Blake Lively v Justin Baldoni

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Clip: You must never, ever give up or give in. You must keep the faith and keep your eyes on the prize. That is your calling. That is you mission. That is moral obligation. That is mandate. Get out there and do it. Get in the way. Change happens because people care. The people have the power to make this life free and beautiful. To make this live a wonderful adventure.

0:00:38 Clip: I still believe with all my heart, America can be a place where no child is left hungry, no community is left behind, and no one gets told they don't belong. Country is always worth it.

0:00:58 Thomas: And welcome to Opening Arguments. This is episode 1131. I'm your host, Thomas Smith, and I've got a bit of a good news, kind of bad news, but mostly good news for you. Rapid Response Friday is going to be delayed and moved to Sunday night slash Monday. Apologies, no Rapid Response Fridays today. Be in a few days. Don't worry, it's the next episode. Episode, but it's for a very good reason. It's for good reasons and one bad reason. One bad reason is February is the dumbest month ever created, and given that we do is on a monthly basis, we have to do just as much work, but in two or three fewer days. I don't know whose idea February was. It's a stupid idea. They should fix that. The good news, the good reasons for this is Gavel Gavel is now public, officially. I'm gonna give you that first Episode here in this feed. Not the Trump trial. It''s something new. I'll explain. You'll hear in the episode. Hope you'll give it a listen. If you want, you can hop on over to Gavel Gavel right now. You can listen there. If you listen here it'll be exactly the same nothing's different except this intro but you're already here so you can finish it here if you want and then check out gavel gavel look it up on on every podcast thingy anywhere it's all up and there's going to be right now I believe at least two to three episodes ready for you and more to come very soon I'm super excited we've been working so hard I cannot tell you we've Been Living and Breathing and Sleeping and Eating and whatever other things this for this whole month. I kept thinking we could have it out earlier, but we just want to get things right. It's hard. It's a tough balance because we just want things to be good. That's a never -ending quest. So I give you the first episode of Gavel Gavel with the theme song that I wrote and produced and recorded and all that. Hope you'll give it a listen at 1x speed at least once. Here it is.

0:03:04 Thomas: To episode one of Gavel Gavel. Now, it's not technically the first episode because this show used to live only on patreon .com slash gavel pod because it was a spin -off to my other show, Opening Arguments, that covers legal news and politics. Gavel gavel is a show that takes you inside the courtroom, and our first series was the Trump trial, which we did more in -depth coverage than anywhere else by brilliant attorneys Matt Cameron and Liz Skeen, Liz being someone who actually practices in the very courtroom in which Donald Trump was convicted. And as there was no court audio or video available, we did something which I think was quite unique in that we did dramatic readings of the transcripts. And that's how this show was born. So if you'd like to check that out, that for now will still just be on Patreon. Eventually, I'll port it over to the public feed here. But for now, patreon .com slash gavelpod. So as we finished that up, we looked for what trial we should cover next. And there's so many possibilities. There are so many to choose from. Too many, actually. But then something came along that is not even a trial yet, but very likely will be, and I was very much drawn to it. And that is the conflict, the legal battle between Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni. Now, at first glance, this might seem to some of you like just celebrity gossip. Why is this important? Two rich people battling it out, et cetera. And I totally understand that first impulse. I had it myself. But when you dig into what's going on here, it is so much more than that. This trial, if it happens, is going to be so important, and it has implications far Far beyond just what happens to some actors. Digging deeper into it, what I see is a real battle for truth. It's the exact same battle that we face at a much bigger scale in our politics. And it involves the same platforms and the same people behind the scenes. One of the central figures in this lawsuit is somebody who has gone to great pains to be anonymous, to be unknown, to really be in the shadows. And it's alleged that he is capable of and is running a shadowy influence operation that is able to sway the opinions of people in social media, places like Reddit, places like TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, in a very sophisticated and effective way. At this point, it's only allegations. But what if the allegations are true? What if we are just being manipulated on a large scale? And if it's happening about a spat between actors, is Is it happening with things much more important like our politics here in America or even on a global scale? And if it is happening at a larger scale, how much could this trial uncover? Could a verdict with hefty damages have implications for that? Could it uncover more of this mass manipulation? Again, if it's true, maybe discovery will reveal how it's done. Maybe we'll learn more about it and what to look for and how to uncover other people doing it. But regardless of how it started, where we are now is it is so polarized, it is so heated, and people are so angry. And it happened in a flash. There's a group of people who are certain that Blake Lively was sexually harassed and that Justin Baldoni is a monster. And there are people who Are certain that he's not. He's actually a victim. And it's Blake Lively who is the abuser. And there's pretty decent reason why people are So invested in this and why it seems so high stakes. And it's because the actor Justin Baldoni, who is accused of sexual harassment by Blake Lively, was not just some actor. He is an actor who specifically has been vocal about feminism and equality. He's tried to be a role model on being thoughtful, on reflection, on talking to men about toxic masculinity. He's exactly the type of man, at least on the surface, that you would think would never do this. Here he is in a TED Talk that went massively viral right in the wake of Me Too. To.

0:06:38 Clip: Are you confident enough to listen to the women in your life, to hear their ideas and their solutions, to hold their anguish and actually believe them, even if what they're saying is against you? And will you be man enough to stand up to other men when you hear locker room talk, when you listen to their stories, when you see stories of sexual harassment, when you feel your boys talking about grabbing ass or getting her drunk? Will you actually stand up and do something so that one day we don't have to live in a world where a woman has to risk everything and come forward to say the words me too I can tell you that feedback is something that I rely on I ask all the women in my life for feedback I ask my wife for feedback it's not always easy to hear because when you're asking for it and you're asking for someone to be honest then you need to be prepared for the answer and the answer or isn't always pretty, especially with me.

0:07:17 Thomas: And here he is in an interview, seemingly self -aware, accountable, always seeking to improve. This is not just cherry picking a few examples. He has hours and hours of this kind of thing online. He Has a podcast called Man Enough, and he's hosted some genuinely thoughtful and interesting conversations. I've watched a few of them. And you could hear the emphasis just in those two clips on listening to women, even if they're accusing you, even if they'RE critiquing you, Even if they 'Re telling you things you don't want to hear. And yet, if Blake Lively is telling the truth, then all that was what? Was fake? Was lies? Was lies he was telling us or himself? That's devastating. That's just so agonizing to grapple with. Or he's telling the true, and Blake Lively is ruining the reputation of what might be an incredible guy. I mean, either outcome is just devastating in different ways. And if you hop on virtually any social media, you'll see people on either side of this who are strongly certain that they are right.

