SIO395: Are We Complicit In A Genocide?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:16 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only, this is episode 395, I'm your host Thomas Smith, and I finally can make sounds that are like human speech, so yeah, you may be hearing it if you listen to different shows of mine, you're starting to hear recordings where my voice is just not there, it's, and obviously it doesn't sound great here, but I'm finally back to where feel like I can talk in a way that's not super annoying, you may have noticed this feed hasn't had any episodes in a little while, it's because of that.

I've been sick all of October, you know, I won't bore you with all the details, but two different viruses, at least, it could have been three. Arlo was really sick, he was home for a lot of, a full week with one of the viruses, everything, it was really, really awful. And so my voice got pretty bad because of the second virus. Tried, this is now the third time I'm trying this episode. Um, and I'm finally feeling like I can do it. Uh, first one, it was just, it just sounded awful. I just could barely talk. The second one, my voice just left and I quit.

And now I've been, you know, doing different, whatever, whatever remedies I can think of to do it, so anyway, the point of all this is, usual, uh, apparently I keep thinking this won't happen again, but gosh, life just gets in the way. Uh, there's going to be a flurry of episodes here at the end of the month of stuff that I've been trying to do, but my voice has been gone, so, um, apologies for that, but I hope you'll keep track of them.

I know, actually, Android users are probably fine, but I know now that I switched to iPhone, kind of regretting it, not sure. Uh, the Apple Podcast app is, it just is really terrible. It's specifically letting you know, if there are old episodes of a podcast that you didn't listen to, you play.

0:01:52 Thomas: It's really frustrating. So I guess just heads up, if you take a look in the feed, if there's episodes you didn't listen to, um, because they get lost really easily, easily on on iPhone. Anyway, that's one of the main reasons I hate doing like a flurry of late releases, even though in theory, it's like you can listen to them when you want and it's fine.

But yeah, I really didn't want to put out a bunch of stuff where I sounded like a frog or you couldn't even hear me. Is, believe This me, this is like a massive upgrade. I'm finally sounding okay. And hopefully it'll clear up, maybe even as I talk, we'll see. All right. Other odds and ends, we had our hangout for the Where There's Woke slash SIO top two tier patrons.

That's something that's going to be a monthly hang, it was really fun, we did answer a few questions and do that kind of thing, but honestly that was less fun than just playing games, so that might turn into like a game playing hangout, because that was super fun and I lost real badly in code names to Lydia, so uh, I need to redeem myself. Like, honestly, if that was just like our personal code names battle, that would be fun for us, I don't know if we'll see if it's fun for the patrons, but anyway, that That was a lot of fun. Like I said, that should be every month. It will be every months. We're scheduling it, you know, like ahead of time.

We'll let you know. So, you know, reasons to upgrade, that's top tier patrons of either show. So the top two tiers, to alliterate a little bit, of patreon.com/wherethereswoke or patreon. Com slash series pod. Either way, it's super fun to have you. And that was amazing, I really enjoyed it. We got to know some folks, they maybe got to knows us slightly more, or maybe you already do from listening to years of me.

0:03:25 Thomas: I don't know, but look forward to that each month. We've also recorded Seriously Awful Movies 3, Good Will Hunting, and spoiler alert a little bit, that's actually a pretty good movie. It's fun, we have a discussion about it, but better than I remembered that movie being. I think there's reasons for that, personal reasons, you why that is for me, anyway. Way Um, but uh, one Stormy Decisis was not a big fan of the movie, and there's plenty of bad psychology stuff and uh, brain related stuff to diagnose in goodwill Hunting. So that's Seriously Awful Movies three, that'll be out uh, as soon as we can get it edited, obviously we're a little backed up here. That, it's time to get to the very unpleasant and difficult to talk about topic for today.

0:04:11 Thomas: Right after this little auto ad break that, if you're a patron, you don't have to hear. Patreon.com. So it has been very difficult in the wake of the Hamas attacks on October 7th, basically from then till now, to be an empathetic progressive person without a particular dog in the fight, also remembers 9-11. It's, perhaps you're like me, maybe not, I don't know. I, I worry by the poll numbers I'm seeing, I worry by the wider reaction, um, not just like, you know, nobody's online, but like the world's reaction, people in power's reaction to this, I'm, I'm pretty stunned, I, it seems like we've learned nothing after 9-11. In some ways, my being sick is a double-edged sword. On one hand, I've been wanting to do this episode for a while, at first it was about, you know, doing the research and sure, I making had the right things to say and being a little nervous about that.

