The Fani Willis Hearings - Your Comprehensive Guide 2

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:52 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Opening Arguments. This is episode 1007. I'm your host Thomas Smith, and we are here for the rest of the Fonny Willis, Nathan Wade, Fulton County, Georgia evidentiary hearing. We start with Fonnie Willis making a surprise appearance to testify. It's crazy. Can't wait to get into it. But we do, though, just a little housekeeping. Normally at this time on this night, you'd be listening to Plant World. That's a reference no one will get. Be listen to T3B, Thomas Takes the Bar Exam. This massive endeavor is pushing that off a little bit. We'll see, given scheduling and all that, we'll Answers in the next question up as soon as we can. But I just thought it was so important to make sure we got both parts of this out immediately rather than like make you wait for part two. And then who knows if maybe there's like a ruling and then that would kind of make it weird that we hadn't released the part two yet.

So I thought it made more sense to do it this way, and we'll make sure to get you that T 3 BE as soon as we can. Also note that we have a patron bonus planned because there is even more this hearing, so much more, but more on that later. If you always want to know what's going on and if you want to know if there's, by the way, scheduling changes, I announce if it's anything significant, I announced it on Patreon.

I announced that in the Facebook group. So if you're ever not sure what's going on, make sure to hop on to either patreon.com/law or, you know, go in the Facebook group Opening Arguments Community. It's facebook .com slash group slash Yodel Mountain. You'll always know what's going on. Right, here we go. I can't wait for you to hear this. Here's our analysis of essentially the second half of all of the testimony combined, starting with Fonny Willis.

0:02:35 Thomas: At long last, we, we are final there. And Fonny Willis, why don't you describe what happens here.

0:02:39 Casey: I'm gonna describe it because I, oh, I, it was just, it wasn't so much when I, Fannie Willis, or anyone else saw Fanny Willis come into the courtroom, it was what her assistant district attorney, uh, like when Fannie Wallace came into the courtroom.

0:02:48 Matt: The on her face it was amazing

0:02:52 Thomas: The One who was just cross-examining here, yeah, yeah,

0:02:53 Matt: Yeah that's

0:02:56 Casey: So yes. So, so essentially, uh, Wade's testimony ends and Fonny Willis shows up in the courtroom, comes striding in, goes into the area behind the bar, you know, where the council tables are and says, here I am, I'm ready to testify. I heard that, I Wade was done. And so I figured you would want to call me next. And the look on her ADA's face was incredible. Like she was just staring daggers at her.

0:03:07 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, We All, it's even funnier than that, it's even funnier than that, because they, they finish this testimony with Wade, and then her person you're talking about cross, a green, cross, I believe, she's like, all right, well, your honor, um, just goes to show why Fanny Willis does not need to testify, testify. This is ridiculous, um, renew our motion to quush, and I will be dead before she's right behind me, isn't she? Yes, she's right. And then she's just like starts, like literally she's in that argument, I'm not even exaggerating, she's in the argument about how Fonny Willis shouldn't have to testify and Fonnie Willis has already like strapped her seatbelt into the witness chair, and it's like, I'm good to go, I don't know what you're talking about, I'm ready to go is

0:03:34 Casey: Yeah. Yeah.

0:03:36 Matt: Right, yeah.

0:03:51 Casey: And she's like asking the court officer for water. Yeah, that was I mean it was it was really incredible to look on the ADA's face, like, not only is my boss in court, like, showing up being like, here I am, ready to testify, but my boss is also like actively undermining the position that I was taking a moment earlier, it was incredible, yeah,

0:04:00 Thomas: Yeah. Crazy. In

0:04:00 Matt: Yeah so good so good, this

0:04:16 Thomas: Real time. Yeah.

0:04:18 Matt: Is the closest think we get to actual courtroom drama, like actual movie drama, this would happen in a movie, that the idea just shows up and decides to testify when she's been fighting it, yeah, no, this is it's great, but

0:04:19 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:04:24 Casey: It it was it was amazing and into the witness chair she goes.

0:04:32 Matt: Generally, before we get into it, I just wanted to talk about her state of mind, what she's walking in with, because I think that there's been a lot of talk about how she's presenting and her demeanor and her sort of way of talking about all this stuff. But she says that she spent the morning pacing around her office. She wasn't getting anything done. She was just really upset and just getting anxious about all of this. And she knew about some of the things that had been said. She knew that her former friend had turned on her. She's really kind of worked up.

But more than that, much more than that, she's just spent the last couple of years, her entire career basically as a prosecutor has been spent pursuing this case and being threatened and harassed and in fear because of it. The just, for context, uh, actual, call, the news of the call came out the day before she was sworn in of the Raffensperger call, so this defined her DA ship, like this is what she's doing now. At the same time, I will point out Fannie Willis has a jail in Fulton County that is in very, very bad shape, uh, where they have a backlog of about 10,000 cases that they still haven't caught up with from COVID. That is, it sounds like mostly her predecessor's fault, but she's getting a lot of criticism for pursuing this very large and very important case. There are really, I mean, people are dying in that jail about 10 or 12 a year.

There's a lot to complain about, these backlogs, but nothing's going forward. So she's got real problems in her office. But she has, this case has defined her and has defined what's going on. And this is going to be the rest of her career and what she's known for. And she's coming in and she's determined.

And I have to say that when you sort of think about that state of mind, and what you'd be coming in with and how human this whole thing is, it's hard for me to criticize as much as I think that she could have done something else here.

0:04:36 Thomas: Oh, wow. Yeah hmm.

0:06:00 Thomas: I feel like every attorney's advice all the time is don't do this. Do the opposite of this.

0:06:04 Matt: Yes. Shut up.

0:06:06 Thomas: Yeah. What do you make of that Casey?

0:06:06 Matt: Yeah.

0:06:05 Casey: Yeah Mean, in terms of just showing up in court and agreeing to testify.

0:06:11 Thomas: This decision is pretty bold.

0:06:14 Casey: Have, yeah, sort of mixed feelings on it. I can understand as a person why she wanted to do it. A lawyer, I question whether it was a good idea. And in particular, I questioned whether it was a good boss in,

0:06:28 Thomas: That's for sure, but that's interesting, though, because one of the first questions is, hey, Fanny Willis, how did you know to come here to testify? Because she's not supposed to be hearing any testimony, right? Isn't that, what are the rules around that, right?

0:06:42 Matt: Yep. Right.

0:06:42 Casey: Right. Well, Witnesses, potential witnesses are usually sequestered, so they're told not to each other's testimony. Think that she claimed that she heard someone saying in her office that he just finished his testimony and that she had had just been pacing around in her office. Yeah.

0:06:58 Matt: Is believable.

0:06:57 Thomas: I But if allegedly she wasn't supposed to know what anyone said, why didn't this happen first thing in the morning? I

0:07:08 Casey: I, well, I think, I didn't necessarily mean she knew what he said on the stand. Right. Think I that she just was saying, I knew he he, just finished his testimony and I figured I be the next one that you would want to call to testify. And I want to testify here. I am. I'm waving that motion to quash. Like we're not pursuing that anymore.

0:07:23 Matt: That's what it sounded like.

0:07:24 Thomas: I'd be honest, I feel like she was just watching the live stream, I don't, you know, like what, otherwise, what has changed, like, in her mind, is it just the news that Wade testified, that

0:07:28 Matt: That was done because was always talk about Wade and Willis together as witnesses they would have to go together. They can't just have one or the other. Reasonable.

0:07:39 Casey: Sure what changed, except that I guess it's possible that she was just sitting around, not watching it, getting more and more annoyed, thinking about the fact she wasn't going to have her opportunity to tell her side of the story. Definitely can see what you're saying. I'd think it'd be a huge temptation just to watch the live stream. But you know, she is an officer of the court. She's the elected district attorney. So So, oh,

0:08:01 Matt: Did also mention, I will point out, that she was familiar with the contents of Yardie's testimony, which she wasn't really supposed to be.

0:08:06 Casey: Yeah, I just I guess I'd like to assume that she, she followed to give her the benefit of the doubt that she followed a court order. And she was you're saying you're sure that she was to all the potential witnesses were told to sequester.

0:08:10 Matt: I'd hope so. Sure. Sure, I believe that comes up in her father's testimony. Yeah, yeah,

0:08:19 Casey: OK.

0:08:20 Thomas: It's a little skeptical. I, I love me some Fanny, but I feel this is a little hard for me to believe, because like if their position is, we have a motion to quash, we're not going to let you call Fonny, that doesn't make any sense. If her position was, nevermind, I got to tell my story, I don't see why, if she was doing the thing you're supposed to do, which is, well, you're not supposed to listen to any of this or hear any of these, then she just got to a certain point in the day where she was like, screw it, I got a testify. I just seems weird to me. But if you're saying that there was some specific order of witness calling that maybe she would have been like relying on, then okay, maybe that makes sense, yeah.

0:08:20 Casey: All right.

0:08:55 Casey: That what she said was almost I what Matcha said, which is it only would make sense that you would call me next. I

0:09:00 Thomas: But their position is that you, if they call her, we have a motion to quash, and she's reversing that in real time, okay.

0:09:04 Matt: Course. I think she knew that it was, at this point, after Wade had testified, I think you have to hear from her, because the only way that the The evidence is complete, as if you heard from her at this point. I don't think that motion was ever going anywhere.

0:09:17 Thomas: Interesting.

0:09:17 Casey: I kind of think that myself, but you know, motions to quash are kind of a mystery to me. It's not something I've ever, I've never filed one myself. Um, quashed.

0:09:24 Thomas: Never quashed, okay, you should quash.

