SIO398: Hot Women In Your Area

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:17 Thomas: And welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 398. I'm Thomas Smith. That over there is Lydia Smith. How you doing?

0:00:23 Lydia: Hi. I'm doing well. How are you?

0:00:26 Thomas: I'm okay. You know, I don't know if you want to talk about it, but oh, no, we gotta do this show. I am doing great. We got through another month pretty much. That was cool. We have Seriously Awful Movies coming at you real soon. We were trying to get the other stuff finished. That sick for an entire frigging month and our kids being sick also really set us back. But I think November, we're finally going to do it. We'll be fully all caught up.

0:00:27 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah.

0:00:50 Lydia: We're going to make it happen. Yeah, mm

0:00:52 Thomas: No nonsense. We got it. So today's show, very excited to have Nicola Thropp on the show. What's she going to talk to us about?

0:00:59 Lydia: -hmm. Today, Nicola is joining us to talk about menopause. This is a really important area of discussion. The Mayo Clinic did a study back in April of this year, 2023, and was was able to extrapolate how much money has been lost via working time per year. Yeah, they looked at 4,000 participants in the United States, and 15% of those participants said they missed work or cut back hours because of menopause symptoms. And using that information, they found that it would be about $1.8 billion in lost working time per year due to this. Additionally, just over 1% of those participants said they ended up quitting or were laid off because of their menopause symptoms. So it's, you know, really important that we figure out how to fix this.

There was another study in England, a longitudinal study with 3,000 women, and what they found was if you reported at least one disruptive symptom at the the age of 50 related to menopause, you are 43% more likely to have left your job by the time you turn 55. Yeah. So this is a very real situation that women are dealing with. UK is actually ahead of the US a bit in this area. They tried to add menopause recently as a protected characteristic. This was last year in 2022.

0:01:22 Thomas: Oh, wow.

0:02:28 Thomas: No kidding. I mean, it should just, I don't give a shit about the economy or the companies that lost money, but I hope the people, you know, I know if I know our capitalist nightmare, I'm sure that billion dollars was not coming out of their pockets. Mainly the companies are probably coming out of our women's wages and yeah, I would hope it would be protected in some way, at least under disability or what? Like something sick time.

0:02:33 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. So they try to call it out specifically in the UK, and it ended up being rejected on the basis that it could be construed as discriminating against men. Yeah. And, of understand that. And you know I'm more familiar of course with the United States protected classes than I am with the UK. I imagine they're probably pretty similar.

0:03:02 Thomas: Oh my God. Yeah, I have no idea because that's nuts. I mean, you wouldn't say that about pregnancy. Would you say that men have to be off at the same amount of time?

0:03:16 Lydia: Yeah. No, that's true. Right.

0:03:22 Thomas: I get that we want parental leave all for parents, but it's not the same. You wouldn't you wouldn't say it's the same amount and timing of time that you need off. I wouldn't think. I don't know.

0:03:27 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, I don't think so. And they also tried to propose piloting menopause leave for companies, and that was also rejected. The UK found that it was not necessary and, in quotes, counterproductive. And I have no idea what that means.

0:03:49 Thomas: Yeah , I don't know what that means. Time Any off in their minds would be counterproductive. It.

0:03:50 Lydia: Yeah. So, I said, this is something that is pretty critical to figure out. It impacts a lot of people throughout the world, you know, over 50 percent, just over 50 percent of the population are going to be experiencing this at a point in their life. And Nicola is here to talk about this and kind of get to the bottom of some of these pieces.

0:04:17 Thomas: And definitely educate me because I had no idea that this caused that much disruption at that age. And I think that that's part of the problem is not knowing that. So, um, go over to Nicola who, uh, before, just before we hit record joked that she was just some random person. And, uh, I'll just leave it at that. Um, as always, patreon.com/seriouspod, and you can avoid the annoying ad break that, you know, non -patrons are about to hear. And you can hear our seriously awful movies, uh coming out very soon. We're working on that right now.

0:04:24 Lydia: Yeah.

0:04:53 Thomas: We'll have it out in a few days and, um, more stuff that hangout for November. We 'LL get that scheduled. That was, oh, we're going to play more code names this time. Can't wait. So, plenty of good reasons to go to patreon.com/seriouspod, including not having to hear this.

0:04:53 Lydia: So excited. Hmm.

0:05:10 Thomas: Random woman we found, how are you doing today? Doing

0:05:13 Nicola: I am fine, Thomas. How are you?

0:05:15 Thomas: Well, uh, Throp, of course, and I sound like shit and I'm sick, so fortunately I have Lydia here to you, the much more pleasant voice On this Side of the mic, so

0:05:23 Lydia: Yeah, a woman in the driver's seat. Watch out!

0:05:25 Thomas: Uh, uh, Good Times, yeah

0:05:28 Nicola: We're taking over.

0:05:30 Lydia: Are, we are. And how fitting that we're taking over because this episode is about menopause.

0:05:37 Thomas: You have any more, or is that just It, usually Okay, If you're gonna take over, You gotta have more Than that You Gotta

0:05:38 Lydia: That's it. Yeah. No, it's fine. I'll take over.

0:05:44 Nicola: Just mic drop. That is how it's going.

0:05:45 Lydia: Yeah,

0:05:47 Thomas: Have a punch line, you Can't, you gotta do the setup and the punch line, it can't just be the setup, because I'm like, what's the, where are you Gonna say, like, because The men are gonna pause and And listen to The women. I thought you were going to do something like that.

0:05:47 Lydia: Yeah. Now what? Yeah. Oh, that's good. That's why you're the comedy. No, know, we went to QED in September, which was so much fun. And one of the talks that I got to attend was the menopause talk that Nicola chaired and and I think brought together called Hot Women in Your Area, Why Everyone Needs to Know About Menopause.

0:05:59 Thomas: Okay. Oh, That's such a good name for it.

0:06:19 Lydia: Real hot women.

0:06:20 Thomas: Excellent title. Well done. 11 out of 10.

0:06:21 Nicola: Thank

0:06:21 Lydia: Yeah. We wanted to bring Nicola on because that panel was just, it was really fantastic and great eye -opening in so many ways. So we invited you on to join and so happy that you accepted and you're here.