0:05:05 Thomas: So that delayed me a bit. Then it was being sick. And on one hand, I think things are a little better now in terms of the environment, just the rhetorical environment, the zeitgeist. And that's good. It feels a little less tense to release any episode doing anything other than like joining in a war cry against Hamas, that feels a little less tense now. On the other hand, when it comes to an issue like this, and it comes to an environment like this where people are maybe a little afraid to talk, I want to be somebody, especially when I truly believe something and when I think a great injustice is happening, I want to be somebody who speaks up early. And I feel like there maybe weren't enough people doing that. And And I feel like I maybe failed a little bit in not being able to do this sooner, but maybe that's even too optimistic.

0:05:50 Thomas: Maybe this is still very badly needed. I'll just say from my perspective, I was really feeling like nobody was voicing anything like a point of view that I identified with in the wake of this attack. I don't think I need to set up like the super basics for you. I assume, I mean, it's everywhere, massive, horrifying, inhumane, evil attack on civilians by Hamas. And then the ensuing reaction, which is the subject I want to talk about, happened on October 7th. And truly, I mean, it's horrifying. I mean the stories, so many first-person accounts, so many social media accounts, that's a big storyline of this is how X, formerly known as Twitter, is completely useless now. It's just ruined. I mean, useless would be an upgrade. I mean it's actively harmful now. I Oh, and I suppose I should kind of like warn people.

0:06:37 Thomas: I mean, obviously you're used to now hearing expert interviews on this show, scientific topics, studies, all that stuff. And this is obviously not that. I am not going to say I'm an expert, because I'm clearly not, on anything like this, but I'm gonna just be talking today. Something I I used to do, something I mainly switched over to Where There's Woke, but there's still that kind of gap where this is something I feel really strongly about that's politically related, but it's not really related to wokeism.

And so I've had to evaluate like, do I just let those things go? Do I not talk about them? And mainly I have, because I do want to be doing different stuff. I do wanna be focusing on science and experts and all that here. But this is is something that I feel like morally I need to talk about. I feel like if I had been of the mindset I am now back during 9-11, which I wasn't, I was conservative, I was, I was a kid, I was like, literally what was I, 15, 14, or whatever, but like I was conservative, and looking back I'm actually, kind of a man, I marvel at some of the voices that, went against the grain, spoke up against the war machine. I'm amazed, like I'm really impressed.

I remember being so cynical back then that I thought it was, ah, you just, you know, this like hippie, dippy, touchy feely liberal thing to do. It's so easy to be anti-war. Oh, you're just doing an impression of what you saw in the sixties as a hippie. You know, I had those like stupid, uninformed, know, conservative viewpoints about my liberal, liberal classmates or liberals in the media I saw who were speaking up against this, I saw it as grandstanding

0:08:10 Thomas: And, you self-important and all that. But again, I want to make clear, as a 14 year old kid who grew up in a conservative shit town, after, now, I look back and I think like how brave a lot of that was, especially in my stupid shit town. Some of the people who spoke up against that, that was not easy. And so I just want to do my small part to to perhaps call into question the wisdom of leaping into another war on terror. And so, yeah, a couple like content notes or just whatever, I don't know, be informed, like I'm going to be talking about this. This is super unpleasant. Obviously, there's a lot of violence, and I'm not going to go into details, although there are a few stories that I need to talk about, I may at least have to reference some gruesome stuff. But know you me, I don't want to do that any more than anyone wants to hear that. I want to use as little as possible.

0:08:56 Thomas: So be forewarned. Also, obviously, this is a super, super duper polarizing issue. Feels like every issue nowadays. But holy shit, this one is way polarizing. And I, I'm aware, I get it. Nobody was saying anything like what I felt needed to be said for weeks, it felt like. Maybe that's an exaggeration, I don't know if that's it might have been weeks. It really worries me, something like this, when we're dealing with war, to hear so many people saying the same thing. Do you not flash back to 9-11 and how truly horrible that ended up for millions of people? And I just wanted to hear somebody else talk about this. And so when Ezra Klein did, um, he put out a very short little little podcast, and it made me feel a lot better. And I mentioned it because he mentioned a Spencer Ackerman quote, uh, who wrote the book Reign of Terror, which I had to immediately grab on Audible because just because of this quote, which you might agree is really, really good.

0:09:52 Thomas: Um, but he wrote a book called Reign of Tower, which is about exactly this kind of the overreaction after nine 11. And I'm excited to have any time to go through that. I haven't had time yet. Uh, but I started it. But anyway, the quote that Ezra quoted from Spencer Ackerman was, essence of the politics of 9-11 was to make scandalous the presentation of context." And I just thought that was so dead on, like this feeling like if you're doing anything other than saying, "Yeah, the terrorists, do you see how horrible they are? The terrorists, look at the evil terrorists, evil terrorists, they got to die, we got to kill them, terrorists, kill them," if you did anything other than that, then it's instantly the suspicion, "Well, what do you know, we are you on their side?" You know, and it's, that is so dangerous. And I just thought that quote really captured it: to make scandalous the presentation of context. And we're seeing that again this month, quite a lot, prominent examples.