0:09:26 Casey: No.

0:09:27 Thomas: You got it, you know what, you gotta try quashing once in a while.

0:09:27 Casey: Um. You know, but

0:09:29 Matt: Every couple of years, at least, yeah.

0:09:30 Thomas: Yeah. Well, let's, show how she comes in. She comes in hot. The judge, like, a huge fan. You know, I feel like this is pretty extreme.

0:09:35 Casey: Yeah.

0:09:39 Clip: So I object to the speech. I don't know how to explain my answers. I believe you don't. That's why I'm an actress. Ms. Merchant, that's okay. I can hear you. Ms. Willis, I'll ask you to just listen to the question and keep the answers confined to the questions as much as you can. I think you'll have more than enough ample opportunity on the state was open to ask questions.

It's highly offensive when someone lies on you, and it's highly effective when they try to implicate that you slept with somebody the first day you met with them, and I take exception to it. All right. Well, Ms. Wills, you'll be able to have the opportunity to explain all of that when it's the state's turn to ask more open -ended questions. Ms., Merchant. Thank you, Judge. So then my question was, you are not at that conference though, right? We do at the meeting.

As I stated, he taught the class. I did not actually meet him when he taught the class, but I walked out of the class and I'm not sure if it was that exact class or we had eaten lunch, but we were standing in the vestibule, like outside of the glass. Me and Judge Rees were having a conversation. She had worked at a law firm I worked at back in 1996. We're getting I mean, I don't mind her explaining her answers, but I literally just asked if they met at that conference. Explaining how she met Mr. Wayne, which was exactly the question asked by Ms. Merchant. Whose answers are more than appropriate? Ms. Berger, if you want more concise answers, perhaps you could lead the witness. I will. Thank you, Judge.

0:10:21 Thomas: Just does it again. I mean, she's just, I mean to be fair, she asked like, you met him at that conference. Is that open -ended or is that a yes or no? Do you have to say yes or not? Hey, yeah. What's an open -handed versus yes or no question?

0:11:06 Casey: I mean, you probably don't get a soliloquy in response to question, but

0:11:10 Thomas: After the judge just admonished her her to not do soliloquies. It's

0:11:13 Casey: Yeah, I think that at that point, you should be catching on to the idea, though, that she's not going to answer things yes or no, and you probably should be leading her a little little bit more, which is basically what the judge said, right? But I think that and was pretty difficult to confine her to yes or no answers regardless of how the questions were framed.

0:11:29 Thomas: She clears up a lot. She gives her side of the story. Um very intense about it. Uh, to play specifically around the cash question.

0:11:40 Clip: The cash that you would pay him, you wouldn't get it out of the bank? I have money in my house. You have money on your house. So it was just money that was there. When you meet my father, going to tell you, as a woman, you should always have, which I don't have, so let's don't tell him that. You should have at least six months in cash at your house at all time.

Now I don't know why this old black man feels like that, but he does. When we were growing up, my daddy had three safes in the house, so my father's bought me a lock box and I keep cash in the house. Now I don't do it to the degree that my father would do it, so he would probably be uh ashamed with me, but I always have cash at the house. That has been, I don't know, all my life.

If you're a woman and you go on a date with a man, you better have $200 in your pocket. So if that man acts up, you can go where you want to go. So I keep cash in my house and I don't keep cash as good in my purse like I used to. Because I don't go on many dates, but when you go out on a date, you should have cash in your pockets. I've

0:12:39 Thomas: Know. What do you guys feel about that?

0:12:40 Casey: I, I mean, personally, am not a big user of cash, but I, I will say that my response to this, because I got, I actually got a number of messages from friends about this portion of the a testimony, where people are just expressing, you, and basically saying how ridiculous it was and why would you have that much cash, and especially what she gets to later on about bringing all this cash when she traveled. Don't personally use a lot of cash, but I, it's pretty common amongst some, you, groups, like it sounds like amongst folks, it's common fairly, and based on what testimony will be and based upon what she said, real common amongst immigrants.

Grandparents, deceased, who now, so nobody's going to go break into their house when they hear this, but they kept a lot of cash in the house. That was a pretty normal thing. I think a lot Matt's clients pretty much exclusively pay for things in cash. The house, so to me, like, it's not what I would do, but it didn't strike me as as weird as apparently did to to other people who seem to think this just was ridiculous and and not really believable. To me, it sounded, know, like something I don't personally do, but I, I know people very close to me that have

0:12:48 Thomas: Oh, interesting.

0:13:39 Matt: Makes sense to me. I thought it was a pretty credible explanation between her and her father.

0:13:44 Thomas: Combine that too with, um, lot of what the other side is doing is lumping a bunch of stuff together. And she makes the point that like, look, these take them one at a time. It's not that much cash, you know, like, okay. A couple hundred dollars here, you for this trip. Um, biggest one she she did say she gave him $2,500 for the cruise. Shoes, which, you know, in cash, that's a lot of cash. That's a little weird.

She's also very firm on that and on that number. And she like is consistent with it to the degree that it strikes me as like, OK, yeah, all right. Sounds there's a really specific reason she wanted to, like, consistently lie about that. It feels pretty genuine to me. Me play here. First completely loses me, though, because they took a Napa trip and she leads off with, I don't like wine. I'm just like, God, why did you go to... That hurt. I had to get over that.

I was a little biased against her when I heard that. You went on a whole Napa wine tracing trip and you're like, wine kind of sucks. I'm she talks about all the trips here.

0:14:38 Clip: Covered the let me tell you our little trips in October we on the cruise with his mom we got back from the cruise with his mommy to Aruba I consider that one trip second trip New Year's Eve we went on a cruise to the Bahamas that's the second trip I'm gonna make sure sure I get this right third trip 100% on me I think he might have spent $200 on that entire trip uh we went to Belize that was my trip that was you know his 50th and then Napa Valley we went around May I don't know the dates but it seems to me like it was close to Mother's Day and those are my trips um that the record is complete I can remember one time driving to where were we In South Carolina, we met my sister for lunch with her man.

0:15:26 Thomas: Yeah. I mean, like, come on. At this point, what Are we talking about here? Clarence Thomas gets flown on a private jet everywhere and gets gazillions of dollars. And we're like, well, I drove to South Carolina with him. You know, is that a big thing? Like, come on. I love

0:15:41 Matt: She, at one point, debates whether or not going to Tennessee is a vacation. Sorry, Tennessee.

0:15:44 Thomas: It. And it's just, I think it's easy to lose the context here by drilling down on like, oh, did she tell the total truth, the cash deposits? It's like, what are we talking about here? The Total amount, like I said, what could it be? Five, $7,000 in a couple of years? It's just, it's not anything that's so out of the ordinary for lawyers, for attorneys, to have like money, to have that, that means she was getting enriched by having, you know, dated the guy that she hired. Yeah.

0:15:57 Matt: Yeah.

0:15:52 Casey: Yeah. Yeah. She, she developed a personal stake in, in prosecution.

0:16:19 Thomas: It's crazy. Yeah.

0:16:19 Casey: If she couldn't afford the, tickets to a Ruber or the $400 round trip flight or whatever it costs. It seems, it seems kind of unlikely even on a public servant salary that, you need your, your boyfriend that you've hired, purposely to more money to to take some of these trips. It just seems to me not, not very credible regardless of how she came across in the stand and what type of witness she was, which is, you know, we can talk about that separately. But it just doesn't seem very credible to me, like, once you actually drill down into it.

0:16:22 Thomas: Yeah.

0:16:44 Matt: Keep thinking I'm going to point this out probably more than once while we're recording here. But just think about how weird this is. Just step back for a second, because this judge, this courtroom, these lawyers, these prosecutors will be trying Donald Trump shortly in the same courtroom. And we're going to be remembering that she talked about how she liked Grey Goose Vodka and had cash in her house and her relationship philosophies and her trips and all this weird stuff you would never find out about a prosecutor in the middle of a case. You know, I'm not saying one way or another. I just think it's really strange.

0:16:56 Thomas: Does

0:17:10 Matt: Just something to keep in mind.

0:17:11 Thomas: That matter though, like at this point, maybe it's a generational difference but like I I know you folks when I was growing up were all terrified of the internet and privacy and like everyone was like how could you take a picture of of yourself and put it on the, and now it's like, yeah, we just kind of figure everyone's got their business, man. Like it's all, whatever.

0:17:13 Matt: No, we're just not used to prosecutors.

0:17:28 Thomas: Yeah. Maybe not prosecute. Maybe not.

0:17:30 Casey: Well, I I think, like you said earlier, now that you brought it to my attention, Thomas, earlier, I think for the crowd more than anything, because I do think a lot of them probably are shocked, whatever reason, or maybe they're faux shocked, I don't know, about idea of a woman, you, like, she kept saying, with her former friend, and drinking Grey Goose vodka, and going on trips with boyfriend that she's not married to, who I guess maybe was legally married to somebody else at that point. Like, I guess that that might be very titillating to to certain people. Yeah.

0:17:56 Thomas: Actually. Yeah. Let me ask a serious question on that. Now that you're already talking about, what about voir dire? They have to voir dire this too? Like, okay. Have you heard about Fannie Willis's habits or is it just like, have you heard a lot about the Donald Donald Trump case and the whatever. How do you think that will go?

0:18:09 Matt: I've been wondering about that. Just how it would affect the jury pool, because they've really gotten to know her here, right? And so there's kind of an interesting relationship going on now. Sorry,

0:18:12 Thomas: Yeah.

