Deported by an Immigration Court in a Strip Mall

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:52 Thomas: And welcome to Opening Arguments. I'm This your host, Thomas Smith, and this is part two of the conversation with Azul. Even more in store for you in part two. To reset a little bit, had been arrested. She had called her mom. Her mom wasn't even able to tell her about her status, so at this point, Asul still doesn't even know she's undocumented. For all she knows, this is some miscommunication, some misunderstanding, but she's gone through a traumatizing experience in ICE custody.

Because of persistent calls by her brother the help of this other family that we've gotten to learn a little bit about, we'll hear more about in this part. For those reasons was she able to make bail and get out. Where we'll pick up. She still, at this point in the story, doesn't even know she's undocumented, which I can't even imagine what that must have been like. We'll hop on over to part two with Azul. Course, make sure you listen to part one.

Also, if you'd like to support the show, please go to patreon.com/law. You can avoid the ads, including this little brake right here, before we give it a go. We'll get back into it.

0:01:54 Thomas: Were we we're so, at bail so that nice family and your brother put up bail, okay? Yeah

0:01:58 Azul: Get bailed out. It's my birthday. I get bailed out. Happy birthday to me.

0:02:01 Thomas: Happy birthday. Cool, yeah. Hey, honestly, bail was better than anything I got for my birthday. I was like, no I'm just kidding.

0:02:03 Azul: Um, mean, you know, and it was like, I think it was, like, my 22nd birthday, which, again, when the detective got mad, I just remember being, like – it's not even a fun age. Like, why would I lie about this?

0:02:18 Thomas: Yeah. What a weird lie for you to say, for some okay, yeah.

0:02:21 Azul: Yeah. So I got bailed out. I I just remember being, like, so uncomfortable with, like my own body and with existing in the world. And, like – because I couldn't figure out – like, I remember I just, like walked in the house. So the family that had paid bail for me were like, staying with us, which I just walked in and I didn't have any clothes except what I was wearing.

0:02:29 Thomas: God, instead of where where so you were, were you living on campus? What was your school status at this point?

0:02:49 Azul: Was summer. It was summer break. I'm baby. Holler at us, Geminis. School was out and I was staying with somebody else who I was paying rent or something like that. You the person that I was with had given me a lot of these warnings that were not making sense to me. And yeah, ja, ja.

0:02:50 Thomas: Okay. Gotcha.

0:03:06 Thomas: They, oh, the person you were with was part of that process, that cryptic, weird, like white person cult town. I don't even know. This is, this is such horror is honestly, it's like, wow. Okay. And so that's why the family was like, you're living with us.

0:03:16 Azul: Yeah. And like a long time, it and it's something that took me years to work out. Right. Because I just didn't want anybody touching me or like, it was like this, when I stepped in the house, I just remember thinking like knee jerk reaction was, "Oh my God, they're going to ask me to take off all my clothes." And then they did it, I was so relieved. Would That have been so awkward, imagine. I because, you know, know, they had four little kids, um, but they were so instrumental, in like, were like, "We know you're not a bad person, like, want your kids around," and just to their credit, to like this couple's credit, um, kids still, still refer to me as their big sister. There were toddlers back then and now they're all in college, and talked to them, uh, at least like, uh, a week, once every couple of weeks, and it's always, "Hi, big sister."

0:03:55 Thomas: That's amazing.

0:04:05 Azul: Like

0:04:05 Thomas: Can I tell you like serious point, hashtag white privilege goals, you know? Cause like, I'm not even joking. There's so much bitterness online really like the opportunity to point out it's like, not just about being angry at our terrible racist system, which is a big part of it. It's an awful racist system. Totally. But also look at this example of how instrumental fundamental these people who I'm maybe I'm assuming a lot, but they seem to be pretty privileged white people. Right. This family, it seemed like.

0:04:30 Azul: Yeah.

0:04:30 Thomas: But like, look what at the good they wereable to do. And if you are someone like me, like if you're a lot of our listeners who have the time and essentially privilege to be able to pay attention to stuff like our podcast, you know, to pay attention to politics and follow all that that kind of stuff. Is like such a good example of what you can do, like a positive example of utilizing your privilege, make a massive difference in someone's life. And it's inspiring, genuinely.

Like these people sound amazing. I want just very careful because it's also a fine line. Like I'm not trying to make them the hero of your story, and like a Sandra Bullock Blindside bullshit white savior sense, or or anything. I just know that like lot of our demographic is going to be maybe people who could be in that position, and the, those people, rather than the guy who's yelling at you for sweating. That's all I'm saying.

Like, like if you are someone, a white person of privilege, it's nice to like, see like, "Hey, here's good examples of what you can do," uh, than, you know, being part of the problem. And I just wanted to point that out.

0:04:31 Azul: They're

0:05:24 Matt: I will add, there are organizations probably near you, to anybody listening, that can help connect you with court support and helping people who are going through these things, and honestly helping to pay immigration bond, because that's so expensive, like we're talking about. We can talk more about that, I think, because that is something really people, if they want to get involved, they can do it. There's a lot of ways to help.

0:05:27 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

0:05:40 Azul: So this family had taken me in and mom, she was like, "You need to talk to your brother." Was like, "Why do I need to – I mean, you know, I was –" I remember in the back of my head being like, "Of course, I guess I need to talk to him because" "I'm out." She was like, "You need to talk to him." Okay. And she was very gentle about it. And my brother, you know, my brother and I are talking and I was like, "There has to be something we can do." And he was like, "No." And I was, like, "What do you mean, no?" He's just, like, "I really know how to say this?" You mean? You know, it's, sort of, like I mean, I don't know.

I haven't been told I was adopted before, so I guess I shouldn't make that comparison. He was just like, "You don't have papers. Like, you are undocumented." And I was like, "Wait, what do you, what do you mean I'm undocumented?" And he was like, "You're, like, what they call illegal here." Then I just remember, remember, um, his, like I was just like, "Wait, no, I'm not, I'm that's not me." And he was just like, "No, that is very much you, and you I'm so sorry." And it's interesting because a lot of people are like, "The adults should have told you," and I get that, but I also get the fact that I don't know that I would have assimilated as well if I had known. Um, and part of my saving grace socially was me assimilating so well, you

0:05:54 Thomas: Yeah.

0:06:57 Thomas: The point where, as you said earlier, you were joking about being undocumented without knowing that you were. And then you have this conversation where, you I'm sure in your mind you're thinking, oh, this is just a paperwork issue, right? You're just thinking like, well, we just need to get someone needs to have the right papers that we need to give them. And your brother has to tell you, like, no, there are no correct papers.

0:07:07 Azul: And yeah, yeah, and the thing is like were like, well, didn't you ask? And I'm like, how many times have you asked your parents about your status? Like how did – Like, know, it's a question that I got a lot. I it in court by the Department of Homeland Security attorneys who were like, "Well, didn't you know?" And I'm like, there's so many types of visas. How was I supposed to know? You no, after-school special on how to tell your child they are undocumented.

0:07:21 Thomas: Yeah. Come on.

0:07:40 Thomas: Yeah.

0:07:41 Azul: You know, um, there should be like after-school specialist, still thing like.

0:07:45 Matt: Sadly, no.

0:07:41 Thomas: Yeah. I hope this isn't coming on too strong, but I think it's a racist thing to think that you should have known you didn't belong here in some way and known to ask, like, why? Why would you know that? You're a kid. You're an American. You've grown up in America. Why would that be? Why would it have any sense that you were undocumented? I think that's insane.

