WTW18: #renameStennisCenter

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:41 Thomas: And welcome to Where There's Woke. This is episode 18. I'm Thomas. That's Lydia. How you doing?

0:00:48 Lydia: Hi, I'm good.

0:00:49 Thomas: Oh boy. Oh boy, I It's too much. I, I, it's too MUCH! Always too much! This was completely unexpected. Didn't, nah, weren't planning.

0:00:58 Lydia: It's always that way.

0:00:59 Thomas: Yeah. Weren't planning, then, then we're like, oh we'll just do a quick little thing, just a little, little thing and then this is the most fascinating thing. So, folks, we teased it last time that this is going to be hashtag rename Stennis Center or Stennis anything. I guess there's also a boat that, should we, could we, could also sink it? I think we could either sink the, I'm not advocating terrorism, terrorism on the show, but yeah, yeah, it needs to be sunk, or you could rename it, those are the options. Uh, a big boat. And And then there's the Stennis Centre, which has, uh, what is that?

0:01:08 Lydia: Yeah, all the things.

0:01:25 Lydia: Won't be anybody on it. Yeah. Yeah it's It's a rocket testing facility out in Mississippi, one of NASA's major facilities.

0:01:41 Thomas: So, what started this, and I just, have I to say, folks, just please trust me. This was something where I started reading. We were just going to figure out like, what does this email mean? What does this little line, that fucking, and Kristen Erickson, space Karen, as I call her, space Karen, is just, a well, I want all her emails. Can we do a FOIA? That's like, can you just give us all her stuff? Because she's just like fascinating, she's such an asshole, I just, anything she says will lead us to something, you know what I mean, like, there'll be, she'll like, if we got Ginny Thomas's texts, there, that'll give us something.

We'll be like, "ah, okay, you're on the next war front of this," which she was. So, she said in the, in a, just a, one of the last emails, we went through This was the same one that had that "I sure hope someone is speaking truth to power," which is the best. Uh, listen to the previous episode. If you didn't hear that, mandatory, go listen, stop now, do that, and then come back. Line that we teased is the last paragraph here. "This administrator must decide he cannot have mission equity and Stennis at the same time." Then, "I sure hope someone is speaking truth to power." So that obviously, like, instantly got us, us both interested

0:02:02 Lydia: Yeah. What's she been up to? Yeah. Yeah. No, Yeah. A name we've never heard before. Yeah.

0:02:56 Thomas: And and I also, she's so fucking weird that I don't know what she means, you know, like, it, it takes a minute, because actually, like, a good interpretation, and then you realize like, oh no, she's such a shitty, that she means it the other way. Because think about that sentence. Look, spoiler, spoiler alert, which you could already figure out because of everything, Stennis is someone who sucks, and there's, yeah,

0:03:01 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:03:18 Lydia: You mean because you want to sink a ship that has his name on it? Like maybe they figured it out?

0:03:21 Thomas: Stennis is someone whose sucks and their stuff named after him. And she's saying he cannot have mission equity and Stennis at the same time. And that's, perfect that's because you and I are like, yeah. No, I agree. Look, that'd be like us saying, look, you You can't can't sit there and tell me you care about, you and inclusion. You can'T tell me YOU care about that and then have something named after Stennis at the same time. And Space Karen is like, yeah, I agree. I'm like, wait, what? You agree with that? She's like, Yeah, we got to get rid of mission equity. We got to Get rid of the good part of that and keep the Stennis part of it.

0:03:56 Lydia: I really wrestled with this the last episode, as I just thought that she was calling him a hypocrite, not necessarily saying that like was the bad thing there out saying that Bill Nelson's, you know, trying to both sides it.

0:04:10 Thomas: Know how this edit is gonna work, but Lydia and I are still arguing over Space Karen and what she means. She's a, she's a Pandora's box, I can't understand it. Because my interpretation is that she's saying, yeah, fuck mission equity, essentially. But I grant that's a little extreme, like maybe she wouldn't quite be saying like, yeah, let's get rid of mission equity, because mission equity is actually a thing, it's not, she doesn't mean that in like vague terms, like Oh, just like equity as a concept, it's a, a capitalized thing, mission equity, which is a particular, yeah.

0:04:26 Lydia: Yeah. Right. Right? It's like a like a strategic plan of sorts with how they're going to tackle DEI and NASA. Yeah, of course.

0:04:44 Thomas: And her reasoning, that this, this is neither here nor there, but I have to, now I haveto understand this person so she's saying, okay, her whole fucking thing, okay, let's go through it, like we're, we're going through the steps here of logic, obviously she wants to keep James Webb, duh, and she's staying, saying, do I grant that, like, you keep the name, that agency is exposed to other naming issues, but

0:04:58 Lydia: Okay. Yes.

0:05:10 Lydia: Remind me this is 2021 when this email? Interesting. The articles about the little bit of renaming push that Stennis got, those were in 2020 and NASA had to issue a statement back then.

0:05:13 Thomas: Oh, Did they, oh, This, that's interesting, because I came across those, but I didn't look too much into it, uh, you know, we were delegating and, uh, what I could tell though, though, correct me if I'm wrong, this has gotten almost no attention. Like, yeah, there was an article or two written to rename and one of them was the ship. And then I think there's an even smaller bit of, you made about the name of the, really?

0:05:26 Lydia: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it was covered in the New York Times, but it didn't pick up much traction. Yeah Yeah. Know, besides the himself covering it on Twitter and trying to kind of draw some attention to it. And you get those typical Twitter responses being like, why do you care? But NASA, they responded to The New York Times inquiring about the Stennis campaign to change the name from Stennis. NASA said the agency was engaged in ongoing discussions about the names of its facilities. And in quotes, NASA leadership is sensitive to the discussions of racism, discrimination and inequalities going on around the world, including conversations about renaming facilities. We are having ongoing discussions with the NASA workforce on all of these topics. NASA is dedicated to advancing diversity and we we will continues to take step to do do so." And then they did nothing.

0:05:49 Thomas: I was going to say, so wait, was there a change in the guard? Although, but even though we don't like, yeah.

