WTW22: The Defendants Testify

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:42 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Where There's Woke. I'm Thomas Smith. That over there is Lydia, coincidentally with the same last name of Smith. How you doing?

0:00:48 Lydia: I am. I am doing okay and excited to see where we go from here, and also a little horrified and hesitant.

0:00:58 Thomas: Yep, yep. No, there's nothing to be excited about whatsoever, other than finally getting to kind of tell the story I've been working on for a month.

0:01:06 Lydia: This is new to me. He hasn't spoiled anything to me, yeah.

0:01:09 Thomas: Yeah, we should have said that from the outset. I just frequently just say, like, I can't fucking believe this, and then I don't tell her what it is. Yeah.

0:01:14 Lydia: It's been over a month that I've been waiting to find out what the heck is going on here.

0:01:15 Thomas: Yeah. So Lydia is the listener along with you all. I guess I'll say, too, this is this is now a part three. So make sure you've heard the other two parts in When we last left off, we allowed the state to rest its case. According to state, just to summarize, three suspects all confessed. They felt better about having told the truth, got off their chest, you know. I confess to the murder. We're ready to be hanged for it for some reason.

0:01:21 Lydia: Yep.

0:01:42 Lydia: The sheriff's deputy, uh, brother agreed. So, Yeah.

0:01:46 Thomas: The sheriff's brother. Yep.

0:01:48 Lydia: Oh, is the sheriff? Okay. The sheriff's brother agreed.

0:01:48 Thomas: Mm hmm. Reverend.

0:01:51 Lydia: Reverend.

0:01:51 Thomas: Agreed.

0:01:51 Lydia: Man of the cloth.

0:01:52 Thomas: Yeah. Called them a slur And agreed. Yeah, yeah. So that's where we were. And stupid me, I was thinking, ah, that's how they did it. That's how the chorus confessions might have gotten through, because, you know, there was kind of some interesting procedural stuff there that, you know, the jury wasn't there for the parts that mattered maybe, and then also the the judge seemed to have not really much patience for it. So, damn, that's how it happened. And then I, you know, read the rest of the transcript. So first up for the the defense is Ed defendant Ed Brown.

And I'm thinking, well, shit, are they going to not let him talk about, you know, like, how's this going to go? Like, do they, I know they get fucked over, but I'm like, How do they get fucked Over? You know, Like, is it just that one of those things where like, because the judge ruled that the confessions are fine, like is he not allowed to, talk about or something? No. So Ed Brown is 30 years old, married, has has three kids. All the defendants are married, actually. All three. One of them doesn't have kids, but the other two do, which is, just you makes it more depressing.

0:01:52 Lydia: Yes. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

0:02:51 Thomas: Ages 5, 10, and 13. And testimony starts normal enough. Like, did you kill the guy? No. Like, here's what happened. I was asleep. Yeah. Like And also he talks about, having you had a good relationship, as I said, Ed Brown, by all accounts, seemed to have a good relationship with this guy. Not sure if the guy sucked or not. I would put big money on it. But I don't he testifies know. That they had a fine relationship and there seemed to be some trust there and all that. And he basically has, a you bit of an alibi in that he was is at home. And there was also, he was with Yank and some other people that we don't need to get into. So he has kind of an alibi and they don't end up, for some reason, they don'T end up talking to any other of the alibi people, but, but their wives.

0:02:59 Lydia: I I was just gonna ask, you know, at home presumably with his wife and his three young children that could have also testified to his whereabouts.

0:03:38 Thomas: Yeah. The so the wives all testify, but not really anybody else. It's kind of weird. So then we get to this question. You heard Mr. Alcock and the sheriff of Lauderdale County, Mr. Stevens and Preacher Stevens testify about the confession you made in Meridian in the jail, Tell the jury whether or not you told the truth at that time. No, sir. I didn't tell the truth. Why did you tell something that was not true? Mr. Cliff called me out of the jail Sunday evening. Who did? Mr. Cliff Dial. Is me stepping aside. Sorry. You know how often I think I've said this. I think something we it's have to teach our kids a little bit. Like there's no villains in real life, you Know, like You like it's not Lord of the Rings and you got like Sauron and he's like this pure evil thing and blah, blah, blah. Like you're kind of watching like kids movies and it's like, yeah, I mean, that's not very real. Someone's

0:03:43 Lydia: A Caricature.

0:04:28 Thomas: Not usually just, yeah. Totally evil for no reason. I think I found a major exception to that. And that is Cliff Dial. This is the worst piece of shit I think I've ever encountered in anything ever. This guy fucking was evil, and I, okay, you got Hitler, you got a mass murder, you know, you got other evil, this, I think what's more disturbing is this guy was evil but just was fine in society. Like he was, it's not that he hid his evil, it's that the kind of evil he was was okay to white society back then, and he was in a position of general esteem but was just fucking, like, it's just sickening, this guy, this Cliff Dial. So, okay, back into this testimony. Who did? Mr. Cliff Dial, he told me to come out here. Oh, I gotta re-up the content note for every single part in this series.

0:04:29 Lydia: Oh.

0:05:17 Thomas: Note for, you racial, fucking horrendous violence and stuff against black people. So He told me to come out here that he had heard that I told that I killed Mr. Raymond. I come out of the jail house and I said, I declare I I didn't kill Mr. Raymond. He said, come on in here and pull your clothes off. I'm going to get you. I said to the last that I didn't kill him. There was two more fellows about like that there, and they was whipping me. They had me behind across chairs, kind of like that. I said I didn'T kill him, and THEY PUT IT ON HIM AGAIN, AND THEY HIT SO HARD I HAD TO SAY, YES, SIR.

MR. CLIFF SAID, GIVE IT TO ME AND I WILL GET IT. HE TOOK IT, AND IT HAD TWO BUCKLES ON THE END. THEY STRIPPED ME NAKED AND BENT ME OVER A CHAIR, AND I JUST HADTO SAY IT. I COULDN'T HELP IT. THEY WHIPPED YOU HARD THERE? YES, SER, I WILL SHOW YOU. There are places all the way up there. Did you bleed any? Did I bleed? I sure did. How did you tell them about the light and the lamp and such things as that? You know, asking like, how do you, you know, all the details of the crime and all that.

He answered, they whipped me so hard and I said,I didn't know anything about them. And they put me down the third trip and said ain't that so? He said, what about the lamp? And I said I reckon Henry Shields done that? They said, you know more than that. They put me down again and they whipped me so bad I couldn't sleep that night. When did this whipping take place? Sunday evening. They whipped that boy first and then they told me to come on out. When Mr.

0:05:35 Lydia: My God. Oh. My God. Yeah.

0:06:43 Thomas: Alcock and Mr. Stevens and his brother and some other gentlemen were talking to you on Monday night, did they threaten you on that night? No, sir. I was scared because Mr. Cliff said I had better tell it like I told him. I I was scared. When did he tell you that? When he was whipping me and after I got up. He told you what? That I had better not get off what I had told him. That's the reason you told Mr. Adcock what you did? Yes, sir, that's the reasons. If you could see all the places, you would say a train didn't move any lighter. You told these gentlemen what you told Mister Cliff on Sunday when he was whipping you. Yes, sir, you tell the jury and court that that is the reason that you told it, because of what Mr. Cliff Dial said to you? Yes, sir. Yeah, no, they, the jury heard all that, there wasn't, the jury wasn't like out or anything, um, nothing excluded, not just like like, yep, yep.

0:07:31 Lydia: Heard it in detail too, because the judge didn't even hear all that stuff. Wow.

