We're In Serious Trouble

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Thomas: Well matt well everyone what how do where do we begin it's 2016 again

0:00:05 Matt: This isn't the night that we wanted. It does feel a lot like 2016. You know, the mistake that I made in 2016 was being around other people. And I'm happy to talk to you, but yeah, this is hard.

0:00:12 Thomas: I didn't exactly yeah I told people that I I said you saw on the slack you know people suggest a live stream I'll do I said no ever since 2016 I don't do that anymore it's not worth it I'm having I'm in the middle of a horrible anxiety thing my head is killing me everything hurts like it yeah it's it sucks, sucks um we are you know like it's the only difference between 2016 is things have gotten a little worse um I think the margin of victory might be more uh based if I had to guess um and that that doesn't mean the electoral the electoral count because obviously that you know it's kind of fickle because of just our stupid system but if I Had to guess I think trump will win by more more in terms of the votes he needed in the in in which states he needed uh you know like if you add up the kind of the lowest path and by the way this is uh obviously I can't I can'T edit I can barely be here let alone edit this I want

0:00:32 Matt: I feel you. Sure.

0:01:12 Thomas: It's important to be here I wanted to talk to you matt I wanted to talk to the audience but apologies there's not going to be any editing so when I fit whatever happens happens but yeah this is um I don't know if you probably didn't have a chance to listen to my where there's woke but you know I did put out one uh over the weekend saying this was probably going to happen and I I it was I was looking at polls I mean you you and I had a few interactions where you know I I feel like maybe our side was snoozing a little bit on the polls but I I did ask people in that I I asked like hey maybe I'm wrong or maybe the polls are wrong and give me a reason to think that and and honestly the Iowa poll gave me a little little bit of hope but it looks like that was that was the outlier yeah

0:01:51 Matt: That was pretty far outlier, it looks like, unfortunately. Yeah, this istuff. This is a hard night. And it's a good time to talk honestly and just process a bit but this is history it's not the good kind I was just listening to The Bends by Radiohead from 1994 30 years ago and such a great album we were actually playing The Bens last night in the band and I was remembering how great it was in 1994 to have somebody sing I wish that something would happen and mean it those are the times 1994 when we could actually it's hard to explain to anybody under 25 today like to say you know I wish that something would happen in 1994 but

0:02:10 Thomas: I love that album nice so did you mean that in like an end of history sense like oh we've kind of no seriously is that what that what dat meant yeah yeah no the 90s did feel that way in a lot of ways now that and that is always important to caveat that that's for privileged white people and a hundred percent.

0:02:37 Matt: That's how it felt yeah that's how it fell exactly yeah right that yeah of course but

0:02:46 Thomas: Um, but yeah, yeah, no, maybe I'm not. Yeah. I don't know. Is that true?

0:02:46 Matt: Everybody was better off overall um you know it's hard yeah it's Hard to average but I don't know uh no not everybody that's true that that is not true we've made a lot of progress

0:02:56 Thomas: But I guess just, we should just cover the basics here. We're talking at about 9 PM Pacific midnight Eastern. Um. I, I think everything's lost. Personally, I thank you. I thank everything's lost. I think the president's lost, I the Senate is obviously lost, and I think the House is lost too. We don't that for sure. There are people clinging on to hope, but I, I don't see it personally.

0:03:15 Matt: There's some hope there some hope

0:03:18 Thomas: I don'T see any chance. I mean, the New York times needle, uh, for what that's worth has, has been about 90 % Trump. Um, you know, that's, that they, that'S, I, here's what's, here'S what's amazing. You're ready for this? Everybody? Everybody. The New York Times has Trump winning the popular vote by 1 .1 % now. That's their projection.

0:03:39 Matt: I didn't say that.

