SIO450: From Trump Voter in 2016 to Progressive Making a Real Difference in 2024

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:16 Thomas: And Welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 450 and I'm your host Thomas Smith. A really interesting one for you today. So I was talking to a listener actually of Opening Arguments and she said a number of things that I found, frankly, astonishing that made me very eager to interview her on this show. One, we were talking about how she's been working for about a year in a prosecutor's office. Not going to say exactly where to keep, you know, anonymity and all that. But in a very conservative place, but she's a progressive trying to kind of make a difference, which already that's fascinating. I wanted to hear more about that. Then she said she voted for Trump in 2016. And so then I thought, OK, now I really need to hear this story because I feel like it's so rare these days to hear from anyone who genuinely changes their mind. And I found that really interesting to not only change your mind like that, like she clearly has, but also go from, in pretty short order, a Trump voter in 2016 to someone making an actual difference, sort don't know if on the ground is like the right phrase for it, but like working within the system to try to make it better. It's conversation in sort two parts in a way, because I really wanted to hear about how she went from being a Trump voter to changing her mind. And in the process, I talk about, you know, my journey from being Republican to now being raised a Republican, I should say to now. And I two people coming to terms with whiteness, I don't know, being raised in that mold and to turns with ultimately the inadequacy and dishonesty of that worldview. I hope you find that interesting. Then in the later part, we talk about her actual job as in the prosecutor's office where she is. While I know that many people want to abolish the entire system, and if I could wave a magic wand and abolish the system and replace it with what I want, I would absolutely do that 100%. But I also, I start to worry that there are a lot of people who have taken the mindset that like, well, the whole system needs to come down. So therefore I'm not really going to do too much effort into it or making it better in any ways I can, which I get I because get the sense of hopelessness, but I also I can't help but wonder like, okay, but what if your entire life goes by and the system has never been abolished. Then you've just spent your entire life not helping. Like you've, all you've done is just talked about how the system ought to be abolished and it's, you know, like I get where that's coming from, but I also think that we ought to be as leftists pretty realistic about what we can expect from this population of people we find ourselves in. So I think people like our guest today who are working within the system to try to make it better, it end being that they were doing the only thing that could be done. I hope not, but that may be the case. And so, I find it really interesting. Just my editorializing. That's not her views or anything. I just wanted to add kind of where my mind's at on that lately. But just another reason why it's fascinating to learn about someone in this position. You know, we talk about bail reform, cash bail versus, you know, signature bond and real details like that that are fascinating. So I hope you enjoy this. Get right to it after this break, which you can avoid if you go to patreon.com/seriouspod. Get the ads. Oh, we have another seriously awful movies planned that will be a lot of fun. Good reasons to support the show, including supporting conversations like these. Right. So after this break, we'll get to our guest, Alex. I'm joined by Alex. How are you doing today?

0:03:57 Lexi: I'm doing great. How are you?

0:03:58 Thomas: Great. I'm so happy that we're doing this. It's crazy. We were talking a bit and you said that you were a Trump voter in 2016. And then like, and Then like now you're so much not that, like it was, it was genuinely a surprise when you said that. I was like, no way, because you're obviously not that. So that's kind of, we should, we should talk about that. And maybe you want to go back to, I don't know, however far you think you need to go to explain your 2016 vote.

0:04:07 Lexi: I apologize to everybody. Yeah? Yeah. Well, it's funny that you say that because I mentioned it to my little sister, who obviously has known me forever and she also today when she learned that was shocked um that tells you anything about where I am now um I mean I grew up in a super super small town in Iowa um literally graduated with the class of 53 um did cattle all my life was in 4-H and everything um if you can imagine the um from everybody in some place like that that would just grew up hearing what everybody else was saying. My grandpa and my dads are both farmers. And for whatever reason, the mega base and Republicans seem to concentrate on people such as them, even though they are not being benefited from any of the policies that are in place for what they think is helping them.

0:05:09 Thomas: I know. I hear, I'll hear, occasionally I hear an interview with a farmer and they're like, hey, you know, Trump's, Trump kind of fucked you over. And they're, like, yeah. And, and they, like if it's a, if it's a, you know, a more lefty source, it's usually with the idea that, like yeah, all these farmers are going to realize. It's like, nah, it's probably just like that one.

0:05:31 Thomas: The rest of them will have some story about why it's still ultimately my fault or something.

0:05:32 Lexi: They don't. Yeah, or Biden's of course um or obama um probably um that was just what I was constantly hearing and I guess I had in my mind growing up that um the republican party is made up of so many and are wealthy right and the ones that are benefiting from all the tax cuts and whatnot. I felt like it was the cooler, like not cooler, but more prestigious party to be a part of. And so I wanted to be a part of that even if I had no idea what I was spewing from my mouth. I graduated high school in 2014. So the 2016 election would have been my like sophomore year of college and I was currently attending Iowa State University. And that is a land grant college, super agriculture college. And it is definitely a conservative college. So what people around me said and did, my parents and my grandparents and I even remember spewing out the horrible you about immigrants and you know them coming and it was terrible looking back I can't imagine I can't believe it but

0:06:43 Thomas: No judgment. I mean, like that's, yeah, I get it. I, that's one thing that I've really, you know, I often try to remind people like, Hey, uh, I also was a Republican. Now that was, I, it sounds like I'm exactly 10 years older than you or so. So I, but I, I can confess that I fucking voted for like John McCain. I think I can't actually remember.

0:06:57 Lexi: At least he was a decent

0:07:03 Thomas: Remember?

0:07:03 Lexi: Like person I mean you know in certain sense

0:07:05 Thomas: I'm still better than you. Don't get me wrong. No.