0:08:00 Azul: It, it was an expectation, you know, and here I thought, like, biggest problem in life was that as, as a 20 year old, I still liked Hanson. No, no, it was my documented status.

0:08:12 Matt: I've heard this story so many times, though. I will say it's not just your parents. I have heard of so many young people, especially DACA recipients, that were never told and had to find out when they went to apply for a driver's license because they didn't have a social. So it's, it's unusual, it's unfortunately.

0:08:16 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to make very clear earlier. I was saying, I was surprised that her mom didn't tell her at that point. I get why your mom didn'T tell you or why people DIDN'T tell ya, you that actually makes sense. Perfect It's once just that you were in custody, I WAS just surprised that that, THAT wasn't a time to tell you, but that was, that was all I was SAYING earlier.

0:08:36 Azul: She's just, she's a silly, goofy lady. And

0:08:41 Thomas: That's all. Also it sounds like you had a second to sing you happy birthday and then got hung up on. So, I mean, that also could just have been what it was, right?

0:08:48 Azul: I know, it's interesting because in my head, I'm like, oh, there were so many clues about it. But at the same time, it is like, like, I didn't even know what question to ask. I So didn'T know that, like, had to be asked. And I understood what the general plan had been. And you know, if I maybe had stuck to the plan, like can'T imagine I would have been much happier because, oh, like in my 20s. No offense No, to anybody who did it. I'm sure you guys are doing okay and loving life.

0:08:59 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:09:19 Thomas: No offense to the entire state of Utah that you lived in, but yeah. What did you feel after that conversation? Do you have any kind memories of it?

0:09:28 Azul: Remember feeling like, like, extremely hopeless because I just, I already felt so out of control of my own life and I felt even less in control. Like, I felt trapped, you because it was like, oh, it was just a matter of time. Like, would have had to be perfect up to this point. And, you know, we talk about, like, assimilation. Want immigrants that are fully assimilated, right? That have really bought into, like, American culture, but, you know, for a girl of a certain age, It really bothered by the idea that I was gonna have to get married really young. Like, I was trying to do it for sure, but I was just like, I haven't figured things out. What if I, you know, I want to travel, I want to do this. And I felt a lot of guilt about wanting these things, but it's like, like, that is part of American assimilation, you

0:10:19 Matt: Ironically enough, that would have been, I'm sure somebody told you at some point, but that would've been the one way you probably could have stayed to get married. Get

0:10:24 Azul: Yeah, no. I mean my immigration attorney, he was very gung -ho about me getting married. But I for me there was this discomfort because I had, these you religious ideas about marriage and also had these cultural ideas about marriage. And at the time and still to this day, this idea of having my status tied to a person gives me a lot of anxiety. And that's the time it did too. Just want freedom. I want freedom to move back and forth. That's what I want. But even wanting something so simple is so complicated. It's like impossible in a lot of ways.

0:11:01 Thomas: Have gone, Matt, if she, like, let' s say Azul continues to not know, pretend this didn't happen. You continue to not now you' re undocumented. And then, let's say you did go, to do what kind of your mom sounds like she planned, which is you meet someone, you want to get married. Does that work if Azul doesn' t now she' s undocumented? Undocumented, you there a lot of some hoops you have to jump through, to you prove you're not getting married for the visa or whatever it is, you

0:11:25 Matt: I assume at that point, your mother would have sat you down and said, look, now that you have a marriage certificate, right? I assume that was probably the plan. Let's get a lawyer and get this done.

0:11:28 Azul: Yeah.

0:11:32 Thomas: What about when you go to get the marriage certificate?

0:11:34 Matt: Factor. Don't have to prove your status to get marriage. Say that just so everybody understands, because Azul came over on that border crossing card on the tourist visa, she's still eligible to adjust status to residency because she had a lawful entry, even though it was whatever period of time 20 years ago before that or whatever, even though she overstayed. So you have special rights when you were admitted and inspected, but if she'd come across the border with her mother, then she wouldn't have had those rights at all, and it would have been a much more complicated process. It's an important distinction.

0:11:59 Thomas: Oh, okay. Because interesting. So even though I of a better word. It does sound like you are kind of violating what you said you were here for, but still would have had some more kind rights, I guess, because of that rather than crossing illegally without any of that.

0:12:05 Azul: Yeah, yeah.

0:12:08 Matt: Rights, yeah, right. But in the case of marriage, because we do want to make sure people can be together, at least people who came that way, one of the few exceptions to having overstayed for that period is you can get married, yeah.

0:12:15 Thomas: Okay. Okay. Gotcha. During that process, like, I assume, okay, you get married and then you have to go like apply you for, and then what, there kind of a grilling during that process you

0:12:29 Matt: Expect? Yeah. Well, especially so if she'd gotten married after she was placed in deportation proceedings, it's much more of a grilling. By law, they have to treat it like fraud, which makes sense, because you just got married after you were told you're going to be deported. Um, I've had plenty of people get through it, and it ends up a lot of people, you know, maybe you've been together for 10 years anyway, and you realize now's the time. It happens all the time. So let's, let's actually talk about, if you don't mind, your lawyers. Um, so you must have known when you were released that you're gonna have to go back to immigration court. It? Would somebody tell you that?

0:12:30 Thomas: Oh.

0:12:51 Azul: Yeah, they told me I, I was going to get a notice to appear in six months, and Got my notice in six months. Time. Criminal case at this point is dismissed because I pled a in a base.

0:12:56 Matt: Sure.

0:13:04 Thomas: Oh. Yeah. How Did that Work

0:13:04 Matt: Yeah, let's talk about that for a second. So this is a really important concept. And every state has some version of this. And I looked into Utah's just to be sure it matched what I thought. In Massachusetts, we call it a continuance without a finding, but it's a plea and abeyance in Utah. And there's kind of an unfortunate thing about this. And I want to ask you a couple questions about this in a second, and there's a lot I've never asked you about this, so this is good time to talk about it.

The idea of this kind of deferred action in a case is that you can enter a guilty plea, you can have 11 or 12 months of probation or whatever, and then if everything stays good, then the case is dismissed, and you can honestly say in the future you don't have to check the box that says you've been convicted of a crime, even though you entered a guilty plea.

So the purpose of this, of course, is to have diversionary pleas so that people don't have to have criminal records for the rest of their lives. It's a good goal, and every state has some version of this, as I understand it. Congress got wind of this in 1996, and they realized that people were not getting deported who should have been deported in their eyes because they were taking these diversionary pleas.

So, Congress changed the law to make it so that any time you plead guilty, even if it is later dismissed as part of a diversionary agreement, sticks with you. So it's the only place where it still is actually still

0:13:05 Thomas: Yeah, oh.

0:14:08 Matt: A guilty plea.

0:14:08 Thomas: My Gosh. So that thing, that plea, is that disconnected from immigration? That's just something that like, and is it up to like a, a what, prosecutor to be like, like, hey, this isn't serious enough to where, you know, they're making a judgment call to offer you that.

0:14:21 Matt: Yeah, Yeah, it's very common on a first defense, because it's a big deal to give somebody a criminal record.

0:14:24 Thomas: Okay. Gotcha.

0:14:25 Matt: So maybe you look at the situation, they might have actually realized the reality of Azul's situation, that she was overwhelmed and that this wasn't totally her fault, and that's the deal they offer. Now, if you or I got that deal, Thomas, that's a great deal, because we get to go the rest of our lives saying we didn't have a criminal recorded. But for someone born in Mexico who doesn't have any lawful status in the United States, that is not a good deal. And I guess my question for you, Azul, is what did your attorney tell you about immigration before you took that plea?

