Arrested on Her 22nd Birthday. She Didn't Know She Was Undocumented.

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:52 Thomas: And welcome to Opening Arguments. This is episode 1013. I'm your host, Thomas Smith, and I'm doing the intro here because today's episode is, gosh, I think it's different than any OA episode ever done in a great way because is an interview that enthusiastically wanted to do from day one of his being on the show and wow, I totally get why.

0:01:17 Thomas: Who deported from this country. You're expecting out of a description like that, you're wrong. I can safely say you're probably wrong because Because Azul and also her story, in some ways, it seems very hyper-specific and wow, what a set of circumstances. That probably And yet, in other ways, absolutely not. In other ways, it absolutely is reflective of so many of the dynamics we see in immigration and this country and right-wing religious entitlement and racism. And it's just, it's, I found that dichotomy so interesting.

It's a story that you truly, I would have never predicted any part of this story really at all. And yet taken on the whole, it is entirely predictable. Predictable but as well as an absolute delight I we anticipated this being you know today's episode and we recorded for 190 minutes. 190 minutes, I don't have that kind of time. That was how good this was.

I hundred minutes into it, I was like, don't worry about the time, like let's just talk and whatever it is, it is because Because it was truly that enjoyable, that fascinating, heart-wrenching. Cannot stay enough words about how excited I am for you hear This. So I guess I'll stop trying, to say that this is a conversation that will stick with me forever.

And it really proves the that people are so much more than their immigration status or their citizenship papers or whatever nonsense in that are unique and individual and unpredictable and amazing, each and every one. So with that said, I want to throw it over to the interview. Support the show, patreon.com/law, and you can avoid the ad breaks and also get part two early because yes, it was 190 minutes raw. There's going to be two parts. So so much for supporting the show. Those who do, get on over to the interview.

0:03:12 Matt: My absolute pleasure to introduce you to my good friend and right-hand Azul Uribe. Azul, you there?

0:03:17 Azul: Am here!

0:03:18 Thomas: Nice to meet you. Welcome.

0:03:19 Matt: Right.

0:03:20 Azul: You! Thank am in Merida, Yucatan, Mexico, which is south. In the southern part of Mexico, about four hours from everybody's favorite spring break, central Cancun, Mexico. Mexico. As much spring break activity here, thank goodness.

0:03:21 Matt: Are you exactly?

0:03:37 Matt: Great. Well, I wanted to really thank you for coming on. I know, so just so everybody understands, Azul and I get to talk every day and I have a great time with her because she's been working with us for what, two years now? Is that right?

0:03:47 Azul: Year and a half. Yeah, a year und a half, something

0:03:48 Matt: Yeah, something like that. Right. And absolutely invaluable. I don't know how we did this before, but we met on Twitter a while back and she asked if I'd ever considered using a virtual assistant. It's something she was doing and she is very, very good at it. We've never met in person, but I rely on her for so many things. Getting to know her a little bit over the last couple of years and some about her story, there's actually a lot here that I don't know. And I thought it'd be fun to get into her background, her story. Introduce her and case, this that we're talking about here is very representative of a lot of the kinds of cases that we work on. All that, that. Want to tell us a little bit about yourself and your background?

0:04:19 Azul: Am almost 40 this year. Sorry, I'm very excited about finally hitting the big 4 -0. Was born in Cancun, Mexico. And then I was taken as a kid to the U.S. always sort of had this very sort of ambiguous cultural kind of upbringing because Cancun is sort of this very, I don't want to say it's a city without identity, but it was made with the sole purpose of bringing in foreign tourism in the 70s. It's a relatively young city, so it just turned 50 years old. I I was the first generation of babies born in the city. So we have a lot of American influences, a lot of European influences. My mom took me to the States as a a kid. And it was also imposed by the fact that I was born into the Mormon church, a very American religion. This very special mix of things that sort us to the US. My first first US home of sorts was the Salt Lake City, Idaho area, very Mormon centric.

0:05:29 Matt: And just actually before we talk about Salt Lake City, back a second. When you said that your mom brought you here, how did you come into the United States?

0:05:32 Azul: I understand now that it was on a tourist visa. And then then we just overstayed. So then, you know, you could do a lot of different things in airports and stuff, like go to the actual gate and say goodbye to your loved ones. You immigration was a little more, well, it wasn't as digitized and precise and it wasn t the monster of complications that it is now. So my mom just told me at the time, she s like, a man is going to ask you questions. You are going to smile and you are going to look at me, like whenever he asks something very complicated. And I did. And then he just let us through.

0:05:47 Thomas: Oh, God. Yeah. To

0:06:14 Azul: Funny enough, I got a social security in Idaho. Like I know I have a social security number. I mom went to the social security office and was like, my kids don't have a social insecurity. And because it was this small Idaho town, the lady was like like, oh, we can't have that. And she just gave her social security numbers for me and my brother.

0:06:34 Matt: I understand it used to be easier for people that came on tourist visas to get these. I've never really understood this because it's before my time. I'd be interested to know more about how that worked. But I mean, they gave you one, so you have it.

0:06:44 Azul: Yeah. Said it had like in big bold letters that it was not for work, like don't know what it was for, but but it said not for employment purposes.

0:06:54 Matt: You settled in Salt Lake, is that that right?

0:06:55 Azul: Did. And we went back and forth quite a bit because my mom didn't like American culture very much, but she saw that we we were doing really well. And it was, again, very Mormon heavy, which

0:07:08 Thomas: Look, I won't defend America much, if at all, ever, Azul. But if your mom is basing all of American culture on Salt Lake City, Utah, I just want to say it's not representative. It doesn't mean it doesn't mean we're like better necessarily.

0:07:23 Azul: The place that has like, dirty sodas into the national imagination is not representative of the entire country.

0:07:29 Matt: And

0:07:33 Thomas: It's actually 112% white. Somehow they squeezed more white than is, I don't know how they did it, but they're more white than people. It is amazing.

0:07:42 Azul: A story about that. There was a time when When I lived in Cedar City, and there, okay, know. You know what kind of town it is. Like, they call it Festival City or whatever, but there was this one point where this kid goes, me and we, we were like you from the other side of the campus. And we just ran to each other and hugged. He was like it's so nice to see somebody else here. And I was like same.

0:07:44 Thomas: Please. I visited Cedar City, Utah.

0:08:09 Thomas: That's great Here's my story. Here is my Cedar City story. This was in college in theater and It's actually like a competition for come and watch your shows that you put on. Then if you get nominated, you get to go. It is sort of like a little, it is almost like like an awards show slash competition thing. Like you go compete for like the, you musical in the whatever region or whatever, best show or best actor or whatever. And for some reason, that thing, which was like, oh, excited, we're nominated for something. Cool. That's going to be a fun trip. They're like, "Yeah, it's in Cedar City, Utah." It's like, what? Okay. I was in college. I didn't really, I wasn't very well traveled. I was just like, all right, Utah, tell that's, that's weird. And we go there and multiple times, like, I'm an, know, I, 20 year old kid who knows nothing. Like I very, not worldly in any way.

I was just like, yeah, here to do the theater stuff. Multiple times we're walking like to and from where the theater was, or people would just yell at us. Like we'd just be walking down the street and a truck, a truck with people in it, and you, you can't tell I'm quite white if it's not coming through the microphone, very white.

0:08:18 Azul: Okay. Right.

0:09:13 Azul: Love

0:09:13 Thomas: So yeah, I would've figured I'd blend right into Cedar City, you know, like I wasn't particularly edgy or anything, but somehow they knew, like they just knew, walking down the street like that, guy something about him, they're like, yeah, and they just yell at us and we're like, I do not know what this is, what is happening, is that yeah

0:09:14 Azul: That for you. Okay.

0:09:29 Matt: A white guy.