0:07:07 Lexi: Parent hey I mean there's definitely better judgment that's for sure I

0:07:11 Thomas: No no. It does. But it doesn't matter. It's like relative to what you grow up in. You know, it's really hard to like shake your whole information base is like that for a long time. Some people it's forever. But like, you know, at least for people like you and I it's like, why would you think any differently? There's no reason to expect that you would. And so I bring up McCain because it was around it was kind of a similar I think age to what you were not quite exactly the same but like after was like the last Republican I voted for I think so 2008-9 or whatever that was and and I was I had just graduated college so maybe even a little bit you know maybe a little bit later than you I don't know so but

0:07:31 Lexi: Only by a couple years well yeah well like you're saying when it's being presented like to you on the news as fact right I mean they're not saying it in an opinion -based way they're saying it and this is how it is um doing this and so why would you question it when it stated like that so I guess this is just how I was sure um until I graduated college. Got an undergraduate degree in psychology and criminal justice, and then I went to the University of Memphis Law School. I wanted to get out of Iowa in the Midwest, and the University in Memphis overlooks the Mississippi River, and it was the best, most beautiful campus available, and so I went, loved it, moved down there, and started, started, obviously, with all the basic classes. And every morning, I would wake up and say, hey, Alexa, good morning. And she would spew me the Fox News headlines. And I didn't even think any more than that. And then I was the middle of my 2L year when the pandemic hit. So I was living in an actual shoebox in downtown Memphis, paying like $1,400 a month. And so I moved back up with my long-term boyfriend who had a job in Wisconsin, moved in with him to save money on rent and continued and actually graduated without ever stepping foot back into the law school building. But obviously that summer of 2020 was George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter movement and I really started paying attention to other outlets rather than than just

0:07:52 Thomas: People People can change. Do

0:09:29 Lexi: Fox News I remember turning into CNN and a lot more I

0:09:33 Thomas: You know why? Do you remember like why that process started?

0:09:35 Lexi: I think I've always been interested in other people's viewpoints and trying to understand like why people think the way that they do probably stems from like my psychology you know background I really really just am intrigued by the way that the human mind works so I was why like how could people possibly be you with what I thought of at the time as you know violence and looting and whatever so I turn would turn on something else well so then when I went back to school in the fall was when it really everything changed for me. I was was taking a class taught by a Black female who grew up in downtown Memphis in the projects. And she was teaching us mass incarceration in the United States. It was a seminar with about just 10 of us. And the assigned reading was The New Jim Crow. Um that finally understood what the black lives matter movement like meant more than what was being portrayed um its face you know what I mean um black life matter movement extends contemplating so much more than just you George Floyd incident. It's so much bigger than that. And the new Jim Crow was just absolutely phenomenal in explaining that.

0:10:55 Lexi: Her perspective, to up in the projects in Memphis and then become a prestigious law professor teaching mass incarceration in the United States during do that right like I guess that's what what I learned in the class was how difficult and what kind of context you need to consider that

0:11:15 Thomas: It's crazy because like this that's a process that makes sense but I'm just so surprised at how abbreviated your process seems Like, it really is crazy. Like, I was joking with you that, like, you just seem like every boomer parent's nightmare, grandparent's nightmare. You know, like you go off to the liberal college, even though I'm sure it wasn't that, but like get brainwashed by DEI and, you know, what race theory coming for you. And it like it the funny thing is it kind of is sort of what happened but also that's just like learning more about the true history of our country you know yeah

0:11:52 Lexi: I think I was just presented with the actual information and all of it for the first time, you know, and it wasn't taught by a whitewashed textbook. Sorry. I know that they don't like that term, but it's true. Um, learning from learning about the actual history from the perspective of, you um, who, you know, is black and experiences that culture that is so much a different perspective and to be presented with that information that like I wasn't before was

0:12:18 Thomas: Really interesting can you tell us any more about like any of that process for you like did you just is it really just as simple as kind of almost overnight or or did you slowly kind of change change, what you thought about certain things. Yeah.

0:12:33 Lexi: It probably is much more slowly than I'm making it sound I think you have to put in it to context as to I was living in a one -bedroom apartment just doing law school and all I was doing was either studying the law and what you know I'm being presented there or I was watching the news because it was crazy right like the news in 2020 was just absolutely nuts if you you within an hour any a bunch of stuff could have changed so I think I was flipping between a bunch of different stations and keeping up with it and at the same time learning about all the laws and all of the like issues that they were you know talking about on the news I was learning about in law school like by black you know black professors so that like lined up from the like the more liberal like quote -unquote um information and their outlook aligned much more with what my law professors were saying which to me just if my law professor's you know are going through it showing me the black letter law the statutes the constitution and everything that happened and they're showing me actual facts actual events that line up with why, you this is all happening. That just logically makes more sense to me to be the better outlook. If that makes sense.

0:13:44 Thomas: Yeah, I mean, for me, if you a, what seems like a more gradual change. Also, I guess another component of that is the time you're in. I mean if you're in the time of Trump, it's entirely possible that like, because things have so distorted, on the right like over time it's you know and I think there's it dates back at least you know to fox news and and that's always been there but like there's no way to get around the fact that it's just gotten worse and worse I think and maybe maybe that break from reality that harder break from realty happens faster when what you're being given is that much further away from the truth you know like if it if it's stuff that's like sort of a bit of a lie here and there it's going to be easier to believe than like snapping in and seeing like oh they're just doing bullshit completely but it's still hard like you still like I thing about fox news is that and in that kind of environment is that it's so much more about negative partisanship that I one thing I haven't heard you talk about and I'm curious if you had the same thing that I did was yeah I was conservative and then as I went to college I I I started to really go left on certain issues you know I'd be like well okay I've met a lot of gay people they're great I

0:14:57 Thomas: Just not down with the homophobia like at all but you know I I still the economic stuff you know I'm still on the ride and and like it was kind of a yeah yeah but but one thing that you haven't mentioned that I had I'm juste curious if you had two was like well I'll never be one of those fucking democrats though like I'm not gonna do because because they, there's something wrong with them, you know, because I just absorbed so much negative partisanship. And then eventually, for me, just the what I saw is the truth of the issues just eventually overcame that. But did you have that feeling of like, well, I can't be one of them, though?

