:11 Thomas: Would it be in the article? Also just a weird thing to put in the right, but, but why would it able doing that? Like you are going to support someone on the record, I think you could also very easily rescind that. I think he'd say Hey, I actually support them. And the journalist could still print it, but like you wouldn't just because it'd be like, hey, I changed my mind. I don' t support this person. Don't publish the letter. Re not gonna publish it. You Cause know what I mean? So like, I dont get why Justin wouldn't be doing that if, kind of feel like Heath could be working against Justin. I dont know.

0:37:16 Lydia: Mean, she maybe she was struggling to find positive things to include for Stephanie. Yeah.

0:37:44 Thomas: What the fuck is this?

0:37:44 Lydia: Yeah, I don't know. For a second, I WAS THINKING, oh, maybe it was like through the representative when they provided comment, like maybe they provided something. But that's a lot of lead time to give for comment. So I don'T THINK THAT'S IT EITHER.

0:37:56 Thomas: What I want to know is why would there be a Justin letter? Because they're definitely contacting people. And I it's fair to assume that it would have gotten back to Jones that there's this article coming. Like, I think that that's likely in a world like this, in a business like this.

0:38:10 Lydia: Donnie Deutsch would have let her know. Yeah I

0:38:11 Thomas: Where, yeah, we're like a journalist is contacting all. I mean, if we we heard from 40, couldn't there have been more? Or is that just how many they tried to contact? Is, I Jones had some warning that this was coming. Have given a Justin letter to the journal? Who would Who have done that to begin with? Is weird. This is very weird. Also, yeah, not. Cool to do to be like, Hey, would your lawyers care if I misrepresented?

0:38:33 Lydia: I literally lie.

0:38:36 Thomas: Text the evidence that I'm lying about the state of your contract to a journalist. This is okay.

0:38:41 Lydia: And having it published like

0:38:43 Thomas: This is fucking weird. Okay. I feel like we're going to find out more about whatever this is. I feel like there's something weird going on. I the very least, this shows that Jennifer Abel is willing to like lie to journalists to get her way. I mean, this isn't black and white at the severed ties. So not sure if your lawyers would recommend that as she would need to print that and not sure her own ends, which then it says August 12th, three days before that article, Business Insider, the journalist Warren asked Abel to call her back. Would you mind giving me a call back when you have a minute? Just have a quick question. Abel called Warren 11 minutes later. Day before the article was published, Nathan texted Abel boasting about the destructive effect it would have on Jones and mockingly suggested that Abel should tell Jones.

0:39:39 Lydia: And the text from Nathan to Abel says, Stephanie, are you aware there is a kill story, in all caps, dropping this week on you and if you hadn't have blown us up, we would not have been in such a bad place. Using of instead of have every

0:39:52 Thomas: Yeah. Mean, that that could could refer to like the personal grievance between Nathan and Stephanie from like that, you client thing. I don't know. Before the article was published, texted Nathan Abel that she, quote, just got a text from my source to say that the article is going live imminently. Abel asked which article Nathan was referencing, Nathan responded, I just shook my head at your response. The only article. Abel responded, oh shit, that article. Warren then texted Abel the minute the article was published to alert her that it had gone live. That's OK. That'S I mean, this could just be as a source. But Katie Warren, the journalist, to Jennifer Abel, story is up. Thanks again for your help.

0:40:28 Lydia: And then sends her the link following that. It definitely seems like Jennifer Abel is like the the contact. Gave her the scoop like

0:40:34 Thomas: Exactly. Which that seems to be explicitly against the contract that least how Jones is represented, right? Also sent the article directly to numerous industry contacts, including Jones's clients and employees and several of Abel's industry friends and other industry publicists. This is a far cry from the July 10th resignation resignation email letter thing that you read us last episode. Trying to be the most charitable to able, say Stephanie Jones sucks real hard as an abusive employer bully, you it coming. If we looked at it in that light. If Abel writes this bullshit email to try to like make nice and then in the background is helping a journalist expose her still seems pretty deceptive, to be honest. But like, I guess I could at least understand it. Importantly, I don't think that gets her out of the fact that that is a huge contract breach. Unless there's some information we don't have.

0:41:28 Lydia: I agree and I mean I guess to your earlier point I think it was last episode also is that know, who knows if there's something in that contract that is not enforceable it when comes to like particular acts in the workplace or something. Maybe she feels protected because of that. Don't I know.