0:09:30 Azul: Here's what I think was happening with you. Okay, obviously this, I don't have any hard data, but one, Mormons can spot other Mormons in the wild. Like, we know. Not even a practicing Mormon anymore. Like, is a different chapter of my life. Um, have discovered the joys of coffee. Um, the thing is, I, there is a Mormon around, it is like a sixth sense, I'm like, that's a Morman.

0:09:52 Thomas: So are you saying the same thing applies in reverse, so they could tell I was not Mormon even though I'm wearing a Mormon, like, disguise by being white, I don't know. Okay he's

0:09:54 Azul: Yes. Yes yeah yes they were like, oh, he's, he doesn't have yes

0:10:05 Thomas: Got pep in his step, he's had caffeine, everyone, everyone.

0:10:09 Azul: Or they were like, oh, that's somebody who knows how to properly swear, you know, because you, like, that has, like, oh, that little you know you don't say heck and shoot and like, you know, that's you've got that vibe going on So they were like, that's one of the cool kids.

0:10:16 Thomas: They could just sense it. Okay. Yeah. Fair. Okay, but wondered what's going on for decades about that, but, I love that also that it seems a very yelly culture. I don't know that town. I'm not sure, but. I like that it was utilized for good purposes. It I love, was that you had that. That's so nice.

0:10:38 Azul: So was a special moment. But yeah, you know it was like one of these because it's such a I mean you've been there it's so small. It's like like very small.

0:10:47 Thomas: So that's definitely what we came here to talk about, though. Let's solve Cedar City. I've

0:10:50 Azul: Obviously Cedar City, who doesn't want to bond over that?

0:10:55 Matt: So your mom choose Utah? Do you know?

0:10:57 Azul: It was, Cancun there grew, and you know, it grew at such a fast pace and a very specific, like, cultural flavor. So it has, you know, like a lot of parties, um, was this like very religious overtone of like, it's at all these foreigners coming into our city and like tempting our children to sin type of a thing, and my mom was just like really worried about us. I mean, I, I remember having a really fun childhood, like, that part of my childhood, and I didn't, I just thought it was like goofy, you know, like poor American kids, they're sunburned, they are drunk, they look miserable half of the time, like, because it's getting to see the day after the party, right, during the daytime hours, and they just did not look like they were having the best time, and I was just like, I don't understand how that's my prediction. Um, my mom was like, better opportunities in the US, you're gonna learn how to speak English without an accent, because she was very excited about that, about Idaho, which, you know.

0:12:00 Matt: Wow.

0:12:01 Azul: What?

0:12:01 Thomas: Never heard that sentence. In I'm 37, I've never heard anyone be excited about Idaho in any context, that

0:12:08 Azul: Are going to hear a lot of those funky things from me, you are welcome in advance. Um, and I'm like culturally American enough to where I understand that. I've never heard anybody say that about Idaho. I get what that means.

0:12:22 Matt: And you've been there. So are saying you didn't speak English when you came to the U.S.? I didn't know that.

0:12:23 Thomas: Yeah, okay.

0:12:27 Azul: I did not. Was like eight. Eight or nine.

0:12:31 Thomas: It would be more funny as well if all you knew was English from college kids partying, like, so you knew like a few things what was trendy back in that time, were we in the like, yeah, era, like, that was like what every college guy said, that was my, my era because of whatever that show was what

0:12:40 Azul: Oh my goodness. That was your college? No. I just remember being like, oh of base that was the thing like like was a kid who was brought up with the fear of God, right, like you cannot lie and lying is bad. There's like this weird middle ground in like Mormonism them where they sort of like turned a blind eye towards undocumented members, because that is like, at least was when I was younger, the fastest growing demographic in the US. When So the church has these big general meetings twice a year, on April and then October.

Of the things they do during this like long, two like day meetings where it's like and their mom, who's like a big honcho leader talks, right? Giving you the word of God. But one of things that they do is they report numbers and they'll say where new like which they're going to open new ones.

And that has a lot to do with membership, like of the things that the church has been reporting for like years and years is they're next to no baptisms, like numbers in Europe are very low, but numbers in the US are sort of, or were sort of high.

0:12:52 Matt: That's your era. How could

0:13:54 Azul: That and had migrated that were being converted. But the thing is you can't have certain organizational things, um, you have like, I know, privileges within membership. And you can't have those privileges within membership if you're doing something illegal. And I say illegal in quotation marks, right? Right? Because illegal immigration, I don't know how salty I can be with my language. It's absolute like bullshit. It is just like a membership club, right? If you are really rich, you can migrate wherever you want. Church sort of like removed a lot of these like things in terms of migration so that they could have more organizational things and these members could sort of, like, enjoy privileges and they could report these bigger numbers, members.

0:14:40 Thomas: A multi-level marketing scheme, I get it, yeah.

0:14:42 Azul: Be honest, yeah, like in The great American tradition, if it sort of like became this thing and could tell like the major church organization, like, was aware of this because for example, um, not spoken about, but undocumented missionaries are sent within the continent, continental U.S., but they're, they're not sent through airports. Mission calling they get for those two years. A mission is a-year-old boy goes and serves God for two years, like, or whatever. They send them within the continental U.S. only traveling by bus, and they get very strict rules about who they can tell and who they cannot tell.

0:14:44 Thomas: Uh. Wow.

0:15:22 Azul: In to protect these missionaries. In fact, in the early 2000s, there was, the reason why these rules were implemented is they had a missionary fly into Ohio and ICE grabbed him and deported him immediately, even though he'd spent the majority of his life in the US. So the church is aware of this. They turned very much a blind eye towards it. And I didn't know that I was part of that not great contingency, right? Like the, that the women in my family had was, we're not going to tell her anything. We're going to tell her that she's okay. She's going to assimilate. And then she is going to marry a good return missionary. And then we'll tell her once she's married to a good, like, missionary, who is also a US citizen, then we're going to tell her, hey, by the way, like, fix your status.

0:16:09 Thomas: And that way, so you wouldn't have ever had to, like, lie to anybody.

0:16:14 Azul: I to me, I I was golden, right? And I did assimilate well, like I sound like a valley girl.

0:16:21 Thomas: You like, it sounded like it was your goal, perhaps, to not have you have to lie. Like she's kind of keeping your conscience clean or something. Interesting.

0:16:27 Azul: Yeah. And

0:16:29 Matt: To confirm here, you did your grade school and high school all the way through in the U.S.? Is you never applied for a driver's license or needed to have ID?

0:16:32 Azul: So sixth I grade, high and then some college. Did apply for a driver's license, but remember that social security that I had? Just like didn't ask questions. I just thought it was so funny that had undocumented friends. And I was just like, wow, that must be so hard. You know, like you David music playing like because it really was me completely ignorant to the fact that I too was one.

0:16:43 Matt: Ah, right, of course.

0:16:57 Thomas: Yeah. You go through your childhood, essentially, and you don't know what's up, really. Just know that your social security card looks slightly different for some or says not for work purposes. But how would anyone know? Like if you were, this is your whole life. I I wouldn't know. No one would know. There are so many things that I had no idea. Look, I'm, not undocumented, but my My parents were Weird as hell in so much. So many ways that I didn't know until I go out into the wide world and I'm like, Oh, not everyone just eats McDonald's instead of ever going to a restaurant in their life? That's just a, my dad thing. Okay. That's weird. So

0:17:34 Azul: I go to Utah for a college. This college that I went to was, I realized, like foundational for like, tea party, and like, like Glenn Beck ended up being involved with that college. It was full of homeschoolers. It was like really interesting little world. But you know, at the time I was like, yeah, I'm like my people, I .e. Mormons.

I'm like this very conservative environment and I bought into the people would be like, oh, you know, Mexicans, but not like you, because I sound this way. I, my whole time in high school, people would ask me if I was like Polynesian or Asian, and I would be like, no, Mexican, thank you. I'm like racially ambiguous, I'm fair -skinned. Hair's not politicized.

A lot of my features exist in that middle ground where people are going to like, with a question mark, but not push too much the moment they hear me talk. So in a Mormon environment, that did really well. And tasked with babysitting these kids, and I was babysitting them in a very Mormon cultural context. What does that mean?

