SIO446: Believe It Or Not, The Right Has An Effective Youth Movement

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:16 Thomas: And welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 446. I'm your host, Thomas Smith, and got a great interview for you today. Kyle Spencer is a reporter who has tracked the right and specifically Charlie Kirk and Turning Point USA and Candace Owens, that kind of cadre of assholes. And she's done amazing work. She has a book called Raising Them Right, which the subtitle is The Untold Story of America's Ultra -Conservative Youth Movement and its Plot for Power. Really fascinating stuff.

Much as I think we'd all love to imagine that being right-wing is something that is for older boomers and stuff. That's just, you know, it's not true. That does skew a little that way, but it's not as true as we would like it to be. There are very young kids who are extremely right wing, who are into this stuff. And Kyle Spencer has done a lot of really good reporting on how that happened. And we're going to talk about it today.

I'm excited to get over to it as usual after this ad break, unless you are on patreon.com/seriouspod. So please consider supporting the show, skipping the ads and getting that warm, fuzzy feeling that you are making this show happen. You so much to our patrons at patreon.com/seriouspod. All right, after this break, we'll get to the interview with Kyle Spencer. Kyle Spencer, welcome to the show.

0:01:30 Kyle: It's good to be here Thomas there's

0:01:32 Thomas: We're so excited. There couldn't be more going on. Like some, I mean, the college campus stuff going there's just everything. It's the usual, as my colleague on my other show says, the news hose is on full blast. But I'm so excited to speak to you. I wife, Lydia, has been following you for some time and is a big fan of your newsletter and to have you. Specifically, I wanted to talk about your book, which I'm told is coming out on paperback soon, right? Right.

0:01:37 Kyle: Just everything that's good oh great yeah book Raising Them Right is coming out in paperback in September, just in time for the school year and for professors who want to assign it.

0:02:04 Thomas: It. Yeah, the first thing I thought of was I can remember, since At been politically active like my entire life, but when I started becoming politically active, around you Obama years, I remember the just consensus seemed to be, at least by my memory, on the left, it's like it was always a matter of time before demographics are just kind of, it was that the demographics or destiny thing, like, like young people are so left wing. Not only that, immigrants, you tend to be more left wing, and there's increasingly that, but, you know, so it was all this sense of like, it's only a matter, matter of time. And then the, the next, I guess, what, 14 years or so, is just like, okay, is it a matter of when is that going to happen? And that's the first thing I thought of. And I wanted to talk about, I know you've, you've done so much work on how the right, sort uh, of, I don't know, seduces is kind of a weird word, but just, you now, um, okay.

0:02:25 Kyle: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great word, seduces.

0:02:55 Thomas: There you go. Yeah. I mean, young kids,

0:02:56 Kyle: Yeah, I always say indoctrinate, but it just sounds, it doesn't quite sound, because seduaces is better, because for a lot of the young people it's fun. That's kind of part of the way they do it?

0:03:06 Thomas: Yeah. Would love to talk about that, but first I would love, if you don't mind, I always love hearing a little bit about background and like, how did you get interested in this area? You know, what's what'S your, your origin story here?

0:03:16 Kyle: Yeah, so I'm a longtime journalist. I've been reporting for 20 plus years. And the last stop was writing pieces mostly for the New York Times about education. And so I was on and off college campuses. What I discovered was that this idea that we had, that these college campuses were so woke, might be true for some of these elite schools, you, but but probably true for some of these small liberal arts schools of reputations for being really progressive. But when you went around the country, particularly to swing states or red states, there was actually a huge presence of radical right-wing kids who were proselytizing.

0:03:25 Thomas: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah,

0:03:56 Kyle: And I started to think, well, this is a book. I need to find out who these people are, who's funding them. And I needと let the country understand that they're out there, and that this idea that all young people are woke is just not true.

0:04:10 Thomas: That's definitely not true. Well, curious, that even the way you put it there, what made you think, or I guess, know, like, that it was something that would require funding? Why did it seem like that versus, like, oh, there just tend to be, you know, some Republican kids and they have a club on the thing, like, what, what made it seem more organized than that or

0:04:26 Kyle: Yeah. Yeah, it's great. What would happen was when I would go on college campuses, a lot of times there are days of the week in which the kids are tabling. That tabling is what they call putting a table out and having their pamphlets around. And they do that a lot in the beginning of semesters, middle of semester when they're trying to recruit people.

0:04:37 Thomas: Right.