0:06:37 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Was that Jim Bridenstine Trump appointee at that point in time.

0:06:45 Thomas: But like, Like, there's no way he's better than Bill Nelson on these issues, is there? It's not like, oh, the leader changed and then things got worse. It's just like they

0:06:45 Lydia: Yeah. Right. Right. I think it just got forgotten about.

0:06:56 Thomas: Think that's how this this is, again, another reason we're doing this. Ability of the entrenched power to just wait it out often because like there's so much shit wrong that, you know, you got to do podcasts about that. That, like, it's just if, you tried for a minute, hey, rename this thing, and then they're like, oh, yeah, no, we're looking into that. And then they just didn't give a shit. But here's what I can't escape with Space Karen. So why would keeping James Webb have have a negative impact on keeping Stennis? Like, if anything, it would be like, yeah. If you back down on that, then next they're going to first they came for our webs and for, and I then said nothing.

0:07:03 Lydia: Yeah. Yep.

0:07:34 Thomas: And then they came for our stannises.

0:07:35 Lydia: I Think if get rid of that, it might just kind of draw attention to what else is. You know, they're recognizing that there was problematic naming here, and it might just like renew attention on something that they dealt with the previous year from that email. And who knows if she knows anything about that. I'm drafting a FOIA right now.

0:07:54 Thomas: Must be. Oh yeah. Must be. But okay. Okay. And again, this is, this is us trying to get in the mind of something where you zoom in, and it may just be a couple of monkeys playing ping pong or something. I don't, I don't know what's in this person's brain, but is blowing my mind. This could be just like a bonus addendum or something, cause I can't. So, okay, I respect that by reclaiming the name, the agency is exposed to other naming issues. But why, why would you be exposed to other naming? So then, is she saying then you also have to reclaim Stennis, but but then you can't have Mission Equity in Stennis at the same time

0:07:58 Lydia: Yeah. Oh, gosh.

0:08:29 Lydia: Think you have to pick a side is what she's saying, because Dennis is anti -mission equity, basically.

0:08:35 Thomas: No so that's why I'm saying, she, she wants to get rid of Mission Equity, otherwise she'd be saying, hey, Stennis, that's a different story, that guy sucks, go ahead and rename that, but don't, don't rename James Webb

0:08:45 Lydia: Yeah. So I guess that's what I'm saying is that like initially when I read this, it's the benefit of the doubt, you know, that I tend to do with with everybody. And then I think the more that you and I have talked about it and that her stance with that reclaim the name, you know, just even though the the firm or whatever that they were working with was like, get rid of it, get ready, get out of it over and over. And Kristen Erickson and Oliver Wisdom was like no, you just you hold on tight to the gym web name and and it'll all go away. And so maybe that's why I'm coming around to your interpretation now.

0:09:17 Thomas: Or now here's the weird thing, now I'm coming around to your interpretation because I, I, this, I can't fucking make heads or tails of the sentence, this paragraph. It actually, maybe it does make more sense if she, she is acknowledging, like, yes, Dennis does suck, she doesn't say this, but like, let's pretend in her mind, in somehow she is acknowledging that Stennis sucks, and she's saying like, yeah, and if you, if this one, but I still don't know what the, what's the logical connection I but but

0:09:25 Lydia: Oh, God.

0:09:49 Lydia: You're going to need to address that one also. I don't know. We're going to have to resolve it another day.

0:09:55 Thomas: Need to do a FOIA request of just like, hey, just get on the phone with us while Lydia and I argue about this sentence, that's the FOIA request, some poor NASA person's like, I have no fucking idea what you're talking about

0:09:55 Lydia: Yes.

0:10:04 Lydia: Or if we just FOIA like, please send us all of Kristen's emails and they'll be like, we knew this day was coming. Here you go.

0:10:11 Thomas: I'd, Erickson, Space Karen, has sent me like a Mensa, like mind puzzle in this fucking, fucking haphazard, weird nonsense she typed in an email on June 29th, 2021, and I, I will never let this go, but I, I, I'm just gonna mute myself, I'm gonna, gonna continue, continue talking it through, yeah and you just record the episode we planned because I, I can't, I can't handle that, I don't understand this, okay, but we both looked into Stennis and we're like, what does that mean, and we come across this, and initially I was looking into this, I asked you, I was like, did you look into st tennis and I think you kind of were like, oh, yeah, a little bit, right, and

0:10:33 Lydia: I'll Continue the episode, okay yeah yeah I kind of got the basics uh

0:10:54 Thomas: I had, uh, by pure happenstance of which you research rabbit holes we went down, I had come across something that was, I have to share, I'm, I'm saving this for the end because I guarantee you that what I have is the much more horrible infuriating thing. And I don't think we should lead off with that. That's when I was hooked and I was thinking, Yeah. And thinking like, well, I half have to to talk about it, just, but trust me that there's so much that this relates to, that are themes that are important to us in the show, and it's just fucking fascinating history, and I've unlocked some new research techniques that I didn't think of that are just, now I just want to do that. And anyway, um, those teasers aside, why don't we start with the basics, so Stennis

0:11:18 Lydia: We're gonna do a slow build yeah yeah

0:11:45 Thomas: In addition to being a boat and a, and a test facility, yeah Stennis McStennis Face, who is, who, who was he, not

0:11:48 Lydia: He Was a man first. Yeah. Okay. John Stennis, John Cornelius Stennis. Great middle name. Was a senator from Mississippi. And he was a senator from Mississippi during the Dixiecrat timeframe. So this was a period of, you know, Jim Crow and racial segregation and moving Moving through the civil rights era and everything. And a lot of the southern states, you interested in that.

0:12:20 Lydia: Yeah. Not not huge fans. Thurmond wrote the Southern Manifesto and he helped write it with him. The Southern Manifesto was signed by mostly slaveholding states and their representatives basically saying that they were not fans of integration in the wake of Brown v. Board and response to that. And this guy, ma'am. Yeah. Initially saw that information. I was like, OK, cool. Racist senator from Mississippi. Got it.

