Young Thug Contempt BS Part 2 (ft. Ashleigh Merchant!)

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:45 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Opening Arguments. This is episode 1047. If you haven't, make sure you listen to episode 1046, because that is part one of the Young Thug contempt hearing, that the setup, and part two is going to be slightly more setup, and then Ashley Merchant, who was there, who was part of this, who, awesome part of it actually, as we'll find, we're so excited to speak to her and to get her insight on this. And without further ado, this break we'll get on over to part two of Yang Thug, Doug, Brian Steele contempt thingy with Ashley Merchant.

0:01:23 Matt: Other part of it too, I wanted to mention, that we're going to get into when we listen to the next part, is that the judge has just heard from Keith Adams, the only defense attorney left for Young Thug, that he can't do this by himself. And he's like, no, no, you can. It's fine. This is fine. We'll just keep going. You can't extort the court by saying you can't do this, which, I mean, he's just creating a disastrous record for an appeal or for a new trial.

0:01:35 Thomas: Yeah,

0:01:46 Clip: Hi, Mr. Adams, I'm going to address your first refusal to go forward. We've had plenty of circumstances in this trial where we've been lead counsel and we've done more than any other job of representing Mr. Williams, and the doubt won't continue. So you don't get to have your entire defense team here. You certainly get competent counsel, which is the court fines that you are on in this particular circumstance.

0:02:21 Matt: Incredible. It's incredible. I mean he just told him, I can't do this. It's a huge case, right? And you're asking me to go alone and

0:02:23 Thomas: Yeah. Think he also said, I that lawyer also said like, I'm just not like, it's also the part that like, this is such bullshit that now, I this a complicated, weird situation, but let's set the contempt aside, side. Let's say in was one of these violations, whatever it may be, some sort of ex parte, some sort or something, at a critical time, as you were laying out something that's solid grounds for a mistrial. Say that happens, and then the lawyer says, says, hey, mistrial, what, the judge is in denial about it and is like nah, no way. I, if the judge was like, nope, carry on, I guess they wouldn't have to wait until some sort of like appeal, right? Or, or is there some, like, there some way that the lawyers can be like, no, no, this, gotta figure this out before I'm, I'm going to carry on with this trial.

0:02:33 Matt: Yeah, yeah, I'm not going to do it. Right. Yeah.

0:03:15 Matt: Yeah, I mean, they could just have a sit-in, I guess. They could just sit down and refuse to do anything and have the court take them away to jail, too. But I mean it really is, you have to get an interlocutory appeal on the mistrial motion at that point, and I would think that that would work. But even apart from all of that, if the co -counsel's, I don't know if his father had just died or something, right? And he's saying, I need a couple of days, and the judge says, no, you're going forward. I can't do this without my co -counsel. I mean, just the observation of just like, well, I've watched you, you're fine, you're doing a good job by yourself. When you were a lead counsel, right? And that's different from being the only counsel. So yeah, just all kinds of problems here.

0:03:27 Thomas: Mm. Mm -hmm. -huh. Yep. So I just wanted to check if there's like any other grounds that, fact that the judge is doing such an amount of bullshit, you're not allowed to be like, I'm taking my ball and going home because this is such an amounts of bullshit. You would have to kind of go along with it. He has good reason not to because of the co -counsel being under arrest.

0:04:08 Matt: Renewing the whole mistrial. He's just adopting the whole thing and raising it again anyway. So that's underlying it. Let's

0:04:11 Thomas: Yeah. Okay.

0:04:18 Clip: I'm going to direct that you go for fine and that you continue to represent Mr. Williams. You can consult with Mr. Steele any breaks or anything such as that. I'll allow you to do that and continue to do it.

0:04:31 Clip: Mr. Steele put himself in this particular position in terms of always, I'm not asking for any other, or you, for any other information that might be privileged or any other conversations, but I need to know who told you, because that then drives other things the court needs to probably do. So he's the reason as to why we're here in this period of circumstance. So if you or he or one of you disclosed to me who told you that, I'm happy to reconsider. I understand that the court has to do whatever it needs to do. But I would ask that the Court also respect our representation. Because we're willing to stand for the claim. We believe that there's a violation. That's his right to agree as well. And we believe that's a decision we're in. Respectfully. Your Honor, may I? Sure. Yes, the Court. Thank you. Your Honor. There are two things at issue here. And one of them, Your Honor is that...

0:05:46 Clip: Before we recess, Ms. Love said that she is going to research this ethical issue because it is an ethical one, so just much like you could add to what I'm asking to say, the thing which I added as well, we believe that there are two matters at issue here, and one obviously is Mr. Williams' right to counsel of his choice during the trial of the case. We believe that the court has the discretion to fashion any remedy, any punitive remedy for contempt that it chooses. We would ask that the Court fashion a punishment for the contempt that affords Mr. Mr. Williams the right during these proceedings while court is in session to both counsel for both of his counsels for Mr. Steele to be present in the courtroom. He can still be held in contempt, but for Mr. Williams to have representation of both Mr. Steeler and Mr. Adams while court is in section, and that the court's remedy does not affect his ability to have his counsel of choice represent him during this trial.

We believe that it will, that so far this issue alone has needlessly delayed the trial of the case, and we believe that it may be in someone's best interest and in others not in their best interest for that delay to continue. So we would ask that the court, notwithstanding the finding of contempt, allow, allow both Mr. Williams, Mr. Steele, and Mr. Adams to be present while these proceedings are going on and while court is in session.

I think that would be appropriate under certain circumstances, and Mr. Steeles, certainly I can inquire about before the end of the day if you sue him to steal his information, and I've asked him to purchase him something like that. So yes, that's fine. And

0:06:30 Thomas: Execution. That's

0:06:47 Matt: So generous.

0:08:01 Thomas: Not really.

0:08:02 Clip: The second thing that I wanted to put on the record is that there was no substantive communication with any witness in this case outside the presence of any counsel for the defendants or any defendants in this courtroom. Room. The matter, Your Honor, if I may finish, the matter that the state requested an ex parte audience with the court regarding was a matter to which no one to my right was a party. It was a civil contempt matter, and the parties towards that civil contempt, the state, which moved the court to compel someone to do a thing, the court compelled, and the state said, Your Honor, we're asking with the court if they don't comply, that the court hold that person in contempt. That was a civil content matter. Nothing substantive was discussed. Everything

0:08:59 Matt: So this true. And she knows it's not true. I mean, she's perjuring herself about what happened. And it wasn't that she moved. I mean, you can go read the transcript for yourself, but I'd say there's quite a lot of substantive stuff being discussed there. This is not talking about scheduling out around the witness's busy schedule or something. Even that defense should be present for if they're talking talking about scheduling. But I mean, come on. It's astonishing to hear her now that I've read the transcript.

0:09:02 Thomas: Wow. Yeah yeah. You know what strikes me is how have in every other matter except when Trump is the defendant. When Trump is a defendant, it's like, well, shit, prosecutor, you're fucked because you might have had a relationship with the whatever. You know, like which, you know, say what you want about that. Just the feeling I'm realizing watching this is so different. Just as a viewer, I'm like, Well, she can do whatever she wants and there's no real consequences. Versus when Trump is on trial, he's like, well, I hope they let the prosecution do the case. You know, it's like the difference in privilege there.