0:04:46 Kyle: And so you know, the calligraphy club, and you've got the Dems, and the Social Dems, and then you know you would have the Hitler, now you know, you'd have the Hitler, you, the, the, the libertarians, the Turning Point USA, increasingly, and so what, you know, the visual was going on these college campuses, and you would see the, debt the Social Democrats with, like, somebody kind of asleep behind the table, um, person having a snack, a couple of loosely strewn, know, or flyers and maybe, like, you know, some handwritten sign. And then you'd go across the quad to Turning Point USA, the radical right wing youth group. And there would be balloons and candy and potato chips and loud music and giveaways and, and, swag and huge signs, multiple signs, signs with different sayings, signs that were color -coded. And I knew that cost money. So it started to dawn on me that, hey, wait a second, lot of money going to one of these groups

0:04:51 Thomas: Hitler youth. Yeah.

0:05:09 Thomas: Yeah, gosh,

0:05:47 Kyle: And it's not the social Democrats.

0:05:50 Thomas: Can relate. I mean, I went to pretty run of the mill college back college republican it a type you that, it's like I know exactly the guy who that is, at least in my region. I mean, it was a little different places.

0:06:01 Kyle: Changed, though. I mean, that's kind of what a lot of what my book is about, is that that you nerdy preppy guy in the tie and the jacket and loafers, that, that is not the, know, the visual, or even the personality or type cast, of the new radical student, you

0:06:17 Thomas: Yeah, I think I kind of caught the end of that phase. So I'm very interested in kind of the origin of this new, sounds like even worse. Every time we're like, ah, wish this would end. And it's now the next thing's worse. Sorry.

0:06:29 Kyle: My gosh. It can't get, I hope we don't get worse than this Supreme court, you discussing why why the president ought to be able to kill anyone he doesn't like. You KNOW, my book talks a lot about turning point USA and Charlie, Charlie Kirk, A lot about Charlie Kirk. I spent a lot of time with him and, him. Yeah. Yeah, I spent a lot time with Charlie and lot of time with Candace Owens and a lot of time with young libertarians, know running pushing their libertarian ideas on kids. But the idea that Charlie had when he came on the scene in around 2012 was that conservatism could be cool, that it shouldn't be an old white man thing. He pushed that. And frankly, I mean, I'll tell you something, you'd go to those Turning Point USA conferences, and people are lot of them are quite attractive, and

0:06:45 Thomas: With him? Oh, oh, wow, yeah, yeah,

0:07:17 Kyle: They're well dressed. And they're, you buying into this idea that they're cool. Cool. That was definitely part of what Turning Point USA has tried to do. And I think that most of us wouldn't consider Turning Point U .S .A. cool, but I mean, they consider themselves cool. So yeah,

0:07:18 Thomas: Yeah, right, yeah, what do you think did that? I mean, I I, because obviously it's the least cool thing in the world, but, no idea, it is effective, and I tell you which thing, and, and what, what is that exactly, is it just the presence of young people, mm,

0:07:41 Kyle: Yeah. Well, it's yeah. You know, it is funny because the thing that I find so interesting about Turning Point US and Charlie Kirk, who everybody knows has a very tight tie with Trump and Trump's family and Don Jr. or Junior, as he's called in the hinterlands. But, he mirrored his rise, has really mirroed Trump's rise, and he's really Trump in a lot of ways. And so both Trump and Charlie are or were outsiders.

0:08:14 Kyle: So wealthy circles, but everybody thought he was gauche and, you know, he was new money and he was flashy and he was uncouth and right. He was he was an outsider. And Charlie Kirk grew up in a suburb of Chicago in a high school that was going from mostly white to mostly black and Hispanic. And so he became an outsider in his high school. And then his viewpoints became increasingly conservative. So he became even more of an outsider. And 30.

0:08:18 Thomas: -hmm, how old is he? I realize I have no sense of, health oh, it hurts. Oh, he's looked older than me the whole time, though, I think I'm just I'm gonna tell myself that college republicanism adds 20 years to your face.

0:08:47 Kyle: He's 30 now. I know. I know, I it definitely does. It definitely does, but he's kind of, it's like his revenge, you know? So starting Turning Point USA, the whole idea was, I, everybody hates us, but we're gonna, we're going to get revenge, because we're going to start creating our own click, and it's going to be cool, you know, and then it was like, and then, you know, and then we're going to harass other people and we're going to make fun of them, and then we're going to have these big signs that say we love guns, and we're going to scare them, and, you know, like, it's kind of a big revenge project.

0:08:59 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's all grievances all the way down, right?

0:09:32 Kyle: It's all grievances, you know, but the interesting thing about Charlie is, he actually, even though I think this was really where he came from emotionally and politically in the very beginning, he was really about small government. That's what he talked about. He talked about, you know, he was obsessed with the budget deficit and trade wars with China and taxation.

0:09:45 Thomas: Yeah, that's old college republicany stuff, stuff.

0:09:54 Kyle: Yeah, that's all old call. And he was was totally really, that's what he pushed. That's what he talked about. He got into his first really on college campus scene and where he gained a lot of notoriety was with his Socialism Sucks campaign. I don't know if you remember that, but and that seemed really, for a lot OF the older Republicans that funded Charlie, that seemed very really risque. Of course, you know.