0:15:04 Lexi: I did the same thing. Definitely. Not more for just the pressure from the people around me, right?

0:15:35 Thomas: Exactly.

0:15:36 Lexi: Like I said, like my grandparents were farmers, my dad's a farmer. Everybody I knew thought that what they were being told helped them. And I think, I hate to say it, but one of the issues that I felt strongly about was the immigration issues and the way that they were talking about it because my dad worked at Pioneer and Pioneer does a lot of, um, get a lot of immigrants to help with the harvest and planting.

0:16:01 Thomas: So pioneer? I don't even know what kind of thing that is. Mm

0:16:06 Lexi: Like, they're probably one of the biggest, if not the biggest corn producer in the United States. Um, do corn and soybeans. Um, They actually just got acquired by another big, um for agriculture. Um. But, so my dad, um there for forever. And like I said they would bring in immigrants and migrants for the planting and harvesting season. And think that some people, not my dad particularly, he actually would come home with the best stories about these people and how great and how good their food was and how nice and how much fun they would have. So maybe not my Dad particularly, but other people hearing that that was happening, especially in my super small town, right, that there's only 1800 people that live And they're bringing in migrants when they could, you know, maybe their mind, hire people that live there. Right. I think that's how they looked at it. And so the fact that they instead of hiring people in the town, they were bringing in immigrants. That's where they get the whole like stealing our jobs thing.

0:17:01 Lexi: Right? What I mean I don't I also never heard not one of them ever say oh yeah I applied for the job and didn't get it you know like

0:17:01 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah it's not a job they would ever do probably

0:17:10 Lexi: Oh yeah I actually deroged growing up with probably is a word that nobody has any idea what it means

0:17:13 Thomas: I I just assumed something happened with our internet connection what the fuck

0:17:19 Lexi: Um it's actually where you walk through the fields and take out all of the um rogue stalks so anything that's like not, not and the breed that they want it, whatever. So it's literally, you're walking through the field at dawn and just walking through and then staking out the stalks to make sure that they don't fertilize other stuff.

0:17:27 Thomas: Gotcha

0:17:36 Lexi: And, you know, there's the tasseling. I mean, those are hard labor jobs, right? Like most people don't want to do those, you know, like,

0:17:36 Thomas: Hmm well and not only that correct me if I'm wrong but like a lot of the people you're probably talking about like the the white people they're likely probably benefiting from the cheap labor more than they're losing jobs that they would have otherwise had?

0:17:56 Lexi: Exactly what I was about to say too is that oh like we're on the same um wavelength not only were you know what they thought about them being hired was not true but pioneer was able to you know make more money because they didn't have to pay them as much and that that success only benefited the town you know and brought in income and whatnot so it's of it was just a misconception and I I hate that I fell for it but

0:18:18 Thomas: Yeah. No, I mean, judgment -free zone on that. Don't yeah, it's like the kind of thing where it's not like I'm super cool with that. I don't love that there's an underclass of immigrants that we exploit. That sucks. But factually speaking, it is just incorrect for all these white conservatives to say that they are taking their jobs. It just couldn't be less correct.

0:18:36 Lexi: Well when I was growing up and when I was converting whenever that was the line right that they're stealing our jobs well now if you turn on fox news it's they're raping your wives and they're coming and they'RE KILLING YOUR FAMILIES AND THEY'RE BREAKING IN I THINK THE ONE OF THE MOST RECENT TRUMP WAS THAT THEY'RE GONNA BREAK INTO YOUR HOUSE THEY'RE They're going to steal all your stuff and they're going to like rape and harm you and you're like the Democrats are letting them do it. You're like, what in the world are you even talking about? Like, so there's a big jump from, yeah, exactly.

0:19:05 Lexi: So I think that it, it's that much more obvious to I mean, any objective logical person that, a much bigger jump and there's no factual basis for any of that information. You think so. I totally totally agree. I think that that's a huge part of it is that they've just leaped so far to the extreme and ridiculous.

0:19:02 Thomas: It's so extreme. Mm -hmm. So it comes to the Black Lives Matter stuff though what's interesting is I think what happened is once I learned more about all that you because again it's it's a slow evolution you know And I only becoming more and more clear as I kind grow and evolve like how not and consciously but how sort of subconsciously racist I was in the things that I supported or thought. You know, like the idea that like genuinely there's nothing that makes more sense to me than the fact that they're doing this DEI bullshit right now, because as a conservative, it's like, yeah, you think that like, quote unquote, those people are getting all these things that they shouldn't get because society, you know, we're just like, so don't want to be racist that we're We're just going to like, you know, we're just gonna like give them stuff. And it's like, it couldn't be more bullshit. But once you like get out of that, it's so, it'S really horrifying to be like, oh my God, that, that I effectively speaking, I was a racist. I wouldn't have said that or thought that, but it's like, Oh no, I'm one. I was one of those racists. It's really

0:20:26 Thomas: Depressing. And it'S like, but you know all we can do is grow. And I certainly know that if I listened to your story or anyone's story, I don't sit sit there and be like, well, you, you when you were 17, you should have fucking known. But it's like, no, you don't. Whatever. We're raised in what we're raised and that's what we'RE going to be.

