There's Something Deeply Wrong With Stephen Miller (And There Always Has Been)

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Clip: You must never, ever give up or give in. You must keep the faith and keep your eyes on the prize. That is your calling. That is you mission. That is moral obligation. That is mandate. Get out there and do it. Get in the way. Change happens because people care. The people have the power to make this life free and beautiful. To make this live a wonderful adventure.

0:00:38 Clip: I still believe with all my heart, America can be a place where no child is left hungry, no community is left behind, and no one gets told they don't belong. Country is always worth it.

0:00:58 Thomas: And welcome to Opening Arguments. This is episode 1098. I'm your host, Thomas Smith, and with me as always is Matt Cameron. How you doing, Matt?

0:01:06 Matt: Thomas, it's one of those days where I get to talk about something I know a lot about, but I really wish I didn't have to. And we're talking about Stephen Miller. The whole time. That's what we got.

0:01:13 Thomas: There's No beating around the bush, this is — uh, this guy, this guy sucks. How, how do you make this funny? He's pure evil and a being of pure evil conceived by the devil. There's, there's no sympathetic backstory here. This is just, we'll get to it. Anyway, we need help. And so of course we're bringing in Lydia Smith, someone who can't help, but make every situation delightful. It's Lydia Smith.

0:01:34 Lydia: That's really nice yeah I was just gonna say um I need to leave talking about Stephen Miller I'm like oh god here we go here we go. But yeah, I think I think we have some some little side notes, Matt, that like we can talk about it.

0:01:47 Thomas: Nothing about him that isn't weird.

0:01:49 Lydia: Yeah, that's that's true. That's true, yeah.

0:01:43 Matt: We can do this

0:01:51 Lydia: There's a lot going on here.

0:01:49 Thomas: So, oh boy. Yeah. Well, and of course, after that, we'll still have some time to take a bar exam question, which at least, you know, that should cheer us up a little. Hey, everyone can look at me, probably get one wrong. That'll be, that'll be nice little antidote to this So after the break we're gonna get to it. Support the show, patreon.com/law, look we're going to need a hell of a lot of money for to cover the medical bills for this one this is uh Matt's got a got a weird rash that hasn't gone away ever since I'm sorry to put you on blast matt but uh it's I think it's just from from looking into the abyss yeah, it's justearing in the unholy abyss that is stephen miller uh basically we could use your support patreon .com slash law and you'd lose the ads all after this we'll get to it boy.

0:02:25 Matt: On my ears just from listening to this yeah I think

0:02:38 Lydia: Miller.

0:02:40 Matt: I really wish we didn't have to talk about him.

0:02:43 Lydia: You're going to drive this one Matt but I just have a couple things I need to say. You know, like level setting here, he was nominated as the Homeland Security Advisor and the Deputy Chief of Staff for Policy. In the previous administration, he was the Senior Advisor for Policy and then also, of course, the Director of Speech Writing at the White House. He married a woman, Katie Waldman, in 2020 at the Trump International Hotel in Washington, D .C. attended, Trump gave a speech. And I remember when he got married, I was like, who in the world would marry this guy? Well, there was an article where they interviewed former college classmates of hers and someone, this is in Vanity Fair, someone said, the only thing she loves or values in this world is power. Anyone she attaches to in her life is simply a pawn to feed her addiction to it.

0:03:28 Thomas: When was this said about her? It wasn't said back in the... Oh, so they found classmates who...

0:03:30 Lydia: 2020, I guess, to about.

0:03:36 Thomas: Wasn't sure if you were going historical or not. Oh, okay. That

0:03:38 Lydia: But they basically said, you know, know they gave like in that Vanity Fair article they cited some times in college where she felt like personally wronged and how she acted out on the college campus to like try and get back at certain things but yeah yeah

0:03:50 Thomas: Sounds right.

0:03:53 Matt: Helped someone cheat to win a student election in college. And I saw another classmate saying, I question her ethical and moral fiber.

0:03:58 Thomas: She's really prepared for this job. Yeah.

0:04:01 Matt: Yeah, no, this is somebody, and it's a perfect pairing. She and Miller are perfectly, because I had the same question back then. And she's going to come up again in what I have to tell you about. But let start with my pet theory about Stephen Miller. And this is a little controversial, but I'm going to send it to you here and we can take take a look.

0:04:03 Lydia: It is it is yeah oh great

0:04:15 Thomas: He's a snake that a witch brought to life as a human?

0:04:19 Matt: Even better. I'm sending you both a link right now. But Prescott Hall, let me tell you very quickly about my man Prescott Hall from the 19th century, was obsessed with all of the stuff that Stephen Miller is obsessed with, the public charge rule, with limiting immigration to white people, with setting caps and quotas. If you click through, they are almost identical in my view.

0:04:19 Lydia: Nosferatu yeah I'm looking at that picture now wow

0:04:37 Thomas: We thinking a ghost situation? Possession?

0:04:41 Lydia: I was

0:04:41 Matt: This I said in this tweet, I'm not saying that Prescott Hall sold his immortal soul to push the devil's immigration policy for eternity, but I'm not not saying that he didn't do that or did do that. Um, just striking

0:04:52 Thomas: This guy's way hotter than Stephen Miller though.

0:04:53 Lydia: Gonna say he he also has more hair than stephen miller yeah

0:04:56 Matt: And the glasses you know it's the glasses of the classic you know different guy yeah yeah but because this was 19th century Stephen Miller. He was the guy, early 20th century. And it's an interesting coincidence that they happen to look almost identical.

0:04:58 Thomas: He has a stronger chin. Stephen Miller wishes, which is so funny. I mean, this is obviously shitty at any time, but like the closer you are to when this This wasn't even our country that existed yet. It's just so funny to me.

0:05:20 Matt: I know.

0:05:21 Thomas: Like five minutes ago, we like it didn't exist. Hey, we're all here. No one else. Yeah. What are you talking about?

0:05:21 Lydia: America first uh okay

0:05:29 Matt: Yeah. So one more thing before we get going back a little further in his life. I wanted to mention, since you mentioned Katie Waldman, there was a piece in The New Yorker that I read a few times way back when it came out. It's a very detailed profile we'll link to. There's a paragraph here. Know too much about Stephen Miller. I have to say, again, not because I find him interesting, but because I have too for work.

0:05:46 Thomas: Everyone who knows his name knows about too Stephen Noy.

0:05:49 Matt: But I know way too much because I read this profile. Here's a quote from the profile. And this is a meeting where he had just upset a lot of people because he yells a lot. He has a temper. Miller held up his hand to make a final comment. I didn't mean to come across as harsh, he said. His voice dropped. It's just that this is all all I care about. I don't have a family. I don't have anything else. This is my life.

0:05:59 Lydia: What

0:06:12 Matt: This is my life. Now this, this was published in February 2020, but he's talking about a meeting that happened in November 2019, the month that he became engaged to Katie Waldman.

0:06:11 Lydia: Year was that oh wow Wow.

0:06:22 Matt: Imagine reading that if you're Katie Waldeman. Like, I got nothing. I don't have anybody. This is my life, right? Like, you've just gotten engaged like weeks ago, maybe even like days ago.

0:06:30 Lydia: That's so crazy.

0:06:31 Thomas: Maybe it's a marriage of convenience. My

0:06:33 Lydia: Yeah. I mean, they said they like they don't go out at all. Just stay at home. They have three kids now. And yeah, they have three kids. Mm hmm.

0:06:34 Matt: Mean, yeah.

0:06:39 Thomas: They do. Oh, my God. That is horrible. I hate that so much.

0:06:43 Matt: She was Pence's press secretary. They met at work. Go back quickly here because I'm going to be drawing here from the book Hatemonger by Gene Guerrero. And by the way, live a life where you don't have a book written about you called Hatemnger, if you can possibly do that. I think that's what he wants, obviously. And I want to be careful not to feed the troll, because this man is a troll, just like Matt Gay is, just absolutely professional troll. And that goes back to high school, when he trolled everybody so hard all of the time that so many people who went to high School with him remember him. There was actually, at the time, a short student documentary made about him, about what an asshole he was.

0:07:17 Thomas: My God. Live your life in such a way. He's been a walking example of live your life in such a way that not this, you know, it's

0:07:18 Lydia: That is crazy.

0:07:25 Matt: And the Fool's edition of the high school paper had an article making fun of him, which was very funny. Like somebody who was obviously him, talking about how the culinary bland and overcooked food that is our American birthright, like in talking about American culture. Because Stephen Miller is from Santa Monica, California.