0:18:10 Casey: No, I think it depends on, on a couple things. One is how they do voir dire in Georgia, whether they have attorney -led voir dire or whether it's you, judge is the one that that takes the lead on voir dire. And, um, that's the case, whether what types questions the parties to submit the judge that they want asked of the jurors. And I would think you're the prosecution, and frankly, maybe even if you were the defense, that you would want to know the degree to which the jurors were aware of this hearing and these details and any views that they might have developed about the district attorney who's this case. Case

0:18:45 Matt: Usually you wouldn't have any reason to have an opinion about the DA, but in this case, I was also, we might get to the takes, but generally the takes have come down by race where white people are baffled by her approach. And a lot of black commentators have been saying they get it, you know, they see what she's doing and they like it.

0:18:48 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm. Interesting.

0:19:00 Matt: Also some of that too, that maybe black jurors would be more inclined to like her after hearing this and white jurors might not. I

0:18:59 Casey: Now,

0:19:04 Thomas: Strictly speaking though, that should have no bearing on the case, right? I mean, and I wonder how the law treats that because now they think about it, there are plenty of attorneys that are dirtbags. There are plenty, there have plenty of attorneys that even have big reputations where it'd be like, Well, okay, the jury pool has likely heard of this attorney and it shouldn't matter, right?

0:19:07 Matt: No, no, sure, absolutely, yeah, I

0:19:23 Casey: Sometimes though that will be a question is whether or not they've formed an opinion, um, I unfortunately can't right now think of the specific case, but I have seen that asked about whether or not the jurors like had any particular opinion of the attorneys in the case, um, and I just can't remember what case it was, but it, you know, it's not it's not common.

0:19:37 Thomas: Yeah. It might have been an X-Men where Frazier, I think, is a lawyer. I don't know, that was so dumb. I thought, I thought of that the other day and I was like, did I dream that or was Frazier a giant green lawyer in X-Man in 2000 or so? And I think he was, so I guess if you're like, hey, does the attorney being an X-Man, like, are you bigoted against mutants? And they'd be like, yes. And be like, okay, well, come on. Yeah.

0:19:53 Matt: Think you're right, right?

0:20:04 Casey: I think the question is whether or not you've, you're developed an opinion about the defendant, um, or I suppose maybe, maybe somebody else involved in the case, because, you know, they read off at the beginning of wadir, they, they read off a list of all of of the potential witnesses, which is usually a very over inclusive list of anyone that might potentially testify, um, to see if anybody in the jury pool knows those people. And at least in my experience, there's always almost always a handful of people that that do know, know, usually very tangentially, you know, one or more of those people. And the you lawyers do also, everybody gets up and introduces themselves and, you know, whoever they represent. And it's for the same reason, because at least here, the court also asks whether or not anybody potential jurors know the. And so I think it's, it's for that purpose, right? Is to determine whether or not you have a, a bias in favor or against, you, you know, any potential witness or against the lawyers involved.

0:20:08 Thomas: Yeah.

0:20:50 Matt: It's become a talking point amongst a lot of right-wingers at this point that she has perjured herself and that she's lied in court. So imagine walking into a jury pool, like believing that off the top, right? That she's a perjurer. Does matter in this case.

0:20:59 Thomas: Well in that case. Yeah, good, I want them to weed those people out, you know, but you're also going to be weeding people out for Trump dedication, I would hope, anyway, so a lot of that's going to overlap, I suppose. Yeah.

0:21:04 Casey: Yeah, yeah,

0:21:11 Matt: Sure.

0:21:11 Casey: I think it'll just depend on what the attorneys want to frame the questions, whether they're the ones asking the questions or whether the judge, court is the one asking those questions. Again, I'm just not sure how they do it in Georgia, but I, some of that will be a matter of strategy because you also don't, don't wanna annoy jurors by asking a thousand, like, really invasive questions about, you know, what they know and don't know and their feelings about things, but you also don't want to get people on the jury that know that really are biased, obviously, in favor of one side or the other.

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0:23:04 Clip: So your office objected to us getting Delta records for flights that you may have taken with Mr. Mayfield. No, no, no. I object to you getting records. You've been intrusive into people's personal lives. You're confused. You think I'm on trial. These people are on trial for trying to steal an election in 2020. 20, I'm not on trial, no matter how hard you try to put me on trial. So

0:23:26 Matt: She's right. I just want you to imagine for just a moment, because I had this thought while I was making dinner just a few hours ago. Imagine Fannie Willis cross -examining Donald Trump. I want her to stick around just to see that because

0:23:37 Casey: No

0:23:37 Thomas: Won't does he have to? He doesn't have to do that, right? Right.

0:23:41 Matt: Have to testify. But I'm just saying, in my fantasy version of this trial, that's what happens, right?

0:23:41 Casey: He

0:23:42 Thomas: Yeah we can hope yeah okay okay sorry, I didn't want apologies for, for spoiling a fantasy. Okay.

0:23:45 Matt: Yeah. Yeah, no. Or Giuliani. I mean, Giuliani might be stupid enough to testify, right, that, yeah, he absolutely might.

0:23:48 Casey: Might though he might oh

0:23:50 Thomas: Oh God. I hope one of them is, oh, I hope one of him is like, I am so good at convincing people. I'm going to get up there. It just melt.

0:23:58 Matt: Yeah, because

0:23:59 Casey: I could, I could absolutely see that. I mean, for sure, like, and it's not like their attorneys can really stop them, them, if that's what they want to do.

0:24:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:24:07 Matt: Known to be great at trial and you can see it here a little bit and kind of the passion here and the way she's talking and just the way that she's just so firm about what she's saying and she's amazing at cross apparently, so I just, I love the idea of seeing her cross-examine any of these people, but it depends on how long this takes this

0:24:10 Thomas: Yeah, I cannot wait to watch. We are going to cover the shit. When is this? Do we know yet? The actual this trial? Oh yeah, that's true. Is it this year though? Or is it getting pushed forever? Ever.

0:24:28 Matt: Is a joint let's hope

0:24:30 Thomas: Okay. I can't wait.

0:24:27 Casey: Yeah. Is there a trial date?

0:24:33 Matt: No.

0:24:33 Thomas: Not when you, okay. Because if they win this motion, there's no trial, he's free to go. So, you know, I as much as, uh, Fonny calms down a little bit at times, um, get pretty heated, and the judge well, let me just go ahead and play what happens here.

0:24:37 Matt: Yeah. Right, you could

0:24:49 Clip: Ever visited you at a place you laid her head. So let's be clear, because because you've lied, and this, let me tell you which one you lied in. Right here. I think you lied right here. No, no, no. This is the truth. It is a lie. It is. Mr.

0:25:04 Clip: Satter, I thank you. We're going to take five minutes. We're back in front.

0:25:08 Thomas: Yeah, that's Does that happen to you guys?

0:25:09 Casey: Yeah.

0:25:09 Matt: You know, she kind of...

0:25:10 Thomas: Yeah.

0:25:11 Matt: Yeah.

0:25:12 Casey: Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen anything go quite that sideways, like in terms of yelling at the yelling attorney and then having the judge have to take a recess. Mean, I've seen like a fair number of pretty combative witnesses witnesses. And, you they always tend to think things have gone very well once they get off the stands. You know, when, when you're like beforehand, you're, like, okay, so, you know, you, you just, you have to just answer the questions that, opposing you counsel asks. Like, just answer them. And then, you know, we can clean that up on, on redirect. We can, we can fix it or, you know, or on cross or whatever. Are always people that still get up there and they're, you're like, don't worry, I've got this. And then they get very combative. It's very uncomfortable. It's

0:25:49 Thomas: As an attorney, I'm sure the last thing you want is "No, I got don't worry about it, I got yeah.

0:25:52 Casey: No, yeah, I got this and then they Get off the stand and you know, they kind of like give you a little nod. They're like yeah, yeah that went well, You know, but they feel but, like, you know, I think in many cases that they want to say their piece, and I think it's hard, especially in emotional cases, because I've had people tell me afterwards, like, "No, I think think that went really well. I didn't, I didn't take any shit, like, from, you know, from that attorney," and it's like, oh, they were asking you very, very direct questions that were not damaging at all to anyone involved, but, you know, that I think they, when things are, feel really personal, now, uh, people respond that way, and as a lawyer, it's not great, but yeah,

0:26:00 Thomas: High five. High five. Yeah, yeah. Yeah

0:26:03 Matt: Yeah. Right.

0:26:31 Thomas: Really relate to having something that's intensely, uh, and difficult, but knowing that the way people are just perceiving you from the outside, if you show the feelings that you think are very warranted, that counts against you, even though you are doing the right thing as a human, you are doing the the thing that, by the way, that any of those humans in your position would do literally would show this ferocity, would show this anger and by doing that, people are like, well, okay, but decorum, you know, yeah.

0:26:49 Matt: Yeah, yeah.

0:27:00 Casey: Yeah, I think that's exactly right, right, is I think it's easy to say when you're the person that you're up there and you're doing your job, and you're like, "Please just act like a normal human." Like, they actually are acting like normal humans, right? They don't feel that they're being unreasonable. They probably aren't really being unreasonable, which is not what we expect in, in court. And, you know, we could probably have a whole conversation sort of about respectability politics and how that plays into the way people perceived her testimony. But, you know, I have to admit, I would be uncomfortable. I would be uncomfortable if a witness, and I have been uncomfortable witnesses, have become combative on the stand. But I get it. And I do think some of the response to her testimony has, you know,

0:27:24 Thomas: Amen yeah yeah yeah well

0:27:36 Matt: That there's a point at which Ashley Merchant asks the judge, basically suggests that this is a hostile witness. And the judge is like, no, she's just an adverse witness. We're not there yet. And I thought that was important.

