DOD116: Should Men Pay For Dates?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Tom: Dear Old Dads, the podcast that'll fight you for the check. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:37 Eli: I mean, I will fight you for the check, it's true. We had to declare a truce with Cecil because he brought a sword to dinner once, so that is accurate.

0:00:46 Tom: Yeah, Cecil and Heath really got into it.

0:00:48 Thomas: And I will pay any check, but I won't fight people for it. I'm not, it's stupid. I'm sorry. I'm Not Doing That. It's a silly ritual. Just pay the check. Just grab the check, just grab it.

0:00:58 Tom: Just whoever, whoever.

0:01:00 Thomas: I'll pay it. I don't know.

0:01:00 Tom: Hey, I was curious to ask you guys, Before we launch into that, we've got a story to read to launch today's episode. It comes enough, it comes from Yahoo Finance advice column, column weirdly enough.

0:01:02 Thomas: Ooh, can't wait. Yeah.

0:01:09 Tom: I know, but I am curious, has anybody on a date ever paid for your date? Go on. Dutch. But has anybody actually paid for your date when you've gone out on a day, has

0:01:16 Thomas: Wait, wait, what? Ever? Yeah. I mean, like, Lydia pretty early on wanted to do something because I think I had paid for everything thus far. Like, and then so she paid for, like a New Year's. I think she might have booked us the hotel room for New Year. The first when we met, like early. And paid for that. But other than that, I don't know. Not really. I haven't gone on a lot of traditional dates.

0:01:40 Eli: No, I don't think so, no.

0:01:39 Tom: Eli? Yeah, I, it's funny because we're going to read this thing from Yahoo Finance, and it's, it's funny, and it, ridiculous, and we've got probably lots of, lots of great shit to talk about from it, but I, I did think it was interesting because I was thinking about it ahead of time, and I was like, well, can't think of a single time I've gone Dutch or had someone pay for my date.

0:01:59 Thomas: So here's the thing I'll throw in. I think we're in a bit of a different world now, and I don't know, feel free to tell me if this is all MRA nonsense that I've picked up.

0:02:00 Tom: Yeah. Well, that's why I was asking you guys

0:02:08 Thomas: Well, well, not only that, generationally people now are way different, because what happens now is with the apps. So, like, imagine if you will, and again, if this MRA up from Reddit, please tell me, but it seems to be pretty mainstream. This feeling that, like... Because Tinder is... Or whatever, the apps are such a constant flow of like bad dates, didn't work, whatever. Dudes are like, I will go broke if I have to pay for every single date with someone from Tinder that doesn't work out. And I think there's a kind of a different mindset now, but I'm not sure.

0:02:08 Tom: Because generationally we're different, right? Like, I'm 10 years older, It'll be It'll interesting because I've also, I've got a study to talk about that'll dovetail in with this, but before we get into the story, I'm curious if there's anything worse than fighting for the check. Eli, would

0:02:39 Eli: Oh, and that would be... I love...

0:02:52 Thomas: Eli not paying attention that we're doing a show. Yeah.

0:02:54 Eli: No, it was thrown because I love fighting for the check. There's nothing that makes me happier than fighting for... Oh, fighting... Dude, Dude, when someone's face, when you've won the last couple of times and you get to the restaurant early and give them their check and they're like, you got to let me pay this time. And you're like absolutely. And then the person just comes over and you start signing. There's no better feeling. There's nobody. It's how ancient warriors must have felt vanquishing their enemies.

0:02:58 Thomas: Yeah. Eli's favorite activity.

0:03:22 Tom: Right.

0:03:23 Eli: Except you're doing a nice thing. So that's why I didn't understand the comparison to

0:03:24 Thomas: Yeah. Leave it to Eli to find a way to do a nice thing in the most asshole way possible, like in a way that still is cruel somehow, I don't know how they've

0:03:28 Eli: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And that is the auto ads. The auto ads are bad. And sometimes I found this out. We actually got an email today. Sometimes our auto ads are just like asshole podcasts about like vaccines and bullshit.

0:03:44 Thomas: Ruined Eli's brain. Oh, nice.

0:03:53 Eli: But hey, we don't control that because they lie about what kind of podcast they are. And so think of it as a chance for them to waste their money on you, a smarter person. But just in case you want to skip those advertisements for fucking horse dewormer or whatever, you can head over to patreon.com/dearolddads, where you'll get a commercial-free extended version of every single episode when Tom can be bothered to join us. You can get all that plus a monthly bonus over at patreon.

0:03:53 Thomas: Oh, I know, it's the best. Hmm.

0:04:20 Tom: Okay. I can almost always

0:04:24 Eli: Com forward slash deer old dads.

0:04:24 Tom: Be bothered. So I'm gonna read the story in a second, but one other quick question, because it just occurred to me, have you guys ever gone out on a work lunch or work dinner and the boss, or you're the boss, you pay for it, and then everybody thanks you for buying lunch, but you didn't buy lunch, man.

0:04:36 Thomas: Yeah.

0:04:46 Tom: The Company bought lunch, the First time this happened, and I went out, like, we went out to a nice dinner or lunch or something. It was at a nice restaurant. I'll admit that it was certainly at a very nice restaurant, and like the boss takes you out and everybody's like, oh, thanks so much for picking up the check. Thanks for lunch. And it was like, he didn't fucking do anything, like he didn't buy the lunch.

0:04:46 Eli: The company bought lunch. Yeah. Yeah.