0:08:32 Clip: She was fucking lying. Right. This is a lie. This is why people don't believe women. And it's so frustrating for actual victims. I mean, this is just the worst thing you can do. It's obvious to me that Justin Baldoni is a victim of narcissistic abuse. I mean it's like textbook. Anyone who's ever been sexually harassed, we're just like, no, this is what it's, like, though. This is what its like. She is so tone deaf, honestly. Like, OMG, I'm amazing. Oh, yeah, I made a movie about DV. But, hey, let's not think about that. Another person said, I'm kind of sick of her, just sick of Hollywood in general. I mean, people already think that celebrities are so out of touch. Like this might have been just another nail in the coffin, even for a couple that is as beloved as Blake and Ryan. The fact that having mean girl allegations is far more damaging and crucifying than someone who allegedly sexually harasses women. The downfall of Blake is super important because it represents our collective awakening, specifically to celebrities that we should not be idolizing, and they hate that. The men who come on here and they are the guys who have evolved. They're the guys that are talking to the men when really they're talking to The Women about misogyny and the patriarchy and how we can break away from that and how they are The Champions of Women. Have we not seen over and over again those men be some of the worst perpetrators? It Ends With Us is the wokest lawsuit environment I've ever heard of in my life. Soon someone's gonna be like I was on set and I ordered tofu and it was touching steak you possibly have put a man and his family through literal hell for the past year or more and you think you're still untouchable

0:10:07 Thomas: If you thought any of that was intense, that is absolutely nothing compared to the comments. Places like YouTube and TikTok and Reddit are filled with intense hatred. To such an extreme degree, it's absurd. To the point where if you're someone who maybe isn't sure or has feelings but wants to wait till you see more evidence or just wants to even calmly discuss the side you're on, there is no place for you. And maybe that's the point. Maybe that's by design. And given the possibility of manipulation here, how much of that hate and anger is actually real? At this point, we know a lot of people are very upset about this. We know a whole lot of real people. We see their videos. We at least know they're real people, but how real are their views? Were they only stirred to anger by the manipulation that happened in the first place? How much of the comments were real? How much did they start as some artificial influence campaign, but then evolved into an entirely real swell of hatred? Honestly, how many people are really upset about that? How much manipulation would that even take? Would it take a lot? Would it only take a little? Do you just need a little catalyst, especially if you're trying to stoke hatred toward women? All those questions and all those stakes make this, in my opinion, such a perfect legal battle to take on here on Gavel Gavel. And I'm going to tell you more about how exactly we're going to do that and why we have a pretty unique perspective on this from highly relevant personal experience. And to start that discussion, to introduce my co -host, Lydia Smith, who I also happen to be married to. Lydia, how are you doing today?

0:11:35 Lydia: To be talking about this rabbit hole I've been living in for the last couple of months.

0:11:41 Thomas: It's a rabbit mansion. It's not. It's where we live already.

0:11:43 Lydia: That's true. It's a maze.

0:11:45 Thomas: Not Like You Were Distracted By It. We live here now. Literally live in Blake Lively and Justin Feltoni.

0:11:51 Lydia: Is most of our conversations lately.

0:11:52 Thomas: Pretty much. Yeah.

0:11:54 Lydia: What a ride this has been and it's only getting started.

0:11:57 Thomas: True. I can't wait to go through it. There's so much. For longtime listeners of Gavel Gavel, you might be wondering, where's Liz? Where's Matt?

0:12:04 Lydia: Where are they?

0:12:05 Thomas: We don't know either. So let us know if you see him. The thing is, Matt and Liz are both criminal attorneys. Matt is a criminal and immigration attorney primarily, and so this isn't exactly their area. And so, although we're definitely consulting with Matt and Lis, because it never hurts to have more legal eyes on something, we've also specifically consulted with a California -based employment law attorney, Because that is the area of law we're in, and it's the jurisdiction we're in. Although we're on federal court, it's federal court applying California law. So someone with very direct experience we're talking to on background, but we're also going to have a new attorney you haven't heard from on the show, and we'll introduce her later. But I do want to put a call out because we could always use more help and legal expertise just because lawyers are busy and their time is very valuable, and they're not going to be able to do it. And we tend to use a lot of it. So if you are somebody who has relevant experience to this case, please reach out. You can email me, thomas at seriespod .com. You can message us on any platform, any social media, anything you find us on. Please, if you think you might be helpful to this analysis of this case. Please do not hesitate to reach out, but yeah, Matt and Liz are taking this one off, but don't worry. This is buying us time to get to work on the next series to maybe get ahead of the game for once, and we've already chosen that trial. It's a criminal trial, and it's one I'm almost certain you've heard of. So excited for that. Me and Matt and Liz and others are working behind the scenes on that. So that's what they are doing. And also they're going to be on opening arguments and stuff from

0:13:36 Lydia: Yeah. Their day jobs, you know.

0:13:38 Thomas: They also have lives and jobs, but That's what's going on with the show. And Liz are very much still alive. I checked and they are still very involved. I didn't want anyone to think think they were like not on the show anymore or anything they now, if you'll forgive, a little more preamble. I know I'm heavy on the preample, but there are some very specific reasons that we both were interested in this case and have incredibly relevant personal experience, as I alluded to earlier. Long -time listeners will obviously know all this, but for any new listeners, you might not know. I and we actually went through an absolutely devastating legal fight for ownership of my main podcast, Opening Arguments. Previous co -host was was an admitted uh creep to people was exposed for it uh didn't support him and made an allegation against him. So he flipped out and in stole the entire podcast. And then I had to try to win back the podcast in court from the Harvard attorney attorney of the show. And massively long story that I haven't even gotten to tell yet, short, I did win the show back in a settlement. The way, we both in California at the time. So this was California courts, which is relevant to right when we started reading these complaints, it really stuck out to us how much resonated. Gone through something very similar and seen, yeah, I'll just say what a complaint should look like in my opinion, and what complain a complain can look like when you want to skew reality. The unsettling feeling that that's actually pretty convincing, I don't necessarily blame people who have been, for example, taken in by my previous co -host and what he was saying, because when you can shape that narrative however you want, and if you are someone who's creative at thinking of different interpretations of or of creatively leaving out things, creatively selecting certain things, you can come up with quite a remarkable degree, an alternate reality. In the pages of these complaints, we saw something very similar that was almost like, wow, this is like we're

0:15:37 Lydia: Spooky.

0:15:37 Thomas: In it again. Like it is. Including the fact that my ex -co -host hired a crisis PR firm and I got to see just how truly soulless and evil those people are and what they can try to do. And the fact that we had to write our complaints knowing an audience was going to read them and there were text messages and he was being incredibly dishonest in how he was framing it and which cherry -picked messages he was selecting so much in common it's actually kind of eerie all It's obviously it's not a film set, but I actually saw amount of the law was the same and amount of The Claims actually, I think are in common.

0:16:12 Lydia: Mention the social media scrutiny.

0:16:14 Thomas: And the Reddit scrutiny. Had sit silently through that legal process as other people tried to put the pieces together. And here's one that you might not expect that is a reason that I want to do this, that I feel like I cannot not do this story. We were sitting there with no ability to really talk about anything, the co -host had stolen the show and had the megaphone, essentially. And But so also legally, you're not supposed to say much. That put things in a tough position to be the person who's off the show, wanting people to know the truth. The on the show is pretending nothing happened. Happened, it making. I'll tell you what really bothered me was people who said, I'm out of it. Shouldn't even have an opinion on this. I for me in that moment, all I wanted was someone to take the time to actually read the findings, to take The Time to actually actually read everything. Was genuinely depressing to see how few people actually did that. Not that I think anyone in this Baldoni lively dispute is like powerless or anything. It's not That it's just, I know that feeling. I know how disappointed I was in people who didn't do the reading at all, and who were confidently spewing opinions about things without having done the reading. Reading. Be honest, it really depressed me that so when we saw this, it's like, I have a drive. I think we both have a drive to dig into this and get at what what we think the truth Truth is, to the best of our ability, by doing the actual reading, by going through the actual and not just a TikTok you saw or not just a video you saw, but to kind of an insane degree, documenting and tracking everything, the messages, the timelines, everything.

0:17:52 Lydia: The complaints, complaints, too. Not just within, right, but comparing it to other things that have been filed and either side of the story.

0:17:59 Thomas: I'm not saying we're the only ones doing that, but we're going to try to be the I don't know, reasonable and accurate. That's all we can do. Obviously, that's our opinion. That's just feel like I already went through something so close to this. That's like, oh, my gosh, I want to apply all this stuff I've learned. Like, actually matters in a complaint, all what that stuff. And so I am really excited to be doing this story, to be covering this.

0:18:19 Lydia: Too.