0:10:11 Thomas: That sounds familiar. Yeah.

0:10:23 Thomas: They're already funding. Okay. How does that work? Was he just a normal guy or was he like a nepo baby of somebody?

0:10:31 Kyle: No, no, no. Not at all. It comes from a middle, upper middle class family, but not rich. He was kind of considered rich in his high school. You know, they lived in one of those subdivisions with lots of big houses. And I think they lived on one of the nicer ones in the area he was in, but he wasn't in a really ritzy, ritzy Chicago suburb. The thing about Charlie Kirk is he is unbelievably ambitious. He's just, you know, like, I don't know anyone. I mean, Trump's ambitious. I don't know anyone that age who's more ambitious. He's just an unbelievably ambitious person. And that combination of being super, super ambitious and angry. Point is, he knows how to gravitate towards power. He just smells it. And He understood quickly that money was power in these Republican circles and that he needed to get around rich people and convince them that he had this product that was great, which was the, you indoctrination or seduction, as you put it, um, young people, um, That's what he did, he became, got friendly with these really, really rich characters that, um, conservative rich characters, and

0:10:35 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:11:34 Thomas: Do know who? Like is Koch it Koch Brothers? Is it, like, Peter Thiel? Or do we kind of not really know? Is it shadowy? Various and sundry, shadowy assholes. Yeah.

0:11:41 Kyle: So, um, interesting how Charlie launched into the far-right Republican scene. He got himself a ticket to the Republican National Convention in August 2012, and he had on the plane going there, he had literally memorized the name of all the rich Republicans that he thought were going to be there. And in a stairwell, he saw one of them.

0:11:55 Thomas: -hmm oh my god Wow.

0:12:07 Kyle: And this guy was this like swashbuckling, silver haired, lumbering character named Foster Freeze, who's a gazillionaire and very conservative. And he just walked right up to him and told him that he was starting this youth group and that he was going to make, he was going to create the next moveon.org and Foster Freeze said, okay, and gave him a check. And that was the first check he got. And from there it just skyrocketed.

0:12:31 Thomas: Hmm. Wow. The real affirmative action is just being right wing. And it's like, hey, you want to, um, are you moderately talented, but you're willing to like sell yourself out for the the right? Yeah, here's a stack of money. Like, here's literally, here's a check. Yeah.

0:12:56 Kyle: And like had everything. He was handsome. He had this, I mean, it's just so interesting, right? With all of these people, they just have this magic mix, Right. And of course, it's not it shouldn't be called a magic mix. It's like some sort of diabolic mix. Right. He's attractive. He has this like he had this kind of puppy dog sheepish way about him where These older ritzy Republican. Republican, they, him, they just loved him and he treated them like they were aunts and uncles Liked that. Yeah.

0:13:04 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Yeah.

0:13:26 Thomas: And of the right wing to me seems to be if you boil it down just how do rich people make a bunch of non-rich people vote in their interest. You, it's core, it's. And I fell for a lot of those arguments as a kid. It's like the small government, that it's stuff, not good though. It works a certain degree. And then I feel like they've had obviously the advantage of our stupid system, the Electoral College, the fact that the Senate gives vastly more power than they should have. And so like they've been able to kind of minority rule and have these positions, but they're not really popular. Like people makes sense to me that whoever this, you asshole is they who I make a bajillion dollars and then they're like, hmm, how can I keep things incredibly favorable to me? You for them to cut a check for, I don't, I dunno what kind of check we're talking, but for you them, to cut a check for tens of thousands of dollars is nothing. Like it's just like literally nothing Nothing to them.

0:13:37 Kyle: Yeah.

0:13:53 Kyle: Paul, It's Nothing. It's Nothing for them, yeah, and he cut him a small check and then became one of his biggest donors, he gave Him a little seed money, said, and wanted, you know, go, go take this and see, and I'm gonna watch and see what you do with it. Um, yeah, I mean, that's the thing, like I always tell people that I, I went to five CPACs when I was writing this book, which was five too many and Um, It was really, I mean, they were just so emotionally exhausting going to these things, but that was really shocking to me but made a lot of sense was how much fun these people have at their their conferences and their events.

They have so much fun because it's so much more fun than Democrats have. Right. Because when Democrats think about government, right, they think about the most needy, the folks who are most hurting. And that's what progressives, that's that's what they believe in, is we are all moving along in this world and we got to pull up the folks who are hurting the most and so the most vulnerable. So there is something kind of depressing about

0:14:22 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah

0:15:15 Kyle: That. You know, it's like inspiring. It's inspiring, but it's a little you're it's focusing on hurting citizens. Right. And that's what we think of government. Right? We think government is there to help. It's not a big party. Government's there to help. But these guys don't believe that. They think the people who are hurting are, you know, it's their own darn fault.