0:14:36 Thomas: Yeah.

0:14:49 Azul: Didn't know. This is like I'm learning in real time because didn't know. Like, how that went down because I was like, I need an immigration attorney. He knew somebody in Salt Lake. I was still in Cedar. So he connected me over to the attorney in Salt Lake. But attorney in Salt lake was or Provo or whatever. They were just, like, yeah, just get us this over. But nobody had that conversation with me, not one person. And as it was, like my attorney, I've had conversations with Matt about my immigration attorney. He was just like, don't worry, just get your MRS degree, which is like, you know, getting married. It's what they say the girls go to Utah to do all the time. And I

0:14:50 Matt: He didn't know. Wow. Wow. That's bad. Wow.

0:14:53 Thomas: Didn't know what in Yeah,

0:15:32 Azul: Was just, like, but I don't want that. He literally said that to me so many times. Sometimes

0:15:37 Thomas: That's advice. Mormon Well,

0:15:35 Matt: Wow. That's Not legal advice. That's Wow. Mean it's literally the only way that you could have gotten out of this, I think. But

0:15:44 Thomas: I was going to say, like, it sounds like not only that, it's also that would be the most like assimilating thing you can do is like, yeah, all the other 20 -year -old Mormons are trying to get married, you know, I fit in, I guess.

0:15:53 Matt: Yeah. Just Blend in. Yeah.

0:15:55 Thomas: Yeah. But are you saying, I just want to make sure I understand, is it that the criminal attorney didn't know about the immigration stuff? Is that what it was? Or

0:15:56 Matt: Yeah. Uh,

0:16:03 Azul: Like something I see at work now all the time is criminal attorneys will reach out, um, they have a client they're representing and that client will eventually want to get citizenship, want to getting a job, and then get residency, so there's a consultation because it works differently, um, immigration than does in a regular court of law. So much of what attorneys do is try, sort of like breaking into a safety box, right? Trying to find what the exact situation is with you, they can apply pressure and what part of your story they can possibly go with to get you the most benefits possible.

0:16:44 Matt: Good summer of my job actually.

0:16:44 Azul: Yeah, and it's a series of questions because people are like, oh, I've been here X amount of time. You do something? And suddenly you will hear them go through every question possible. What your situation with this? How is this going? Like country did you come from? How old are you? And it like, oh, standard questions, it's on how each one is answered is, you much material you're giving them to work with, how exactly they're going to work that combination to actually get into the vault.

Don't really understand this about immigration attorneys. I mean, mean, I don't know that I understood it as well until I started working for one, or three. And not only that, but they have to do that with a security code that changes every 30 seconds, right? Immigration laws are always changing. It depends on who's in office. It somebody in the office, won't say his name, but I love him so much. And he will put in the group chat, like new developments in ice.

Do I understand what they mean half of the time? No, but I still love it. Constant, like it's consistent changes and example, this year, there was one time where we're trying to get things in for a deadline. I mean, everybody was just insane. It was like so metal. You know, everybody was working and working, working. And two hours before the deadline, USCIS puts out this notice that they've extended the deadline line for another year yeah

0:18:11 Thomas: A year? Oh wow.

0:18:11 Matt: That's right. Not good times. That's why I was asking, though, is because it used to be, especially around the time when you were going through all of this, criminal attorneys were not well -versed in immigration stuff, and they were not properly advising people. It happened all the time. And the really deadly thing is that, and this happened in Massachusetts, I'm sure it happened in Utah, they would say, well, take this diversionary plea because that's not a conviction, because it isn't a conviction for the state. But they don't know that it's going to be a conviction and it's going to completely screw you for federal purposes. It's a huge issue. That's why I was asking, because

0:18:15 Azul: Yeah yeah they

0:18:39 Thomas: I see. So from the immigration standpoint in her case, Okay, like Matt, if you were able to be plopped down in whatever year this was and kind of defend Azul here, you would say, well, no, you can't do that. You have to actually fight this charge.

0:18:48 Matt: Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. Or get a lesser charge. Yeah, find some way through. Because I was looking at the statute that you were charged under, and I think you might've had a trial. I don't know if you ever talked to your attorney about going to trial, but certainly there's an exception in the statute for if you're doing childcare and things go wrong.

0:18:52 Thomas: Yeah, okay. Wow.

0:19:04 Thomas: Means that family specifically just wanted to charge you with something? Mean the kid or the family had to press charges? How does that work? Okay.

0:19:11 Matt: Exactly.

0:19:12 Azul: Saw the family after the fact. Here's the other thing that was hellish about the way I experienced immigration court. Went through three years where I had a hearing every three months. Um, I couldn't do anything because, uh, those three months I could get, um, orders. I just felt like my life was frozen. I couldn'T do anything. My attorneys were like, please get married. Um, I was like, I don'T know about that. That. One point where the attorney pulled my attorney to the side and he was like, hey, I know this new thing got passed. Can you explain it to me? And I was like you little shit. My tax dollars are paying for you to ask my attorney who I'm also having to pay. Hey, sorry Yeah. I be some level of hell. This is the bad place. Like, would get grilled all the time by the DHS attorney about what I knew didn't know. And of course, it was like really Mormon judges who were like, Like, oh, my goodness.

0:19:28 Thomas: Jeez. Yeah, yeah.

0:19:55 Thomas: Double build.

0:20:09 Thomas: Yeah they

0:20:10 Azul: Like, are you one, 23, 24, and not married? And also, how you do this at a babysitting job? And, like, what a failure at being a girl. And, you know, I wish them nothing but diarrhea.

0:20:27 Thomas: Drink coffee. They're not going going to get diarrhea. No.

0:20:28 Azul: But Um, it was hellish, like, every three months to go to court.

0:20:32 Thomas: Yeah. So You you started to say you saw the family and they did you get any answers about what happened or

0:20:33 Azul: Yeah. I I Saw Them After the fact, I was in an elevator with the mom and she was like, wow, that was so awkward, wasn't it. And I Was like What and Was, yeah Um, then she said her kid's name and she, she was like, they were spooked there. They had to go talk to the police. You really put, like, you know, you really scared them. But you know good thing all of that is behind us. And I just remember like I was trapped in an elevator with this woman and she was saying this to me and she

0:20:38 Thomas: Oh My god. What The What Wow. Yeah. Uh

0:21:04 Matt: Behind us. Wow.

0:21:09 Azul: Goes, but you know it's all in the past. No big deal. And, I kept thinking, no big deal, I have have to leave the country like

0:21:12 Thomas: -huh Yeah. Unreal. That's a moment where if they put it in a movie, I'd be like, you fucking Aaron Sorkin liberal, there's no, no way that happened. Like, actually, no, it did, actually believe it. Okay. Wow.

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0:22:53 Azul: Never seen them again. I sometimes hear about them because are still part of those circles. And some of my friends or some of the people that I've remained friends with will sort of run in those circles, and the thing that I have asked is, I don't want to hear about them. If they ask about me, I don't want know anything about me. I am constantly afraid that they will try to reach out to me in some way in case they ever experience any amount of guilt. I doubt that they would because they to have moved on with their lives and never have to think about me. And, you whereas my life was totally changed, and I have to Think about the consequences of that every day of my life. Sounded so dramatic. I'm so sorry.

0:23:22 Thomas: Yeah.

0:23:35 Thomas: No, no. Well, I like, come on, give yourself a break here. I mean, that's a significant thing. I we don't have to go too much into it, but But you wouldn't even want let's say one of the of the one kids someday realizes they sucked, but you don't want to. It's not worth like having that, you ever again. It's just kind of like you want to be done with them.