0:10:44 Thomas: This is something that may actually filter over to where there's woke, because for every fake complaint about canceling, for every fake free speech, you outrage there is from the anti-woke side, there's some pretty real ones here. You know, I may research them and maybe they aren't what I think they are, but like, I've seen some stuff that strikes me as actual version of the thing that the fire.org, or whatever, like those people are worried about. It's just crazy to me, like how ultimately just unjust that is. I'll get to it. But anyway, that, that, um, Ezra Klein mini little episode did help. Uh, and I just wanted to call that out because, because Ezra Klein is Jewish and, I'm, you sure, has some experience with anti-Semitism and understands like that side of things and that mindset a lot better than I ever could, but also sees the danger here of, so granting that this is incredibly sensitive, want I to say something.

0:11:34 Thomas: Give you, I, I will give you the respect of assuming, until proven otherwise, that you are an empathetic human being who, regardless of what side of this you might be on, can simultaneously recognize humanity of the Israeli victims of the terrorist attacks, and can also recognize the humanity of the Palestinian civilians, much greater number I might add, who are suffering the consequences of this, unless you prove otherwise. And there are plenty of people online who prove otherwise, that you can recognize the humility of both those groups. And all I would ask is that you do the same in return. What motivates me now more than anything, thing I think people who listen to me know, is having had kids, kids, I wouldn't say it like fundamentally changed me because I was already pretty much where I am, but it just made it that much harder to see the kinds of suffering that we see in the world. It just, it's so hard.

0:12:29 Thomas: And to me, it made it all the more important to make sure you are seeing the full picture. Because any of any parent suffering or any person suffering is equally important to me. That come up a lot that strike me as very unjust and very horrifying are when only one group of people's pain is mainly recognized and another group is mainly ignored for the most part, and that I find so hard to stomach, and I find it incredibly important to speak out when that happens.

Know, whether it's like Black Lives Matter, you know, a good example there. I mean, the hyper focus on, "Did you see what that person did to that cop?" Or there was a stop here where that cop almost died, and so therefore that's a dangerous job and they need to come home safe, and there, that's why it's okay if, you know, like the hyperfocus on, like, a cop come home safe every single time, and therefore that hyperfocus for a lot of really, really horrifying behavior to go on criticized by a lot of people. The idea that you're just going to shoot first and questions ask later. You're just gonna pull out your gun, turn situations lethal that didn't need to be lethal. All of that in the name of like, there cannot be a single threat whatsoever to your life as a police officer ever for any length of time.

That, and that, and just ignoring the consequences of that. It's stuff like that. Like that, those are particular times is just really, really motivating. And I see like as it crucial for to speak up because that's an imbalance that maybe can be fixed like in some people. That's a recognition that some people can make.

0:14:11 Thomas: But then face a problem, particularly in a situation like this where all, all of the incentive goes the other way. The, the second you say anything other than "fuck those fucking Hamas terrorist scum, we got to wipe them off the earth," anything at all like, "Well, yeah, but maybe there, there are conditions that possibly to what the situation," like anything like that was, "Oh, okay, you don't care about the babies they murdered." You know, know it's just, it's nuts, there was a lot of that.

And I, I'm pretty sure in a room full of progressives, I would assume most of you would identify as, I know I do, I talked about like, "Okay, you know, the rise of ISIS in some ways was inevitable given how much the West has fucked with that region for decades and decades, if not over a century, and how the Iraq War left a huge power vacuum and there was like no particular plan to fix that once we left," I think it's somewhat inevitable that ISIS would rise up, that somebody would in that power vacuum and things would be horrible. I don't think a single one of you would be yelling at me saying, "Oh, you're okay. You're saying it's okay that ISIS beheaded people? Did you see what they did? You think that's fine? That they have no responsibility because of the West?" And it's like, no, I don't think that. I think that individual people committing acts of evil and atrocities are still responsible.

But I don't think that that kind of awful behavior comes from nowhere. Here. And honestly, I've had a big realization, this may be a significant chunk, a lot of the intellectual project of atheism to do everything they could to convince us that done in the name of Islam is a special thing, is not subject to like these other forces.

0:16:04 Thomas: Like there's no situation, matter how bad, that could explain that it's a particular evil in their minds, of those people or their religion. Religion, in other words. It's, you know, it's Islamophobia, it's the, it's the... Man, and I spent so much time kind of on the wrong side of this as a result of the New Atheists. I'm starting to wonder if this specific conflict, I always thought that was just motivated by 9/11. I always, I was just like, yeah, they really wanted to be able to say like this religion in particular is fucking awful because of that. Not that they're right, but like, that I've always thought like that was the main motivation. I now wonder if this Israel-Palestine issue, and this could just be my ignorance that I didn't think of this, but I wonder if these issue, this conflict, is a large part of that.