0:04:47 Thomas: Yeah. Company about last year, yeah.

0:05:05 Thomas: What's the appropriate response to that? You, you know?

0:05:08 Tom: I don't know. It just felt weird. Like, yeah, like he bought us lunch with a credit card that he doesn't pay. Like,

0:05:11 Thomas: Yeah.

0:05:16 Eli: I've never had an employer buy me lunch. I, I very specifically, you know, I worked for a very, very rich guy who was the head of the company.

0:05:18 Thomas: Really? Oh, wow. Yeah,

0:05:19 Tom: I was going to say, you've worked for big companies.

0:05:25 Thomas: You mentioned that.

0:05:25 Eli: Yeah. He Um, would never buy us lunch. He would always, he What he would do. He would be like, uh, when does everyone eat lunch? And I'd be like noon. And he'd be be like great, let's let everyone go to lunch and then we'll do the meeting at one. Every time when he and I would go, it would be just him, me, and like a couple other important people in the company, he would be like, let's meet up for drinks. And then he would be like, I'm actually in my room, what soda do you like? And I'd be like, Jesus Christ, man, I

0:05:25 Thomas: Yeah? Even? Okay. Wow. Sorry.

0:05:31 Tom: That's insane.

0:05:43 Tom: He wouldn't buy?

0:05:58 Thomas: Oh,

0:05:58 Eli: Don't even drink, I wasn't even gonna order an alcoholic beverage, just sitting on the other bed in his hotel room, holding a vending machine Snapple, being like, uh -huh. So these are the quarterly reports.

0:06:03 Tom: Holy shit. Holy shit, that's insane,

0:06:09 Thomas: My God. Even the state of California for like a certain level of manager has like a little deduction you can do. You just most the obvious thing to do. Like, Like, it's good for kind of everybody. They just, you is like twice a month, you can buy your team a meal and then, like, you can declare it and then you will get reimbursed from it. Like, even the state, you know, like the government is like, well, that is a good idea. Like, might as well just do that, team building and all, you know, whatever.

0:06:15 Tom: Yeah, right.

0:06:38 Tom: That's what I mean, yeah. No longer have an office, I do a lot of my meetings if they're one -on -ones as lunches or breakfast meetings because they like it. We don't do a whole lot of one -on -one meeting, you or I mean, heck even a group meeting sometimes I'll just be like, yeah, just reserve the back room. If they've got one at a restaurant and we'll do a, we'll bring a whiteboard in and like do do a thing there. Cause I don't have a physical office anymore.

0:06:39 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.

0:06:39 Eli: Oh.

0:07:00 Thomas: Eat the whiteboard, yeah.

0:07:01 Tom: Eat the whiteboard. Yeah. Eat the Whiteboard. All right. So let me read this from Yahoo finance guys. This is, fucking this bonkers. I am a 35 year old who works in it and gets paid a healthy six figure salary. Then they say the salary $140 ,000 a year.

0:07:13 Thomas: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

0:07:15 Eli: Okay, don't say six figures. If that number is a hundred, you piece of shit.

0:07:17 Thomas: I know. Well, yeah, like Like, healthy six -figure would imply something. If you just say six figures, then you're thinking, well, that's 100 ,000.

0:07:26 Eli: Some war towards the average of the numbers that have six figures in them, Thomas.

0:07:27 Thomas: Yeah.

0:07:30 Tom: I In Chicago, and date a lot over the years, I've been on Tinder, Match,

0:07:33 Eli: This you you have to tell us if it's you.

0:07:33 Thomas: It's Tom. Yeah. You have to tell us.

0:07:35 Eli: It's Like being a cop. I

0:07:34 Tom: Okay. No, This is not me, no. This Chicago, I date a lot over the years, I've been on Tinder, Match, OkCupid, and Bumble. And And when I tell you I've had a lot of dates, I've had a LOT. Maybe 40 or more in the last couple of years. Not at all for dinner. Recently went on a dinner date at a Mexican restaurant, one of my favorites. Our total bill came to around $190. We drank cocktails and a lot of wine, so I offered to pay the check. My companion, a 30 -year -old public relations representative, insisted on paying. In fact, she slipped away to her credit card on her way to the restroom.

0:08:06 Thomas: It Eli. Eli, if it was Eli, you have to say it. You have tell us, did Tom and Eli go on a date, everybody?

0:08:09 Eli: Was wearing a wig

0:08:12 Tom: It didn't work out, we're probably making the same amount of money. Given her lifestyle, she spent a week in Maroos in January. I don't know if I pronounced that right, but I feel like I should pay, given that I chose the restaurant and it was our first date. Is it emasculating to allow a woman to pick up the dinner check? I felt humiliated, honestly. We got along well enough for a second date, even though I would describe her as quite a type A personality. There's confident, confident, they're super confident, and then there's this woman.

0:08:13 Thomas: I don't know what

0:08:13 Eli: For you, maybe me,

0:08:40 Tom: That's an attractive quality, but as my father would say, everything in moderation.

0:08:31 Eli: Humiliated. I hate Women, why?

0:08:35 Thomas: That is. Morons. Oh, my God. I'm so glad this is fake. I'm sure. I'm glad this isn't real. Yeah.

0:08:46 Tom: I know, this is so bad. Would also say, you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. I felt wrong -footed. A man should pay at least on the first date. Am I wrong?

0:08:57 Thomas: You'd also say, why not this male suicide rate? No one talks about that.