0:23:36 Matt: It's true.

0:23:53 Azul: Well, the thing is, like, not the first time I get that question, but to me, it would be like, well, who would that be for? Like, Like if they apologize, who would that be for? That would be for their guilt.

0:24:02 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. You don't have any responsibility to help them with their guilt. Yeah, for sure.

0:24:09 Azul: Yeah, Like I already have enough on my plate. Like I don't need to be adding anything else to

0:24:15 Thomas: I'm curious, though, Matt, what like, Do you think happened? Like, if this is all we the info have, she said that, like, wow, you spooked the kid, so the kid had to talk to the police. Like, what the hell, what do you think happened?

0:24:26 Matt: I mean, I can't speculate on that, but it just sounds like the parents went to the police. I mean, they decided the kid had bruises or whatever, and that was the thing they're supposed to do. I don't know. I don't ever understand it either, like you said, about the world that people in for things like this, But I do want to stop for a second, and just because I think listeners, listeners at this point might be wondering how this wonderful person that we've been talking to, who clearly, clearly had something, I might even say made a mistake, I mean, it was just a horrible situation that you were in, and was charged with a crime, how at the point at which they're in deportation proceedings, they could not be allowed to stay here. Because I think that most people would assume that you could just apply for residency at that point. And I just want to make the point very clearly, and certainly Azul knows this, that there's no option at that, that point.

0:24:30 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, mm -mm,

0:25:02 Azul: No.

0:25:03 Matt: For someone in removal proceedings who has no status. There's nothing they can apply for. There's no line for them to get in. And there's no sort of general good person visa, even if once the charge is cleared and left with no criminal record, which isn't what happened here, but even if it had happened, there's just no way to keep somebody in this country at that point. Someone, And someone who sounds, as you said, like they might've been born here. Not that that really should matter, but it certainly, I think, may be surprising to a lot lot of people to hear as we're having this conversation.

0:25:28 Thomas: What about, like DACA, does that, is that anything?

0:25:31 Matt: -DACA. This was before DACA. Yeah. Did your attorneys tell you besides getting married? Was there any other conversation?

0:25:31 Thomas: Oh, okay, and

0:25:35 Azul: That was it. It was all there was.

0:25:36 Matt: Yeah. That's That's all I would have been able to say too, honestly, at the time.

0:25:38 Azul: Yeah. DACA got approved, um, the Obama years, right? And

0:25:44 Thomas: I think it was like 12. Yeah, that was what I I don'T know why I started to offer a guess when Matt's here. That was the dumbest thing I've ever done in my life. Yeah. 2012. Good job. Thank you for that info. Like, honestly, the advice to get married was not the worst advice. That Was like, was the only thing you could really do, I guess.

0:25:45 Matt: 15th, 2012, Although

0:26:01 Azul: Yeah.

0:26:01 Thomas: Wow.

0:26:01 Azul: Yeah.

0:26:02 Matt: The way I always phrase it is, if there were to be somebody in your life that you already partnered with who you love very much, this would be the way that you can stay. I don't tell people, "Just go get married to a stranger, go on Tinder," you know? Not, I certainly understand where your attorneys were coming from, and at that point the only option you had was either to stay through a spouse or to voluntarily leave the country without a deportation.

0:26:07 Thomas: Got, yeah. Sure. Sure, mm -hmm.

0:26:19 Azul: Yeah.

0:26:20 Matt: That's

0:26:20 Thomas: So at this point, you've had the rough conversation you've months later, you get that nose to appear. That point, you've done the thing where you've pled in the way that I don't remember the wording for the criminal thing. At what point after that does the immigration part start to kick in and like that, those proceedings? Greetings.

0:26:36 Azul: So that kicks in after six months of me going to detention. Criminal case, I got, in abeyance. I get something that's called a bench warrant. I have to write a letter of apology to the family. I had to write an apology to my family. And I had a letter of, to avoid contact with them, which I was like, great. I please never want to see them again. And I had to go to anger management classes, which Um, was ended up being really funny in a way. Uh, I ended up going to a therapist, um, um, that he would be able to do that for court. And I remember I showed up like looking really formal and I, um, like listening, like, to him a lot.

And he was just like, "I'm really concerned that we're not going to be able to do the work that we need to do because all you're doing is just worrying that you're going to make a mistake around me." And he's just like, "I just need you to know that you're not angry. You're depressed." And I remember I even took like a page to him. And I was like, "No, but this is what the judge says." He was like, really appreciate that. Was so patient. Like a wonderful guy. But was also like, "You have PTSD." And And I was like, "I'm not a war veteran."

0:26:55 Thomas: Done and done. Yeah. Oh, my God.

0:27:53 Thomas: Is this person? Hold on. So sounds like you got a a cool therapist that was in charge of this part. Yeah, talk about that a little bit.

0:27:57 Azul: Yeah, yeah. So I had to do anger management. If there was like a court appointed class. And they're like, no, you have to find it and you have to report to the court. And I'm like, yeah, I don't know. And I said, I was, like, cool, cool.

0:28:08 Thomas: OK, hop on Yelp.

0:28:11 Azul: I started, like calling people. And was, sort like, of like, are why you looking for anger management classes? And I Was, like about that. Um, you know, because I sound like this over the phone. Like I just always, you know how people talk about resting bitch face. Oh, sorry. Resting dolphin sound face. Have like resting nice face. Like I'm always smiling.

0:28:27 Thomas: No, that's fine. I'll Tell you. Yeah, if I were on the other end of the phone for this, part I'd of me is a little excited to see when you get mad because I feel like it'll be a like a weird superhero thing where it's like, wow, she's this nice and then she like throws a car at someone, it must be, I mean that'd be kind of interesting.

0:28:33 Matt: True. Oops.

0:28:48 Thomas: No, it's total bullshit, we know it's a bullshit thing. You didn't need anger management, you're those people needed to learn how to be parents for one and to not rely you on like, say, um, labor, to put it mildly. Um, you get, so you were able able to go to like a cool therapist and like would sign the, the essentially, but they provided you like actual good therapy because that's awesome. Yeah.

0:29:04 Azul: I Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He because he was just like, look, I'll write the letter. He's but you're not angry. You're depressed. Also, you have PTSD, which I also argued with him about because I was like, I've never been to war. He opened his like diagnosis book, he and put it on my lap and he's like, I want you to read through the symptoms and you tell me when you're done. Okay. And I was was like, all right, and mean I took my time, I think I had every symptom except for one.

0:29:14 Thomas: Wow.

0:29:32 Thomas: What?

0:29:32 Azul: Or every like criteria except for once.

0:29:34 Thomas: You Remember any of those? I don't remember offhand what those would be.

0:29:34 Azul: Oh. Think. It's like insomnia, having like flashbacks, uh, extreme anxiety. I was very scared to, and this is something that I've also really worked on, like, for advocating myself can sometimes be difficult. Or if I don't get like a clear way on how to fix a mistake, get I a lot of anxiety because I'm like, hey, this is like an old thing that's being triggered. I just need to like bring it down. And sometimes people think I'm being intense about it.

And I want to be like, it's really not you, it's me. Like it's, it's really old baggage, he but worked on my PTSD. Like, I remember there was one session where he was like, let's give your jail experience a name. And I was like, Bob. And he's like, Bob is a jerk, you know? He's like what Bob put you through is not who you are. And I think it was like really helpful for me to hear. And it's something that I also think about a lot. Like I had a lot of support when I got out. I had this wonderful therapist who helped me out so much. Talk a lot about like, care now and, you know, a sense of worth. It is interesting to try to develop that or to try, like, navigate what your own internal voice says about that when you have like legal consequences and like, uh, verdicts that are shaping the reality of your life around it, um.