Lot of times girls are tasked with labor that you would define maybe as some kind of like slavery or mistreatment or forced labor, but you're doing it for the, the blessings.

0:18:55 Thomas: Oh, Okay. So that's cool, you mean literal babysitting? Like, I wasn't sure if you meant like, oh, I'm just babysitting these other college students because they're dumb or something, like dumb white kids, or do You mean literal, like, hey, do do this babysitting for some reason, for

0:19:05 Azul: You Yeah, I was doing this babysitting. It was about 10 kids and wasdoing it for two days, 16 hour days. And I think I got paid like when I worked out the math, cents it an hour when I was getting getting paid every day.

0:19:21 Thomas: Who Had you, you do this, is it part of the college or part of, what, what context is This, oh

0:19:25 Azul: They Were having this like constitutional, like, thing, it And, was like, can you do this? And it's sort of this implied shorthand of, are going to pay you next to nothing and you're going to do it because it's for the blessings. Like, you're helping build the kingdom of God in a way. And, you do these things because country and God are completely indistinguishable, and you have to bring the kingdom of God back into this absolutely godless u .s right, of, according to conservatives, the commies and the gays and Exactly. Um, but not like me, not like, um,

0:20:00 Thomas: And illegals, yeah. What How did that feel to be around so many white Mormons and have them be like, but you're one of the good ones? How for you? What did you think of that?

0:20:13 Azul: Think it really warped with my sense of worth, in, they would say like, you're one of The Good Ones. And I'd be like, well, what's wrong with The Other Ones? You know, sort of like when a guy tries to, you're Not Like Other Girls, well, What's Wrong With Other Girls? You Yeah. I remember it chipped away a lot at like personhood. I didn't identify this until much much later when I'd gotten out because it constantly like I was told that I was performing correctly, but it was never going to be correct enough for me to become good white person.

0:20:20 Thomas: Yeah. Right. A huge red flag.

0:20:46 Thomas: Right.

0:20:46 Azul: The same time, I was just like trying so hard, you it felt like no matter how hard I tried, like Was never going going to be to God's liking. That it was my job, if I was like a loving child of God, for me to, spend the rest of my life breaking myself to fit into that mold. 20s are so much about like developing your sense of worth. They are in the words of philosopher Julia Fox um trenches they really are like I would never return to my 20s um at the same time you're like figuring things out you're

0:21:21 Thomas: You're at theater competitions in Cedar City, baby. Learning about the world. Yeah.

0:21:24 Azul: Where Mormon kids yell at you?

0:21:31 Thomas: Forgive me, Azul. I still Don't know who was employing you to do this, like babysitting. Were for someone? Because you're just a student, right? Was it somebody in the college?

0:21:38 Azul: Yeah. It was just adults in the college who like sort of were not but were friendly with the faculty. So they'd heard about me and they were like, oh, she's staying here during this break. Oh, well ask her. And I was trying so hard to get in like people's good graces, right?

0:21:51 Thomas: Oh, I see. Yeah, gotcha.

0:21:56 Azul: Because I felt like no matter how hard I I tried. They didn't like me, but I was like, okay, they're going to see that I'm serious about this, that I're really good. I'm going to get like I'm gonna really be accepted as one of like the good kids. Was not what happened.

0:22:11 Thomas: No way.

0:22:12 Azul: Shocker.

0:22:13 Thomas: Sorry.

0:22:15 Azul: There of of the kids had a behavioral problem that I had not been informed of. It turned into my inexperience, because I was about to turn 22 or about to turn 23. And here's the thing about growing up in a want to say a very conservative religious environment. I feel like you are in this constant state of arrested development where you just don't develop a lot of tools that you're supposed to have by that age.

0:22:40 Thomas: Amen. Ironically enough. Couldn't agree more.

0:22:45 Azul: Kid had behavioral problems. She ran out to the desert. There were 10 other kids, right, that I was in charge of. Was like, I have to get her back. Wasn't vaccinated and she could hardly read even though she was almost 12. But back then, And the anti -vax sentiment had not blossomed as powerfully as it has now in the U.S. into a scuffle. And I don't want to be like, oh, I wasn't responsible in any way because I was in my 20s. This was a 12 -year -old child. Child. Didn't know how to handle it. I thought that it had just been something funny because of the way the adults reacted when they got home. You these adults saw me and I was completely beat up and bruised. This kid was scuffed up.

0:23:26 Thomas: Oh, wow. So this kid like ran out into, into desert and you had to try to like catch them.

0:23:33 Azul: Because to me, I was like, if something happens to this kid in the desert, they're going to call the police on me and I'm I'm going to be in trouble.

0:23:38 Thomas: Yeah. Well, yeah, you've been, you decided that you were going to be in charge of 10 kids that you didn't know at the age of 22, which, okay, sure. You're technically an an adult, but you're not equipped for that. Like did you have any training or something? Or this was just, Hey, let's make use of this free, essentially labor.

0:23:58 Azul: I a woman. What training did I need in a religious community when immediately I came equipped with the mechanics biologically, according to religion?

0:24:07 Thomas: Ah,

0:24:10 Matt: How many kids did you think you were going to be taking care of? Did

0:24:12 Azul: Given me a number. They were just like, oh, sorry, some friends heard that you were were doing this for us. So they left their kids too. And like, of course, what was I going to say? Like, I wasn't going to be like, no, you

0:24:25 Thomas: Yeah. I don't know what you're supposed to do.

0:24:28 Azul: I these people to like me.

0:24:30 Matt: At the point at which this girl runs out the door, you've got 10 kids you're leaving behind, so you're in an impossible situation, obviously.

0:24:35 Azul: I I look back on it, I'm like, you Know, I was gonna lose either way. Like, was no no way I was going to win that.

0:24:43 Azul: She ran out because she was like, "I'm not going to do what you're going to tell me to do. Like, who are you? You're not even my mom." She just ran out. And later on, I'd heard about about this kid. Like, had friends be like, "Oh yeah, I once stayed at that family's house and and that kid grabbed a knife and, like, went under my door and started stabbing because this kid was mad that they'd given, you, other college student this room to stay in." Like, just had, like, very strong emotional reactions and nobody had told me about it. Now I'm like, oh, I would have called the parents, which I don't know, maybe I would have seen as too dramatic, but go well. I said, when the adults came home, I just remember they laughed. They thought it was so funny. They were like, "Wow, you got beat up by a 12-year-old. Aren't you embarrassed?" And I just remember thinking, okay, everyone's laughing about this. I, like, shit, but everyone's laughing about this and I need to laugh about this too. It

0:24:39 Thomas: Yeah, I don't understand what planet other people are from. I'm sorry. I don't understand it as well. I don't, look, I've got kids and constantly scared of the fact that I leave them with people, both, just because it's like, I feel like, all right, I know how to manage my kids for the most part, but even I around them all the time, you, I, know, sometimes they're unpredictable. I don't know what's going to happen. My biggest fear is they're going to do something weird. And some poor babysitter is going to be like, "I don't know what to do. They did it." But like, let alone if you have a 12 year old child, apparently has severe behavioral problems, and you're, you're going to just like piggyback on someone else's free babysitter or something and leave them there and be like, "Yeah, you should be fine with 10 kids, including one with severe behavioral problems." And then when you get beaten up by that kid, they're laughing about it. I don't understand what planet other people are from. I don't get it. That would be horrified.

0:26:33 Azul: Such a weird situation and it kept getting like weirder, and after this happened, because it was a small school, word got around, and I'd seen this interaction from the parents, and I was like, okay, I don't understand what all the whispering is about. But one of their friends, who was like an important person at the school, sat me down and was like, "You are an embarrassment of a woman. And I was like what? And they just went into me for like two hours. And that was like I feel terrible about what happened. And he's like well obviously not bad enough because you're not crying. It went, I I just like started panic, panic attacks. And then like that same week, somebody had been like, you need to get out of the state for a while. Just get out OF THE STATE FOR THE SUMMER.