0:20:43 Lexi: Well if you say that to anybody like I know if you said that to some of my like family members that are older than me that hey that's kind of a racist like statement or even hint at the fact that they might be racist but I never said like a derogatory term or like their expectation of racism is just like you overly obvious you know just because you didn't use the n -word or you weren't actively you them in line or something that they aren't racist and it's like you can't fix that thought process and realize that you have an issue of your thought process unless you recognize that it's an issue. And the defensiveness from conservatives is, I think, pretty broad. And no, I agree.

0:21:27 Thomas: I think it's honestly, I THINK it's genuine. Like and I'm not sure I'm disagreeing with you or not, but I think what it is, if I try to think back to when I fucking was a piece of shit. It. No, it just had those views. It's like, yeah.

0:21:39 Lexi: Just a piece of shit talk.

0:21:41 Thomas: When I think back to that, it's like well, as a conservative, what I thought was the objective fact about the world was these people just, you know, they're not quite as smart. And so having the opinion that like these people are getting some undue stuff and are not, they haven't really earned it and it's, you can simultaneously believe that and also believe, but I don't have anything against them it's not like you know it's not like I actively wish ill on any of them or like but it's just missing the fact that like oh yeah but that's that's the key point there you know yeah

0:22:12 Lexi: Like, yeah, that's because, oh, that, you have put them there and we continue to try to put them there. No, And I definitely do agree. I agree. I think that their offense that they take when you insinuate that they might be saying racist something is genuine. I think they're genuinely offended that you think that they're racist and they don't want to be racist, but they don'T agree with where the line is now. You know, they DON'T think that what they're doing is racist. And so calling them racist is an absolute insult and they're not going to recognize it.

0:22:16 Thomas: So many systemic reasons yeah yeah yeah yeah mm -hmm yeah and it and honestly I think it well as we can talk about tactics or whatever but I don't even think it does anything to call them racist it's a it's an interesting interesting observation about how I do really think, and it seems like you agree that it's like they do, many of them genuinely think like, no, I'd never be racist. And it's so confusing, I think, to many people on the left, where they think like well, they just must be, lying. And some of them are, but like for the most part, like, you know mine and your family, they they wouldn't, I'm guessing, they would never want to admit to being racist, And they don't think they are like they just think the facts are a little bit different. And they think that that justifies a bunch of stuff that it doesn't. And also the main thing is denial of the systemic racism. And that was a big and it sounds like for both of us, like that was a huge thing. Like for me, I don't know, I'm I'm super bottom line kind of I tend to think I'm pretty when it comes to this stuff, like I'm pretty bottom line. And for me it was like I had all this stuff in my mind about, you know, you talk about oh they're looting they're blah blah blah and it's like you have all those negative views and then once I learned more about like oh yeah no but like here's what the fuck happened and here's the fact that there's never been any proper reparation effort of any kind for like all this stuff and no matter how long it's been since slavery since jim crow since all that stuff I used to think like you're complaining about shit from 100 years ago or more like there's that's so invalid and then And when you learn the history that like, no, yeah, but it doesn't matter that it was a hundred years ago, if you literally, if we never lifted a fucking finger to make up for like different, you levels of wealth, levels, like all this stuff, like where people live, the ability to buy houses, the build it, all this stuff that contributes to like systemic poverty and, and inequality. Once I learned about that, it's like, oh, okay, well then, yeah. That's a massive problem we never addressed. Dressed and once I started looking through at that lens and I see like all the defensiveness the white kind of um

0:23:26 Lexi: Not. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Denial.

0:24:42 Thomas: Fragility around it yeah denial and fragility of like you when I read tanahashi coats um one of I read a lot of it but but of the things that really hit me and I was already on the left but particularly hit me was his I think essay I I think it's just called on reparations and pointing out that like, yeah, it's not even that like Congress has refused to do reparations. It's not Even that it's like there were times when they would say, hey, can we have a committee do a report on what this might look like? And then it was like, no fucking way. We will not know the hell. We will Not look into, you know, it'S like, then I look at that. I'm like,

0:25:22 Lexi: How dare you suggest that we might have been part of the problem and we should do something to fix it.

0:25:27 Thomas: Well, or that you would even do a report on like, what would it look like if we were like, okay, let's see if we can do some reparations. And then, no, because these people, many of them, what about a black immigrant? They weren't even around that, you know, like you're already doing all that at the stage where they're like, but we could do a rapport on it. Maybe the report would say that. Maybe the rapport would say, well, it wouldn't work, you Know, but they won't even, they couldn't even do that. I forget exactly when it was, but it was in that essay. And it was just, it's another thing where it's like, that isn't reasonable. Like it just isn't. Like there there's no way to defend that.

0:25:58 Lexi: One I'm not actually familiar with that I hope that sounds really interesting um I would guess that in a report you'd have to start with a you and history you know based as to why the report was being done in the first place you know and like what the harm was there and so what needs to be done to fix it and if you do that then you have to dive into what happened right you have present facts and how how they were harmed And I think if they subconsciously or they knew, not subconsciously, purposefully don't want to do the report because they know it's going to bring out the facts and then they'd have to take responsibility, which they don't wanna do.