0:06:36 Nicola: I am here. Thank you for having me.

0:06:36 Lydia: Yes. So, Nicola, why don't we get started? Can you kind us a little bit about why menopause? What's your story here?

0:06:45 Nicola: Okay, so why menopause? At the start, I want to tell your listeners that I am not a medical professional. I am just a woman and is a topic that's become really important to me because I am now 42 and I realized about 18 months ago that I think, you know, I was experiencing lots of symptoms and I just kind of didn't really, I knew something wasn't quite right with myself and I couldn't really put my finger on it.

And I actually undertook some menopause champion training, that's a thing that we have in my workplace, and I undertook this training and I thought, oh crikey, a lot of these symptoms are things that I have been experiencing. And it sort of put them all together and it was like, I keep describing it as a bit of a light bulb moment. And thought, crikey, I think this is what I'm experiencing, this, this all kind of makes sense.

So that really kind of set me off on my journey. But, you know, at the time I was still only 40, 41, and thought, do you know what? I think I've been experiencing some of these symptoms even into my late thirties and this isn't what I was expecting. And it made me quite simultaneously pretty sad, but also pretty angry that I was getting to this point in my life.

Knew the menopause would happen to me at some point, but getting to this point in my life and knowing nothing about it, like literally nothing, and you haven't been able to stop me talking about it since. Really, that's basically it. Yes.

0:08:12 Thomas: It's so cool because coincidentally, completely coincidentally, um, I was listening to, to the New York Times and they did a big article in February actually that was about how, um, this treatment, you know, HRT, and like it's, it's actually, you know, pretty amazing, but because of these circumstances that I'm, I'm sure you're going to talk about, uh, stopped being used, it came out of fashion essentially, and it's had really bad consequences for women. And so I said that to Lydia, and I was like, we should keep an eye on this. And then like, lo and behold, later on, you're like, I think this is the exact thing, or at least related, that Nicola is going to talk about. So I can't wait to go to this talk. So this sounds like something that there's growing awareness about. And it's awesome that you're a part of that.

0:08:51 Nicola: Well, you know, from a UK perspective, definitely menopause and you, the sort of cultural zeitgeist, I suppose, it's become a thing that's being talked about more and more at the moment in the last, in few years, mainly because there's a TV presenter in the UK called Davina McCall, and she's a bit of a national treasure, really, and she is in her early 50s, and she made a documentary about menopause, and various other sort of older women, um, well-known women, sort of started speaking up about it.

So it's definitely become a thing in the UK, uh, and more in a, the sort of public consciousness, but that doesn't mean to say, by any means, that women know enough about it, or by that, you know, treatment is universal and everybody's getting the access to the treatment that they need or anything. Obviously, it's just that it's become a little bit less taboo from, it was, although I'd say there's still a huge amount of barriers facing lots of different groups.

But I think the study that you referenced, Thomas, is really interesting, and we talked about it in our panel, is that, I, it was going back to the early 90s, there was this study done about the links between HRT and breast cancer, and they found in this study, and it was only preliminary results, I think, that came out, it don't think the study to its full duration, in fact, but there was these increased risks that were apparently found compound between HRT and cancer.

But I think, you know, the study was quite flawed in a lot of ways, maybe flawed is the wrong word, but you know, there was lots of things about the study that just meant that the wrong kind of conclusions were drawn. So, for example, a lot of the women in the study were a lot older and maybe actually post-menopausal.

So there were women in their 60s and 70s, and, um, know, it was about sort of, you, older style HRT, um, was given at the time, so I think there, inconclusive around the results that were drawn, and fundamentally there were the impact and the results of that, those study was that, you know, was the headlines, well, HRT increases the risk of breast cancer.

And so, so actually, a generation of women really have suffered because of that, because, when I was talking to about it, my husband, you know, talked about it in the panel, I, we kind of likened it to the, that scandal, the MMR had, that, false link that MMR vaccines caused autism in children. And obviously, that was a debunked study that was genuinely flawed.

But just in terms of material impact, that's what I was getting at, in terms of, you know, something that had been a headline and grabbed the headlines, but actually, there was, you know, a lot more substance behind it. Put, and it off a generation of women from getting treatment and understanding what HRT is. And now it, it feels like there is the start of a lot more awareness around what it is. And, you, fundamentally, HRT medication has improved a lot and changed a lot. And, you know, it is different to what it was 30 years ago.

0:11:44 Lydia: Right.

0:11:44 Nicola: So, you helping women understand that really as well.

0:11:48 Thomas: And my summary of the article, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like it was also, so about maybe a philosophical view of trade-offs, that it feels like was almost like these decisions were almost made on behalf of all women, because it looked at as this scary consequence, it was the breast cancer link, right? And it was some sort of link. And I don't even know what the numbers is. And in fact, that's one of the things I try to do on my show just in general is when you see studies or anything that's like, oh, this is linked to this. It's like okay, okay, but how much, what does that mean? You know, like, is it 1 %? Is it 0 .5? Is it 50%, you know?

And I think a lot of science reporting, it's kind of why I'm glad we're involved in the skeptical movement and in in science communication in general, it is like, we need to be more clear as to what these things actually mean.

And my, impression I was left with the article, which seemed really kind of tragic was, yeah, this, there is this possible scary link, and even if you, you know, you grant that, and you, even if you say, which I don't know, I'm not a scientist, I don't know, but if you say okay, that might be true, the percentage problem of that, when you evaluated that, compared to the, the outlook without this treatment that is really, really helpful was my impression, it like, well, many women might want to make that trade -off, you know,

0:12:05 Nicola: Yeah.

0:13:00 Lydia: Yeah.

0:13:00 Thomas: They might want to say, oh, okay, well, I have a slightly increased risk of this, but like, also my life is way better right now because of this treatment. And it, uh, seemed like that decision was sort of weirdly made by, I don't know, everybody for women, or something. So, do I have that right? Is there any more you could talk about with that? Yeah.