0:09:04 Tom: So I saw that from Yahoo Finance, and I'm not going to read their answers. I wanted to get at your thoughts, gentlemen, on this insane, insane fucking question.

0:09:13 Thomas: Yeah. Best case scenario, fake. Best case scenarios, fake, yeah.

0:09:16 Eli: Is Is Anyone going to Yahoo for financial advice, right?

0:09:20 Tom: Why is anybody going to Yahoo Finance for dating and personal advice?

0:09:20 Thomas: I think at this point, those finance sites just exist to be memed really hard once they say, stop drinking a latte a month and then you can buy a mansion. Like that's really, right? I don't think they do anything legitimate? I think they only do that, don't they? It's

0:09:25 Eli: Right. Yeah, it's really, all there for companies just play hot potato with them, and then, you know, they They get screenshotted, and then they move on to the next company,

0:09:43 Thomas: Always just, here's a sample budget of a, you know, well-to-do 30-year-old couple, and I'll be like, yeah, yeah,

0:09:49 Eli: $943 ,000 a minute, saving money by composting their coffee grounds. Yeah. Fellas, is it gay to have a woman like you and enjoy your company?

0:09:51 Tom: Is it

0:09:52 Thomas: Exactly, I will never understand this. I will never understand it. I will understand this as long as I live. Yeah, oh,

0:10:06 Tom: Emasculating?

0:10:08 Eli: To defend this guy. I want you to defend him. I want him to defend his guy, right?

0:10:09 Tom: Oh, Jesus.

0:10:10 Eli: Because this guy, because hear me out, right, guy sucks, right. Right? This whole thing reeks of suck, right? I've been on quite a few dates, almost 40. Really? Why don't you check the Excel spreadsheet?

0:10:10 Thomas: Really? Okay, yeah, Okay. Yeah.

0:10:11 Tom: All right. Right.

0:10:23 Eli: You absolutely have. You,

0:10:24 Thomas: Definitely made, yeah, for sure, that's

0:10:21 Tom: Almost almost 40 in a few years is not a lot of dates, man. That's very few dates. Like there's a hunt. If it's two years, it's one hundred and four weeks.

0:10:28 Thomas: Yeah, it's actually not that many

0:10:30 Eli: But none of them agreed to be my bride. So, time wasted, if you will. Yeah. So this fucking nozzle gets to this thing and the first thing, they sit down and he's like, "So I don't know if you have a crypto portfolio." And she's like, "Margaritas?" Margaritas. She drinks 19 margaritos, leaves her car in the parking lot so that she can Uber home and possibly forget what it was like to be in this man's company. But she knows, she knows, there is nothing more certain than this gentleman equates a $190 check to you owing him sexual intercourse.

And so she goes and pays the check, so that he will not even entertain the thought of getting to have sexual intercourse with her. And I get, I get it. I bet if they had had a vending machine by the restroom that was like, "For you, put a hundred dollar bill in here, we'll go bludgeon your date and he'll lose the memory, he can't even jerk off to you later," she'd have paid it twice. She'd been like, "Give him an extra just in case." And then he was like, "Oh, I, I'm afraid I have been affronted, young lady." And she was like, "Oh my god, I made the right decision."

0:11:01 Tom: Yep.

0:11:13 Thomas: Yes, yeah, And then apparently there's a second date and she's like, "Oh, we should do this again." For? No, it said there was, wasn't there?

0:11:47 Eli: Nope. Absolutely not I promise you Here's

0:11:49 Thomas: I thought the story said that

0:11:51 Eli: What I promise. Him? He was like, "So, uh, shall there be another one of these?" And she was like, "Absolutely, you have my Instagram, um, just go ahead and like one of my pictures and I'll see it."

0:11:58 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, I was just gonna say she would like to do it again, just totally fucking, like, this clearly emasculated him, let's run it back, yeah.

0:12:08 Eli: Continue cucking him. Yeah, am

0:12:10 Thomas: Exactly. Yeah,

0:12:12 Tom: I, even the idea that somebody would ask somebody else if they've been emasculated, like, a level of insecurity that is now like inception level deep where you don't even know you're, you're yeah, have I been emasculated?

0:12:25 Thomas: Yeah,

0:12:23 Eli: I sad, dear, How do I feel about this? Should we restart culture over because I don't know what feelings I'm feeling?

0:12:30 Thomas: Yeah, Well,

0:12:29 Tom: Because that that is, this actual question is, it emasculating to allow a woman to pick up the dinner check? I don't know, man. If you found it emosculating, it was for you, that's a weird position for you to hold, you should do a lot of soul searching about that, man, that's fucked up

0:12:50 Eli: Now, right.

0:12:50 Thomas: You know, that's really revealing though, because it just shows how much of this stuff is just the stupid pressure of others that we feel we have, you know, even being there, like, and again, assuming this is real, just taking it as real for fun, he's being there being like, "Oh, I think I'm supposed to feel insulted in my manhood about this," and he wants to go check to make sure. Imagine being like, wouldn't you just be like, "Oh, I might feel insulted. Oh, but I don't, so that's fine, like, I'll just not." Instead he's like, "Oh wait, wait, hold on. I think I should be really insulted. I'd better check with the internet.

0:12:52 Tom: Yeah, yeah, Yes, exactly.

0:13:20 Eli: Imagine thinking you need to check on any other emotions. Am I aroused, dear Abby?

0:13:21 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, it Is that what this means? My pants either got tight or I'm into it.