0:07:28 Lydia: My my god yep

0:07:39 Matt: So as I understand it, not a particularly conservative place famously. I've heard him, his family described as liberal in the area that he went to. But if nothing else, his high school was extremely diverse.

0:07:37 Thomas: Well written for. Yeah,

0:07:39 Lydia: Uh

0:07:48 Matt: It was not a white high school. And that was part of what radicalized him from what I can tell in this book is he

0:07:48 Lydia: Yeah yeah so

0:07:52 Thomas: To see non -white people. Yeah, get it, man.

0:07:54 Matt: Just having to be surrounded by them. And there's a local Latina student leader that he was kind of harassing. She saw him intimidating immigrant students, just walking up to people that didn't speak English and screaming at them in English just to go back to their country or whatever in high school, and she said, you know, he's a bizarre and lonely guy. He was a joke to me, but she said, I wish I'd been able to go out and talk to him at the time. Maybe, I don't know if I would have gotten through, but he was obsessed with the idea of Latino nationalism, basically, because there was this group, Mecca, that was at the that was part of this movement to kind of reclaim land and talk about how this is our land, because obviously, California was Mexico, as you know. And I don't think that's unfair. But of course, these are not people saying we need to remove ourselves from the United States. That's just kind of a nationalist rediscovery kind of movement. But that's one of the things that seems to have radicalized him at the time. I'm not going to make excuses for him. He's just been like this. There's nothing. One of his high school classmates, a reporter went back and asked him and they're like, well, I assume he was bullied. And the guy's like, no, he was the bully. He was never bullied.

0:07:59 Thomas: Jesus. No,

0:08:05 Lydia: Crazy yeah

0:08:14 Thomas: You wouldn't have.

0:08:49 Lydia: That's so crazy oh

0:08:50 Thomas: Wow.

0:08:50 Matt: He wasn't the bully, he wasn't He was the guy going around and yelling at people. Everything you need to know about Stephen Miller is going to be in the clip I'm about to play you. So in this clip from high school, he is running for class announcer, and this clip is from that documentary I was telling you about. Class announcer, the guy who's going to read the news, his early Goebbels origin story.

0:08:52 Thomas: Holy

0:09:06 Matt: So let's take a look at this speech, this very famous clip. No,

0:09:07 Thomas: Crap. Is

0:09:09 Clip: I'm the only one who is sick and tired, and when I heard what he said I was outraged because that shows such a shocking lack of respect english

0:09:26 Lydia: Whoever that girl is is yes

0:09:28 Matt: She's right. So first of all, of course, we all know you can learn a lot about a person very quickly by how they treat service workers, and this is consistent through his life. This is not just the one time. He would go up and tell his classmates when they were told by teachers to pick up after themselves, he would would go up after they were told that and say, make the janitors do it. That's their job. You can leave your shit here. And I is really all you need to know about this person is deeply, I means, sociopathically wrong. Don't know. It's just, it's pathetic. It is really the typical kind of weak bully thing. And this carried on, by the way, to Duke. He went to Duke University, and he was still talking about the same stuff, about how we have janitors for this stuff to is. And this actually almost caused a riot when he said this, that he had to be let off stage and people were booing so loud and screaming at him, to their credit. Good job, high school. But they were so annoyed that he was running for class announcer that they picked the other person who was running, who was a German immigrant with a thick accent, because they just would rather have

0:09:49 Thomas: Something deeply wrong with this guy I

0:10:20 Matt: That than actual German thick accent. Yeah, I'm sure he did a better job. But, you know, and it says a lot that this is also a very good way to understand Stephen Miller, that he wanted to be the class announcer because at the time he was listening to a lot of conservative talk radio. And so Larry Elder and Rush Limbaugh, big fans. So he started going on Larry Elder all the time as a high school kid, because he was articulate.

0:10:21 Thomas: Love that that is the best my

0:10:24 Lydia: My god yeah Larry

0:10:41 Matt: He was entertaining. He was a troll. People loved hearing from this high school kid about all these conservative opinions. He estimates he went on like 69, 70 times on Larry Elder.

0:10:34 Lydia: Elder yeah yeah so crazy

0:10:40 Thomas: God really he's

0:10:50 Matt: And yeah, no, it was like a job for him in high school. That's part of why he was so famous, because he started to do all this other media while he was in high school. And also was obsessed with mobster movies and would wear like these really extreme but what was described as beyond peacocking he wanted to model himself after like a character from Casino just yeah no total nerd all

0:10:49 Lydia: Oh my God that's so dorky

0:11:07 Thomas: Like just the essence of every detestable quality of a dude just was born and then the soul of that old racist was wandering around I was like I'm gonna jump in there and And then that's.

0:11:19 Matt: Exactly this is where fascists come from this is how they are made this usually there's a little more torture

0:11:23 Thomas: And so early, like you say, so early there, you just is just a fascist. Like, yeah.

0:11:28 Lydia: Him yeah yeah oh

0:11:29 Matt: Yeah some people are just locked into the guy they were in high school, like Ben Shapiro, right? He's definitely just the same guy that he was in high School. And I think that's what this is here. He just loves being a troll. His high school paper, he wrote that torture is the way to go. Torture is a celebration of life and human dignity. I mean, he's fantasizing about Bin Laden, about killing him, about the different ways we could torture him.

0:11:41 Lydia: My god what jesus christ yeah

0:11:47 Matt: Was radicalized by 9/11 as well. So this is the real origin story. He connects with David Horowitz, who is, I'm sure, probably known to you, but extreme right -wing guy, connected with a bunch of white nationalists, former Marxist, It's really interesting. He's actually much more of an interesting character. He was friends with Huey Newton and hung out with the Panthers, and he turned on the Panthers when he believed that they had actually killed a friend of his. I don't know if that's true or not, but he went hard right all the way the other way. And what's interesting too is he and Miller are both Jewish, but David Horowitz has specifically said that he thinks that Protestant doctrines and values should define America. He's all the way in on that, on Christian nationalism as well. An ongoing theme here of Stephen Miller being called a racist for some reason and getting really mad about it and denying he's a racist. For some reason, people are just constantly calling him racist. Yeah, I know. We'll play a clip of that in a second. But he went on to Duke University, and with David Horowitz's support. He actually got David Horowitz at one point to speak at Duke. He continued to propel himself along in a media career going on all these different networks. And David was introduced to Michele Bachmann by David Horowitz and briefly worked for her and then went on to his real sugar daddy, Jeff Sessions. And Jeff Sessions kind of shaped him. And there's an anonymous Republican said said that's where he got his master's degree. He was working with Jeff Sessions,

0:12:28 Thomas: Why bother, dude?

0:12:58 Matt: Kind of learning policy.

0:12:58 Thomas: I don't know, man. He already seemed pretty bad. I don'T like maybe maybe he taught Jeff Sessions a thing or two. Oh,

0:13:02 Matt: He was. No, it wasn't even that he needed to be more racist. He just needed to learn about how to do all this stuff. So he learned policy.

0:13:10 Thomas: Gotcha.

0:13:10 Matt: He learned legislation. He learned how to... I did

0:13:10 Lydia: The ins and outs the logistics yeah

0:13:15 Thomas: Was a real odd couple inspiring story of he helped him open a PDF. And then, you know, Jeff Sessions is like, oh, here's how you deport people.

0:13:24 Matt: The government. College, there was exactly one reason to be friends with Stephen Miller. And if you really think about it, you might be be able to guess, but when

0:13:30 Thomas: One day get close enough to him to kill him. I can't think of another reason.

0:13:36 Matt: Put on a suit, he could go buy liquor for you because he always looked like he was older than 21.

0:13:39 Thomas: Don't care. It's not worth it. Matt, that is so clearly not worth. It really

0:13:44 Matt: It's not. I'm just saying that's the only benefit apparently. There was an administrator at Duke that said that he stood out more than any student I've ever encountered. This is somebody who spent a very long career in many schools. He said the cockiness and the arrogance just were dripping off him in a way that you just could not miss. Just like one one of those people that you just remember because he just was like this all of the time.

0:14:02 Thomas: Just sucks, man.

0:14:04 Matt: No, absolute campus troll. He wrote a column called Miller Time where he, you know, has stupid opinions. And an immigration debate with graduate student Richard Spencer and Brimelow. Now we all know Richard Spencer, Peter Brimelow, also a very well-known white nationalist. He has since distanced himself from Spencer and said they weren't really friends or whatever, but Spencer has basically said, well, yeah, of course he's going to say that.