0:13:16 Nicola: Well, I think certainly breast cancer risk was been the main concern. And I think, think you, so many things, really, Thomas, to unpack, because, know, I don't know enough about it myself to say, well, you know, it's sort of, you know, men in a room making a decision against women. I think it's like anything, when there's headlines and scary headlines about an impact of a certain medication that will just inevitably mean it turns people off from accessing or seeking out that treatment.

But I think, you you know, there's lots of issues around women getting medical treatment in and of itself anyway, you know, the barriers that women face in being taken seriously when they go to a doctor, maybe the lack of research and understanding around menopause in and of itself, so that when women go to a GP and say, talk about a list of symptoms that they might be suffering from, the knowledge and the expertise for the GPs to say, actually, that might be menopaus or you perimenopause symptoms that you're experiencing.

You know, the very common symptoms for perimenospores is that women experience really low mood, anxiety, depression, they feel like, you know, a bit of a loss of joy, is, is the ways in, I've certainly experienced that myself, really kind of low feelings and not really being to put, put your finger on why you're feeling this way.

And so women are often prescribed antidepressants, but you know, that might be part of a treatment, but it, it's might not be what's at the root cause of why women are feeling that way. So I think that, you professionals for GPs to actually understand and have the awareness to to talk to women, understand the symptoms in a whole, and not just pick up and say, well, you've got low mood, maybe we should try you on an antidepressant and go away, sort of thing.

You know, I know from speaking with colleagues and being part of other networks and hearing people speak about it, you know, one of the big issues is women have to go back to the GP GP many, many times over before they're given the right treatment or they're maybe taken seriously. And I think, I don't know what this is like in the US, but certainly in the UK, you know, referred to as a bit of a postcode lottery, you knows, like where you go to the GP. Some of our GPs have dedicated menopause nurses in the GP surgeries. So that's amazing because there's

0:13:34 Thomas: Right.

0:15:29 Lydia: Wow.

0:15:29 Nicola: Already people geared up to have, all you, of the latest information and have that support network, but lots of GP surgeries don't have that resource, so women might feel that they have to go back multiple times before they're taken seriously, or the idea that if you, you're on the younger end of the scale of experiencing symptoms, which I certainly would be myself, you are you going to be taken seriously and then just said, well, you know, come back when you're 45, sort of thing. I mean, that didn't happen to me luckily in the end, but I can certainly see how that would be part of an issue, um, women. So I think there's, you know, a lot of sort of structural barriers that women face that might put them off from seeking treatment.

And then they hear a headline around breast cancer risk and, you know, it just puts people off, and there's a, there's a long way back, act to try and rectify, rectify gap, um, help people understand what HRT is, what it isn't, and actually, you can start taking it when it might be helpful.

And you know, for women, it's not going to be helpful for all women, and if women have had cancer already, it might not be appropriate for women to take HRT after surgery, or HRT things is not a panacea by all means, but I think

0:15:51 Lydia: Sure.

0:16:39 Nicola: In a lot of cases it will help women and it certainly should be something that should be considered

0:16:39 Lydia: I Was seeing recently, there was some evidence showing that taking HRT during perimenopause actually could help with reduced risk for dementia and cognitive decline, because you're not having those huge hormonal swings, right, in the body's reaction to that. You're kind of, for lack of a better word, you know, you're sort of like tapering what your body's experiencing. I thought that was really interesting, too, just from like an informed consent sort of approach, right? That, yes, there might be an increased risk here, but there also might be benefits here and relief in the present. And, you know, letting make those decisions for themselves, of course, with the guidance of their and practitioners. Mentioned that didn't really have a lot of pushback from your doctor when you sought treatment. Is that accurate?

0:17:32 Nicola: I had, I had one unpleasant GP visit, and that was with, um, female GP actually, but the second time I went back, was sort of a bit more prepared for the conversation, and I I asked to speak to a different GP, and when I went, symptoms, and the GP said, yeah, that pretty much sounds like perimenopause to me. And I suppose, I don't know, we've kind of already well into the conversation, but if it's worth clarifying for listeners what it is that we mean here, because I think, you word menopause, or, you knows, the menopaus is used to, quite a long period of time, you in know, what we're talking about, but actually sort of medically the menopause is actually only one day, and that is the one year anniversary of a woman's last period. So if you've gone 12 months without a period, you are said to have experienced the menopause, and

0:17:43 Lydia: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

0:18:24 Thomas: It's like a holiday. No, I'm just kidding, for sure.

0:18:26 Nicola: So And so actually, the period, the, you know, the time leading up to this anniversary is when women are generally experiencing, starting to experience all these symptoms, so they are perimenopausal. And then you have the menopausis, this one day, and then actually your postmenopausel.

And so, you know, symptoms can continue, even, even if you've stopped having monthly bleeds, you, you can still continue having lots of the symptoms that are associated with with menopause, because really, you know, it's, it's a long-term hormone deficiency that, it that is what the body is transitioning through, that iswhat the body is going through.

And so you say menopaus as sort of a catch -all term, but really what we're talking about is perimenopause or post -menopause really, and, know, not to forget, um, folk as well, you know or non-binary folk also in this conversation that, you men might still experience menopause or menopausal symptoms and things like that. So, you lot, there's lots of other conversations that need to be have to try and, you know, be inclusive about people when we're going through all of these symptoms and this transition, because you know, it's, it's not just about, you it is a issue, a female health issue, but obviously there's other communities and other groups of people that we need to consider as well when we talk about this, yeah.

0:19:15 Lydia: Of course.

0:19:27 Lydia: Yeah.

0:19:42 Thomas: Just to to clarify more of the basics for those like me who maybe don't know all this stuff. Are the symptoms, you know, the hot flashes, the, that stuff that we typically associate with, like, oh, that's menopause. So are you saying that's during perimenopause or during post -menopause?

0:19:56 Nicola: So Peri, so, well, both, so we're talking really about perimenopause, so myself currently experiencing perimenopause, where I have this collection of symptoms. And as you said, Thomas, you know, most people will know that women experience hot flushes as part of the menopause transition, so perimenepause, postmenopause. But I think hot flushes are often the butt of jokes for people as well, but there are over 30 symptoms, symptoms of perimenopause, menopause, postmenopause, when you recall, if we just call it menopausal for ease of conversation, but there are over 30 symptoms. And you know, often these are happening simultaneously, and so it's not just about hot flushes.