0:27:43 Casey: Right

0:27:45 Thomas: We we don't have time to go back into the what the definitions of those are, although I did actually note that several times I wanted to ask you, but, man, court resumes, and pin in what you were saying, uh, I think this is if people are judging kind of how she's doing this, uh, this is, um, here's what happens when we resume, she's

0:28:02 Clip: The record. Before we proceed, though, I would advise everyone here, being a room, mostly for lawyers, who have spent their lives in and out of a courtroom, we all know what professionalism looks like, what decorum looks like, and devoting ourselves to the world, law and proper advocacy, I would urge everyone to keep those principles in the mind, starting with the fact that we won't talk over each other, and from there, get through this. Miss Merchant, thank you, judge. How often did Mr. Reed visit you, a place where you were living, between 2019 and 2021? Do you want to start with the lie that he lived with me in South Fulton in 2019, a home he's never been to? That's one lie you told in that document. No, you guys didn't ask her about that? Ms. Merchant, I want you to ask

0:28:51 Casey: Out

0:28:54 Thomas: Like right back, back in it. She gets, I can't remember if she gets even more mad, but basically, she the judge like, all right, everyone get along here. And then Fonny Wills is essentially like, and another thing, you know? And it's, uh, it's a little, it'S a little bold, I gotta say.

0:28:56 Matt: Yep. Yep, she

0:28:58 Casey: The gate.

0:29:09 Casey: Yeah.

0:29:10 Matt: Is entirely herself, self all the time, gotta appreciate it you

0:29:11 Casey: Yeah, yeah. I think She's authentic to herself. I mean, like I said, I would be uncomfortable, if I were a lawyer involved in this in in any capacity on multiple levels, but

0:29:12 Thomas: I do respect that.

0:29:25 Thomas: She emphasizes that he has never been to her South Fulton house. She's very strong on that. It seems like, man, I don't know if you checked. Did they claim that in the original motion?

0:29:34 Matt: Know, they suggested it, and that they've been suggesting it, that that were meeting up there

0:29:35 Thomas: OK, but it's like with no proof, though. Well, because before the date that.

0:29:37 Casey: Really know why it matters oh

0:29:41 Thomas: Yeah, but But here's the thing with some of these things, they at least have, OK, Yurdi claimed something or, you know, they're kind of implying. To my knowledge, I've watched this entire thing. I never saw a single shred of proof that he had ever been to that South Fulton house at all by anyone. Not just claiming it.

0:29:37 Matt: Yeah. Well it's cohabitation it's one of the cohabition things, yeah, yeah

0:29:42 Casey: Oh okay

0:29:59 Matt: That's

0:30:02 Casey: I wonder if they expected that out of some witness, like if they expected that to come in through a witness and then it just didn't, like it does seem kind of strange because they did did harp on it, which to me doesn't seem like that big of a point. But yeah, I wonder if maybe they were expecting a witness to say one thing and then they didn't say it. And so they figured they would try to pursue it with other witnesses instead. That's the only thing I can really think of.

0:30:22 Matt: Certainly what happened with the next witness, right?

0:30:23 Thomas: Or the other option is they're just liars. Could be part of it.

0:30:27 Casey: Yeah. Yeah, it could be. I mean, it's hard to believe, but yeah.

0:30:30 Thomas: Yeah, they go through a point of, well, why did you have all, if you had all this cash hash around, you had a tax lien in 2022 of like $4 ,000 or something. And I was like, well, that's a little weird, but also, I don't know. I feel like you can't really police how someone uses their money. Like if they owe the IRS and they're like, Well, I'm not paying that, but I have some other money I'm using for something else. A lot of this is you can get lost. I bring it up because you can Get lost in those little details. Ooh, if she had a Tax lien, why? How could she have not paid that way? It's like, all right, what are we talking about here? Just policing, like -focusing on the behavior of one person not charged with any of the crime here and just finding what looks bad? Because we could do that with literally any human.

0:30:37 Matt: Her?

0:30:54 Casey: Yeah yeah.

0:31:09 Casey: I mean, I agree. Forgetting to pay this like $200 medical bill for the past like, you know, year and a half. And it's not because I can't pay the $200. It's because I just keep forgetting to do it.

0:31:14 Thomas: Let's get it all out. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

0:31:21 Casey: You know, so I, I guess I just, I don't find that that persuasive, um, you knows that maybe she has other stuff going on in her life and it, it slipped her mind. Or Um, maybe she thought she paid it and you IRS doesn't have the best record keeping practices. I'll put it that way.

0:31:22 Thomas: Amen.

0:31:35 Matt: Response to this is that you still go shopping when you have bills to pay, right? So, you know, it's

0:31:38 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a good response. And it's like, yeah.

0:31:39 Matt: True, yeah.

0:31:40 Casey: That That is true.

0:31:41 Thomas: And I got to play another part here. We're almost to the end of her testimony. Um, a great part here, uh, set this up so the argument happening here, and it's along the lines of that tax lien, too. They're trying to go after, hey, um, you had so much cash around, which you would need in order to pay your half of these trips, as you've alleged. Why did you claim in the book here that again, I thought based on how they they presented this at first, I thought she wrote the book. Like I literally for a while thought like, oh, this is her, or like, you know, co -wrote an autobiography. It turns out, no, like they just did a few interviews with as her. They're like, well, then how come in this book it said you were destitute you before you ran, and like, that's inconsistent here. And so we get, we get an explanation plus a really good quote here. I

0:32:25 Clip: Were quoted in the book, and I'm going to give you a chance to say if this is a misquote. You're quoted, when they asked you about if you wanted to run for office for DA, you were quoted, "I really don't want to be financially effed up again." I remember saying that. So what that refers to so the question first is if you remember saying that. Would never say something similar to that, but I would like to be able to explain what that's a reference reference to. That's not in to anything else. It was a huge sacrifice to be district attorney in Fulton County. Huge. I was doing just fine. I had a municipal court judgeship that was paying me a hundred and something thousand dollars a year. Like, you got to show up twice a week. Easiest thing I've ever done in life. I also had private clients that were, um, pain With -

0:33:08 Thomas: Just - Had to include that, uh, any commentary on - That - I -

0:33:11 Matt: It's - So good. I had a no-show job, yeah. It's - I have total respect for this, just total honesty, yeah.

0:33:14 Casey: Yeah.

0:33:18 Thomas: That's not the case, but I wish this judge was that kind of judge. Like, I don't - because - It would be really funny if -

0:33:22 Matt: Yeah.

0:33:23 Casey: Well, and they get clients in addition to, I guess I understand how the system works down there. And that's, I did Google it. And I gather that the municipal courts are kind of like their traffic courts for the most part.

0:33:25 Thomas: Yeah. Huh. Right.

0:33:34 Matt: We - Traffic cords with some misdemeanors, yeah.

0:33:36 Casey: Very minor misdemeanors like shoplifting and, possession you of marijuana, I think it said. But yeah, so, does does surprise me that you can be a judge and still take private clients, but

0:33:36 Matt: Yeah. I -

0:33:44 Thomas: But - It would have been so funny if this was that kind of judge and she's just like, yeah, easiest job in the world, you just sit there with your dumb bald head and you just say stuff that you look 70 even though you're 35, and you you just make all these pronouncements. That would have been - no, that she didn't - Go that far.

0:34:00 Thomas: Here's Sadow, who - just remind everybody is an asshole, uh, over my words. Don't - don't, this is my opinions, don't - Uh, impute any of my opinions onto the - Uh, fine.

0:33:56 Casey: God. Oh,

0:34:09 Matt: Mean - I'll second that.

0:34:09 Thomas: And - Matt, okay, mine and Matt's opinions. Not - No comment, um -

0:34:09 Matt: But -

0:34:13 Casey: I'm not gonna, no comment.

0:34:16 Clip: In the prosecution team knew of your personal relationship - and now I'm talking romantic with Mr. Wade - some stuff I am extremely private. It's not - if the answer is no one knew, that's fine. No, I ask - I ask you, who knew? Let me just tell you, I'm going to explain this for us. I am very private. When I supervised Mr. Boddy and Mr. McAfee, they didn't know who I was dating, but I can assure you I was dating somebody. So that I kept something private, that's my private life, is not any mystery to anyone.

0:34:50 Clip: It's like a woman doesn't have the right to keep her private life private. And I'm speaking on this because there have been all these intimations. I'm sorry, I didn't answer the question, Ms. Mask. I'm so sorry, it was a question. Is there anyone else who knew about it?

0:35:03 Thomas: And then, uh, I found this interesting talk.

0:35:04 Clip: You stated that the person I chose, we had a personal relationship. So we had an friendship. We have all these distinguishing factors. Remember, when I chose him in November of 21, first of all, let's get this straight. Mr. Wade was not actually my first choice. That's no insult to him. No, no, no. Because of the way you phrased the question, you said, when I chose him, I didn't inform people of a personal relationship. We have defined personal as romantic. It is an inaccurate way to state the question and I certainly restated contact

0:35:38 Matt: They definitely hooked up before, that's what she's saying. I -

0:35:41 Thomas: What? No.

0:35:41 Casey: I don't think so.

0:35:42 Thomas: I - Don't think - So.

0:35:42 Casey: What?

0:35:42 Matt: Think - Romantic - I mean, she makes it pretty clear elsewhere that like she distinguishes between - Romance and sex.

0:35:46 Casey: No.