0:07:37 Thomas: There's, so much more. I is Cliff Dial. Well, that'S a funny question because he was kind of introduced initially as a sheriff's deputy. And I was like, okay, well, he's a sheriff'S deputy. And that sets up the key dynamic, which is, evil, racist, torture cop, good cop, Because they have him do all the awful fucking physical abuse, and then once they get the actual confession, they've sort of laundered it by having just the reverend and his brother sheriff come in and say, say, oh, you just make sure to tell me the truth, don't you know, you're safe here, meanwhile this fucking monster of a person, this demon, has threatened him, saying is gonna happen again if you don't do it, they're just gonna gonna beat a person until he's the guilty murderer, you

0:07:39 Lydia: Who's Cliff Dial exactly, is he like a warden or Okay. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Oh.

0:08:27 Thomas: What, what is Ed Brown supposed to do, what is he supposed to be, what are any of these poor black men supposed to do, like, it's just so inconceivable, like, but the reason I said it was interesting about Cliff Dial is because actually Cliff Dial was just a dude. Because I came across it in something else that, holy shit, another several hours away from being able to tell you that I just found tonight. Yeah. I think he was just deputized.

0:08:49 Lydia: My gods.

0:08:54 Thomas: Yeah. I didn't even fucking think about that.

0:08:54 Lydia: It's just a civilian.

0:08:56 Thomas: I forgot about. Yeah. I forgot About that concept because to me, that's so fucking stupid. But yeah, he's in the transcript as a sheriff's deputy. I'm like, okay, that makes sense. He's an underling.

0:08:57 Lydia: Oh. My gawd. Like Literally. Wow.

0:09:07 Thomas: Nope. I think he's just a fucking guy. I'm almost certain. Unless he like retired shortly after this and became just a guy, that's, but I don't think so. I think, I he was just told by the sheriff, like, hey, I deputize you to do certain things. Yeah.

0:09:07 Lydia: Okay.

0:09:23 Lydia: And then the sheriff now is evil, like literally evil, because the comments that he was making to these men were like, we're here, we're protecting you from everything that's out there, and if he deputized like a civilian outside to bring in and do those things to them, then that's monstrous.

0:09:41 Thomas: I think it's beyond obvious that the sheriff's knew what was going on. It's not obvious that he specifically deputized Dial to do these beatings, but like fucking probably, you know, he for all we know, he deputize them to like go arrest them, which is kind of what happened, you know, but yeah, I mean, fucking they're all the same piece of shit, they're all horrible racist pieces of shit, it. And so the thing going from here, there's God, there's so much more. But but at this point, it's actually plausible and it's actually backed by some other evidence that this could be the first that Stennis, remember Stennis, what this is about, kind of John Stennis, the fucking prosecutor It's actually kind of likely that this is is the first Dennis is hearing about this? I is not a hundred percent, but like it seems like this kind of took him a little bit by surprise.

0:09:52 Lydia: 1930. Whatever, yeah. Mississippi. Yeah. Yeah.

0:10:21 Lydia: Okay. Yeah.

0:10:34 Thomas: And so you might think, well, shit, if this is the First time he's hearing about this, you just, you're a prosecutor and you just hear one of your defendants say he was literally tortured into a confession. What, what do you do at that point? Cause I'd think that it'd be like, your honor, I'd fucking mistrial or something, I don't I, yeah.

0:10:44 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Being the representative of the state, right, you're like, okay, uh, let's pause.

0:10:56 Thomas: This does, I don't know, I'm not a lawyer, I don't know what the procedure is there, but I would think it would be like, can we have a fucking recess, and then you talk to the judge and you're like, I didn't know that these people apparently beat this guy and all three of them into this what, I need to stop so that I can, you see if you know, there's all all the kinds of like double jeopardy concerns and all that bullshit, but like something other than nothing, I guess, would be what I would expect him to do. But what did John Stennis, giant of the Senate, the most noble man, amazing guy ever, who name a ship and a space fucking thing after, what did he do?

Well, you know, yeah, after some more, a little bit more testimony and not much, actually, John Stennis cross-examines Ed Brown. And I wish that I could just read you this whole thing, because I, when I first read this, I, my mind was just like, I can't even, I can't believe it. To say that he badgered this guy is an understatement. He just goes on and on. Let me read a little bit of it.

0:10:56 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just

0:11:56 Thomas: You heard Mr. Adcock's testimony. It was misprinted as Alcock some places. That's why I said that. The transcript is rough. Sorry, but I think it's Adcock. You heard Mr. Adcock's testimony. Yes, sir. You heard about what the other two men said you told them. Yes, sir. You they told it, right? Didn't they? I told it because Mr. Dial had done beat me. So know that. I know you say that's why, but you did tell them just what they said. Answer. Yes, Sur. After he got through beating me, he told me I'd better say what I said to him. But is it true that you told Mr. Adcock and these other gentlemen on Monday night, just typo, just what you said you told them? He's asking the same question now the third time.

0:12:33 Lydia: Yeah.

0:12:33 Thomas: Are you talking about when this man got through whipping me? No, on Monday night, when Mr. ad cock and the two gentlemen who were on the stand there, you told him just what Mr. ad Adcock told told here on the stand? Yes, sir, I told them because I was scared. Adcock told a while ago just exactly what you told him in the jail there. Yes, sir. The reason I did tell it was because Mr. Cliff had beat me so, and after you got through you told Mr. ad cock that you felt better. Yes, sir, but a man will say anything when he is beat up like that. When Mr. Adcock first talked you that night, you didn't tell him about it. No, sir. He said a while ago that when he talked to you alone that night, you wouldn't tell it all. But when all three were together, you told every bit. Mr. Cliff told me I better tell it.

0:13:19 Thomas: When you first talked to Mr. Adcock, you didn't tell it at all. Yes, sir, I told him all. And it just goes on forever. And he's basically like this badgering fucking idiot just saying, but you told them, but but you told them, but you told them the truth. Was it the truth then? But you told him that, but isn't that what you told Him? And. I decided to copy and paste it and search it. There's a hundred and forty-five questions in this cross-examination.

0:13:24 Lydia: Yeah. Oh.

0:13:43 Thomas: It's the longest part of the entire trial. So He just learns that this poor black man was fucking beaten into a confession, and his response is to say, "Oh, I know what I'll do, I will badger this guy for a fucking hour," saying, "But then why did you say that you did it? Why did you do it? Why'd you say it?" She did, why'd she say that? She asked the same question forever.

0:13:43 Lydia: My gosh, wow. Well, If that, the state's only, you part of their case is the testimony of those who already spoke, then he's just, trying to save the credibility of the testimony that's been given by those sheriffs. Right, so, so... That's probably all that's in his mind is like, "Oh my god, I have to like, save, save my side of this." And, you who cares what this person went through, because I don't give a shit because I'm a racist.

0:14:16 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:14:27 Thomas: And and the best you could try to say for any of these fucking racists involved is that they just which is still what, what you say about police nowadays when they fucking do this, is you're like, "Well, they, they think the guy's guilty." So that's what justifies. And it's like, yeah, okay, sure. Why do you think he's guilty? Cause he's black. Oh, okay. There it is. So you're just racist.

0:14:45 Lydia: Remember when his granddaughter was like, but my grandpa wasn't. He was a man of his time, but he was not a racist!

0:14:49 Thomas: But Yeah. Yeah, I was going to bring that back actually. Yeah

0:14:54 Lydia: I've just been thinking about that this whole time. Like, oh god.