0:18:20 Thomas: Me too

0:18:22 Lydia: Other choices are Candace Owens, Megyn Kelly, Brett Cooper, Perez Hilton. So listen that gives me PTSD every single time I see their names.

0:18:27 Thomas: Or my old co -host and his enabling uh -house friend yeah uh

0:18:33 Lydia: Um also is kind of an interesting perspective that I think we can bring to this is that um know we don't act on a film set but we do have experience acting both of us and and have been materials that have come out as a result of this where people are interpreting it that don't have that acting background necessarily and how people feel in the footage that is you available um I think that's something that you and I are you know

0:18:58 Thomas: Yeah. That's least sort of versed in. Yeah. Have friends who do movies.

0:19:00 Lydia: Yeah and and and can probably interpret it in a way that um reasonable and informed by um know our experience in scene work and there are also other parallels that I think we'll be talking about along the way um we dissect all of this um those something that stood out to me um when we were talking about going on this journey together.

0:19:22 Thomas: We're going to go through this story and we're going to do it. We're going through the filings and everything so far, uh, kind of in the order that you would have encountered all of this information you were going through it in real time. We're going to react and analyze it in light of what know when we know it. So, you when we go into this, when we're telling you this story, you know what we know at that time. We're going to react and analyze it fairly and objectively as we can with that information in that time, which I think is the best way to do it. That way, we're not going to bring in anything from the future that we haven't told you yet. Because I know for going to be some number of people who are intensely into this already and already know a whole bunch of things. Guess is that's going to be a lot of people who know everything about it in their minds and a lot of people Who barely have followed anything. We are obviously going to do a show for everyone. So that would require building it from the ground up and taking everyone along the journey. So we're not going to, jump we're ahead. We're not going to skip ahead. We're going to go in that order. Going to know what we know. Yeah. When we know it. And we're We're going to provide that analysis. Now, being fair and objective, I'm of view. That's a different thing. That's an classic misconception. Objective to the extent possible and being fair is analyzing things as, as unbiased as you can, doing your best to account for all possibilities and all views and all that, it doesn't mean not forming a view about it. It's not as though we're not going to form our views of this dispute as we go. But it does mean we'll take on everything that anyone throws at us and there's so much out there on the internet.

0:19:47 Lydia: Merited. No Yeah

0:20:52 Thomas: We'll take it all on. We will evaluate it on its merits and we have no preconceived ideas of like who I don't know these people. I don' t care them at all. And as as I'm concerned, we're open to any and all possibilities here. So let's go on this journey. What do you think?

0:20:52 Lydia: Let's

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0:22:05 Thomas: Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices to to mention the premium fabrics and finishers. Am wearing shorts I got from Quince right now. Much have I worn them since I bought them? It's a Lot. Too much. Working work at home. Okay. Just have several pairs of shorts though. At least I'll have you know that from Quance and I wear all of them and I cycle through them. Super comfy and I like them. So indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quince .com slash OA for free shipping on your order and 365 -day returns. That's Q -U -I -N -C -E dot com slash OA to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Dot com slashoa. We're going to put in a phone call to our attorney here and joining us is Ann. How are you doing, Ann?

0:22:49 Anne: I'm great. Thanks for having me.

0:22:51 Thomas: We're not in jail or anything. This is just, don't worry. Just podcasting. We are in podcast jail we haven't been able to stop

0:22:56 Lydia: It's our one phone call we get like it's

0:23:00 Anne: I wouldn't be that helpful to call if you were in jail because I only do civil matters, but I would, yes.

0:23:06 Lydia: Dang.

0:23:07 Thomas: Can you help us sue us for always making us work all the time okay good all right we'll talk about that later for now do you want to introduce yourself and

0:23:15 Anne: Perfect. I'm Ann Linder. I am the managing member of ZVM Law, which is a boutique law firm with in Chicago, New York, and Ann Arbor. Disclaimer, views are my own. This is not legal advice. I'm not an employment lawyer, and so a a lot of the stuff we're going to be talking about touches on or lives in employment law. So just keep that in mind. But I am a lawyer who has almost 20 years of experience with litigating, corporate law, intellectual property.

0:23:43 Thomas: That's just from my case I

0:23:46 Anne: And that's just from your case. Sometimes we have cases that, yeah, age us 20 years. Yeah, exactly.

0:23:51 Thomas: Here's one thing that I know know deep that a lot of people I'm sure also know. Lawyer's time is very valuable. So we're going gonna manage all the schoolyard text bullshit stuff. Lydia and I will handle that. Can come in, hop in from time to time, set us straight on the legal nuances. Sound like a plan?

0:24:07 Anne: Fantastic. That'll just be several hundred dollars per yes or no.

0:24:11 Thomas: Love it. All right. Well, in that case, we're hanging up on your ass right now. And we'll check in with you later. Well having rudely hung up on our lawyer I'm sure she'll forgive us but I know I've sort of set up like Chekhov's lawyer there but don't worry that lawyer will go off but there There's seriously so much to get through before we need to start talking about the law. And it's the kind of stuff that Lydia and I are really good at. It's just research. It's deep research. It's cataloging texts. It's going through it all, cross -comparing stories, all that good stuff. So we're going to get started with that. And then when we're done going through all of that factual background stuff, we'll be back with Anne to talk about the Law. But for now... we want to make sure for anyone who lives in a rabbit hole, who hasn't heard of this dispute, going to give you the basics today. And by we, I mean Lydia. So, where should we begin?

0:24:18 Anne: I

0:25:04 Lydia: Should begin with It Ends With Us. We EndS With Us is a book by Colleen Hoover. It was published in 2016, sold about a a million million copies by 2019. with TikTok, it became incredibly popular. A million books by 2019 is still very popular for a book these days. There's area an of TikTok called BookTok. And in 2021, it really took off. And by 2022, just a year later, it had been tagged 1 billion times. Yeah.

0:25:34 Lydia: And sales of the books. They ended up selling 2 .7 million books by that point. Yeah. A huge, huge resounding success. A story that meant a lot to a lot of people. Uh is essentially about a woman named lily bloom um has a flower shop because her last name is bloom yeah uh and her first name is lily uh it talks about like um in particular two men uh she was younger with a boy named Atlas, and named Ryle and eventually marrying him and what that relationship looked like. What you kind of come to find throughout the story is that there's deep love there, but Ryle is not a good person. Abuses Lily physically, and story is really about Lily being able to break away from Break away from the generational, you of abuse and decide to do right for herself and her family moving forward.

0:25:45 Thomas: You going to tell us what kind of story it is? Okay. He on a map shop or what's so what's generational part of that

0:26:41 Lydia: Experienced very similar things. And so this was part of her life growing up and then, come you to find out she's experiencing the same thing and then figuring out how to break that cycle finally.

0:26:50 Thomas: Now was this autobiographical at all or is it entirely kind of fiction oh

0:26:55 Lydia: Is a little little autobiographical. So the characters of Lily and Ryle are based on Colleen Hoover's mom and dad. It is very, very personal to her. Understandably you know she has said know you that this was a book for her to write in a lot of ways um then also when she wanted to pursue it as as a potential movie option it was really really hard for her to figure out what that would look like too because of just the connection that she has to it and you relationship with her mom of course and And her mom is supposed to be Lily of,

0:27:02 Thomas: Okay very personal yeah and I don't know anything about her but I could imagine Imagine if it were me, you that's a very like personal story. And if if you, someone did a bad version of it, it's going to be like, oh,

0:27:36 Lydia: Think it's also worth noting that because it's such a personal story to her, when she was pursuing options, it was very important to her that she be involved in the creation of this piece.