0:26:57 Thomas: What?

0:27:11 Thomas: What?

0:27:21 Thomas: What?

0:27:21 Azul: And I was like, why? Like hindsight, it was like the secret language that the white adults in my life, like the white adultier adults in my life knew that I was not picking up on because I was just like, about it. And I'm naive about things even up to this age. Like like to remind Matt of a time where had to be very direct with me and be like, I need you to understand that what was said like like, is not what actually happened. Always very kind about it. But I was like, oh, oh, and he's like, that's not what happened. Like, need you to know that.

0:27:57 Thomas: So someone's lying and you them because you're, you going to give people the benefit of the doubt.

0:28:02 Azul: And, you know, my much more experienced boss slash friend is like, that's how it happened. Please this thing at work, where we're constantly like, you can't be getting too invested. You have to take a break because It's like, no, I need to like finish this for this person because they're going through this thing and I don't want them to go through this thing. And it's just like, need to go have lunch. That's what you need to do, or you need to like go take a nap. That's what you need to do, type of a thing, because otherwise we'll be 5, 6, and it's just like, I'm just going to finish this one more thing. And it's like, no, don't finish it. Like, go rest. Go be a human, you

0:28:13 Matt: It's true.

0:28:03 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Talked about that in Matt's first episode on the show. And it is really, it's so hard, because seems to me, a outsider, obviously, that it relies on like a lot of this work relies on good people doing a lot lot of free or underpaid labor to barely make a dent in just the horrible situations that are going on. And, and correct me if that's not good way to put it, but it just feels like it relies on the most, maybe some of the most empathetic people in our society, just as much as they can, until they have like a nervous breakdown, because it must be so awful to have to like deal with that all the time. And, like, people are human and can only do so much.

0:29:15 Azul: Mean, it happens a lot. And you just, you like, not saying this because my boss is on the line. But I am lucky that because my immigration attorney was not the compassionate, but like is a lot of compassion at the office, and there have been many instances where I'm just like, oh, can we just do this one, like it's a tight, like, I know it's allowed to end, it's never like, oh, so much more work. Even though we're up to our eyeballs with stuff, it's always, yeah, we can do it, we'll squeeze it in, we'll figure it out. And, you know, it is like an impossible looking deadline, and you're just like, I, the entire ocean, but like, like, I can Help This One starfish.

0:29:55 Matt: To get the one. We can get the one starfish. And it's dangerous. But I got to say how much I appreciate where you're coming from and the passion that you put into this. And I do want to advise you to step back, but But let's get back to your life, though. Point did the police get involved? Always

0:30:10 Azul: So this altercation goes on and, adults in my life are telling me this and I'm completely clueless as to what the fuck is happening. Oh, sorry. No swearing. I'm on the podcast. Uh, the freak is happening? Let me bring, bring back that Mormon side.

0:30:19 Thomas: That was more offensive, actually. I'm going to leave the F word in. What the flippity frick is that? No, we can't do that. I'm sorry.

0:30:31 Azul: Um, Sorry for being so offensive on the the podcast, um, remember the specifics super well, but I do remember that the mom sat me down and was like, "Just go talk to the detective." Like, we just had to get them involved because we didn't want them looking at us very closely, right? So their kid is 12, um, hearing concerns from other adults around that. They don't want child protective, protective services looking into this, like, at them because they homeschooled their kids. Their kids are unvaccinated, which was not popular at the time, you believe that? That's a phrase?

0:31:07 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, now they'd be made mayor. But, yeah, back then.

0:31:12 Azul: Didn't know how to read very well either, right? Now I was being told was, we're putting the heat on you, so don't look at us too closely. I don't know how true that is. Like, I want to say, yeah, that makes sense, but like, that I've worked at in therapy, shout out to therapists, any was like, you do realize that they had the option to just not call the cops. Like that could have been something.

0:31:18 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, well, exactly. Exactly. Because like, I sort of see what you're trying to piece together there, except I don't know where the original attention is coming from anyway. Is it like some rival Mormon weirdos are trying to get them in trouble and like report it? Because otherwise, you There's no reporting that needs to happen. I don't understand what do you know what that first kind is, or is it just still a mystery to this day?

0:31:55 Azul: Still a mystery because it, a good young Mormon girl at the time, so so much of my goodness or like a significant amount of my goodness was related to ingrained is you trust authority figures. Authority figures do not lie. Figures want what's best for you. And here was an authority figure saying this to me. And now in hindsight, I'm like, that doesn't make any sense. Like, why would you say that? Like that doesn't add up. And something thing that I go over, like that I'm able to look at it with enough distance between me and the event, um, I'm like, so much of this does not add up. Like, math isn't mathing, as the children say. Um, she told me, "You just go talk to the detective." Of course, I went and talked to the detectives like a boo-boo the fool. I mean, now that that I work for a firm and have you seen that like viral set of lawyers who are like, "If a cop asks to talk to you," I'm going to do some self editing here. "You shut the F up." You don't say anything. You shot the F off.

0:32:50 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:32:53 Matt: The best advice.

0:32:53 Azul: Asked to bring your attorney, you shut the up. And there's so many times where I just see it now where it's just say anything. These people are not your friends. They are not you. They are your buddies. They don't care. They go But went to talk to the detective. It was the day before my birthday too. And I went in and he asked me for my ID. He got so mad that I was lying that it was the date before my birth date. He was like, do you know it's a federal crime to lie to, like, a police officer?

0:33:20 Thomas: What?

0:33:20 Azul: And

0:33:21 Thomas: What was the lie? Did you ask him for like cake or something? Like, what is the, what is it? It's my birthday tomorrow, so you can't charge me with any crimes, officer.

0:33:30 Azul: I guess it was like to sort of mitigate like his guilt. It was just weird because then at one point he was like, "I've heard you joke about being undocumented," and I was like, "Yeah, I also joke about polygamy, you know, which, I'm sorry, which woman worth their, um, like

0:33:45 Thomas: Weird underwear. Which Mormon worth their weird underwear doesn't joke about polygamy? I agree.

0:33:52 Azul: I always joke about being sister wives with my friends, like, is that a big deal, you know, like, come on." But was just really mad and he, me, if like things that, um, transpired, did transpire, and askedme if I went after her, at one point I did straddle her, um, held her hands above her head because I was trying desperately not to get hit because what she started to do what was pinch my thighs and them. Also, at one point when I was hugging them against me, they started slamming their head against my chest because they were screaming that they wanted to give me a heart attack. They swung a two by four at me. Sure, I slapped them at one points. I said, I'm not free of fault in this. I like, understand that I was older. Wish that a different tactic had been taken because I was, not kidding you, scared out of my mind because

0:34:04 Thomas: What specifically? What was he worried about? The fight?

0:34:47 Thomas: Yeah.

0:34:47 Azul: I'd never dealt with a situation like that. I was extremely confused because everybody thought it was so funny. Like getting into the shower the night after the event and looking at, I had all these bruises in like my inner thighs and in my chest. Just remember like, thinking like, I'm so dumb. I'm so dumb for like letting a kid best me. Like I'm still a kid. I don't know. I just, I don'm so dumb. Like And I deserve to be laughed at, you that's what all the adults were doing. They were like, Oh, you silly girl type of a thing. Like, I was not understanding how everybody seemed to have this common language and I was just feeling different things about it.

0:35:24 Matt: You told officer the all of this about what happened.

0:35:27 Azul: I did, which, have shut the F up. But, he charged me with misdemeanor child abuse and I started sobbing. He handcuffed me right there. Was like, you need to be quiet cause you're crying too much. And I was like, Like, time I think about my time with cops, it's just like John playing in my brain, just going, what, okay, what. Because would get mad at me for, like things that the cops got mad about, I just did not know how to like help it, you understand and they would get angrier about it. One example, I got fingerprinted, but I have like weird hands, like my hands, the skin on my hands is very thin. It just, the machines never grab it really well. It's always a problem. And now that I have to deal with fingerprinting machines in any way, shape or form, I just get really anxious because I know it's a problem, but at the time, you they were fingerprinting me and the machine would just reject it, reject it. And I remember one of the cops said, do you just slice your fingers for fun? And I was like, what?