0:41:42 Thomas: Don' t know. Given that text about the, oh, do your lawyers, do you think they would care if I lied about it? I just wonder if she's just not thinking. Legally accurately. If she's

0:41:47 Lydia: That's true. Yeah like this is real life and there are consequences to getting things wrong like that. Yeah mm

0:41:55 Thomas: Lot of people just don't think about their contracts they sign. I think, I mean she might've just signed on, you I'll sign this employment agreement, not ever looked at it. Like I could see that being true. I don't know. Assertion, given that Wayfair and Baldoni were longtime clients of Jonesworks, the clear and false implication of the article was that Jones was responsible for the aggressive media tactics that were being employed by Baldoni against Lively. There any that on August 15th, like the public's eye, you John Q public going read this article from Business Insider in August 15 and think, ah, Jones must have been responsible for the aggressive media tactics that I don't know about at all right now. Like that doesn't make any sense.

0:42:32 Lydia: I mean, like Leslie Sloan would have read this.

0:42:34 Thomas: Yeah. OK, I guess. The article also doesn't mention Baldoni at all. So, like, I think it's a little bit weak because. Stands on its own as a major hit piece on Jones without this being some parallel to like, therefore you're going to think she was responsible for the negative. That doesn't, it seems think that's nonsense personally, but it just strikes me that she's trying to like co -op this a bit because the next paragraph is like negative about Jones shares a strikingly similar tone to the negative coverage against Lively appearing in the press at the same time. Hey, I don't even think that's true because this one had a bunch of cited named people.

0:43:04 Lydia: Not Daily Mail. Like, Like, like,

0:43:05 Thomas: It's not Daily Mail.

0:43:05 Lydia: Give me a break.

0:43:06 Thomas: It's not sources in the same vein as the gendered mean girl coverage. Oh, boy. Cast as a tyrannical boss who could quickly turn combative rather than a successful executive in a high profile and high pressure role. All right. I don't know how to evaluate that. I mean, yes, it's true that women in power are going to be.

0:43:24 Lydia: We talked about that a little bit.

0:43:25 Thomas: But so but I know it also seems like Jones might suck. So I don's and think Jones is reaching really hard here to try to like sympathy by connecting her story to Blake Lively's. And And in opinion, that's not valid and fails miserably.

0:43:29 Lydia: I think this is like a reputation saving effort right here, right? Like it's yeah.

0:43:51 Thomas: 91. Just days later, on August 25th, Insider turned the media storm surrounding Baldoni and Jones more pointedly to Nathan's advantage, publishing a second article that favorably touted Baldoni's hiring of Nathan the crisis. Article, which on Information and Belief was once again orchestrated by Nathan, noted that the negative attention on Lively was a gift to Baldoni. We're looking at this article and it is it really is kind of a Blake Lively smear job.

0:44:15 Lydia: Is very pro Melissa Nathan and pro crisis PR.

0:44:18 Thomas: It written by Eve Crosby and it very pro Baldoni and it presents everything like. This is a chance for him to really clear things up, you know, and like the other one, as we've said multiple times, seems more like, well, this was a lot of reporting to it. It doesn't seem like, oh, you leaked an article to a journalist. This one seems more like it could be a planted story in some way. I don't know to what extent, but it's so deviously pro -Baldoni in a way that it's not direct, but Yeah. Yeah. And like while this, for example. Have pointed out that Baldoni's crisis team represented Johnny Depp during his high profile court battle against Amber Heard. However, Bellix said that that likely had more to do with Baldoni needing a heavyweight fighting in his corner, given that Lively and her husband, Ryan Reynolds, no doubt have an, quote, equally strong PR team that is likely on standby. Like, while Melissa Nathan has handled controversial cases like Johnny Depp's trial, her expertise in the entertainment industry is unparalleled, which is necessary, given that one of the most powerful couples in Hollywood has a direct hand in the film.

0:44:52 Lydia: Was a great move. Mm hmm.

0:45:25 Thomas: What the fuck is that?

0:45:26 Lydia: Yeah, because I mean, when we find out that they hired Melissa Nathan?

0:45:30 Thomas: Mean, oh, when the public found out? Thought it was like right away.