0:12:18 Thomas: Huge fans yeah and like, already we're like, oh, okay, yeah, well, something shouldn't be named after that fucking guy but there's so much more to talk about, yeah

0:12:52 Lydia: Yeah, yeah, not good. Yeah. And then when you told me, you're like, hey, I stumbled on this crazy stuff that I'm not going to tell you about because I'm a tease and you're just going to have to wait.

0:13:03 Thomas: And I did a little dance with like a feather boa and was like Like, I'm not, it'll

0:13:07 Lydia: Yeah, yeah. Said, you know, like, Hey, poke around, see like if there's anything else you can find on him. And I stumbled on some stuff that's really, gross.

0:13:18 Thomas: Probably be better. And then I'll be like, well, shit, nevermind. I should have gone first.

0:13:21 Lydia: Yeah, we'll fix it in post. But you know, what the setup is, is this guy did not like racial integration. He thought segregation was was the way to go.

0:13:33 Thomas: You say he thought segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever? Name is George Wallace, uh,

0:13:38 Lydia: Yeah. There was So as part of my research, I stumbled State, and they have a big John C. Stennis sort I guess, of archived things, you know, correspondence with constituents. Constituents. And, you Stennis did like weekly radio addresses for his constituents while he served, which I think is like pretty cool.

0:14:02 Thomas: Yeah, it is actually.

0:14:04 Lydia: And so I was listening to a lot of that audio, reading a lotof the correspondence that he had. I have some things to share with that. But funny that you just mentioned George Wallace. Was That like a some sort of forum that he was participating in. It wasn't the weekly address. And one of the questions was about whether he would support George Wallace for his 1968 campaign. And he really sidestepped it. Knew that he couldn't say yes.

0:14:28 Thomas: Really?

0:14:29 Lydia: Yeah, I

0:14:29 Thomas: Was that just him running like for governor or do you run for president?

0:14:33 Lydia: Presidential campaign. Because he was run. Running as an independent.

0:14:34 Thomas: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Know all this in my brain and now I'm realizing, crap, I've learned a bunch of new stuff about Stennis and boats and crap. And I've just went to that file because like those, politics is just the most interesting thing. And I do remember like didn't work the same way back then. There's the whole thing, anyway, there's a lot of interesting stuff there, and so this is him running for president in 1968, which

0:15:01 Lydia: Yeah. Running for president 1968 as an independent against Nixon and Hubert Humphrey.

0:15:08 Thomas: Is amazing, being like, this Nixon isn't racist enough, I need, I need to do a third party run. I'm

0:15:13 Lydia: Yeah, yeah. Crazy. He ended up getting 13 and a half percent of the vote nationwide. He carried Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Louisiana and Mississippi. And I wonder or who Stennis voted for.

0:15:24 Thomas: Trying to think, yeah, is there like a pattern to which states? I don't know, I can't think of what that would be, just a random cluster, I think just To Be

0:15:31 Lydia: Yeah. Just, you know, spread out by not.

0:15:34 Thomas: Through just a fucking bag of marbles on a map of the United States, you might end up with that pat, it's just random.

0:15:42 Lydia: Yeah. Know, it is not the most that like any third party candidate has won. But yeah, I think it is interesting that it is such a concentrated area for a third party to win.

0:15:51 Thomas: But I want to just signpost something that I'm constantly thinking of, that is actually one of the reasons I'm, I want to do the part that I am Doing on this episode, which, this is particular to me and maybe you, but also think it's particular to a lot of people roughly our age and Roughly our race, which is being raised in the 90s, I, in California, I cannot communicate enough how much we were raised in a post -racial lens where it's like, yeah, racism was, was a thing they solved in the 60s, the march and the speeches, and then, and then they fixed it, like, I'd it wasn't that explicit, but like that was kind of, especially as a conservative, now, of it, like, of me personally kind of learning that the way I learned things was wrong, and cannot tell you how much as a conservative I had the mindset that like racism has been solved and all that was happening now is black people, people were still just complaining about stuff. I cannot, that is a mainstream conservative view.

0:15:59 Lydia: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

0:16:55 Thomas: Absolutely mainstream. And was back then and it is now. It could be worse now. I feel like it's regressed now because the more time goes by, the more conservatives, especially white conservatives, are like, it's even been further since we've fixed everything, so how are you still complaining? And discovering just how much out and out fucking racism has forever, and even up until today, in ways that, as someone who's not from the South and has spent no significant time in the South, it's still hard to keep in mind how, for example, Stennis is just unambiguously a hero in these, like, we look at this historical, you collections, it's all, it's ubiquitous positivity about Stennis and people

0:16:58 Lydia: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, he's

0:17:42 Thomas: Of that generation.

0:17:42 Lydia: He served in the Senate for 41 years.

0:17:45 Thomas: Hero of the Senate. And it is just crazy how recently things, there's still racism, but like how recently there was open, you know, support of segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever. That's a blink of an eye ago, you know, and so now having grown up more and seeing how quickly time goes by, it's like I learning this stuff in 1990 fucking four or whatever, you know, like that's five minutes from when this happened. It's crazy like how short time really is, and when you're a little kid and you're learning about these black and white things that happened in, you know, in looked all different, you're like, god, that was a, that was eternity ago.

0:17:46 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:18:28 Thomas: I'm glad we glad fixed all that, it's that's a big part of again, teaser for my section, like it's a while ago, it's also so fucking recent. And when you see the depths of the horrors of it, that also makes it even more salient that all that long ago. Okay. Apologies. Please continue.

0:18:45 Lydia: That's all right. Right. Stennis, know, we talked a little bit about how he sidestepped that George Wallace question. He was, as I mentioned, staunchly opposed to desegregating public schools. He voted against the Civil Rights Acts of 1964, 1968, the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

0:19:01 Thomas: I tell you, there's no way he sidestepped that question because of like being sensitive to racism. It's probably because of the electoral politics involved.