0:14:58 Thomas: Yeah, I mean, his granddaughter, well, fucking, she was not that far away from this. So I've scrolled down a bit I'm just going to read this to give an indication of kind of how this went. Now his line of questioning is like, well, where did all these details come from, essentially. And so he's like, everything about the lamp chimney, you told that? Yes, sir, the way they told me to tell it. You told him the way you went in the side door, he made me tell all that. Who did, Mr. Cliff, when he was whipping me, did Mr. Cliffe make you say that you had a foot axe? He said, what did you hit him with? And I said, nothing. He said, what did you hit him? Whether I'll beat you to death and I said a stick. He said, no, and I said a foot axe. Yeah, so that's just indicating how this went, like, know, he, according to these defendants, they just beat them until they said the right things.

0:15:03 Lydia: Yeah,

0:15:44 Thomas: They Wanted to.

0:15:44 Lydia: And They Guessed. Until Until they, you know, Made them happy. That was like a Making a Murder. Hmm.

0:15:45 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and what's interesting about the foot axe thing is they never found a foot axe, it's a different kind of axe, I guess, they actually never found one. So, guess that was a good enough answer for Mr. Cliff Dial, but it actually might not have been the real answer.

0:15:53 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Was Wrong Yeah.

0:16:03 Thomas: I think they end up saying like, oh, he threw it down a well or something. It's like, okay, sure.

0:16:04 Lydia: Okay. Convenient.

0:16:08 Thomas: I don't, all right.

0:16:09 Lydia: Enough.

0:16:10 Thomas: Yeah. But then he says right after this, the night Mr. Adcock was there, Mr. Dial wasn't there. No, sir. You hadn't seen him anymore after he whipped you. Yes, sir, but I don't reckon he's seen me. I can't emphasize enough how much he's doing the same. Like at a certain point, couldn't you object and be like, asked and answered that? I mean, maybe that's fucking new legal technology, but he's still going off. This is, listen to this. When I read that paper to you yesterday, you said you killed him, didn't you? I guess that must be the guilty plea probably. Yes, sir. But that was on account of that man.

Man, didn't you see Mr. Adcock this morning and tell them that what you told him in the jail was the truth? I done that because Mr. Cliff said he would beat me and I was scared. Aren't you still scared as in like, well then why, why aren't, yeah. Why aren't scared she too to tell the truth now? And he says, yes, sir, but I'm going to tell the truth. I ain't never harmed him. That is what you called Mr. adcock down there in the trail that you were going to to tell the truth? Yes, sir. After he scared me, after Mr. Cliff scared me. Like he just has to say it a hundred thousand.

0:16:27 Lydia: Why Now Yeah.

0:17:08 Thomas: It keeps going on and on and off and on. It's still going. 145 questions. Mean, I've scrolled all the way down pages now and it's still, still going,

0:17:20 Lydia: Well, Nuts. Maybe Stennis just didn't have any other, ideas for questions.

0:17:24 Thomas: Yeah, one thing I thought was interesting coming to the end. Here's about his arrest. They arrested you not long after they found the body, question mark, I guess. Yes, sir. I come up there and in about 15 or 20 minutes Mr. Cliff throwed pump gun on me. Was that at the house? Yes, sir, I was out from the house of peace, so 15, 20 minutes, I don't know exactly how much time that means from, you know, the literal discovery of the body.

I think, I feel like Ed Brown is saying 15, 20 minutes after he came up there, which wasn't right when they found the body, but either way, I don't know how much fucking detective work they did in that time. Me just read the end of this. Cause again, it's still the same question. I I'm surprised the judge didn't intervene and go like, We got it, man. We fucking got it. And you say you're afraid of Mr. Dial? Yes, sir. Which do you think would be worse, to have Mr. dial there and be afraid of him or confess to killing Mr. Stewart? I didn't kill Mr. Stuart. You knew that you were confessing to killing him.

No, sir, you knew what it meant when you said you helped kill him. I was telling a tale when I spoke that. Didn't you know it would hang you when you told them that you killed them? Yes sir. But you went on and told that Monday night. Yes, sir. I was scared because he beat me. So, and you told it again today. I Was still scared. Are you scared now? Yes, Sir. That's the end. And then on redirect by Clark, again, the one of good lawyer.

0:17:43 Lydia: Wow. Yeah,

0:18:49 Thomas: So By on redirect, Clark says, you say the jailer in Meridian told you the man would get you again. Yes, sir. The boy that works there come up there and I told him I didn't touch the man and I would die on that. Mr. McGee, the jailer, told you they would get you again if you denied it. Yes, sir. He brought the boy up there to see if I denied it, where was Mr. McGee when they whipped you that Sunday afternoon? I didn't see him to know him when they whip me. Anyway, so the point of that was they had this fucking jailer be like the threatening, you know, the guy in the fucking background doing the, you know, because like, yeah, sure, cliff the dial wasn't there when the sheriff took the confession, but the jailer was.

0:19:34 Thomas: So it's like the jailer was there both times. The jailer's like, hey, I'm, I'm gonna be watching you, essentially, so you better make sure you tell this story the same. That's Ed Brown. And then next is Henry Shields. This one is interesting, by interesting I mean, like, obviously the main thrust of this is that some fucking white racist tortured some black people into being guilty, like, that's obviously your, but terms of like, like, just for pure curiosity, I, I've tried, I just can't help wondering, like, were any of them involved or, or not you, complete, because, like, somebody did kill the guy, and, like, I mean, maybe it's just some white guy that, like, is, like, oh, I can just commit murder because there's so much racism, I'll never be suspected ever. Like, it's like a superpower that white criminal murders had back then, probably. I don't know, this Henry Shields, in his testimony, he talks about his alibi, which is similar.

0:19:40 Lydia: Yeah yeah.

0:20:27 Thomas: It's that he was at home. He's the one who doesn't have any kids, and he tells a weird story, he left home that night, he says that it's because, like, woman was cheating on him or something, there's a weird, there's a sense in which, like, Henry Shields was the one who insisted he didn't do anything, but weirdly, he's the one that I actually, if I had to guess, if one of them was involved, I would actually guess it was him because tells a story about how he went to sleep, and then his wife, you know, he wasn't quite asleep, but his wife thought he was.

So she got up, and then he got up, and he saw there was this guy, Bob Gross, you running from around the house and through the yard essentially. And then he got an axe and threatened her with it. And they said, well, I didn't hit her with it, but, like, when she took the ax, it, like, hit her in the leg or something. And so it's kind of weird that you've got, like, well, he's, he has a story for why he left his house. He also has a story involving an ax and kind of justifying that there's blood on it,

0:20:47 Lydia: I was just gonna clarify that. Interesting. And

0:21:34 Thomas: You know? And so I was like, kind of like, Hmm, I don't know. You know, like maybe, I dunno, maybe there's something there. Um, which is weird because he denies it the most. On the other hand, who fucking knows? And I could be entirely coincidence. I mean, I don'T imagine that a domestic dispute at that time was that uncommon to be honest,

0:21:34 Lydia: There's blood. Yeah, with an ax seems pretty intense. But yeah, interesting.

0:21:58 Thomas: But The way she tells, so she later corroborates it, yeah, but What's weird is that, like, there's also another instance where when they first arrest him, he says some stuff about how he tried to shoot this Bob guy, and he, you know, like, he seems like he's a little bit in his state, so I don't know, it's a, it's a weird thing. And they say they never found this Bob guy, and they don't, you know, so, but, but who the fuck knows? Just, like, from a curiosity standpoint, wonder if it was him. But also, obviously, that is not the point and who gives a shit.

0:22:02 Lydia: Well, Yeah?

0:22:30 Thomas: But just for pure whodunit curiosity. Yeah.