0:45:33 Lydia: Pretty sure that when they were covering it in the media, they specifically call out Melissa Nathan, you know, being Johnny Depp's former crisis PR person. This does feel like a way to shift that narrative.

0:45:45 Thomas: It's like preempting an argument. This is very Baldoni's side, Melissa Nathan side. Like it just is. Doesn't make any sense to write this article any other way. Like not an article, really. Like paragraph talks about the John Joe's Doe's one through 10. it just says there are people who acted in concert with Abel and Nathan. Publishing the two websites. Now, we haven't seen any proof of that, have we? Like in this whole complaint, I don't see any actual proof that they are behind StephanieJonesLeaks .com. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but we haven'T seen it. And don'T think there's anything wrong with putting this in the complaint. Putting in John Does 1 through 10. You don't know, but you are alleging that, they had something to do with it. Possible. Maybe there's some evidence, but I know. If this is true, I think it's reasonable to put this in here, especially because it would be another big breach of the contract. But I don' t know if this is so it just goes on to talk about what was on those sites like bullied Jonesworks employees. Jones and Jonesworks interfered with the employment prospects of former Jonesworks. Employees, Jones and Johnsworth leaked confidential client information. And these are bad, bad allegations. This will be an interesting defamation component. Like if she. Proves that anyone was responsible for this and can prove they were false. She's probably a public figure, so she would have to prove the clear malice thing. So I don't know if that's going anywhere, but I don't know. It' s just some rando, I doubt she has any case, really. But if it is able, then I think the breach thing would be pretty huge there. I feel feel like that'd be a violation of her employment contract pretty, solidly. So a, we'll we'll wait and see on that for

0:47:15 Lydia: Especially because the original website was launched in May. If Abel was behind it, she was currently an employee at Jones Works when that website went live. That's

0:47:24 Thomas: When was that resignation letter again?

0:47:27 Lydia: 10th.

0:47:28 Thomas: Right, so this next paragraph is kind of bullshitty. The while, Abel had been making arrangements to leave Jonesworks with confidential information and clients in tow. On July 19th, while still employed by Jonesworks, Abil filed paperwork to create RWA Communications LLC, public the relations agency she intended to start upon her departure from Jonesworks. Had also created a website and social media accounts for her new competing firm, all while still

0:47:53 Lydia: Yeah, that's fine. That'S fine. Had expressed her intention to be like she was sticking through to help with the transition period, but she had made it clear she was going to start her own business like not sticking around.

0:48:04 Thomas: Here's what I will say. That's not fine if the non -compete holds up. Also, even if not, it might be that you can't do that while you're still, it I guess you're right that if she was just filing paperwork to make an LLC, I mean, unless doing business, I think that wouldn't really be anything.

0:48:08 Lydia: Yeah that's that's true. Maybe I can see when her first Instagram post was.

0:48:26 Thomas: Also, like the letter was way before this, so she was already clear and upfront with Jones before this.

0:48:32 Lydia: Yeah well, you first Instagram post for RWA Communications was August 17th. So that would still be conducting business before she was gone from Joan's work. So maybe you have a point. Maybe she just didn't care or didn't think about it.

0:48:45 Thomas: Yeah, we'll see. Maybe there'll be some dispute over that contract. You very curious to see the response for this. We've still got a little bit to go here. She created a new email about it. Okay, hold on. Actually, this is pretty bad. Least as early as July 22nd, Abel had created a new email account, jennifer at rwacommunications .com, to which she forwarded dozens of proprietary messages from Jonesworks, including client information, Jonesworks work product, and information specifically regarding Jonesworks' work for Wayfair and Baldoni. Abel successfully hid her theft of confidential and information. Abel surreptitiously continued stealing documents and client information while also secretly contacting Jonesworks clients to pave the way for her departure. That's bad. I mean, that is real bad stuff. Seems like.

0:49:30 Lydia: I feel like that's also like. Clearly clearly demonstrated to. So I can't imagine any of that information being fake. Like,

0:49:38 Thomas: And here's some text. As her planned departure neared, Abel boasted to Nathan about the damage she was doing to Jonesworks, her then current employer, and her on. To Nathan, this is August 13th. We are going to war. I feel so alive. Ha ha ha. Then Nathan back to Abel, going out of Jonesworks with a bang. When Jonesworks information technology personnel disabled Abel's access to Jonesworks servers after discovering her unauthorized download activity, Abel boasted that she was still able to steal of the documents and information she needed to form her own competing firm. Jessup, interesting, yeah, Jessup to Abel, oof, did you get everything you needed before she did all of that? Abel back to Jessup. Yes, pretty much. I have my way around that shit because I have like hundreds of different emails for each domain that I own so she can suck it. That's August 20th.