0:09:34 Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah I also just realized when she said there was a matter to which no one to my right, referring to defense table, was a party. I mean she's literally bringing to the court within the first page of the transcript an email involving all of those attorneys. So I mean that's just, wow. Yeah Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a little bit more.

0:10:16 Thomas: Wow. Yeah. That's not even close. Okay. I

0:10:22 Clip: Substantive was discussed, everything was recorded, and the representations made at least by persons who were present to the state is that when When questioned or queried about it, is that that person was told or asked whether things occurred, and that that person relayed that no substantive communication took place during that meeting. So that is the second matter. And first and foremost, we just ask that the court, again, allow both counsels from Mr. Williams to be present, who courted in session, so that we don't delay these proceedings further. All right, thank you, Mr. Shark. The ability for the state to think themselves as the victim constantly in these matters is unbelievable.

0:11:28 Clip: My client, Shannon Stillwell, and these other young men sitting here as defendants are the aggrieved parties. We were not present. Uh, I would like to reiterate, here's the challenge: you got the information in a way that was not lawful to begin with, so that doesn't, that doesn't alleviate the information and make it less valid, invalid. So because we record, then we record these conversations so that they can be reviewed later. We didn't have any conversations that were recorded. And if you heard of other conversations that were made, I don't know how you would have gotten them otherwise, because, because somebody had to tell you. OK, well, all that's like I said, even when the case is reviewed, an appellate court will make those decisions. But

0:12:26 Thomas: I have a crazy theory, Matt. How crazy Is this? Tell, there a chance that they also had some conversation off the record and and they are very worried about whether they know about that or not.

0:12:27 Matt: Yeah, it sure seems like it, doesn't it? Because he's really focused on the fact they recorded. Yeah right.

0:12:39 Thomas: Because it's like, otherwise, why do you care who like it's pretty pretty obvious who told them even if not, it doesn't change a whole lot except if you're worried like, okay, how much do they know? But as he's already said, it's all on the record. So like part of me feels like if there was any part that wasn't on the record, if thing that makes this make sense to me based on, again, my limited knowledge here. So I could be missing something is, well, what if they're worried? Like, well how much do you know? Oh,

0:13:06 Matt: Was that comment that Steele had just before they're trying to take his notes at the end of that part of the hearing where he said something effective, like I also heard that Woody, the witness, said that he killed somebody, like specifically as they were leaving the meeting or whatever, something that sounds like it might've been off the record. So that could be along the lines of what you're thinking, pretty serious stuff. But you again, I'm really just blown away because this was not an ex parte hearing under seal. This was not something where the judge looked around the room and was like, okay, well, we're recording this right now, but for the moment it's under seal, you cannot go outside and tell anybody about this. These were still court proceedings. They were just in his chambers. So the whole premise of this is so flawed. It's so bad. And he has to know that. I can't wait to see what Ashley Merchant is going to say about this

0:13:22 Thomas: Interesting.

0:13:39 Thomas: Interesting. Very weird.

0:13:47 Clip: But at this point, my client is the Greek party. He was not present. That violated his Sixth Amendment right to be. Okay, and that's your argument, so that's your argument, that's your argument, one other thing, your honor, all I'm asking for is some sunlight, some sunlight to come over these. So this is not an open meeting, this is not, this is, this is not a sun, this is not a sunlight situation, but release the transcript and then we can see, because we do not accept this law's representation. Okay, you don't accept the court's representation, I'm telling you, the transcript, I'm telling you, at this point in time.

When the case is reviewed on appeal, if I am wrong, then certainly the appellate court can tell me, and certainly there are other bodies in Georgia that certainly my conduct can be reviewed by. But at this point, I'm telling you that that's the sum and substance of it. We are trying this case right now to win this case. We are not playing for an appeal. We would like a fair shot at this case right now. We would love the transcripts. We all know that the appellate process in this case is probably going to take decades. At this

0:14:02 Matt: It's a pretty good one. I

0:15:00 Thomas: Decades.

0:15:01 Clip: Point, like I said, I need to have a little bit more information in order for me to make some other decisions in this case. I'm not saying that you may or may not get that information, but but at this point, there was nothing that was improper about the ex parte conversations. The court's more concerned about is the disclosure. So, and - I understand the court's concerned, but as the counsel for Mr. Stilwell, my concern is the meeting that he was not allowed to be present for. Okay, all right. Thank you, sir.

0:15:41 Clip: Are you gonna repeat the same thing again? I'm gonna try not to. Oh, let's try not too, because how it is in effect, In fact, I understand everyone's opinion at this point in time. And the only thing I want to say, and the witness became aware that this word was present, this word which stated to your honor, and it spoken to his witness, his client, and he stated that the witness indicated that our view also be seen that he would plead for fifth. And then you're on a 2 -3 hour span with Siobhan, and then he comes on and says, I'm going to test it on you. That's why I would

0:15:44 Thomas: Are you going to repeat the same thing? The what rule? God

0:16:30 Clip: Bet the transcript was important. Um, let's get Mr. Steele up, please. Time right now.

0:16:43 Thomas: Forbid he not be wearing his tie, okay.

0:16:45 Matt: He's going to call him back. He's given him another chance. And then there's going be a few -hour break where he's going to come back and Ashley Merchant's going to make an appearance. And now, fortunately, we don't have to speculate about what Ashley Merchant was thinking during these proceedings because we're going to be talking to her, which I'm very excited about. Yeah, so let's bring her on.

0:16:59 Thomas: Yeah Ashley, thank you so much for joining us today.

0:17:07 Ashleigh: Thanks for having me. I am excited to be here.

0:17:07 Thomas: Oh yeah. We were excited to have you.

0:17:10 Matt: The most This is the exciting guest we've had in a long time, I'll tell you that.

0:17:14 Ashleigh: Well, thanks.

0:17:14 Matt: So yeah, no, we've been following your work for a long, and I know that we're here to talk about one Ricoh case, but of course you're involved in another one right now.

0:17:21 Thomas: Wow.

0:17:22 Ashleigh: Yes, you can never have too many RICO cases apparently.

0:17:24 Thomas: Is that what they teach you in law school? School.

0:17:25 Matt: Fulton

0:17:26 Ashleigh: Oh my gosh. I mean, it's kind of a new thing. You know, we actually just had a big seminar on it because I said, you know, if RICO hasn't caught you yet, it is It's going to, she it. I mean, it's, you know, it gives them a lot of advantages. It gives them the ability to grab a lot of people, which helps them flip people and get deals. It gives him a lot of ability to bring in evidence that they otherwise couldn't have. And it scares people, you know, I mean if you've got someone who's charged with something that could only carry a couple years in prison, you add on Rico, you're looking at 20 years.

0:17:35 Thomas: Wow. Yeah.

0:17:36 Matt: It really does seem like Fannie Willis's deal. Yeah.

0:18:00 Ashleigh: Yeah, it

0:18:00 Matt: So I know that you're not involved in this other than what we're going to just discuss at the contempt hearing, but what's your general take on the YSL trial so far?

0:18:06 Ashleigh: Has been a hot mess. I mean I don't, you know, how to nicely say it. Problems is just logistics. Anytime you've got that many defendants and you're trying to get through a case, logistics is always going to be a problem. So, you know, they've had so many delays with the logistics, with jurors, with just a lot of issues. And, you Know, I hate to say it, but a lot Of them are unique to Fulton County. Know, Fultons County historically had security issues in their courthouse.