0:03:40 Thomas: Now, I think there's a chance that what could happen is California will be like overwhelming and could overwhelm the popular votepart. So who knows? That's what happened. You know, in 2016, California ran up the score on the popular voting, even though it didn't matter, of course. But so who knows if that estimate will hold? Because it does seem like turnout is quite quite high. So if turnout's quite high, maybe California has high turnout. And, but again, this is meaningless. It doesn't matter. The point is if Trump, if, if New York times and they have all their stuff calibrated based on, you know, what counties have reported and which, but you know, they have all that stuff doesn't mean they're infallible, but it means I, this isn't a matter of like who's reported first and oh, it's a Marat. No, it'S not really any of that. That's, that's pretty much, that'S pretty much already accounted for. And this is just purely the best guess based on the data we have. And if he's going to possibly win the popular vote in this year of 2024, after everything that's happened, I don't

0:03:40 Matt: Salt in the wound. Yeah.

0:04:41 Thomas: See how we're keeping the house or winning, sorry, winning the house. I don'T see how that's happening. So that will be a trifecta. And this is, you know, a trificta after everything that he's put us through. Hey, just ticked to 91%. So yeah, no, it's we're fucked.

0:04:53 Matt: The worst case. The people I

0:04:56 Thomas: It's fucking over.

0:04:58 Matt: Want to talk to, just to change the subject very slightly, are the many, many thousands of people who voted to support constitutional abortion rights and for Donald Trump at the same time. A lot of those people tonight. And I'd like to know what's in their heads and how they think that works. I really would. Do they think they're bringing it back and electing him? I don't know. I kept looking at that.

0:05:18 Thomas: Yeah, I think that I wonder if the story will be that uh I wonder if it'll be sexism um I think I think maybe this country at least under the system we have is just not going to elect a woman like I I wonder if that's and and what sucks about that is no one will tell you that obviously there's probably so many people bristling at that all that's just your apologetics for the shortcomings of the democratic blah blah blah no it's not it's study after study reveals that sexism and racism. It's not a matter of people saying, hmm, I'm going to not like this person because they're a woman or because they're black or whatever. It is implicit biases. They think they're doing something different. They're saying, well, no, it's just this other thing. It's the qualifications. It just isn't. I don't know. I don't what the story will be. It will be interesting to see. Do you have any guesses as to what the story is going to be of why this went so fucking south yeah I

0:06:23 Matt: The vast decline of the American education system? I really don't now, honestly. There's no way for me to be able to predict what an entire country is going to do, but I didn't think it was going to be this, to be honest. Not quite like this.

0:06:34 Thomas: Guess I mean in terms of like the polls did show the polls were pretty 50 50 by the end um but I think that I think it's even worse than the poll because the you know our side was kind of like well the polls are just they're they're doing a thing where they're discounting harris because they're so scared of you know this exact thing of under predicting trump or whatever and so they're overcompensating that was the story and no it looks like looks like they were pretty pretty much dead on and or maybe a little favorable toward harris and I don't I can't even I can'T guess I'd like I seriously don't quite have a guess for the story new jersey by the way um here's an interesting one new jersey jersey uh she was what she won is winning by five points five points new jersey I biden biden won by like 15 you know like it's it's something's going on something is going on and I I think go ahead I yeah yeah

0:07:26 Matt: Very blue state. Yeah, I just keep coming back to the fact that they ran possibly the worst possible candidate that they could have come up with. Somebody whose whose brain is turning into oatmeal and running out of his ears in front of us. And it really makes me wonder what would have happened if they'd put up a competent fascist. It's very concerning. Very concerning.

0:07:51 Thomas: And there's I think the one silver lining for me at least in my own peace of mind is I don't, I'm not, I don'T think there's any plausible case that Kamala was either too far left, not left enough, like none of that fucking matters, it doesn't matter, there, there I, I don't even, I haven't even seen much of that, I'M sure it'll be somewhere, the, the far left saying she, it'll Be, oh, it's because of Gaza, or it's cause of, no, it'S not because of, none of that, it is, none OF that is responsible for this, this result, it''s just not, um, there''s no reason for that. There may be things around the margins, but this isn't a things around the margin loss. This is a catastrophic loss.