0:22:33 Lydia: Yeah, for that true crime angle.

0:22:35 Thomas: On the other hand, I mean, look at all the detail in his story, and who knows, you know, like, maybe if he was lying, he's good at coming up with a lot of detail, or maybe he's not fucking lying at all. I don't know, because he says, "Well, where did you go then?" Yes, and then he says, "I went to my mother-in-law's. I left there and I went to Oscar's to spend the night. I left their about five o'clock and went on to Scuba.

I first went to Mr. James Boyd's. I met this boy, and he said Mr. Boyd was going to Electric Mills and that Daisy was going with him. I turned in at his house and asked this girl if I could go, and she said he had a load." I went on, like, it's like, he's mentioning 47 people that could falsify his story. So I don't know. I don't fucking know. But anyway, his statement is that like, He was so upset with his wife that he wanted to leave the country or or something. I don't know if that's exaggeration because I don't how he would. I feel they like had very little means to actually go anywhere back then.

0:23:11 Lydia: Angle yeah yeah

0:23:27 Thomas: And then they start asking about his arrest. And so he says, were you arrested in Meridian? Yes, sir. When were you arrested? I was arrested Saturday evening, I guess about three o'clock. Were you put in jail? Yes, sir. Were were in jail on Sunday? Yes, sir. Who came to see you there on Sunday? A lot of people come there. Did you have any trouble there Sunday evening? Yes, sir. What kind? A whipping spell, Mr. Cliff tore me up. Tell us about that, sir. Let me start back at the first when they arrested me. Mr. Cliff Dial and Mr. Pool, that big fellow there, and another fellow come there. Mr. Cliff and Mr. Pool come in the front door and this other fellow come in on the back, and they asked me what I was doing down here. I said that me and my old lady got into it. He said, no you didn't, you helped kill Mr. Stewart? And I said, no, sir.

0:23:26 Lydia: Yeah

0:24:12 Thomas: I stuck to it as long as Mr. Poole was with me. Mr. Pooke carried me on onto jail and give me to the jailer. And he left and Mr. Cliff Dial and them come back that evening and whip me. First, I tried to tell the truth, but he wouldn't let me. He said, no, you ain't told the truth. And I tried to stick to it. He whipped me so hard I had to tell him something. He says, Ed Brown done untold that you helped kill Mr. Raymond. I said, no, if there's a god in heaven, I ain't had nothing against Mr. Raymon, he could be at home walking around as far as I know. Then he, he basically does the same thing that they did with Ed Brown, where it's like, well, when you told them that you took part in this thing, I will ask you to state whether or not you told the truth. He says, no, sir, I was made to tell what I did.

Essentially he sticks to that kind of in the same way, but like this fucking Cliff Dial, he says he basically beat him like, three times and the first two times he stuck to it, and then on the third he was like, alright, I can't, you know, resist

0:25:06 Thomas: This anymore. Then they go into the evidence, and and so all the physical evidence is from him, so it's like that jumper that they thought had blood on it, the black, the axe that they said had blood in it, yeah, that and his story. For the, the blood on the jumper is, well, my mother-in-law gave my wife some meat and she wrapped it in that, that old jumper there. And the wife corroborates that. He says, like, yeah, we didn't use it anymore, so it's just been sitting there. It's like, okay, maybe. But he says it happened around Christmas, which is months ago.

But then again, I don't know why you would like, if you were going to lie, I feel like you would say it happened more recently in case the blood was like fresh or whatever. But, I don't want to dwell too much on it, but just because there's a bit of an interesting thing that happened when he was being fucking beaten. But, he, you know, he asked him, why did you confess? And he says, Mr. Cliff put me across a chair three times. He put me across a chair and whipped me with a strop and said it was hurting. I said, Mr. Cliff, I will tell the truth.

0:25:06 Lydia: Right hog hair or his hair yeah yeah

0:26:06 Thomas: I wasn't in it. He said, you ain't telling the truth, he put me down the second time, and I tried to tell him the same thing. And Mr. Guy Jack said, he's telling the true, so the other white guy there. And Mr. Cliff said, I wasn't, and so he keeps beating him, and then he admits to it. It's like, Jesus Christ, this Cliff Dial was like an evil piece of shit, head and shoulders above other evil racist pieces of shit. Crazy.

And so, want to read this part. You told Mr. Adcock the same story the next day. Yes, sir. Why was that? Mr. Cliff told me if I didn't tell Mr. Adcock and the other men, he was going to whip me again. He said, Henry, if you don't tell them folks the same thing you told us, I will get meat again. I had rather you all would kill me than let Mr. Cliff get me again. Now, cross-examination, um, did the same fucking thing again.

Instead of 145 questions, though, he only asked 65. It's just constantly, like, but you made that statement, but you may that statement, but like, here, I'll just read the beginning of it. You talked to Mr.

0:27:02 Thomas: Adcock, he told you you didn't have to talk. Yes, sir. He told you that you didn't Have to tell a thing. Yes sir. Mr. Dial wasn't there then. No, sir, he told you, that he wanted you to tell the truth. Yes Sir. He told you he wanted, you to make a free statement. Yes sir. He wasn't forcing you to say anything. No sir. He told, you that, were safe from danger then. Yes sir. And that he was going to protect you. Yes sir. Still, you went on and told what he said. Yes sir. And you were telling the truth about it. Yes Yes, sir. What you told, and I think that was a mistake. They actually, he, I think in the redirect, he corrects that. But anyway, what you told Mr. Adcock that Monday night was so? No, sir. It wasn't. What do mean by saying it was and it wasn't? What are you speaking about? Mr. adcock told you. And now I imagine like they're in both of their like deep Southern accents just got like incomprehensible to each other. I don't know.

0:27:51 Thomas: Mr. Hadcock told you that he was going to protect you. Yes, Sir. And he wasn't going to bother you. Yes, sir. Mr. Stevens told you the same thing? I mean, it's just that. It's like, oh, okay. Well, they said they weren't going to hurt you. Yeah, man. What aren't you getting about this, Dennis? Like. Either you suck or you're the dumbest fucking person in the world. Like, you don't understand what's going on here? 65 questions of that same fucking thing. And then, yeah, in redirect, he's like... When you say you told the truth, do you mean that you were telling the truth? And he just just corrects that little thing. He's like, no, now, as I understand you, what you told Mr. Adcock wasn't true. And he said, yes, sir, that's right. Um, and then we get Yank Ellington. Um. And Yank is.

0:27:51 Lydia: Did

0:28:26 Thomas: Happened to Yank was, if you can believe it, even fucking worse. Even worse. Because for one, he is 20 years old, married and has two kids. Two-year-old and a six-month-old baby, and was the other one who was living on uh Stewart's place, you but they didn't have as much contact. There is allegedly like they try to introduce a motive of like, oh, he once ripped you off for something, and I don't know where they get that information, but, he that denies it, but so his, you alibi, it's kind of similar. No domestic dispute, but his alibi is like, yeah, I was home with the wife and kids and the mother-in-law.

And he talks about like the work he was doing that morning. You know, he's got some detail about that, all that. And so, the morning after the killing, I guess, uh, and then he says, did you help kill him? No, sir, I didn't help, I didn't know anything about, he was dead. When were you arrested? Mr. Martin and them came and got me that night. I was home, I was at home. What night was that? Friday night.

Cut, and he, they was, so, remember, he, the, was the guy was killed either Thursday night or Friday AM. So, Friday night, so that's the order of things. Ed was arrested like, you know, that afternoon, like right away. And

0:28:39 Lydia: My god.

0:29:28 Lydia: Right.