0:15:15 Thomas: Yeah.

0:15:36 Kyle: And they think, right.

0:15:35 Thomas: They're victims and they're getting undue sympathy and they yeah there's a lot there. Yeah it

0:15:39 Kyle: Yeah. Yeah, and they're lazy and they you know and they don't want to work hard I

0:15:43 Thomas: Is very cognitively easy to be like that. It's so much easier. You know, there's a study recently that we've actually been meaning to cover that did make the claim that people on the left are more anxious and depressed and all that kind of thing. It. I'm not sure the study actually holds up, but it may.

0:15:47 Kyle: Know it's so much easier yeah

0:15:59 Thomas: And even if it does, it kind of makes sense that like what motivates me to vote and be an activist to any degree is like just trying to alleviate suffering in the world, in the country. Like that's what does it. It's not it's not a party at the same time. I mean, I feel like, you there's young people, there's fun, like there just is, you Know, and so, yeah, but it's going to be so much more fun to be a young piece of shit. Who's like, yeah, all these fake victims. That's awesome. Let's protect our hordes of money.

0:15:59 Kyle: Yeah yeah yeah I know yeah absolutely yeah totally and it's inspiring you let's yeah like I'm here to protect my bank account and I'm HERE TO MAKE SURE THAT government doesn't create any regulations that are going to keep me from getting as rich as I possibly want, you know? So they're just like, yeah, yeah.

0:16:27 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:16:39 Thomas: The question I have for you. When because now it's all grievance. I feel like in the beginning, it sounds like Charlie Kirk had some of those, you know, those normal Republican things. Have Do any insight into that transition? You know, is that a story you could tell at all?

0:16:51 Kyle: I mean, yeah, and it's funny because it it was fairly slow, but I that, that just felt like he, I think it was coming coming at him was this, that, you pushes for equity on college campuses and concerns about people's identities was increasing. So when I think you see this kind of pushback from him. But very early on, he brought on Candace Owens, and he really is responsible for Candace Owen's fame. I mean, 90% of her fame comes from him him promoting her very early on. He brought her on, there was really when he started to explore this racialization of his movement and to really use her as a great tool to talk about racial politics and to not advocate for people of color, but, and to be able to do that with like a quote unquote clean conscience because he had a black woman next to him, so

0:17:47 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah. Right yep yep, I I made reference to affirmative action and it's one of the saddest the things about Clarence fucking Thomas is his whole motivation seems to be based, he on didn't want people to think he only got something because he was black, and he hates affirmative action, like the irony is, yeah man, you only got your thing because you're a black, black conservative. Like you, you exactly became the thing you didn't want to, because you appealed to that kind you know, that the, conservatism and the ability for white racists to like use you as their, you kind of thing. And, it's and so sad to see that. Now I have to confess, I know nothing about Candace Owens. I have a weird thing where like, as interested as I am in this, I, people piss me off so much. I can't really like look at them. So I would love to hear more about this. I actually wasn't aware that that was in specifically the kind of origin of her. I would have assumed it's Ben Shapiro or something. But can you tell us a little more about that?

0:17:58 Kyle: Yeah yeah I I know I know right yeah yeah yeah no He heard her talk at an event at funder -donor event, and he was blown away and said, I want her to join Turning Point USA as one of our comms. I think originally she came on as the comms director, and that lasted for a short while, but what it allowed him to do is to just go around with her all over the place and say things that a lot of people would consider quite racist or insulting to people of color and have her back him up.

0:18:57 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah.

0:19:12 Kyle: So that was, yeah, but, but he did. And then, and then she went from there, but he, he got her, um, first followings because he, he really catapulted her into the limelight and she was touring countries around the country. And she was, doing um. Interviews on TV, on Fox. And then she would, you know, she would do a lot of things. And then when she was starting, you know, eventually, obviously she started her own podcast. Oh, she did her own show. And then she did a pot, you you know, she, oh, I know PragerU had her working, you know? So she just, she launched from him.

0:19:40 Kyle: He's a really, I mean, and that was a great find for him. And she's a great, I, I actually think that now she's so popular among a certain group of people. And I think it's apolitical, frankly, I don't think they see her necessarily as so political, even though she, I just, I don'T know, know, because there are just so many of these kids flock to her. I believe it must be more because of some of the things that aren't political that she says, because I can't imagine on a college campus this many kids are political.

0:19:13 Thomas: God. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.

0:19:58 Thomas: Interesting.

0:20:14 Thomas: Like what? Well, really, I don't know. It's pretty political.

0:20:16 Kyle: I'm telling you, you wouldn't believe it. She sells out.