0:08:35 Matt: Yeah. I got to be honest, for all my optimism, I had been really trying for my own mental health just not to think too much about this possibility. And I'm absorbing it now, which I guess it's a good time to talk about it as I'm observing it. But just remembering four years of immigration law practice under Trump and what we're heading into.

0:08:55 Thomas: I want to ask you, I have a friend who is very important to me who is in the, I believe she's in the waiting period of the asylum claim. I don't know entirely the details, but what can he ruin with that quickly? Like Like, if someone's in that, like, waiting time of, you know, because it takes, what, five years to process stuff or whatever, nine

0:08:57 Matt: And, you know, nine or 10 at this point, potentially, for asylum. Yeah. So there's a few ways. I mean, honestly, they were experimenting with making CBP and ICE into asylum officers, which is a very bad idea. We have about 800 asylum officers in the United States. And hiring a bunch more would be the obvious solution, but I don't want this administration hiring and training them. So let's just hope it stays as it is and that these interviews carry on to the next term.

0:09:27 Thomas: Or ten at this point.

0:09:50 Matt: I don't know.

0:09:50 Thomas: Yeah, my thought, my first thought was, because we're talking trifecta. Right now, I'm operating under the assumption that this is a trifecta, which essentially means, I mean, and a trifECTa, assuming President, House, Senate, but really a trifECTA meaning President, Congress, and Supreme Court. So basically unchecked power, basically uncheck power. Power. And my first thought was like, again, selfishly for my friend, just thinking in those terms, like, well, maybe she'll be okay, because I feel like they're likely to go after, I don't know, I guess, illegal, in quotes, immigrants from south of the border first, but I don' t know. Like, what do you think, I mean, I gues immigration, on this short notice, this is not a prep thing, obviously, on the short notice. What is the most pressing danger in your mind? To a total trifecta Trump government.

0:10:15 Matt: Super trifecta. Yeah. That is not a question I thought we'd be talking about tonight, I got to be honest. But when it comes down to it, that means significantly more funding for immigration enforcement, which is my real concern. Because right now, the resources are limited and they've been trying to use them judiciously. And if you get the House and the The Senate agreeing on massive new funding packages for ICE. Trump had promised to triple the size of ICE, and he could do that. That's very much a possibility under this administration at this point. And we could be looking at the kind of federal, state, and local integration that I've been warning about now for as long as I've Been Talking About This, because that's where things have been heading. And so there's a lot to look out for. And I think that there's real potential here for this to go far beyond immigrants, far beyond people that weren't born here. And I think that we don't really understand the full extent of it yet. You know, again, I don't want to be too doom -rest right now, but I think we need to be honest about how we're feeling. And this is where I'm at. And, you know, I remember 2016, that feeling of just going home and staring at the ceiling because we didn't expect it. At least this time, you Know, and a lot of me did expect it, but like, it really wasn't something

0:12:01 Matt: We actually thought was going to happen.

0:12:01 Thomas: I didn't. 2016, I'd never expect it. I did not expect it in a million years.

0:12:04 Matt: I know, it's, I mean, I was

0:12:06 Thomas: A lot of people like to claim they did, but I don't know.

0:12:06 Matt: Trying to tell myself I was wrong, but, I know. Yeah, yeah.

0:12:10 Thomas: I think this time I did, honestly, and I mean, I put it out there and dub-dub-dub, like, and it's not, I just was going with the polls. I don'T, and yeah, and It wasn't good. It wasn'T good. And And I really, I hoped, I hope that we overperformed. For some reason, we didn't, if anything, looks like we might have underperformed, um, I think another difference is I think in 2016, again, horrible as that was, we, we didn't know what it would be like entirely. We didn't Know what it Would be like to have this fucking raccoon in the white house and what you could just do with just chaos. And in some ways that was worse but in some ways now it might have been better because now we do know, now we know and they know they know, they've been prepared, they're ready for this

0:12:10 Matt: But it was still in the moment. Yeah. Sure. Yeah, I wasn't looking at him.