0:19:06 Lydia: So, yes. So that, that is one thing that I wanted to bring up in my research. There was someone who people appreciated because he was more polite. Right. He wasn't a demagogue when it came to racism, it more like informed his politics. And his position. Yes.

0:19:26 Thomas: He's like segregation now, please.

0:19:30 Lydia: But but he went about it.

0:19:30 Thomas: Segregation tomorrow, if you can, If you don't mind segregation,

0:19:32 Lydia: Exactly. Exactly. Constitution, would appreciate it. Yeah.

0:19:35 Thomas: No.

0:19:35 Lydia: Yeah, he, you compare him to the people that he beat out. It was a special election that he won initially and ended up, you getting reelected and reelecting. And that first special election, he beat out two like literal white supremacists who were like very out and proud of supremacist. And he might have been one, too. He probably was one, two. But it wasn't his campaign tagline, you now. And he was able to kind of just approach it in a way that was more like, I, a bowl of soup for people. Right. It was just kind of like easy going.

0:20:08 Thomas: Old racist soup.

0:20:09 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah, nothing like too spicy. See.

0:20:09 Thomas: Yeah. Campbell's chunky Campbell's chunky racist soup, oh.

0:20:15 Lydia: Some of the people who cast Dennis in a more positive light these days or if they've talked about him, post you -death and everything, they'll say, hey, you knew he came around. He voted for extending Extending the Voting Rights Act in 1982. And yes, he did. He did vote. But that was also during a reelection campaign that was thought to be pretty competitive for him at that time. And he needed the support of black voters. So, you never came out and said exactly why he voted for it. But he turned around one year later, after he was comfortably in his seat, to vote against recognizing Martin Luther King Jr. Day as a federal holiday. And he was one of four Democrats and 18 Republicans who voted against it. And his spokesperson at the time said that Stennis thought, in quotes, we already had more than enough holidays. Days.

0:21:08 Lydia: So, his position on extending the Voting Rights Act definitely feels like it was a calculated choice because he knew he had a reelection campaign coming up. Some things that I wanted to talk about specifically related to kind of his trajectory and to, I do not know, demonstrate how racist this guy is.

0:21:08 Thomas: Boy, hold

0:21:27 Lydia: I, you have some of the correspondence that I mentioned with some constituents, and there's this one from 1949 from constituent that it goes on for a literal full page. I won't read the entire thing, but I did want to clue in on a little bit of this. Um, I will be saying the word negro and it makes me very uncomfortable. Um, please know I'm quoting it from these materials. And this is regarding black people serving in the military. So this is 1949. And this particular constituent, it's all redacted, of course, says, "Seems as if President Truman is strongly bent on the civil rights program. I am of the opinion that President Truman does not understand the Negro problem of the South. There are not very many Negroes living in the section of Missouri where President Truman was born and reared. What Negroes that they have in that part of Missouri are entirely different from most of the Negroes we have in the South."

0:22:22 Lydia: I am of the opinion that President Truman did not learn very much about the Southern Negroes while he was in the service during World War I. During World War I, the Negro soldiers sold the French people on the idea that they were American Indians, which was an outright misrepresentation, having duty, Negro soldiers have always proven to be a complete failure in wartime.

0:22:22 Thomas: Bad fucking Christ, what Jesus.

0:22:44 Lydia: Yeah, yeah. During World War I, the Negro division that was tried out for frontline duty proved to to be a complete failure for frontline duty. I've been informed that there or two Negro divisions tried out for frontline due in Italy. The Germans got wise some way about the Negro troops and the German troops went through that part of the line like a dose of salts through a sick person.

0:23:03 Thomas: Fucking Christ, yeah.

0:23:04 Lydia: So this goes on for page. It's

0:23:07 Thomas: You know, here's the other thing about the old tiny past, they had a lot of time to talk about their racism. I have, there's other stuff where I want to read a lot of it, but it goes on for fucking hours. There's some they're like, there's not, there wasn't even a sense back then of like, okay, they were like, no, tell me more about the a southern negro, please, sir.

0:23:12 Lydia: It's so much. It'S so So much.

0:23:31 Thomas: What, uh, I might ask was he, uh, about how ineffective black people were in war, why?

0:23:31 Lydia: Yeah, So he says, "If plan has ever tried to force social equality between Negroes and whites in this section of country, it would result in outright rebellion and mutiny." Knee. He mentions that white girls that stand for what is right would not want to enter the service and have to be mixed and mingled with Negroes. And then he says, "I appreciate what you have done to prevent enactment of laws along the line of FEPC, anti-lynching, anti poll tax, anti segregation and other laws that would have a tendency to try and force social equality between Negroes and whites.

I know that you will do your best to try to stop the legislation that's been advocated for political purpose. Is a horrible, racist constituent. And then I know, he it was Christmas holidays and stuff. And so he apologizes for not responding sooner. And dann he says, I appreciate very much your views on such legislation as FEPC and anti -lynching, et cetera, and assure you that it is my intention to continue to fight against this legislation. With best wishes and kindest regards, I am sincerely yours. Yeah. So not a great start. 1949. Not a great start.

0:24:13 Thomas: This An racist writes in, is like, hey. Hey, I'm worried about, you, social equality in the form of Chex Notes, lynching, anti-lynching laws. Stennis is like, no, but I got you. Please. Yeah. I'm on it.

0:24:54 Lydia: Yeah. Don't worry. I'm staunchly against those things. Yep. 1954, he receives a letter from a teacher who's a constituent. And this man, this was very very depressing to read. So this is June 6, 1954. individual says, My dear Senator, today I listened to your discussion of segregation in the Southern schools. You are very right in what you have to say concerning racial differences. I teach in a high school where many Negro youngsters attend.

0:25:00 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, God.

0:25:26 Lydia: Some are very good students. Others are stupid. Those that cooperate are a minority. Discipline is a terrific problem. A teacher does not put a hand on one. The white youngsters profit by the situation and the teacher has a very rough time of it. Basically saying like they don'T feel comfortable hitting black kids. So now like white kids are being even worse as a result.

0:25:49 Thomas: Okay. Yeah.