They've got jail issues. I mean, it's just one of those places that it's like the perfect storm of all of the agencies having different issues, you know, different corruption, different problems. You know, we've got a jail that's worse than any third world country in Fulton County. You've got, you Know, sheriff's offices, officers who aren't good at keeping people apart. You got all these defendants in jail without bond.

They're having to move, you a lot of moving pieces, really trying to get people into court, trying to keep people separate. I mean, it's just been a hot mess 20 years. And I actually used to be a public defender in Fulton County. So one

0:19:01 Matt: Long have you been practicing in Fulton County? Cool.

0:19:05 Ashleigh: Of my first felon, yeah, it's kind of funny. I was back in that courtroom in 1C and one of My first felony trials ever was in 1c 20 years ago.

0:19:12 Matt: Wow. Bring it around.

0:19:13 Ashleigh: Glanville, you know, he and I go way back. He was I was assigned to his courtroom back when he was a magistrate judge and I was a public defender. Heard we had these weekly calendars every Wednesday. We would try cases for people, you known, misdemeanors who had been in jail for over a week or two and we would just try a ton of cases. And so I got to know him very well and I was very fond of him. Know, spent a lot of time in his courtroom back back in the day.

0:19:35 Thomas: So, I'm the not a lawyer layperson to try to make sure all the non-lawyers can follow. I I didn't realize, do you get assigned to a judge as a public defender?

0:19:43 Ashleigh: You usually do. So most places you get assigned to a judge. It's kind of like the DA's office does. Yeah, you've got a judge or a courtroom and then sometimes you'll have two depending on the jurisdiction. But that's how we were. We were assigned to a specific judge. So you familiar with that person. They're your judge. You're in that that courtroom, that's really the only courtroom you're in. So I got really familiar with Judge Glanville.

0:20:02 Matt: Know you're going have to appear in Judge Glenville potentially for the rest of your life, but I I'll just ask you the broadest terms. And of course, anything that we're talking about at any time, you can take it out if it's something that you didn't mean to say or just to be clear about that. Yeah, please. I'm a practicing attorney myself, I know how important it is to watch your words with these things. But I guess my general question is, is this out of character, this YSL contempt issue? Is this something that surprised you about what he did here?

0:20:06 Ashleigh: Yes.

0:20:14 Thomas: Oh, for Yeah let us know. No.

0:20:22 Ashleigh: It's awesome. Know, I hate that I'm still surprised by things. But it did surprise me. You Know, it's one of those things. Mean, I feel like and this, this may sound bad, but defense lawyers, we get treated bad. And, you know, we kind of get lumped in with our clients. And, our clients get treated poorly, and we get traded just as poorly. I always joke that we need a bill of rights for criminal defense lawyers.

0:20:33 Thomas: Hmm.

0:20:34 Matt: Yeah. Oh, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, Mm-hmm. Sure.

0:20:50 Ashleigh: And I always say, I just want to be treated like a civil litigant who's there fighting about money. I want to be treated as good as someone who is defending money or land when I'm defending a human. We're not. So anytime we get treated poorly, it doesn't necessarily shock me. Brian Steele is one of the best people ever and one of the most ethical lawyers ever. And so to get the call that he's going into lockup, I've served on on this, this gap will strike force where we're, you know, we, we represent people who are in charge, you Know, trouble with contempt and things, you Know, there's some people you get a call and you're like, Okay, that's not really that surprising.

0:21:00 Matt: Mm -hm.

0:21:11 Thomas: Huh.

0:21:27 Thomas: The usual suspects. Yeah.

0:21:29 Ashleigh: You Know, I um, mean, I may be one of those. No, I'm just kidding. Um, but like, Ashley mouthed off to judge again.

0:21:32 Thomas: You had to take the call in jail. You're like, hey, you got a call.

0:21:39 Ashleigh: Yeah. And I was like, God, I don't know if Brian goes to jail today. I'm going going to jail. And I was like, Brian can't go to jail? Like, that's crazy.

0:21:44 Thomas: You do do the thing where you realize you're talking to each other from the next room. Oh, we're both in jail! Oh, okay.

0:21:52 Ashleigh: How did this happen? How can I help you if I'm sitting in the, you know, cell with you? Yeah. So it was one of those moments you're like, Bryan Steele, wait, what? You know, he's the last person.

0:22:02 Thomas: I'm going to need you to back up. Apologies for interrupting, but you said this task force. Can you explain that to me? What in the world? Is Is this normal? Is this a, what is this?

0:22:11 Ashleigh: I mean, it's normal enough that we actually have an organized task force. You know? That's the unfortunate thing. Yeah, I know. Have a defense organization. It's the Georgia Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. And most states have them, a criminal defense lawyers group. Whatever You state you're in, they've got one. Ours is GAPTL. And one of the services we provide members is we have this group that we call Strike Force. And, you know, there's also a national one, NACDL, National Association of Criminal Defence Lawyers, and they actually volunteered to help Brian as well. I mean, those were the calls.

So I'm lucky to be the president currently of GAPDL. I also have served for many, many years on Strike Force, and what that is, is that's a group of volunteer lawyers where we're trained to do contempt hearings and we represent our members when they're in need. Know, we get calls all around the state fairly regularly. I mean, you'd be surprised at how often we end up having to go into court to help people.

Most of the time it's not this serious, you know, it's something scheduling or something that we can kind of work out. We don't actually have a lawyer in custody. But when we got the call on this, I mean Brian is a personal friend of mine, but also as president of the organization. I just, I mean, I got in my car immediately and drove.

0:22:14 Thomas: Exactly. What?

0:23:17 Thomas: Yeah,

0:23:17 Ashleigh: I said, you know, I got to go to help Brian out. And, you know, what's crazy is Brian's actually served on the Strike Force for many, many years. He and his wife, Colette. And it's, you know, it's volunteer. I mean we're volunteering. We're donating our time to defend someone who is doing what we're doing every day. And I mean I can't think of a better way to spend our time and our talents than defending someone who's fighting for their clients and being treated so poorly.

0:23:40 Thomas: For for sure. Along those lines, could you give me a sense of what's like, like an average call in this thing? Like, it's just so foreign to me as not a lawyer that you have this thing. What's like a run of the mill use of this kind force?

0:23:42 Ashleigh: Yeah.

0:23:42 Matt: Now

0:23:52 Ashleigh: You know, I'll tell you, unfortunately, the most common is trying to mess with lawyers going on vacation. It sounds crazy, but we have to do this crazy process to just take a day off. So if I want to not be called into court one day, I have to be called in. I have to do a thing called a leave of absence, and I have to file it in every single case. I have to serve every judge, every clerk, every opposing counsel. It's publicly filed. So the world knows. Mean, it's just I don't like the process, as you can probably tell. But judges mess with us all the time when we do it. And if you've ever had your family vacation time when you're a busy, stressed out lawyer messed with, you understand how important it is. So the most common call we get is, hey, a judge is calling me to trial on my leave.

0:24:00 Thomas: Oh, wow.

0:24:37 Ashleigh: And, you know, they're saying they're going to lock me up. Yeah. And I mean I've unfortunately had I've used strike force for that. Last year, I had to use Strikeforce, you the same thing, because I had a family vacation planned for spring break. And, you Know, my trial was supposed to take, we had said it was going to take maybe two weeks, and then they added some witnesses, it was gonna take three weeks. And I said, Well, judge, the third week that you're talking about, I'm out of town, and other families have booked this vacation with me. Not gonna be here. Oh, Oh, you're gonna be be here. And I was like, no, I'm not.