0:29:37 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:31:01 Thomas: Kidding, I mean, you have can it only imagine having a legal system with a full of a bunch of very very serious people telling you like, you're like, you're just, you don't, you know, you'd like, that must be horrible. That's all kinds of trauma. You've, the guy has signed off on, I love this, the Williams S character has given you good therapy, told you it's not your fault, signed off on the anger management stuff, it sounds like.

0:31:23 Azul: Yeah.

0:31:23 Thomas: That's that was just for the criminal thing. So what was kind of the first immigration proceeding, maybe if we haven't done that yet? How And did that go?

0:31:30 Azul: So I was still in Cedar but I had go over to Provo, which is like four hours away, for my hearing. And had been some misunderstanding in my office, I'm guessing, because my attorney didn't show up. Um, attorney, he was an interesting man, um say the least. Uh, DA was like, your attorney is just going to ask for a continuance anyway. Just said that to the judge and put in an interpreter for me, which, which, you know, I'd been like, hey, that's really not necessary, can English and Spanish. The interpreter turned to me, and I, the DA's name was Mindy, said, people always say Mindy's such a bitch, but look at what a nice thing she just did for you. And I just remember being like, what? What?

0:31:42 Matt: She

0:31:51 Thomas: Wow. OK.

0:32:15 Azul: Like, yeah.

0:32:17 Matt: Got you more immigration court.

0:32:18 Thomas: Yeah. Well, honestly, It does sound like that was a nice thing, but not when she puts it that way, you know, it's like when someone does a minor favor for you and then they're like, uh, do you mean thank you, you know, you're like, okay, well, now I don't appreciate it, like, what the hell, I, attorney didn't show up, so she was like, all right, here's what her attorney would have done, that's nice of her, I guess. Yeah.

0:32:18 Azul: Like I was just like Well.

0:32:38 Azul: And it was, it was entire time, like, this thing in my head, like, nice to be able to discuss it and to like be how insane it is because even in my brain I lived through it and I'm like, this cannot be real. Like Court was part of this little strip mall that was right next to a subway and like had a Wells Fargo. And I was just like, I'm going into the most mundane, like suburban spots to have my entire life determined by a lady who is bringing in a huge roll-on piece of luggage full of files. And

0:32:55 Thomas: Wow.

0:33:18 Thomas: At One point she motions for Quiznos, like she's like, uh, your honor, I've, I would ask you for a five minute recess for a foot long from Quiznos. And And she's like, hey, here, here. You come back. Everyone's got the wrappers going. All right, where were we? Everyone eating Quiznos.

0:33:25 Azul: Mean. I Mean, it was just weird, everything felt weird about it, like when the interpreter said that to me I was just like, what, I, I didn't know how to to respond half of the time because it was just like, how is this happening? Like, it

0:33:38 Thomas: Yeah.

0:33:48 Thomas: So you got a continuance. Is that what it was? So it's just kind of delaying and delaying. You know, what's what's happening at this point in the proceedings?

0:33:54 Azul: That's how it was for three years. They just delayed it, delayed it.

0:33:59 Thomas: Three years.

0:34:00 Azul: Delayed it.

0:34:00 Thomas: Did you go back to school?

0:34:02 Azul: Couldn't because I knew that it was every three months I was going in for another delay.

0:34:08 Thomas: To possibly be deported at that time? It's, like, Princess Pride. It's like, good night, good work, most likely deport you in the morning, like, for three years. To not know what's going to happen, major, major life thing for three years.

0:34:10 Azul: Yeah. To possibly

0:34:23 Matt: Immigration court, it can go a lot longer than that, a lot longer. But

0:34:27 Azul: Yeah.

0:34:25 Thomas: Jeez. How How did you handle that, Azul?

0:34:28 Azul: Yeah. Well. Mean, I didn't like become an alcoholic, unfortunately. And that would have been the worst time to decide on that habit because Utah is notoriously bad, like in terms of like being able to get booze. So,

0:34:41 Thomas: Yeah. I remember we were college kids trying to get alcohol and it was like, you can't get it anywhere or it's closed on Sunday or whatever. And also it's half the alcohol, but then the altitude made up for it. So it was all right. Yeah. Got pretty hammered.

0:34:48 Azul: Yep. You. You win some, you lose some, I think. Um, uh,

0:35:02 Thomas: What did you do? I mean, you say you couldn't go back to school. You

0:35:05 Azul: Couldn't Go back to school. I I sort of like a bit of a social circle, and here's the thing, three months time is not an unrealistic time for Mormons to get married. It's it's just not, like, there Were, there are people, people who will meet, get engaged and marry all within a semester there. That's perfectly normal. And tried very hard. Got sort engaged to a boy. It went really badly. Broke up, thank goodness. My mom was like, you could marry marry him. And I was like, he threatened to murder me. The best. Hard to be married to somebody who might kill you. You know, what do I know? I've never been married.

0:35:17 Thomas: That's fair.

0:35:50 Thomas: Just question. If you get married, immigration then you get do the whole residency thing. What happens if you divorce? Course.

0:35:57 Matt: If you can explain why you got divorced, and if you if you got divorce because your husband threatened to kill you, that you're going to be fine, we can we can work with that. There's There's the Violence Against Women Act, protects you to show some evidence that people around you knew this was happening and you've got counseling or whatever, but no, if you get married, it doesn't work out like a lot of American marriages, you still go through the rest of the immigration process if you concede, show that it just didn't work out for the right reasons. Obviously, if you move out the day you get your green card and never see the person again, then that's not going to work too well.

0:36:03 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:25 Matt: So at some point, you were pushed to the decision that you were either going to have to be deported or you're going to leave voluntarily.

0:36:29 Azul: Yeah. Chose voluntary departure, mainly because I felt like it gave me a little little more wiggle room to do things as much on my terms as I could.

0:36:40 Matt: The right thing.

0:36:41 Thomas: I totally understand that decision. Rather than like, hey, every three months be subject to another hearing where I don't know what's going to happen. How about just get this over with?

0:36:51 Azul: The waiting, you know, it felt like torture having to do it over. And, right before court, I would just remember feeling so much dread, because you again,

0:37:02 Thomas: I bet. Like, I got to eat Quiznos again. I'm sick of Quiznos. I get it. Totally. Get that punch card going though.

0:37:06 Azul: Yeah. Well, and the thing is, too, but,

0:37:12 Thomas: Immigration court and Quiznos punch card. Hey, 10th appearance, you get a free soda.

0:37:19 Azul: Like to to think that the law is, you're not subject to people's like whims and moods. Depending on what mood, how much sleep the DA had had gotten the next day, like sometimes those hearings felt like, having my nails taken off by pliers because they were just in a bad mood and they were going at it against everyone.

0:37:29 Thomas: Yeah.

0:37:41 Thomas: Someone woke up on the wrong side of the court this morning, you know,

0:37:42 Azul: Yeah, Yeah. And, or they would change judges. And the last judge that I got, he was known for being a family man and, um, very pro family, pro children. And so my, charge charge on top of the fact that that I was my age and unmarried was a like one of those things where he was like, oh, of course this makes sense because this is a terrible person. And then I got 90 days to leave.

0:38:11 Thomas: You, oh, you got 90. Oh. Okay. So that's, wait, is that the voluntary thing or how does that interact with, I thought you were saying you just kind of volunteered to go or how, sorry, I don't know how that works.