0:25:50 Lydia: We have a policeman close at hand at all times. Is a huge psychological problem for these youngsters. By a sense of inferiority and carry a chip on their shoulder and are different. Maybe no child should be born with this stigma. I pity the teachers who will have half white and half colored youngsters in their classes. Should you have the two races together, I suggest that there be colored teachers for colored kids and that all the hardships of this reconstruction agony, in quotes, be not put upon teachers.

0:26:27 Lydia: Yeah. And and then he just had kind of a funny closing paragraph where he says, in another generation or so, having the two races in one classroom may work out all right. The white youngsters do very well and have a sincere regard for the their colored kids. They are far ahead of us as an older generation and accepting all races as equal.

0:26:27 Thomas: Christ, Man. To My, okay. Wow.

0:26:49 Lydia: Don't you just lean into that then, sir?

0:26:47 Thomas: That's a that's an interesting bit of, like, self -awareness of this awful racist that is, okay, okay. Where that nowadays, where the people we cover on here are like, "No, the kids are fucking losing their minds about gender and they're wrong, and I'm right." I mean, again, this fucking awful racist from 1954 or whatever is like, you know, credit to the youngsters, they're doing a lot better with this integration thing than I'm doing. Wow.

0:27:18 Thomas: Jesus Christ, this just shows how fucking backwards a lot of the people today are, that they think they're going to be the first generation that's like, "Nope, too much progress has been had," and then they're gonna be right about it.

0:26:52 Lydia: Yeah yeah yeah um yeah yeah yep yep yep Well, us some Stennis material. This is Stennis initiating contact with someone who we do not know. Is to somebody in Mississippi that to he in 1954, and it, this letter is for your information and merely an effort to briefly discuss the school situation. I have been disappointed that a financial program has not been adopted by our state legislators, because I felt that whichever way the decision on segregation goes here, we would be better off in Mississippi to have the program adopted. The same time, I have felt all the time that if the United States Supreme Court should declare segregation illegal within itself, that this would mean that no tax dollar could be lawfully spent in a public school which enforces segregation, and thus we would be forced to spend our educational tax dollars on some other system than an outright public school system, because to huddle our children together on a non -segregated basis would certainly bring a mongrelized race within a few generations.

0:28:29 Thomas: Yikes.

0:28:30 Lydia: That was appalling to I saw that. Is like one of the most blatant things that I've seen him write. Right. Read a lot of these letters.

0:28:39 Thomas: Because you got to remember, he didn't, this wasn't a shameful view for these people. They're like, no, you don't understand. Maybe you didn't hear me correctly. It's going to become a mongrel race if we allow blacks and whites. Like they were, they're proud of this, we have to get out of our mindset of our white millennial mindset of like, well, surely this must have been like a secret letter that, no, no, this is, they were proud of these views, you

0:28:43 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, so awful. Let's. And he closes it. Of course, do not know when the decision will be handed down here nor its contents. But I judge that it will be before too long. And I am considerably discouraged by the prospects as to just what the ruling will be. What rumors and straws in the wind that I have heard. And they are, of coarse, just rumors, have been discouraging. So he kind of saw Brown v. Board turning out the way that it turned out, right?

And I have a couple more pieces I wanted to share. This one's from 1962, is a letter from a constituent that is an article by Mr. Holmes Alexander titled, "However, Bob Kennedy Didn't Mention the Increase in Crime and Immorality," again, 1962, '62. This says, "It is requested that you send this to Mr. Bob Kennedy as the expression of the thoughts of many Southerners, if you deem it proper to do so. The Brothers Kennedy just may be interested in knowing something of the strength of the smoldering sentiment against their efforts to change so drastically our way of life toward the example rapidly being achieved in the capital." And essentially what this is saying is, yeah, know, the increase in crime that's happening as a result of integration. And Stennis responds, "Bonds, this is a special word of thanks for your excellent and most timely letter with reference to the crime situation in Washington and the attitude of the Attorney General.

Frankly, your letter is very much in line with an address which I made on the Senate floor recently, pointing out the serious situation which faces the nation's capital, all because of the coddling of members of the Negro race and the leaders of both political parties seeking their vote. Records of the Police Department of the District of Columbia show that 80% % of all crimes in Washington are committed by Negroes and 94% % of all robberies are committedby Negroes." Uh -huh, right?

"Is apparent that the plan of the integrationists to make Washington a model city of integration has succeeded in numbers and percentages, but it has also succeeded in making Washington a Model City of crime. I will

0:29:54 Thomas: So Yeah.

0:30:58 Lydia: Continue efforts to force integration.

0:30:59 Thomas: So What you're saying is San Francisco is, is, look, the same thing. Isn't it amazing? It's all the same logic of your your liberal cities are overrun. Exactly the fucking same.

0:31:06 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. With crime. Yep. Yep. Is 1964, June 1964.

0:31:21 Thomas: Like, you heard that new Beatles record? God, that thing fucking slays.

0:31:22 Lydia: And God, I wish I wish. So this this letter from this constituent is also awful. They're all awful. I don't know why I keep prefacing with it.

0:31:32 Thomas: Yeah, there's not going to be like a good one. What are you talking about?

0:31:34 Lydia: Yeah. I'm just going to skip to certain parts of this one. However, I have a couple criticisms to make. Why haven't you and all other Southern senators demanded that President Johnson send federal marshals to New York City to protect the white people from Negro punks? Have far more right to do this than Senator Javis and Senator Keating has demanding federal marshalls be sent to Mississippi for the situation up there, according to reports, are far worse up there than in Mississippi. I think it's time and apologies for the language here, folks. I'm reading it literally verbatim and there are missing words and whatnot. Whatnot. Little men, in quotes, like the above mentioned, be put in their place.

I'm surprised that all of you from the Southern group haven't gotten together and demanded that federal marshals be stationed on buses, streetcars, and residential neighborhoods to protect the masses of people from stabbing, rape, and getting beat up by Negro punks in New York City. Thing, why don't you and other congressmen and Senator Eastland from Mississippi exposed the fact that 26 .5 % of Negro children born in Mississippi in 1962 was born out of wedlock, compared to 1 .5 percent for whites. And

0:32:49 Lydia: The fact that in the same year venereal disease among Negroes was five times greater than that of white.