0:27:47 Thomas: It seems like with how popular the numbers you're talking about, it seems like she probably, you had the ability to dictate a lot of that and that maybe if you're a minor author who had a had a very small book, but someone wants to make a movie out of maybe you're not able to.

0:27:59 Lydia: And so, Know, you we were talking about how it blew 2021, 2022. But I actually want to go back a couple of years before, back to 2019, when Wayfarer Studios, small production company, most people probably have never heard about before, acquired the rights to It Ends With Us.

0:28:16 Thomas: So they already had it before the tick tock.

0:28:18 Lydia: It blew up. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, popular, but not not TikTok popular, right? Not viral popular.

0:28:24 Thomas: Wow. But that's a very good investment on their part. Yeah.

0:28:27 Lydia: Yeah. Exactly. That's smart. And they acquired the rights. And, you one probably knew who Wayfair was before this lawsuit. We actually found out that they co -produced a that we really enjoyed on Netflix called Will and Harper, where Will Ferrell and his longtime friend, who is a trans woman named Harper, made kind of a road trip across the country and put themselves in situations that had fear about and some her identity fully and being comfortable in those spaces or being uncomfortable in those spaces and and without Will Ferrell, was I very well done. Wayfair Studios, their mission, and you'll see this with a lot of their projects, is is to develop and finance projects that can serve as true agents for social change. This is from their mission statement of their website. And which can eradicate the negative isms from our world. So they're very concerned about, you know, racism, sexism, ageism, ableism, etc.

0:28:42 Thomas: Good. Cubism, astigmatism, 0

0:29:26 Lydia: This organization was co -founded by Justin Baldoni, Another name that a lot of people prior to all of this were not super familiar with, I'm guessing. Was very familiar with him because he was most well known as Raphael in Jane the Virgin, and I watched that entire show. But he is a 41 who has recently moved into other areas of entrepreneurship. He has written a book. He has a podcast kind from that book where he talks about redefining masculinity. Did a TED Talk in the wake of Me Too. And then, of course, he started the production company known as Wayfair Entertainment at the time. And then they changed to Wayfair Studios in 2019. acquired the rights to It Ends With Us in May 2019, as I said, and worked closely with Colleen Hoover to acquire funding. It was very important to her that it not be funded off of her fans. She said that there was a previous project where where um was essentially crowdfunded in a lot of ways and her fans ended up paying a bunch of money towards mixed not actually being released and she was really really upset with that with another you know another uh story she was telling and so that was very important to her like the funding cannot come from them it needs to come from other sources And Wayfair Studios, you know, has like pretty decent pockets for an independent production company. They partnered with Sony to the financing of this film. As they're kind of stepping through all of this pre -production, which takes a long, long time to get through pre -production, they had an interview with Fast Company in September 2020, and Baldoni had that, you optioned It Ends With Us, he he had signed on to direct the film. Quote, but after considering the subject matter and who would be most suited for it, he stepped off. I realize this is a much more important project for a woman to direct, he says, and that's how we're looking at everything that we're doing, which is what's best. What's best for this particular story? Because, look, as a man, I can love this story and I can believe in it and tell it, but I shouldn't be the one to tell it. And that's also OK. What I mean about coming from a place of abundance and love versus a small place of fear and scarcity. It's got to be what's best for the project. That's not it ended up working

0:31:44 Lydia: Out. He did end up directing it. And

0:31:45 Thomas: Interesting how did that change take place or is that story for another time okay interesting

0:31:48 Lydia: Don't know. I think that's going to be a story for another time. Not something that has been publicly made available. Um simultaneous to him uh that he wanted to still direct it and continue directing it colleen uh hoover had actually suggested you know oh maybe you should act in it have you considered the part of ryle the uh interest who is abusive um he is eventually what came to pass um what I can tell they did not audition for ryle um auditioned for a host of other characters. Essentially, Colleen Hoover's suggestion that he would be a good fit for Ryle. I guess Baldoni ended up agreeing. And it obviously resonated with him. If you watch some of the interviews that he's done regarding the story, if you look at the emails between and Colleen, it is something that definitely resonated with him um so he was rile and then later at the very end of 2022 they were able to cast blake lively as the role of lily bloom this is a big get right wayfair studios is a smaller production company you cash reserve and things like that but they aren't doing like blockbuster movies and we're talking about um who who is very famous who has a very famous husband who has very famous friends um someone Who is you well known throughout Hollywood and she has been working in the industry for for decently long time um she actually her career it started with like a very small role in this movie called uh Sandman but then um breakthrough role was Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants and

0:33:13 Thomas: Forever ago though wow

0:33:14 Lydia: That so that was her first role and she she actually um filming it it was in between her junior and senior year of high school yeah when she was filming that and she really like her place on the scene really exploded with Gossip of Girl a couple years after that. Ran for many seasons. Also another show I watched, also watched Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. Then in 2012, she married Ryan Reynolds, very, very, famous actor, and they have four kids now. Going to be very important as we talk about what transpired the course of filming and post -production, etc. the full cast is announced at the end of January, January 26th, 2023. And then filming began May 15th, 2023. the film wasn't released until the following August, like a year and a couple months after that, And August filming was paused on two separate occasions. They had a writer's strike.

0:34:04 Thomas: You say they there was a writer's try it's not like this film right

0:34:07 Lydia: Exactly. Hollywood, all across Hollywood, any Hollywood Wood project, any project funded by major studios. You could apply for waivers if you were independent, specific things like that. But there was across the board, if you Were using writers affiliated with the union, there was a writer strike. Thereafter, there Was an actor strike through SAG -AFTRA. And that impacted their filming schedule, rewrites, things like that and kind of pushed the timeline out for this. I don't know that it necessarily pushed out the premiere date for this, but it definitely started bumping into other things as that timeline just got crunched, essentially. And as we're approaching the date, saw, you folks from the cast, Colleen Hoover, participating in something tours, and you Know, the press junket to help promote their movie, Um, with all sorts of folks, YouTube um, personalities, um red carpets for events, uh, you invitation only screenings. Like Entertainment Tonight, Access Hollywood, you sorts of places. And you have the actors participating in all this.

0:35:12 Thomas: The normal movie press stuff right yeah

0:35:14 Lydia: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And started to notice that Justin Baldoni was not at the same press events that Blake Lively was at.

0:35:24 Thomas: Just those two being separated or more than those?

0:35:26 Lydia: He was separated from everybody. So Blake Lively would engage in press and things of that nature with the actor who played Atlas, Brandon Sklenner, with Colleen Hoover, with Jenny Slate, who plays Ryle's sister in the movie, host of folks. Folks she was with them during press and Justin Baldoni he would still do press but he was solo was also happening at premieres that you would get the entire cast together um an example that I was thinking about uh there was a lot of a of drama potentially during press the tour and premieres. It was for Don't Worry Darling. I don't know if you saw that movie. I never saw the movie, but years ago.

0:35:42 Thomas: Interesting. Very weird.

0:36:06 Lydia: But it's Florence Pugh. It's directed by Olivia Wilde. Harry Styles is in it. There a lotof rumors like Shia LaBeouf initially was supposed to be cast in it and then some emails got leaked about him leaving the production. Anyway, that's a whole other mess for a whole other day but even then they had full cast pictures at their premieres despite the rumor mill going around about um not wanting to talk to olivia wild anymore like negative stuff was coming out we

0:36:04 Thomas: Is this? When Okay, hmm. Because of what? Does

0:36:35 Lydia: We don' t totally know I think there a lot about safety on set for that story as well um there were concerns about feeling safe around Shia LaBeouf um yeah and Wilde like referred to Florence as Miss Flo in an email to Shia and it seemed like she was trying to get Shia to stay but then publicly she was saying that she recast him because it way that he approached his acting was not making for a safe set um there's something going on there but But even still, with all of that, they still got together for a full cast picture, how Florence may have felt about some of those situations at the time. So this was very striking because the people who are watching these things also noticed that stuff for Don't Worry Darling. And now they're seeing something even more egregious almost with Ends With Us. And so initially some folks were theorizing, well, we're not supposed to romanticize Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni as their characters, Lily and Ryle here, because the

0:36:38 Thomas: Interesting. Comparison, I guess.