0:50:11 Lydia: Calling out someone we don't know. Jessup. Alicia Jesup is a, according to LinkedIn, a sport industry leader, attorney, media entrepreneur and out of L .A. So just a friend. But when I saw attorney, I was like, yikes, I would not want to be involved with this situation.

0:50:39 Thomas: Be just a friend or. Yeah. If an attorney is like, did you get everything? That's interesting.

0:50:49 Lydia: Serves as associate professor of sport law and sport marketing at Pepperdine. Is a contributor to The Athletic. Yeah I why they didn't redact her name because they've redacted everyone else that hasn't been named. Interesting.

0:50:58 Thomas: You get everything you needed before she did all of that? Yeah. Maybe Jessup thinks this is just like personal stuff she's getting. Cause otherwise it for a lawyer to be like, did you get all the stuff from the, that's okay. Is such a weird thing. Further coordinated with Nathan and Baldoni to ensure that Wayfair and Baldini would leave Jonesworks and come with her as clients for her newly created RWA communications. So this is Nathan to Abel. On like, don't help her. I'm like, I'm not helping her. Telling her what we're not doing. And she needs to also not do anything. And my last conversation with her was last Wednesday or so. And then I couldn't help myself. Ended it with, and I'm just going to step out of line before I go to bed and tell you, Jen is amazing. She's so loyal. She loves you so much. And you have to go with her. And was like, oh my God, of course, of What? Ha ha ha. Oh my God, I love you. For chatting with him. It's it seems kind of fakey to me. I don't that's what I mean.

0:52:06 Lydia: Coordinating the movement of Wayfair and Baldoni Baldoni. To Abel. I mean like some of it might be a little performative, but yeah, yeah I do think Melissa Nathan sees Jennifer Abel as like a close working relationship moving forward. So, you know, kind of like doing what she can to butter her up.

0:52:25 Thomas: See it as artificial in terms of this is a bit of a fake friend. I don't know. It just seems weird to me.

0:52:27 Lydia: That's fair. Especially because we know that Jennifer Abels also pretty fake talking a lot of shit about Melissa Nathan, Justin Bieber. Like they're all just talking crap about each other. Yeah.

0:52:35 Thomas: But it seems to fake people is what I'm. Yeah, yeah. Got to just keep reading. This is wild. On or about August 21st, Jones learned about Abel's ongoing efforts to steal dozens and of Jonesworks proprietary documents, including client sensitive and business information that Abel had no legitimate reason to access, including for major brand and clients that Abl had never worked on. Abel went so far as to download and copy the Jonesworks client client contract form, except that she replaced the Joneswork logo with the logo for her own newly formed business. Jonesworks immediately terminated Abel.

0:53:12 Thomas: As part of her termination paperwork, Abel falsely signed a statement purporting to confirm that she had not removed any electronic confidential information from Jonesworks. But of course, she had, and the signed statement was untrue. I'm not sure what... does. I mean, it's not good, but yeah, that's interesting. The damage was done. With the encouragement and assistance of Nathan, Baldoni, and Heath, Abel stole Wayfarer and Baldoni's clients, targeted other Jonesworks clients to leave, and launched the long -planned and competing RWA communications. As a result, Wayfarers and Baldonis ceased working with Jonesworks, and despite being under contract with Joneswork, refused to pay Jonesworks what they contractually contractually owed for its services. Even on the day she departed Jonesworks, Abel to Nathan that she was shaking Jones down to extract as much as she could from the company before her departure. Abel to Nathan, August 21st. By why don't you read these ones?

0:54:02 Lydia: Sure. Abel to Melissa Nathan. By the way, I'm having my off -boarding this morning with our chief of staff, a joke, because staff won't face me. And you should see the list I made of things to bring up. And then Melissa Nathan responds, I need the list. Able responds, holding them hostage. It's wild.

0:54:23 Lydia: I don't really know what this list could be.