0:32:54 Thomas: My God. Okay. No fucking chance that 1 .5 % of white people were born out of wetlands. There's absolutely no chance of that.

0:32:56 Lydia: I know. I know it's just lies. Recently talked to a group of Northerners who were shocked and said they did not blame us for not wanting to mix with them with this much difference in the morals of the two races. I think it's time that the people in the South hear it. Senators and congressmen speak out on radio, television and newspapers and demand that Martin Luther King and his group and his efforts in the the National Council of Churches spend their time, money and efforts in this South and Christian Leadership to raise the morals of the Negro before they try to force the Negroes into the society of the white people. This making too much of the men we the people sent to Washington to represent us? Blech.

0:33:35 Thomas: Fucking yikes. But still, again, I cannot get over. We need to send troops to the cities where there's too much crime because of the brown people. That it's today. It's still today. But It's mainly about, you know, illegal immigrants or whatever bullshit. But, like, that's the same fucking thing.

0:33:47 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. He Yeah. Responds is a special word of thanks for your letter and I want to commend you for your appraisal of the situation. It is the people of Chicago and New York who should have relief from the reign of terror which has been going on in those cities for years. Frankly I am opposed to the meddling of the federal government in any city or state. Those who are in favor of federal encroachment on state and local authority can very well devote their activities to Chicago or New York. Your letter and shall certainly use it in an appropriate way.

0:34:22 Lydia: Is a horrible, horrible person. So a lot of letters like that. That's just, you a sampling. But we're also really lucky, I guess, lucky to have him speak in his own words. And so I sent you over some clips from those weekly radio video segments if you want to pull those up. Can start with the one regarding race riots. It

0:34:21 Thomas: Wow. I

0:34:47 Clip: Rights will have on the passage of civil rights legislation pending now before the Congress? Well, I don't think the civil rights bills this year were going to be passed anyway. Way. But now they're dead as Hector. And I hope they, and think they will stay that way for the rest of this session and many sessions to come. This is going to be a lesson to a lot of people in the country who have not realized heretofore just how this matter will operate.

0:35:18 Lydia: Saying the race riots are going to have a completely negative effect on the civil rights bills and that they're dead in the water. There's no way they're going to pass. The race riots are just making it worse.

0:35:29 Thomas: Could not help that, "dead as Hector" Is An Old Phrase Well, okay, so there's an idiom my dad used to say, and even when my dad said it, he was like, yeah, this is this is from a long time ago, which my Dad is saying something he used to say when Hector was a pup, and So now I'm hearing the "dead is Hector," I'm like, is this the same, I to know the relationship between Hector and Hector as a pup. Is now that's a new deep dive. Stop the episode. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, no. Okay. I got distracted by that, of course. What did I miss? Racism?

0:35:31 Lydia: Yeah. Did you look it up?

0:35:42 Lydia: Oh, yeah.

0:36:04 Lydia: Racism and, you how dare people riot at all. And

0:36:08 Thomas: But He Predicted the civil rights legislation was as dead as Hector. Wow.

0:36:12 Lydia: Yes, dead as Hector.

0:36:14 Thomas: A Nostradamus. I

0:36:15 Lydia: One is about the march on Washington. This

0:36:17 Clip: I'm very deeply concerned about this so -called March on Washington, which is in reality a March on the Congress, which will take place on August 28th of this week. I think that a grave constitutional question is involved here. It's not a matter of tradition and custom. I have the Constitution here before me, which properly provides that people shall always have the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances, right to peaceably assemble. But that's really not the question involved here. This constitutional vision relates to consultations and interviews and letters and exchange of ideas. This is a mass march on the Congress in an effort to intimidate and coerce and politically politically blackmailing.

0:37:22 Thomas: To clarify, this is the famous "I have a dream" speech, like This is that march On Washington For jobs and freedom, right?

0:37:25 Lydia: Yes. Yeah. Yes.

0:37:31 Clip: It's not only a fraud, but it seriously challenges our form of representative institutional government. This march is now estimated to cost 200 ,000 people. We coming in here composed of Negroes and whites, coming in during the night of Tuesday and here all day Wednesday and take them all night, of course, some more to get out. The Senate and the House will, of course, then be in session, and actually the members of the Congress are invited to take part in the parade, many of them thereby being put on the spot to a degree.

0:38:14 Thomas: So It hasn't happened Yet. This is Like a week Before It. Okay. Yeah.

0:38:17 Clip: Now, I hope this assembly here will be peaceful, but police evidently think there's a strong chance that it will not be because they're planning to have 8,000 policemen here to keep order. This includes 2,000 extra national guardmen and 2,000 special marshals, over 1,800 military police, and according to the Washington Daily News, 75 dog teams will be on duty. Now, this group will be led by William Randolph, and his deputy will be Bayard Rustin, a man who has a jail record and who was a member of the Young Communist League in his earlier days. They will talk about the better jobs and better salaries and integrated schools and other so -called civil rights. Now, I am trying

0:38:02 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. So -called civil rights. It's

0:39:21 Thomas: Yep.

0:39:25 Clip: To improve their lot, to improve their work, improve their job. And I want everyone to have a job. I certainly do not favor taking a job away from a man because he's white and giving it to a man because he is colored. And that's about what they're asking for here in New York and elsewhere. By the way, I saw some figures the other day. The income of our Negro citizens in the United States is estimated to be $23 billion, which is just slightly less than all the income of all the people of Canada put together. Certainly that's no small amount. I find that most of the salaries of Negroes, the equal salaries of white people, are comparable training and comparable knowledge and equal preparation.

0:39:42 Lydia: Always been the Same, yeah.

0:39:43 Thomas: That's How it's Gonna Work even

0:40:25 Clip: Find, too, that the average salary of a Negro citizen in the United States is in excess of the average salaried of a citizen, say, of England or Germany.