0:26:33 Thomas: And it's like there are a lot of things as a conservative. I what you said earlier about, you know, sort or whatever. I don't know that I exactly would put it in those words, but I did have this conception of, because I came from a pretty intelligent family, and so it wasn't like all my family's views were knee -jerk, stupid -sounding racism noises. They had intellectual defenses for stuff, and then I went to college, and even though I was kind of changing how I felt, I met some of those college Republican -y types, in and the Ben Shapiro mold, almost, but not quite that big of an asshole, like someone like, you know, kind of nicer than that. They do a good job of like making it seem like the intellectual arguments are all on the right. And it's just that the left is so emotional. They don't want to like deal with that. And and honestly, I I believed that. And so when it was something like reparations, you know, I just had in my mind like that, well, that's, you you can't give someone money for something that happened a hundred years ago and wasn't even whatever. And I, I had it in my mine that like, yeah, no, that the more considered position that that just wouldn't work. And what, and then when you

0:27:38 Thomas: Go and look at the facts of what I just brought up there and there's other examples too, where it's like, no not only that it would work. And, I also had just assumed, cause I was ignorant of history that like that somewhere along the line, I'm sure we made up for this somehow. And it's like, no, we didn't. And that just started to crumble.

0:27:55 Lexi: Down Jim Crow. We let them sit in the front seat.

0:27:59 Thomas: Yeah, and it's, like, once started to crumble, the idea that, like – oh, these things that I just assumed this intellectual right wing had answers for and had positions that were based on, you reason and, like I – once a few of those cracked, it's just like, oh, no. I looked under cover and it was just racism.

0:28:17 Thomas: Like, it was just with more, you know, like intellectual language, then it all crumbled because it's like, I just don't trust that anymore. Now every single problem you look at, it's like, no, there isn't some well -reasoned argument. It's most of all, it'S just reactionary. It's just, you It's change social and political change and resisting that, you know, and just that's, it''s so predictable now when you look at every single issue.

0:28:44 Lexi: They're all just on their face, right? On their face they sound intellectual and they sound based on actual concerns about people's, you know, wealth and their economic well -being and whatnot. But as soon as you put, poke it just a little bit and ask them to explain farther, they don't have have an answer and cracks and like we you're talking about like reparations and stuff like argument is that oh know you're going to take money and give it to these people well you're taking that money from me right that's what taxes you know you're gonna take my tax money give it to people who don't deserve it and then of course they go down the racist you lines of you know they you're not gonna buy drugs and they're gonna you know whatever with it and so then it becomes again another racist thing of like you're You're going to take my tax dollars that I earned because I went to school and I became this thing part and you're going give it to people who are just welfare Queens and they're going to do drugs. Like that's seriously what, if doing. Like they're taking, they're taken that and going down, not just stopping it. Like, Hey, you're taking my tax hours and giving it to somebody else, but you're making it racist by jumping to those conclusions. Right. And it totally crumbles. I totally agree.

0:29:49 Thomas: Other thing is, with I those protests, that's a thing I used to look at and structurally speaking, once I recognize like the reality of what's happening, then it made more sense logically to look it and think, think, okay, what would the side that's been in power that's wrong do? And what would the side. That's out of power is, you know, more impoverished is basically the, like essentially the victims in this, the, the downtrodden, what would they do? You

0:30:19 Lexi: What do they have to do?

0:30:20 Thomas: And it's like, and with the fact that they they, don't have access to as good of education, or they don't, like, there's so many reasons why there's going to be differences in what, in actions. And so then when you look at it that way and you look the arguments against the protest is just, look, they're looting. And it's just like, look at this. It's not actually about George Floyd. It is about looting, they just want to steal stuff.

0:30:25 Lexi: Of course. About looning and causing more like and it costs and it's back you're back to the financial stuff right it seriously always comes back I've noticed a trend that it always theory that or policy that they have stems of racism and goes to money or taxes or from money or taxes and goes to racism somehow they managed to do this nice cycle and yeah the looting and they're like oh they're They're creating, you know, all this damage, and they're committing all these crimes, and they're causing all these problems, but if you actually, again, if you just poked that surface and went to go look to see how much, especially crimes were being committed, there weren't, at you all as many as they were, like, making you out to believe were being commited, and, course, there was damage and whatnot, but it a a distraction right from

0:31:25 Thomas: And that's exactly my point is like systemically don't just not even, and this is how I tend to look at things. So this might be my weird brainwave looking things. Just like, just taking hypotheticals, take all the real stuff out of it and just look at a situation where you have people who have been systemically discriminated against in these, that's and an understatement to like, look at the facts of that. And the people who are the more of the beneficial end of that, even if they aren't like individually people who are doing racist stuff, like they are the beneficiaries of that how would those two groups act in this instance? And then for me, it was realizing, well, yeah, like obviously the only thing you could do if you're on the right wing side of that is try to find individuals doing doing bad things and show them enough to make people forget or not know what it's actually about. Like that just is what you would do.

0:32:14 Thomas: It's just propaganda. And the same thing goes, I don't want to drag this into it, but to my mind, the same things goes with Israel protests and all that stuff. That's what you do when you're in the wrong. You focus in small things. You're like, look at this person said this at a place, that rally, they said death to To all police officers and, you know, never mind the fact that also that's usually bullshit. But even if it's not, it's like, oh, OK, so a person somewhere said a thing that doesn't change any of the underlying facts. And once I learned enough about the underlying systemic facts, it is like it of that stuff can change. You can show me as many videos of someone breaking a window or some shit as you want, and it doesn't really change that fundamental dynamic. Dynamic.

0:32:59 Lexi: And like they do that and they pick out those stories that um going to distract you because they're emotionally triggering right they like provoke our like emotional response that makes you angry you you focus on it and you seek more of that out. And it's doing that to distract you so that you don't do exactly what you said you did is you went and looked to see at the facts, right? They don't want you to dig into it. They don'T want you TO look into those facts. And so they find some crazy story of this one isolated incident that doesn'T reflect the general population that'S being discussed. They just throw it in your face over and over again. And make you think that it's everywhere when it's not. And like you're saying, like what would the impoverished or put down group have to do? Well, you can just look at history, right? That have historically been suppressed, what they have to doing is raise their voices, right. What else do you have to do? Then make it loud and make it, make your presence known. And a lot of ways that unfortunately sometimes does have to include promoting violence, but you have make people listen to you. Right. If all of those protests hadn't have broken out and they hadn't had been so, I mean, for me, they were compelling, right.