0:14:23 Lydia: Didn't Spencer say like prior to to Trump and stuff he was was like I was a mentor to Stephen Miller and then he's like I'm surprised no one's really talking about this I'm glad they're not yeah

0:14:33 Matt: No, in the book, Giroux

0:14:33 Thomas: What? I'll just put this out there then.

0:14:38 Matt: Giroux said, Spencer understands why Miller doesn't want to associate with him anymore. It's very clear. We get it. Else said of him that Stevens' angle was to start a tire fire and just keep pumping oxygen into it. And that's kind of what he's been doing. I have this quote, though, that I think really is something else to think about. And I think It it's should inform our coverage of Stephen Miller, how we talk about him, how we think about him. Exemplified better than anyone else. Now, this is a college friend or a college associate, at least. Simplified better than anyone else I've ever known a different life objective. Some people want money. Some people want power. Some People want influence. Some People want women. Some People want scientific discovery. And a lot of people run around not knowing what they want. Stephen very clearly wanted the tears of his enemies and then went out and got them. The tears of his enemies. So again, this is a troll who exists just to trigger people, just to make people upset. And he discovered that, I think he is sincerely racist, I'm sure he means it, but he discovered That's the fastest vehicle to making people upset so that's why I've always tried to have a level headed response to him. I just don't think he's all that interesting, because these people are pretty predictable. Know, you know exactly what they're going to do and how they're gonna be. That people are much more interesting when they're not that that predictable.

0:15:38 Thomas: Say I do think he is interesting as a real just grade a like the NBA of assholes. Like Like, I didn't know. That's an asshole backstory that's like, wow, he's He's the one. He's The Greatest Asshole. Like, he looks at people and he sees the code of just how to be the worst, the code going down. He's like I see how to troll every single line. This is amazing.

0:15:49 Matt: Yeah, that's right. It's profiles and fascism is what it is. I mean, this is just straight up, this where they come from, this how they are.

0:16:08 Thomas: He's LeBron James of being a piece of crap.

0:16:11 Matt: Lot of these guys do have, and that's why the reporter was asking, because you want to assume that he had something terrible happen to him in his life or that he was bullied somehow, but nope,

0:16:17 Thomas: We need to stop doing that. We need to start assuming that.

0:16:18 Matt: I know, Some people are just like this, and that's how they are.

0:16:20 Lydia: I know his uncle you know uh, out against him, but has his parents spoken out against his ideas yeah dang me neither just the uncle yeah

0:16:25 Matt: I looked. No, I couldn't find anything. I think they've been quiet. And they're pretty liberal. That was maybe part of his rebellion as well. Yeah.

0:16:30 Thomas: Wait, they are? Oh my

0:16:32 Matt: He was raised in a liberal household. Yeah, yes.

0:16:32 Lydia: I mean his grandparents were immigrants um

0:16:35 Matt: I meant to mention that. Not just refugees, but yeah, they were refugees.

0:16:36 Lydia: The Russian pogroms yeah yeah yeah

0:16:39 Matt: And his uncle denounced him in this political piece saying, how dare you stand up against everything that our family was about? Out like this is how we're here yeah yeah

0:16:48 Lydia: Like the grandfather didn't really speak english at all he came over just speaking yiddish and so now like stephen miller is going around saying everyone needs to be speaking english like yeah it's ridiculous yeah

0:16:55 Matt: His his whole life since high school he's been telling people that um just kind of fast forwarding here he, um, Steve Bannon, he gets more involved with Jeff Sessions, he starts doing Breitbart stuff, he makes connections at the Federation for American Immigration Reform and Numbers USA, which are the two hardest right restriction organizations, uh, are tied to the John Tanton network, which we're going to talk about another time, but hard, hard right restrictionist stuff and openly white nationalist connections, if not actually. One day he sees Donald J. Trump giving a speech about how bringing crime, they're bring in drugs. And he loved it. He just absolutely loved seeing Trump get up there and say these things. And He was determined to work for Donald J. Trump. He was the guy that watched this and wanted to get out of the campaign. So he hooks up with the Trump campaign and he becomes like an opening speaker for Trump, becomes like his fashy warmup. And he would get up and tell people like this to vote for Donald Trump is something that comes once in hundreds of years. Like we got to get out there and do this.

0:17:50 Matt: It's very true. And he went out and started writing for Trump too. So he wrote his RNC speech, the I Am Your Voice speech. Lot of the famous stuff that you associate with Trump speaking from a teleprompter at least, was written by Stephen Miller or at least edited by him. He's very young at this point. He's not even 30 while he's doing all of this.

0:17:49 Thomas: Not wrong yeah I think he might be my age or younger. I want one year older, yeah, not even 40 yet, but it's coming up real fast did

0:18:09 Matt: In '85. So yeah, So So at the American Carnage, best year of my life. Be good.

0:18:18 Thomas: I say that in a normal voice

0:18:21 Matt: Obviously, this is exactly what Trump needs, is a dedicated ideologue to tell him about how to handle immigration. Somebody who is as hard right and as far right as possible. And in ways that really, I think, are hard to appreciate. He shaped American immigration policy for four years. He created immigration policy as we know it under Trump. Didn't have any original ideas about this. But Stephen Miller, I mean, people talk about how he was thinking about the public charge rule in high school, like as a 16, 17 -year -old. This is something he's trying to think about how to keep poor immigrants out. At the time when the rest of us are thinking about, I don't know, girls and Star Wars and whatever, he was obsessed with this. So weird.

0:18:49 Thomas: Jesus him to be studied by scientists like I really think I think we should get him you know that prison they put magneto in in the x -men movie once this is all safe if I mean it's never gonna happen but if if I had if I my way we would put him in that prison and and just I would want to talk to his parents all the time we'll see if we need to arrest them but we'll find out you know like I want to know like how did how how does this happen was there lead in his water was know this is crazy, this is like from that young of an age in california in santa monica what do you have to be mad about like I that's remarkable but

0:19:30 Lydia: A liberal family. Yeah.

0:19:24 Matt: No, you grow up with hate in your heart and you hear conservative radio. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he just, he had to be around non -white people at high school and he was listening to Rush Limbaugh and Larry Elder. And I think that just starting with that hate in your heart, and having it amplified by that stuff, yeah.

0:19:42 Thomas: His parents were liberal man I don't get it like I understand I guess I okay I don'T KNOW THAT'S A WEIRD I DON'T I DONT know a lot of children of liberal parents who are like, I'm gonna rebel by being racist. I actually never heard of that before because

0:19:45 Matt: Rebellion. It's rebellion, I think. It happens think it might be happening. He comes in as Trump's immigration guy, and there's — ran into Cecilia Muñoz, who was Obama's immigration policy person, and she just politely asks is there anything I can do to help you know as you're coming into the job and Miller just straight up is like well how can I run the show like how can I run all of immigration policy can you tell me how to do that and she's like that's not how we do things we work together we collaborate with work together for the best policy. And he's like, no, no. I'm going to run everything. You have to understand that. And she said she walked away distressed from the conversation. She didn't know it was that bad.

0:20:26 Thomas: Every single person who's ever talked to him, besides Jeff Sessions and Steve Bannon and maybe Trump should walk away distressed.

0:20:29 Matt: That's true. Yeah, I think that's inevitable. But that tells you, I mean, that is how he did it. He just decided that he was immigration, and he started speaking for the president, and He started threatening members of Congress. He started threatening the cabinet heads, just pushing everything through. And He did things that Trump didn't even want to do. I actually sincerely believe that Trump did not want to end DACA. I've read the account of the last meeting that he had with some dreamers who, it sounds like he was actually maybe personally convinced they really believed it. But know how it is, the last person he talks to, and the last person he talked to is Stephen Miller, who tells him that they've got to cancel it. And I think actually, I really believe that he was reluctant to do it because he made Jeff Sessions go out and do it.

0:21:09 Matt: He didn't do it himself. He had nothing to do with saying it. And he even questioned it later. That's how extreme that Miller, working with Sessions, was able to get that program canceled, along with the Central American Minors Parole Program, along with TPS, along with quite a few other things. I mean, basically any given Trump immigration policy you can think of, starting with the travel ban on literally day one, when they started writing it. He and Gene Hamilton started writing it. And I will point out that Stephen Miller is not a lawyer. He actually did want to go to law school. He actually skipped the LSAT so that he could organize some sort of Islamofascism Awareness Week. So yeah, no.