0:25:04 Thomas: Wow.

0:25:04 Ashleigh: So, I mean, that's the most common, know, we've got other scheduling things, you know, where unfortunately, a lot of times people tend to think that they're the most important person. So and sometimes a judge thinks you should be in their courtroom when you're in another courtroom. You know, it seems silly, but that's literally what we mostly deal with, you what we we call conflicts. Like if I'm scheduled to be in two courts at once and one judge is mad that I'm in their courtroom and not the other person's courtroom, you they'll say, I'm going to hold you in contempt.

0:25:28 Thomas: Or Or like you're scheduled to go to prom with two different judges and you have to do... Then you call in Strikeforce and you're like, okay, you pretend to be me. And we do that sitcom thing where you switch around. Hopefully the judge never notices until the very end, of course. And then, yeah.

0:25:41 Matt: Always works. Yeah wow

0:25:42 Ashleigh: Exactly. But they're happy because they're going to prom. So, you know, everybody should be happy. Yeah. Stuff like that. But that's the most common.

0:25:48 Matt: Wow that is I just, I I can't believe what I'm hearing, honestly. I practice in Massachusetts, and I feel like, this is just another reminder, I feel like we're in easy mode all the time up here. I've just never heard of anything like what you're talking about.

0:25:58 Ashleigh: It's the wild west. I mean, I mean I'm not even kidding. Like Georgia criminal defense is the wild West and you my husband practices civil and when he does criminal work with me, he's always like, God, y'all have no rules. It's literally the Wild West. I'm like, yes, it is. Yes, it Is.

0:26:11 Thomas: Wow.

0:25:59 Matt: Wow. Wow. That's what I go to immigration court for.

0:26:13 Ashleigh: Yeah. As you're seeing with this trial, you know, as you're saying,

0:26:16 Matt: Yes. Yeah. So let's, actually, when you got the call from Brian, did you know anything about this ex parte hearing? Had you been briefed on this yet?

0:26:23 Ashleigh: No, I did not know about the ex parte hearing. I didn't know anything about it. I was, I was actually in a meeting and my paralegal, you knows, she follows some of the things and, and Brian's a good friend. You know, he serves in different capacities in Gactyl, you know, in our organization. So we talk pretty regularly about issues. We have a couple cases together. You know, I'm covering some while he's in the, in, you know in this trial. Want to almost said while he is in prison, you know, waiting to get paroled, paroled from trial. It's kind of what it feels like.

0:26:52 Matt: Sure.

0:26:53 Ashleigh: But you know so I mean I, it was up to date to a certain extent. But my paralegal came in and said Brian just got arrested. And I was like wait, wait what? And I said I got gotta, I gotta stop this meeting real quick. Um, sorry, I got to go. And, um, she said, yes, she's like, I think your phone has been ringing a lot. Um. I'm pretty sure Gacktel's trying to reach you. Brian got arrested.

And I said, well, have them, you me in the car. I'm getting in the call. Call me. And um, I talked with a couple of the other folks that are on strike force because I've done it historically, but you know the law changes all the time. And I said I just want to make sure I've got the most up -to -date case law in my head. Know tell tell me what's going on.

And one of our fellow lawyers was down there on another matter and actually watched everything go down. And so he was able to give me just the whole rundown as I'm driving down there. And it was just insane. I mean, it's just insane that this ultimately happened in this case. With all of the issues that they've had, this is where we go.

0:27:44 Matt: Have you ever heard of, and again, I'm going to guess the answer here, but have you ever heard of a lawyer being held in contempt for getting word of an ex parte hearing and bringing it to the judge's attention? Okay. Just Checking.

0:27:53 Ashleigh: No, no, because never. And I mean it's crazy you have to ask that, but like ex parte. I get kind kind of mad about ex parte stuff, because we tend to be the ones that are excluded from the room. You know, someone's not going to get the invite, it tends to be The Criminal Defense Lawyer. You know? We're always last to the party. But, you know, and so these things go on, but we're told immediately after. And, you now, that's usually the fix. So it's unfortunate. I don't think they should go on. But they do. But usually we're called immediately, you know, hey, this is what happened. Know we talked about your case while you weren't there, but I'm fixing it and telling you everything that happened. So that's normally what happened. We don't normally see the lawyer who is saying, judge, you messed up. Let's fix this going to jail. I mean, that's just unheard of.

0:27:54 Matt: Yes. Yeah. Sure.

0:28:09 Matt: I You even speculate as to why Judge Glanville did this, how this happened? They

0:28:43 Ashleigh: I think he thought he was right. It's unfortunate that there hasn't been more of a spotlight on the district attorney's office and the state, because they're the ones that asked him to do that.

0:28:52 Matt: Asked For it, right?

0:28:53 Ashleigh: Yeah. And, you know, I've had a lot of judges tell me that, that, depend on you lawyers. I was just in a state bar. No, I was I was literally at a state Bar meeting maybe a month ago. And you know one of the judges was, you Know, telling me I appreciate you always being know telling me the correct law and I'm like, that's really sad that you're telling me that. But know but she's like, I don't have time to research everything. So I have to rely on the lawyers that they're telling me good good law. You know, she's like, I'm she's to 20 different types of cases, you know, all different types OF stuff.

0:28:53 Matt: Right. Yeah.

0:29:08 Thomas: No kidding.

0:29:19 Thomas: Yeah, that's fair.

0:29:19 Ashleigh: I mean, yeah, they don't know 100 percent and they don't know the facts, you

0:29:20 Thomas: There. But, but it comes to something like this, I again, feel like this is pretty standard. This isn't like, oh, in banking law, I don't know. This type of law, you are allowed to, it's like, no, he's doing this all day. Like this exact kind of, this is, this is more a rule of what conduct just in general.

0:29:25 Ashleigh: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, oh yeah. This is the Constitution. Like this is as basic as it gets. You know, it would be like me going into court and saying my client's entitled to a fair trial and and them saying, well, where does it say he's entitled to a fair trial? Like, right,

0:29:43 Thomas: Yeah. Also, who told you that? Narcon, who who told you that? Or you're going to jail.

0:29:53 Matt: Right.

0:29:53 Ashleigh: Like, right. Like, like you're, you're locked up if you don't tell me who, who had the audacity to tell you your client's actually entitled to, you know, confront witnesses against him. It's one of those things that's like, that's just basic, you Know, just basic. Yeah, So but I, but still, you know, they do rely on the DAs. And the judge didn't necessarily know all the facts at the time. And the DA asked for that. I mean, they're literally saying we want to have an ex parte. They should be held accountable for that, too. That is a good question. You know, we just got the transcripts. So we actually got the manuscript of the ex parte hearing.

0:30:06 Matt: Have

0:30:18 Thomas: Why? I don't, so weird. Okay.

0:30:27 Matt: You Had had a chance to look at it yet? Yeah, me too. Yeah.

0:30:27 Ashleigh: Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, I read it. Yeah, so, you know, I have a little bit different take. And I was kind of surprised immediately when I read that it wasn't so obvious to the DA. You know, if you read that transcript, you start seeing Ms. Love saying, oh, Mr. Melnick, who I actually was in court with this morning chatting about it. You Know, Mr Melnicki was, divided loyalties, you know, he's conflicted, who's he looking out for? Is he looking for his client? Or is he looking out for Mr. Steele's client?