0:34:11 Lexi: And they were compelling because it was, loud, it but it was also so persuasive and you could you know it and some of that way was the anger that you could see in them and so that's historically how suppressed populations have done it like women suffrage you of it like you to speak out and

0:34:27 Thomas: And if idea is that, but you can only do that in ways that are not going to inconvenience anyone or ever be bad in any way, it's like, well, then why would that ever do anything? And so, it is like, I how much of our political divide, and sorry, I kind of made this too much about me and how I was thinking about it, but I cannot believe how much of our political divide just comes down to fundamentally not being able to see through that one fucking trick that's the only trick they have they don't ever talk about real history it's just the trick of like bash character assassination of a whole movement based on whatever random footage you can find and my brain I'm like well no matter what the case were you would find examples of that because it's a big fucking world it's big country there's hundreds of millions, like you're going to be able to find the bad examples. So me

0:34:44 Lexi: It's interesting yeah yeah never yeah yeah exactly yeah

0:35:17 Thomas: Seeing a footage of a protester being shitty doesn't mean anything. Like it just literally is meaningless unless you could, you turn it into data. Like if it was really true that like, yes, 100% of these protesters actually are just trying to fucking hurt people or something. That would be one thing, but that's just not the case.

0:35:33 Lexi: Or I mean how much video footage do we have of all of it right like if you could literally see everybody wearing blm start smashing windows as they walk down the street like unprovoked you know exactly yeah exactly like smashing you know pulling out you and trying to attack the police or whatever like unprovoked like you wouldn't see it right that footage existed and all of that and violence existed but with all the video footage that we have all the news networks are covering it you would see it and I like we just said you're gonna find once in a while but if it was on the mass scale that they want you to think that it was then you would know Yeah,

0:35:44 Thomas: Killing grandmas or something like, yeah, sure. Okay. Yeah.

0:36:08 Thomas: And the other thing is people you're the victim in that interaction, whenever You're the more downtrodden group, the stakes are always going to be higher and indeed maybe even life and death at times for you. And so, yeah. Your your reactions to things are going to seem like I don't know, to a comfortable person, they're going to seam out of nowhere and kind of crazy. Because the stakes for these people is their lives. And the stakes, for me, is like to be a little bit more comfortable as a white person. So, I'm like, well, why are they making so much of a fuss, you know? But it's because I'm fundamentally not understanding that Their the stakes... lives are different and the stakes have been been different for so long. Here's what I want to know. Why don't we get to kind of where you are now? It's really interesting. Again, it does seem like such a fast change, but it's really cool and it's amazing. It's nice to have you over on this side. What are you doing now?

0:36:59 Lexi: Am a criminal prosecutor. And I am an assistant district attorney in a very conservative county here in Wisconsin. And I have been to the Wisconsin Bar one this May, and I'll be hitting my one-year mark at the DA's office in June. Thank you.

0:37:18 Thomas: Congratulations um am curious if you would be able to talk about what it's like being not a conservative working in you know it's not just like you work in an office somewhere it's It's like, you work in a place where I feel like it kind of matters that all these people are super conservative when it comes to administrating justice.

0:37:30 Lexi: It does. Does.

0:37:37 Thomas: Is that like?

0:37:38 Lexi: Complicated. Delegated. I mean, criminal justice is another one of the issues that people could think of when they do think of what differentiates between a quote unquote liberal or more unquote quote conservative. Because, I'm going to speak for all liberals, but they to focus a little bit more on rehabilitation rather than retribution and punishment. You know, are thinking about what can we do keep to this person from coming back? Like, they need education and a job? How can we help them get that rather than put away and lock up the key? Right. And that's actually a huge, huge part of my job is is just coming up with and recommending to the judge what I think that the person's sentence should be.

0:38:18 Lexi: I'm not kidding you. And that's probably half, I mean, when I'm not in court and I'm working on my caseload, that's about half about what I'm doing is I'm getting a referral over from a police department on an arrest that they made. They send over the report and I read the report and decide what charges are appropriate and whether to file them or not. Do yeah.

0:38:40 Thomas: And you have discretion to that level? Oh,

0:38:43 Lexi: I mean it is crazy. It is really, really crazy. The prosecutorial discretion was actually one of the reasons that I wanted to go and be a prosecutor because I realized in the mass incarceration in the United States, she learned obviously from constitutional law and all that, that the person in the courtroom that has the most power is the prosecutor, even more than the judge.

0:39:07 Lexi: I would think by a decent amount in a lot of different things. I mean, if I wanted to dismiss the case for whatever reason, obviously, you should do it on merit and not for personal reasons or anything untoward, and there are ethics standards for that, but I could. You know, if I just felt like that want to dismiss it, or if I didn't, if I just didn't want to charge it, like, if it came across my desk and, I mean, I'm a lowly, you know, new assistant district attorney, but if it went across, you know, deputy district attorney or the district attorney's office, and they just decided that they didn't wanna charge it, I yeah.

0:39:40 Thomas: Forgive me. That was kind of what I meant, because I know that you're pretty new. How do you personally have autonomy in these decisions? Or is it like, well, ultimately the, you know, still has to get approved up the chain or something, but you get to like kind of recommend and kind of, I'm just curious. I only ask because it's like interesting to think about trying to balance. Obviously, you are in a super conservative place.

0:39:52 Lexi: I mean, it mostly still has to be approved up the chain. Yes. Yeah.