0:21:39 Lydia: Oh, my God.

0:21:41 Thomas: It's gems. He just keeps giving. Whatever the story, it's just every single thing. Amazing

0:21:47 Lydia: Is that why he's friends with Gene Hamilton, though? Because Gene Hamilton is a lawyer. Yeah.

0:21:50 Matt: Yeah, and they share the same views on everything. And we can expect, we talked about before, Gene Hamilton will certainly be in the running here doing something right along with Miller the way he always has has been. At one point, it was becoming so obvious that Stephen Miller was doing all of this that Hogan Gidley, you might remember one of the spokespeople, one of my favorite names in the Trump White House, policies Stephen works on are not his own, but instead a faithful and vigilant implementation of the agenda Donald Trump brilliantly laid out. Pure fascism.

0:21:54 Lydia: And America first legal. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

0:22:18 Thomas: Also doesn't really sound like it's true it seems like yeah

0:22:21 Matt: Is not true at all. No, these are Stephen's policies, But I think it became so obvious they had to say that.

0:22:26 Thomas: You have to give praise to dear leader I might get in front of him I

0:22:28 Matt: Everywhere you can. And who came up in the Birthright Citizenship episode, one of their Claremont -type guys, said that Stephen would have been a lot more effective if he had more Stephens. And that is my concern, that he's going to have more StephENS this time around. Um

0:22:41 Thomas: Don't know if there are any more

0:22:43 Matt: Well, not — there's only one stephen miller but but

0:22:44 Thomas: Like it'S like lebron again it's lebrons yeah I on the lakers I need more lebronz I you're lebrón man I I don' t know if you can find another oh

0:22:50 Lydia: The growth.

0:22:51 Matt: The same time you think about this like the growth there you go uh just keeps giving

0:22:54 Lydia: Greatest racism.

0:22:55 Thomas: That's a gavel gavel reference everybody you need to be listening to gallo gallo all

0:23:03 Matt: But I do think, I mean he radicalized in a very extreme way at a time when people were not radicalizing that way. I do think there's a lot more Nick Fuentes types out there now that are willing to do this kind of, of stuff that maybe you're learning. I don't know. We'll find out. But more clip just so we can... There's another couple of clues here in this. This is a very famous exchange that he had with Jim Acosta. This was going to be our last mention of the Statue of Liberty. This is, again, the same talking point that the Statue of Liberty is not binding law, that it's just a poem. What are you talking about, Jim? This clip, there's something really telling that happens here. Let's play this.

0:23:32 Clip: Outside of great britain in australia is that your personal experience But that's not what you said, and it shows your cosmopolitan bias. And I just want to say... It's like you're trying to engineer the racial and ethnic flow of this

0:23:42 Matt: All All right. But just one One sec. Bias. I just want to stop on that for just a second.

0:23:47 Thomas: Couldn't even understand the word he said I

0:23:50 Matt: So Jim has just said, so you seem to want to limit immigration to just white people, basically. Of course, that's shocking. I can't believe you would say that. That shows your cosmopoliten bias. That is a very specific expression. And that is a white nationalist, white supremacist expression. It's always been thinly, not even thinly, antisemitic. And he doesn't even care, I don't think, at this point.

0:24:09 Lydia: That's interesting.

0:24:10 Thomas: Feel like that's — this is basic Ted Cruz crap, it's not latte sipping liberals

0:24:13 Matt: Cosmopolitan. Yeah, yeah. All right. But let's keep going because there's a little more here.

0:24:18 Thomas: From the country, you know, Santa Monica advocate

0:24:22 Clip: Country. That is one of the most outrageous, insulting, ignorant, and foolish things you've ever said, and for you that's still a really... The notion that you think that this is a racist bill is so wrong and so insulting. Jim, the reality is that the foreign -born population into our country has quadrupled since 1970. That's a fact. It's been mostly driven by green card policy. Now, this bill allows for immediate nuclear failure numbers to come into the country, much as they do today, and it adds an additional per -space system.

0:25:01 Clip: The people who have been hurt the most by the policy you advocated are immigrant workers, minority workers, African American workers, and Hispanic workers. We're going to try to lead the American community and run it up again.

0:25:22 Thomas: It's amazing that

0:25:27 Matt: So you get the idea. Learned a few things there. First of all, what happens when you call him racist or his policies racist is you get that very strident, you know, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. He does that all the time. That's like a very common response whenever anybody says anything like that. The bill he was talking about was actually one we We talked about way back when we talked about the collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge. You might remember the points that we had you, Thomas took the points exam and it turned out you didn't have a Nobel Prize and, you know, you're just not quite clearing the hurdle there. That was the bill he's talking about.

0:25:53 Thomas: Was so funny oh my god that was hilarious

0:25:56 Matt: And Jim Acosta is making a very reasonable point. This seems to be designed for white people who speak English. And he was getting very mad about that when, in fact, that was the purpose of the bill.

0:26:03 Thomas: I Love it, the policy you're advocating, is like, what policy am I By asking you about your policy.

0:26:06 Matt: Right. By arguing with me. Yeah.

0:26:12 Thomas: God, the fascist mindset, man.

0:26:14 Matt: Wanted to play that out so you can get a sense of what it's like to talk to Stephen Miller because that's pretty much it. Yeah.

0:26:18 Thomas: It's hell. I knew the

0:26:19 Matt: It's not pleasant.

0:26:20 Thomas: Minute I heard him talk, it's hell! I don't need any more information on that.

0:26:24 Matt: Is that a California accent? I meant to ask. I don't know what that accent is. It'S weird.

0:26:27 Lydia: Don't know what it is.

0:26:28 Matt: It' s a weird accent.

0:26:28 Thomas: It's a fascism accent.

0:26:30 Matt: I think so.

0:26:30 Thomas: It's like Roger Stone. I don' t know. Who does it sound like? It's just awful.

0:26:31 Lydia: He's putting it on. Yeah. His radio voice that he decided probably when he was a kid. Yeah.

0:26:41 Matt: Yes. Carefully practiced. I'm sure. Yeah it is somebody who's done a lot of media. Yeah. So So it is unusual because he is both an actual policy guy who does care and think about policy and he is a media guy. You don't usually get both of those things. Actually, I don't think he's old enough yet to run for president, but there is some concern he might be working on that track.

0:26:50 Thomas: Face for radio. Yes Yes, he is. What are you talking about

0:26:59 Matt: Yeah. Sorry. Sorry, nevermind. That's my math again. I froze him in time. To me, he's always been like under 30 and I've just, I thought he was like 34.

0:27:05 Thomas: He wasn't I guess he wasn't in 2016. Maybe, maybe that's what you're thinking. Yeah.

0:27:11 Matt: The time when he was relevant. Now he's relevant again, unfortunately.

0:27:12 Thomas: I don't think he he can't wait. Look, I get that we think everything is horrible, but you do still have to have some amount of charisma to win the presidency. Trump is very charismatic and to certain people. This guy is cannot win anything. Yeah.

0:27:24 Matt: That's true. Couldn't win an announcer in school. So it's true, you got a point there. But the at people from his past was concerned he might run for president. And, you know, maybe in 30, 40 years, people will go for it. Who knows? But let's hope not. Rare that I go for the idea that one person has that much control or is actually behind the scenes on so many things. But just judging from what we know and everything I've read, and I've read a lot about the way that the first Trump administration ran. He was immigration policy. Donald Trump just let him do it. And it's going to be so much more so this time. And I got very concerned when I just heard that clip we played at the beginning of Stephen Miller talking about the bill that he is going to help craft and get through Congress, because that is how it gets done. That is the only way that Trump's program is actually going to work. So that's something we're gonna have to watch very closely.

0:28:10 Thomas: Boy, I hate this, Matt. Really hate this. Really Don't want this guy in charge of any anything. Anything

0:28:12 Matt: Sorry, guys. Didn't want to have to talk about this, but yeah.

0:28:16 Lydia: Seen this uh anecdote about, um, know, synagogue, some said there were a group of students trying to decide how they were going to divide up the last piece of pizza in a fair way, and they're like talking about it, and Stephen Miller just slapped his hand down on the middle of the slice of the pizza. And the quote is, and of course, nobody would touch this pizza slice after he put his greasy 13 -year -old paw on it.

0:28:35 Thomas: It got more more greasy after that. Yeah, god.

0:28:39 Lydia: Yeah, so that's a great memory of that guy.