0:30:53 Thomas: Sorry. Who's Mr. Melnick? I don'T, I'm

0:30:56 Ashleigh: Yeah, no, no. I'll give you backup. Yeah, he's the lawyer that represented Woody, that represented Mr. Copeland, the witness, the one that went back for this ex parte. Yep. Yeah. So he's the one that was on vacation. So, you know, when all this stuff went down and the lawyer was on vacation, they had the fill -in lawyer. That's who this person is.

0:31:02 Thomas: Right, right, right. Oh, okay.

0:31:14 Ashleigh: If Woody takes the stand and testifies, I'm going to withdraw. As a lawyer, that's what we call a noisy withdrawal. If I have a client that's going to lie on the stand, I have an ethical duty to withdraw, we're taught that in law school, that noisy withdrawal, it's like you got to kind of remember back because it doesn't happen a lot, but that's we're talking about. Well, the DA is in there and saying, no, no he's actually trying to protect the other guy, the other defendants, like he's got divided loyalties, He's not doing his job. He's being unethical by saying he's going to withdraw if if Woody takes the stand and testifies. I'm like, no, I mean, no. It's a noisy withdrawal. How do you not get that?

0:31:18 Thomas: Hmm. Right.

0:31:27 Matt: Sure.

0:31:53 Thomas: And wait, this is the substitute lawyer, the fill -in lawyer saying that?

0:31:57 Ashleigh: The fill-in lawyer is saying that he's going to withdrawal if Woody takes the stance, and the state is saying that they're being unethical by doing that. You're

0:32:05 Thomas: I crazy? It seems kind of strange. To accuse the guy who's filling in for the main guy to be like, you're just loyal to the other clients. It's like, what? Isn't he just filling in or am I misunderstanding?

0:32:17 Ashleigh: Not misunderstanding at all. It is crazy It's like why are you saying no, like why? Are you saying that your loyalty is with the defense? I mean I mean, yeah, like we stick together, but we, we uphold our ethics above everything else. That's ridiculous just to jump to that conclusion, especially when it was so clear that what they were doing was saying, this guy's going to lie on the stand. We can't do that. We cannot suborn perjury. That is illegal. I'm not going to lose my law license for a case.

0:32:18 Thomas: Okay.

0:32:44 Matt: Anything else jump out at you from this transcript?

0:32:46 Ashleigh: Know, just the fact that that I mean he said he did it, you know, he said, he did the crime in there.

0:32:49 Matt: Right. I was going to ask you.

0:32:50 Ashleigh: Yeah, he says he Did. Did it well.

0:32:51 Thomas: What crime? Which one?

0:32:53 Ashleigh: He didn't specify that, um,

0:32:50 Matt: Yeah, was a number of crimes that could be.

0:32:56 Thomas: Oh, wow.

0:32:57 Ashleigh: A lot we could pick from, um, You know, he said he did something. He also said that he basically didn't even know at this point what the truth was because all he did was lie, um, he said he was going to perjure himself, you know, and the state just kept saying, well, we just want you to get up on the stand, we want you just say something, even if it's "I don't recall." Um, read the transcript and you're like, okay, you would have, this is maybe a witness prep conversation, but the judge is there.

0:32:58 Matt: Yes, that's what I kept thinking.

0:33:20 Thomas: Yeah.

0:33:20 Ashleigh: Like the judge is literally sitting right there. That's

0:33:23 Matt: That the DA is talking to him as if the judge isn't there, it's just...

0:33:27 Thomas: Much did the judge participate versus he's just there witnessing this dressing down?

0:33:32 Ashleigh: Than he should have.

0:33:33 Matt: A lot more.

0:33:35 Ashleigh: I mean, any is bad enough, but I mean he was definitely part of it. You know, he was he was almost giving advice like the DA was, you know, they're they're literally giving this witness who, by the way, is already sworn on the stand. So this is a witness. You Know, we've got all these rules to sequester where it's like you've You've got to, you know, you can't come in and listen to testimony. This guy is literally sworn on the stand. They take him off the stand, take him in the judge's chambers, and they're berating him about his testimony, and the judge is participating. It's unreal. I mean, it's one of those things that, like, if you were in law school reading that, you'd be like, yeah, right. They made this problem up.

0:33:51 Thomas: Right. Right. Yeah.

0:34:10 Ashleigh: This is for an ethics exam. They're joking.

0:34:13 Thomas: This an Aaron Sorkin script? What are we doing here?

0:34:16 Ashleigh: Exactly. Like, which teacher, which sick, twisted teacher came up with this fact pattern, you know?

0:34:21 Matt: Because going back and listening, it really just cast any light when you listen to Glanville talking about this, who told you and getting more and more upset about it. He knows the whole time what was discussed and what he said. And I had no idea what to expect from this transcript. I guess I thought it'd be something like this, but it is really something.

0:34:37 Thomas: Did want to ask you guys that like in general, how did this transcript now again, it's like kind of freshly out. Did it surprise you? Is like, what were you expecting and what did you find? I guess.

0:34:47 Ashleigh: You know, again, it shouldn't surprise me, but it still surprises me. You know, this whole thing just continues to surprise me. It's exactly what we expected. I think what surprises me the most is that you've got several different people, you know, two different lawyers for the state and one judge in there who have all been practicing thing long enough to know better. And none of them see a problem with this. That is the Worst part. They literally don't think that there's a problem. I mean, they were locking up Brian Steele for daring to call them out on doing something that is so awful and so illegal. I thought when I read it, I was sitting in there in my head thinking, if I was sitting in court and one of of the witnesses in one of my cases had pled the fifth. And then all of a sudden that witness is gone, the DAs are gone and the judge is gone. And I'm just sitting there like, I can't even imagine, I would be losing my mind.

0:35:10 Matt: Nobody's... Yeah.

0:35:42 Matt: Well, if you have a few minutes, I'd like to listen to just a bit of the hearing that you were part of, since we have the the benefit of having you here. If we can go to 83420.

0:35:46 Ashleigh: Yeah, sure.

0:35:49 Clip: You willing to tell me at this point in time who it is that discloses information to you? From the notes to me, the actor was here, but they're not being allowed into your court. I presume they're outside. But I'll wait on them to come in. What is... I'm asking you, sir, because they can test this for you. It's not to the Georgia Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. I didn't

0:36:15 Matt: Is he making Steele go forward without an attorney and a contempt hearing? Is that what I'm hearing?

0:36:20 Ashleigh: You know, and I haven't heard that. It's crazy. I'm, it's literally taking me back to being in the hall. And so we were in the hall and I can't even make this stuff up. Deputy, the sheriff's deputy came out and told us that Judge Glanville had changed his mind and he was letting Brian go, and he was not going to go forward with the contempt and we could all leave. I'm not kidding. I'm like 30 of us out there. And one of my best one of my best friends who's standing right next to me said, I'm not leaving without Brian.

0:36:21 Matt: Wow. Wow. Go ahead. Yeah.

0:36:48 Ashleigh: Where's Brian? And I literally said, I'm not leaving without Brian, where's Brian like, you know, no, and I pushed my way in at that point and luckily Brian was asking for me right then, but I pushed I thought I was going to go to jail. The deputy was not happy with me. And I was like, this is an open courtroom and you are questioning my client at this point. Like Brian is being questioned. Like you need to let me in.