0:16:51 Thomas: Because that's what war machine side has to be able to say now. Now, they have to be able to say, no, no. Nothing explains this. No context could possibly all justify this, terrorism. Look at how awful it is. It can't be justified. These specific people and their religion is evil and needs to be eradicated. And I think that is so dangerous because I actually do think there are situations that that are so bad that people develop awful, awful, horrible feelings there that they probably wouldn't have otherwise, even if the same like religious texts exist that might justify it. I'm more of that view now because I think people are pretty much the same everywhere.

0:17:39 Thomas: I think that it takes a lot to get someone to hate someone else that much, to the point of the atrocities you saw Hamas commit. That's truly, cannot understate how evil that is. It bothers me. Like, it's, a lot of what I've seen has really bothered me. It really is truly evil. But I think it can be true that broader circumstances create more of that behavior. And you at all agree with me, then it's worth looking at what those broader circumstances are.

And more importantly, who has control of them? Because that's what's really important. Who has more of a say, the broader sociopolitical, I don't, humanitarian, whatever you want to call it, context now in that region, who has a bigger say over what happens? Is it the people without a country of their own who are basically living in an apartheid state, who almost no real power, no political power, no anything power other than any power they can try to earn by the other side? Is it their responsibility more, or is it the massive military power backed by the United States government, billions of dollars, backed by a lot of the world? Who's more responsible for the situation on the ground? Who has the power to change things there?

Because I don't think it's the Palestinians, the stateless people who like literally don't get to vote in a lot of these situations. I know there's a lot nuance there. There are Palestinians who are citizens of Israel, about 20% of that population, and they do get to vot. But mean, 20%, I don't think they have any real power. It's not, if you look at the situation now, they don't have any real power in Israel.

0:19:20 Thomas: It's not just that there's no Israeli left, there's not even like a more leftward, forget Palestinian, just left-leaning Jewish Israeli political force now in Israel. Hard, hard right-wing, extremely anti-Palestinian people, uh who are in power there and who have, in my my opinion, way more control and therefore way more responsibility over the broader situation. This does not mean, and I feel like I shouldn't even have to say this, this does not mean that any Israeli citizen deserved to be butchered, kidnapped, all this stuff. That does not mean that. I do not believe that. I don't believe that you think I believe that. I think that's a quick out for people. I think people see what is truly one of the most complex and just awful stalemate situations in the world, and they want an easy out from it.

0:20:17 Thomas: They don't want to have to think about, they don't have to sit in the tension of trying to figure out like what can be done, because maybe honestly not much can be done by you or I, I don't know. And people want that easy out, and they want that clean conscience to be able to say, "I found the atrocity. It's from Hamas. Now I can disregard anything that happens to not just Hamas, but like Palestinian citizens, because they're, I guess, also guilty of that." That's what a lot of people want. They want that easy out. And I think that is incredibly morally wrong. They're calling it Israel's 9/11, I keep hearing. That's a little weird, isn't it? I, it was only said in the way that I guess I would say it, which is, shit, this might be Israel's 9/11, as in they're about to do a really horrible thing afterward, then maybe.

0:21:09 Thomas: But that's not really how I heard it, especially early on. It was this weird, it was this bizarre tone, like everyone gets, every country gets one 9/11. You all get one, and then you're allowed to, you kind of do whatever afterwards. It just felt weird. You know what else felt weird? They'd say, "Well, but you don't understand, it was even worse, because if you divided, you some, some algebra, if you divide up the population," I think even Biden said this, it was like 15 9/11s, which were approaching like the punch lines in Team America, that movie from 2004 or whatever, like we're approaching that, but in real life, 15 9/11s. That stuff makes me a little, that feels a little off to me. I don't really think that's how we measure atrocities, is it? I mean, Monaco is a country of 40,000 people, is every murder there worth 9,000 murders here or something? I mean, it doesn't, and I don't think that's how, I'm making too much of this, but I don't know.

0:22:09 Thomas: I feel like it's just another one of the many rhetorical ways that being set up to accept even worse things than the Iraq War, if we're saying 15 9/11s. Why would it be relative to your country's population necessarily? Alaska and Hawaii count? Like, were they ever part? It just is weird. Why wouldn't you use New York, maybe, or something? There's all kinds of ways you could do the comparison. It just feels like, why even, it's already bad enough. It was obviously awful. I don't, when I hear a certain number of people have died, or I guess Americans have died, I don't really think I'm adjusting for population. Something felt off about that to me. Remaining time, I want to talk about how to get anything like accurate information in this day and age with something as polarized as this.