0:28:40 Thomas: What

0:28:43 Matt: Guerreiro, that actually reminds me of a sentence I wanted to read. He's introducing David Horowitz, I just love this sentence. Of habit, he repeatedly flickered his tongue while introducing his mentor.

0:28:53 Thomas: What?

0:28:53 Lydia: Weird.

0:28:53 Matt: Out of habbit. What a weird habit.

0:28:54 Lydia: That is so uncomfortable.

0:28:55 Thomas: Habit what What?

0:28:56 Matt: It's like a lizard habit.

0:28:57 Thomas: Is sorry, what is that yeah that

0:28:58 Lydia: Barty Crouch Jr.

0:29:01 Matt: Such a weird detail.

0:29:01 Lydia: That's who he is.

0:29:03 Matt: He flicks his tongue.

0:29:03 Thomas: The who said that and

0:29:05 Matt: Was Jean Guerrer, the author of the book that I'm drawing a lot of this from. Um yeah yeah when introducing him yeah it

0:29:11 Lydia: Whenever talking about David Horowitz yeah

0:29:10 Thomas: Miller did that? It does sound like the author's implying he's some sort of lizard.

0:29:18 Matt: Does because she mentioned it mentions it more than once that he has this weird way of licking his lips lizard

0:29:21 Thomas: It's not impossible,

0:29:22 Lydia: Boy lizard

0:29:23 Thomas: Okay? It's not impossible. Open Arguments is brought to you by Rocket Money. Can you name every single subscription you have? Because on that I could probably name 30 of them, maybe, maybe. And I'm not alone. Over 74% of people have subscriptions they've forgotten about. And but, but there's good news. Rocket Money, I don't have to remember every subscription or worry about forgetting any because can see them all laid out right in front of me. Because Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. It could see if maybe you signed up for the same thing on two different accounts. That's happened to me, where it's like one on a credit card and one on another credit card and you forget. Find that for you. You think about it, everything seems to be a subscription now so this really has the potential to save you money. Even better though because Rocket Money will even try try to negotiate lower bills for you, sometimes by up to 20%. They automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to save, and ask them to negotiate for you. Something I will never do by myself, but I don't have to because I have Rocket Money. I'm not alone. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash opening. That's rocketmoney.com slash opening one more time. RocketMoney.com slash opening

0:30:58 Clip: I just know, that you are gonna kick that bar's butt, out of here, you know, No.

0:31:03 Thomas: Right, Heather, time for another week of me failing an exam. How are you doing today?

0:31:08 Heather: Doing good, but I'm a little worried about you.

0:31:11 Thomas: Oh, oh wow, okay, what

0:31:13 Heather: Well, no, I mean, I didn't mean

0:31:14 Thomas: A start oh boy okay this is gonna hurt you a lot more, that's gonna hurt me, she said that.

0:31:22 Heather: For that to sound ominous. I just meant I'm worried. I feel bad. I know, I know.

0:31:29 Thomas: That's not changing what happened. Let me clarify. I'm very concerned about your mental health as a result of your terrible performance on this exam. No, that's not helping. Let me try again. You're really bad at this. No feels like a spoiler but we'd better get to the answer to question 50. The big 5 -0. Got my heart set on this this one, it's a big milestone. So I definitely have to have gotten it right. And any exam giver who would have marked me, down you on this one. Their humanity. But having said all that, remind us what this big question 50 was.

0:32:04 Heather: Thomas and Matthew were trying to get into an agreement. Matthew saw what happened with Thomas's broken gutters and offered to help fix them. Said that he had to talk to Lydia about it and to consult like any good husband would do. He came back about a month later and said to Matthew, hey, I'm willing to take you up on the offer. And by that time, Matthew said, too busy, find somebody else. So we're trying to figure out whether or not a contract has been formed between our parties, Thomas and Matthew.

0:32:31 Thomas: And I, you Know, I suck at these ones. They're tricky because

0:32:34 Heather: Contracts was my least favorite subject when I started law school, so I feel you deeply in this.

0:32:41 Thomas: You just want all of them feel like things that in real life, you should just be like, ah, just figure it out better. You know, there's a lot of like, yeah, okay. Offer, accept, just put in writing and make an offer and accept an offer. Why was we got stuff in mailboxes? We got stuff that, you know, it's all this weird stuff all the time. Just figure it out, everybody.

0:33:03 Heather: You did a great job identifying that this was a contracts question right away. Luckily for us, I love these calls of the question that just say, has a contract been formed? Yes. So we know we're in the contracts universe, you correctly identified. And our subtopic is also identified right there, because it says form. So we know that we're in the contract formation section. And this gets tested all the time. This is like one of the meat and potatoes kind of portion of contracts. So you can bet your hard -earned dollars that this is going to come up on the multiple choice question on the bars kind of question. So start here. Of the kind of threshold questions that comes up in contracts is what universe are we in? Because, yes, not like in the outer space place it

0:33:41 Thomas: I feel like that, if that's true, that should probably come up in all questions. All right. Step one, what universe? So are we in bizarro contract universe or are we in. Everyone's a lawyer universe. That would be awful. Or no one's a lawyer universe? I feel like that would make a difference.

0:33:50 Heather: Would but in in this uh particular situation it's are we in common law or are we governed by the universal code

0:34:00 Thomas: Oh, the UCC. Have to check is there gold fringe on the flag first. That's what we have to check.

0:34:06 Heather: Ucc just as a refresher for folks um it governs agreements for the sale of goods which are considered movable tangible items um and if both parties are merchants right folks who deal in those types of goods then special rules apply all other agreements are governed by the common law and those are things like agreements for the sale real estate uh there's like a service contract involved and that sort of thing So we're really just trying to figure out, are we in the common law universe or are we in the UCC?

0:34:32 Thomas: Interesting. One hand, I like that I heard the word merchant because I felt like I took kind of a flyer on that weird answer. On the other hand, I think you said if both people are a merchant, that's what changes the universe we're in. And now I don't like that because my answer B was no, because Matthew is not a merchant, but that wouldn't really make a difference in that both people need to be merchants universe. So that's my initial fretting, but fretting aside, continue.

0:35:00 Heather: Well, and that's a good way to think about it is, what's the agreement about here? It looks like that Matthew is offering a service to Thomas, right? Offering to put the gutters back together and to reinstall them. And that's considered a service, right, he's trying to do some good for him. That is covered by the commonlaw. Law. Instead Matthew is offering to sell him gutters, those are goods and that would be covered by the UCC.

0:35:23 Thomas: You know, what's funny. Done a lot of questions. Never heard of this unless I, I mean, maybe I spaced it out or maybe you are explaining it in more depth than I've I've ever gotten explained before, but I, I don't, man, I don't remember hearing about these two, these alternate universe theories. And it's really, that's very fascinating. And it makes sense. Cause like part of the reason I went with this, Matthew is not a merchant, even though I really regretted it. Cause I was like, it feels like it's not going to be right. It's probably not going To be right, but anyway, at don't mind if it's at least in the neighborhood of something that could have been right. Then, then I feel okay.

0:35:56 Thomas: But I felt like there should be different rules. You're like a business and someone, you know, you put a bid down for somebody that feels different to me or something, then then, if you're just a guy and you're like, Oh, I can help you with that. Let's see. I got some time, $1 ,500, you know, and

0:36:10 Heather: Well I'm glad that that helps a little bit. Yeah because we're really looking at like what's what's the issue? Are we talking widgets or are we talking other stuff?

0:36:16 Thomas: Okay.

0:36:17 Heather: Yeah and here we just end up in the common law. So brings me to your your answer choice, which is B. because Matthew is not a merchant. And that's actually a true statement. Matthew is non -merchant to our understanding. However, that's irrelevant because we're in in a common law situation. Say it only matters whether Matthew is a merchant if the UCC see applies.

0:36:30 Thomas: Wait, the oh okay so maybe I misunderstood I so thought Step one sounded like UCC applied if people were both merchants or something.

0:36:44 Heather: Oh, sorry. So step one applies when you're looking at what the contract's about.

0:36:49 Thomas: Okay, so just to clarify, it sounds like I misunderstood the test. So the first test is, are we selling goods or are we doing services? And so then if we're doing goods, then there's a second prong of the test, which which is, are we merchant to merchant or are we just people or something? So then what happens if you're in the goods part, but somebody is not a merchant, but, but we're still within the UCC. Okay.

0:37:10 Heather: Means that different rules apply because yes, absolutely.