0:20:18 Thomas: What kinds of things did you say that are not political?

0:20:20 Kyle: I went to the university of North Florida, Chapel Hill, and I recently saw her, she went to speak there And there were lines around the campus to get into the auditorium where she was speaking. She frequently speaks and people can't get in and get seats. And it's crazy.

0:20:21 Thomas: Oh, get the sense that it's actual students there or is it like outside?

0:20:36 Kyle: Yeah, yeah. No, people really like her. I mean, first of all, you know, I think this is the thing that Democrats really have to get a handle on is that, you Know, charismatic characters, you know, fascist and authoritarian figures are always charismatic. Charismatic. I mean, all of them, they have to be right. And, and so, but I think what happens is we find what they say so repulsive that we refuse to accept the fact that they have a charisma that, that, yeah, like Trump is just enormously alluring to people. He's a character. Charlie Kirk is enormously allure to people and Candace Owens is too. And I spent a lot of time with her. She's a very magnetic person, she's has two sides.

0:20:51 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Well, they have to be. Yeah, 100%. I will cop to that 100%. Yeah, always found her so unpleasant, though. I don't know. I probably only see the story because, again, I don't pay super close attention.

0:21:21 Kyle: Yeah, she has two sides. She has one side, which is incredibly warm, and then she has this other side, which has just, like, vicious, um, she she has a she has a vicious side, or she's like a street fighter. Yeah.

0:21:26 Thomas: Yeah, hmm. I think I only see that side. But, you know, they also love. I mean, it really feels like Trump solidified the fact that it's all grievance, and people on the right love people who are going to hate the same people as them. And it just feels like that, laugh at people, in a huge draw, it seems like. So, but what kind of, I'm curious, what kind of political things is she saying?

0:21:54 Kyle: She talks a lot lot about traditional families and traditional female roles and her faith.

0:22:00 Thomas: Well, that's political, don't you think?

0:22:02 Kyle: I mean, it is and it isn't, you know, some of it is she talks a lot about women, you know, talks about like women getting married and, and their families before their careers. I mean it is political in a way, but young people are trying to figure a lot of that out themselves. You know, we live in a really shifty world right now and people People are trying to figure out where they fit into that. And particularly a lot of these young people who come from conservative and religious families, they they're trying to find a way to get out of this. They're trying figure it out. And so she comes in with this with a picture that looks modern. It sounds modern, but is really 1950s retro. But she's well -dressed and sexy and has a lot OF money and wears beautiful clothes. And so she kind of makes it all seem not or oppressive. She makes it sound like really cool, like, hey, drink some of this. It's delicious. You know, and and then the white boys lover, because she is so, so happy to, you denounce efforts to create more equity. And she

0:22:17 Thomas: Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

0:23:01 Kyle: Is the biggest supporter of, you know, white male privilege of just about any of them. I know.

0:23:06 Thomas: Yeah. It's weird. Didn't she have a falling out with Ben Shapiro? Is that, didn't that just happen? Or

0:23:08 Kyle: Yeah. She did. Well, I mean, because she's been, um, disagreed on this Israeli issue in Israel. Yeah.

0:23:18 Thomas: Oh, interesting.

0:23:19 Kyle: So that was their falling out. You, she has. That's kind of how she works. She, she has falling falling outs with people.

0:23:20 Thomas: Huh. Well, people who would be drawn to this line of work to, know, selling out in order to get, you fame and attention and whatever. There's a certain narcissism that I don't think combines well with working well with others, like they all need to be their own little star, kinda. I feel like that could be part of it with a lot lot of these folks. But maybe that's unfair. I don't know. Though. I do see that culture stuff. The difference. I see that as very political, but I see what you mean in that it's not like politics. It'S not like legislation or anything. It's like appealing to culture. And to many people, maybe that doesn't read as political at all. To me, it certainly does, but maybe it's because I'm over too much attention to the internet. You know, yeah,

0:23:39 Kyle: Yeah. Yeah.

0:24:02 Kyle: Yeah, and I'll tell you something that I thought was so interesting was, somebody was talking about Trump, right? What was the appeal for, you know, certain middle America folks, or Christian, you, Christians or evangelicals, like what was the appeal, and obviously this is so complicated, we don't want to get into that, but he said this guy said like on some level Trump really is the family, he really is the president who represents family, or the, you know, the character, the reference, family, yeah, I know, and I thought, what are you talking about, and he said he's like because he's, because he, he's like the patriarch and he's got like these disgruntled ex-wives. He's got these kids that he can kind of can't control. And he's got, do, do, at the end of the day, listen to him.

0:24:34 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm.