0:35:47 Thomas: But she's making the opposite point. So now he's trying to say, oh, you didn't tell anyone you had a personal relationship when you hired this guy, you didn't tell the prosecution team. And she's saying, well, first off, he wasn't my first choice, which I love. But secondly, she's - say, well wait a minute, personal relationship doesn't mean that in this context. She's saying like that was his words and she's is making sure to define it how she wants to define which is no, no, we just knew each other essentially. And he was the one who kind of smuggled in personal relationship.

0:36:00 Matt: Yeah.

0:36:15 Matt: I won't get into it, I still - I have a distinguishing factor there, but it's fine. Fine.

0:36:19 Thomas: Okay. Be, I'd be curious about that later, but we can, right.

0:36:21 Matt: They're playing games about when they actually had physical relations. That's what I'm going to say. I don'don't know. I don't care. I really don't care. These are two people working on one of the most important cases that's going on right now. I DON'T care what they do. I mean, it matters a little bit that he's on her payroll and she shouldn't have done it, but it's not disqualifying.

0:36:37 Thomas: Well, I just want to note though, that like she's around this and before and after that clip, point like of what she's saying is no, we didn't have a physical relationship here. I don't know if there's some slip up that points to it, but

0:36:47 Matt: That's not how I heard it, but maybe

0:36:50 Thomas: Well, right. A couple more quotes to play here that the indictment is what the question was.

0:36:52 Clip: Sure that the tough conversation didn't happen until after, but the physical relationship, so I'm sure if you ask Mr. Wade, because he's a male, he would say we didn't do June or July, because physical contact ended then. Just in my mind, being a woman, it's over when you have that hard conversation. I just think women and men think differently. And I think the answer to Ms. Pizzoletti's question was she's not sure whether it was before or after the indictment. I'm not sure that that was her answer, but let's see if I can get specific. That is what I said.

0:37:25 Clip: That's what I did. I'll let you... Next question, Mr. Sato. The romantic relationship ended before the indictment was returned, yes or no? To a man, yes.

0:37:41 Clip: To a man, yes, do you know? She's explaining this, Mr., sit down. She's explained this. And did the forthcoming indictment have anything to do with that? Or was it just a coincidence?

0:37:55 Clip: Mr., let's go on and have a conversation. I'm just asking whether or not it was a coincidence. It had absolutely nothing to do with this. It's interesting that we're here about this money. Mr. Wade is used to women, as he told me one time, the only thing a woman can do for him is make him a sandwich. We would have brutal arguments about the fact that I am your equal. I don't need anything from a man. A man is not a plan. A man is a companion, and so there was tension always in our relationship, which is why I was giving him his money back. I don't need it.

0:38:31 Thomas: Just had to get some of that in there. Oh, good stuff.

0:38:33 Matt: I believe that. I absolutely believe that she believes that. That is conviction.

0:38:35 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, I found that convincing. Think.

0:38:39 Casey: I just, the way that Sado behaves is really awful. I mean, I'm sure that he thinks that it's very effective behavior. I much doubt that that type of behavior is going to play well with a jury in the future if he behaves that way towards women who are witnesses.

0:38:56 Thomas: You like to hear another example of him being an asshole real quick? It's like two seconds.

0:38:59 Casey: Oh, yes. Yes, please.

0:39:02 Clip: Just to be clear, to end this up, the $4,000 that you just told us. But I didn't give it all to him, remember. I only gave the $2,500 to him. I didn't ask you that. I was going to ask you, that $4,000 is part of your, my words, cash hoard that you had collected over time. Cash what? Hoard, H -O -R -D -E. I thought you said something different.

0:39:20 Thomas: I Which I think that little thing is a distraction from the fact that he's trying to say that she had a cash hoard. You know, like, doesn't that seem like a weird way to describe it?

0:39:28 Casey: Yeah. Well, it makes her sound like a dragon that's like sitting on top of like a pile of treasure.

0:39:32 Thomas: Yeah. Well, okay. That's not so bad. But, but yeah, like he, He throws in this word, cash hoard. And I think he did it before that, actually. I think that was the second time. And it's like, I don't know, a cash hoard? You're talking to the DA of, you know, like, it just seems disrespectful to me. I don't t know.

0:39:49 Matt: Yeah. Weird.

0:39:50 Thomas: Is basically it. There's a delightful moment where one of the other attorneys for Team Trump tries to get in some crap and the judge is just like, no, man. And I just thought it would be funny to go out with that here.

0:39:48 Casey: Yeah. Yeah,

0:40:04 Clip: Testimony is that you did not receive in the aggregate more than one hundred dollars. All right, Mr. McGill, you can sit down now. I don't believe she answered that question, your honor. She answered as to specific individual gifts. And you're not listening to my answer either, so we're done. Very well. Okay, Mr. Rice.

0:40:23 Matt: Nice.

0:40:23 Thomas: Really felt like in the show Community, Parks and Rec, which was one of my favorites when the people, come you up and just speak at the town hall meetings, you don't go on for. All right. OK. All right, well, that's the end of day one.

0:40:31 Casey: Think

0:40:31 Matt: Yeah, the judge is doing great, I have to say, all around. I mean, he's really keeping it together.

0:40:41 Casey: So too. I think he comes across really well. I mean, he probably could have limited some of this stuff a little more, but yeah, I know he's like like, only 35, and that's shocking, but he he does seem to me like a very a competent, a competent judge who's trying to keep things under control to the degree that he can, and still protecting the record, while you he does that.

0:40:51 Thomas: Crazy.

0:41:00 Matt: That there's one more point I have to make about the judge. This has to get on the record. Other thing about Judge Judge Scott McAfee, is that he worked for Fonny Willis for a couple of years.

0:41:07 Thomas: Oh, Did I not say that? I, I meant to yeah, sorry, and

0:41:09 Matt: Now, worth mentioning, the senior ADA in the major case division for her. So that's got to be weird to be watching your former boss talk about all this and overseeing it.

0:41:16 Casey: That's interesting.

0:41:18 Thomas: She, I'll be honest, she's pretty disrespectful of him, um, I get that. She's wanting to express herself. I promise, I'm not like being unfair about that, but specifically after he like admonishes her, she goes back and does the exact behavior instantly, which felt like, okay, that's a, that that's, that, that that's not a good thing. That's a step too far for me. Like, okay. You can push the envelope a little bit. I get it, but she's pretty directly flouting what he says. And I, I actually wonder if that's part of why, like, yeah.

0:41:30 Casey: Yeah. Yeah.

0:41:41 Matt: That dynamic. Used to telling the guy what to do.

0:41:45 Casey: I also just, I think the reality is, is that for many of us over time, and someone told me this at the beginning of my career, and I found it hard to believe at the time because I was, I guess I was 25. They said over time more and more people you know are going to become judges. And so it's going to be harder and harder to, you know, to sort of contain behavior you're around them. And you have to do that, right? You have to respect them for the position they're in and treat them with respect, even if they're people that you might not think very highly of.

0:42:00 Thomas: Yeah.

0:42:12 Thomas: Yeah, it's like the neighbor kid becomes a judge. You're like, all right, come fucking. On. Changed your diapers. No.

0:42:17 Casey: I mean, it is true that over time, more and more people, you know, become judges. And so it it is different.

0:42:24 Casey: You ever felt like I could just treat a judge with that sort of

0:42:28 Thomas: Don't think you have it in you.

0:42:29 Casey: Yeah, I think it's sort of, I do think it was sort of disrespectful, but you know, I understand that it be hard for people. I think you just, you need to suck it up, even if it's somebody you had some type of personal relationship with, or if it's somebody you supervised at

0:42:44 Thomas: Right. Well, that was day one. And so we're halfway done. No, I'm just kidding. Day two has almost nothing, except for some reason, and decided to have an amazing character actor from a Coen Brothers movie come in and just do like some act, like it's amazing, this guy rules, I don't know who he is, I don't think he's real, I, I think he disappeared after he was done with his testimony, and this guy is the best, uh, think he pretty quickly just like introduces himself and says what's what, so maybe I'll just let him do it, uh, got the best voice in the world, this guy.

0:43:00 Matt: Love him. Yeah.

0:43:13 Clip: Barnes, R, -o -y -e -u -g -e -n -e, Barnes, B -r -n -e -s, good.

0:43:21 Thomas: It is, this guy is, a he's coming in here, sorry, I had to pause it, already he knows and has worked with every single person in the room. Like, he just comes in. It's like they all had him in just for fun. Like, hey, did you hear Roy's in town? Yeah, I'll put him on the stand. Yeah, let's just for - I don't even know why he's here, but it's good. Hold on, back to -

0:43:27 Matt: Yep. Yeah. It's like that

0:43:40 Clip: Uh, Good morning, Mr. Lawrence, can you tell the court a little bit about your background as it relates to your service in public service? I was first elected to the state senate in 1974 from Cobb County, and I served 16 years there. And then in 1990, I ran for governor and was defeated. And two years later, I went back to the House of Representatives. I was elected to the House of Representatives and served six years until I was elected governor in 1998, and I served in that position until January of 2003. And after serving in the position of governor, can you tell the court a little bit about what you transitioned into after your public service? I did exactly what I was doing before I was selected. I went back to practicing law in Marietta, Georgia With my daughter, who's now a judge of the state court, and my son -in -law. And now we have, I think, six or seven lawyers. Charlie Bailey back there was one of them at one time. Okay. And, Governor

0:43:47 Thomas: I went to Juilliard. What's this guy?

0:44:51 Clip: Buggs, would you consider yourself to be a trial lawyer? Yes. We don't write contracts or we don't provide rules. All we do is try cases. And I want to direct your attention back to 2021.