0:37:32 Lydia: Relation it's an abusive relationship.

0:37:32 Thomas: An abusive relationship, right?

0:37:34 Lydia: Right. Not Right. So a rom -com. So maybe there is, maybe this is a marketing decision. Maybe they're, like, trying to emphasize that we should not see them as as about one another in that way, like that they should not be an item in our minds. So, that was kind of the thought for a bit until someone started noticing what was happening on Instagram, which is is where it always goes. I can, you know, with a lot of the research that I do for various shows, I do spend time looking at follows, you who's commenting what, who liked what.

0:38:05 Thomas: Is is an element of research that I'm so glad I have you for because I wouldn't think of that but it's absolutely good information I mean yeah blew the lid off this thing in a way and

0:38:14 Lydia: Really did. And so the first piece to fall essentially was someone noticed that Ryan Reynolds had actually unfollowed Justin Baldoni back in June. So before months before the the movie came out, Reynolds had stopped following Justin Baldoni. And people were like, OK, something clearly happened. We're seeing this in the press tour. That's weird. And then Ryan Reynolds is now all of a sudden unfollowing his wife's co -star and co -producer. You very, very closely on this film. You start seeing other folks fall off of Baldoni's followers list. Blake Lively, other cast members, Jenny Slate, Brandon Sklenar, Hasan Minhaj. Hoover also unfollowed Baldoni. And remember, and

0:38:55 Thomas: Which yeah how flowery those emails are and how yeah

0:38:58 Lydia: That relationship goes back to 2019 before her book blew up, before it became a viral smash hit. They they were close and fair

0:39:07 Thomas: I don't know if we should say close um does seem like that very positive emails and very it seemed seemed like a meaningful connection in some way is

0:39:15 Lydia: Yeah uh all of these folks were unfollowing justin and so then people are trying to figure this out and no one can really figure it out because Because press the tour is vague, but not its that people really latched onto. So why don't you play that clip? Going to listen to a clip from Justin for interview he did on the red carpet for an event. And then we'll also listen to comment from Blake when she was doing a press tour with some folks from the cast. Yeah,

0:39:42 Clip: I can only imagine what was going through your mind, pulling Double Duty, directing and starring. What were you going to remember as being most special about pulling off Double Duty for this project? What comes to mind isn't so much about the work that went into it, but about the why behind it. What was the why for you? The why was that if a Lily Bloom in real life can sit in this theater and maybe make a different choice for herself and wasn't made for her, maybe she sees herself on that screen and she leaves the theater and chooses something different for herself. That's what I made a movie about. That's a beautiful why.

0:40:19 Clip: Would you be willing to entertain It Ends With Us 2 again in the future? Uh you know you have to ask me in a little while I think there are better people for that one I think they're better people than that one I think Blake Lively is ready to do that that's what I think so yeah I

0:40:44 Thomas: Interesting is an earlier um like oh no this is the actual premiere right so

0:40:48 Lydia: It's the actual premiere then why uh don't you play blake here's another example of what people were listening to during the press tour um this is with access hollywood okay

0:40:57 Clip: Justin also was off the charts and you really truly you you fell in love with both couples you know with Lily with both of them and Blake you always have a vision talking about how sometimes you weren't even the intimacy coordinator in some of those sexier scenes like we saw you that shouldn't be happening by the way um I just want to be clear that you should not be the intimacy coordinator you should definitely hire intimacy coordinators which we did have You weren't teaching Justin how to pull you in. You're going to love this. I just saw it too. It was on Instagram.

0:41:34 Clip: Yeah, I mean, I think that romance is really important. You're supposed to tell a story well and make people feel, but you're also supposed to do it in a way that is safe and respectful for all. So yeah, I guess that's the role of intimacy coordination. But when I think of my involvement in the film, I don't really see that as the thing that I did. I did probably everything else. You touched on everything else here and there. But, yeah, we were really lucky. I'm fortunate to be able to have had such an all -encompassing experience on this film. And Colleen, too. I mean, she's such a great filmmaker. You know, she was

0:41:33 Thomas: Who's

0:42:18 Clip: Really able

0:42:18 Lydia: I feel like people who follow celebrities probably like listen to that and they're like, huh, that's weird. So then the movie comes out, does really, really well. It's a very successful movie. I think it was 350 million.

0:42:33 Thomas: Reminds me how out of touch I am I had no idea this was even happening it wasn't A24 so I was like I don't know that's

0:42:42 Lydia: Yeah. The budget for this movie was $25 million. And the box box office return is $351 million. They did very well.

0:42:46 Thomas: Tiny wow that is very good investment

0:42:53 Lydia: Especially when it like wasn't even that good of a movie based on reviews. Like it's

0:42:57 Thomas: What did the critics think just

0:42:59 Lydia: Critics gave it a 55% on the tomato meter uh you audience score was was decently high 89 that's pretty good for the audience but felt that it was a mess mostly presented as romantic comedy um it's really almost entirely about domestic violence um Metacritic is 53 based 42 critic reviews and then 5.5 user score.

0:43:19 Thomas: So it's a very average movie not

0:43:23 Lydia: Average movie but made a lot of money like a resounding commercial success um not an artistic one I

0:43:30 Thomas: What do you think that's I mean I know it's hard question but I truly am out of touch with this stuff is that star power of blake lightly because I didn't think she was that big of a star is it that plus or is it the book yeah okay so the book just really resonated and

0:43:39 Lydia: Don't think so I think it's the book mm -hmm yeah yeah think the book the really pulled people in they did a lot for this this movie as well and they understood that the is really important to a lot of people. So like one of the events they did was at Book which interesting. That actually comes up in some of the things that we'll be talking about in future episodes. That was a press event that Colleen participated in and Blake ended up participating in it.

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0:45:44 Lydia: After the movie premiered, there seemed to be some intense negative press about Blake Lively. And necessarily start with this specific clip we're going to be talking But this went viral. Is Kjersti Flaa. She does celebrity interviews. So she, you as part of those press tours and things of that nature. And she posted a clip titled The Blake Lively Interview That Made Me Want to Quit My Job. This was August 10th. The clip is from 2016.

0:45:52 Thomas: 2016 yeah I actually remember this like I I wasn't following any of this whatsoever at the time but I do remember seeing like wait what's what is this what is happening and and if you don't know anything about anything it's kind of weird to see a clip from 2016 pop up that was a long time ago uh why are we seeing this now it's Kind of weird

0:46:33 Lydia: So, I mean, it just kind of starts right off the bat if you want to start playing it and we can kind of see what the vibe was.

0:46:39 Clip: Kjersti, congrats on your lil bump. Congrats on YOUR little bump. What about MY bump?

0:46:47 Clip: You guys do nice ones. I mean, they are kinda bumps, aren't they? No, not bumps. They're lovely lady bumps. Thank you, thank you.

0:46:56 Thomas: Looking at her chest. I don't know who that is.

0:46:57 Clip: Do you like the movie, and the video, Dan? I love most of his movies, and this one was so visually amazing. Yes. Yes gorgeous did you guys love wearing those kind of clothes that you I don't know if they would ask the man about the clothes first of

0:47:00 Lydia: Parker Posey. We can stop there. They go on and talk about out the clothes for for quite some time. But you can clearly tell that this conversation is getting off to the wrong foot now.