0:40:39 Thomas: The fucking gender wage gap arguments. No. You Don't understand, when you control for the same shit, it's always the same, same shit. Yeah.

0:40:43 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, obviously did a little fact checking on this guy, uh, Wasn't able to track down that Canada comment that He Made.

0:40:53 Thomas: I Don't know, back in The day You used to be able to just say, I saw some facts and figures, and they were whatever the fuck I'm about to say. What Was anyone gonna do? Oh, yeah.

0:41:03 Lydia: Foghorn Leghorn, um, Yeah.

0:41:06 Thomas: Give me The Link for that if

0:41:07 Lydia: I Know. What, what page of the encyclopedia Did You find That From

0:41:10 Thomas: Something was Like typed Then It Was Like, well, that must be official. Then I guess. Well,

0:41:13 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. In 1940, weekly wages of the average black male were 48.4 percent that of the average white male, and then the Civil Rights Act of 1964 helped improve that wage gap. In 1990, it had risen to 75 percent of a in the wage gap, which was great, which, and then unfortunately, there's been like some dips and stuff here and there. But certainly was not comparable. There's no way, there's no, no way it was comparable in terms of black and white wages back in 1963.

0:41:47 Thomas: You're comparing apples and oranges and You're like, well well, it was, you know, the number of black, well, let's just fucking, okay, let me do some quick Googling. Okay, how many black people were there in America in 19, okay. We got 19 million, roughly speaking. All right, now let's look, population of Canada, what, the entire population of China was less than that in 1960. So is that comparison the

0:41:49 Lydia: Yeah.

0:42:17 Lydia: Don't know. There's just too many factors. It doesn't make any sense.

0:42:20 Thomas: It's more people, and it also, I don't even know that he's got the currency right, like, honestly, was it that Canadian Dollars Or is that we Don't know, but there's all, I know is I'm just doing quick Googling, which he could have fucking done back then, you minute to Google it, Mr., were more black people in the U.S. than the entire Canadian population at that time. So Yeah.

0:42:27 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah, great point.

0:42:42 Lydia: Mm hmm.

0:42:43 Thomas: Okay, what is that stat supposed to be? So

0:42:45 Lydia: Yeah? This next one's 1968 regarding the fair housing act.

0:42:49 Clip: Stennis, for almost two months, the Senate was involved in a debate on civil rights. What does this indicate to you? Well, it taught some lasting lessons to me and many others here in this way. First, you just must make the entire country understand the meaning of these these far -reaching bureaucratic bills, the power they carry, and also how this will affect the people in their daily lives.

Number two, it was an amazing thing to me that this housing bill, which really invaded the rights of all the people, not just one group, even down to their own dwelling houses as to whom they could sell it to or rent it to, or lease a home, or room in the home, that a matter of that importance could be hollered up and gained so much support, mainly on the ground, that, well, we must do this in order to stop the marches or hold down there would be riders.

I just can't understand the logic and common sense, even if it is election year, of how we, the United States Senate, the appreciable part of it, could yield to an argument of that kind. We'll have more questions on this and other subjects in just one. I

0:43:16 Thomas: First Question, um, say some racist kind of drunk sounding ramblings. Well, sure. Well, I think the bureaucracy, like, the literally the talk about softball question, it Was, hey, um, Senate is debating civil rights, What does that mean to you? I

0:44:32 Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. Know. Yeah. Like the Fair Housing Act.

0:44:43 Thomas: Know, I just, I just love it, I just love it, because if you're a neophyte, if, like, when I was a certain age, and you heard these same arguments, you're like, well, yeah, the government getting their dirty paws on things, the bureaucracy, like, there's a certain plausibility to it, you, the government getting the whatever, but it's funny now when you see it through the lens of, like, no, this has always been the fucking game, it's, if you ever try to make things slightly better for non-white people, The these, like, oh, it's just imposing upon us, they can get, get your hands, the government's going to come tell you what, all these arguments, all these libertarian sounding arguments, they all have the, they go back forever and they're all the same fucking thing.

0:45:12 Lydia: Yeah.

0:45:30 Lydia: A documentary from Mississippi Public Broadcasting System. I'll include that for folks to watch if they want to check it out. It's really well done. And, you hearing from some folks that were there in Mississippi at this time and kind of reflecting on what that experience was like. And some of them shared that more black people voted in the 50s than they did in the 60s in Mississippi because of the things that were put in the way. And Stennis defends literacy tests in A statement that he issued in 1963 regarding rights. He says, further, it is proposed that literacy be presumed where an applicant to vote possesses a sixth grade education. Even the Supreme Court has recognized the right of the states to impose a reasonable literacy test. And the federal government has no authority whatever in this field. It was that it was like poll taxes. You know, it was just it was everything, thing.

And hearing that from folks in that video that, voting looked like for black people in the 50s in Mississippi versus what it looked like in the 60s was just really, really and really important, I think, also to watch and just to kind of see how hard they were fighting to be able just, to cast a ballot, something that the rest of us certainly probably take for granted, um,

0:46:02 Thomas: My God.

0:46:47 Thomas: Nothing screams space exploration like everything that I just heard. I would like to name a, a building and a ship and whatever after this guy. I

0:46:52 Lydia: So mean he was involved in, uh, budget for NASA, um, was something that he oversaw, um, helped fight for additional funding for them and stuff, so there was like some involvement there, um, you whoop, I don't know, it's just, it's, yeah, not very striking, I guess. Yes. Last thing I do want to share. Well, actually, two last things I want to share.

Constituent letter that I stumbled on, not related to race, but 1977, someone to him and said, "It is our understanding that the Senate may soon take up S995, which requires the inclusion of pregnancy and abortion under employee benefit plans. As you know, this bill was introduced to overturn a Supreme Court decision which upheld the right of employers to exclude time loss for these reasons from sick pay plans." This constituent is a business person, does not want to do this.