0:37:10 Matt: His liberty is at stake at this point. And I Didn't, denial of counsel on top of everything else, I didn't realize, wow.

0:37:12 Ashleigh: Know. Well, it's a public courtroom. Like it's like we're literally standing in the hall and we are members of the bar. Yeah.

0:37:15 Matt: Yeah. Of course, yeah. And You're closing it yeah. God, wow.

0:37:22 Thomas: The hell.

0:37:22 Matt: Okay. That's worse than I thought. Oh, let's keep going, let's

0:37:22 Thomas: I

0:37:25 Clip: Me just finish, okay, because you said to me that you figured out somebody told me this information, and you somehow said that it's privilege, which I can't imagine, or I eavesdropped, so to me eavesdropping is a out of 16 crime, so they brought down, so they bring down lawyers, the lawyers are not allowed into your corporate. No, we just don't have any space, Mr. Steele, and plus, they're welcome to go to 8H, I'm sorry to hear that, we can let in as many as we possibly can, that we'll fill up our benches and move by with our security protocols, but 8H is terrible. 8H then has to have a right to counsel, is it here, and I'm not gonna, do you have an attorney that's here for you, sir? Sure, Ashley Merchant, to see if she's a present.

0:38:26 Thomas: Know Her, oh.

0:38:26 Clip: Okay Mr. Merchant, good to see you, as usual. I have told your client, you represent Mr. Steele, is that correct? For the purposes of the contempt, I've entered the contempt already. I'm entering the order. I've about to enter the order, I held him in contempt earlier from today's proceeding by him not telling me who it is he got this information from, problem. I'm not asking him for any of the sum and substance of the communication.

He's been disclosing that, however, and that's why I kind of want to know who told him that. So if he tells me who it is that disclosed that to him, he will be able to purge himself of that contempt, and he's done. That's the only thing I'm asking for at this point in time.

If not, then, as you well know, as a criminal contempt, there's no supersedes by him, they'll appeal, and I'm going to put him in custody for this evening, and if he wishes it, which he can still purge, if tonight Keith Adams emails me, or you email me and tell me where his ex. So I'm gonna give him as much flexibility to purge himself of his contempt. Only thing I want is, because of the way this information was disclosed, it is troubling to the court, since it was an ex parte communication.

0:40:11 Clip: We're getting to the merits of everything else that Mr. Steele has proffered and everything else. But that's the only thing I'm trying to do at this point in time. So I've asked your client for the last time if he would tell me who it is that disclosed that information.

0:40:45 Clip: Yes ma'am. Is it on now? Yes. Okay, great. Thank you. Judge, just for the record, is the criminal contempt, is it criminal contempt that you held him in? Yes, ma' am. Okay. And you said you had a hearing earlier today. No. The criminal contempt. I told him what the contempt was, and that was he refused to tell, in order of the court, if counsel, as you know, if the court orders you to do something and you don't, that's criminal contempt so I've asked him several times, please just tell me who it is that told you. I didn't ask or inquire about anything that was said, I just wanted to know who it was. Because he's got too much detail of this particular alleged conversation for the court to be concerned about it. And Judge Simpson is a criminal contempt, he is entitled to due process, he's entitled to a hearing, entitled to an actual show cause, entitled to the allegations actually written, entitled witness list, we are entitled to present our own witness list.

0:41:39 Clip: Criminal contempt is different, it is on the spot, so he's gotten the due process he's going to get, that's on the slot. I told him plus he's had all day to tell me who it is, that is it, so a little different, this much, and I'm disagreeing, but, well, Judge, just, just for the record, it's um, that's direct, so when you're holding him in some direct criminal contempt, yes. Um, the issue with the direct criminal contempt is whether or not to actually hold a hearing now, whether or not it needs to be held immediately, and the problem is, if you're holding a direct criminal contempt, as you're saying that you did, you are a witness to that proceeding, and so it has to be referred to another judge, doesn't require a recusal you

0:42:20 Thomas: Wow, this

0:42:20 Matt: Hold up a second, uh, Real quick, just if You could just Explain the different flavors of contempt in Georgia, just so we've got this down, that

0:42:22 Ashleigh: Yeah, oh Yeah. Lots of different, lots of different flavors. So that is how it works. And most of the time when people think about contempt, they're thinking about like child support, you someone's not paying child support. And so you lock them up until they pay. That is civil contempt. You are held in custody until you purge yourself, until you do whatever the court has ordered you to do.

That is the same thing that the witness, he was being held in civil contempt, it's contempt that you're held in until you actually purge, until you testify. That's what Judge Glanville was trying to do to Brian Steele. And a lot of people mess it up because they think, well, civil, why are you in jail? That's not what it's about. It's about the outcome. So it's civil whenever you are ordered to do something and you can fix it by doing that. Criminal is different.

Criminal is when you're ordered to be something, you don't do it, and then you're going to be punished. So, it's very different because civil is where they're trying to get you to comply. They're locking you up until you comply. Just like Brian. Just, like, Brian wouldn't give the name and the judge said, I'm going to lock you up until you give the name. That's civil. That cannot be

0:43:29 Ashleigh: Criminal contempt. It can't be because criminal contempt is you're punished and we're done. It's you did it. You're guilty. Here's the punishment.

0:43:16 Thomas: Oh Oh It's more like Just a Punishment for a thing Rather than, okay.

0:43:39 Ashleigh: Yes. Yeah. So, and you can get up to 20 days for criminal contempt, criminal contempt as you either did it or not. If you did it, what's the punishments. There's no, we're going to hold you until you do, until you do what we say. That's civil. That's where the judge was messing it up. He was using, and basically he wanted the best of both worlds.

0:43:57 Thomas: Yeah.

0:43:57 Ashleigh: He wanted to have this. No, he did. He wanted the civil remedy. He wanted to be able to hold Brian until he complied, but he wanted to do it under the, the crappy process. It's like, you

0:43:59 Thomas: Yeah. Right.

0:44:08 Matt: Yeah.

0:44:07 Thomas: So He wants the least, like, due process kind of thing.

0:44:10 Matt: Yeah. And

0:44:10 Thomas: Wow.

0:44:11 Ashleigh: He didn't want any of the due process, but he wanted the power of the civil, the civil contempt. Yeah, totally.

0:44:12 Thomas: That Is, wow, oh.

0:44:17 Matt: Then at the end you asked, so it's direct contempt, then what Were You Getting, yes.

0:44:20 Thomas: Yeah. What's Direct content, yeah.

0:44:20 Ashleigh: Yes, indirect. So what that means is like if the judge actually witnessed it. So I'll use the child support example again. The judge doesn't witness a person not paying child support. Okay. So that's not direct. That's indirect. So they actually have to have a hearing where the one, you know, the mom comes and says, he didn't pay child support, they have that put in bank statements, they have a hearing. That's indirect, because the judge didn't witness it. So he's actually listening to witnesses, and he determines if it happened or not. Direct contempt is where the judge sees it happen. Like the, you know, Woody on the stand, for example, the witness, the witness says, I plead a fifth. Judge says, you have to testify. Woody says, I'm not going to testify that's direct because it's in front of the judge. It's happening in front of the judge, the problem with direct with Judge Glanville is he's a witness to it. So if you're a witness to it, you can't also be the judge basic concepts.