0:22:59 Thomas: It's not easy, but it's something I actually feel like, you through many years of doing this and now through Where There's Woke, which is explicitly what we do, trying to track down as best as we possibly can actual truth things. Of things. It's really hard in this case. And you may feel like there's nothing you can do, kind of throw up your hands because there's just too much misinformation out there. Or you may be firmly on one side or the other and just kind of look at everything through that lens. I'm not comfortable with either of those things. I really think that if you make an effort, you can come to a pretty pretty high probability of knowing certain things by at multiple reports, many as you can find by reputable sources, but also each claim being made in something like this, looking at what the motivations are for whoever's making it.

0:23:54 Thomas: And I think you can evaluate things pretty accurately by doing that. I'll give you an example. Maybe you heard about the hospital there was an explosion, I guess I'll say, at a hospital in Gaza. Well, there's a lot to get into about this. So explosion happens. Early on, the Hamas-run Gazan health ministry accused Israel of attacking the hospital. And they said, something like 800 people were dead. Reports kind of ranged from 500 to 833. And then they eventually settled on 471. And so the New York Times, and we actually know quite a bit about this process for reasons I'll get to in a moment. The New York times in their live updating digital coverage has a headline that says Israeli strike kills hundreds in hospital, comma, Palestinians say?

0:24:46 Thomas: The New York Times folks say that when they tried to do that immediate headline as fast as possible, no one else actually would give them a statement. So they reached out to Israel officials or whatever. They said they were still looking into it. Other officials didn't have a statement for them. The only people who did were the Gazan health ministry, which is Hamas controlled. So, pausing there on the coverage side of it, this was a claim that I followed in real time because I was very interested in the truth here, not so eventually, Israel came out and said it was a rocket actually fired by a Palestinian Islamic Jihad, an armed group in Gaza, allied with Hamas, and it malfunctioned midair and exploded when it hit the ground.

0:25:33 Thomas: And they say, so it wasn't an Israeli strike that hit this hospital and killed a bunch of people. It was Palestinian Islamic Jihad. And am incredibly skeptical of what Israel claims for, I think, pretty good reasons. The Israeli military, I'm very skeptical of what they claim, as I'd be skeptical of virtually any government that was in the middle of justifying massive strikes on people. I'd, I'd be skeptical. I mean, if it was the U.S. I'd be very skeptical. History shows we needed to be very skeptical, more skeptical of U.S. intelligence claims from. So on one side you had some prominent people doubting that story. There was also a Channel 4 News segment that seemed pretty definitively like disprove the official story, and I was at that point I was a little skeptical. I was thinking, like, yeah, I mean, you would lie about this. If you bombed a hospital and killed a bunch people, you would probably lie about it.

0:26:27 Thomas: But I still, you didn't know for sure, because again, you need that more information with these things. I wasn't sure. And eventually more intelligence agencies came out and said they confirmed it was not an Israeli like missile or whatever, including U.S. intelligence, including some other countries. And at that point, in my mind, it's like, well, I still am a little skeptical with U.S. intelligence, especially because, again, we're backing the fuck out of Israel. We're giving them billions of dollars and Biden is seems to be well in their corner. So I'm a bit skeptical, but there's enough different entities kind of confirming it. And was nobody from the Palestinian side willing to like show any of the wreckage to like prove it or, you know, so it was kind of looking like, yeah, OK, this was a lie by Hamas.

0:27:22 Thomas: And it was actually Friendly Fire from their side that did it. Now, more recently, a New York Times digital investigation, which you can look through, says that while it still ultimately, I get the impression that ultimately it's still more likely that it was Israel and not an Israeli strike. They say that the video that everybody, including Israeli officials, are using as evidence actually is a different thing, that what they're seeing is actually possibly like an intercepting rocket, which is really interesting. And they seem to be the only ones, the New York Times video review team. I mean, they make a compelling case, but also who the fuck? Now, I don't have access to all the video. Other papers are reporting that the video actually does confirm whatever. Anyway, point is, it's not super obvious.

0:28:10 Thomas: Intelligence agencies have not shared their proof. They say they have additional proof, but they haven't shared it with us. But taking everything in, as much as I, I'm not predisposed to believe Israel, the Israeli military, I think the evidence shows that it's more likely the rocket fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The combination of all the evidence, uh, the crater is not very big. If it was an Israeli missile, it would have been a bigger explosion. Actually, that there's a lot of stuff. And based on what all the entities are saying, and kind of taking on the whole, all their motivations, I think it makes more sense that this was the friendly fire thing. So here's where I'm bringing all this up. So going back to that New York Times headline, "Israeli Strike Kills Hundreds in Hospital, comma, Palestinians Say," headline has now been completely and roundly blasted by virtually everybody as, like, this irresponsible reporting. And it's not just like people whose opinion you shouldn't care about. This is like Democratic members of Congress, even.