0:47:30 Thomas: Yeah, but also if you actually watch it, interview that made me want to quit my job, there's more, so this is a four minute clip. Watched a few seconds during which almost nothing happened. Said, oh, congratulations on your little bump, lump. It sounds like maybe like English is not her first language. Like was she searching for a way to say that and didn't get to it perhaps because just saying congratulations on your pregnancy, right? And like like Lively doesn't, if you look at her, I mean yeah, she's like congratulations on your little, I means it's almost nothing and they play it off pretty quickly redirect make it awkward And it seems like Blake didn't really like that attention to her, belly, her I guess, which seems legitimate to me. I will tell you this as I'm not a celebrity interviewer, but as someone who does interviews, this sure. That was slightly awkward, but that's nothing like this is almost nothing to to summarize this as an interview that made you want to quit your job. I'm just telling you, I don't know what's in the, what would that be for? Is there something else about this that made

0:48:23 Lydia: The the rest of the the interview is really like Parker Posey and Blake Lively interacting with each other and Kirstie Flaw kind of sitting there while they're while Parker PoseY and Blake lively are going back and forth talking about wardrobe and you know aspects of the movie that they want to talk about. Flaw doesn't really get an opportunity to ask too many more questions. And so I think it's maybe that feeling of being iced out of the interview she's supposed to be leading made her feel uncomfortable. Could could be considered maybe like a little impolite. Right. I of all, I don'T blame Blake Lively for for reacting in that way to that question to kick off an interview and like there trying to promote a movie and someone is now asking her about her pregnancy, which was not like a secret or anything like that.

0:49:05 Thomas: Be fair? Congratulating her but yeah yeah

0:49:07 Lydia: Congratulating her about her pregnancy, which wasn't a secret at the time or anything. But I feel like if I'm trying to be taken seriously at work and that's the first thing someone wants to say to me, like, don't know. It just like they don't know each other they're not friends um

0:49:18 Thomas: We look at this in the proper context which is a press interview about a movie there's this is really a zero there's nothing that this is a very minorly negative interaction uh they are not friends they're not there this is someone in a professional context and if you say something like that And then someone reacts in a way that's like clearly, oh, OK, they don't want to talk about that. You move on. That's no big deal. That is truly no big deal.

0:49:42 Lydia: And hopefully you can kind of get the interview back on track uh this video for flaw was huge like I said she posted this august 10th um it has racked up 6.6 million views um a 2016 interview clip.

0:49:57 Thomas: 6.6 million views. So much negativity. I mean, just pages and pages of comments about how horrible she is. I'll never see Blake Lively the same way again. Blake was so effortlessly mean. Don't get that way without practice. Like, it's just it's this is the kind of thing that, again, not knowing anything about anything else. I don't follow any celebrities. I Don't care about this. I barely knew who Blake Litely was. Looked at this at the time. I remember seeing it on Reddit. This popped up and I was like, what is this? Look at these comments. I I mean, they're unhinged. I lot mean – yeah, of people are unhinge on the internet. But this is like – a lot. I ,000 likes on these ones. This is a classic high school bullying method. Like what do you – was a very quick, -the -cuff response to something that Blake clearly found awkward. Just think it's so – it this is very minor. And posting it as the Blake Lively interview that made you want to quit your job is very... That feels incredibly dramatic to me.

0:50:23 Lydia: Mm yeah no I I definitely agree um

0:50:50 Thomas: And now that you got me down this this is a rabbit hole whatever of this video I am so into like separate the lawsuit like we're not even there yet I'm not even talking about any of that stuff I'm talking about in the moment watching this video and seeing seeing how people are reacting and how they're just universally taking Blake Lively down over this video. Just, just forget everything else. Just this video, it's hysterical. Like it's obscene. Like every single comment is going after her. I've heard this is bullying and you watch it and it's like that, this or whatever dress, you know, whatever that is. Was 10 ,000 years ago?

0:51:25 Lydia: Blue or black, white and gold.

0:51:27 Thomas: Yeah, that one, blue not that because that, well, no, it is that because there is a real clear answer. Although in that case, I don't really blame people for seeing it wrong because it's like the lighting in your, in your however

0:51:32 Lydia: I think I still see it wrong. But I don't believe there's a right answer. It's fine.

0:51:39 Thomas: I don'T believe there was a right answer.

0:51:41 Lydia: S fine. Fine.

0:51:42 Thomas: There wasn't actually a dress that if like what would would happen and if you saw it in real life yeah it's emperor's new clothes sort of there was no um But right where we stopped, we heard her say, everyone wants to talk about the clothes, but I wonder if they would ask the men about the close. And so after commenter, look at her weaponizing feminism, accusing her of not. And it's like, that's a pretty gentle way to make the point that maybe they're getting asked about the closed a lot. And And then they go on to talk about how much the men's costumes are really elaborate and cool. And so it's like, she hopes they're asking the men about them because they're really cool and they should talk about them.

0:51:46 Lydia: The dress was in your mind the entire time. Yeah. Yeah, it's also a common misgiving that celebrities especially have on the red carpet where the men are asked about the work and the women are asked what they're wearing, Right. Like I don't blame Blake Lively for reacting in the way she did, because that is it is persistent. It's pervasive, especially in Hollywood in

0:52:37 Thomas: Well, That seems like a very legitimate thing to, perhaps after a long day of press where you're getting asked the same question over and over, and it's about clothing, seems like an incredibly dealt, way to make a little point there. To say nothing of the fact, here's my bombshell after just being obsessed with this. Is deceptively edited. I'm I haven't seen anyone mention that because we get a whole bunch of cutaways to Kirstie. I have tried to track this down. I don't think this was released until Kirste released it. I Like, can't find it from back then. It was somewhere. I mean, it's hard to say for sure, but the point is like, this might've It's just been her footage. In I'm pretty sure it is.

0:53:13 Thomas: And she cuts a bunch to her just sitting there. And every time she cuts, I swear to God, this is starting to get tinfoil hat. I'm prety sure Blake was about to look at her. I think that at least some of the times she cut over to her looking awkward so that it wouldn't look like Blake was actually looking at her, I think this is some bullshit. Like, I think this Kirstie.

0:53:13 Lydia: It's her show yeah yeah

0:53:34 Thomas: Yes, I genuinely believe that. That because no sense otherwise. Like there's another interview from the same press store, exact same press store exact same setting and a dude and they they like look at him the same amount but it never cuts to him because there's no point you would never do this in a celebrity interview. You don't just cut away to the interviewer just awkward looking like you don't you only do that if you were editing auditing to make a point or

0:53:31 Lydia: Malicious yeah yeah right right like either it's the wide shot where everybody's in frame or you're focused on the celebrity that

0:54:03 Thomas: The interviewer when they're asking a question, which is what the other one with the guy does. Like it just goes to him the couple of times he asked a question. By the way, it's like the same amount of questions. Okay. I'm so mad about this. I've actually going to do a where there's woke. Like I have not only do I have that video, we're going to break that down like the Zapruder film. We're goingto break down this Kirstie one. I mean, I'm not even not even joking. Like I'm so annoyed.