So if women start thinking that, well, I can't be perimenopausal, I can't me menopausal, because, you know, I still have a period, or I'm, I'm not getting hot flushes, don't feel quite myself like I used to, but it can't be that because I'm not experiencing one, two symptoms that have cut through the sort of thing, we're actually doing people a real disservice here, because we're not talking about it and giving the information to recognize they might be starting this transition, so that they can kind of look at the symptoms in a whole, you know, it's not just, well, my periods have stopped or my periods have changed or I don't know, I'm pretty hot these days, you know.

It's a lot of things, and back to the question you asked me, Lydia, you, I went to the doctor, I thought might be experiencing perimenopausal symptoms. I spoke to a GP, she pretty dismissive, and said, you, you sound quite stressed, um, really asking me, well, any underlying causes of what might, that, where that stress might be coming from

0:19:58 Thomas: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:20:18 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

0:21:37 Nicola: But what She did do was sort of send me off for some, some more blood tests. And when I went back to the GP, I asked to speak to somebody else and went through the the conversation again. And this time the GP was much more receptive to what, what I was saying and said, well, you know, let's step, start you on HRT if, you, if you would like to explore that. You know, there was no, well, you've got to wait or, um, like, that, that's absolutely an option on the table. Let's talk about it. So I was very grateful for that, um, but I know that is not all women's experience when they go to the GP.

0:21:37 Lydia: Right, right. Yeah

0:22:10 Nicola: Sure.

0:22:11 Thomas: Was that decision? Like what were the trade -offs, the benefits? I think there's a lot of maybe basic stuff, again, that some people might not be in.

0:22:18 Nicola: So, yeah. Yeah, so Lydia, you were saying about the risk factors around dementia and preventative measures. And I think certainly from what I understand, and again, medical you person, but from what I understand about it is that actually starting HRT before menopause can actually have some preventative effects. So things like reduced, um, potential of stroke or heart attack, um, risks are diminished by taking HRT as well as, you know, it's got qualities protective around osteoporosis, especially if you are on the younger end, as well, like myself, for, um, is something that should be considered. And I seen things about the dementia link. I don't know if there's a really enough, um

0:22:20 Thomas: I

0:23:01 Lydia: It's probably early.

0:23:01 Nicola: Research and scientific studies out there on that to be conclusive. But it's certainly, I certainly have seen growing, um, papers that suggest that it might, might have a preventative quality to it if take HRT. I don't know if there is specific at which that is most effective. So say if you're pre-menopause and you start, you know, if you're perimenopausal and you start taking HRT for, for a period of time, how that increases or decreases your risk, I don't know. I think all of that research probably still needs to continue. But it's certainly, um, I suppose if, if that, if adds to the of taking HRT. Oh.

0:23:02 Lydia: Mm-hmm.

0:23:42 Lydia: You feel that people talking about menopause more? Do you feel like there's been a significant increase in research that's being done and kind

0:23:49 Nicola: I'm not sure about the research point of view. I think definitely people are talking about it more and, you know, I only have a UK lens on this. So, you, I see, I certainly see that it's being talked about more and that more is being done in the workplace to try and recognize the impact that it has on women, and that, you know, the amount of women that maybe leave the workplace because they, they feel that they can't cope and they're not supported. So it's definitely in the media a lot more than it was for sure, um.

0:23:51 Lydia: I hope Just thinking, you know, kind of the trajectory of my, and how, being young and getting a period for the first time. Like, anytime you had a period, it was, I always, you know, tried to hide it as much as I could, like you'd put your tampon up your sleeve. And like, as you're going to the bathroom, room, because no one can know that you're going to go put a tampon in, right. Um, then thinking about pregnancies, you know, waiting till 12 weeks to tell anyone you're pregnant and keeping that a secret. And then if you miscarry, keeping that a secret because, you know, no one knew you were pregnant.

It's just kind of this experience of women, to any, like, woman issue, we just kind, kind of have to experience alone. And it seemed like menopause was certainly that way for a while. But it, but it sounds like, and I think this is in the U.S. too, that, um, just kind of being a little more, more open to it. And we're moving towards this position where, like, now if my period comes, I'm not hiding that I'm taking a tampon to the bathroom. Like, people can know that I have a piece of cotton in my hand. It's not a big deal.

0:24:56 Nicola: Yep. Yeah.

0:25:19 Lydia: Um. And so I'm hoping that we're, that, like, seeing that here, too, is that, you of breaking down this societal expectation that we are just supposed to experience these major, major transitions in our lives by ourselves.

0:25:19 Nicola: Sure.

0:25:32 Nicola: I mean, that's, that's why felt like I wanted to talk about it and why I undertook the menopause champion training at work when it, when, when it was first offered. And so to do with women's bodies is pretty much still considered taboo, right? You know, if, like you say, periods are still taboo, being able to talk about blood, you know, that is very much a taboo subject and we don't want to know about that. It's, you know, and it's, it's that subconscious underlying assumption that somehow it's dirty. I think that fact that women bleed, it's menopause lens that, well, basically, you know, it's a natural thing that happens to women, therefore we should just sort of shut up and deal with it. And the act that, that, you so much of society is geared towards women a childbearing age, you is shaped around women and having children. And once you're on the way out of having that, or once you are no longer able to have children, that almost become forgotten and, you, I think it's a really, really insidious gendered stereotype, isn't it, that affects so much about the way you structured, really, you

0:26:35 Lydia: Yeah.

0:26:35 Nicola: Know, and and how women access health care and you you know, all sorts of things. So I made me really angry. You know, like I said at the start, getting to this point in my life and knowing, you know, somewhere in the back of my brain that at some point my periods will stop and that I'll, you a have that, that would be a thing that would happen to me. But I think until I started to really engage with it, I felt, realized how disconnected I was from that, from all of it, really. And that made me really mad because how is it that, you know, you're taught about having a period and you're taught about, I suppose, I mean, I think I, you don't know, I'm 42, so, good, I don't know what, like, ed is like in

0:26:37 Lydia: Women's role, you now. Yeah. Mm -hmm.