"Do not feel, however, that we should be obligated to pay her salary during her absence from work under the formula that we use for a regular illness." He responds, "Grateful for your recent letter letting me know of your opposition to S -995, which would amend the Civil Rights Act to prohibit discrimination based on pregnancy. As I'm sure you know, I agree completely with your position. Unfortunately, despite my vote against this bill, it passed overwhelmingly. I regret that I could not be more encouraging." Yeah.

So he also felt that people who get pregnant should be discriminated against in a workplace and that'd be perfectly fine. And last thing I want to share is just kind of some difference in memorial tributes. There was a document put together when he passed away. Again, he served in the Senate for 41 years. Through like quite a lot, to be honest, like some of the things I read about him. He was robbed by like two teenagers.

0:48:38 Thomas: Was gonna say, if it makes you feel any better, two black kids shot him at some point. So

0:48:43 Lydia: Yeah, the 70s. And so that happened. And then his wife died. He still was serving and then he got cancer and lost his leg and was, you going to chambers in a wheelchair.

0:49:05 Lydia: And interested in, you rules and procedures. And he really cared about, like, the institution. So And he, you efforts in those ways. But he's still a racist. These memorial tributes that were part of this documentation at the end of his life, one was from the Clarion Ledger newspaper. And it says early in his career, he was, as were most Southern political leaders, a staunch segregationist. But Stennis came to understand that the issue of racism was tearing apart America and became an ardent supporter for equality. He did not change his ways because it was politically popular, which, of course, it was not, but because it Was the right thing to do, period. Therein lies the difference between a politician and a political leader. There's zero evidence for that.

0:49:46 Thomas: The Fuck is that even talking about? Did

0:49:48 Lydia: It's nonsense. Indianapolis News has a more reasonable take. Their says, He was a good man, but a good man often can serve a bad cause. Certainly did. He was one of the roadblocks on the journey to end institutionalized racial discrimination in this country. For nearly a quarter century, Stennis opposed every civil rights measure or activity that came before the country. He condemned the 1954 Brown v. Topeka Board of Education Supreme Court decision that ended school segregation. He resisted attempts to pass anti -lynching bills and measures that would end the discriminatory poll tax and literary tests for Black voters. He voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and the Civil Rights Act of 1968. When it came to race, he was wrong, wrong, and then later, to his credit, Stennis eventually saw the light. In 1983, near the end of his long career, he voted to extend the Voting Rights Act. Yeah, but a more More reasonable take than Clarion Ledger.

0:50:39 Thomas: He, yeah. Yeah. There Was I Know, but I love it. You Know, he eventually saw the light. There was a bill that was passing 83 to 8, and he probably went, ah, and then they're Like Okay, Well, That's, the that's good enough. Don't you understand, He's a fucking saint because fucking vote. Stupid, the, like, bar for you reclaiming your entire legacy. And, uh, we haven't even gotten to the worst part.

0:50:47 Lydia: Trying to get reelected. OK, fine. Yeah.

0:51:08 Lydia: Yeah, I will say, you New York Times ran that article about renaming the Space Center, they reached out to his daughter and she said the to remove her father's name from the Space Center and a similar effort to rename the USS John C. Stennis a Navy aircraft carrier were going too far, in quotes. And then her quote, my father was a segregationist at a period in history, but I can tell you there was nothing racist about him.

0:51:09 Thomas: Oh

0:51:35 Lydia: She's 82 when they quote her, by the way. Yeah, yeah. And one of his grandchildren also says that they opposed the call to rename named the Space Center. He said his grandfather's vote to extend the Voting Rights Act and his support of Mike Espy's successful 1986 campaign to become Mississippi's first Black representative in Congress since Reconstruction were signs that his stance on segregation had changed. K.

0:51:36 Thomas: My God No, Way, oh, That's Great, yeah.

0:51:52 Thomas: Sure.

0:52:02 Thomas: That's enough, yeah. Yep, you I also didn't realize it was a fucking aircraft carrier. That's bigger. That's a bigger boat.

0:52:04 Lydia: Yeah. Gonna need more to sink that boat.

0:52:13 Thomas: That's, god damn it. Think a perfect teaser for my part of this, which you absolutely must hear, is his daughter saying he wasn't racist. He says, look, he might have supported, you segregation at a time in history. I love that. She didn't even bother finishing that thought. Look, he supported segregation at the time in his life.

0:52:37 Lydia: Yes, it was a time in history.

0:52:38 Thomas: Oh, okay. Yeah, I didn't. I thought it was the future. Okay. Never mind. So he didn't support it like in the year 2525. Okay. A time and history. You don't even bothered to say like the rest of that fucking stupid sentence. A time in history when, you know, it was fine that white people did that, we're cool with it, right? We were all cool, right, I thought we were fucking cool and you're gonna be mad at him, I love it, you don't even have to finish the sentence, he was supported and there was, it was a time period is the thing, there are years involved and months, and also it was the past.

So he's fine. Well, um, going a little weird chronologically on you because my stuff is from when Hector was a pup, that's my stuff is from when he first, when dipping into public, uh, of any kind, and it's fucking horrible, so uh, get ready, I, it's awful, it's like truly awful, um, I don't want to create like a cheery environment around it because it sucks, but like, cannot not tell you all about this, so um, rename fucking Stennis Center and, and the goddamn, here's

0:52:58 Lydia: Yeah.

0:53:25 Lydia: No, man. And the boat.

0:53:44 Thomas: What we'll do, crash the aircraft carrier into the Stennis Space Center and they can both blow up, or just rename, those are the two options, whichever you find more budgetarily you, yeah. So fucking, another part we have to, we have, you have to hear this, anyway, next time on Where There's Woke, Jesus fucking Christ, racism was so fucking horrible and prevalent, I can't even believe what I'm going to read you guys, see you next time.

0:53:55 Lydia: Sound. Yeah,

0:54:32 Thomas: Uh, what the fuck, it was, was any, so, so obviously.

0:54:35 Lydia: Yeah he wrote in cursive, so I'm trying to read through it.

0:54:41 Thomas: Bane of millennial existence. Cursive.

0:54:44 Lydia: Yeah. For