0:54:25 Thomas: Yeah. Because it's just, it's just a bunch of people just horrible crap about a woman just on the wrong color of the dress. Like it's nothing. It's all wrong. Like, is why I'm doing this on where there's well, cause it's, I'm it'm, not even talking about the lawsuit. Like forget all that for a moment, just this one video and what people were were saying and how just unhinged it is. And when you compare it to anything else relevant, it's nothing. This is so obviously people wanting to hate on somebody and taking the excuse and running with it. And it's not as though the hate is 50%, 60%, 20%. It's a hundred hundred percent. You

0:54:25 Lydia: Enhance the metadata yeah yeah and they're enraged yeah

0:55:05 Thomas: And there's no, no other opposing voice. This is gosh, least when it comes to YouTube, when it becomes to the, the celebrity celebrity Reddit there's, precisely there're like one fucking place in all of the internet where you can at all see someone defend blake lively on this video and it's like the pro blake lively subreddit and that's it that's like one place everywhere twitter fucking tiktok universally they're going off about how horrible she is for the for the nothing that is in this video yeah

0:55:23 Lydia: Tick tock yeah if it were our two kids we would be singing that song that you started doing where this doesn't matter this doesn'T matter like we need to sit everybody down

0:55:42 Thomas: I made up a song for when they start bickering over nothing and they really yeah it is a lot like like that. Actually, this doesn't matter. This doesn't matter. Anyway, I'm not even joking. Go check out the show where there's woke. This will be out. It'll have a name on the episode that'll tell you that it's this and it, I promise it will be good because I have a ton of analysis of comparable stuff and you why this is obviously just misogyny and anyway, so I'll leave it there, but it's just infuriating.

0:56:14 Lydia: But from there things just exploded even more um you we initially get this first wave I guess of comments on kirstie flaw's video um now you know we have other clips from press that are going around from the press tour that are going around and I sent you another one this one was posted August 14th on Twitter someone clipped this from a interview oh

0:56:34 Thomas: Title ist Justin Justin Baldomi's PR could certainly be spinning things. Truly, I don't doubt it. But let's be clear here that Blake Lively said this entirely on her own. I know what this is. Okay, let's see what she said.

0:56:45 Clip: All say if we're lucky enough to run into a celebrity in public we only have a few moments to maybe speak with you guys but for people who see this movie who relate to the topics of this movie on a deeply personal level they're really going to want to talk to you this This movie is going to affect people, and they're going to want to tell you about their lives. So if someone understands the themes of this movie, comes across you in public, and they want to really talk to you, what's the best way for them to be able to talk to you about this? How would you recommend they go about it? Like, ask me for, like, my address, or my phone number, or, like. . . Location share? Or I could just location share you, and then we could. . ." Just a social security number? I'm a verbose. I'm like, are we talking logistics? Are we talking emotionally? Most

0:57:27 Lydia: You click on the next thing I sent where the interview continues I think it'll make make more sense and I I I think I kind of understand like the context of what she's saying here but let's listen to how the interview actually continues no

0:57:39 Clip: Could just location share you and then we could uh social security number I'm a verbose I'm like are we talking logistics are we're talking emotionally yeah what's been beautiful about this movie is that like unfortunately we all know at least someone but we we normally know like a lot more than some ones because we know some many who have experienced and

0:58:02 Lydia: Else playing on yours or is that the video oh

0:58:04 Thomas: I think that's from the movie. Okay, like the trailer.

0:58:06 Clip: Um the the beauty of this has been to see people and to see this movie alongside women who haven't experienced this thank goodness go whoa it was I I fell in love too I I I saw the red flags but they didn't look red they looked kind of fuchsia and cute but like you know I ignored them and I see why and the story is told with such empathy that I feel like this movie can be healing it can be a cautionary tale and it can also just and it could be inspiring so I think that the movie itself and colleen's work itself does that work and for anyone if anyone ever comes up to you and says that your work meant something to them outside of just having that collective experience in a theater where you laugh and cry and feel together like what a blessing like what you know the fact that gets to mean something is like yeah it's really significant

0:58:57 Lydia: Think lot a of people saw that clip and felt she was very being flippant like a you know Domestic violence victim comes up to you and starts speaking with you like, what would you tell them? And she says, kind of brushing it off and like, oh, should we start location sharing? And right.

0:59:12 Thomas: Asked like, what's like what's going on? What's the way for them to talk to you? I mean, again, I have not seen any of these before. Or you're showing me these for the first time, that seems nuts to me. I'm not going to lie. Like you tell a major celebrity, Hey, how can people approach you on a woman, by the way, approach you in the street and start talking to you about their deepest traumas, which get that that might seem insensitive maybe, but if Blake or whoever else is like well, well, don't that do that.

0:59:26 Lydia: Permission to approach you. Yeah.

0:59:39 Thomas: But like, imagine being someone where any number of millions of people might just come up to you and start trauma dumping on you. That's not a sustainable way for any human being to exist. So this seemed very silly to me that he would ask a question in that way.

0:59:54 Lydia: And think I that if she had time to, like, reflect on an answer to a question like that, it probably would have been more more But like off the cuff, I think she's just like, I don't want my privacy invaded like that. Like I'm not the right person for someone to come up to on the street and tell me about those things. Got a lot of backlash for that in particular. And

1:00:11 Thomas: By the end of that little segment, though, she has, you clear that like, wow, it's so meaningful that if people have that reaction and want to share that, like she acknowledges that that's meaningful. By the end of it.

1:00:23 Lydia: Yes. You look at the full video itself that came out August 8th, that clip that we started with was August 14th on Twitter. Same day, August 14, Glamour posted an article that says it's kind of breaking down how Blake Lively was interacting in the press tour and how she was engaging with the language and the rhetoric around domestic violence if it came up and they wrote you can see how lively's language distances victims from the abuse they've experienced when you look at the second part of her answer um says it ends with us covers domestic violence but is not about domestic violence and a lot of people are having problems with that too uh some comments about like like being victims that that Blake had also said during the press tour. And I think folks that have experienced domestic violence there are some that take issue with that because part of their journey to understanding what they're going through is to recognize that they are a victim of this. That helps them engage with the material in a better way, seek resources in better way. And I think there probably is some tone deafness. But at the same time, Blake Lively is not a social worker. She's not a psychologist. She's Not a researcher in domestic violence issues like there are things where I think we're expecting these picture perfect answers to reflect people's experiences. Experiences um the point where like people are commenting on her other press like on her instagram where they say um don't have the maturity required to respectfully represent the audience you were depicting in this film I'm deeply disappointed to witness the flighty tone and bubble -headed manner used in promotion of a story about a deadly serious subject another person I've always been a blake fan but the pr you've done for this film is beyond tone deaf it's offensive and self -serving dv is a dark reality for so many women and it's such a key aspect of the film. In this next piece, the way you're continually glossing over it and trying to capitalize on it with hair care products and canned cocktails is so insulting to victims of DV. This just ain't it. Like I said, pin that for a second. Clearly she She had struck a nerve with the way that she was engaging with the press for this.

1:00:57 Thomas: That's a pretty weird thing to say that it distances victims from their why so the whole atmosphere here was really weird it it was really um toward blake lively um I said the only thing I saw at the time was just I saw that video clip we watched before of that interview that bump thing I saw that on reddit that really engage with this kind of stuff so it seemed weird and And as you're telling me more about this, it seems even more weird to me. It seems like like an absolute microscope on somebody. Looked at some of this now after the fact, there's another little controversy that arose when she said that Ryan Reynolds wrote a scene. And after that, she more. That's like they help each other with everything. Thing. But then there was a whole series of articles about like, wait a minute, does that mean he was a scab during the writer's strike and all this stuff, which seemed very bizarre because we're talking about like a couple of words that were changed during one scene and then like that depending on the timing of when he might have contributed a couple sentences that that would make this huge difference. It just is. It's a lot. It just seems to me. I don't know. I Don't Follow Celebrity Crap. Is this how it always is? Maybe Maybe I don't know. Like, maybe it's always this crazy, but it just seemed like this

1:03:26 Thomas: Is a lot.