0:40:06 Thomas: You know that your job is not guaranteed by any means, especially starting out super young and all that. And like, I'm just curious, like how you think about that, if you try to pick your moments, you know, or if there are ways that you're trying to be a more progressive prosecutor in a really not progressive place.

0:40:06 Lexi: Yeah, mm -hmm. Yep. Mm -hmm, yeah. Yeah, definitely. So most of my cases are still just being reviewed. Whenever I do do all of that and I review the reports, make the charging decision, do the criminal complaint, which is what you hear a lot is the indictment, right? I write that, then that's also when right away I come up with a pretrial offer. Like, right when I charge it, to come up with what I think the defendant should be sentenced to without speaking to the defendant, without knowing what they even have in a defense attorney, just off of that paperwork. Of the time, it's not even with having reviewed any of the footage or any of The Evidence. It's just reports from the officers.

0:40:58 Lexi: I have to come UP with whatI think that the outcome should be. And then that is sent over, um, my boss, um, who then reviews all of it before it's even sent to the courts so um it has been a lot of back and forth of hey come talk to me about this or um honestly she's obviously great and I just go in there I'm just honest like about I thought I think the way that I did and what my recommendation is and um like to think that she's coming around a little bit, um, understanding what, like what my purposes are rather than just jail. Right. So I'm using that and the time. And like I said, I actually do think she's starting to listen, which is huge because there's only a few deputies. And so having a deputy start to maybe open a mind would is, be huge for the whole, uh. My whole unit. It. And, um, also once it's charged, there's, I mean, a full caseload, I'm not even up to a full caseload yet. And I just, uh, hit 275 cases that I've done. Um. 200 of those are open pending cases that I have to monitor. Um other attorneys are looking at anywhere from three to five hundred open cases that they have to Monitor. So it really, once it is charged, probably why she is so um sure that she's reviewing it right off the bat is because once it's charged it's it would be super impossible to keep up with everything um obviously I would know I

0:42:17 Lexi: Want well yeah yes and I just and like I would never want to do something that would get me in trouble I'm just I hate getting in trouble it's the the worst

0:42:16 Thomas: For her to keep up with, I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah sure. Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's your job to, you, know, we all we all live in a capitalist nightmare. We get it.

0:42:31 Lexi: Well and um like but it's a like if I put out or give like a you know pretrial offer to the defense attorney saying let's shits and giggles say say that it's the defendant who has you know a couple retail thefts before and they have another you know felony retail theft and whatever and office might recommend well they keep doing it they haven't learned a lesson so jail um like really like gonna what are THEY gonna learn in jail whatever um that's honestly how we seem to do a decent amount of retail thefts is jail rather than what I would I to recommend probably every time and why she keeps being learning the lesson and I'm like but they need the that resources they get on probation probation allows them a lot of different resources and whatnot but once the pretrial offer goes out and the defense attorney comes back with the counter offer as as it's not a huge jump from what I initially and we initially decided on that pretrial offer being, it's probably going to go under the radar and going to be a better outcome for, in my opinion, everybody, but the defendant and what I think is more appropriate, I'm able to do once the cases go forward. I like that makes it sound so untoward, but I promise it's

0:43:40 Thomas: No, no. I get it. Yeah. And I don't want. Yeah, I know. Like you say anything gets you in trouble or something. I was just curious, like what I think many people know the inner workings of all that. That. And So I guess I was just trying to get a handle, a feel for like how much a, an individual individual progressive prosecutor can make a difference? I think it's an interesting question. I think It's something we've wanted to talk about on OA, and we probably still will talk in more detail. But it was just, it was so fascinating to kind of connect with you and get a chance to actually hear from someone, you know, again, new and up and coming in this exact field and working. It's so interesting to think about how, you were conservative five minutes ago, you're in a a massively conservative place. And it's almost like you're just like, you're a spy or something, you know, does it ever

0:43:53 Lexi: Not. I didn't even. Yeah. Feel

0:44:31 Thomas: Feel like that?

0:44:31 Lexi: That way. Yeah, And I actually went to, um—not to get off topic, but a, a Republican event for the electors for one of the districts here in Wisconsin Ron Johnson came to talk and our district, whatever, came to Talk. And everybody there was a super hardcore Republican. And it was the most egregious thing. I can't believe I left there. It was terrible. But I actually was a spy for that one. But no, I also do sometimes feel that way. And to get back to your point, And once I, boss and everybody feels like I no longer need the guidance and that I need the guidelines, but to just make sure that obviously we're dealing with people's lives here. What I do is important to make surethat I know what I'm doing. And I think probably, I think probationary term is about a year. So I'm about up there to the year. And that's when my cases will stop being so, you over my shoulder and I feel like I'll have have decent a amount more ability to differ from what maybe other attorneys are offering in the case, which is, mean, I that's exactly what I want to be doing. But I've kind of just been telling defense attorneys, I was like, hey, do you have, You do have a counter offer? You know, and I take that counter offer and try to do what I can with it. What I do think is really also interesting that I do a lot of is bail, setting

0:45:51 Lexi: I calculated it up recently and I have actually been the representative for the state in commissioner court, which is in Wisconsin. Don't hear the bail, initial bail arguments and the initial appearance. So that first time it's a commissioner, not a judge. So there's always a representative of the state that represents handles all of the cases that are on the commissioner's court calendar in the morning and also in the afternoon, which is actually lockups. So that's like everybody who got arrested the night before has go in front of the judge and get their bail set or whatnot. And have actually done that over 150 times since I've started in last year, which would equal roughly over 2,000 probably hearings that I have either set bail, recommended bail, or addressed a bail modification. And that really interesting phenomenon given that there are allegations and not convictions and you're locking somebody up. So