0:29:29 Thomas: Then this, this is the next thing that happened. I think the reason I got a little confused is he wasn't actually arrested here, but he said he was, but here's what actually happened. Friday night, they come and get me out of bed and carried me to the house. Whenever they say carried, by the way, they mean like drove. It's weird they say that every time, but it's like that's, I guess what they called it back then. What house? Mr. Raymond's. They tied me up there with my hands together, that way to a tree and whip me.

0:29:55 Thomas: Who tied you, Mr. Martyn? Who was there in the crowd? Mr. Martin and his boys and Mr. Hal Bird and Mr. Cliff. Mr. Cliff Dial? Yes, sir. What did they do after they tied you? They whipped me good. Was that all? They hung me twice. They pulled me up to a limb twice. What is the mark on your neck? Note, a visible fucking mark on his neck that lawyer the can just point to. What is it? Mark on my neck? That's where they pulled me off the limb twice?

0:29:44 Lydia: Right? Oh my God. Oh my G-d.

0:30:21 Thomas: That was done with a rope? Yes, sir. They pulled you up twice on a limb. Yes, sir. Did it hurt you? Yes, sir. When they let you down, could you stand up? Yes, sur. How long did they keep you swinging there? Not so long. Did you ever tell them you knew anything about it that night? No, sur, I didn't tell them nothing. What did they do then?

Is the weird thing that happened, so that night, for some reason, this mob grabs Yank Ellington, and Cliff Dial is with them. He actually saves Yank. So he says, and this is, I mean, I would say that Cliff's making it up except it doesn't make sense, and also, um, Yank's wife ends up saying it too, so I guess this really happened. So the mob is, obviously they're fucking doing a lynching, really, really horrible, being strung up by your neck is like the one of the most painful things that you could possibly do, and they do that twice, and he's still denying it, I guess. Cliff, for fucking some reason, intervened and was like, all right I don't think he did it, and so Cliff stops them. He actually stops the mob from killing him at that time, and, Yank goes home. So he wasn't actually arrested then, that's, that was kind of why I was confused, I think, but

0:31:29 Thomas: You Know what, to him, what does it fucking matter? That's actually, I think, kind of makes clear how bullshit all this is. He can't tell the difference between when a white mob is doing a fucking lynching on him and when the law is arresting him. It's the same thing to him, because that's the reality of this fucking horrible racist nightmare. It's really interesting actually to think about that. He, he he, considered it being arrested, but he he wasn'T really arrested until Sunday. So then like he, you know, he got in bed and was obviously not in a good way. And then Saturday morning he went to his father-in-law's and then the lawyer asked, asks, who carried you to Meridian? Again, meaning who like drove you there. And he says, Mr. Cliff and Mr. Russell. Mr. Russel, who? Mr. Mussel, what stayed on that place, Mr Russel Dudley. What time did they take you to meridian?

0:31:04 Lydia: Yeah. Right, yeah.

0:32:17 Thomas: I don't know exactly what time, but it was pretty early. Was it Saturday? Yes, sir. After dinner or before? Before dinner, I think. What Which did they tell you they were taking you that way for? For safekeeping. Did anybody bother you on the way? After we got on the other side of Livingston, which is, I don't know if this matters or not, but that's, I believe, once they were in Alabama, so like in a different state. Seems to be deliberate that like they kind of drove them over state lines, but also it doesn't fucking matter, apparently, because Cliff Dial will beat anyone anywhere. So maybe that is a coincidence. I don't know. But they took me out and whipped me again and and told мне tell what I know about it. Who did? Mr. Cliff. What did you tell him? I had to tell him. He He asks who had The Chisel and he said I have it. I told him I didn't, and he kept beating me until I had to say it. What else did you tell?

0:33:03 Thomas: Did you tell about Ed Brown and Henry Shields? Yes, sir. Why did you say that? Did you say because he was whipping you? There's an objection probably leading or whatever.

0:33:10 Lydia: Leading. Yeah.

0:33:11 Thomas: Tell why you told that. Because Mr. Cliff was beating me so hard, I had tell it. I told a story because I didn't know anything about Mr. Raymond's death. So I just found that particularly weird and horrifying. So Cliff Dial saved him from the mob. And then like a day later, I don't know why, maybe because of some other information or something, he picks him up and then he beats him himself until he confesses. It's just fucking these psychos. Like, I know it's just.

0:33:35 Lydia: It's Insane, sorry.

0:33:36 Thomas: Yeah. And then basically the testimony goes kind of a similar way of, about you the sheriff's and the confession and all that.

0:33:43 Lydia: A quick question on Yank. He picked up from his house before dinner or

0:33:44 Thomas: He it said it was his father-in-law's.

0:33:50 Lydia: He still wasn't even arrested and in jail at that point? On

0:33:53 Thomas: On the way to the jail, he beat him and Then he, yeah, they're keeping him in Meridian jail so that they don't get lynched, essentially. It's like a little bit out of the way. So cross-examination by Stennis is, like, I actually didn't count this one, but it actually looks longer than the last one. So he's still doing the same thing. But I just wanted to read one little quote here. Mr. Dyle didn't doing anything to you yesterday? Well, no, sir. But I was still scared. You came here today, and after you had been in the courtroom about half the morning, Mr. Dial hadn't done anything to you? No, sir. You were never scared? Yes, sir, I'm scared of all white people. I just wanted to read that because, like, yeah, man, I get it.

0:33:54 Lydia: The way to the jail Meridian, got it. Okay Right. Right yeah Understandably.

0:34:29 Thomas: Jesus Christ. How could you not?

0:34:31 Lydia: Yeah. Stennis, who was so against the anti-lynching legislation? Yeah.

0:34:31 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Weird. Weird, but it's probably because of, like, a state's rights principle stand, and they have states rights to do what, lynchings? So recessed after Yank's testimony, then what's weird is comes in, and this is part of the reason why it's believed that Stennis didn't entirely know this know, the confessions were shitty. Now, that I strikes me as not mattering at all, because what he did after knowing the confessions were tainted is worse, like he made it worse. So recesses, and then comes back, Stennis says, well, we have new stuff we want to do, you and might wonder, can you just do that? And the answer is no, like once the state rests its case, it it rests its fucking case. That's how it works. So Clark objects, he's like, the state has closed its case.

This is an unusual fucking thing. Like, what, what are we doing? Yeah, the state rests his case and Stennis, so the thing Stennis is trying to bring in is this fingerprint expert. And Stennis says, district attorney states, states that the reason this testimony was not developed and available at the beginning of the trial was that the district attorney was reliably informed that all the defendants had fully confessed to their implication in the crime, and the district attorney himself had arraigned all three defendants in open court, and the defendants Ed Brown and Yank Ellington and there entered pleas of guilty to the charge of murder, and it wasn't considered necessary to develop the fingerprints, and the state was therefore taken by surprise with the defense presented by the defendents.

So that's what his reasoning is. It's like, yeah, okay, I didn't know I needed to do this for my case, which I don't know how the law normally works, but it still strikes me as, like, well, yeah, but you closed your case, like, isn't that, if closing your case means anything then it would mean, like, well, but I changed my mind, then you

0:34:38 Lydia: God. Yeah It's A polite way of saying that. Okay. Right.

0:36:21 Thomas: Can't, you know, like, well if you wanted to, it's like the reasoning is like, well, you don't understand, I want to present more case. It's like, oh okay, I didn't know you wanted to do more of your case, never mind, case unclosed. Um, so the court says, well, it is of course out of order to present this now, but I can see how the state was misled as to the necessity of any such testimony, and I think it is proper to admit it at this time for the benefit of everybody. Yeah.