0:27:13 Lydia: Kids

0:27:13 Nicola: Schools now, but

0:27:13 Thomas: Don't with the kids these days. Yeah.

0:27:13 Lydia: These days are.

0:27:14 Nicola: Yeah. Kids these days, so I don't, hopefully it's much better than it was when you know, 30 years ago when I was receiving sex ed, but you very much focused on that perfunctory kind of a, you, baby is made and how not to get pregnant and so that's it, all you're taught in school, really, or it was, when I, when I was at school was about that element of it, not about how periods are hell and how they can be really awful and really debilitating and how to maybe help cope with those, or what if you're, what, experiencing something, how do you know you're experiencing outside of the norm, as well, to be able to then go and get help.

And then not even, and preparing women for when this happens, because, you know, it's a physical change, but actually real, emotional change as well, not, not least because of the emotional symptoms, but that sense of, that's an end of your life that's a part of your, that is changing, coming to an end. I don't have children, I haven't wanted to have children, but even then there is still that thing in the back of your mind that says this is going, going to be a thing that my body can't do anymore and

0:27:19 Lydia: Mm -mm. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:14 Nicola: I sort of emotionally prepared to engage with that, that change. And I'm still struggling with that, I think, to some extent and We're not given the tools to talk about it because it's still seen as a taboo because you women, once they've gone through the menopause, become invisible in a lot of ways, you know, really ill -equipped to to help people with this phase of their life and to help partners and friends and family and work colleagues to help people with this phase of their life.

I just think everything just needs to um, a lot better, and that's why I'm happy to you out there and talk about it, because I think it's only through hearing other the people talk about it, like so many other things, that things will slowly change and people will won't feel like they've got to experience this in isolation. You don't have to put the tampon up your sleeve to hide your period.

You, I go into the office quite a lot and and I work predominantly with my male colleagues, they're the colleagues that come into the the most often, and I honestly, they they know more about my periods and menopause than I think some of my friends do, because I just got to the point where I thought I need to talk about this and I don't want to feel embarrassed if I feel sick one day or I don't feel well, I don't want to have to pretend it's something else, I want to be able to say you know what, I have my period and I feel really sick and I wantto just be ableto say that and own it and it not be something that makes me feel embarrassed or ashamed, because it's perfectly normal, your

0:28:21 Lydia: Yeah.

0:29:39 Thomas: I don't know about you folks over there, but we have commercials 24-7 about my boner not working. Man's boner's not working! Do you know there's help? There's help!

0:29:46 Nicola: Your personal one Thomas, I

0:29:48 Thomas: Oh yeah, it's personalized. They're like, just the minute you think your boner is not working, there's a team of doctors there to help you. Whatever you need. Much different, I feel like. There's plenty awareness around that.

0:29:48 Nicola: Mean, adverts are a bit different in the UK and well,

0:30:02 Thomas: Oh, okay, so that didn't register for you? Yeah, those are all 24 7 for us, that's

0:30:04 Nicola: No, I mean, there are there, there are definitely adverts for, um, or you brand. Um, I, adverts in general in the UK are a lot less, um, in your face, no pun intended.

0:30:15 Thomas: Great.

0:30:15 Nicola: Um, Yeah.

0:30:16 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:35 Lydia: I saw there are like wellness retreats for menopause, women going through perimenopausal symptoms to go to a retreat and, you know, get to eat all the, in quotes, organic food that their hearts desire. And they're, you Know, doing yoga, which is great. And it's usually in a beautiful place. You know if there's like wellness products and like different beauty products that have really kind of tapped into a of.

0:30:57 Lydia: Yeah, Yeah, it's a segment of the population, too, that that does engage a lot in consumerism, generally speaking. So I don't know, Nicola, if you've picked up on any of that.

0:30:57 Thomas: What's Gwyneth Paltrow selling uh,

0:31:08 Nicola: I definitely noticed that. I think because suddenly menopause is a thing that's being spoken about more, you, the sad inevitability is that there are plenty of products suddenly that are deciding to market themselves, you, menopaus, and I think, you know, generally speaking, this isn't a universal statement, of course, but generally speaking, if, if you're getting to my age or a bit older, perhaps you are more established in your career, maybe you have a little bit more disposable income.

So, you know, I think there probably are companies that are trying to take advantage of that and definitely market, you know, fundamentally, you're preying on women's really vulnerable state of mind, right? You know, like one of the symptoms of menopause, perimenopause is hair loss. Well, you, that is devastating to suddenly have very visible change on person.

A lot of the symptoms obviously are internal, or how you're feeling, but to have a very physical change and be experiencing that, so much of a woman's kind of sense of herself might be wrapped up in her hair and how she presents herself. So I've noticed a lot of these ads for caffeine shampoos, which really, I think traditionally have been more marketed towards men. There's one on the UK telly I've seen recently, it's like, and it's literally all about the menopause, so they've totally pivoted away from this being a man's product. It's, this can help you with the menopaus, and they've got women on, on camera, saying, oh, you know, how this helped their hair feel.

0:32:08 Lydia: Yeah,

0:32:36 Thomas: Did you say caffeine shampoos? Is that what I heard? No,

0:32:38 Nicola: I Did Yeah, caffeine shampoo, is that not a thing in the states?

0:32:40 Thomas: We don't have that I've never heard of that? Wow.

0:32:41 Nicola: Okay. Oh, Oh, Okay, well, you're welcome.

0:32:41 Lydia: Not yeah, not that I'm aware of.

0:32:45 Thomas: Is it for your morning, your cup of shampoo, poo that you, yeah.

0:32:45 Nicola: Um, but yeah, maybe Exactly. Yeah, I mean, I, I personally just massage, um, grinds straight in, you know, I don't worry about the shampoo, but, um, that is not a health tip, advice, nice. Um, yeah, so caffeine shampoo is a thing in the UK, in Europe I think, and yes, but, you know, that's been a thing that I've seen specifically marketed now with a menopause tag on it, that this can help with, relieve menopaus, a symptom of menopauze, yeah,

0:32:50 Thomas: Okay. Yeah. Mostly

0:32:55 Lydia: Right, right.