0:44:51 Thomas: Where's the sitcom? All right, I could listen to this whole thing and I want to, but We don't have time. But is very interesting, uh, here, I'll just start playing it. Okay.

0:45:07 Matt: Oh, I know. It is great.

0:45:12 Clip: I would not do that. And also I just had a bad, well I won't say bad because it happens from time to time, but I just have a FBI to report a fella, a militia trainer to me that said they were concerned when was making threats against me. And because I thought it was because of the flag, but I asked him and he said, no, it's because I was too close to the Jews, quote unquote. And I told D.A. Willis, I've lived with bodyguards for four years and

0:45:53 Thomas: He was, um, approached about this job, maybe he was, who, uh, was talking about, because he might have been the first choice, and his answer for why he didn't take the job was, "I didn't want to do it. I don't want to live with bodyguards. I didn't want to do all this." And he literally, it sounds like he got some threats for quote-unquote being too close to the Jews, which is crazy. But the purpose of this, I think, makes sense to me because it's like, hey, this isn't an easy job. This isn't a job that everyone would want to do.

0:46:22 Casey: Yeah, you're looking to somehow profit off of your relationship with somebody, I, this seems like a really extreme and weird way to do it.

0:46:29 Matt: Got because he was trying to replace the Georgia flag because he wanted to get the Confederate stuff out of the flag, a very respectable cause.

0:46:35 Thomas: And so he was saying, I thought it was about the flag, but it was actually because it was quote - unquote too close Okay.

0:46:40 Matt: But that Was why he was in hot water at the time. I should say hot water, he was doing the right thing. That was why he was finding himself on the wrong end of all these things. So you can imagine one state controversy where you're trying to replace the flag versus being in the middle of this national conflagration with Fox News talking about you every night, and with all of these death threats and all the things that Fannie Willis talked about and her father talks about, of death and rape threats. It's terrible.

0:46:40 Thomas: Yeah, sure. Yeah.

0:47:02 Casey: Yeah. What?

0:47:03 Thomas: God, another quick clip. Matt, Did I wonder if you look this up cause what in the world is this?

0:47:09 Clip: So, based on your career and the work that you've done, you've handled high-profile cases, correct? I have. I've handled some pretty good cases.

0:47:23 Thomas: This is an audition tape for

0:47:24 Clip: I sued Syria one time for beheading a client of mine who covered $80 million. I guess that's the best I could have, but that was in D.C.

0:47:24 Thomas: Something. I swear to God.

0:47:31 Casey: What? Wow.

0:47:36 Clip: I tried

0:47:36 Casey: Wow.

0:47:36 Thomas: Isn't that nuts? Sued Syria one time for beheading a client of his and, and won $82 million.

0:47:37 Casey: Wow.

0:47:43 Matt: It's pretty impressive.

0:47:44 Casey: That's a lot.

0:47:45 Thomas: You guys ever done that?

0:47:46 Casey: No. Wow,

0:47:49 Matt: Sotloff, a Jewish journalist, who was beheaded by the Islamic State.

0:47:52 Thomas: Crazy.

0:47:52 Matt: Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Him. On On Barnes. Yeah.

0:47:56 Thomas: More, more, to the fire of like, he's got big experience and he was like, I don't want to take this on. Idea that like, this wasn't some sweetheart deal that wave was getting like ,this is not an easy job. There's a lot that comes with it. I, you know ,I think this is pretty effective. Uh, there's another funny line here real quick. This guy, I'm sorry. We can't just play the whole, just watch the whole thing, everybody.

0:48:06 Casey: Yeah,

0:48:16 Thomas: But, yeah, it's not even that long. But Uh, they ask him if she's, you know, ever gone against Fonny Willis here this, with this rice smile. Like it's so charming. Like, yeah. She's great. Great attorney. She beat me at the trial level of the night, turned it around the Supreme court, you now with a bit of a wink.

0:48:02 Matt: Yeah. Yeah, it's great. It's like 17 minutes.

0:48:22 Clip: Him, and I defended him. She beat me at the trial. I turned it around to the Supreme Court.

0:48:29 Matt: Yeah.

0:48:36 Casey: I

0:48:37 Matt: He's vouching for her in this. He vouches for her and for Wade. He says they're both great lawyers.

0:48:39 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, I Getting, yeah, let me get to the Wade one. You're, you're totally right, um, what he says about Nathan Wade, oh.

0:48:45 Clip: Ms. Willis or Mr. DeSantis bring up the name Nathan Wade as a special prosecutor? I don't think so. I don't recall one. I mean, Nathan is a good organizer. You know, Nathan can organize stuff. I've watched him over the years. So I wasn't surprised that he was acting as a social prosecutor. And

0:49:09 Thomas: I mean, that's this guy being like, yeah, I'm not surprising that he was special prosecutor, I don't

0:49:13 Casey: You know, something I think is actually a lot of people probably wouldn't appreciate, but the comment about how he's a good organizer. Actually think that that in a case like this is, is super, super important, right? If you have a lot of exhibits and you have lot of attorneys and you have a of paper, um, a lot I actually don't know how many indictments they have.

0:49:31 Thomas: You think he means that literally, I thought it was like an election thing, or like community organizer thing

0:49:32 Casey: Yeah. Oh, no. I,

0:49:34 Matt: I think he meant he keeps his cases organized. That's what I heard it too.

0:49:35 Thomas: Oh, okay. Oh,

0:49:35 Casey: I, took, yeah, I took it to mean, I take it to me not just because I, personally, think that the hardest part of certain types of cases, it's not the legal issues or, or even like sort of the story behind the story or creating a theory of the case. It's actually just keeping organized. It'S yeah.

0:49:37 Matt: Yeah yeah.

0:49:50 Thomas: Just the goddamn paper.

0:49:52 Casey: Well it is. Yeah. And figuring out like how, you know, which exhibits are going to go in through which witnesses and how are they going to go in and, and those it's hard. Yeah, exactly. Literally keeping tabs. And that's, that's not something I'm great at yeah it's Something a lot of us kind of have to to work pretty hard at, but if he, if he's good at that, then yeah, that's that's worth a lot, honestly.

0:49:55 Thomas: Totally. Right. Oh, wow. I never thought about what that meant.

0:49:59 Matt: Literally keeping tabs. Yeah, that's where it comes from. Yeah yes. Can't say it's not qualified if that's something think he has a reputation for.

0:50:12 Casey: Yeah

0:50:15 Thomas: Then we get maybe What I think is the funniest thing in the world, but I want to make sure that I have interpreted it correctly.

0:50:20 Matt: So good.

0:50:21 Thomas: It's so good. OK, let me. We'll see if it's the Same moment, everybody blurted out at once, no, here, get some cross where, again, he guy, he's charmed the entire, the entire, you look at the camera, the whole room is smiling, they're all like, this is great, we should do this more often, do you want to testify in everything that we do, and they're like, then we get, you know, one by one, a bunch of the other lawyers just kind of getting their turn on Santa's lap or something, you know, they're like, hey man, we, you and I, big friends, you know, it's so funny, sorry.

0:50:23 Matt: If it's what you think. Yeah, here

0:50:50 Clip: Mr. Gillen, I've been waiting for this for a few years now.

0:50:52 Matt: It is.

0:50:57 Clip: I couldn't give up the chance of getting up there in government, good to see ya again. Good to seeya, Craig. Larry Johnson and I worked in the past together, haven't we? I consider you to be one of my best friends and a crackerjack lawyer. Well, I will say to you on the record that I can understand why they came to see you because you're the finest lawyer that I've ever worked with. Thank you. I need to put you in the next stage. Yeah, there you go. We'll get that picked up. One or two more questions. You and I are working together when it's appropriate. When it's appropriate, we've had no qualms about filing motions to disqualify the DA, have we? No. In fact, you and I successfully disqualified the DA out in Cobb County in the Brown case, didn't we? We did. So whatever needs to be done, you got that. She represents your client. You got that, thank you so much.

0:51:46 Matt: Good times. Remember when we disqualified a DA together? Man, that was fun.

0:51:50 Thomas: Didn't You take that as like, uh, okay.

0:51:52 Matt: Yeah yeah it's so good.

0:51:53 Thomas: Yeah, I'm on this side of the thing with these assholes, but Like, you get it right, like, it's okay that I'm doing this, right, is this fine, is this

0:51:57 Casey: Yep.

0:51:56 Matt: Yeah right. Yeah you're doing your job. It''s fine. Doing fine. I love it.

0:52:01 Casey: Yeah, That's that's interesting, Interesting.

0:52:04 Matt: That's the best cross -examination I've ever heard. I mean not best but like just the funniest. It's like two people are not in any way adverse, it's great, yeah,

0:51:59 Thomas: Okay, yeah, okay, it's So fascinating, it's No, good. No, And he's like that, you gotta represent your client, I get it, like, like, cause he, I love that that lawyer knows he's on the side of the assholes, like he knows, clearly, he's like, all right, this, or, or at least he knows this motion is kind of BS, right? Cause he's, like, you know, you see why I'm doing this, right.

0:52:26 Casey: Yeah.

0:52:28 Thomas: So funny. Okay. And then we get to Fonny Wills' dad. And this is a really interesting thing to me. We, About an hour, maybe.

0:52:18 Matt: Yeah, yeah, Nothing I just wanted to say that I think he's awesome. I love this guy. Um, he Quay was a very good father, but he's got an amazing story and

0:52:43 Thomas: Does have an amazing story.

0:52:44 Matt: He grew up in South Central L.A. He had, he was carrying a gun when he was 12. He, he was radical, Black Panther, one of the founding members of the Black Panther party in LA.