0:36:22 Lydia: No.

0:36:44 Lydia: This feels like mistrial, then, then you just start over.

0:36:46 Thomas: I don't know, that particular, like, issue didn't come up really, but I think it doesn't, it's because it doesn't matter because, like, all the rest of the stuff is so important. Then this is where the, the lawyers kind of sucked. Like, that's another part of this problem, is that they didn't have good representation, because Clark is like, well, but we don't have time to get another expert to whatever. And so they say, tell you what, why don't you do it? And then I'll give you as much time after to get an expert to rebut. And they just never do. So I'm not really sure why, um, but it's probably just because they, three of the four lawyers at least, think they're guilty and are probably just as racist as everybody else. Clark doesn't, but he also, either from being not a great lawyer or being ill or whatever, doesn't, he didn't do this particularly well here, I don't know, maybe he was outvoted or something, who knows. But that was a part of the not being represented adequately.

So Stennis says, I will introduce this testimony now if the attorneys for the defendants are willing. And Clark says, you may introduce it now if you wish, or you can wait until later, it will only take a short time for us to finish. And Stennis say, all right, finish your case first then.

It's like in the transcript, like, okay, I'll just finish fucking the case that no one's gonna obviously believe at all, and this is where the wives testify, I'm, Kate, uh, Kate Ellington, so that's Yank's wife, um, I think Stennis tries to, like, know, bolster Cliff Dial's rep a little, little bit, know, because, you, on cross-examination, he says, been something said about folks getting after Yank.

0:36:46 Lydia: Okay yeah Wow. And

0:38:17 Thomas: Fuck you, man. Fuck You. Are you kidding? Sorry. That's how Stennis presents what's the lynch mob that came and fucking tortured him. There's been something said About folks getting after yank. The night that Mr. Stewart's body was found. Mr. Cliff Dial took up for him, didn't he? Yes, sir. And protected him. Yes, Sir. And then what I do like is that Clark gets up for redirect and is like, he didn't take up for them until after they handled him pretty rough, did he? And she says that night when they carried him to the house, he took up für him when they hung him twice. He didn't let them do anything else after they beat him. Did he help hang him? I don't know. What kind of shape was he in when he got home? He was beat pretty, pretty bad. How do you know Mr. Dial took up for him? He told me, he, he said, he told the men not to bother him no more. Um, so yeah, I think that did happen, again, it's just a weird fucking thing, like yeah

0:38:23 Lydia: Yeah.

0:39:08 Lydia: Well and Then 24 hours later then he decides to pick him up himself, and yeah.

0:39:13 Thomas: And then Stennis, I guess, thinking this fucking matter, does a re-cross examination, I didn't know you could do that, just because that's a pretty good line, he didn't take up for him until after they handled him pretty rough, you know, like going right into that. And then Stennis tries to do his own version of that because he stands right up and says, you say Yank told you himself that Mr. Dial took up for them and told them not to bother him anymore. Yes, sir. He told me that. Witness dismissed. Like he just tries to get that in there. Wow. What a guy. Before he did a bunch of beatings, he did this one thing. So that that was Kate Ellington the next is Irina Brown Ed Brown's wife obviously and not much here really I mean yeah she corroborates everything but it doesn't fucking matter but the only thing interesting here is that she talks about how Ed Brown had not only Raymond's pistol but his shotgun so like the murder

0:39:19 Lydia: Yeah I

0:40:03 Thomas: Victim lent Ed Brown two of his guns

0:40:07 Lydia: But Then he was murdered with, with not a gun.

0:40:09 Thomas: Yeah. It just shows, like, the trust that he had. Like, this, this is a trusting relationship. Asked her, like, "Oh, he had Raymond's pistol, didn't he?" He's like, "Yep." He returned that pistol like that morning, I think, actually, before he died. And, but he still had a shotgun. Yep. Still had a shotgun. How long had he had it? Oh, since we got there, he lent it to him right away, so essentially, like, a couple years, so, like, if the murder victim trusts a suspect with the guns, that says something. I don't know, so Then Mary Shields, the Henry Shields, his wife, she's the one with the story about the, she was cheating on him thing, and it's, it's juste very weird. But she does corroborate, like, "Oh, he got an axe to hit me, and I took it, and it knocked a place on my leg right there." She points to it, maybe. Yeah, so maybe it's just a weird coincidence, and that all happened. Probably. Who knows?

0:40:35 Lydia: It's Freaking terrifying domestic Violence with an axe involved. Like, geez.

0:40:57 Thomas: Yeah. I mean, not that this makes it better, but, like. They kind of established, like... He wasn't really going to hit you with that. And she's like, no. He was threatening her with it, and just she took it from him. Not that that makes it better, but it's, it's not like he attacked her with an ax is all I'm saying, confirms the, you jumper carrying the fresh meat thing, puts a little more detail on it, Stennis has a quite lot of cross cross-examination here relative to the other wives, and I think it's because he's Stennis doesn't maybe buy the whole Bob, whatever, story, Bob.

0:41:10 Lydia: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:41:27 Lydia: Gross.

0:41:28 Thomas: And so he asked her, like, well, did he take all his clothes with him, do you take his shoes, do you leave them, do you know, whatever, and I don't know, she has, it pretty, defined answer to all of it, so yeah, maybe that, that just fucking happened. And again, the fact that she says the meat thing was a Christmas, I don't know, that just, like, that makes it a little more plausible to me.

Cause wouldn't you just say, like, yeah, oh, it was a week ago to keep the blood fresh, you know, like, to, so I don't know, maybe that's all just purely a hundred percent coincidence, then the defense rests, and this is when the state gets to do its bonus, extra, extra patreon but only case that it does, the extra case that they get to do for some reason, and so he has a fingerprint guy, but the testimony is kind of weird, he basically testifies that Ed Brown's fingerprint was on the lamp thingy, he did this analysis, but this is not like, you know, this is 1934, this is fingerprint stuff, he's talking about matching fingerprints and he says he has a match.

And on cross-examination, he asks, "So you've completed your analysis of it?" "I completed my part when I put those prints in there." "You've reached your final conclusion?" "Yes, sir." "These specimens on the lamp, state whether or not they appeared to have been recently made." Answer: "They hadn't been there long, there was a crust over each one of them, caused by the heat, either old age or heat will cause a crust." So wait, either old eight, like, doesn't that, "There's no, no further questions," which I don't know why there aren't, but, like, okay.

0:42:03 Lydia: Wow.

0:42:54 Thomas: So you're saying either they could have been there a while or the heat will cause a crust on them. I don'T know. That's just fucking reeks of bullshit. Ed Brown's prints could have Been on everything. Cause worked with he a guy. So I know what that seems like nothing to me. Puts on this LG Temple guy and I don't know if they all just do their first two initials just for anonymity or was that just what they did in the 30s yeah but there's like four of them in a row TD Harbor LG Temple TH Nicholson and EL Gilbert four in a row is that a coincidence yeah he got it yeah he was next he was like is it or is it not true that there's a sucker point. Oh, you beat me too.

0:43:14 Lydia: Their style. Yeah. PT Barnum. No, they all did that kind of stuff. Suckers born every minute. It I was in that musical

0:43:34 Thomas: Yeah. Oh of course there's the musical. I don't know what the hell you're talking about, but yeah. No wonder, you know, whenever, you know, a reference that catches me by surprise, it turns out there's a musical of it or something.

0:43:34 Lydia: Yep. Pretty much.