0:13:02 Thomas: It's not his first rodeo now he knows he's going to go in there and eat his McDonald's and tweet or whatever and the evil fucking psychos that he's gonna put around him are gonna be really efficient and they're gonna do what they're going to do. Here's what I feel as, as horrible as this feels. And it makes me want to just retreat into a cave or something for the while. I feel like I really, our work here, I think is going to be really important, Matt. I think we need to keep an incredibly keen eye on what, what they're doing. I want to like, I really like, seriously, it's, it'S almost like in a way, knowing, knowing knowing what to expect and training our eyes on it and, and being able to respond in the ways that we can as fast as we can to what, to what they're doing, you know, like there's going to be a lot to track and we need to do that.

0:14:02 Matt: I'm ready. I'm very motivated. And I have been for a while. I mean, I was doing this all the way through the Trump years on Twitter anyway. So if I can start talking about it, I'm happy to do that. I think there's a lot to talk about. And we're going to try to cover as much as we can. And this country is going to be changing. There's no way around it. It's going to be changing dramatically from where it is right now. And it's going that we have to pay attention, we have to watch it. And I know that a lot of people have been trying to do that over the last nine years, but we need more eyes on this because I've never seen the kind of disinformation and complete inability to hold on to facts that we are seeing right now, the way that we're slipping.

0:14:40 Matt: I'm sorry, I really wish I could. I try to bring better news. I try that I'm optimistic about things when I am feeling optimistic, but this is not the night for it. This is just a very hard time. And it's okay to say that right now. I think in the morning I'm going to be feeling better, but yeah.

0:14:49 Thomas: We're fucked. Yeah, no, we're absolutely fucked. It's, it's, we're going to, we, we have, all we can do is everything we can and honestly now we need to look towards saving like what we can I mean this is in 2016 it was like oh let's stop the breaking stuff as much as we can let's see what we're gonna do let's whatever this is like now we're looking at irreparable damage and how much is he gonna do how much are they going to do how much of our democracy will be left how much of a choice will we even have in 2022 sorry in 2026 six, I've rewound a little bit, in two years, basically, in the midterms, like how much choice will we still have? How much choice will we Still have in 2028 is what is what we need to keep an eye on. I don't, I don'T know, like, I DON'T, I'm not interested. I've never been interested in doomerism. I 'VE NEVER BEEN INTERESTED IN OPTIMISM, I'M INTERESTed IN REALITY. It'S ALWAYS WHAT I 'VE And right now, in my heart, I don't know what the limit is, and I am incredibly worried about that. I don'T

0:16:02 Thomas: Know what the limit IS.

0:16:03 Matt: A Congress with no respect for democracy can easily rewrite the rules and rewrite the districts and lock us in for a long time. And that's something, I mean, everyone listening needs to find what their line is and hold that line. And we need to look out for our neighbors and we need be wary of the people around us. Excuse me, let me say that again, not wary. We need to be protective of the People around us and we to look for each other because that's all we're going to have, to be honest. Honest. We cannot count on the federal government under this regime. It's just, it's not something, certainly we just need to steer clear of it.

0:16:35 Matt: You know, I've been watching what federal law enforcement can do for 18 years now, and I actively fear it at this point, I have to be honest.

0:16:45 Matt: Well, I'm sorry. I'm Sorry that I have To go that far. But that's, that's how I feel. That's where we're at. But it is, I haven't been telling my students for years that, you know, you need to to be ready for the possibility, maybe it won't be you, but that you will know at some point in your life or be aware of an American asylum seeker, someone who has to go abroad to seek asylum from this country in Canada or the UK or anywhere else that'll take us, Mexico at some point.

0:17:12 Matt: And I'm not saying that's going to happen tomorrow, and I'm Not saying it's even going to happen in the next four years, but That's the path we're on right now. This is the path that countries go on. Yeah,

0:17:21 Thomas: Yep, Senate officially lost, by the way, that's called. It was already, but yeah.

0:17:25 Matt: I see the checkmark there. It was, but it's official.