0:37:15 Thomas: So, the goods gets us to the UTC period. I'm just trying to understand for future reference because I, which I will not remember, but I'm going to make it a try of it. So goods gets us to UCC right away, end of story. And then we're just, it would be a question of like, which rules we're in within the UCC, whether or not we're merchants or whether or Not, we're Just People. Okay. Okay, so because we are not in the goods territory, we are nowhere near that. And I see, now I see what you're saying. The merchant distinction already makes no difference here because we're In Common Law. Okay gotcha.

0:37:49 Heather: Perfectly reasoned. And so unfortunately, that's how B is our incorrect answer. So I'm sorry to have eliminated your answer.

0:37:55 Thomas: Not only no, but hell no. Like very early on. Gotcha.

0:37:59 Heather: But I think, but like I said, it is, we talked about it first because it really is a threshold issue that you kind of start thinking about when you get these questions. But you did hit on something as you were working through the questions that's at the heart of what this fact pattern is getting at, which is time, right? You talked a lot about time and the time period. That leads us to this issue called termination of offers, right, because sometimes, too, when there's an offer on the table, there's different ways in which that be ended or it can be terminated. There's a list, valid like revocation, revocation by offeror, rejection by the offeree, counteroffer, lapse of time, operation of law, right. We're in the lapse of time section, right? Because where are talking about time, the time period really is kind of at the core of this, whether or not that time period between when Thomas and Matthew were talking and they had that initial conversation, and then by the time that Thomas comes back to Matthew. So we're really looking at this lapse of time section. The rule for that is that generally an offeree's power of acceptance, right, so that person's ability to accept, it ends at the time stated in the offer, right? If a time that's stated in the offer then it kind of ends when they agree that it ends. The rule goes on to say if there is no time stated that it end after a reasonable period of time which usually depends on the the facts, or is it about 30 days?

0:39:11 Thomas: Wonder like how helpful that is. Like, oh, just a reasonable time. Awesome. Awesome. Is, is now, yeah.

0:39:16 Heather: Reasonable to who? Yeah.

0:39:18 Thomas: So I, if I accept on day 29 versus day 31, like what, it's just, okay. Is it, was that reasonable? I don't know. Well,

0:39:25 Heather: Let's look at answer choice C. Yes, because Matthew did not state a time period for accepting the offer. And it happens in contract law and definitely these fact patterns where somebody just doesn't say the time, right. Then again, what's the reasonable time period? Well, based on the facts. And we'll go from there. So C is definitely our wrong answer choice. And again, I think your instinct.

0:39:43 Thomas: At least makes me feel better yeah because so the logic of c is yes we do have a contract presumably because like the power power of acceptance, I guess, still exists. Matthew could have stated a time period that was like more, and that would have meant that the, we do have a contract, but Matthew did state a time period, which would contradict this answer, which like, I know sometimes I get fixated on those logic things, but I do think they pretty much always hold up if I, if I understand them correctly. And it sounds like this one did, cause like there was a, there was logical way that answer could could both be um true but true at the same time which tells me wasn't the right answer and at least can take credit for sussing that out yeah

0:40:25 Heather: Yes. Yeah, and that's, we get rid of D. So we're halfway done. We're out. B is out. C is out, and then we'll take a peek at D. because consulting with Lydia was not a rejection." So this answer choice is of it is true. Consulting with Lydia was NOT a rejection. Different ways to reject an offer, but it is truth that just because Thomas consulted with her, it didn't automatically reject the offer.

0:40:49 Thomas: In polite company it might be oh yeah let me check with the wife and I was like okay so no you know but like in as far as the law goes they're like well I didn't say no

0:40:57 Heather: Yes. And the other thing too is that answer choices like this can often be really attractive. I was talking to a student recently who was like, well, I saw two right answers and I picked the wrong one. And how did I get that? And I said, well it's about picking the best answer. That's kind of tough because oftentimes the questions will do this. It can be partially correct and, but it doesn't mean that it's the best one. Cause that's, I think for me, at least part of why these are so hard.

0:41:22 Thomas: These answers will be yes or no, because like, yes, because, and then the thing that they say, because is true and is part of a calculation of the answer, but it doesn't actually encompass the whole causality there. It doesn't Actually, like you can say like, Yes, because I was wearing a shirt and it's like, well, he was wearing his shirt, but that doesn't necessarily cover like what the the thing that was, yes, was, you know, like there's more to it and the wearing a shirt example might be dumb, but like there stuff that's more closely related, you know, that, that the bar is very good at like kind of tricking you with, but I think I'm maybe learning a little bit more here, how to, how to suss that out. And I I'm glad. So I feel good that C and D were at least wrong. Cause that was what was really giving me trouble. And instead of going to a, which I probably should have just gone to, I went to B. Oh,

0:42:14 Heather: No, listen, but you did a great job of eliminating those, I think, and for the reasons that you articulated too, as you were talking about them, right? Because you were feeling like they were wrong and the way that you talked through them was, yes, like these are, yeah, these are wrong and here's why. We end up with A, which is our correct answer. And I'll also explain why. A, no, because the offer had lapsed. So this also gets to our timeline issue. So there's an additional rule that tells us that when an offer is made by one person to another in a face -to -face setting. Only until the close of the conversation.

0:42:49 Heather: Yeah. And this makes logical sense in this scenario in which Matthew doesn't say how long the offer is open. So we are kind of left to until a reasonable time. But we have this rule that can kind of slide in and say, well, we've had this face -To -face conversation. Matthew hasn't said how long it stays open. So then we default to until the close of the conversation.

0:43:10 Thomas: Boy, I really obviously should have gotten this. Like that just seems so obvious in retrospect. I think I got tripped up by like remembering weird examples of contract stuff from before. I don't know. It's stupid. I should have just approached this from a very basic and rational perspective of like, yeah, this is like old timey timey times. You got, you got the guy. Oh, what was the reference I was going to make? You got the, what's the, you get the music man? You got a guy coming to town trying to sell you a monorail. I don'T know. I'm mixing up the Simpsons version of it. And then he's, it's like old timey, the guy vacuum salesman, you know, and he's actually, Hey, I can give you this for the low, low price of fire, whatever. And Then it's Like, yeah, you're, you'RE in person. You'RE making an offer based on that in -person relationship interaction. And it's makes sense to not be, I'm going to call that guy back from a year ago and be like, Hey let me have that vacuum. Damn damn it. My hands are tied. I got to give it to you now.

0:44:05 Heather: Yeah. And I mean, I think too, that's why sometimes these questions can also be difficult, especially for law students. And when you sit for the bar is because you get removed from the like regular everyday thinking of like a, you know what I mean? Like you're so far up the like lawyer thinking you're like, oh man, I forgot. Like it's just rational. They go, oh, well, yeah, yes.

0:44:18 Thomas: I really think that's what happened here because like, there are a bunch of weird contracts ones where it's like, yeah, oh, he put the letter in the mailbox and then a month later, it's still good. Cause it's like, ah, I got, I was thinking, I thinking too much about that dumb crap. And I let, I neglected, I, I am proud of myself for, for just not guessing C or D because like they, the, especially C was really attractive. Like that was an attractive distractor, but But I said, no, I'm not going with you because I know it's logically not, it doesn't cover everything.

0:44:32 Heather: The mailbox rule. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yes.

0:44:52 Thomas: And I feel proud about that. I'm going to latch on to that small, small, SMALL victory while I take yet another loss. And not only a loss, but a second chance bar exam loss. So yeah, that sucked. And I've now dipped below 60%, unfortunately. But the final answer was A, no because the offer had lapsed. Seems obvious in retrospect. Anything else about that answer we need to know?

0:45:17 Heather: But I think you hitting really clearly on the logic of why some of these wrong answer choices are wrong about not really completing the logic and completing the causality is really important when looking through some of these. So I really appreciate you hitting on that.

0:45:31 Thomas: Right. Well, I am unfortunately, sadly, 27 out of 46, 58 .7%, really on a skid, need to get that number up, we'll let's take to the airwaves, to the internet waves, to waves. I don't know. And see who the big winners are for this week. We've gotten to the point where we have to just have three winners because we've got three great places to play. We've Got Blue Sky, and don't you tell us who the big winner on Blue Sky is?