0:33:14 Lydia: And they've probably increased the price by like 40 percent or whatever, like they always do for any products marketed to women.

0:33:21 Nicola: And, and so I definitely think there's lots of brands now that are jumping on that bandwagon of, well, been talked, talked about more so we can, this vague claim that this might help with your perimenopause, menopausal symptoms, and you, anything really, you know, see I, it, with products that are marketed for women and who are trying to get pregnant, for example, you know, it's kind of giving false hope, and you, it's just asking you to spend you, load of, of money on something that might or may not help a bit, you know, and of the reason why I think they probably get away with it is because going back to the, what we were talking about before, about HRT, and the fact that there's still a lot of probably misconceptions around HRT, there's a lot reluctance around women to take it, and what is more natural, what, what, what is a more natural remedy that could be taken, and something like a caffeine shampoo, I think probably fits quite neatly into that, you know, well, it, it, well, can't do me any harm, can it, because, um, know, and

0:34:16 Thomas: Because it's not real, that's the thing you've made up to, to prank us, gonna send a badly photoshopped link of

0:34:19 Nicola: Honestly. I'm gonna send you a link. That I can think of two brands that sell caffeine Shampoo.

0:34:30 Lydia: Saw this really sad statistic, um, 43% of menopausal women believe they've become less attractive, and 28% of them no longer like looking in the mirror, and just like made me really, really sad reading that. Um, hard to not be like, I guess, like, okay, I'm gonna end up in that group, you know what I mean, like, when I hit that part, um, HRT, have you utilized like any other resources to kind of help you? As you mentioned, this is a huge transition, you're moving from a completely different phase of, of, um, this has, has anything been helpful for you?

0:34:37 Nicola: Yeah, Well, I'm still, still that out to some extent, I think talking about it is helping me, it might not be helping anyone else, helping any of my colleagues going, Nicola's banging on about it again, shut up. Um, no, but I definitely think talking, talking about it is helpful. Really lucky in where I work, in that, you work for the civil service. So there are lots of networks and support through work that perhaps is not common in other areas of work. So I think that, just being able to be part of groups and hearing other women's experiences and talking about and knowing that you're not going through it yourself, you're not, you're literally not going mad, I mean, one of the symptoms of perimenopause is brain fog where you literally forget what you're saying halfway through a sentence, that may or may not happen to me during this recording, um,

0:35:11 Thomas: Are

0:35:50 Lydia: Yeah.

0:35:50 Thomas: There

0:35:51 Nicola: And you know that's terribly embarrassing when you're, when a podcast, or you know, you're in the middle of work and you are giving a presentation and you literally can't remember the name of the thing that you wanted to say or the name of the persons that opposite you, like, how do you explain that, and so women genuinely think, think they're having early onset dementia symptoms, you know, like, it is incredibly scary, and so I definitely, talking about it and knowing that you aren't going mad, that this is, it isn't, it's an awful symptom, but it's, it's something that is go away, um, you know, lots and lots of women experience this, is useful for sure. I also think that, um, the things that I've read, you know, diet and exercise probably come into play a lot as well, I mean, I have shunned exercise my entire adult life, so trying to get into a space where I will embrace exercise, quite difficult, but recognizing that that is probably something that I want to try and do more of.

0:36:42 Lydia: Yeah.

0:36:43 Nicola: Um, just to stay, stay fit, and I, some talking therapy as well, you know, that is a, is more structured way other than just networks as well, I think, is, is useful. Um, it's difficult, right, because it's, for lots of different women, not everybody experiences the most severest of symptoms, I suppose, so it's going to be different for every person, um, going through transition, this, not everyone's going to really, really, really bad, um, it is one of those things where you have to try and figure out what's going to work for you. Um, as long as you've got the support, and you know we can go to for that support, I know that's a good starting point. Let

0:37:08 Lydia: Mm -hmm. So, Nicola, there's a special thing that we're kicking off with you. You're our guinea pig in all of this. But patrons know, and we've put out the information on patreon.com/seriouspod. If you're a patron, you get to ask questions of our experts or related to topics that we might be covering on the show in the coming weeks. And we put up a post on patreon.com/seriouspod and got a lot of great feedback.

0:37:41 Thomas: A lot of questions, yeah, a lot of interest in this

0:37:42 Lydia: Yeah. A lot of people who really wanted to pick your brain, Nicola. I, I guess kind of attest to the fact that a lot people don't know a lot about menopause. No one ever talks about this. We wanted to ask you a couple questions from that, and, uh, and see what your thoughts are, um, from patron congress, the opposite of progress.

0:38:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:38:03 Lydia: Con, and pro. Um, question for Nicola. I'm a trade union rep in an industry that is something like 90% middle-aged working class white cis men. Try as we might, there's still an attitude that making accommodations for so-called women's issues, like child care, periods, and menopause, are proof that women can't do our job without special treatment, and that the men have to pick up the slack, flack. A result, it can be challenging to convince the men that these issues should be a priority for us. Do you have any advice or strategies to get these grumpy old men to care?

0:38:03 Nicola: Well, First of all, I'd like to say solidarity with your listener there because that sounds like a really situation stressful work situation. I am also a trade union rep in my workplace, so, but I think that, as I said before, I'm lucky in that I'm in an organization that already has probably made some strides here, so I wasn't sort of having to, I already pushing at a an door, shall we say, um, a really tricky one if you've got real kind of stale attitudes in your organization.

And I'd be interested to know, I suppose, what type of industry this person works in as well, because I guess that makes it, know, um, harder to maybe make some changes depending what the industry is and what the type of work is.

But I think, you, if they're already a trade union rep, first and foremost, does the trade union actually have any resources that they could help, um, work or help to open that conversation with, um, the employer, because I hope that, as a trade unit rep, they're, that having regular meetings with, that their employer to talk about, um, and safety issues or things like that.

And and would try and maybe frame it as a health a and and safety issue, because, you, this is fundamentally about women's safety and health in the workplace. And if, some, what I would consider to probably be quite marginal or very small adjustments that could be made, um, in the grand scheme of things, you know, actually, that's going to mean that women aren't going to be taking days off sick, they aren't going to me leaving work or from work, you know, they're going to have a healthier workforce if they maybe are able to make some, some adjustments.