0:13:30 Eli: Or do I just have to pee? Please answer quickly because I may pee or cum myself. I'm an adult who will vote.

0:13:34 Thomas: Hmm.

0:13:42 Tom: It. And the second question, just to, just to, a man should pay at least on the first date. Am I wrong, and this, I did out of curiosity, because I, I have paid for every date I've gone out on, and it's been implicitly expected, and I did kind of Google around to see about how often do women ask men out, because I think the general rule, when you read through a lot of the advice on this kind of topic, is whoever, sort of, like, reframe it, but it's a bullshit reframing.

0:14:09 Thomas: Yeah.

0:14:09 Tom: So the reframing is, is, well, whoever asks the person out should pay. So I was like, oh, okay. Well, but how often do women actually ask men out? And it's about 7% of the time. Like overwhelmingly, what?

0:14:13 Thomas: Yeah, sure. Yeah Yeah,

0:14:13 Eli: Right.

0:14:22 Eli: They ain't asking me out, you know what I'm saying? Not an experience. I'm not, I'm not talking about you with that sweet, sweet bicycle butt and beautiful lady, I Thomas Smith over here, but I'm staying here down in the trenches, here down the trenches where we grew up being told we had a great personality and we're funny. Ain't it, we ain't included in that seven percent. Let me tell you

0:14:32 Thomas: I just

0:14:42 Tom: Look, well, 93% of people aren't included, right? Like, so it's it is still a social expectation that men are going to ask ladies out. It's not the other way around, right. It is an overwhelming difference. And that does mean that overwhelmingly you're going to pay every

0:14:56 Thomas: Want to point out your math error there, Tom. It's not 7 % of men. It just means they're asking Jon Hamm out every single time. And if you wait it, yeah, if you take the total number of dates, those times he was asked is 7 % of all dates. Yeah.

0:15:04 Tom: Single time. Right, right.

0:15:03 Eli: There Yeah, Thomas, I know for a fact that he, then, right, listens to of this show, and he is so happy that you pointed out that error. Right now, he's, Steve, I think he's going to become a patron just for that correction. I think this is how we get him. It

0:15:20 Thomas: Yeah.

0:15:22 Tom: You got me. You got me, but the social expectation still very broadly is that men are going to ask women out, and then men are going pay. That is the social expectations, but what I find fascinating is that this guy doesn't even understand, if that does get flipped on its head, he doesn't understand how he's even allowed to feel within his own sense of masculinity about it. It's not that he was aggrieved, it's that he's not even sure if he was agreeved.

0:15:42 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, well, It's all a construct, it's just, he, he doesn't know. Oh, I, I, this is all construct and I'm not sure how the construct works here. Hey, everybody, help me out. This bullshit masculinity, I forget how it goes here. Am I mad?

0:15:57 Tom: Right,

0:16:00 Eli: Look, let's not be bitter. Like, for a second, let's assume, right, we live in a universe where someone actually liked this gentleman enough that they wanted to treat him to dinner. Hard as that that may be to imagine, imagine what a wonderful feeling that should cause in you that he's not experiencing because of what a douchebag he is. That would be like if he got a birthday present, but grew up hearing that presents were for puppies. And he was like, dear Yahoo pets advice. Am I a dog? I don't cause

0:16:00 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, it's absolutely true. I mean, like, men are victims of patriarchy, 100%, like, real, though, like, that's, it's sad. I mean, it is sad that as a whole, like, why are you dealing with any of this unnecessary bullshit you're putting on yourself, you know?

0:16:35 Tom: Yeah, oh,

0:16:51 Eli: Here's the thing, right? Think a sugar sugar mama, which is often the term, and I know not everyone likes it. I would think that would be a delightful thing to do. I love a mama.

0:17:00 Tom: What?

0:16:55 Thomas: Oh, my God. You you and I, oh, can we find a wealthy, okay, Eli. You and I. And

0:17:04 Eli: Mention on the air that people can fuck me for money on a regular basis.

0:17:08 Thomas: Eli, are you down to be a triad where we have one sugar mommy rich enough to take care of? OK, good. Yeah. Whatever involves me not editing 400 hours a day. That's all I that's all I want.

0:17:20 Tom: What?

0:17:20 Thomas: Oh,

0:17:14 Eli: Whatever she wants, it's fine. I say, I have some of my students who are in sugar relationships and I, I can't speak to them because it is not a thing of my generation. I am told that it is much more common. The I went to my boss, this is so bad. So first time, one of my student is a young man who is, this was years ago, who is gay.

0:17:35 Thomas: Really? Mm-hmm.

0:17:44 Eli: He had a sugar daddy situation going on. And the only way I had had heard of that was like code for prostitution, and so I went to my boss in the department and was like, how do we get him resources? Like, how can I help? Like, and she was like, I mean, I don't think that's I think it's just like an older guy he's dating who buys him stuff. And I was like, but he's a sugar like, like a fucking grandpa, I was like, but it's a sugar daddy, I looked it up and yeah

0:17:45 Thomas: Oh. Yeah, Eli's got Roxanne going in his head in like just.

0:18:11 Eli: Exactly, dude, I don't want him to have to turn on the red light. And she was like, I think you need to relax, but like, I now had multiple students write about and talk about being these relationships, uh, at least from their own reporting consensually, and it sounds fucking awesome. Now I want to be clear, if anyone has had this and it's been bad and the power dynamics have been I'm talking about me, okay?