0:35:33 Thomas: Wow.

0:36:30 Azul: And he was like, What's wrong with your hands? And that was just like, don't I really know, you know, and he's like, why do they have all these lines? What is wrong? Why? And then he got mad at me because I I just started sweating because I just got so anxious and he was like, stop sweating. And after all of this, because I'd made these jokes about being undocumented, they were like, we're sending you to detention. Just provide us with a birth certificate. And I WAS like, I don't carry one with me, which made them really angry. I'm so sorry. Do you carry one with you? And that was not the right response either. Tell you this. Cellmates, because I was put like with the general population or whatever, absolute angels.

I hope that like higher being exists watches over each one of those ladies, blesses them them with money, with hot partners of their choosing with, were like so concerned about me. They circled me and they Were like, why are you crying? Don't worry about it. You know? And I was just like, I'm in jail. I've never been in jail, you know? Um, and they're like, it's okay. We're here too.

0:36:44 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Stop sweating. Wow. What kind of Mormon crimes did they commit? What was their deal?

0:37:42 Azul: Surprisingly, a lot of meth, um. Think there were a couple of people in there for, um, crimes, uh, mostly meth. Yeah, they were so nice, like nothing but love for those women, I will love them till the day I die, um. Got a TV and they were like, about which TV show might be most comforting for me, like Laura Ingalls Wilde or Oprah, um, but respect for those ladies, because how nice

0:37:44 Thomas: Okay. Wow, I know, growing up a conservative kid, I all this is the opposite of what I would've thought. But now that I know better, I'm like, fuck yeah. Oh, sorry. I'm on my own show. You're a bad influence, Azul. I'm reporting you for this. No, that I totally believe that, like, yeah, of course the, you know, people who were detained for various and sundry crimes are going to be so much nicer as people than any of the asshole cops that arrested you, like, yes, they're so comforting and kind compared to these monsters that were like telling you to stop sweating. Oh god, yeah.

0:38:17 Azul: Oh.

0:38:44 Azul: Know those things where you're like, am I dumb, like my brain busted, because, you know, they're telling you a thing and you want to be like, how, how do I do, like

0:38:53 Thomas: When you're 22, totally, it's it's horrible, it's honestly, that's horrible, that's, that's it's bullying, it's awful, it really is.

0:39:00 Azul: And they could not understand why I was hysterical, right? Like, I grew up Mormon, I had barely gotten my first kiss as a 20 year old, and like, this was to a guy that I ended up engaged to, by the way, like, which is another story. But before they Put you in, they give you clothes and they strip searched you. And I'd never been naked in front of anybody. And I was just hysterical. And they were like, you need to calm down or we're going to put you into solitary or something. Because they were, were treating me like I was being unreasonable, and I was like, I've never shown my naked body to anybody. You know, remember, one of the cops was like, well, maybe you should have thought of that before you did this. And

0:39:17 Thomas: We'll do a later episode on just that. I guess, what?

0:39:52 Thomas: Oh my god, assholes, fucking, yeah.

0:39:54 Azul: Is why people say defund the police. Like, why would I Want to give money to that? Like, anyway, shout out to my inmates who I don't remember, December, May,

0:39:57 Thomas: Uh. You said you have a reunion, or That Would Be great, the 20 year coming up, you know, and see How they all Are, it's

0:40:06 Azul: Wouldn't that be so fun? And I That one of them was like, what's your name? And then I said my name, like, my name is Azul, right? And they were like, let's just call you baby girl. And nothing but respect for that because she was like, too, too hard, let's just give us training wheels with this one, right?

0:40:28 Thomas: Not that, that hard, okay, sure, wow.

0:40:30 Matt: How long were you in there? The

0:40:31 Azul: Was In there for a little over 24 hours. I got strip searched four times.

0:40:38 Thomas: Well.

0:40:38 Azul: They strip searched me first when they put me in general population, then I was taking to the detention center, which was also a circus, because I got stripped searched again, put in a van, they, it, it was my birthday at this point. It was already my birthday. And they were, I'm want to say I'm making this up, but they were listening to Rush Limbaugh, these two dudes who were transporting me. And She starts talking about immigration, I will spontaneously combust. Like, no way, my body is not going to do that. Like, am handcuffed, hands and feet, in the back of this van, having to listen to Rush Limbaugh on my birthday, like

0:41:01 Matt: ICE detention?

0:41:15 Thomas: That's interesting, though, were was your feeling toward Rush Limbaugh as somebody who's trying to blend in to the white Mormon, you hellscape you were in.

0:41:22 Azul: Think this is a common experience where somebody asks you the thing that you don't want them to ask you and you, you just sort of like deflect, you like pivot, but like you pivot so cute that they don't notice that you pivoted, right? They're like unsavory aspects that I knew how to pivot from. Like, I was never one of the Prop 8 supporters, when like people talked about like gay marriage or whatever, oh, pivoted. And at the time, I just didn't acknowledge, I was like, oh.

And Rush Limbaugh was, you know, I never admitted to liking him, I just pivoted, like, ooh, you know who I do like. And then at the time, even like within Mormonism, there's people who are like more sort of like liberally, like it's like signaling that, ooh, you know, you're a little, a spicy Mormon in a way, which, I was in the church, like of the the leaders is, believe it or not, German.

And he is considered one of like more compassionate and sort of liberally ones, Uchtdorf. And a lot of people say that he's a silver fox. He's like his 80s now? 70s? I don't know. He's old. They're old. And old, um.

0:42:29 Thomas: Yeah, no young black women in charge of the Mormon church, really, there's no weird

0:42:34 Azul: Um. Sad state of affairs is people are like diversity whenever it's somebody out of Utah. I wish I was kidding, like look at how diverse we are. It's Nobody From Wyoming.

0:42:34 Thomas: Okay. Wow. An Old White Man Man from

0:42:47 Azul: Roaming.

0:42:47 Thomas: Idaho, yeah. Diversity hire, it's Newt Gingrich looking asshole and they're like, he just got in because of diversity hires. You're so, he's from Wyoming.

0:42:48 Azul: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah exactly.

0:43:03 Matt: So, Azul, you're in the back of the ICE van going to ICE detention at this point, listening to Rush Limbaugh. Do you understand the gravity of your situation? What's going on?

0:43:08 Thomas: Jeez. That's hell. That's absolute hell. Yeah.

0:43:11 Matt: I

0:43:07 Azul: I I just think something really weird is happening to me, and I know something's off, but I don't know to what degree, and I don't even know who who to ask. And think, at the time, like when I got my one phone call, I only knew my best friend's number at the same time. And I called him and I was like, "I'm in jail, please tell this, this and this person." It. I didn't know. I realized now, and it's something that like seeps into my mind and like random moments of panic, that I would would not be able to do that now, cause I don't know anybody's phone number.

0:43:43 Thomas: God. Do they still make you do that? Because what's the point? I'd be like, I could call 911. I know that one. Is that, does that do anything? 911 help. I'm under arrest.

0:43:51 Azul: I don't, I don't know, Matt. Like, know you do more criminal stuff.

0:43:55 Matt: Think they'd let you get a number off your phone before calling. But nobody knows numbers anymore.

0:43:58 Thomas: Oh, okay. No.

0:44:01 Matt: More. That's absolutely true. But I guess I was wondering, though, did you understand that you're going to immigration detention and going to be facing immigration issues at that point?

0:44:09 Azul: Knew I was going to detention, but I wasn't sure of the degree of issues that I was gonna be facing.

0:44:15 Thomas: Well, yeah. Do you even know if you're undocumented at this point? I wow. You thought. Okay. It's because I made these jokes, maybe.