So I would maybe think about trying to frame it as a health and safety issue rather than it being, you know, a woman's issue. It's a health and safety issue.

And maybe that might help change or start to change some attitudes, because, you, if you're operating machinery, you would wear goggles, wouldn't you, or you'd wear safety gloves, you would have some risk assessments in place to make sure that the people stay safe, they can carry on working, fundamentally, they're not going to chop a finger off and have to go off sick, you

0:40:30 Nicola: Know, you would, you would make sure that that person is still fit and able to come to work. So I think maybe framing it in that way, so that it's, it's about people staying in work, um, with some adjustments, might, might be a good first step to take. I think also, if you know, as a trade union, maybe, is it possible to set up some sort of support network in work as well, just for, just the women to to to join, maybe invite your male colleagues to join. We feel comfortable that, because, like we've spoken about, about so much on this interview, you know, just talking about it more in an informal way actually can help break down some of those barriers. So maybe it doesn't have to be a formal, a formal thing, maybe just listening to other women talk about what it's like, slowly and gradually, might help change and shift some attitudes. But I would definitely, you, about how you can reframe the conversation in in that way, um, hopefully that might help, um, Little bit.

0:40:30 Lydia: Yeah, that's a great idea. Yeah. You follow up with just a little bit about menopause champion at work? What all that entailed and what you did to...

0:41:21 Nicola: Yes.

0:41:28 Thomas: Who'd you have to beat, like, how many, like, how many phases of menopause battle were there for you to be the champ? Also, by the way, I'm honored that you came on, we got the champion.

0:41:35 Nicola: Well, Well, Thank you very much, um, yes, I am, I was the menopause champion, I trampled, uh, trampled over my fellow, uh, and colleagues, um, grab that trophy, I'm not ashamed, Thomas. No, It was, um, part of my workplace, we already have, like, a gender equality network, work, as other dive inclusion diversity networks, and we have a menopause support group, and we've also, you, been able to successfully put free period products in all of our bathrooms across all of our estates as well.

So, as part of kind of this ongoing work about talking about it, there was an external provider that was brought in to sort of give us training about what the menopaus actually is, you, the, some, know, of the things we've touched on, you know, what, what some of the symptoms are, how it affects women in the workplace, um, you know, trans, non -binary colleagues, of course, as well, and to give us that general awareness.

And then, as the idea being, that there is a sort of a trained up network of people in the organization that have a greater understanding, have a greatest awareness of what this is. And so, if anyone is experiencing, um, in the marketplace, or maybe, you know, know, a, or a brother or a line manager might say, do you know what, there's someone in my team that I, that, you know, that's having a tough time, how might I help support them?

And, and to be able to reach out to us as a sort of a source of resource really within the organization. So that's kind of, you, we're all about, really, so, know, that's very lucky that you, we're given the opportunity to sort of have that additional professional training. But it was, like I say, it was only through that that I, I at the list of symptoms and went, hmm, I think this is me on this list, and

0:41:40 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:41:51 Lydia: Man.

0:41:51 Thomas: That's

0:43:16 Lydia: That's crazy, yeah.

0:43:17 Thomas: Cool.

0:43:18 Nicola: Did get a certificate, I didn't get a trophy, unfortunately, but I did got a certificate at the end, yeah.

0:43:21 Thomas: Oh, let's make you one. Let's make you one, okay?

0:43:23 Lydia: There we go.

0:43:24 Nicola: I would like that, thank you, oh,

0:43:25 Thomas: We'll send that out.

0:43:26 Lydia: We another question from patron Katie Herman. Can anything be taken away from how others in your family experienced menopause? My mother experienced serious issues that lasted most of a decade. It affected everything, mood, behavior, sleep, physical health, relationships, etc. Should I I braced myself for menopause to be a similarly major, long-term issue for me as well?

0:43:49 Nicola: Gosh, well, I think, you know, thinking about my own mum's experience, and I think looking, looking back now as an adult, when I was sort of a teen, I think I recognised maybe when my mum was going through it, but it was never spoken about, never talked to me about it. It was never something that was part of the conversation at all. And I think that's, that's that happens so much, right? You know, even within families, women don't talk openly about it with their children necessarily. It's only when you're going through as an, as an adult yourself, and you maybe perhaps talk to to your parent then, but you think that's part of the whole culture and taboo that we're talking about, is that it's not even, you know, I didn't even get that information from my own mum to sort of prepare me for what was, um, come as an an as adult, um, such as that attitude, I think, but we just kind of get on with it. Certainly in the UK, sort of, you, working class mum, you know, we definitely just get on on with it, you Know, um,

0:44:43 Thomas: Keep calm and parry on. I don't know, I'm trying to come up with something. Working on it. We'll fix it in post. Don't worry, it'll be really fun. Oh, there, good. Get a big laugh, and we'll fix the joke. We'll use CGI. Wow, what a great joke, Thomas. Okay, carry on, Nicola.

0:44:48 Nicola: Literally

0:44:51 Lydia: And

0:44:59 Nicola: Um, but I think, so for listener Casey, so I think, you know, I don't necessarily, I mean, again, not a medical expert, so I've no idea if, um, own mum's experience means she will also experience experience symptoms in the same way, but what I would say is being able to recognize that's what her mum went through, and having that knowledge of what the symptoms might be to sort of look out for them, and not wait until you're kind of in the throes of all of These things, if they are that severe, And Then thinking, you know, looking around, thinking, you know, why, why am I, you, not myself, why am I experiencing these things, if you know that some of the subtle changes might be to look out for, you know, I think you, you can, can take steps to help manage those symptoms better, I would say, and I hope very much that Casey's able to do that, and so that, you know, she's not, um, having such a bad time when, um, starts experiencing these symptoms. I think, you know, it's that saying, isn't it, is it, for forewarned is forearmed, is foreworned, or is it the other way around, I'm

0:45:27 Lydia: Suffering. Yeah. I

0:45:59 Thomas: Probably

0:45:59 Nicola: Not Quite Sure, Forearmed.