0:18:15 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah yeah of course. Yeah Yeah exactly.

0:18:34 Eli: I'm telling you about me, who has all the privilege and all the patriarchy on my side. Sugar mama dumb sounds fantastic. I not be emasculated by it and

0:18:43 Thomas: Yep. Yep. Eli is talking about only him and me who's also in this marriage. Yes.

0:18:48 Eli: We're speaking for ourselves.

0:18:49 Thomas: And we are. Oh, Eli, all day. We're going to do little things together. We could dress alike. Oh! She likes us to dress alike! Fine.

0:18:50 Eli: Yeah, we're dressed alike. Think she yeah, absolutely.

0:18:58 Thomas: Whatever. Who cares? She's paying the bills. I don't give a shit. Oh.

0:18:58 Eli: Which, whatever, she wants. I

0:19:02 Thomas: Eli, we have time to play video games, you and I, now. We have time! She wants us to!

0:19:05 Eli: Probably wants us to, she probably want

0:19:07 Thomas: She thinks it's cute.

0:19:07 Eli: Us to do like a Mario

0:19:08 Thomas: Oh. She thinks that's cute!

0:19:08 Eli: Card tournament, yeah, I or something. I would love that, that sounds so good for me now, Tom. Tom, from your laughter, I am guessing here that this is not a product that Daddy Issues LLC can offer for its entire cast. Why are you wrong?

0:19:10 Thomas: Yeah. Oh...

0:19:13 Tom: Yeah.

0:19:23 Tom: No, yeah, even I was single, there is no world where I would have entered into any kind of a transactional relationship like that. Like, is wildly fantastically unappealing to me.

0:19:35 Thomas: Crazy, yeah, yeah,

0:19:36 Eli: Crazy. It's fucking nuts. Don't even know what those words mean, Tom. I don't even know. I know we're supposed to bounce back and forth here, but I'm just like, no, fuck you. Wrong.

0:19:42 Thomas: Yeah,

0:19:47 Tom: No, way, no way, way, like, none of that is appealing at all. All of that makes you way too vulnerable. I wouldn't even consider the thought of approaching anything like that, not with a thousand-foot pole. You

0:19:58 Eli: I've never felt less vulnerable in a relationship. I would never feel more free.

0:20:00 Thomas: I can always start working again, Nah, I can always start again,

0:20:04 Tom: You gotta keep working. You have to know, you have to keep working the whole time. It, like, it doesn't alleviate any pressure. All it does is make you at at the mercy and largesse of somebody who transactionally has decided that they want your company today, and they may decide tomorrow they don't.

0:20:18 Eli: If you, if by working you mean my expertise at analingus, Tom, well then, hi -ho, hi, ho, it's off to work I go.

0:20:23 Thomas: Resume.

0:20:23 Tom: Yeah, like, what are you going to put on your resume? Let's say it lasts four years, and you're able to like, yeah, like,

0:20:30 Thomas: For the oh, for the next sugar mama. Yeah, I'll get a reference. I'll assume she'll give Eli and I a good reference.

0:20:35 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:20:37 Tom: And then you're you're going to age out of desirability, of course, and then at some point, you're gonna have, yeah, this long gap in your resume.

0:20:40 Thomas: Ooh, that is a good point. Hmm.

0:20:44 Tom: You won't have built any skills. Somebody can throw you to the curb at any time. They're it's terribly vulnerable.

0:20:45 Thomas: Eli, He brings up a good point. Eli we're unionizing. We, are happy to make sacrifices now for long, long-term though. We need a 401k. I'm just saying like Like they've, yeah.

0:20:51 Eli: We we need a sugar baby union, yes.

0:21:02 Thomas: Matching contributions.

0:20:56 Tom: Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, me, it's insanely vulnerable, wildly crazily vulnerable, maybe if you're very, very young for a very short period of time.

0:21:03 Thomas: Yeah. Matching contribution would be she puts in some money for the 401k, and then she gives me a 20 to also put into the 401K.

0:21:14 Tom: Right, yeah. But yeah, you know, do you your own sugar, sugar mama relationship, but

0:21:22 Eli: The rest of this episode just advertising my sugar baby availability, my hours.

0:21:27 Thomas: Yeah. Well, wait, in California, you're not going to get fucked up as long as, you know, as long as there's a ring, which I don't know how that'll work with the three of us, Eli, we'll figure it out. But, like, you know, we're going to get half the whatever if we age out of them wanting us, right?

0:21:39 Eli: That's right. Oh, I didn't even consider marriage. I was just thinking like a straight transactional be there on a Thursday, but we

0:21:40 Tom: Oh, Oh, yeah. Now, now that's the thing.

0:21:42 Thomas: No fault divorce. Yeah. Well, Well, brings Tom up a good point of longevity. Like, we got to have a plan. We got to Have a 30 -year plan. We got, you Know, like we got To be strategic about it. We don't want to be left hung out to dry.

0:21:53 Tom: Oof.

0:21:53 Eli: Gotta be strategic, we gotta have a Bitcoin portfolio, and that's why we've got to write to this young man who makes well into the six figures, I think

0:21:55 Thomas: Yeah. Well, well into the $101 ,000.

0:22:03 Tom: He's had as many as 40 dates in the last three or four years. So, yeah,

0:22:04 Thomas: Yeah.