0:38:21 Azul: Voluntary departure, I had, I had a show like flight ticket back to Mexico as well as my, um, port, I believe. I had to sign a couple of papers saying that I was, you relinquishing. I had a certain amount of time to show up at the U.S. consulate in wherever in Mexico to show that I had arrived. So I think my deadline was September 9th, um, 2009. when I went to assigned, show the papers, you because the judge asked me, like, do you have a house? Do you have children? Do You have any property? And I was like, no, no. And he was like, fine, 90 days.

0:38:57 Thomas: What changed that you, gone through three years of, I guess it's what's just continuance, continuance continuance what then you get this judge that's like kind of a dick and then you get essentially ordered to leave, is that what happened? Yeah.

0:39:08 Azul: Basically.

0:39:09 Matt: It's going to have to happen sometime in this process. I mean, it has to come to a head. And I'm actually surprised they gave you as much time as they did those three years. But voluntary departure, just for context, is considered to be a privilege. That's considered to be a big deal that you have to apply for it. You have to show that you're worthy of the ability to self-deport, basically. That s what this is. It's a self-deportation. And again, not at government expense because otherwise they'd have to put you on a plane and pay for it, they don't want to be doing that.

0:39:11 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:39:11 Azul: Yeah. Yeah Yeah,

0:39:32 Thomas: I See, I that's just the literal leaving of the country, that's not like before the court has said, I don't get to stay here, I will go ahead and agree, I don't get to. The court says you don't get to stay here, but are you going out, you by literally the government, or are you yourself leaving? That's what that is. Oh, huh.

0:39:50 Matt: And if Were to leave the country before the judge allows you to leave, you would get an automatic order of deportation in absentia, basically, and retroactively, so that could be a problem for coming back, you don't want to have that order on your record, so this, it is honestly, if you have no other options and you're prepared to leave, it is the thing that you should do so that you don't end up with a removal order.

0:40:07 Thomas: Okay.

0:40:08 Matt: But it is self-deportation, that is really what it comes down to, that's what Mitt was talking about, so was it like getting back, or I shouldn't say getting back because you really had not that much memory of Mexico at this point, right?

0:40:09 Thomas: Gotcha. No,

0:40:19 Azul: Yeah, no, I didn't. I packed dumb shit. Oh, sorry. Um, I packed like dumb things.

0:40:24 Thomas: Shit's fine. Don't worry. Yeah.

0:40:27 Azul: Um, I just wasn't too sure of what was going on. I remember I looked a lot for like books that maybe might explain what was happening to me. And all I could find were like expat things, and I was like, well, I'm sort of like an expat, right? Um,

0:40:22 Matt: Seen

0:40:35 Thomas: Yeah, what was your vision of how your life would go at this point? I mean, I just can't imagine, How you did you think of this whole thing? You know?

0:40:49 Azul: Don't know that I had any specific vision because basically I, I couldn't make sense of like life might be like or what I was just like, maybe I can try and survive because it just like a long time, time, it afterwards. After coming back, it felt like well, there's no point to making plans, there's no reason to make plans, there a common deportee experience where they just don't decorate, just come back. And for one, you have to like adjust to a of cultural differences. So for example, the States, whenever you say where you're from, always where you spent the majority of your life.

But over here, when people ask you where you're from, it's always where you were born. You that people know that you are from a place or that you are one of us type of a thing is through all these like micro interactions, the way you describe things, the slang you use, your accent.

A friend recently point out to me that the thing that always makes everybody's ears perk up about me is I have a perfect Spanish accent, but the rhythm of my Spanish is like English, and he's just like, that's why people always ask you where you're from, because your rhythm is like the rhythm that you have when you're speaking in English, your language is perfect, your accent is perfect, it's just you don't, you speak in the same rhythm in both languages, and that's an American thing, and

0:40:58 Thomas: Yeah.

0:42:28 Thomas: I was going to say this, when you said about the interpreter, you speak Spanish, but like Matt, plenty you of people in this situation don't even speak the language of the place that this country says they need to go back to, because they belong there. Right.

0:42:40 Matt: It many times, yeah, no. It's, it's got to to make it so much harder.

0:42:41 Azul: Um.

0:42:43 Thomas: Like, here, we got you an interpreter and there are plenty of people are like, for what? I only speak English like that. Like it could literally be right. I So did forget, did you, you have a lot of family there, or, also I want to ask, what might be a really dumb question, do you get to decide where you're getting deported to? Well,

0:42:50 Matt: All the time.

0:42:59 Azul: My case, I did. So didn't want to come back to, uh, originally, because I was just like, that's gonna be too much. Um, went to Hermosillo, to Sonora, which is a border state. Um, I did, I think, my first year there. And I presented to the US consulate, them my driver's license and all the other paperwork. They kept everything. I think they gave me my license back. No, he gave me MyLicense back. I lost it at some point, but he gave MeLicens back. And he said to me, I just want you to know that you can't use this to go back. So I was like, thank you. Glad that I did it that way because I ended up, of course, suffering from very long-term depression from all of this. And, um, there was like language around, um, undocumented youth, like taking shape and form as I had to leave the States. And so it became this really strong dissonance, like thing this that I was trying to sort of harmonize in my head because it wasn't making sense.

Like I hearing about undocumented people and it sort of like cracking my skull, like my brain in a lot of ways, because it was like you are saying that the thing that you don't want to become is me. Like, are talking about me like I am dead and I'm still here. All I wanted, like, I've wanted out of all of this was some right to myself, which I don't, like I've had to fight tooth and nail for it.

But sort of want my sense of self to come from me, right? Not from something that the government can give or take away from me. But at the same time, I have these really complicated emotions around immigration and around the conversation around it because, you know, I see what it looks like from, you you know, being deported essentially. And always think that I want to go back and live in the States.

And like, I tried to explain to them psychologically, I don't think I could ever do that. Like it, my deportation process scarred me so much that I like I'm pretty sure that whenever I step foot in the US again, I'm going to have a panic attack.

0:43:37 Thomas: Can You talk about your, your life, so 2009, you've, you're You're in Mexico, what do you do, like, do you put that, because I could also imagine a feeling of, it's just me trying to imagine what this is like, but I can imagine feeling like you literally never have a home, 'cause like, it's not like that was your home, you know? Like, and now you're told that what you thought was your house, never gets to be your home again, really. So like, you just don't ever get to have a home again.

0:45:18 Azul: Yeah, Yeah.

0:45:39 Azul: Yeah? No, yeah, that thing that you said. That's it. That is exactly it. I part of being an adult, is right, you have to set roots somewhere. But what ends up happening to a lot of us, and like I said, I've seen this, With right? Other people, like, didn't I put in my Christmas tree until I was here for 10 years. A mattress on the floor for years and years because I was like, why should I even buy like a bed base? And you know, these are things that people look at and they're like, dude, what, like, what the hell, like be an adult. And you're just like, okay, but if being an adult is stability and you don't even know how you can give that to yourself. And I don't even mean economically, like I've been doing like virtual work. I've been really lucky in a lot of ways. Like, now, I, job is pretty awesome.

Also have like, it, I need a mental day or whatever, like everybody's so understanding about it. And people Matt also knows part of my story, and I guess now more, more of my story. I have no complaints there. And, you make more than people do here. So I'm able to visit different parts of the country.

But the complaint that I get most often is like, I've been here for 15 years, and I'm considering buying a couch, and these things because it's just like, okay, I'm gonna do this thing, and I have to run through my head like, well, I can't get deported again, okay, good, good, good, um, I, it can burn in a fire, how would I handle losing, losing my things again. Other thing too, that ends up happening.