0:46:52 Thomas: Yeah, it's based on whatever factors you know what flight risk danger all all those things and it's like you're having to evaluate yeah yeah

0:46:57 Lexi: Yeah. Well, it's supposed to me. Yes. So we're supposed to, there are three technical elements that are supposed to be addressed when considering what bail should be set. One is the defendant's likelihood to come back to court so that they're not going to just leave and obviously not come back. Two, whether they pose a risk to the society and the community at large and safety. And three is that don't have a likelihood to intimidate or dissuade victims and witnesses. And those are like the three biggest issues that you're supposed to address. You also can consider the strength of the state's case, which an actual legitimate element that you can look at at the bail statute. But I really understand that one because at the initial appearance, all you have to establish is probable cause so to look at the strength of the state's case in establishing probable causes seems of kind counterintuitive to me if that makes sense but anyways that's not usually one that we focus on um

0:47:51 Thomas: I maybe it's one where it's you publicly know a guy assassinated someone you're like all right well we're pretty sure maybe yeah oh

0:47:56 Lexi: But you get half you could have 100 or 50 50 .01 doesn't matter you probably will cause what's you know you get past the initial appearance so what you see what I'm saying like at the initial clearance I don't know why why it matters but

0:48:11 Thomas: I thought it was just like Like setting a bail amount or something guess, in a multi kind of faceted way, using that certainty if it's there to kind of, you tick that up a bit or something. That's how I was thinking of it.

0:48:23 Lexi: Actually doesn't make sense and and yeah especially if it is a more like violent crime like you said you obviously they have a good strong case you have a more uh to concern for safety of the public for them being put behind bars so that that does make sense actually um yeah so if you consider um somebody who's a first -time offender in in wisconsin you know thc is still illegal so you have a first time offender that's you know arrested for possession of four grams of weed and you they have no record then you you would just give them a low signature bond which which is pretty much just a contract with an amount on it saying that I will come back to court and I will agree and abide all of the conditions that are set for me by the court that on this bond. So you get a piece of paper that says $250, I have to come backto court, I can't use or possess any controlled substances without a valid prescription or any drug paraphernalia. In Wisconsin, you also cannot drive without a valid driver's license and comply with all licensing restrictions because there's a weird court in the statute that possession of controlled substances affects your license, which is a whole nother rabbit hole. So if you do any you know, you don't come back to court or whatever, then bail, that signature bond is revoked. And it sent to judgment in civil court and the county can sue you for that amount. That's a signature bond. And you can do signature bonds in any So if you have somebody maybe who doesn't have any record but they are accused of attempted murder or something, you can use a $100,000 signature bond and there's obviously more concern with that. That's obvious. But cash bail is the one that everybody typically talks about and thinks about when they think about bail and cash bail is set in whatever amount and you have to pay that amount in order to get out of jail. And that money is then held by the court throughout the pendency of the case. And as long as you, if you're able to post that and give that money to get Out, that amount is held by The Court. If you abide by all the conditions, you come back to court, you get through to the end of it, then you get that money back. Or you can also apply it to any court fines or, you you have to make, restitution and such. That's where you hear cash bail. And especially it's interesting because you could have the where, you know, you can kind of come back to the amount of cash bail that somebody who's well off, a white man, you who has a good, successful job, who committed domestic strangulation, suffocation, whatever it is, he could pay $10,000 cash

0:50:58 Lexi: Bail and get out. Whereas somebody who might be homeless gets a disorderly conduct arrest because they're sleeping on the park bench or whatever have you. They go in to get set cash bill because they've been there a couple of times and they have a a little bit of a record because you could easily make the jump that because they're homeless and they don't have those resources, then they get a, even 25, I've seen people sit for $25 cash bail on the silliest things because they literally don't have $25. They sit pretrial for something just absolutely ridiculous, like possession of, you know, a gram and a half of weed or disorderly, you're passing out on a park bench or whatever. And that is a moral conundrum that that I have, I think, and I tend to agree with that being, you incarcerating the poor, you're incarcerate, you incarcerating, and then you arrest them, right? They, you arrest them, they're sitting in jail. Well, if they had a job, they probably don't anymore. And so guess what? You, if they do get their case dismissed or, you they figure it out and have a a good outcome. Well, they don't have a job anymore and

0:52:04 Lexi: Now they have a record and you just made it so much harder more for them to be pro -social and do the things that can get you to the point where you don't be homeless. You don't have to sleep on the park bench to get away. So it seems like you're promoting this cycle of keeping people down and that system that we seem to keep wanting to put um

0:52:25 Thomas: Yeah. So you get to have some hand in trying to do your best to counteract that a little. That's really cool. Well, we've gone, I can't believe how long we've done already. Talk for another hour, I'm sure, but I actually have to go be a parent.

0:52:32 Lexi: Probably oh my gosh a

0:52:40 Thomas: So no, really fascinating. Thanks so much for sharing your story. And I thing I've really wanted to to focus on, but it's so hard is just trying to figure out what changes people's minds. And I don't know, I feel like you might be a little bit of an outlier there. Like, I don'T know, but, but it is.

0:52:52 Lexi: I honestly don't even look at myself that way you know anymore like I actually do this like I'm the same way I'm trying I'm to do that as well um think that it's really important that we do try to listen because honestly that's how I got persuaded to change right like was that I I actually started listening to what the other side said. And in order to have a constructive conversation where your opinion is actually heard rather than just deflected, you have to engage with them as well. And then you're also given that opportunity to poke those holes that I able to luckily be poked in perspective and I saw the glass just crumble and everything. Thing.

0:53:34 Thomas: Well, thanks so much for doing this. I really appreciate it.

0:53:36 Lexi: HAS BEEN AWESOME. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.