1:03:25 Lydia: Is another level. I this is another level. Honestly been overwhelming in a lot of ways, like just even consuming it months after the fact, Like it's it's it's a lot.

1:03:37 Thomas: Like, who has this energy? Lot of people, I guess.

1:03:40 Lydia: I mean, like, know, some you Twitter comments and stuff going after Blake. Lively is a C word. A piece of shit. Genuinely go fuck yourself. Like just really awful, awful things. You think Blake did hear the concerns about her approach to domestic violence in press tour. She posted posted a story on Instagram on August 14th that, of course, according to everybody who was upset about the press tour, this wasn't enough, this isn't good enough, etc., etc. But her comment said, or her story said, one in four women aged 18 and older in the U.S. alone have been the victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner their lifetime. Intimate partner violence affects all genders, including more than 12 million people every year in the United States. Deserves relationships free from domestic violence. The National Domestic Violence Hotline provides confidential support 24-7-365. To access the hotline or to learn more, click the link below. And then there was a clickable link. And for immediate help, text START to 88788. So was kind of this opportunity to address what people felt was missing from the press tour and these things that were happening in the press. Was an inside source, who knows who it is but someone had commented to people that Blake Lively was pretty surprised at the backlash and drama quote pretty surprised the backlash in drama that

1:04:53 Thomas: Yeah, I don'T blame her.

1:04:54 Lydia: Surrounded the movie's release they said she initially felt very vulnerable and upset during the promotion of the movie not one day went by when she was not in the news in an unfavorable light she's just not used to this kind of drama and that the situation felt out of control to her yeah I I don't blame her. It feels out of control, you

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1:06:43 Lydia: That was also posted on august 14th direct where comparison between how she was handling press tour and how justin baldoni was pressed handling tour

1:06:52 Thomas: It's Justin Baldoni versus Lively press tour.

1:06:56 Clip: So much about the work that went into it but about the why behind it if a Lily Bloom in real life can sit on this theater and maybe put herself, or maybe she sees herself on that screen and she can differ for herself.

1:07:12 Thomas: Just want to already point out, if we applied the same nitpicking level of microscope to him, I'd be like, wait, I'm sorry. Are you saying their choices are what's leading them to be abused domestic abuse are you saying they have the choice to just get out of it like you could easily do all the same stuff for him why

1:07:30 Clip: Here's Versace. The one one thing you want people to take away from this project, what would you say? Hope. That everybody has the ability to end a cycle that they didn't ask for. We can all say it ends with us in our life. That's great. Yes. What did you love about her? I just love that she was just like an amalgamation of contradictions that made perfect sense for her. So she's, you know, she's incredibly strong and self -assured and knows who she is. Yet she's vulnerable and she's tender and she gets lost. I love that he was, you, know, masculine and feminine. I love this like old things and then new shining things. And she's very utility and practical, but sort of over the top and glamorous in other moments. This is your night, Miss Lee. No, this isn't my night. This is a night for all the women who we made this movie for. It's in theaters now, so grab

1:08:22 Lydia: You you can kind of see a little bit of the juxtaposition of selected from Justin Baldoni's work during press tour versus Blake Lively's. Just some of the anger associated with that. Think there are some comments here

1:08:35 Thomas: This is ev magazine I don't know what that is but one one of of the tweets off of this by them is with more and more evidence pointing toward drama between it ends with us co -stars Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni and this is August 14th by the way it seems that the majority of the internet is siding with Justin due to his considerate and thoughtful interview responses what do you think about all the drama okay

1:08:56 Lydia: Yeah, yeah. The wake of of uh of this stuff there was a birthday post that blake's brother -in -law who's married buried to blake sister robin lively who was in the film her brother -and -law posted you know like a happy birthday blake post and someone commented um kind of calling out the way that blAKE lively was handling press for this and he wrote he commented back and And again, this is early. Birthday is August 25th. So wrote, I'm really sorry you feel that way. I'm sure you have a huge heart and want the best. I can promise you the truth has not come out yet. Worked harder on this film than anything I've seen her do in my entire life because it meant so much to her. The message is in the book and in the movie, not in short clips slash interviews. There's to some things going on there. August 20th, Brandon Sklenar, actually, he felt compelled also to stand up for Blake proactively on he basically said, you know, I wanted to take a minute and address all this stuff swirling online. Colleen and the women of this cast stand for hope, perseverance, and for women choosing a better life for themselves,

1:10:09 Lydia: And he goes on, but it's, out a like little more publicly as as August as, you press is happening over and over and ever. Early as Aug. 15, there were reports that Justin Baldoni fat Bat shamed Blake Lively. Sure exactly how that got out specifically. It became public knowledge. Is per Vox. It became public knowledge that Baldoni had hired a crisis PR manager on knew that as of August 13th. Struck me as like weird. Like like, why do we know that he hired a crisis PR manager?

1:10:44 Lydia: It is weird. Clearly, there you was intense negative press for Blake surrounding this movie. Then opportunities for people in her life and, you directly involved in the movie are speaking up more specifically. It was very intense. Like you know like I said some of those comments are just like absolutely horrific. Way that things are being reported on it seemed that um was a lot of concern about how blake was presenting her character the movie that she was um it as more of like a like a girl's night out

1:10:42 Thomas: That is weird you yeah

1:11:16 Lydia: Kind of thing um participated paid in promotion in for a hair care product that she was launching called blake brown um then also her like drink line um called betty buzz and they have uh non -alcoholic mixers and then I think they were releasing an alcoholic line um this press tour so it coincided and she was kind of wearing multiple hats and promoting those products alongside talking about the movie and were a a lot of comments regarding that and saying that um was blake lively the brand versus blake lightly the actor um was uh reporting in vox and um no comments about like it's not like she doesn't have another movie coming out because A Simple Favor 2 would be coming out later and she could have saved the hair care brand promo for that press tour. Why did she do it for this press tour? And I just want to point out, we don't know who decided the timing of when her product launches.

1:12:06 Thomas: Don't these celebrities just do all this crap all the time this just seems like par for the course talking

1:12:11 Lydia: And think I that deciding that Blake decided like is when I will do it, I don't you don't know. I think we have to make a lot of assumptions to get there.

1:12:18 Thomas: Seems to me again somebody not well versed in this it seems like kind kind of witch hunt in a way like it seems like people taking a few scraps of things that honestly I just don't seem like a big deal to me and the And Internet's going to Internet, but it seemed pretty, intense, like disproportionate to any that I see in there whatsoever. I mean, she's doing this project she's a part of the project that, you so much to so many domestic violence victims like it clearly resonated.

1:12:43 Thomas: The book resonated. A part of it. She name is a big part of why it's successful. Then to nitpick like exactly how she's doing all these things seems seems a little intense to me.

1:12:54 Lydia: Yeah. Agreed. That's kind of where things ended. Like, it was September, October, November, December, people trying to piece things together via social And the levels of Instagram unfollowing that has happened in this story in particular is remarkable. I mean, it's it's the new age of journalism, honestly, in some respects. So

1:13:17 Thomas: All we had. That's all that was happening. I imagine there's a lot of rumor mill and a lot of people coming up with TikTok theories and stuff, but nothing conclusive until an absolute bombshell drops on December 20th, a New York Times article that blows the lid off this whole thing. And by, among others, Megan Twohey, whose name you might recognize from part of the team that broke the Harvey Weinstein stories. I let's just say it answered a lot of all of the questions you set up in terms of why people unfollowed and all that and well hopefully we laid the landscape and I'm excited next episode to we talk about this bombshell New York Times article. We're just getting started, everybody. That'll