0:29:09 Thomas: Democratic representative Jared Moskowitz attacks, quote, "disgusting display of reporting on Hamas hospital blast." Ted Liu, representative from California, Democrat, said the New York Times didn't botch the Gaza hospital story. They did something worse. They intentionally wrote an attention-grabbing headline that falsely pointed the blame at Israel to generate clicks during breaking news without waiting for confirmation or the actual facts. And, by the way, Ted Lieu didn't stop there. There was also an LA Times headline that said, "Rage spreads over Gaza hospital blast amid dueling narratives from Israel and Hamas." And Ted Lieu quoted that and said, "Below is today's lead headline at the LA Times. The Times simply accepts what terrorist organization Hamas says, even though it's false."

0:29:56 Thomas: This both-sides journalism is factually wrong. A true headline would say, Rage spreads over Gaza hospital blast amid false narrative from Hamas. Now, keep in mind that New York Times headline was before Biden administration came out and backed Israel and said that, you multiple strands of early intelligence confirms that it was not essentially, before. The L.A. Times headline was the next day. So the blast happened on the 17th. The New York Times headline Was like virtually right away. As soon as they, you had that statement and couldn't get a statement from anybody else. They went with that. They said, quote, Palestinian say. And then on the 18th, the Biden administration says they agree with Israel intelligence that it was actually not an Israeli strike.

0:30:43 Thomas: And then that L.A. Times headline is on the 19th. So the next day all of that in mind, the criticism very swift and very harsh. And from members of Congress on both sides of the aisle, keeping in mind that the headlines didn't claim it was Israel. The earliest one from The New York Times said Palestinians say it was Israel. And the L.A. Times one says rage spreads over Gaza hospital amid dueling narratives from Israel and Hamas. And Ted Lieu is apparently of the opinion that that headline is grossly irresponsible, and that is 5.30 a.m. the very next day after the Biden administration says it wasn't the Israelis. And by the way, they didn't provide any proof.

0:31:30 Thomas: They just said it. Just bring this all this up to show where the overall is on this. Now, I don't know what the correct way to report all this is, when and why. I do know that there's no fucking way that the New York Times has, like, some anti-Israel, pro-Hamas bias. I can tell you that right now.

And so, sort of this working the refs that you should never have even thought to post a headline on a digital, and digital coverage that's live updating, which, by the way, they changed the headline pretty quickly after that, because they live update it as they learn more, that it is journalistically irresponsible to even post that, even though you said it was according to Palestinians, and the article made it clear that it was according to the Gaza health ministry.

The LA Times one seems even less objectionable to me. "Rage spreads over Gaza hospital blast amid dueling narratives." Like, the media is being pressured by members of Congress. Immediately show deference to U.S. intelligence claims within hours, to the point where you can't even say they're dueling narratives. You can't even acknowledge that. Even though that's factually true, there are dueling narratives. They're saying you need to immediately say it's a false narrative from Hamas. It's lie. And don't, doesn't that make you a little uncomfortable after what happened with 9/11?

This got so bad that the New York Times had to issue an, don't do like an editor's note, which they haven't, they done this, year, this is the first one, it's a pretty big deal, and they're doing a fucking podcast interview, I listened to the podcast interview with the kind of the guy that's not solely in charge, but, like, the editor that made the note and was largely, I guess, taking kind of responsibility, a whole ass fucking interview on the New York Times war coverage podcast. I was listening to the podcast to get updates on, like, you know, the conflict. It's specifically that one, and they took a whole episode for the editor to explain this one digital headline that was updated very quickly. That says a lot about where we are and the current environment of bloodlust, I think. All the while, though, I will note that I do ultimately think the evidence, points to it not being an Israeli strike.

But there's another component, too, which is, people, in addition to disbelieving the Gaza health ministry claim about who did it, they also were doing a bunch of other stuff, like, and how could there be 500 people who died when it was in a parking lot of the hospital? It wasn't even the hospital, it was the parking lot. How could five?

0:34:00 Thomas: I bet you more like 50 people died. That was in the subtweet of the tweet that Ted Lieu was referencing. So it's not like a nobody. It's like, of part that. It is a blue checkmark, but I don't know what that means anymore. So I don't who this person is. But anyway, they're saying it was more like fifty. Well, that's actually wrong, it was more. And furthermore, that ignores, I think, pretty perniciously, reality of the awful situation of what was actually happening. The blast aside for a moment, another reason that people doubted Israel's story was because Israel had specifically warned that hospital to evacuate, and they, they confirmed this, actually, this wasn't like only according to Hamas or something. Like Like the hospital said, yeah, they specifically warned us, not like just the general warning that they have been giving to basically all of Gaza.

0:34:47 Thomas: They warned us this hospital specifically. So that fact was another thing that initially made it a little bit unclear for me. Like, that seemed like, oh, wow, they did warn them. Why were they warning them if there wasn't, like, they couldn't have predicted that an Islamic Jihad missile would fail and happen to fail exactly there. So that was another bit of evidence that was like, oh, maybe it was, it wasn't Israeli, but it might just be a weird coincidence. But think about that. Let me read you a statement from the WHO, the World Health Organization, from the 13th of October. This is so that would be four days before this, but it's relevant. The WHO joins the wider United Nations in appealing to Israel to immediately rescind orders for the evacuation of over one million people living north of Wadi Gaza.