0:44:30 Matt: Sure. Right. Right? Yeah. It's very strange to hear you have to point this out to him. I mean, we appreciate you pointing it out to us, obviously.

0:45:17 Ashleigh: No, I know. I mean, it's, you know, when I say basic, like basic for lawyers, but it's confusing. I mean, It is confusing, but when you, when you break it down, you you know, it makes sense.

0:45:20 Matt: Yeah? No, of course. I haven't been running a Georgia courtroom for 30 years or 20 years or whatever it is. So So let's keep going.

0:45:30 Ashleigh: Right.

0:45:33 Clip: Actually, have Sue a sponte send it to another judge because you are witness to the proceedings. Show me the case law that says that.

0:45:40 Clip: It's 152 Georgia Act 399, and it says, um, that that is one of are there other cases? Also, two other cases. Henry Adams, 215 Georgia App, 372. Hold on one second. Give me the name of the first case again. Henry, what? Um, do you want just the number, Judge? Yeah, I will, thank you. 215. 215, Georgia App. Georgia App? 372? Okay. Also, 214, Georgia. 215 Georgia App 349. Okay. That's Adams and Hasty. All right, you can go up with that.

0:46:15 Matt: I assume these are just foundational cases on contempt, right?

0:46:17 Ashleigh: They are. And I had a ton of them, but these were just the foundational ones.

0:46:21 Clip: Anything a little bit more current than 1994? Um, Hasty is '94. Unfortunately, contempt of attorneys is not a common proceeding, so most of the cases are a little over I do have and

0:46:31 Matt: Nice.

0:46:33 Ashleigh: I mean, it's true.

0:46:35 Thomas: This crazy, uh,

0:46:41 Ashleigh: It's crazy. It really is crazy.

0:46:43 Clip: Judge, I'm not the only one here. Um, there's quite a few other lawyers that want to be present in the court. Um, there's about 20, 25. The challenge is not space allocations, as I told you, so you can, I guess, since since you are representing, that's fine. And he told us, Mr. CEO told us, that anybody else, because I have security concerns as well and we have to vet people to come in, then they can go to 8-H and they can certainly watch the proceedings from there

0:47:10 Matt: Are lawyers. They've

0:47:11 Thomas: So I meant to ask, what's this 8H that he keeps mentioning? Oh, ah

0:47:12 Clip: Okay

0:47:15 Ashleigh: It's up on the eighth floor. So we're on the first floor. And so basically they have an empty courtroom up on the eighth floor and they're broadcasting it. So you're watching it on TV. It's the same thing as watching it from home. I mean, it is. Yeah, we wanted to be in the the courtroom. Like, how do you defend someone if you're not in the same room with them, and you can't speak in the eighth floor. Oh,

0:47:22 Thomas: Gotcha gotcha yeah yeah yeah okay

0:47:32 Clip: And, Judge, for security purposes, they're all attorneys. Um, they're members of the bar, I can give you all their names, and still would have to be subject to the court's protocol. And also, um, there's room in the jury box. I'm in this room, in the courtroom, so we would ask that they do act right now. I'm not in my jury box, okay? I understand.

0:47:49 Thomas: Just cleaned

0:47:49 Ashleigh: I know oh it's ridiculous we just we just had it sanitized. We're sorry. Well, and we all have to go through security to get into the courthouse so it's like what is is he? Yes.

0:47:49 Thomas: It yeah okay I was just gonna ask that, like, what

0:47:56 Matt: Right. Yeah.

0:47:58 Thomas: Is there separate courtroom security?

0:48:01 Ashleigh: Is He's saying that, like, the courthouse security isn't good enough? I mean, like oh

0:48:06 Thomas: Very weird. Okay, I'm literally going to ask that because it seemed like, yeah, you would the building would be where you do that. This

0:48:13 Matt: He's unconstitutionally closing the courtroom at this point.

0:48:13 Ashleigh: I know and

0:48:15 Thomas: Is crazy should

0:48:15 Ashleigh: Yeah, and we have tons of space. There were tons of pews. I was pointing out all the the space, I there, they all come

0:48:20 Matt: Wow.

0:48:25 Clip: May one additional attorney come in, Alex Sousor? I'm here on behalf of GACA for our strike force. He is the chair of the strike force, I'm the president of the Georgia Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers and also a member of the Strike Force. So can he come in as another attorney co -counsel?

0:48:43 Thomas: He clean? No, I'm just kidding.

0:48:44 Ashleigh: Oh my God it was crazy. Oh,

0:48:45 Clip: Absolutely, sure. Great. Alex Sosor. Alex Sossor. Thank you, Judge.

0:48:57 Clip: It has two issues. One is the question for disqualification. Okay. And that's, um, I think the judge, the judge went ahead and did some other things that caused that, there to be that issue presented. So, I'm going to take a look at the other case. That was in the, that was 233 in Georgia, 372 in the other place. And there's several others when you're ready.

0:49:32 Ashleigh: I had a list. Crazy.

0:49:33 Thomas: I don't think you're gonna find a way to still be right, dude. I don't know, like, I'm not the lawyer, but just based on, I

0:49:41 Matt: Right, Ashley, we want to respect your time. This has been a lot of fun.

0:49:44 Ashleigh: I I love talking about this stuff. Thank you. He is a legend he should be a legend I mean if everybody knows, if I'm in jail, you're calling Brian. So, like, he's he's gonna be my lawyer. So, so,

0:49:45 Matt: I mean, just exceptional work, of course, on behalf of Brian Steele. And Brian Steele himself has become a legend overnight, I think, nationally among defense attorneys. He already was. It's great.

0:50:03 Matt: Yeah, it's great to hear you say all those things about him.

0:50:05 Thomas: I'm still in suspense as to what's happened in after this. This, what kind of so you've you've given this judge, who is clearly in hard denial, what know a bunch of citations. He's going to going to figure, try out a way to still be right, but obviously he's not. What what happened with the rest of the thing here?

0:50:19 Ashleigh: Took a break. He said, you know, a 10 minute break. So an hour later, he came back and said that he was going forward with it, but he was not going to lock Brian up that night. So he read the law and realized that the criminal direct contempt, he could not hold Brian until he told. So, he realized that he couldn't do that. So he came back and said, you're right. Well, he didn't say that, but essentially said that, you know, a civil punishment for criminal contempt, so you I do have to instill punishment. And he gave him the max. He gave him 20 days.

He said, I can't hold him indefinitely until he purges himself. I can't make him talk. But what I can do is I can give him 20 days, the maximum, and I'm going to give it to him. And he said I'm gonna give it to him on weekends so that he wouldn't mess up the trial, which, I mean, this case is massive. That's insane to think that, I mean, these guys are going 10 hours a day, you know, to think that you can spend your entire weekends in the jail and still try a huge racketeering case is just insane to me. So,

0:50:42 Thomas: Ridiculous yeah six

0:51:19 Matt: Unimaginable.

0:51:19 Ashleigh: But that's what he said. He said, I'm going to have him serve six months of weekends, you know, 20 days total, but it's going to be about six months. Yeah. Yep. And he is going to have to turn himself in this upcoming Friday is what he said.

0:51:20 Matt: Wow.

0:51:25 Thomas: Months of weekends wow, this

0:51:32 Matt: And have you ever heard of an attorney getting the max for contempt ever?