0:54:26 Thomas: It's just like she's making a list of all the reasons that she's leaving.

0:54:28 Lydia: That she's leaving?

0:54:29 Thomas: And yeah, holding was Abel content only to steal documents, clients and confidential information from Jonesworks. On August 14th, Abel also attempted to encourage Nathan to coach a valuable Jonesworks employee. To Nathan, August 14. Blank wants 200K. He will come work for you. You he's pricey. Back to Abel. Do you think you serious? What? Do you thank you serious and he would do it? Maybe he's serious and and will do it. OK. Abel also encouraged at least six other Jonesworks employees working for her in the Los Angeles office, almost half the Jonesworks employs in that office. OK, so it's not very big to leave the company, including by bad mouthing Jones to those employees and sending the employees resumes to competing public relations firms. As a direct result of these actions, two of these employees ended their contracts with Jonesworks and left to work for competitors.

0:54:52 Lydia: He's serious, yeah. Yeah.

0:55:17 Thomas: What's weird is like there's some conclusory stuff, but there's also like a responsive, like a preemptive rebuttal that's really weird because this is the or maybe those Facebook posts.

0:55:31 Lydia: Facebook posts.

0:55:33 Thomas: It says she also tried again to point the finger at Jones as cover for her own role in the campaign against Lively becoming public. But Jones has never doctored any text messages. Just a weird thing to put in the lawsuit, like in response to nothing like there's no. Whatever. But Jones has never doctored any text messages and has no reason to do so. Abel's text messages were forensically extracted directly from the company phone that Abel used during her employment at Jonesworks and voluntarily returned to Jonesworks upon her termination in the presence of an employment lawyer, Jonesworks chief of staff, and an IT specialist, and have been preserved in their original state. As has become glaringly apparent, text messages are themselves enough to condemn Abel and Nathan without any need for doctoring. Yeah, that's it. That's Now we're to the causes of action. But I think we'll save that for the lawyer, even though we already we already read them. But, yeah. Wow. Closing thoughts on this, I guess.

0:56:25 Lydia: Man, I'm going to reiterate. Not conduct personal communications on your work device at all.

0:56:30 Thomas: That's for sure.

0:56:31 Lydia: Do you not use your work email to have conversations that boss to see? I feel like that's a lesson that we all can take from this. I guess I'll repeat. Things that I felt throughout this where think that Stephanie Jones is necessarily a good person, but I also think that some of these things are very, very compelling here. And I think she does have a case with regard to breach of contract if there is something that we're completely missing from the able side of things. I also want to note that naming naming Baldoni. This at all like in the the second cause of action regarding tortious out Justin Baldoni here, I think, is really weird. Understand calling out Wayfair. I don't know why Jamie Heath isn't called out more specifically here, because everything that we read in the entire complaint is Jamie Heath being involved.

0:57:20 Thomas: Be do you mean because it's the second cause of action is tortious interference against defendants Melissa Nathan Wayfair and Justin Baldoni, but not Jamie Heath?

0:57:26 Lydia: But not Jamie Heath. And I feel like, her like. Naming Justin Baldoni in that regard doesn't totally make sense to me based on what's laid out in the complaint. I don't see how Justin Baldani participated in tortious interference with the employment agreement. Like the only thing we got from that with Justin Baldini is that Melissa Nathan said, hey, I talked you up to Justin Baldioni. I mean, I don' t recall really anything else.

0:57:49 Thomas: I you don't have to put any evidence in your complaint. So who knows? It's also the sue everybody and filter it out later. I think, yeah, that's interesting. The only thing I can think of is because Baldoni was a separate entity in the contract and Heath is looked at as part of Wayfarer.

0:57:56 Lydia: But then why wouldn't you have named Jamie Heath?

0:58:07 Thomas: That's the only thing

0:58:07 Lydia: But when it comes to tortious interference, there is no reason why you wouldn't name Jamie Heath there.

0:58:11 Thomas: Yeah, I agree with that. I'm not really sure why is Jamie Heath named individually and other stuff.

0:58:17 Lydia: No. I don't think he's named anywhere because he's not a defendant.

0:58:20 Thomas: I think that goes along with going after the company rather than the guy, I guess. I could would guess the answer is going to have to do with that. Like if Jamie Heath is seen as operating as a Wayfarer officer, then it's more about that. And also in of assets, you're going after the company anyway, not Heath. Yeah, it is.