0:35:33 Thomas: A mass evacuation would be disastrous for patients, health workers, and other civilians left behind or caught in the mass movement. Amnesty International also issued a similar statement. Israel just told 1.1 million people they just have to leave where they live. Imagine that. Amnesty International's senior crisis response advisor said, declaring a whole city or region a military target flies in the face of international humanitarian law, which stipulates that those carrying out attacks must distinguish at all times between civilian or civilian objects and military objectives, and that they must take all possible means to spare civilians and civilian objects. Violating the principle of distinction by targeting civilian or civil objects, or by carrying out indiscriminate attacks that kill or injure civilians, is a war crime.

0:36:25 Thomas: Going back to the WHO statement, quote, "The Palestinian Ministry of Health has informed WHO that it is impossible to evacuate vulnerable hospital patients without endangering their lives. Vulnerable patients include those who are critically injured or dependent on life support. Moving them amid hostilities puts their lives at immediate risk. The two Ministry of Health hospitals in the north of Gaza that continue to be operational have greatly exceeded their combined 760 bed capacity, with severe overcrowding of the thousands of patients with injuries and other conditions receiving care in hospitals. There are hundreds that are severely wounded, and over 100 who require critical care. These are the sickest of the sick. Many thousands more also with wounds or other health needs cannot access any kind of care."

0:37:12 Thomas: Quote, hospitals are completely overwhelmed because of the non-stop bombing that has happened since then that has killed many, injured many. And I see these claims of like, how, why would there even be that many people in the parking lot of a hospital, because they're completely overcrowded and they've been ordered to evacuate. Kind of seems reasonable. Again, I'm, even if this was was just a friendly fire thing. And wasn't an Israeli strike at the very least acknowledge the humanity of the situation that a bunch of people are stuck in the parking lot of a hospital because maybe they're trying to evacuate. Maybe they it's overcrowded that they're a little literally could be administering care out there for all I know. So contrast that with another story that you might've heard pretty early.

0:37:57 Thomas: And again, you know, content note, unpleasant stuff, not going into details, but I have to reference some very unpleasant stuff. Did you hear that 40 babies were beheaded by Hamas in the original attack? Because I did, and I heard it in very credible places, and I kind of honestly just sort of assumed it was true without thinking about. It. And it turns out that one, not true. I'll quote from Al Jazeera, the beheaded baby's tale originated with a report on Israel's I-24 news site by reporter Nicole Zedek from her interview with Israeli reserve soldier David Ben-Zion. Max Blumenthal and Alexander Rubinstein reported on October 11th that Ben-Zion is a notorious radical leader in Israel's West Bank settler movement.

0:38:42 Thomas: Among other things, he called on rampaging armed settlers earlier this year to wipe out the Palestinian village of Harawa, which settlers attacked and burned several times. Now, here's the thing, if this specific headline of 40 babies decapitated is fake, that does not at all mean like nothing fucking horrendous happened. Don't get me wrong, babies were killed, it's it's heartbreaking, it's horrifying, Hamas did really fucking horrible things. I would contend that this is actually still important. It is important to note how quickly an unverified report. And by the way, Israel wouldn't even say this was true. Well, here, when journalists asked a spokesman for the Israeli military about the story, the reply was, quote, we cannot confirm it, but you can assume it happened, end quote, because they were certainly happy to have that particular war propaganda out there, but they, not even they would confirm it.

0:39:37 Thomas: Nevertheless, the president of the United States, Joe Biden said in a speech, quote. I never really thought that I would see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children, end quote. They later had to walk that back, quote, a White House spokesperson later clarified that U.S. officials and the president have not seen pictures or confirmed such reports independently, the Post reported on Wednesday. This hasn't been confirmed. Now, again, awful, awful atrocities have occurred. And may, when this is all said and done, who knows what will be confirmed. And there was a massive sarcastic response once this happened that like, oh, okay, thanks for the clarification. So it's only that babies were some found decapitated, but it wasn't 40 and stuff like that.

0:40:28 Thomas: And I certainly understand that reaction. After all, a dead child is a dead child, but the first point is just the difference in how unconfirmed reports are being treated. And secondly, a dead child is a dead child. There's a reason why this kind of war propaganda exists, even when you're dealing with an enemy that's already, I mean, there's already plenty of awful stuff. You barely need the propaganda, admittedly. But why do you think it needs to be not just dead babies, but this ISIS-like fantasy where they were beheading a bunch of babies in a row? Well, I think that one of the functions of a horrific story like that to cover up for the fact that Israelis have killed now vastly more children than the Hamas terrorists did.