0:43:45 Thomas: Pretty people knew how much I'm not joking. Like that's actually true. Like there've been multiple times in our relationship because I'll reference something thing and she'll be like yeah yeah and I'll be wait you know that she's like it's a musical it's from a musical or there is a musical about it anyway has this guy and uh not that any of this fucking matters at all but just because I read this transcript 400 times he has a guy testify and it feels like it's kind of an own goal because he has LG Temple come on and say once saw that Ed Brown had Stewart's keys this LG Tempo guy was like I went to get something from Stuart, and he had to go get it from his safe.

And so he had Ed Brown give him the keys and there was money in the safe. Cross-examination is like, when was this? Two years ago. And that's it. He doesn't even bother asking any more questions. And actually Mr. Clark moves to exclude it because it's irrelevant and immaterial. The court overrules it, but I would gone have the other way if Ed Brown frequently had Stewart's keys and the keys are what opened the safe to get the

0:43:48 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:44:46 Lydia: Then Yeah.

0:44:46 Thomas: Money that they allegedly stole or were trying to steal Yeah.

0:44:47 Lydia: Then He didn't need to kill him, yeah.

0:44:50 Thomas: Like, what I don't even get what they're trying to prove with this, it's the weirdest thing. Think he's trying to establish that he kept money in there and like I guess that would, that because the keys, the keys by the way were left in the safe like from the murder, so they, they murdered him, um, the safe was empty, yeah, I guess we don't know, the story of the confessions is they didn't find any money, so I don't, I don't, no, I don't, what the point of that is, I, it almost strikes me as making Ed Brown seem less guilty to me. Then there's kind of where Clark really messes up a little more.

I don't, and I don't know how much it matters, but the the author makes a bit of a big deal about it because is setting up these witnesses who were again at the fucking beatings and he has them come on, but he doesn't have them come onto say like, here's what the confessions where, has them testify to say we didn't feed them information, and it goes on for quite a while, then at the end Clark is like, we object to all this, the court sustains it, the judge sustains it and says strike everything except that they didn't feed them the information.

So the effect of that is like, I don't know how much that matters because like the jury's there, I always wonder that about current trials when the jury is there and

0:45:06 Lydia: Was taken, or the safe was empty, I guess. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

0:46:02 Lydia: Know,

0:46:02 Thomas: Then the they're liked strike, don't disregard that, it's like, okay, I can't forget that I heard that though, like so I, they heard all all the stuff kind of re-upping the confessions, but and by the way, mentions the beatings, which you would think would be at least good for the jury to hear, but I guess it doesn't matter, but like that is all stricken from the record and the only thing that stays is just that they didn't feed them information, which is like, cool that you, would have been better off not striking that from the recorded, he, you shouldn't have of objected to that because it's better to have more mentions of like the awful beatings than it would be to get rid of that and just keep the thing that Stennis was actually trying to prove.

0:46:02 Lydia: Yeah.

0:46:39 Lydia: Simple

0:46:39 Thomas: But I didn't like this cross-examination where, okay, so he made these confessions right and then, you know, picture Stennis sitting down and then the other lawyer getting up, was that before or after the whipping?

0:46:39 Lydia: Assertion, yeah.

0:46:51 Lydia: Yeah.

0:46:51 Thomas: That was after, you know, essentially that kind of thing, far from my idiot naive thought that like, oh, the awful, the abuse was not it, you know, that's how, the jury didn't hear about it, no, no, all three suspects testified to it as you heard, then they had these people I just said testify to it again, basically confirming it, they're not even hiding it, they do talk like, oh, yeah, but it wasn't really the beatings, did it. It was just that, you know, they were telling the truth. It's fine. And I think they believe themselves, you know, these like people have really racist beliefs about black people. And, I think, they actually believe themselves that like, yeah, no, they're guilty. We just had to beat them to get them to say it, and then that's fine, then if that's not enough, who would be the last witness except except Dial Cliff fucking, so they're like, we um call our last witness, literal Satan, and

0:47:14 Lydia: Cliff Dial, yeah. Yeah.

0:47:47 Thomas: Then Satan walks in and he's like on fire, you know, and he has a tail and the horns and they're like, are you the worst human that's ever existed, he's, yeah, yeah, that's me, you've heard of and me, he just, Cliff Dial just says it like, he just, yeah, mean, he does the same thing where he kind kind of minimizes like, yeah, but you know, they were already saying it or something, you know, like that kind of shit. It's hard to not just read this whole thing because it's just this person is fucking psycho.

But there is a quote that may have genuinely affected things because newspapers picked this up. Not now, but once, it you was at the Supreme Court and stuff, like got the whole of the transcript, just to give you a fucking idea, talking about when was being basically lynched and he intervened, just to give you more information on that, I'll read a little bit of this here, this is on cross examination by Clark, and by the way, yeah, Cliff Dial states witness, it wasn't like, oh, Cliff, can can you testify for the defense about how obviously these confessions were coerced?

0:48:07 Lydia: Right. Yeah.

0:48:46 Lydia: Star

0:48:46 Thomas: No, this this is Stennis being like, here we go. I'll get Satan.

0:48:49 Lydia: Witness, yeah.

0:48:50 Thomas: Yeah. To close out my case here. And on cross-examination by Clark, they say this. Now, when you went up there Friday night and befriended Yank. Wow. Who had charge of him then, a bunch of them was there, I expect it was 20 men, yeah, so the lynch mob essentially were they whipping him, it first started around the fire there, Sam land, and I went by the houses and told the Negroes to come up there and then went down to Dan Camps and came back, and they had Yank and Manny Brooks, by the way Manny Brooks, whoever that is, there were other black people who were whipped and abused as a result of this.

They, yeah, they didn't end up being defendants by some stroke of luck, but yeah, like lest you think it was only these three people that they abused. There were, there were more than one other that also got caught up in this, but didn't get caught in the trial. Did they whip them in your presence? Yes, sir. Did the hang them there? Well, you know, they didn'T hang them. They pulled them up, but they DIDN'T hang him. Of course they DIDNT kill Kill him. No, sir. How many times did they pull him up?

I didn't see them pull him up but one time. Did they whip him any after they pulled him up. Yes, sir When did you first offer your friendship to him? I begged them before they started to not beat the Negroes up. Not sure I believe that but they wouldn't listen to you. No sir. They whipped them a little anyhow. Yes sir. A right smart. And here's the quote that ended up making a lot of newspapers when when the Supreme Court decision was reached. All right, smart, asks. The And Satan answers, not too much for a Negro. Not

0:48:52 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:49:21 Lydia: Victimized as part Of This, yeah. Yeah.

0:49:33 Lydia: Okay. Okay. Oh,

0:50:17 Thomas: As much as I would have done if it were left to me. They whipped him and hung him up there and you asked them to let him loose? Yes, sir. On home then? I suppose he did. He left there? Yes, sir. What did you say, he told them before he left there that he seen Ed Brown kill Mr. Stewart? Did anybody ask him if he seen Ed Killam? Yes, sir. Some of the boys did. Asked if you didn't see Ed kill him. And he said yes. I guess he means did, but it's hard to translate that.

That But was after the whipping and after he was hung up there. Yes, sir. He's saying like, okay, essentially they got Yanked to say that Ed did it, and then obviously the lawyer's asking like, yeah, but was it because he was, you know, being beaten and hung and all that, Cliff doesn't seem to get the implication, but this is where you're, do like, do you know you're being evil, or are, are you, you an idiot? Like, it doesn't matter, but like, I'm just curious? 'Cause you, he says was after the whipping and after he was hung up there. Yes, sir. He would have said that he didn't, if He had been asked. Cliff dial says, I don't think so. I think he would have had better sense than that.