0:44:18 Azul: I didn't. I didn't know. I Yeah.

0:44:24 Thomas: And they're like, oh, they're going to clear this up, though, I'm sure.

0:44:27 Azul: Exactly. I'm like, something's gonna work out. Something It's totally going to work out.

0:44:27 Thomas: Ah, yeah. I mean, that's what I would think in your situation.

0:44:33 Azul: We to the detention center, and the guy at the detention center was just livid, just so mad, because my brother, again, brother bless his soul, wherever he, well, I know where he is. He's in Texas. He is one of my besties, but I don't know why I was talking about him like that. He's fine. He's he's thriving, love him, um, yes, had somehow figured out the name of every ICE detention center that they could have taken me to.

0:44:51 Thomas: May he rest forever and care his angel wing. He's in Texas, though. He's alive. He's fine. Brother is like a cellmate to you at You know, he's like that close. Like,

0:45:14 Azul: And he guy was really mad because my brother had not stopped calling, and was like, I can't, I come in like handcuffs, hands and feet, right, and he's like, like, "Tell your brother to stop calling. I am so sick of him." And he's like, "I don't even want to see you right now," to get out of this like room before I do something. Like, he was red. He was livid.

0:45:13 Thomas: Oh, wow, okay, okay, these People are evil, by the way. Like, I like, it's, here's the problem, is you're too delightful to listen to, because what we're hearing is a very delightful person describe literal fucking Nazism. Like, I can't even, like, this is horrible. Everyone's mad at you for, like, like the that you've done to be a of this awful system. Like, everyone's mad all the time. Like, of course, your brother's going to care about where you're a 22-year-old student. And he's like, how dare a family member try to figure out where you are? This is a real imposition on me, a Nazi. Like,

0:46:13 Matt: Thomas, Well, I think you missed the part where she was sweating.

0:46:15 Thomas: That's true. You know what? I retract my statement, if you is fair, yeah, no, good point, yeah,

0:46:18 Matt: Yeah,

0:46:19 Azul: And I also said freak or flip or one of those two, I'm sure.

0:46:24 Thomas: Your brother understand the situation better than you did, you

0:46:27 Azul: He did. And, has always been like, I was ready. Like was about the birth of my oldest niece, his first baby. And he was like, no, I wasn't looking at tickets and I was going to fly out and I was going get you out. Like, seemed conflicting to to me, because one of the pillars of Mormonism, right, is that families are together forever. Of the reason why things like that have no reforming them, they have to be abolished, is because you have to vilify the the people that you are doing this to in order to justify the existence of your job, you have to, you are so many instances where at work, we just like bent to each other and it's just like, can you believe that they're doing this to this person? People are, are dealing with you afterwards. Words, like the clients are dealing with you.

You tell that it's just, they're trying to fit in the lived experience of what is this absolute madness that is happening to me with how is the government, how have they invested all of this money, all of his time, all his resources resources into being the most incomprehensible, absolute sadistic people they can be. There's Like so many times when it's a government request that is absolute insanity at work.

And it's just like part of, you I explain to people, part of what you're getting a lawyer for is when the government tries to strong arm you, the attorney is like, no, you can't do that. Not what you do.

0:46:43 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely,

0:48:05 Matt: It's a lot of the job.

0:48:05 Azul: Like, I know why you can't do that. And,

0:48:07 Thomas: I think what you're saying, and, but for the lawyers, like, if the lawyers aren't there, they're just doing, basically, they're not governed by any actual, like, rules or decency. It's just what can they get away with? And then the lawyer is just there to be like, hey, reminding you, FYI, no, like, you're not supposed to do that.

0:48:25 Matt: Even our presence is enough. Well,

0:48:26 Thomas: You give us an example, Matt? What Like is going on here? What do you mean? Like a request? What you said, government request, I think was what Azul said or something. What is that?

0:48:33 Matt: I am not in not a room, when people are treating my clients the way that Azul was being treated, right? So I don't see the worst of it. I hear the stories all the time. Yeah, I think, Azul, you're talking about the administrative violence of USCIS making a ridiculous, extensive records request from somebody, right, and just show us your entire life, and it's in a case that should be pretty simple. You're talking about much more literal violence of actually just being locked up, and

0:48:46 Azul: Yeah.

0:48:57 Thomas: Asking about either, you know, any part of this.

0:48:59 Matt: No, sure. Both terrible. I mean, And that's the thing is, when we were talking about this a couple weeks ago, about administrative violence and the way that it can be just as bad and just as evil. Know, when you're sitting behind a desk and issuing out orders, rather than actually being the guy that's yelling at somebody for sweating, like let them get away with it.

0:48:59 Thomas: Yeah.

0:49:13 Thomas: You're typing up, hey, FYI, new memo policy, at people who are sweating. New office policy. And also it's Janice's birthday tomorrow, everybody. So yeah.

0:49:22 Matt: Exactly.

0:49:24 Azul: Cake in the break room.

0:49:28 Matt: Were you in custody then?

0:49:29 Azul: Was in detention center, I want to say half a day, if not more, mainly because the guy wanted me out of there because my brother would not stop calling. Like, told my brother, Yeah, you know, I really lucked out in terms of siblings. I an older brother and a younger sister, and they use an old phrase, because, you now, I'm bringing back all my Mormon language, they are the cat's pajamas. Like just

0:49:38 Thomas: Yeah.

0:49:38 Matt: That's a good lesson. Listen, did the thing here that I would always advise the family do, which is just be as annoying as possible. It really does work sometimes, and it certainly worked out for you.

0:49:59 Azul: Because I mean the guy was, he was, I remember he was wearing a salmon colored shirt and skin matched his shirt because he was so mad, he was So angry and he left the room and he left the room, the time I just started sobbing because it was like the first act of like compassion that somebody had showed me. After he left the room, the guy that was there, he was like, your mom asked me to let you call her one time because it's your birthday, and he sat me down and he's like, you have one minute. Am handcuffed, hands and feet, and my mom is on the phone. And I am just like thinking, oh, like these people in my life have so much to bring me to this country and I've disappointed them. Like all that work that they put in for nothing. I just remember feeling like the absolute weight of just that I, I disappointed my family. They

0:50:08 Thomas: That's a bad look.

0:50:52 Thomas: Then did your brother tell you you were undocumented then? I'm wondering when you fully processed that.

0:50:56 Azul: Learned after I was released and my brother was like, we need to talk.

0:50:59 Thomas: Okay. Your mom didn't did not tell you, okay.

0:51:02 Azul: No. My mom sung me happy birthday while I was handcuffed because it was so important to her that I hear happy birthday on my birthday.

0:51:09 Thomas: Hear that, but that's rough. I mean, wow. And she's not going to tell you that you're undocumented. Wow.

0:51:17 Azul: No.

0:51:17 Thomas: Know what goes into a decision like that, but that is, wow, okay, yeah, sure.

0:51:20 Azul: I be honest, I also don't know. And I, I don't know if it was stress. Like she started singing happy birthday. I'm sobbing. She didn't even finish because the minute was up and the guy hung up and he was like, I have to take you to your cell now. And I was like okay.

0:51:35 Thomas: So who knows? Yeah.

0:51:37 Azul: I just sat there for hours. I don't know how long they don't know if if it's like a feature of these spaces, but they're so cold, they're freezing. To prevent sweating, you know, government agencies, extremely anti sweat.

0:51:52 Thomas: There's a sign that's like days since last sweating in our presence. And a successful non anti -sweet detention center here.