0:22:06 Eli: He's gonna know his way around a mature woman's rectum

0:22:06 Tom: Yeah. Oh,

0:22:10 Thomas: But if, if, I, okay, if I, it's a little different now. I've got a bunch of, you know, work that I care about and probably would still do, any blah blah blah, but um, If I was 23 and I had met someone who was making good money and they were like, fucking you, your dreams, we don't need, I mean, you can work if you want, you don't work if you don't want, because, I whoever this mystery woman is, make a lot of money, I'd be like, oh, that is so fucking great, you know, I'm going to do, I'm going to just play music all day, I will just go, I will play, me, I will still pursue things, and maybe they would be things that would turn into money someday, but like, I would just have the freedom to not feel like, well, don't have time to do that because work, don't time to that because I would pursue other things that were like really fulfilling to me.

0:22:18 Tom: My

0:22:39 Eli: I'll will

0:22:40 Tom: God.

0:22:54 Eli: This is an interesting conversation that Anna and I have had, obviously not the whether or not I should be a sugar baby conversation, because She's seen my profile on Seeking Arrangements. And she agrees I am coming on too strong. No, but one of the conversations that Anta and I had about her being a full -time mom, and before that just not working, right, because I was making enough money to support us, is like, Anna, Anna, Thomas would fill their life with stuff, right? Like, Anna is many times as busy, if not busier, than I am with her own, like, music career and hosting jams and doing gigs, like the stuff she does through self-motivation alone is so incredibly impressive to me. I cannot emphasize how much I would spend the rest of my life playing Nintendo, like would.

0:23:00 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:23:42 Thomas: I would play a lot of Nintendo. Don't get me wrong.

0:23:45 Eli: Never.

0:23:45 Thomas: I do both.

0:23:46 Eli: Do, and like the idea of like, but what would you do? I would, I would sit in a chair, I would occasionally I would go to the bathroom, I guess, would it be in the chair? Sometimes there were no consequences, it depends on whether or not it made her mad, like that is the level of, yeah.

0:23:52 Tom: Right.

0:24:04 Thomas: Jokes Aside, there are people whose mental health would do not work like this, and that might be me. Like, maybe I'm wrong about myself. It might be that like, I, if I tried this out, it would be like, ah, I can't deal with it, cause I need to feel like I have, you honestly, um, was Lydia for a while. Like, she didn't have a job early on in our relationship, and I did, cause she had just gotten out of school, you know, and, and was, you know, she wasn't dealing with it that well. And like, it's tough that there was, Lydia could have left her job a long time ago to come work for the company. Um, she, I was very worried about her not getting fulfillment, not getting interaction, not, you know, like there are people who I think need that structure, and honestly more power to, my mom had the hardest time, time retiring, like, she, she retired and then she went back to work and then she, like, she just, she cannot stop moving, she cannot, she needs to be in that, kind of thing doesn't work for everybody, you know.

0:24:50 Eli: No, I, I do get it. I And, I mean, all joking aside, I, we were actually talking about it today, like, I am overworked, but when I don't have work, I fill the time, right. I'm like, oh no, I'll help with your show, or I'll do this thing, or I'll organize a bunch of, like, for the last month I've spent all my free time organizing a giant hard drive of files that I have, it's like three terabytes worth of magic stuff.

0:24:59 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:25:12 Thomas: Make sure you get the right cable for that, by the way, I don't.

0:25:15 Eli: Exactly. Well, you know, some of us, some of us are in the cloud, T-Dog, okay, some of us are in the cloud. But like It's

0:25:20 Thomas: You just said hard drive. I don't know, what, come on.

0:25:23 Eli: An online hard drive. No, but the point is, would I, yeah, I fill that time no matter what. So I think it's like, what would you fill your time with?

0:25:24 Thomas: Oh. Okay, yeah. God. I get to, I would have gotten to play Elden Ring, though, never got to play that, probably never will, that came out, I was like, that's a game I would love to play. Okay.

0:25:39 Eli: It's not that good.

0:25:40 Thomas: Okay, well, then save me, save me two boobless hours, or whatever, classic Family Guy quote about Citizen Kane. Anyway, god, yes.

0:25:44 Tom: Yeah.

0:25:47 Eli: Well, not to get too like into the like what it's like to be a creator, which I know people find profoundly boring. But like there's also whenever you do something, there's something in the back of your head that's like well, I should monetize this, right? I shouldn't play video games unless I'm going to stream, right?

0:26:00 Thomas: Oh god, uh, yes, a hundred percent.

0:26:04 Eli: Because people would like me to stream. And so I can't really do this.

0:26:04 Thomas: Yep. God. What is that Yeah.

0:26:07 Eli: And yet because one like lotto winners. So every game of chance we're walking around being like, I mean, I should probably also go play craps because I won the lotto. So maybe I just, every time I do a thing, should try doing these very long odds things. And I think people tend to stretch themselves thin because of it.

0:26:13 Thomas: Yeah. Yep. Oh.

0:26:28 Tom: I will say as somebody who's a part time creator and a full time like wage earner, like if

0:26:34 Thomas: Is that your job title? Okay. I've always wondered what he does. WW

0:26:36 Eli: Yeah.

0:26:37 Tom: Even never. It's like Matthew from Friends, like nobody will ever know. But like, even if all of our shows quintupled tomorrow night, I wouldn't quit my regular job. I would never dream of quitting. That sort of like vulnerability.

0:26:41 Eli: You're gonna overdose but

0:26:41 Thomas: Yeah.