0:50:20 Lydia: My god. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.

0:51:18 Thomas: Like, like, does he know know that he's doing, you know, like, I just, I can't help but wonder, even though it doesn't matter, but like, okay, so if he had more sense, he would just never say anything, and then they would just kill him, because that's what happens, like you're fucked either way, like what do you mean more sense? Like the sense you would have is you just, I guess you just die, and dann that's it. It's so fucking evil, I can't even fathom it. There is a lot more on Clifftile. But that's basically the end. There is one last and it's Dr. Wall comes back. But I don't think it's, he just talks about the bloodstain. He's like, yeah, I think fresh it's blood. And then the cross-examination is like, you but sure? And it's like, yeah, but there's no good reason. He's like would you really be able to tell? Yeah, kind of, you know, it's fucking nothing. Thing, and that's the end, and they, they rest, uh, you want to like guess what the jury found?

0:51:20 Lydia: Yeah. Right.

0:52:08 Lydia: Guilty is my

0:52:11 Thomas: Yeah.

0:52:11 Lydia: Guess.

0:52:11 Thomas: Guilty. And, here's the last fucking thing, insane thing from, I guess, this part, this, the judge declined to pay the lawyers the 25 fee that you usually pay for representing indigent clients, because he thought he was afraid it would stir up the mob, like, just to give you an idea of the racism. Quote, "After the trial, the judge refused to pay Clark and the others the customary $25 fee for representing indigent defendants, because he feared the public reaction if he authorized the payment." So it's like, you already killed them. Like, this is how fucking horrible these people are. You already did it, man. Like you killed these three Black men. You've lynched them essentially. In some, you've legally lynched them, and but you're still like, yeah, but if I pay the people who even dared to kind of barely defend them in the trial and

0:52:11 Lydia: Yeah, yeah.

0:52:25 Lydia: What? What? Okay.

0:53:02 Thomas: Do a shit job, who yeah, who I may do it if I give them the customary $25, like, don't what might happen to me, that, you level of racism.

0:53:03 Lydia: They had to court appointed. Yeah.

0:53:12 Thomas: Like how do you even, how, yeah, that's, that's what happened, it was all there, the jury heard every fucking thing, it's even worse than you would have imagined, I didn't even do justice to how horrible this was, um, the kind of terrorism that this is, you I I don't understand how, how Black people even fucking coped at all. How were they not just in a constant state of pure anxiety and trauma? And I guess the answer is maybe they were, you know, and that's, that's, they talk a lot about that generational trauma. A, that's another reason that I really wanted to do this story.

0:53:13 Lydia: Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hm.

0:53:48 Thomas: Of people, of human beings, had to exist in a state like that where at any moment could happen and a mob of white people would kill them in the most horrible way. Like at any moment, I don't know how, how you could live like that. And It's, it's one reason why I just think we're like 0.001% into properly rectifying history.

0:54:01 Lydia: Yeah.

0:54:11 Lydia: Atoning for, yeah.

0:54:12 Thomas: If actually, no, we're at negative 10%. We've gone backwards, actually.

0:54:12 Lydia: Yeah. I think that's fair.

0:54:17 Thomas: That's what really motivates me, in, in a lot of we, this, don't know the half of it. We don't know the fifth of it. Yeah, I'm aware of a lot of these things. But when you actually read it and you read how recent it is, and you think, I mentioned their kids, you know, two of the three of them had kids. Those kids,you are our grandparents, essentially, maybe our parents, and if they lived in that state of mind, they, and, and they were raised that way, and their kids, you hadn't changed much, you 20, 30 years later, it's just like, this is so fucking recent, and think about what life was like, it's also a reason I wanted to contrast, remember we talked about parody of white privilege, that was Stennis's biography, he was born and then someone like handed him a fucking They're, like, you should be a lawyer or anything. No, you don't have to apply. Just come into law school. Awesome.

0:54:43 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He Insisted on his admission

0:55:05 Thomas: Then they're like, you should be, yeah, you shouldbe a representative. Cool. You should be the, this, you should bethe district attorney. Okay. And then you contrast with what the sharecropping lives of these black people was. Like, it's just the It is insulting to all of our intelligence. The The idea it just makes me think about when Sam Harris had Charles Murray on, to Say, like, yeah. Here's the thing. Black people's IQs, they're just not as high. The idea, that we're on anything like a level playing field, and that you could just test some Black people, and you could test some white people, and be like, wow, looks like the white people perform a little better. Yeah, it be anything to do with the racial terrorism that happened for hundreds of

0:55:05 Lydia: To law school. Murray Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:55:46 Thomas: Years, like the level of stress they have from that, the, what's left them more impoverished than white people, like, all these, we have a phrase for it, it's systemic, all racism, those things combined, you think that's going to have no effect on a human being might perform on a test, blessed, so I we have not begun to account for the actual trauma that's been inflicted on Black people in this country, and I think we've gone backwards, and I think we continue to go backwards, and we're denying history even more now than probably we did 30 years ago, you know, it's getting worse, it's such an injustice, that it drives me insane, like, anytime I hear someone talk about how racism is over, it's like, even if I granted for some reason that insane idea that, like, yeah, okay, it's all done now, well, what about all this shit that was never atoned for at all, ever, like, in any way?

Think, think about the material finance, think about, and just this one little story we're looking at, you already see so many signs of, like, how the hell was this anything like a level playing field? All the white people, they own the fucking land. They own the houses. All the Black people are sharecroppers. That's a horribly, economically abusive situation. You're getting paid a fraction of what you should to basically

0:56:35 Lydia: Do

0:57:01 Thomas: Work for, like, it's slightly better than slavery.

0:57:00 Lydia: All the work Yeah.

0:57:03 Thomas: You know, you're, you have no rights. By You the way, you in this constant state of could be killed any moment by a fucking mob. And also just look at the like monetary differences there. Like they can't own a house. They're renting. The person who owns the house can just tell the, you know, the angry mob, yeah, go ahead and break in.

0:57:04 Lydia: Go

0:57:20 Thomas: And it's just all that little stuff. And just this one story alone, it's just not comparable. And it is like insulting to even consider that someone could believe that there is anything like a level playing field, given how, not that long ago this was. And this isn't the end of it. This is 1934. This is barely even close to, like, things changing. And that's within one lifetime. That's, 80-whatever years ago.

0:57:19 Lydia: Ahead Yeah.

0:57:44 Thomas: That's one person's lifetime. You that's not that long ago. So anyway, that'S case. The There is, as I much as I've mentioned to you on how interesting this is, everything that I've been saying about like, fucking, this is so interesting. This is so fascinating. I haven't even gotten to that yet. Like, cause the, what happened after the process The of this getting to the Supreme Court is so fucking fascinating. And it's at least, you know, like a little bit more positive, it like you gives us a chance to not be maybe entirely bummed out.

0:57:44 Lydia: Okay.

0:58:13 Lydia: Some Like hope surrounding the journey. Yeah.

0:58:17 Thomas: There Are characters coming up, any one of whom would be so much better to name a fucking building after than John fucking Stennis, who, you heard what he did in the trial, it gets worse, there's more, there's more about what Stennis did that makes him worse, so that's my teaser next time on Where There's Woke, we're not even at all done with how much John Stennis sucked in this thing. And I think it's already disqualifying, like already, fuck you. You shouldn't have had anything named after you. Fuck you. It's even worse. That's coming up next time on Where There's Woke. Thanks so much for listening.

0:58:17 Lydia: Yeah.

0:59:07 Thomas: Does this suck? I don't know. Like what, what is this? Is this any good? I don't, is