0:45:55 Heather: Got frankie williams um and I really like this it's so funny because as thomas and I were talking we both honed in on this answer right away um frankie says this I'm going with a using swiss law may or may not apply uh here when a contract is formed listen I hope I don't butcher this uh unter anwesenden probably I'm sorry in advance I'm meaning either in person over the phone, it is only valid for as long as the conversation lasts. Also, thank you slash curse you, don't know yet, for being part of the reason I want to study law. So that's exciting.

0:46:26 Thomas: So perfect. Yeah. And that's Frankie Williams with a Y at -R -A -N -K -Y Williams. And yeah, it is perfect because it is exactly what it is. It is funny to be like, well, I do not know if the Swiss law applies, but it is actually the same, which is cool. And that literally means but yeah uh a great answer and you did on blue sky hey everybody jump on blue sky and follow open um it's grown and grown over there it's really seriously it's the new twitter and I mean that specifically twitter and not X. You know, it's like it's like the new what Twitter was, but better and friendlier. And hey, I hear that the cool people are on blue sky. Got this cool friend. Heather is also on blue sky.

0:47:12 Heather: I am. Convinced me to go over there. It's been so nice to see my friends from Twitter. They've migrated in, like you were saying, Thomas, it's been a really nice to see how kind the people are over there. Really good discussions. A lot of like, again, that old Twitter energy in the good way. Definitely encouraging folks to come over.

0:47:30 Thomas: Right. And now we're going to pick a quick Reddit winner because Reddit is still a great place to play because they dot com slash R slash open args is a really cool community. Hey, it is. It's different. You know, we have different social medias for different things. And Reddit is its own unique thing that I love Reddit for many reasons. The OA subreddit, the OpenArgs subredtit is a great place to be. The winner there is Viking of Rock, who says, I think the answer is A. I'm applying my rule of guess what sounds right before you read the answers and then find the closest answer to that. In this case, my gut reaction was that it's been a whole month, which is plenty of time for circumstances to to change and for Matthew to no longer be in the same position to help Thomas. So probably the law shouldn't hold Matthew to his offer. This sounds like A to me. The contract has expired. To real life Thomas's point, I'm also going to guess that the law requires that verbal offers be accepted very quickly to form a contract, probably within a day or so, or maybe even within the same conversation. So

0:48:24 Thomas: That was kind of a different point I was making, but that's okay. Yeah, this is one, it just really blew this one in so many different ways. It's remarkable how much I should have just easily gotten this one right. You know, I'm just doing a new bit where I just get it all wrong for fun. Okay, now our biggest winner, our most important winner on Patreon .com, slash law, is Amina. Friend of the show, Amina, who says, Matthew did say I'll fix your gutters, $1 ,500 to pay, but Thomas waited, too much time gone by. Hi, now Matthew's busy and the offer must die. Can you take me higher to a place where deals don't expire? Arms wide open, the chance slipped away. Call a professional. That's all I can say. The answer is A. So that's a whole bunch of Creed lyrics from, of course, the Scott Staff reference. References last episode last week. So Amina wins, hands down. Sorry, that's going to do it.

0:49:11 Heather: What does that say about me that I would know a creedy lyric anywhere? I don't. That was great. Thank you.

0:49:16 Thomas: So funny.

0:49:17 Heather: Sounds

0:49:18 Thomas: Oh, good times. Well, congrats to our winners. Keep playing along. And, um, all right, Heather, I think let's do another question. I'm going to get my head in the game and, uh, get it right. That's my plan. That'S my current plan. So we're going to take a break. Gonna do a new question.

0:49:34 Heather: Good to me.

0:49:35 Thomas: Okay. Question 51, turning

0:49:36 Heather: State of Hawaii enacted a law that prohibited the sale of violent video games to anyone under the age of 18 and imposed a fine for each violation. Legislative history showed a concern that there was a correlation between playing violent video games and subsequent violent behavior in minors. BloodRage, a maker of video games, brought suit, arguing that the law violated its First Amendment right of free speech. Speech. Is Hawaii's law constitutional? Yes, because the state law is a content -based restriction. B. Yes because the costs of such a restriction on speech outweigh its benefits. C. No, because states have the power to protect children from harm. D. No because video games do not qualify for First Amendment protection.

0:50:26 Thomas: So this is a lot of stuff I should kind of know so uh the sale of violent video games to anyone under the age of 18 imposed a fine for each violation not sure if that matters legislative history showed a concern that there was so it's we got a concern that there's a correlation between playing violent video gains and subsequent violent behavior in minors. So that tells me that this will at least pass a rational basis, and it may even pass little bit higher than that, because this is, I mean, it's rationally related. At the very least, it passes rational basis. So we'll see if that's where we are. Blood Rage, a maker of video games, brought suit arguing that the law violated its First Amendment right of free speech. Right, so when we're dealing with First Amendment rights, we Constitution tends to care about free speech a little bit. So it feels to me like you're going to have to have a pretty good reason. Does it matter that it's minors? I don't know if it matters for this question. I'm actually not sure because so we're actually not suing on behalf of the minors, if that matters. We're suing blood. The video game maker is suing saying that it violates its First Amendment right to free speech to not be able to sell the game to minors. That's interesting. Let's see if we can get through the answers here. Right well after a little bit of false start that I've edited out in which I sussed out that it should be is Hawaii's law unconstitutional because the answers were opposite of what they should have been the first time I just thought it was like oh is this being tricky and then the second answer was like no this is definitely the opposite of what it means. So the question should read, is Hawaii's law unconstitutional? Yes, because the state law is a content -based restriction, you can imagine makes a lot more sense than if it was, is it constitutional because it's a content based restriction. But anyway, yes because the State Law is a Content -Based Restriction. Okay, so that has promise because, I mean, the way that this works, and I know that this is the way this works is I I think if conservatives in the 80s and 90s wanted, have been able to make this happen, they would have. And I Know That It Was Not Illegal to Buy Violent Video Games. They did the rating system and that kind of thing. And they did it with the, like rap albums and crap too, you know, like the adult content, you know, whatever that was. They didn't make it illegal. I feel like they would've, you you know, if they could have. So I feel like this is going to, this shouldn't fly. I don't think this should fly. But I will note that sometimes the bar questions do mess with you a little by choosing something that shouldn't lie. But because of the way specifically the question is structured, it might fly. So, I got to be a little careful. But my first impulse would be, no, this should not be constitutional because you are banning a certain kind of speech. And And that doesn't usually fly. Yes, because the state law is a content -based restriction. So is that the reason? Is that why it's unconstitutional? I think that's a strong contender. I definitely think that could be it. So I'm going to leave A as a strong possibility. Yes, because the costs of such a restriction on speech outweigh its benefits. Don't think that is the test. Think B is just saying a thing that seems like, oh yeah, it seems reasonable. Understandable but first off how would you evaluate that like what if that was the test you have all kinds of arguments about like well what is this costing you know and then how do you how do You make an argument for like well my ability to sell minors video games is worth like 10 utility points and this is costing 11 utility points so therefore you know it's like that's not gonna work so I think B is just a little bit of an attractive distractor we're not even gonna say say it's that attractive it's not even that hot b you're it's okay looking distractor b c no because states have the power to protect children from harm so that would be interesting so that'd be sidestepping the free speech issue and saying that the power to protect children from harm, which is not like a, I don't think that's in the constitution word for word. I think there's like the general welfare stuff, you know, like there's those sort of things, but I don'T, feel I like this is also just kind of not really it. I this is a general thing that would allow basically anything. Like if that's the rule, then all you have to do is say, well, this protects the children and then, you know, you can do whatever you want. I think this is not the issue. I think this is it. So I think C is just not, not the thing D no, because video games do not qualify for first amendment protection. Well, that's not true. Uh, that can't be true. Well shoot. I thought I was going to be between A and D, but that, that seems just bad. So, um, do not quantify for first Amendment protection. How could that be true? I guess I'm going to say I'm between A and C because I think maybe when we're dealing with children, there could be a different standard, the but that doesn't answer like kind of along the, like even along the lines that I was thinking. So maybe, so I think, I think A is like just the answer. I don't really, I don'T really see a good second answer, which scares me a little. So I'm I'm going to choose A, but I got to pick my second chance answer. I don't really like any, yeah. I think I'm between a and C, but it really, I'm just between a, and a, like, I think it was just a. So I'm going with a final answer. I, don't think you can do this. I think, I, Reagan and for matter, it wasn't Tipper Gore. Wasn't she into this or something? I feel like she was into something like this annoyingly. And so I'm gonna say A, answer A, you can't do, it's content -based, you're not allowed to do that because we have the First Amendment, but my second chance will be C just in case there's like some children exemption, but I'm don't think that's very likely. So, final answer, let's get back on track here. Final answer A. If you'd like to play along, go to Blue Sky. Okay, no, here's the order. If You'd Like to Play Along, make sure you're a patron on patreon .com slash law. That's where the best winners are. Like Amina. So cool. She's the best. She is a winner because she's a patron. Secondly, go to blue sky and follow open args at open arg. Quote tweet quotes, skiddy this, uh, post with your answer. Finally, you can also do like all three of those things, but also go to reddit .com slash r slash open arg, participate in that that discussion there. And you can comment under the T3B post and it'll track your score. You can interact with other folks there. Those are all the places to play. Right, Heather. Well, that's it for this week. Have to find out next week if I'm getting back on track finally.