0:52:49 Thomas: He was I didn't catch

0:52:50 Matt: Yeah, No, he, uh, he went and did international trial work in Rwanda and South Africa doing human rights work, uh, He's tried more than a thousand cases and he's just the nicest guy. No,

0:52:57 Casey: Wow. Wow,

0:52:50 Thomas: That. That's awesome. Yeah, he's pretty cool. Let's a good clip, though, to play, um, and a lot of it was, very was moving. Uh, compelling testimony.

0:53:06 Clip: She was sworn in, she was swore in on January 1 of 2021, and on about the 3rd of February, at probably 5, 5:30 a.m. in the morning, there were people outside her house cursing and yelling and calling her the B word and the N word, and just, I mean, it was bizarre.

0:53:36 Clip: The neighbors called the police and disbanded, you know, disband the group and, you know, it was just, I mean it was, I seen anything exactly like it before.

0:53:50 Thomas: Talking about the security threats, you it's interesting. So Fonny Willis ended up moving out of that house. I mean, we can't go through it all, but it's, it is very compelling story and it's not related to this. Actually. It's at first because of gang cases, right? Seems as though there there There are a lot of threats to her and also probably just the general Georgia racism, I imagine, like just the kind of like the simmering status quo racism of just like, hey, a Black person got elected to something, we don't like that. And so from inauguration day, she's already receiving racist and sexist kind of threats and abuse. And that it ends up being pretty material because it's why she moved out of the house, according to her, and he stayed there, and she left the house. And and then by the end of it, they're like, yeah, nobody lives at this house because it's just like, we don't even bother, it's too dangerous. Uh, then we get his talk about the cash, I think might be maybe worth playing that a little bit.

0:54:09 Casey: He's I'm sorry. Was he called us a witness by the defense or the prosecution? OK, that makes sense. All

0:54:45 Matt: We're getting to the DSA now. Yeah,

0:54:48 Casey: She called out of order from Bradley, was a defense witness, right? Okay,

0:54:50 Thomas: They they said they would come back to Bradley because of all the, oh, yeah, that's right, there's that I

0:54:53 Matt: Show up in the morning too, he had to claim to the doctor's appointment yeah, to get him later. Yeah,

0:54:55 Casey: Right, right, right, yeah, you said that, yeah,

0:54:58 Clip: Daughter moved or left the house that she owned, did say anything to you about having a large savings of cash? Oh, no, she, oh, no. See, maybe, excuse me, and I'm not trying to be racist, okay? But it's a black thing, okay. You know, I was trained, and most black folks, they hide cash, or they keep cash.

And I was, no, I always keep some cash because I've been places and just because of the color of my skin, for example, I took a fellowship at Harvard when my daughter was just a, if I might, you know, when I was, just she was just, you know, maybe three years old, and I remember going to a restaurant in in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And I had a American Express credit card and maybe a Visa or whatever. And I have a lot of what they call traveler's checks.

I don't even know if they still have traveler's checks, but traveler's cheques. And there was a sign that said, you know, with your credit card, for whatever reasons, the man would not take my American Express credit card. So I pulled out my Visa card.

And he wouldn't take my Visa card, so when I put on my traveler's checks, he said, we don't take checks, now this was usually traveler's check, this is money, I had a ten dollar bill, I'll never forget this as long as I live, and uh, he said, uh, uh, the bill for my wife at the time, well, Fanny's mother, Fanny and myself, was like nine dollars and 95 cents, I had an ten dollar bell, it was all that, that. I'll always remember that.

0:56:42 Thomas: And then, okay, as good as a lot of this testimony is, it's very interesting, he's also in the middle of a documentary, so you can be able to see a lot about him, very interesting, that's why he's traveling back and forth from LA. They even talk about Fonny's DJ boyfriend named Deuce, which, okay, just, this is too, this Anyway, but there is a bit of a Perry Mason moment the other way here, because he's, he gets pretty defensive about the cash stuff. And the lawyer asked him like, well, why did you know that that was an issue? You that maybe he heard testimony earlier. And he says, oh, the lawyers instructed me about that. You like, OK, seems like he got through that until we get to toward the end. And just does not end very well, I don't think.

0:56:55 Matt: And his equipment and yeah, yeah, Yeah. Yeah.

0:56:57 Casey: Yikes,

0:57:26 Clip: Miss Merchant, I just wanted to know when you were prepped by the lawyers, when was prep session was? I just got off the plane on, what was it, Tuesday night. I think I was probably drooling at the mouth, I was so tired, so it must have been, I got in Wednesday. It must have be Wednesday. Okay. And did you talk about any of the testimony from yesterday, or watching the news reports or anything like that? Oh, absolutely. You can't cut the TV on without seeing this. The first thing, and I listen to conservative radio a lot, and you know, last night for For five hours, all they talked about was his case. So you were aware of what the testimony your daughter gave yesterday was? Yeah. I mean, unless you don't cut the radio on, unless you don't cut the television on, unless you don't read the AJC or any other New York Times or whatever, which I do every day, of course. So is it fair to say nobody instructed you that you were under the rule of sequestration? Right. And I was not under subpoena either. Thank you all.

0:58:32 Matt: Oops.

0:58:32 Thomas: Then they clarify later, like, yeah, actually, he was under the instructions.

0:58:35 Matt: He definitely was.

0:58:36 Thomas: Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, it's yeah, a very mixed. It ends up being like, OK, and the problem, just to spell it out, it doesn't seem like he's in trouble or anything. Once again, it just seems like, correct me if I'm wrong, the judge is going to use it to evaluate credibility of his testimony. Right. So if he's heard everything everyone said and he's able to craft his answers around that, you would perhaps or just if any witnesses like you would you trust their testimony quite as much as you might otherwise, I guess.

0:58:37 Matt: Yeah, I

0:58:38 Casey: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

0:59:08 Casey: I think the the judge has to decide how much, how weight to give, give that. And it might be that you might be, there are plenty other reasons to to find him credible to outweigh that that particular issue.

0:59:20 Thomas: Right. Final witness, really, of any substance. There's a couple that don't really end up mattering, but Bradley is back. And this is the rest of the hearing, basically. This is it. And I watched this whole thing and almost nothing happens. It's an argument at every turn. So every question, it's more arguments about privilege.

0:59:38 Matt: For the most part, they're just trying to get him to admit that he told Ashley Merchant at some point about this relationship and that the date was earlier than the affidavit date. That's, that's all they're trying to really get out of him. And they're pulling very, very hard. And this is just isn't going to work. Um, yeah.

0:59:49 Thomas: They try so many different theories. It even seems like maybe he deleted his texts because they literally have, he pulls out his phone and is like, oh, nothing, nothing to see here, and she's like, well, mine has it, so that's weird, you guy is very sketchy. Um, it only gets worse. It starts bad. And, and Matt was telling me, you know, yeah, he's definitely, it seems to be, not you telling the truth, and I wasn't entirely sure. And then when it got all the way through it, I was like, ah, yeah. Okay.

0:59:58 Matt: Yeah.

1:00:18 Thomas: I see what you're talking about.

1:00:17 Matt: He's not telling the truth yeah but

1:00:20 Thomas: He's, uh, he is lying. Um, there's so much to go through, and we decided that there's a privilege conversation that's, it's really interesting, and they go about it different ways. They're trying to get him to, you, it, or to be able to talk about stuff. And, and Matt, you and I were talking, is this such an interesting issue. We thought, and, and we've already gone so much on this. We thought we would do maybe a privilege conversation specifically around this testimony. So we'll go into Bradley's testimony in more detail for patrons only. What do you think?

1:00:45 Matt: You want the privilege, you can go to patreon.com/law. They

1:00:48 Thomas: Love it. Love it, so we're not going to go into too much detail here. We'll sum up by saying they try a million different theories, and we'll go through them probably in that Patreon bonus, but it doesn't seem to really work. He's not forced to say anything, really. They don't get to, like, I don't know, waterboard him or anything, so he just continues. Hours. It really is hours. It's just like, "Okay, I'm not answering that," and they argue with the judge. They've got, you know, so many lawyers coming and trying their different tactics, um.

1:01:13 Matt: Throw everything at him.

1:01:14 Thomas: Also mentions that he met Shaquille O'Neal at the, uh, at Fonny Willis's, uh, or whatever, so I thought that was cool.

1:01:20 Matt: One of the few things we learn about him in this, in hours of testimony. Uh, I think

1:01:24 Thomas: Uh, and until up and until we get to, things go pretty south in terms of this, uh, guy. I do want to put in a little detail, though, that that was interesting, this. He does say that Wade is still married. So his divorce actually isn't done. I think we might've said it was, But uh. According, well, he, they say it's still ongoing. Going. Uh, seems to be, maybe they, yeah, I don't know how that divorces work, but that's what they say on this day anyway, and

1:01:41 Casey: It. Oh, huh. Okay.

1:01:43 Matt: They reached a settlement. At least pretty sure, yeah. They have a temporary agreement, that's what's going on, so it's not final yet.

1:01:56 Casey: See. Yeah.

1:01:57 Matt: But it's still

1:01:57 Casey: Yeah, I just Google it. Temporary divorce settlement.

1:01:59 Matt: Right, yeah, so it's, it's not final, that's all it is, yeah.

1:02:02 Thomas: So it's, yeah, it's just not finalized, which I thought was interesting, but they have some sort of temporary agreement. Okay. Um, so Bradley does say, like, oh, as far as I know, the divorce is still ongoing, because he's no longer Wade's attorney. He, that agreement, somehow, we don't know exactly why. Then we get to this, one, talk about friendship. Friendship is a big theme of this one. He gets asked if you, you and Wade aren't friends anymore. Right. And he's like, uh, I thought we were. He's like.