And the reason why I mentioned, you know, I'm so thankful for like the people, like affected obviously my family, my friends, but they've done just Herculean things to always make me feel included, make me feeling loved. But it, it, see the gaps of where, where things are, right? Been zoomed in to countless weddings, it's always bittersweet, because, wow, sorry, had a nephew die while I was here. And I couldn't go to his funeral.

And there's something thing really funny about being like zoomed into a funeral, like my niece was, I think, nine years old at the time, and you could see that there were like all these white people who were like, what in the fuck, because it's so gosh, you know, to have like somebody zoomed in, like sitting in their living, living room, being zoomed into this funeral, this kid's funeral. And my niece would explain it so calmly, she would be like, she's my aunt, she can't be here.

And nieces and nephews have grown with this understanding that I think hurts more sometimes than my own experience, because it's just like, man, you're a kid, I don't want you to know this, I don't want you to understand this. You know, like, it's just like these babies that you love so much. Niece, she turns 18 this year, she was three when I left.

I loved her, when I left my family, like I sat them all down and I was like, she does not understand what's going on, I don't want anybody crying because I don't want you guys to scare her.

And looked very confused because she was saying bye to me, but everybody looked sad, she, you know, my brother brings the kids every year, and I take that time off, and it's been weddings, it's been funerals, it's Ben birthday celebrations, it's Christmas and and New Year's, and people, sort of makes life weird because you sort of feel torn, like, I don't want to go back to the states to live, I don't know how I would handle that, um, haven't worn shoes or pants, uh, continuously for years now, and I think that would just be so bad, um, I don't know, that's just me personally speaking.

Every time we have a zoom meeting at at the office, everybody's in sweaters, and I'm in a tank top. And I'm like, I love this life. For me, same time, I'm just like, a lot of times I wonder, like, am I a real adult? Because I don't feel like I've done all these things that you're supposed to do to become an adult. I did buy an air fryer recently, though. So I'm very excited about that. We'll

0:46:04 Thomas: Jeez.

0:49:54 Matt: Congrats.

0:49:55 Azul: See about the couch, uh,

0:49:57 Thomas: Don't know if anyone's ever told you this, but do you think you have PTSD? See where that therapist was, was getting that idea. Yeah.

0:50:06 Matt: That actually, I wanted to ask you, and we've talked around this before, and if you don't mind just answering or talking about this, and it's okay if you do, but a back we had a conversation about having you be my liaison for detained cases, which you are, and you're amazing at it because you have such an understanding of what these families are going through in basically, as my right hand, one of the most important things that can happen in the office is just keeping a good communication with our clients. It's so important, and Azul is amazing at it. And the level of attention and care and compassion that's required to be a liaison to the detained families, the people that don't know what's going to happen from day to day for their loved ones in custody.

And I remember we had this conversation, and I told you, I know you have to have PTSD around this entire subject. You don't have to do this. And I will say that again to you, that you really don't. But I just would like to know, if you don't mind talking about it, what that means to you and and how it feels to be doing that kind of work.

0:50:22 Thomas: You tell us what that means? Like what's a, what's a liaison?

0:50:59 Azul: Man, it is so special to me, I know, I know it sounds maybe like trite, but, like, we've had cases but

0:51:00 Matt: Really,

0:51:07 Thomas: Can you give yourself a break? Please allow yourself to acknowledge that you've had a really harsh experience. You can have emotions and like express them about it. It's totally okay.

0:51:12 Matt: Come on.

0:51:17 Azul: What if I start sweating, um, but

0:51:20 Thomas: No, that's not okay. Now that's True, you Can't do that, yeah,

0:51:22 Matt: Yeah, no.

0:51:23 Azul: Um, it's so special to me, uh, I, so sucky to be in that situation, and you feel like it's the end of the world for you, and like nobody gets it. And the thing is, like, easy to get frustrated and to get upset because you, you feel like your world is ending, and nobody understands that your world does ending. But you know, from where I stand, I can see, Hey, I know you need to talk to somebody. So talk to me. And let the person who knows the law, like, what I need them to be doing, sounds bossy, but whatever, it's fine.

0:51:47 Thomas: Yeah, Sounds so valuable to To really Everyone Involved, honestly, wow.

0:52:01 Matt: It is, it is. Yeah, and I feel bad putting you in that position so often, knowing the personal experience that you have, but it's so meaningful for you, I can tell, and the interactions that you're having. At the same time, it

0:52:12 Azul: No, no, I, there have been so many times, like there, time that, you Nicole's also really good about this with me, like whenever a client gets asylum and And it's something that I've worked on and she lets me give those good news. It is like crack. It is drugs. It is. I'm like, this is drugs, this is, this love this. Like it's, it's a rush because, you know, with immigration, it is like two steps forward and then like three steps back or one step sideways. And but, you know. There have been so many many times when it's just like everybody is all hands on deck about something. And you know everybody's worn out and everybody's stressed out and there's always a fire to put out. But like one good thing happens and you're just like, man, I know what that means for you and I'm so fucking happy that it happened to you. Like

0:52:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:52:28 Matt: Was

0:52:42 Thomas: Steps forward, three Quizno sandwiches back. I get it. Yes, yeah.

0:53:10 Thomas: Meanwhile,

0:53:10 Azul: I love that for you. I want that for você so badly. It's so easy to be like, oh, well, this person did this, this person Did that, or, you just like, man, I, have a politics, I feel like that's foundationally from a place of compassion. And that's what I want. That's what I worked for. Been so many times. Recently, there was somebody that was in in detention.

And when he got out, oh, it was, can I tell you how it was like, washing your hair after not washing it for two weeks, like times 100. It was so great. And, you especially felt for him because he had a situation where it was not his biological mother who went to bat for him. And they were just going to bat until I spoke to this lady probably once a day, or I emailed her.

And sometimes it would just be like, hey, I know that it might not feel like things are moving at the pace that you'd like, but we so aware of what's going on. Don't worry. And I know that's easier said than done as well. But like on your side we are on your team and like we're all working towards this and when her kid got out it was the best it was such

0:54:28 Matt: A good day. Yeah. It was a Friday, too. Can't beat that. Yeah, yeah. But

0:54:32 Azul: A good day to

0:54:33 Thomas: I'm probably messaging Matt, hey, hey, what are we doing on Opening Arguments today? Come on, this is important, man. I don't know how you're, you're not, not for nothing, somehow you're also doing this podcast while doing this work. I know how you do it all, Matt.

0:54:45 Matt: Is relaxing, I'm having a good time doing this. I mean, and I have a good time at work too, but as You can hear it's very different and I have a Great time because I have people like Azul around who can keep me grounded, and I will say every single person in our office is amazing. Um, it's not just her, we have so many great people working with us, and that we couldn't do it without you, and without Jennifer and Fathom and everybody else, you know, that

0:54:49 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:55:04 Azul: We really have, like, I mean, I'm not just saying this because, like, I really like my co-workers, but it's just a really good, good setup, that's a really good setup. Oh,

0:55:12 Thomas: That happen? To You maybe get to like the, the more kind of happier ending of the story or maybe not an ending, but I to to admit that, Matt, when you mentioned this, I just assumed that you were Azul's lawyer originally. I didn't know that, like, how did you guys end up connected?