0:24:42 Kyle: It's like this sort of really conservative vision of family and they're around. They're not estranged. I mean, it's so bizarre, but his kids are generally around and they work in his company, you know, and he gets them, helps them get ahead. And so, know, so I think, I think, like, that is a package that is what a lot of them are selling, a lot. I mean, that's what Charlie Kirk is selling. They're selling this return to something, this some sort of traditional family.

0:24:46 Thomas: Yeah. Mm hmm. Just think it's linked to so much toxic masculinity and misogyny. I really think that it's at know, and healthy dose of racism. But, you

0:25:13 Kyle: Yeah. Oh. Ja, but that's when I talk about traditional family, it's, it's all about maintaining the hierarchy.

0:25:24 Thomas: Well, not only that, I think there's another link of of the race component to the toxic masculinity, which is never, apologizing. So like being forced to take into consideration things other than yourself is something that's like a certain type of person. Yeah. And it's a lot of people look at any attempt to get you to recognize something like that or maybe to change to, God forbid, modify your behavior in some way is looked at as like, well, I don't do that. I'm a man. I do what I want. I don'T apologize for anything. And that masculinity appeals to a lot of people and not just men, obviously. It appeals to a lot people the board. Love that version of unapologetic. You can't make me do anything. It's incredibly selfish. I think it has connections to all of that,

0:25:32 Kyle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't do that. Yeah yeah.

0:26:08 Kyle: Oh,

0:26:08 Thomas: Like being that patriarch at the head of the family. Characterize and cast the left as just the whiny people who want them to modify their behavior in some way. And really, think that's a big link to it, yeah.

0:26:11 Kyle: Yeah I totally agree with you. I think that this going to be in the world and that 95% of the people, you don't actually have to pay any attention to. You literally don't have to see them. I know it's so sad, but the flip side of that, I will say that rage But from the Charlie Kirks of the world and these young people, the rage is there because there is this incredibly powerful force of other young people who are, you the streets to say people matter, people you matter.

0:26:28 Thomas: It's So sad.

0:26:50 Thomas: Yeah. And fundamentally, they know they aren't really cool. They know that, like, the cool youth thing will always- It's the same way as Trump still wishes he was like- Of that. That, you- know, society, that upper society of New York that he still like has the same references and like wants the same magazines to interview or whatever, you know, it's kind of interesting and he'll never be that, but like in a weird way, like he was able to win one over on us for sure.

0:27:01 Kyle: Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:27:20 Thomas: And in the same way that Charlie Kirk is, and, it's like, you're you'RE still just fighting for the fascists. Like you're not, but think this question matters that much, but it is interesting to talk about in a true believer and who's just kind of doing it for the money or the fame or the whatever. You know, do you have any sense of that?

0:27:19 Kyle: Yeah, I know. I know, -huh. Yeah, It's so funny that this is a question everybody asks and it's so fundamental to this understanding of who these people are and I think that's what it's so baffling when they seem so evil and what they do is so disruptive and so raging, you know, so raging but I that I get a lot is are they do they believe it or are they grifters? Well, it's both. It's they believe in their grifter's and that's the way that that's the world they live in is you get to grift off of whatever it is that you're pushing. Um, they originally, it is, I think a lot of times they come to believing something, something, but then they convince themselves and they absolutely believe it, but like I think, you know, we all hear like, well, God tells them to do all these things. Well, curiously, you know, God oh yeah, I mean, Charlie Kirk thinks that God and the devil are just walking around and, and curiously,

0:27:39 Thomas: Mm hmm. Yeah. Right. Oh, really? Hmm. That's

0:28:28 Kyle: God, yeah, I means, and curiously, like, God, you know, says man ought to be in control, white man, man ought to be in control. Oh, that's interesting.

0:28:28 Thomas: Really stupid. Sorry.

0:28:37 Kyle: He didn't, you know, yeah.

0:28:37 Thomas: That is so coincidental. Yeah.

0:28:40 Kyle: But, but they, but they also believe that because a lot of them believe that the Bible supersedes the Constitution and that, you know, that, that the ethics ought to be more important than the Bill of Rights and all that, then that means that they will do things that are the lie and they'll cheat and they're stealing, they'll do illegal things, because they actually think that that's okay. So it's not like, it's not like I don't, you know, in terms of stealing, I'm sure they believe the election was stolen. Anything that they did that was illegal is totally fine in their eyes. God, they've on their side.

0:29:00 Thomas: Yikes. Yeah. Know, I recently in where there's woke other the show, we were talking about Jordan Peterson and they instance of him just outright lying about stuff about old research and all this stuff. Was And interesting because I said said both like, think he believes what he's saying. And I had also said he's lying. And then someone actually more than more than one person, several people kind of wrote in were like, how are you saying both those things? Like, how could he believe what he's saying, but also he knows he's lying? And for me, like, what came to my mind, let me know if this makes sense to you, was the well, I think it's like when a cop plants evidence.