0:17:29 Thomas: I think we're not long from it being called for Trump. It could be tonight, really. I dunno. I mean, the way the elections work nowadays, days I mean some especially some of these swing states that have the really long counting process maybe it can't officially be called but I I don't know I mean it it it might be able to be officially called tonight I don'T see I DON'T see much of a pathway at all um and it yeah that's I it's just I I can't after we've after all we've been through like after all WE 'VE been through um we need to find a way on our side we need to find away to disarm anti -woke nonsense like broadly speaking like it what what contributes to this is reactionary anti -woke panic we saw four years of of moral panics with the with the critical race theory with the whatever like like under Biden. And it, it always, you always hoped it wasn't working, but something was working like enough. I mean, unless you want to say this is just amnesia, unless, unless that's it, unless the story of the night is, well, the whole fucking idiot country forgot who Donald Trump is. Maybe. Cause that like, how can you vote for this guy? What, what is it? I mean there's dyed in the wool people who are just supporters. Sure. That's the basket of deplorables. It's the the garbage. We know that there's that, but that's pretty baked in. What's amazing is all the moderate, whatever, swing voters, all that stuff. What is their story? Their story, I guess, is the economy or some shit that doesn't even make any sense. He doesn't have better positions on the the economy. He doesn't have a better

0:17:38 Matt: Great. Yeah. Very

0:19:25 Thomas: Track record on the economy, he doesn't have any tangible real thing to point to, so I guess what I'm trying to say is, how do we get real reality to break through to a few more of our idiot people in the stupid states that decide our election?

0:19:25 Matt: Much the opposite not at all well I think that they're living in a different media ecosphere I think that's the first place to start I don't know what you do about that I don'T know how you break through with media that's actually

0:19:52 Thomas: That's what I am saying, that's the question that we have, I think, and there is no answer, I wasn't

0:19:55 Matt: I know yeah sure sure no I know I'm just I'm

0:19:58 Thomas: Posing it to you Sorry, don't worry.

0:19:59 Matt: I so I took that very seriously uh yeah sure but I really do though I mean I do believe that right now it is our immediate ecosphere and uh the echo chambers that people live in that is making this possible um and the way that we're self -segregating I really think that there there's an entirely different version of reality that every time I dip into it because I you know for for opening arguments I will listen to right -wing podcasts just to get the idea of what people are saying I will read right -wang media and to just try to understand the other side's arguments whatever they are and every time I dip my toe in I'm I just don't understand I it's it's another world it's another ecosphere like I said it's something we

0:20:02 Thomas: No, that wasn't that. Yeah, it's that's the question. Yeah. Yeah

0:20:37 Matt: Don't live in that

0:20:38 Thomas: I do that too and what I can't do the part I can do is I listen to her stuff which I had actually more than more than normal the last week because of what I thought was going to happen happening. You know, we watched the Trump New York rally. That's on Where There's Woke now, if you want to listen to that. It's important now since it's got a lot of, you know, his future fucking cabinet on it. Yeah, who knows?

0:21:01 Matt: Probably that comedian, yeah. Secretary of the Treasury,

0:21:04 Thomas: It's got Vivek, it's Got Tulsi, it'S got RFK Jr. Those are people who will be involved in the administration. Demonstration but anyway point is I can do the part where I watch and listen to their stuff the part I can't do is where somehow I have to think okay what would it be like for this to make sense to me like how do how do you hear the obvious lies it's just like it's not even hard to debunk lies it just lies who hears that and is like yep mm -hmm that's right I don't that

0:21:04 Matt: Where it works

0:21:38 Thomas: That part I don't get. I don' t know how that happens.

0:21:38 Matt: For me. Yeah. A little on the incoherence, if you actually listen to what he's been saying, especially in the last few months, that he has just lost it, really lost it. So, you know, there's no answer for me, I don't know that there is an answer, but it is anger, it's just, I mean, it is people wanting to lash out at, I guess, I I want everybody in Alabama to have free health care and free education.

0:22:07 Matt: That's what I really want for them. And I really don't understand the anger that comes up our way. And I really do wish you all the best, everybody in Alabama, even everybody who voted for Trump, and everywhere else. I mean, I just, I don't know. I feel like I remember a completely different world than we're now living in in the last 10 years or so, something else.