0:52:01 Azul: Yeah, I mean, you know, you wish they took a strong, strong of a stance in, like, affirming somebody's humanity as they do against sweat, but

0:52:09 Thomas: Yeah. Got this, this story. Holy shit. I love that the movies would have us believe that, you a policeman gets mad, it's because they're like, God, this per, you got away with murder and I got to bust them. There's no, I'm not going to rest until I've been really, it's like this person's brother doesn't want them to be detained. And they have called me, listen to this. They've called me three times and I had to answer it and say, hello. And they said, don't arrest my sister. And I had TO suffer through that. That's why he's so mad. Like what, what, I don't understand. I think, like you said, Azul, it must just be be, that like need to dehumanize the people you're doing awful stuff to, you because I don't understand that anger. I don'T understand why you wouldn't be like, well, yeah, this is a 22 year old student. Their family is going to be concerned about them. Like that's going to happen. Why would I be mad at them for that? You

0:53:01 Azul: Know how else to say it, you, other person has to be bad and everything they do has to be evil in order to justify your existence. Like, it's true, like, when at Face value, when you look at it, you're like, "What in the entire hell?" Like, don't even put up with that from, like, a worker at Old Navy.

0:53:04 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:53:18 Matt: Is a concept that I think about a lot of moral injury, the idea that you participate in these systems and you become sort of, like, there's some part of you that knows you shouldn't be doing this or be part of any of it. And I feel moral injury sometimes just going to court and participating in deportation proceedings, even though I'm on the right side of them, I think. Think. Thought about this with ICE officers before, about how it's just like what you're saying, how they have to make everybody out to be the worst because it's the only way they can get through the day. And there's that moral injury that I think is very hard to come back from.

0:53:39 Thomas: Yeah. Know, reminds it really me of, honestly, I did a pretty hard time with bullying in school, with being bullied. And it really reminds me of that, where they have to turn every single thing a person does into, like, this thing. And really effective. Yep.

0:53:58 Matt: People grow up to be cops and ICE officers, to be honest. I think there's much of a difference. So were actually processed out the same day, is that right? Very fortunate.

0:54:00 Thomas: Yeah.

0:54:05 Azul: Because said, you have to annoy them. And brother absolutely did that. He you've looked at my file and can I say that?

0:54:08 Matt: Do, you do. Of course. We're

0:54:14 Azul: Looked at my pile. Had other attorneys look at my And I think the previous attorney that looked at my file before you was like, why did they let you out? And I'm like, because my brother didn't stop calling. And like you could have been considered a flight risk. People in this situation are not let out. And

0:54:33 Thomas: Well, A good point, can you tell us, uh, legally what's going on here? So, I know it's a different time, it's maybe before you were practicing in this area, but what they let her out, what did that mean exactly, what was her kind of status legally, okay?

0:54:47 Matt: Actually just at the very beginning of my career. You were arrested the month I started practicing. So, the law is not much different, but I will say that this is very important for people to understand. ICE has almost complete authority over who they want to hold or not, right? So, you can be arrested and charged with civil immigration violations, as Azul was here, but they don't have to hold you. They just usually choose to, and especially if you have a pending crime and something they consider serious. And of course, on paper, what Azul was charged with was child abuse, which sounds pretty bad.

0:54:50 Thomas: Wow. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:55:15 Matt: All you know about somebody when they're walking in the door, I think that's part of what the moral injury here is. You treat them like a child abuser. Of coarse, the child abuse statute could somebody who's done some pretty horrible stuff.

0:55:21 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, what?

0:55:26 Matt: So they can hold on to you and let an immigration judge decide whether or not to release you, or they can just release you.

0:55:31 Thomas: Do you think they knew about Azul at this point, though? Is it just suspicion that she's undocumented, or had they somehow figured that out even before Azul did, but

0:55:39 Matt: At this point, did you meet with an immigration officer to go over the notice to appear at that point, Azul?

0:55:43 Azul: I didn't get my notice to appear until six months after I was released. Least? I

0:55:43 Matt: No. Wow. Yeah, you really got it. Wow. It's a very different kind of process. And again, jurisdictions do things different ways, but for the most part, it's the same system. It's the same ICE people. It's the same law that applies. So usually what would happen is you'd be detained, you'd be given a notice to appear, which is not just a notice to appear in court, but actually details the reasons that they're going to try to deport you.

And in this case, I have Azul's notice to appear, and I've looked at it, and it's a little unusual from the cases that we see, but they did not mention in the notice to appear that she'd been charged with a crime because she's not actually deportable for that crime until she was convicted, until she would have been convicted.

So what it mentions is that she entered on that border crossing card that you're talking about with your mother on a certain date, and the border crossing guard gave you the right to be here for 30 days within 25 miles of the border, I believe. And so they basically, this document just says, you were found further from 25 miles from the border, and we know that you came in this way and you overstayed.

0:56:38 Thomas: What point would they have known that, though, because when, when she's in custody for less than 24 hours here, they don't know that for sure, do they?

0:56:46 Matt: Be able to know about your entry when you came In. They should be allowed to put that together because she came in officially with inspection. But like you said, they didn't issue a notice to appear for six months. You were not a priority. You were somebody they were that interested in. That's pretty unusual. The notice to peer is what initiates deportation proceedings. And you were very fortunate that you were able to do your deportation procedures out of custody, because that, that certainly didn't have to happen. And the judge certainly, not only at flight risk, but the judge would have had a right to find, based on the police report and the allegations in this case, that you might be a danger to the community and that maybe you're out there hurting kids, right, for all they know. So you would have to have a bond hearing. You could have lost that bond hearing, and so there's a lot of different ways this could have gone, for sure.

0:56:48 Thomas: Okay.

0:57:25 Thomas: So you released and a moment ago, Azrul, that you you still didn't know at this point that you're undocumented until a conversation with you. With your brother.

0:57:32 Azul: So So I get released, I my release was insane, so I call my best friend who calls like couple who has very, very young kids. They're think they're the Only if not one of two couples that are not Mormon that are a part of this community. And he tells them like a soul's in jail and march up and they're like, what needs to be done for this girl to be released? They'd known me for 24 hours. Absolute madness.

0:57:56 Thomas: Sorry. Sorry, who are these Are people? These some of the people you babysat for? This is a different.

0:58:00 Azul: No, No. This is like a completely couple that I'd heard about that I've gone to visit. Like, I was like, people are saying all this stuff to me and I don't understand it. And they're like, who is saying these things to you? I'd heard of them and I met them 24 hours before I got arrested. Like I just called them in a crisis and

0:58:17 Thomas: Oh, you because were hearing the weird stuff about like what you might be charged with or what the police were looking at. That's the weird step. You meant right.

0:58:25 Azul: Or giving me like warnings that I didn't understand, that I should leave the state, that I should be careful. And I was like, what does this mean? I'd had like somebody rip into me about what a terrible person I was. And, I just was like, I need to talk with somebody. I'm so sorry. I know that I don't know you. And they were like, no, you come on over. Don't worry about it. So, I meet them 24 hours before I am put in jail. I call my best friend who knows these people because this couple has taken into like just adopting the stray kids, um, that community or you know, the kids who were there without parents, a lot of people just went to their house. So I've met them 24 hours before I call my best friend. My best friend calls them. Immediately just organized on getting me out.

0:58:39 Thomas: Okay.

0:59:10 Thomas: Want to be these people. This is who I want. How do we, is there an application? How do you turn into that exact couple? Because that is, I Oh, wait, but if we have to move to Utah, I'm not doing that. Nevermind. I'm never doing that in a million years.

0:59:16 Matt: Every community needs one. No,

0:59:21 Azul: Know, you could slowly introduce coffee to, you now. You could be, You could be those

0:59:26 Thomas: I'm like tainting the town water supply with a little bit of caffeine.

0:59:28 Azul: Yeah, doing God's work. There.

0:59:31 Matt: Johnny Johnny Coffee Seed.

0:59:31 Azul: Um,

0:59:32 Thomas: Yeah. That sounds amazing. I mean, these people sound great. They just sound like, they wanted to help they they were you and and knew you I I love that oh

0:59:40 Azul: Yeah, somehow coordinated with my brother, they paid my bail. She hired my criminal attorney. I had criminal bail and I also had immigration bail, so I have two bills that had to to be paid. I

0:59:52 Matt: Me be clear that so if you were to pay the criminal bill, you'd be sent straight to ICE custody if you're in criminal custody. But once you get there, ICE has the authority to either send you an immigration judge to have the bond reviewed or to just set one themselves. They can also just release you, but they often do set one. I wasn't sure what happened in this case, but they have that authority. They just don't use it very often around here.