0:56:49 Heather: M so excited and I'm really looking forward to reading everyone's answers again too those are it's always super fun and amina I think that was great that's I'm still thinking about that I'm probably gonna laugh about it for a week so yes

0:56:58 Thomas: Maybe we'll find out if there's a Swiss law about this one too. Too.

0:57:07 Clip: Thank you for being, say we started from the bottom, now we're here, girl.

0:57:16 Thomas: Now there's only one thing left to do, and that's to thank the amazing patrons on patreon .com slash law who make the show happen. And because it's so much more fun because I've been lonely without anyone here to do this with Lydia's back. How's it going, Lydia?

0:57:29 Lydia: Good. I'm glad to be here.

0:57:31 Thomas: Know it's the best. Nice to have someone else to partake with our amazing patron names. So we'll start with the newbies. Uh you so much new patrons jen kaberg merc async and cassandra hall that's awesome thank you so much for joining I really hope you enjoy the benefits the no ads and the goodies that the best thank you new patrons and now we've got to get to the hall of famers the all -time greats the ones who make the show happen more than anyone else they're at that $4 level and above for at last a month, the Hall of Famers, and they get the shout out each and every week. And it's up to them if they want to change their names every week, yeah. Did everyone else hear that? Or was it just me? I don't know if it was my internal, it's like the devil on my shoulder.

0:58:13 Thomas: Or if they wanted to keep their, a lot of them have the classic one that they've had forever so that's also another way to go yeah um And Lydia, why don't you start us off with the first half of our Hall of Famers?

0:58:12 Lydia: Do it. Yeah yeah that's fair yeah on gosh okay are you ready

0:58:26 Thomas: The honors. Yeah, this, by the way, this is a probationary basis. If she messes it up, she'll be out. Yeah.

0:58:26 Lydia: Are you ready okay I'll keep it cool james h vehicular

0:58:36 Thomas: Fired. No, it's not no good.

0:58:36 Lydia: Come on I said that perfectly james h vehricular man's laughter oh I just realized it's car from dub t dub he's so good at code names he can play it blind we love you

0:58:39 Thomas: I'm just kidding. Yeah, it'S fine. But it's such a great, amazing patron name for people who, the elite few people who enjoy the hangouts on SIO and WTW. So good.

0:59:01 Lydia: Yeah michelle chandler I am the better parent yeah sorry I

0:59:06 Thomas: Did they know you were going to do that? I didn't tell anybody.

0:59:08 Lydia: Don't know I don' t know it's freaky childless cat lady's local 47 chapter is she talking about me did I say that right because it's all caps should I take it a different way is she taking it a wrong way talking about my I don t know apprentice of adventure I

0:59:21 Thomas: You're spinning out. You're spiraling. Just do

0:59:22 Lydia: M spiraling caveman lawyer Justice is a dish best served with cold hamburgers. Cavalry. Nick Fish. The world's most reluctant ray of sunshine. A negative phenomenon. Side note, love Chapel Roan, and this is not your patron name, but feminine -omenon. Anyway, some people get it.

0:59:40 Thomas: You can't bring in tie -ins that aren't. No, I guess you can if you want.

0:59:44 Lydia: This is my time. Update, Ovechkin is only 26 goals from the record.

0:59:49 Thomas: I like how they capitalized the record, too. Kind of appropriate.

0:59:51 Lydia: I think that makes sense. I like that too.

0:59:54 Thomas: Still injured, so no updates there.

0:59:56 Lydia: Gotta fight for your right to ex parte jay sank can I get a choo -hoo and I was correct that is what they were going for yeah yeah chi

1:00:03 Thomas: We heard back from that patron. Thank you so much. That was, wow, yeah. You can get a Chihu.

1:00:07 Lydia: -hoo yeah test ease test ease interpreter oh great now I have to go back to changing my name every month kvetchkin about a vetchkin thomas freeman cajun killer fraud fishy hates everything chris simpson love the extra episodes oa out the queering cryptography conference at cryptography .lgbt

1:00:31 Thomas: No, I don't want to read any of them. I Like When You Read Them, but okay, OK, I'll read these ones. Liberals own guns to support root cause mitigation, not ineffective gun control. Hey, well, I was going to say that's an interesting tie in to, you know, certain murders in the news, except that guy wasn't a liberal, actually, I don't think so. Never mind. Not a lawyer, but I play one in court. I give up on funny names. I'm just Leo G for now. This isn't a Patreon name and I'm not reading anything now. I just personally think Legal Eagle is so handsome. Mark Schultz, the Cincinnati kid, Bob Loblaw's Law podcast. Podcast. Philly Basement Bar is back open and isn't taking this shit lying down. There you go, Philly basement bar.

1:00:44 Lydia: Found

1:01:06 Thomas: They were closed in mourning for a while. So I, yeah, that's good news. Big news. Yes.

1:01:05 Lydia: Their hope Mm -hmm.

1:01:12 Thomas: And it's our patron reads. Patron name shout outs. That's what it is. Edgy Veggie, hors d'oeuvres in the court before we report. Elect Thomas Smith President, American Honkytonk Bar Association, Baltakatei, Philip Kizer. If CEO shootings were as common as school shootings, I bet we'd get gun control.

1:01:16 Lydia: Hey,

1:01:30 Thomas: Wait, I just tweeted that.

1:01:30 Lydia: You just tweeted that. Yeah.

1:01:32 Thomas: Or skeeted, skadooted it. Maybe, yeah, okay.

1:01:32 Lydia: Skeeted. Skibbity. Wow.

1:01:36 Thomas: Well, weird. Maybe we both had the same thought at the same time. That's so weird. The 501st and Rebel Legion. Well I agree, damn it. Yeah. The 502st and rebel legion want you, cosplayers doing good. A string of unpronounceable characters. Milo Meadsong is on to the post conviction process now that a cert petition was denied hey what's the update on that is that just well maybe that's where it is because things take forever so who knows but it's been a while Malaika Chandler, Malcolm the Dragon, the Precious Variant, Big Easy Blasphemy, RhondaTheDork.com, FRED R GROOTHUIS, Chris Waltrip, Mitchell, and Classic libtard is on top uh, but only for another—probably this month will be the last unless anyone were to edit their pledge—uh, this Mitchell will take over, is on schedule. It's like an eclipse or something. You know, we know it's going to happen. I've been looking at it. Yeah, for months now, but it's happening.

1:02:27 Thomas: All right. Thanks so much, patrons. You're amazing. Thanks so mucho, Lydia, for doing the name reads better than I.

1:02:23 Lydia: Countdown. Wow, of course. Oh

1:02:32 Thomas: I'm already out of a job firing myself.

1:02:34 Lydia: It's fun.

1:02:35 Thomas: And we'll see you all on Friday.

1:02:37 Lydia: See ya.

1:02:38 Clip: This podcast is a production of Opening Arguments Media, LLC, All Rights Reserved. It is produced and edited by Thomas Smith, who also provided the fabulous intro and outro music used with permission.

1:02:55 Heather: So funny because I've literally looked at that I won't but I've looked at this so many times and I can't believe I didn't see that oh

1:03:01 Thomas: Can. I mean, my eyes skip over her entire words all the time because of ADHD we have we've had some funny like miscommunications Lydia and I were like the skipped over the crucial word you know where it'd be like not versus you know and like my eyes just like didn't see it and then we'd be like oh what's happening what what's that oh oh my god did this message say not instead of you know it's like yeah I just my eyes just flick around too much

1:03:13 Heather: What oh yeah thanks for catching that. I'm embarrassed, so I appreciate it.

1:03:28 Thomas: Would have been funny if I was not good enough at this to catch that though if I was like well it's no it's constitutional because of the content but you know that would have been weird all