0:22:32 Thomas: Yeah. I think that there' s another, again, cultural memory, again. Getting even further away. We talked about it on a somewhat recent episode. This kind of eerie idea that I had that, you know, people who are younger, more and more, they're not going to be able to remember a time that was different you know like as as the population ages and as we go four more years a minimum into this fucking bullshit there that's that much more cultural memory of what it was like to have something resembling institutions something resemblling a working system uh that that slips away a little bit more a little little bit more and a little bit more and I don't it's not hard easy it's easy to put things back it's not it really isn't and we so the what we're gonna have to do is keep an incredibly keen eye on what they're doing it's gonna be multi -front war you know it's gonna be it's going to be organized it's to be more efficient it's be more competent than the first time there's gonna gonna be less distraction of him accidentally hiring people or appointing people that weren't insane like that's not happening that that that slowed him down a little remember like the first round of cabinet the first round of all that was like oh yeah they sucked but they weren't like nuts for the most part no not gonna get that we're just going

0:24:04 Thomas: Straight to fucking rfk jr

0:24:04 Matt: Now they're lined up. They're linedup already. Ready. And I mean, that is, as we've discussed from the beginning, this is the thing that I'm most worried about is the fact that they already have what they didn't have the last time, which is a full database of people ready to work and a plan to get their people into places that political people were not in before. And as you said, you don't ratchet that down. You don't come back from that kind of thing. And I just think one of the best things that we can all do is look out for the young people in our lives and remind them that this is not normal and this is not how it's supposed to be. The most concerning thing out of this election cycle for me has been reading about young men, especially young white men under 25, and where those numbers are going, and who they're listening to, and who their influences are, and what is shaping them right now. And the fact that we have an extremely conservative rise in young men and a liberal rise in Young Women, that young men are turning more to religion and young women are turning away from it, that is all precursor to fascism. That is all the kind of thing you need where you have have a bunch of angry, frustrated men, you know, in a country where women don't want to talk to them

0:25:08 Matt: For good reasons.

0:25:08 Thomas: Elon's last call, and I didn't get time to do it for Where There's Woke, but his last plea for this election was, hey, men, vote. Men, make sure you vote. Life and death, men. Make sure you vot. It's a matter of life and death. Men. Men? What kind of world? Like, what? And to 100 % back what you're saying, Matt, that is the intersection of fascism and sexism and misogyny and patriarchy. It's very dangerous. And that anger and that gender divide, it's scary. It'S

0:25:20 Matt: That's fine. Men, it's just the way they're talking. Yeah, it is. And those

0:25:54 Thomas: Very scary. Carrie.

0:25:54 Matt: Young white, especially men right now are the most dangerous thing in this country. And everybody knows some, and it's up to us to do what we can to steer them right. Because I really think that's, that's my mission right now, as much as we can, to try to talk with those people. Because that's something that we can all actually do, is to change the course in this county, is look out out for young people and just not let them grow up thinking any of this is the way it's supposed to be. And that's the only way we get it back. And, you know, I, I really do believe we can get it back because I've seen how it's opposed to be and I know that we have so many just incredibly talented young energetic people out there that could lead if they were given a chance. And you know, that things are going to be rigged against them and it's going to harder and harder. And we're entering an era where the president is going to able to commit crimes and that's going And I, even as I said that, even having processed that since July, that's still, that's

0:26:46 Matt: A heavy thing to say.

0:26:46 Thomas: His, yeah. Speaking of his, his trials are all done, right? I mean, he's out, he's right. I mean what, what happens?

0:26:55 Matt: We're going to break that down pretty soon. I'm not, I can't go there right now, but I, I've been wondering for a while, the limits.

0:26:58 Thomas: He once again evades accountability. It's

0:27:02 Matt: For sure. For sure, yeah, no, in, in a certain horrific, dark, horrible way, it is an incredible comeback story for a guy that I thought was really going to be irrelevant.