0:46:00 Thomas: The other way around,

0:46:00 Lydia: Don't know because I don't t know idioms or turns of phrases.

0:46:00 Thomas: Yeah. She doesn't know American idioms, let alone British ones, yeah?

0:46:06 Lydia: Yeah.

0:46:07 Nicola: Just forewarmed, maybe it's that way around. Forearm, just forewarmed.

0:46:08 Thomas: I would think it would be forewarned is forearmed, I would thing. But that's just a guess.

0:46:10 Nicola: Well, whatever it is, it's bad, I think, um, so I think the you, that's whole part of isn't knowing what to look out for makes a huge difference because, because then you're not thinking you're going crazy and actually you can go maybe start some treatments earlier, or maybe you can make some changes earlier that are going to help you manage those symptoms better if they are that significant.

0:46:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:46:36 Lydia: Stormy Decisus asks, one of our great questioners, Stormy Decisus: "If someone has their ovaries removed while of reproductive age and doesn't take hormone replacement therapy, will they go through menopause early?" Great.

0:46:47 Nicola: Well, not sure I definitely know the answer to that question, but what I think might be useful to talk about a bit is having, so I think, you know, that would be where there's different kinds of hysterectomy, so that might be where someone's womb removed, but it could also be that the ovaries, one or more of the ovary is, is also removed. So if, if is taken away, either for whatever reason, then I think a person would experience immediate menospausal symptoms.

So suppose that would be discussed at the time that surgery was taking place as to whether HRT was appropriate to be taken after, after the surgery. But I think if only, um, womb was removed, but a person had one or more of their ovaries still intact, then you, that know, doesn't necessarily mean immediate menopause.

I know if that means a person is more likely to experience an early menopaus, I genuinely don't note that question, but I think that certainly it's a given, you know, those, there's two different scenarios there. So again, I think that, um, someone had, um, womb removed but still had ovaries and then were starting to experience perimenopausal symptoms, I think you being able to talk about HRT as a potential is definitely a good idea, let

0:48:00 Lydia: I have one last question, but just I want to say again, watched you, the panel at QED and you chaired it, Nicola, and you are amazing. Way that you led the conversation, so great. The discussion was so good. And I just wanted to say thank you so much for the way that the discussion was great. Um, the way that you managed the questions from the audience was amazing. Um, I don't know, I just like felt really energized after watching you on the panel. You, and heard me go on about you at QED in person anyway, but I want the listeners to all hear it. And so I guess my last question is, how do I also become a badass like you? Because you're great. And I'm like, in you, my little meek corner here. I'm just, I don't know, I'm floored by you as a person. And I want to I want want to know more

0:48:42 Nicola: Lydia, that is very lovely. I am very humbled and embarrassed by such lovely comments, but thank you so much, um, nice to get good feedback. Um, I don't, don't know how to answer your question other than, um, I think, like, particular topic in general, you, issues in general, I think, uh, me quite mad, you know, and the perspective that I don't want to turn off men in the conversation.

I want to, to include men, you know, I want to include everybody in the conversation because generally speaking, you benefits, I think you, like, question that, about you know, the workplace, everybody benefits if some of the people are helped with the thing that they need help with, you, um improved by that, that situation, and it's not about, well, well, this is just a women's issue, therefore we have to listen, or we can turn off, or you, I think that that's just, it's really important to me.

And I see it around the time. And now I'm kind of on the menopause train, you know, I see things that happen to me, I think they're menopausal, seeing everywhere that I go. And I just think that, you know, like anything, isn't it? You, fine line because you don't want to have to feel like I've got to talk about my own personal lived experience about X to get other people to listen. Other people should recognize that it's an issue and want to support or do something about it.

But at the same time, where people are able to, being able to speak up about a thing, you know, whatever it is, does actually help because, because you're, you're reaching out to that person that you don't know and saying, this is happening to me as well. And that's a really powerful thing, I think. And that is kind of where I feel about it.

So I think being able to talk about this issue in particular, because I am a bit younger as well, I think, you know, you know, when you read sort of the literature about menopause in particular, it is like, well, you know, the average age for women is like 51 when their periods stop, and you know, if you're 45, um, going through these symptoms, but actually now I'm younger than that.

And you know, and and I think that I wasn't prepared, I wasn't mentally prepared for that, and so that made me mad. And I think anger fuels quite a lot of things, but hopefully I'm channeling it in

0:49:41 Lydia: Great

0:50:50 Nicola: The right way, not in a crazy unhinged way, but channeling it in, in the right way, to help try and kind of, just in, in my own little corner of the world that I have control over, you, try and do some good by talking about it, I think.

0:50:53 Lydia: Yeah

0:51:01 Thomas: All right, well, thank you so much for coming on. There anything you want to point people to? Normally, this is the part of the show where I ask if people have a, you know, a social media account to plug or anything like that. Is there anything at all, any organizations involved in any of this, anything that you'd like to point people to?

0:51:16 Nicola: I don't have anything to plug personally. When I was coming on, I did think, I'll have a little look for some maybe useful resources for people. So I think in the UK, there's the British Menopause Society that has quite a lot of resources on it. There's also Menopause Support, and there's a Menopaus Charity. Lady who I had on my panel at QED, Anita Powell, she's got her own podcast called Black Menopause and Beyond, and she was really great as well.

And then, from from the US side of things, I think there was kind of looking, there's an American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, I don't know if that's a well -known organization in the States, but certainly have a patient section where they, they've got a lot of sort of FAQ, you, and PDFs about menopause, but also about other menstrual disorders as well.

So, you know, it's not just, um, menopause, and I think that's actually really interesting as well, as if people need to try and understand their own sort of menstrual cycle and menstrual journey, that that might help, um, a useful sort of starting point of resources, so I would, I, those, a little shout out.

0:52:15 Thomas: Right, Nicola. Also, everyone should come to the next QED. It's the best. We'll be there.

0:52:18 Nicola: Thomas, I'm still resting from kiwi day.

0:52:22 Thomas: Yeah, I know. Hey, maybe it's 10 years from now. I don't know. I have no idea. We'll see. But hopefully not. All right. Nicola Thropp, thank you so much for coming on.

0:52:31 Nicola: You so much for having me.