0:58:40 Lydia: Well, flag that to talk.

0:58:41 Thomas: Yeah, no, it's definitely an interesting thing to consider because, yeah, in the idea that you can name everybody and let them sort out later. That's like an easy dismissal. Maybe it's like, oh, he was acting for the business. So yeah, maybe that's just such an easy way to get out of it that you don't bother. We'll ask a lawyer.

0:58:53 Lydia: Behalf of the company. About you? Closing thoughts on your end?

0:59:01 Thomas: There's a strong possibility that Jones sucks and this is a lot of reverse victim and abuser stuff. Think there's going to be some of that.

0:59:11 Lydia: There's Darvo going on here. Yeah.

0:59:13 Thomas: Because I get that like based on just having seen a lot of this bullshit. But I think that in the end, the contract is going to be the contract. And I think one version of events, like if I'm, okay, if I'M going through the landscape of possibilities in the full on anti -Jones side, it could be Jones is a monster. Abel has really good reason to get out of this cause she's been bullied and whatever. Um, we'll see if she, I mean, maybe she just tripped up legally and just totally screwed herself with her employment contract, but I could see that being like least the favorable toward Jones end of it. And a lot of what Abel was doing maybe makes sense if she's could see that being like the worst Jones side of it. And even in that world, which we might be close to, like, I actually I get a bad feeling about Jones. I don't like stuff like, OK, she convinced employees to leave. Well, why did they leave so easily? Like, how did she convince two employees just leave? You know, like why me as like if you had a good employer. Would say or you would be like, hey, I think I need a raise to justify staying, you know, like you could work presenting is like, yeah, all she has to do is be like worm tongue and just go whisper in their ear and they'll hate me for no reason. And they'll like that

1:00:26 Thomas: Strikes me as that reverse victim abuser stuff, like where it'S just like the other person is just poisoning you against me. Like that's often a telltale sign like, oh, they're just poisoning them against me, you it's actually not like super easy to poison someone against someone, let alone a bunch of people. I think there has to be some there there already, you know, especially when you're talking about employees of Jones, like will have had a bunch interactions independent of Abel, you Abel also sucks to some degree, and it'll be about like, could she justify morally what she was doing by saying Jones was awful? Maybe she could justify it morally. Can she justify it legally?

1:01:09 Lydia: Exactly. Those are two different

1:01:10 Thomas: Don't know. Yeah, it doesn't look good. Like, think that even if you have a bad boss, I actually don't think you can do this. Like honestly, I mean, even if I wouldn't recommend, okay, I have an abusive bully of a boss. Going to surreptitiously steal their clients and documents. Just don't do that. You can't meet with an also pretty bad wrong. It just doesn't work that way.

1:01:10 Lydia: Questions. Yeah I say just count down to your last day and then wipe your hands clean of them.

1:01:38 Thomas: Just leave. Yeah. An attorney. First and foremost. And like able person seems like she was making good money over there. You know, like speak to an attorney, say, how do what's the best way for me to get out of this? Need I to be out of I just don't want this person in my life. And furthermore, I

1:01:52 Lydia: Yeah This what my contract looks like. Recourse What do I have?

1:01:55 Thomas: And I know that these clients want me and like, how can I actually do that? And honestly, with that kind of contract, the answer might be, well, you a termination agreement with Stephanie Jones that allows you to compete. Like if you can find a way or, or you gotta do what, yeah, you gotta what you gotta in order to get free. I, no matter how bad Jones is, I really don't think Abel's actions be justified legally speaking. I'd but we're going to talk to a lawyer. I would also say that this text evidence, what are the implications on Blake's complaint? Proof that Abel is willing to lie to journalists to plant stuff. You know, pretty solid proof, honestly. That every PR person? I don't know. Maybe it is. Oh, also the text about Baldoni. Oh, That one was weird. The text where it was like, and she took out a and