1:02:30 Thomas: Yeah. On my end, we're still friends. And, and, Cross is like, oh, uh okay. No. All right.

1:02:29 Matt: Pause. It's now what?

1:02:37 Thomas: But not what I have here, but, things go pretty, dark here.

1:02:37 Matt: He says, but

1:02:40 Clip: Consider myself. I will. You. That disagreement was that there was the allegation made against you. Correct? That was incorrect, there was not an allegation, but you assaulted -- but you sexually assaulted one of the employees in the firm? That is incorrect. But yes.

1:02:51 Thomas: Is it? OK, yeah.

1:03:09 Clip: Yes, there was an allegation that you sexually assaulted a member of the firm. Correct? Yes, that was an allegation. Yes. And as a result of that allegation, you left. Again, you are no longer business partners with Mr. Ray. That is correct. The

1:03:03 Matt: Also yes

1:03:22 Thomas: So we find out why he left.

1:03:24 Matt: This is on cross, so I just want to point out, he's a defense witness, he has given the defense nothing, he's helping the cross, he's hoping the government, pretty well here, and then they decide to jump in, in case you're talking about this, kind of debating this, because I think maybe just leave well enough alone. He hasn't said anything, but she wants to go in on him.

1:03:28 Thomas: Yes. Yeah, I had the same note. Oh, Casey, got.

1:03:43 Casey: Yeah, it's funny, you had the same thought. It seemed to me to be, I don't know why you wouldn't go down that road if he's, he's a defense witness, right? Like it, guess I, to me, it seemed like a pretty significant potential bias, and so if at some point some of those text messages came in, or other information came in, because the judge, at the end of this, does leave open the possibility of recalling him, and making him testify.

1:04:06 Thomas: That's right. That's a good point. Let me reset what's happened real quick, just in case people haven't kept straight. This is Bradley, who initially came in and came in like a wrecking ball with with the Ashley Merchant thought it was going to be like, so remember when you texted me about the relationship and how it started early? And he was like, don't remember that. And then that was how it started.

And so what is interesting is I had the same thought because up until now, he's been pretty helpful to Wade and Willis. Cause he said, I didn't text you that. No, that text is not like, he seems to be helping like, because they're saying, well, you did text me that they had the relationship and he's saying, no, didn't, didn't do it. Never said that, which, you know, could Could be because he totally blew it in terms of attorney -client privilege and he shouldn't have revealed that.

Or who knows? That's speculation. But I had the same impulse that you had, Matt, which is like, wait a minute. I just realized this isn't Ashley Merchant grilling him here. This is the being like, hey, just last thing. Oh, one more thing. You're a piece

1:05:04 Casey: Yeah.

1:05:04 Thomas: Of shit, right? And like just firmly making him admit he's a piece OF shit, which does seem weird. Weird. Casey, now that I hear your take, that makes a lot of sense.

1:05:13 Casey: I mean, I think it's just

1:05:14 Matt: Yeah, just in case he's always thinking ahead.

1:05:15 Casey: I mean, it's a strategic decision, though, somebody else might have done, done something differently, and, and, you know, maybe it wasn't the right choice based on how, how both of you responded to it. To me, I thought it was, you know, I thought it's pretty cool, but it's,

1:05:27 Thomas: Yeah,

1:05:27 Matt: And to be clear, the reason this matters is because he had testified before that the reason he left the firm was privilege. And we're going to have that privilege conversation.

1:05:34 Thomas: We're going to get to that.

1:05:35 Matt: You'll have the privilege of hearing it. But I just want to point out, the reason this is so devastating is because she's totally undercutting that and showing that there was actually a very good and understandable reason that he left the firm. Not just because, by the way, that he was alleged to have assaulted one of these his employees, but also because he was alleged to have sexually assaulted a client. So at that point, yeah, it's pretty bad.

1:05:51 Thomas: Oh, wow.

1:05:53 Casey: It's pretty weird. And apparently the prosecution had that, it sounded like, right, that she had, that she actually had the client there ready to testify.

1:05:57 Matt: Yeah. The client, ready to go. He denied ever having heard her name, which didn't seem very credible to me, but

1:06:05 Thomas: And had questions about that, but he sort of is saved by the, not the bell, but like the judge is like, all right, we don't need to go down this road. But this is, yeah, this is crazy. I mean, on one hand you're right. Like I was convinced by Casey's argument, but also the fact that But this cross-examination is what totally blows up that kind of privilege claim feels that feels a little risky for the state to do. Right. But I guess If you figure, as you mentioned, Casey, the judge has committed to reviewing some of this evidence in camera, meaning without letting us see.

1:06:12 Matt: Not happening.

1:06:25 Matt: Yeah, yeah. I

1:06:36 Thomas: And maybe they're figuring, maybe the reasoning is, look, one way or the other, this could come out. Not only that, maybe it could also be, it's not like it's going to look great if you wanted him to be credible and then the other side can be like, yeah, but also he sexually assaulted a client. And, you know, like it's not if it comes out and it looks like you strategically didn't want to ask it, then that also looks bad. Right.

1:06:36 Matt: Know, yeah

1:06:56 Casey: Yeah. And I think, that it was pretty clear, even if he wouldn't testify to it, and even though he kept asserting privilege, that he had said something to Ashley Merchant about the two of them, about D.A. Willis and Nathan Wade being in a relationship prior to the date they said they were in a relationship. That might have planted that seed in the judge's head. And so, you it's pretty clear that that's what they were getting at. And there are text messages that indicate that.

1:07:17 Thomas: Yeah. And so giving him a motivation for maybe wanting to hurt Wade. Would be helpful.

1:07:25 Casey: And Exactly. Yeah, and the other possibility really is just that she was like, well, you know what, I was prepared to do this and I'm going to plow forward with it regardless Of

1:07:34 Thomas: Err on the side of truth and something. Yeah, pretty much.

1:07:35 Matt: Can have my moment. But this ends the hearing. This shuts everything down. Pretty much they're done at this point.

1:07:41 Thomas: They try to call the as you said, they try to called the employee or the paralegal who started his own firm. I like that. Austin Dabney. And basically the judge is like, we're not going to go down this road. They have all this proof of him having, well, honestly, I'm kind of surprised. I'll save it for maybe the privilege discussion. Cause I'm surprised. I Uh, want to know the legal explanation, why the judge did kind of put, uh, stopper on this because it is directly impeaching his earlier testimony. And it seems like that'd be legitimate, but we'll save that that for another day, Matt. We'll save that for the, uh, the, the bonus.

1:08:10 Matt: Much to discuss.

1:08:11 Thomas: Well, we got through it. That is, wow. That was a lot. That was so much fun though. I really enjoyed learning about that. And, uh. What are your thoughts now? He has said he's, he's done the in-camera review or is going to do it, I guess. And the judges said, I guess that could open up further things, but assuming it doesn't, he gonna hear arguments. Likely, uh, do you either of you want to offer any sort of predictions? Is how you think this went, how the judge is gonna rule.

1:08:34 Matt: Sticking with it. I still don't think she's going to be disqualified. Don't think any of this is great for anybody involved except maybe the judge. Um.

1:08:40 Thomas: His Instagram is crazy right now. Yeah.

1:08:43 Casey: Uh, Agree with Matt. I don't think it really moves the needle very far. You know, I think she was not the greatest witness, in my opinion. May have been some about various witnesses' credibility to some degree. But in my opinion, I don't think that there -- about credibility -- that would believe that there was some type of financial benefit that she was getting sufficient to disqualify her. Like, I just don't think that the, I don't think the defense established that and it's their motion. They have to establish that.

1:08:43 Matt: Up and

1:09:04 Thomas: Yeah.

1:09:11 Matt: There was no evidence, like no actual evidence Of

1:09:13 Thomas: Well, Let's repeat real quick. We, we open this with, which is, all right, what does the judge want to see? What do you say he wants to see? Did there, some, you know, uh, motivation here, financial, whatever, or did the relationship start sooner than they said, right? Were those kind of the two things? Don't really see any evidence of that, you know?

1:09:27 Casey: Yeah,

1:09:31 Matt: Favorable defense. I don't see that. How they can argue this on this evidence. I

1:09:34 Casey: And the judge was pretty clear what he was looking for. Like we said at the very beginning, really it was just looking to determine whether or not they'd had a relationship, whether they were still in a relationship, and whether or not there's any financial benefit conveyed as a result of that relationship. At the end of the day, I think those are the issues that it's going to stick to. I just don't see how the defense has proven that. And again, it's their burden. It's not like a trial where it's the state's burden to prove the case. And I think that they may have raised some questions about credibility and so forth, yeah. You know, I don't think that the DA came across looking great, but I don't think it was sufficient to meet their burden of showing an actual or apparent conflict of interest. But I -- you could be wrong about that. Yeah.

1:10:12 Thomas: We'll see how this -- 35-year-old judge -- is going to rule, or we'll see if we have more, we may have more. We may have more to do depending on how that in -camera review went. Um, thank you guys so much for giving so much of your time. Truly, this was an absolute pleasure. I really loved doing this. It was so fun and looking forward to doing it again sometime.

1:10:28 Casey: Yeah.

1:10:32 Matt: Think it's going to be anything like This again, but well Maybe We'll see, we'll Say anytime, the

1:10:32 Casey: All Right.

1:10:33 Thomas: Probably not.

1:10:37 Clip: This podcast is a production of Opening Arguments Media, LLC, All Rights Reserved. It is produced and edited by Thomas Smith, who also provided the fabulous intro and outro music used with permission.