0:26:54 Eli: That shouldn't stop you from supporting the show over at patreon.com. I'm

0:26:55 Thomas: All

0:26:59 Tom: I just wouldn't. I would be terrified to not have that backstop, personally. Like, and that's like the thing, like those transactional, I think about Haley a lot in, in the sense that she is in the since that she doesn't work full time at a job, right, so she doesn't have that, she hasn't now for a long time, and so I am happy to provide for her, to provide for the household, but I also fully recognize that that is like a deeply vulnerable position that she's in, and that anybody who relies on the largesse of somebody else in that way puts themselves in an incredibly vulnerable position that gets more vulnerable as time goes on because your resume becomes less current and less dated. You have a big gap that employers don't like to see when they're interviewing. Your skill sets grow less useful because they're less updated.

That like transactional sugar baby stuff feels more vulnerable than that because there's nothing emotionally deep that underlies it it's just like yeah well you if I'm the sugar daddy or whatever it's like yeah I got a sugar baby and you know that's great but then something something maybe next week I decide I want a different sugar baby or you know oh the stock market went down and I'm just gonna like stop having a sugar Baby for a while because now

0:27:08 Eli: Glad Yeah.

0:27:28 Eli: Absolutely. You're

0:28:13 Thomas: Right.

0:28:13 Tom: Now, I just don't want to cut back, you know, but

0:28:13 Eli: Doing your budget at home. I think I gotta cut back one of my sugar babies. Yeah, I, um, Well,

0:28:19 Tom: They of for real, though, like that's a true because there's nothing deep that undergirds that relationship. It's just a transactional moment.

0:28:27 Thomas: Well, First of all, how dare you. Secondly, I, I think that there's a way of looking at it, though. Well, no, I mean, I'm, look at the position Eli and Anna are in, mean, it would be weird to be like, well, there's nothing deep undergirding that relationship because Eli is the breadwinner, you know, it's like it doesn't have to just be a

0:28:30 Tom: You know, Haley and I are in the same exact position, right? Like Haley is.

0:28:43 Thomas: Yeah it doesn't have to just have to

0:28:45 Tom: That's what I was putting out.

0:28:45 Thomas: Be a sugar baby, whatever, like there is

0:28:48 Eli: Anna would never do a podcast with me, this, yeah, I

0:28:50 Tom: that'S what I'm describing is different about a sugar baby sugar daddy relationship and a marriage, right. At least has an emotional undergirding that everybody has decided to trust. There's a courting process and a getting to know you process and a trust process.

0:29:03 Thomas: I Okay, let out on this, I worry that there's a bit of bias sneaking in, in that all I'm described, maybe I've been in the wrong conversation, but all I've been thinking about is just the reverse of the traditional gender role. So

0:29:15 Tom: Oh, I was thinking of an actual sugar baby, sugar mama relationship.

0:29:19 Thomas: But why, like, if we're just talking about like what

0:29:22 Tom: That's what you said.

0:29:23 Eli: I was thinking about of the transactional Seeking Arrangements, Craigslist based, uh,

0:29:27 Tom: Oh, right.

0:29:29 Thomas: Sure, sure, earlier, yeah, but, but I've been trying to bring it back to like a, if different question, let me clarify, Tom, how would you feel about merely just being in the opposite position, being the Anna in the Eli-Anna, you know, that's not, it's you still feel that same pressure to constantly, you grind, you grind, or can, could you be like, well, I'm in a fulfilling marriage that where I just am not the breadwinner.

0:29:34 Tom: Oh. I missed it. Yeah

0:29:35 Eli: Please don't. Oh, Yeah. Yeah. If Hailey won the lotto tomorrow. Yeah.

0:29:54 Thomas: Yeah, exactly.

0:29:55 Tom: Um, I don't know, I've never not worked, I don't know how my mental health would be, I think I could, I think I have enough things that I love to do outside of work that I could keep my mind occupied well enough

0:30:09 Thomas: Like work, for example. I am just kidding. To your head, Tom. One example right now. Go. Go.

0:30:09 Tom: Yeah

0:30:13 Eli: What are the things you like, that aren't work, name a thing that doesn't work.

0:30:14 Thomas: No, getting. Spreadsheets, shit.

0:30:17 Tom: I I like to write my book, I guess I've got a book idea I'd like to work on, I'd like to write my book, I would definitely spend more time pursuing my fitness related activities for sure. I don't know if that counts as work, but I do love it, it's something that I enjoy doing and would spend time really dedicated to

0:30:17 Thomas: Fucking budgets. No.

0:30:34 Eli: Tom rides a bike like a little lad. That's why he has to call it a fitness-related activity so you won't laugh at him as he rings his little bell on his little bicycle like a Victorian child Out to get a giant lollipop.

0:30:47 Thomas: You could

0:30:43 Tom: Well that's got one giant wheeled bike what is that thing, I've got, a velocipede, a giant one-wheeled bicycle with the a tiny wheel on the back, but I would do shit like that. There's I, a variety of hobbies that I've enjoyed. I like to cook. I think I would get more deeply into that, take classes around that. I could easily spend my time, but all of that stuff would be in pursuit of like, don't know, some, some betterment, some like version of self -betterment. I wouldn't know how to like do otherwise, but yeah, I could do that. Yeah. And I would trust that. I would absolutely trust that if it was Haley, I Would trust that tomorrow. No problem. Nah,

0:30:51 Thomas: Yeah, yeah,

0:30:53 Eli: Exactly. It's a mongoose!