0:29:16 Kyle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:29:43 Thomas: Don't plant evidence because they think the guy is innocent. Like, I mean, maybe that happens one out of a million times, you know, who knows, but like, most of the time it's like, well, this guy definitely did it. Let's just make sure that happens or that, you know, it's, like, being willing to lie because you, it is because you believe yourself it is because you think you have the right, cause that you're like, well, then it's okay if I, like, plan evidence because, like, this is what should happen. Like, this person should be

0:29:53 Kyle: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I know it's a hundred percent that's, I mean, that's a hundred percent what it is. And hundred percent, like,

0:30:04 Thomas: Yeah, interesting that you always get that question and I totally believe that because we all don't want that to be like we All Wanted to be Like well, no one could really be that way, right?

0:30:13 Kyle: Believe that well, I think we don't want it, like, I think that, like, you know what it is, you know, it is, it's that we all want, somewhere the depths of their hearts, they know they're bad. We want them to have somewhere deep down a sense of, like, like, what I'm doing is wrong. You know what? They don't, don't.

0:30:15 Thomas: Like yeah, yeah, that's sad. Yeah.

0:30:34 Kyle: Charlie Kirk thinks that what he's doing is right. And, and, you know, Tyler Bauer who been he's the guy who's kind of behind the scenes of Turning Point USA who

0:30:39 Thomas: Who is that? Shit. Not another YouTuber I have to watch or something.

0:30:46 Kyle: He's Tyler really Bauer, who is the behind the scenes guy who does a lot of the Turning Point USA dirty work, he's an Arizona character. And just the other day, he was he for. Electoral fraud. For.

0:31:01 Thomas: Was he one of the Arizona ones? Oh wow. Was he a fake elector?

0:31:02 Kyle: He was one of the Arizona ones. Yeah for

0:31:07 Thomas: Oh that's fantastic.

0:31:08 Kyle: Being a fake elector. And like a lot of them will do what he needs to do to get what he believes is right so and and yeah and like you and know I'm sure that Tyler thinks that he's was God's elector, you know convinces himself of that I

0:31:16 Thomas: Yeah. They believe they won and so it's fine if they cheat to win because they won. Oh yeah, how many electors does God get, is he, uh, big state small? It would be weird to have anyone else get electors, like if God got, he would think God if God were real and wanted electors, he should probably just get all of my guests. Oh these people. Sorry, it's very silly to me.

0:31:30 Kyle: Know I know and then what happens when yeah I know I know these people but Yeah, it's not like we want them to feel badly, but they don't know, we want them to understand they're horrible and they're mean and they are terrible people, but actually they feel they're victims and they really, really, really a hundred percent feel that way. And they don't, they don'T have any guilt or shame.

0:31:54 Thomas: Well I think you're totally right, uh, for me it's, I would modify it slightly because I know that nobody thinks they're evil, like everyone has their story of how they're good, but I do still hang on to times where, okay, you know, you're just lying about this though, right? Like maybe they believe they're doing it for good reasons, but that's where I come from too, is like, they have to know their lying or or do they just not have a grip on reality? And maybe it depends on the specifics, you do, you get the sense that there are times when it might be a bit of a wink and, know, with a lot of Trump stuff, we got the feeling that not only did Trump know he was lying, but also his audience knew he was lying and they didn't care. You know, it was like part of the fun.

0:32:05 Kyle: Yeah. Yeah.

0:32:33 Thomas: Are there those kinds of things, do you think, where it's, where it's kind of that collective gaslighting?

0:32:39 Kyle: I mean, I, of the last times that I talked to Charlie Kirk's PR guy, always been very straight with them and I never tried to convince them of anything because I was just trying to understand how they did their work and what they believed. And I was very clear about my positions, but I didn't fight with them. And so I took everything at face value, basically. And when they began to deny that Biden had been elected and that he had won the election, there had been all of this voter fraud, I said to the PR guy for the first time, I kind of like, looked behind the curtain, and said, you, that's not true, don't you? And I was like, it was a genuine question. And he was so angry.

0:33:18 Thomas: Wow. Really?

0:33:21 Kyle: Yeah, he was so angry, and how dare you? How dare you? That was the attitude. That was it. And then it was sort of like, You've betrayed us. How how dare you?

0:33:25 Thomas: Yeah. Wow. Interesting. OK, let me let to parse that. Is that a reaction that is, of course, Trump won? Or how dare you question that I would believe what I say kind of thing?

0:33:43 Kyle: Yeah. I think it was, I think it was one of those, well, you know, somebody who's just a liar and then they go, I can't believe you could accuse me of that. I can't believe you could accuse me of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I

0:33:51 Thomas: Yeah, that's what I mean. That's what I Mean, like, yeah, it's like the you have to overreact that way and to go on the offensive when you're kind of, so that would suggest to me, like, I don't know, maybe they do know it's bullshit. And that reaction is more.