1:02:09 Lydia: You wait. The cease and desist. Yeah. It

1:02:40 Thomas: Being before like any of the. PR campaign, you know, like long before it, Abel saying it's so cringy, his face, Blake was probably grossed out too. And filed a cease and desist. Like that's pretty bad corroboration that Baldoni is kind of creepy. It's about Baldoni, like maybe, maybe she's just lying and it's not, but like, it seems like it probably is. I don't, I don' stand him. He's so pompous. A men's retreat during like her talking shit on Baldoni. Really curious how that comes across to Baldoni like they're They're still, I guess, on the same side of this lawsuit. See it being an interesting decision on Baldomi's part if he wanted to get out of like. Way this is all going to shake out is interesting because Baldoni could want to settle with Jones and kind of cut Abel loose and like say, hey, I didn't know she was doing all this behind the scenes. didn'T want to break. You know, like, I don't know what his liability is. That's another question for the lawyer. Baldoni were guilty of interfering with that employment contract, what even does that mean? Like what damages is that? You know, like I saw that. I

1:03:45 Thomas: Don't know.

1:03:45 Lydia: I mean, like, A like. Big feeling I have from this in particular, and granted, we aren't seeing everything. I know that. But it almost feels like this stuff was happening to Justin Baldoni, like and not not necessarily on his behalf or like with his, you like for this specific part of it.

1:03:55 Thomas: From this. Yeah, for this part of it. We have the text in the other one where he's asking why we need this, you know, which is. Yeah yeah.

1:04:06 Lydia: Of course. Of course. But this specific everyone's like talking so much shit about him, like it's really uncomfortable.

1:04:09 Thomas: Does seem way more like Heath in terms of the client leaving. Yeah Yeah. Interesting. That's Jones et al v. Abel et al. Yeah. Wow. Well we will keep our eyes on that and there is so much more to cover, but I did not expect that to be the, what a wild ride that is. And we have a lot of outstanding questions.

1:04:19 Lydia: Abel, et al. I know.

1:04:30 Thomas: I can't wait to see more on this. You

1:04:31 Lydia: Yeah, so we do know that there was an extension requested to file a response to this from the Wayfarer parties. I don't have a date for that, so that's something we can talk to the lawyer about when she joins us next time.

1:04:44 Thomas: Also the looming government shutdown. Well it looks like it's not going to happen, but that actually affects federal courts. But so that's interesting.

1:04:50 Lydia: So a lot of things kind of up in the air right now. But

1:04:52 Thomas: Here's other interesting note. It comes to Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni, we've got and countersuits. He comes to Jones and Abel, I just see Jones against Abel. Hasn't sued Jones, has she? So right now there's no counter complaint. Don't know what that means. Another thing to run by the lawyer. Like, it's one thing you can just respond defensively, but oftentimes there's a counter complaint because it like helps negotiations and like, you that's a federal civil procedure thing that I don't know the answer to. Like, if you're going to file a countersuit, does that part of that timeline? I have no idea. Or she's just not going to fail in countersuit.

1:05:03 Lydia: Maybe why they want more time to like it could be that they're preparing something beyond a response that

1:05:29 Thomas: I don' t know. Unless unless are severely different than we think based on this, Abel's in trouble here. Like don'' t see how she's not in trouble legally for this stuff. We'll see.

1:05:28 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shall.

1:05:39 Thomas: A way to get out of that would be oh yeah but I'm gonna sue jones for like bad treatment and yeah yeah and like maybe she'd have some claims there and know maybe then you you arrive at a settlement or something but we'll see

1:05:44 Lydia: Hostile workplace. Mm hmm. Probably should have done that step first.

1:05:53 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, you would think. Or be ready with it, at least by now. We'll see. All right. Well, thanks no so much for listening, everyone. Can We're people expect next time?

1:06:01 Lydia: Time, we're going to go into the law. We're going deep into the lie. I think we're gonna have some legal questions regarding this suit in particular, the causes of action.

1:06:06 Thomas: We're going to make our phone call to our lawyer.

1:06:11 Lydia: Are, we are going to make that phone call and open that lawyer portal and have them join us to chat.

1:06:16 Thomas: Can't wait. Looking forward to it. Will see you all then. A very damning text. That last one we wrote. First, that last one. Yeah, no, I'm actually doing this. Sorry, it's a big reveal. All the conspiracy theorists are going to pick Thomas. He actually wrote the text. What covers... What? And what And what covers he doing as in magazines, I guess. Yeah, I'll put your thing. And what coverage he doing at, at what covers Jesus and what covers, he's doing at

1:06:40 Lydia: One we read. Ooh, conspiracy. Like magazines.