0:55:27 Matt: So Azul found me on Twitter, and I think you DM'd me, and we were talking about something or other that I tweeted about, I think, and you told me that you do virtual assistant work, and I'd never considered it before. And, you know, we got to talking, I really liked talking to her, and I got a really good sense of who she was. And then I invited her to speak to my class, my immigration policy class, and it was the first time that we'd actually interacted that way. And I just loved the way she was with my students, and how natural she was, and I could really see her helping us in the office. And dann we had an unexpected, and I called her up, and we got it going. Just so, so fortunate. I mean, listening is probably, anyone listening who's in a position to need a virtual assistant is probably thinking they want an Azul, and you do, but you can't have her. I'm sorry.

0:56:10 Thomas: I was going to say, say like When, yeah, Virtual Assistant is of an understatement, like, that's, that's The Understateman Of a lifetime, I Got This virtual assistant, it's like the most amazing person to work in this job that could possibly be there, and

0:56:11 Matt: I will fight you. No, it's way more than that. Way more than That. No.

0:56:25 Matt: She's incredible, and I can't say enough good things. And I would say that even if she weren't here.

0:56:29 Thomas: He absolutely has, by the way, Like Sure, like This is Matt Has been excited to do this for a long time, that, like, literally day one, um, has wanted to to to do this interview.

0:56:30 Matt: Yeah, that's true. The way you are, you want to share people that you love. Go

0:56:41 Azul: He's Was Telling me, but I was like, I think last week I was in Mexico, in the Mexico City airport, and he's like, let's wait till you're home, and I was like, no, no, it's a big airport, he's like, no, let's wait till your home because sound issues, and I was like, oh, that's Right But

0:56:55 Matt: I was trying to imagine Thomas reacting to you doing this in an airport.

0:56:59 Azul: Iwas fun thing about The Office is anytime I have a question or like I want to try my – I like wanna be like, ooh, I wanna learn about this. They are such good sports about it and that's also a lot of fun.

0:57:12 Thomas: Well, that's amazing. Is there anything else? Matt, I was there anything we didn't get to?

0:57:16 Matt: No, I mean, I know this has been really important to get through this story, and I really appreciate Nizil so much opening up like this. And I mean we've talked about a lot of this, but just to have you come in and share this way and really show people who you are, I m really excited To be able to do this. I did want to say that I think just to close this, as lawyer, I think I just have to step in here for a second and say people might be wondering what the future consequences are. And the fact is, because as well accepted voluntary departure, she has the right to come back in the future if she has a way to do that.

And enough time has passed that she could apply for a waiver to get around the criminal offense if that's still an issue. And I went through your file and I'm honestly, I need to see a little more. Your attorney at some point or some attorney filed a post-conviction motion, which I'm not sure to be honest, meets the standard for a post-conviction motion. I guess I should tell you that.

So, you may or may not still have a conviction that immigration will recognize, it's a little dodgy, can talk about it another time. But worst case, you still have that on your record for immigration purposes, you're now eligible for a rehabilitation waiver because it's been more than 15 years, getting on more than 15 years since the commission of the offense. It is now, it's definitely more than.

So she would have the the right to come back through an employment visa or through a family member if she wanted to do that. But I think I remember you telling me there was really only one reason you really wanted to come back to the United States.

0:57:28 Thomas: Absolutely.

0:58:26 Thomas: Quiznos, baby.

0:58:27 Matt: No, it's better than that, actually. Was to see Beyonce, wasn't it?

0:58:31 Azul: My goodness. Yes. Yes. I

0:58:33 Thomas: Okay, I thought it was going to be like your niece, but yeah, no, Beyonce, I get it.

0:58:35 Matt: No.

0:58:36 Azul: Mean, can see my friends and family. Sure. Beyonce. I have not been to any Beyonce concert ever. I would like that. Also, Also, I know this might get me canceled. I miss Taco Bell. I

0:58:37 Matt: Yeah. Oh,

0:58:51 Thomas: Love Taco Bell. Okay, here we go, it's the best, it's the best. I don't know about you, but Matt and I recently, I, both vegetarian, live off a Taco Bell, I, of Black Bean Contract Supreme, you know, three four times a week, not even joking, so good.

0:59:03 Matt: Same, same. I love him. That is not what I expected you to say, Azul. I really did. Sitting in the Yucatan.

0:59:10 Thomas: If only we could zoom

0:59:12 Matt: Who

0:59:12 Thomas: Call you some Taco Bell or something. I don't know. Oh, it's

0:59:15 Azul: Have not had, like, Taco Bell in 15 years.

0:59:20 Thomas: Probably outlawed where you are, huh?

0:59:22 Azul: Yeah, it's just, I would, that's what I'm saying. I'm going to get canceled.

0:59:26 Thomas: Then we'll go down with that ship, Azul. Don't worry. To the end. It's so good.

0:59:30 Azul: Nobody talks about it. I mean, I guess they do in the States or whatever, but.

0:59:37 Thomas: What you're saying is you just, you miss that real authentic Mexican food that you just can't get where you're from. Get it. And the real injustice of our immigration system. Can I say? I'll tell you what. We felt like you could never have a home, but you got a home right here in Taco Bell fandom with the three of us together on this podcast.

0:59:54 Azul: I, Yes!

0:59:56 Matt: That's true.

0:59:57 Thomas: Your true home, Asul.

0:59:57 Matt: I

0:59:58 Azul: I mean, at some point, if I get to go stateside, I think we have to have Taco Bell. Don't make the rules.

1:00:03 Thomas: For sure. Seriousness, though, what do you think you want to happen? Because you've mentioned, difficulty you of coming back. But it's still, I mean, I imagine it would be great to at least have the ability, you know, at least of the choice.

1:00:03 Azul: Yeah, I want to be able to travel back and forth. That Like is like sexy fantasy, you know, where I get to travel back and forth as much as I want. One, because I just want to be able to see everybody and, like, don't know if I could deal with the anxiety of living stateside for two, because because I would like to have Taco Bell and also buy shoes that fit me. I'm like a size, I'm built like a hobbit, right? I'm, like, 5 '4 and a size 10, like shoe. There are no shoes for me here. Like, recently, I've been starting to following the drag girlies because I'm like, if they can get nice shoes, nice girly shoes, there has to be a place for me. But But getting shoes here for me has been personal health because my feet are too big. I would like to buy shoes and Taco Bell and my friends and family and go to a Beyonce concert.

1:01:05 Thomas: Legally, what would the options be, Matt? Could she ever live here again? Or would it just be about being able to go back and forth?

1:01:12 Matt: Yeah. Potentially, as I said, with a waiver, if she had a close relative or an employer who could file for her, that's certainly a conversation we could have. Be a permanent But more likely, I know what you're talking about is getting a tourist visa just for 10 years at a time. You can come and go. I think you have an interview coming up for that, right?

1:01:26 Azul: Yeah, March of 2025. So about a year from now. Oh,

1:01:29 Matt: Yeah. Out, you have to book them, yeah, to get a tourist visa, yeah.

1:01:32 Thomas: We will keep track of that. Azul, thank you so much for the time. Seriously, this has been an absolute pleasure. Really enjoyed it. Thanks for telling your story.

1:01:39 Azul: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

1:01:44 Matt: See you Monday.

1:01:44 Azul: See you Monday.

1:01:45 Matt: Well,

1:01:46 Thomas: You're welcome.

1:01:47 Clip: This podcast is a production of Opening Arguments Media, LLC, All Rights Reserved. It is produced and edited by Thomas Smith, who also provided the fabulous intro and outro music used with permission.

1:02:04 Azul: Am hoping that Matt is like, why did I hire this person? Just kidding. Um. Because he never gets to hear me like this. I'm just like, I like to think that I'm very professional at my job.

1:02:15 Matt: I've always wanted to hear you like this. This is great. I'm having a great time.

1:02:17 Azul: Yeah, I