0:34:02 Kyle: Think they do it. I Think it's a gut thing, like more of a gut thing. So I think he just was going, they just go quickly to that mode and then they don't actually ever have to ask themselves, well and then I was the enemy that was, and it needs to be very clear-cut for them, so then I was, oh, now she's the enemy because there's no gray here, you know, we don't work in gray, um, they stopped talking to me, and it was really, I had, mean, obviously it was towards the end of the book, but then I had to just, in terms of fact-checking and everything, I just had to do it without them, which was kind, kind of a pain, but I

0:34:03 Thomas: Yeah. Mm hmm. For It's very instinctual. Wow. Shit. Really fascinating. So what happened as a result of that? You just lost all access or? Mm hmm? Jeez.

0:34:36 Kyle: Got a lot of access to them until I got a tremendous amount of access to them. Until the to to suggest that Biden hadn't won. And then of course, the insurrection. So it's like right around that time was when, when they really stopped talking to me. And, it wasn't the time when they really started to scare the hell out of me. Like I was so they scared Me. I thought these people are really I went from, don't agree with anything these people are doing, some of this stuff is really, really detrimental to society, but I can talk to them and I guess I can understand sometimes where they're coming from, to this guy scares the hell out of me because he'll do anything.

0:34:47 Thomas: Jeez. Boy, Yeah. Sure. Wow. Wow. Didn't even think about that, so, this was around this level of involvement did Charlie Kirk have with like, that movement, that's

0:35:15 Kyle: So, what, was narration the insurrection, and while he was narrating it, he was just so stoic, as if he did not even have any emotion whatsoever about the people being hurt and wounded and the violence. And I will never forget how stoic he was. And that's when I thought, this guy will do anything.

0:35:36 Thomas: But, but, I mean, if that one guy you talked about, who is what but his producer or something, was a fake elector, suggests some level of like, actual involvement. Do you think there's any involvement with the people who planned it or people?

0:35:45 Kyle: Oh yeah. And they were, they took, I mean, they sent buses, they sent young people. I reported in my book that they sent young people to Washington, D.C., to March. And they ended up that when they began to realize how violent it was getting, they, they got got them back out of the, you got a sense at some point that was going to be very violent. And this was this was before the event actually happened. Were busing people there. And the morning they were bussing them, it was obvious to me that they knew this was going to turn very, very violent, and so they told their kids, you can hear the president speak or the vice president, but you can't go to, you can go to the Capitol.

0:35:53 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm. Really?

0:36:22 Kyle: And they, that suggests that they were very insider and aware of what was happening and they want to make sure they were saving the kid, their kids' asses.

0:36:26 Thomas: Yeah. That's very interesting. And these are like college turning point kids or something?

0:36:29 Kyle: Yeah. These were college kids, I know.

0:36:33 Thomas: That is, that's a fascinating thing to ponder. What do you make

0:36:37 Kyle: I know.

0:36:37 Thomas: Of it? Yeah. What do you makes of that? Is that, how much of that is like, image saving though? You know, like how much,

0:36:39 Kyle: I know. Oh, no, I think they were, I think he wanted to make sure that he didn't have any blood on his hands and none of his kids did. Oh,

0:36:49 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. So it's not. Well, OK. So my first interpretation was like literally for the kids safety. But then it's like, I don't. Was that not how you meant it? Like, it's more like, we oh, don't want our name on this thing.

0:37:00 Kyle: Yeah, I mean I think it was, I think I mean, who knows what is, what the first motivation was, but I, I think it was just, not, they didn't want them near it because, because they didn't want to get in trouble.

0:37:03 Thomas: Yeah, that's is fascinating. Well what an interesting time to be covering those folks.

0:37:11 Kyle: I know.

0:37:13 Thomas: Oh, that is fascinating. Could We go forever on this, but I want to make sure that we once again throw out the plug for that book because, wow, that ist fascinating. Raising Them Right. In 22, right? But the is coming out in September. September. Else you want to point our listeners?

0:37:27 Kyle: Yes. And I have a newsletter, particularly for folks who are journalists or who follow journalists called Reporting Right, and it's on Substack and it comes out every Wednesday. So that's another, if you're interested in this topic, that's Another Place to Find information.

0:37:44 Thomas: Was an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much, Kyle Spencer. You're doing great work. I appreciate your time.

0:37:46 Kyle: Thank you. Great. Thank you so much.

0:38:08 Kyle: My book reporting right is coming out in September and paperback no

0:38:11 Thomas: Right. Is it raising them right or. OK, I was like, shit, did I get it wrong?

0:38:13 Kyle: I'm sorry raising my yeah no no no I'm

0:38:17 Thomas: Various and sundry, shadowy assholes. Yeah.