1:00:07 Thomas: Okay. What kind of bail are we talking? Like, you have any memory of that, Azul? Like

1:00:13 Azul: Immigration one was 5K. The other one was about 3K, maybe around 5K too. So it was like around $10,000 maybe both bails.

1:00:23 Thomas: Wow. And family just paid your bail. That's amazing.

1:00:27 Azul: Paid my criminal bail. Then they figured out my brother was trying, because my brother was just calling whoever he could, he was was like, I'm pay immigration bail, so he paid 5k and you the nightmare and the horrors in my case, there is also, you know, these absolute just thought thought I was going to spend my entire time in Custody, you I didn't know what was going on. And

1:00:32 Thomas: Sure. Yeah. Ooh, that's a good question. So Matt, is say Azul wasn't able to afford bail, which I mean, $8,000 combined roughly, I mean that's not an insignificant amount of money. Like imagine there are plenty of people who cannot pay that. Does that mean she would have been in custody for the six months that it took to do that notice to appear? Would Or have happened?

1:01:07 Matt: They expedite it if you were in custody, but she could have been through the entire proceedings. And I've seen immigration bonds set at $20,000, $40,000. It really can go that high. Usually in our cases, but there's no upper limit.

1:01:10 Thomas: Okay. What about the time? Is it the same? Because I know, like, criminal stuff, there's some time limit, right, where you can't they just can't hold you like forever, but like is immigration a little different or

1:01:26 Matt: You no right to a speedy trial because, of course, you're not charged with a crime and there's no constitutional rights at all in this process. But for their own convenience, because you're there, as they like to remind you, detained at government expense. They used to stamp that on all the documents.

1:01:32 Thomas: Oh. Yeah. Oh, thank you for picking up that that tab, government that's so nice of you. Did you ever pay him back as well?

1:01:41 Matt: Exactly, right. It's the weird kind of blamey thing of like, you're costing us money right now.

1:01:46 Thomas: Did you never pay him for, like, the the, you know, the food, and the and the freezing cell? No, okay.

1:01:49 Matt: All those tasty meals.

1:01:52 Azul: Mean, it's something that I do think about because I'm like, I paid taxes for years. I it's something I should deconstruct in therapy or something that seems like a BDSM, something to pay for your own torture in that way, I don't

1:02:07 Matt: But non -consensually, yeah.

1:02:07 Thomas: Topic for another show. That's a we'll have to cover that another time, but but mean, that's a lot of people, I'm sure, don't know. It. Yeah, you don't have a right to a speedy trial when you're not going on trial, I guess. I

1:02:09 Azul: Yeah.

1:02:09 Matt: But just Oh, yeah, sure. When you're charged with civil immigration offenses, but the thing is that the government doesn't want to pay to keep you in there indefinitely. So there is an expedited docket for people who are held in custody. So a case that could take years, and immigration deportation case can end up just taking a few months, to maybe six months, and if you appeal it, maybe you're in there another six months. But they're not going to put it on the same track.

1:02:33 Thomas: Info. I think lot of listeners wouldn't know how that works.

1:02:34 Matt: Sure.

1:02:35 Azul: I think it's really good to sort of deconstruct this because think about it, like, know that immigration is a cluster insert dolphin sound here, um, it's a mess, right? Like, Matt is really really good at what he does and is constantly like, you know, like, oh, we could pursue this. We could pursue that. He has a lot of experience and whatnot. Think about it this way, you can tell me the things that you do to get your driver's license.

It's probably one of the most mundane, like, everybody at some point in the U.S. goes through this process. But aside from those steps that you take, you go to the DMV, you have to deal with somebody who is wondering how, at the DMB, is what their one wondrous and wild life is amounting to, you are, you know, paying fees. But aside from those stuff, you can't really tell me how your license gets made. You don't know how that sausage is made, you it's a process that you do on your own. And there's tons little processes like that in the US that you're just like, oh, these are the steps. But you don't really know what goes on behind the scenes.

1:03:39 Thomas: Yeah.

1:03:49 Thomas: I you were really overestimating me if you were thinking I would know how you get your driver's license. I do not know, man. There is a lot rules. Maybe you have to drive for 16 hours with something or whatever. That is just to bolster your point. Like that's a simple, relatively simple transaction. And I don't remember what exactly what I had to do.

1:04:07 Azul: You And we yet have all these really complicated systems that in in our office, our like, office is three attorneys. Sorry, I'm talking so much about work. I hope my boss doesn't mind. Like, yeah, it's like she likes it. Um, all have different specialties. It's So all within in immigration too. Sometimes people, and it happens a lot, somebody like will like one of the attorneys for something and suddenly it's like, oh, but can they represent me in child custody? And it's, like, I understand that you enjoy your attorney, but they don't really do that. I am so sorry. And it is just, but why? Said, they each have their own specialty within in immigration. And you you seen Spirited Away? Have

1:04:19 Thomas: Still won't shut up about her job. God.

1:04:46 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Love Spirited Away. It's one of my favorite movies.

1:04:56 Azul: Okay. Immigration system is no name when he's gorging on food. No offense to no name. Love that. No Face. No Face. I believe it's No Face, the one with the white face.

1:05:05 Thomas: Yeah. I think it's No Face. Yeah. Doesn't that how he talks?

1:05:09 Azul: Eating, know that scene where he's just, just like, and eating and eating, and getting huger and out of control, immigration for you in the U.S.

1:05:13 Thomas: Yeah. Say there is a redemption story for No Face, so that's not at all like, well, maybe someday we can make the redemption story, but the redemption story will be abolition at this point is what I'm strongly in your corner of now of like, no redemption story here. I don't think we're going to get like that guy who was mad at you for sweating and he's going to have like a tearful, "you oh, it turns out I was the baddie the whole time." I d n't think that's happening.

1:05:18 Azul: Um I'm like oh oh is this what it's like to be like at a taylor swift concert exchanging best friend bracelet um um, love this for us. Now we're besties.

1:05:44 Thomas: Like so Where, right. Gotta call it there for part one. Gosh, there is so much to come in part two. Seriously, we've barely even gotten into it. I'll um get it out early for patrons. patreon.com/law. Been as I alluded to at the beginning, um, a monstrous edit but worth every second of the many seconds I put into trying to get this out, but but we learned more about not the legal nonsense of this whole thing, is a lot more law talk in part two, but also the emotional toll, the life toll that this has had on Azul in that are, again, that it's stuck with me. And I want to thank Asul so much again for sharing all this, to come.

Proceedings, family now apart. Azul ended up where she did, what it's like to try to start over, so much, that to in part two, which I suppose will have to be Monday for non -patrons. But ahead of time for patrons and wait until everybody has heard this because like stories this that just aren't told enough and are that extra bit of motivation for every one of us to keep doing everything we can and keep our energy and determination up. So with that said, thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time.

1:07:01 Clip: This podcast is a production of Opening Arguments Media, LLC, All Rights Reserved. It is produced and edited by Thomas Smith, who also provided the fabulous intro and outro music used with permission.

1:07:18 Thomas: Not sure how to intro us. You We want us to do it, Matt? Matt? Oh, no, not that part. Just the interview part.

1:07:20 Matt: Okay, I get to say it. Maybe I actually get to say it. Hi, everybody. Welcome. Oh, I'll never get to say it, that's okay.

1:07:29 Thomas: You should, you should just for fun.

1:07:32 Matt: No, it's all right. That's your job. Thomas, it

1:07:34 Thomas: The one thing I do, Matt. You can't take it away from me. If you'd say it, then what do I do? Why do I work here? I don't know. 911 help. I'm under arrest. Under

1:07:37 Matt: Is

1:07:43 Azul: Mostly meth yeah