0:27:02 Thomas: There's no, yep.

0:27:14 Matt: But for, you know, and let's see if his, maybe his, his brain and body don't make it, um you know I'm not even saying death I'm just saying he's not in good shape right now um

0:27:22 Thomas: Yeah but I think he's mostly just exhausted. I think it'll be fine. We'll see.

0:27:26 Matt: Yeah that's true and we don't want a president vance either so that's not what I'm saying uh it's not better that's no better at all yeah I'm

0:27:32 Thomas: All right well we're gonna be doing that work I mean we've got our assignment and we've our assignments

0:27:39 Matt: Here for it I'm absolutely and I have been from the beginning yeah no this is important and uh

0:27:42 Thomas: I'm gonna be thinking a lot about like what whatever we've been doing just all of us whatever we're been doing it's not working it's just not you know whatever it is for for some reason I don't I that's I'm very curious to see the post -mortems from different people and I don'T know how easy it will be to do that but the I DON'T think it's any one thing um we'll see but like the bottom line is something something is not working something is NOT working and I DON't know I I think that if I'm being honest with myself like Like as much as we still try to, we've been trying to debunk stuff on where there's woke, largely because I have felt like that anti -woke backlash, that reactionary backlash I mentioned earlier, is responsible for a lot of this. And I have retreated a bit away from any direct interaction. Like back in the day, back in 2015, 16, 17, 18, I used to more directly debate and interact. And I retreated from that because I thought it wasn't worth it and not but I don't know maybe that was the wrong thing to do I didn't and obviously no one person makes makes the difference but it's as a whole do we need to find a way to get back to actually interacting in some way I don't even know what I don'T think debates is it but like finding some way to directly try to to affect the other side in some way directly. Cause I don't, I don'T do that currently. I donT do it.

0:29:25 Matt: Try

0:29:25 Thomas: Almost nobody does.

0:29:26 Matt: I try when I can I live in a bubble but when I can I try to ask people real questions to understand what where they're coming from and what they believe and how they know the things they know. And I think that's, that's a valuable exercise. It is. And, uh, I do think that we have, we have comedy. We have, uh we have academics, we have lawyers for what it's worth, uh and we have entertainment. Like we, we, have the culture still. And the culture is a powerful thing to hold onto. The, there is no world in which anytime soon that Trumpism is actually going to be cool, is actually gonna be something thing that people are really that excited about doing in a mass scale. I don't know. Maybe that's a little too optimistic too, but I still think that we have power as long as we have the culture and as long we have reason and the truth for what it's worth. We do have that.

0:30:15 Thomas: All right. Well, I think we'll leave it there. I'm going to go die now. So thanks, Matt. I'm glad to have you. And listeners, we're seriously really glad to be here. I'm really glad that we have the community we have. We're going to lean on that hard.

0:30:25 Matt: I appreciate you, Thomas, and I really appreciate the chance to do this. We're going to have a lot to say, and I'm already feeling the waves of anger, so I'm sure that that's going to come out a little little more too.

0:30:41 Thomas: Can hear it in your voice.

0:30:43 Matt: That's right. The rage, pure rage. Now I'm still very much processing this and I know we all are, but

0:30:48 Thomas: I'm still in the physical and I'm even joking like I think I'm gonna be sick right now so like yeah i'M STILL IN THAT PROCESS AND WE 'LL WE 'LL SLEEP ON IT WE' ll COME BACK WE' LL REGROUP WE' Ll FIGURE OUT FIGURE OUT A PLAN IT'S THE ONLY THING WE CAN DO BUT THANKS EVERYBODY FOR LISTENING AND I KNOW EVERYBody LISTING I KNOW YOU MATT I KNOW WE LIKE WE DID WE DID OUR PART WE DID WHAT WE COULD WE DID YOU KNOW WE LEFT IT ALL OUT THERE BUT IT'S WELL I DON'T KNOW wasn't enough so we'll um we'll be speaking to you soon um and uh yeah talk then I guess everyone

0:31:17 Matt: Not today. Not today. But take care of each other.