0:31:16 Thomas: That'd be great.

0:31:21 Eli: Thought, and not a place I expected this conversation to go, but I do think, because I was like, oh, we're going to three bears it, right? Right. Tom is going to be like, if a lady ever paid for my dinner, I would kill her dad.

0:31:31 Tom: Fuck that. Anyone who wants to pay for dinner is fine.

0:31:33 Eli: Right. Exactly. So So I thought that was right. But I think we found a really interesting three bears in that, like, all joking aside, like I don't know that I like jokes about like, oh, I play Nintendo all day aside. Like, I don't know that my life would change that much if I won the lotto tomorrow. And just based off, so a peek behind the scenes, like we get a month off from Puzzle and the Thunderstorm every year, a paid month, where we just like, of all agreed, we're all giving everyone a paid months off. So I get a paid-month off and largely I fill that with other work, right? So I I guess my answer would be that if the hypothetical sugar mama came along or if Anna won the lottery, like, think I my life would probably change very little, right.

0:31:35 Thomas: With I have to confess that I'm such an idiot that I couldn't conceive. And it's on me. Apologies. I couldn't conceive of a sugar relationship that wasn't also wholesome. I was like, yeah, we also have a great connection, me and this, whoever this.

0:32:33 Eli: Was Like No, no, know she'll fall in love with me. It's It's Me, maybe.

0:32:35 Thomas: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, a hundred percent. Or,

0:32:40 Eli: Eli's There, working the butthole. I'm working the heart strings.

0:32:40 Thomas: Or hold on. No, or, or if it's just a transactional one, I'll be working on the side to find that more wholesome sugar relationship in my off time. You know what I mean? Like I'm going to be finding that, that whatever that connection is somewhere.

0:32:53 Tom: Yo, If Lydia was financially to fully support you? Would you be able to stop working?

0:32:59 Thomas: Oh, oh. Ah, it'd be the best. Would do, I mean, I would do certain things. I think that, like, now, because Tom, I do think there's a lot of legitimacy to what you're saying where it's like, once you're already established as well, it's a whole different thing. At you a place like you have for a long time and you have a fulfilling career and all that, if I imagine, okay, what if when Lydia and I got together shortly thereafter, you know, she had come into money or had money. It's a different story.

I think I would be just purely doing kind of creative work. I don't think, I honestly, I probably would have started a podcast, but it'd be a very different one. I, you know, it'd be a bunch of stuff where I just wasn't under that financial pressure. And I think, uh, could I find, I've always had the problem that there aren't enough hours in a day to do all the things I want to do.

Like I just always, I, there are millions of things I want to do all the time and I would have no trouble doing them if I didn't need to work for money.

0:33:52 Tom: Yeah, I think if we won the lottery tomorrow, I would take the first six months and just sleep through it.

0:33:57 Eli: Smash.

0:33:58 Tom: That would be what I would do. I would just be like, you know what? I got plenty to do.

0:33:59 Thomas: Yeah. Doctor's Doctor's orders.

0:34:02 Eli: Shock Watch with a hammer to the music from Office Space, right?

0:34:04 Tom: But just... Yeah. If we won the lottery, I would have no problem quitting quitting my day job at that point, but I would not quit my podcast. I don't think because these feel like I'm in a different spot. Like these feel a hobby to me. These feel like a fulfilling and financially rewarding, thankfully. But when people say like, well, what do you like? It gets asked on AMA. It's like, what are your hobbies? And I'm like, this is my hobby. Like, I don't have time for another other hobby outside of the four podcasts.

0:34:12 Thomas: Thank Yeah, and

0:34:32 Tom: I do. What are you talking about?

0:34:28 Eli: Like,

0:34:32 Thomas: Riding a bicycle like a little lad.

0:34:34 Tom: Yeah,

0:34:35 Eli: A little lad. Yeah, being

0:34:35 Tom: I ride a bicycle like a little lad, that's that's it, that's my primary- Yeah. But

0:34:38 Eli: Excuse me, governor, alongside your ice cream truck. And when you stop, maybe I'll buy a popsicle from you. And he's like, "Hey man, you seem 50. Why do you have ribbons coming off the back of your straw hat?"

0:34:49 Tom: I

0:34:52 Thomas: Yeah. The playing card and this fucking spokes- or whatever, GMS. We're doing okay.

0:34:56 Eli: Yeah, Exactly. All

0:34:58 Tom: Would have no problem relying on the financial largesse of a woman, like, because she was a woman, I wouldn't give a shit.

0:35:01 Thomas: Wow. Wow.

0:35:02 Eli: Right, So conclusions, uh, you are the woman from this date, and you would like to buy Thomas or I, uh, food in exchange for can we say it, vigorous analingus. Give us a call, patreon.com/dearolddads, and if you're interested in that plus plus love, commitment, and trust. You may also indulge in the flesh of Tom Curry. But only if you're in it for the long term. He's no...

0:35:03 Thomas: Surprised. Whatever. Man, whatever, yeah, Oh, three bears, I'll do both. Oh, it's great.

0:35:33 Eli: Yes, exactly. Yes, we found it. All All right. Gentlemen, before we go. Daughter turned 18 this weekend, so I bought her a locket with a picture of herself inside. Now she knows she's independent.

0:35:55 Tom: It took me a second.

0:35:57 Thomas: All

0:36:02 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:36:42 Eli: Excuse me governor alongside your ice cream truck and when you stop maybe I'll buy a popsicle from you and