0:51:34 Ashleigh: No, I have not, especially not for a first, you know, I've had some attorneys get a couple of days, but it's been repeated violations, you Know, um, with extra, you know, extra issues tacked on nothing like this. No, that was unheard of.

0:51:38 Matt: Yeah. Sure. Hmm. Sure, sure, sure.

0:51:46 Thomas: Is crazy. Sorry.

0:51:47 Ashleigh: I mean, the max is unheard of, especially while the case is going on. I mean, that's like, how do you keep trying a case when you're in custody? Absolutely insane. But, you know, at that point I knew Brian was walking out with me and I knew that we would be able, despite the fact that the judge says he couldn't get a supersedious, I knew that he was wrong and that we could.

0:51:54 Matt: Yeah, yeah, I was gonna ask.

0:52:07 Thomas: What is what does that mean, right?

0:52:08 Ashleigh: So a supersedias is a bond. It's, it's what, it's an appeal bond essentially. So like you normally think when, yeah, when someone gets arrested, they get a bond and that's pretrial. A supersedias is the bond after trial. So because because that judge had essentially found him guilty of contempt, he needed a bond after that guilty finding. And so that's what's called a supersedias. And you're entitled to that. And so despite the fact that the judge said he wasn't, we knew he was. So we were going to file the paperwork and make sure that the appellate courts who would follow the law did. And they did. And so, you know, we were very glad that they did and he didn't have to go into custody.

0:52:13 Thomas: Right.

0:52:45 Matt: I just thought that was so strange when you said, you know, there's no appeal to this because I knew that couldn't be true.

0:52:49 Ashleigh: It's not. I know. There were a lot, there were a lot of things. It was one of those things. It was like, okay, what do I want to have to fight on today?

0:52:49 Thomas: Well,

0:52:50 Matt: Yeah okay, just checking. Just checking. Right. Sure no, everything is saying. Well,

0:52:57 Ashleigh: Yeah, I

0:52:57 Thomas: But this just seems so insane that figuring, okay, we're gonna appeal or something, and then someone else is gonna be like, what in the fuck is happening here, and then make a big deal about it. Or, I, I just don't understand, again, not a lawyer, how does this just happen? And then, I know there's not like a judge police force that's going to arrest him or something, but like, what, what is happening now with this? How does this just happen? I don't understand, not

0:52:57 Matt: Yeah,

0:53:19 Ashleigh: I know, I know. And that's the, you know, that's the most frustrating thing because these things happen in courtrooms and it's like, how do you fix it? You know, do you want to wait until the end of trial? In this case, it, it's, is in the appellate process. So if Judge Glanville moves forward and, you know, keeps, keeps it up, then we'll have the full appeal, and the Court of Appeals of Georgia will decide whether or not Brian had due process and whether or not he was properly held in contempt. Um, think we'll be successful on that, you know, it wasn't a lawful order, judge can't say who told you, um, you know, that's not a lawful order. So, and you know, who told me that I had an ex parte, who ratted me out basically, I mean that's what he was saying, who ratted me out.

0:53:56 Matt: Absurd. Yeah, Unbelievable.

0:53:56 Ashleigh: I know, I know.

0:53:57 Thomas: For nothing. Like, isn't it obviously the substitute teacher that was there that day? Like, or is he worried, it's, it's either that, or whoever was taking this transcription down, I guess that's like the two. What

0:54:02 Ashleigh: I think everybody Well, that's, yeah, or that, well, the sheriff was in there, you know, and so were the D.A. I mean, there's lots. And there were a couple investigators for the DA's office. I mean there's a lot of folks that it could be.

0:54:16 Thomas: Is he going to do with this information? Yeah.

0:54:17 Ashleigh: Right. Exactly. All Brian was trying to do was get a fair trial and make sure it wasn't ex parte. Like that's what's the craziest. You know, he's just trying to get the remedy, you know, get it fixed, get the ex parte undone, and they wouldn't do it. And then they lock him up. It's like, oh, you caught me. You, you, you, someone ratted me out for breaking the law, and I'm going to lock you up for not telling me who the rat is. It's exactly what happened. I

0:54:40 Thomas: Like this is just crazy. Crazy.

0:54:41 Ashleigh: Know, I I

0:54:42 Matt: Even more than I thought, I just, I mean, we already thought this was crazy, but just hearing from you, it's just really something. Um, love to, yeah,

0:54:43 Thomas: Yeah.

0:54:45 Ashleigh: Know, I'm happy to come back, I mean, more may happen, who knows, sorry, we had to cut it a little, but my technical difficulties.

0:54:53 Thomas: Oh, yeah. No, I know. I know Matt

0:54:54 Matt: No, of course, I

0:54:55 Thomas: Had a lot of other questions for you about other matters, too. We'll see. Yeah, this was a for

0:55:00 Matt: Would

0:55:00 Ashleigh: Well, why don't we reschedule for that then? I

0:55:02 Thomas: Sure. That would be great. We would love to have you. This is so much fun.

0:55:03 Matt: Love to, no,

0:55:05 Ashleigh: Feel bad that I had something after this, so I feel bad, but yeah, well,

0:55:08 Matt: Yeah,

0:55:07 Thomas: No. I was going to say normally it's like awkward, like, oh, sorry, we're making you listen to yourself. But since it's you just absolutely owning a judge, I feel like it's like, oh no, no, please don't make me watch my greatest hits highlights of my lawyering career. Oh no, that's embarrassing.

0:55:17 Ashleigh: It was interesting because I haven't listened to it, I was like, oh, wow, okay, that's awesome. That's so funny, that's awesome. Well, thanks for having me, and, and definitely let's, let's reschedule another time. All right, very welcome, talk

0:55:30 Matt: It's been yeah, absolute pleasure, thank you.

0:55:30 Thomas: That is so cool. Excellent. Thank you so much. Matt, uh, Ashley only had so much time, it was generous of her to give us that time, I would have talked to her about the whole damn thing if we could, but, uh, we couldn't. So thanks so much to Ashley for coming on and giving us that bit of info, but let's tie up the loose ends here. So what do we need to know about this?

0:55:57 Matt: So the transcript was actually released just yesterday, as of the day we're recording. And Judge Glanville, somebody must have finally just talked to him, or he really gave it a good thought or something, because it seems to have come somewhat to his senses. And he's going to allow another judge to review the recusal motion, as is appropriate by this point under these circumstances. He's holding off on anything else on the trial until that is decided, which is again, the appropriate thing to do.

0:56:19 Thomas: That That sure makes sense to me.

0:56:22 Matt: Really does, because he is a witness at this point, and I just don't know what's going happen here. I mean, it does seem like there's been structural error. It does seem this is potentially, I mean, probably a complete mistrial on the longest running criminal proceedings in Georgia history, and potentially a disastrous conclusion to this extremely complex RICO prosecution. So we'll keep watching, but, uh, it's really something. If you enjoy a courtroom drama, this is, this is a peak stuff here.

0:56:41 Thomas: Oh boy, Well, I can't wait to talk to Ashley more. She seems to be up for perhaps talking more about this and maybe other things. So that was so much fun. Thanks again to Ashley And thanks, Matt, for taking us through that gripping courtroom drama.

0:56:51 Matt: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, free Young Thug, well.

0:57:03 Clip: This podcast is a production of Opening Arguments Media, LLC, All Rights Reserved. It is produced and edited by Thomas Smith, who also provided the fabulous intro and outro music used with permission.