0:41:16 Thomas: I don't know if this is something you've been keeping track of, but I have. As of recording, the latest numbers reported by, once again, the the Gaza-based Ministry of Health, are a death toll of 7,028 Palestinians, including 2,913 children. 2, 913. There are people who will literally try to nitpick that by being like, well, that's just people under 18. They might not be like babies. Here's something astonishing. Astonishing. One of the things I try to do is, check all the fact checkers and I find them to be a good resource. And one of the claims made by like a super pro Palestinian source was that half of all Palestinians are children.

0:42:02 Thomas: And the fact checked to my astonishment was this is pretty much true. That's what happens when living in these circumstances. I mean, in war-torn regions, the average age kind of plummets. It just makes sense. And something like in the neighborhood of 44% of Palestinians are under the age of 18, which to me makes that kind of 7,000 to 3,000-ish ratio pretty plausible. Now we have Joe Biden. Publicly stating that, ah, well, we can't trust the numbers from Gaza Ministry of Health. I think that's probably technically speaking true. Like we can'T just take it as gospel. Of course, it is an agency in the Hamas government. Controlled Sure. But what's the function of Joe Biden saying that in this moment?

0:42:49 Thomas: Because do you really think that this number is going to be significantly wrong? Have you seen the destruction? They are dropping bombs. They bragged on the 13th. They bragged. The Israeli Air Force bragged about dropping 6,000 bombs in six days. Let me read you this. The Washington Post, citing Mark Galasco, a military advisor at the Dutch organization Pax for Peace, reported that Israel is, quote, dropping in less than a week what the the U.S. was dropping in Afghanistan in a year, in a much smaller, much more densely populated area where mistakes are going to be magnified. Garlasco, who's also a former U.N. war crimes investigator in Libya, told the Daily, citing records from the U.S.

0:43:36 Thomas: Air Force Central Command, that the highest number of bombs dropped in a year for the war in Afghanistan was just over 7,423. According to the UN, during the entire war in Libya, NATO reported dropping more than 7,600 bombs and missiles from aircraft, the Daily reported. So, yes, roughly the number of bombs that we dropped on Afghanistan in a year in that war, six days in an area that is a fraction of the size. What does Joe Biden want us to believe that the, the death numbers will be revised down to like three, four people it's honestly, it's pretty sickening. And here's the other thing. It's pretty easy to write off this health ministry as bad as Hamas control.

0:44:24 Thomas: It's going to be just a propaganda. That's not really how it works, because this health ministry actually controls the, you know, they control kind of like the education, the health services, and they're somewhat independent. I'm not trying to say that they're, you know, obviously completely without like bias or something. And what they don't do that people, I guess, don't like is they never separate like military and civilian, they just report it as dead, whereas other people are, you know, like to say, like, well, this this amount was military people or was terrorists or whatever, and this amount was civilians. But let me read you this, this is from the AP, AP news. Throughout four wars and numerous bloody skirmishes between Israel and Hamas, UN agencies have cited the health ministry's death tolls in regular reports. The International Committee of the Red Cross and Palestinian Red Crescent also use the numbers.

0:45:14 Thomas: In the aftermath of war, the UN humanitarian office has published final death tolls based on its own research into medical records. In all cases, the U.N.'s counts have largely been consistent with the Gaza health ministry's with small discrepancies. 2008 war, ministry reported 1,440 Palestinians killed, UN reported 1,385. 2014 war, ministry reported 2,310 Palestinians killed. The UN reported 2,251. 2021 war, the ministry reported 260 Palestinians killed the UN reported 256. So how far off do you think those numbers will be? 7,000 dead, 3,000 children dead. How far off do you think that will be? By some accounts, we might be just beginning. There's a ground invasion still planned.

0:46:01 Thomas: It's been pushed off and I don't know, maybe, maybe there's enough pressure to stop it, but I'm really not sure about that. Even if it's not stopped, I don't see why the bombing would necessarily slow down. The Hamas attack killed 1,400, mostly civilians. I actually can't find how many children, and I've actually looked quite a lot, but it's just the nature of the attack is quite different. So there aren't as many children. I mean, there are, don't get me wrong. There is horrible fucking stuff that I wish I've never read that these Hamas terrorists did to people. It's horrible. Please do not for one second believe that I have anything other than the utmost sadness the horrific killing by Hamas terrorists.

0:46:47 Thomas: It's truly awful. 1,400 people they killed. There are still a couple hundred hostages. I want those people brought to justice. I do not at all think anything other than those terrorists to be brought to justice 100 million percent. I don't believe that any innocent civilians deserve that ever at all. But I'm looking at these numbers and in response to 1400 killed, some number of them children, but the ratio is going to be way different. But it's weird that I can't find it, But let's assume 300, maybe. I have no idea. It could be less based on the nature of the attacks. Who knows? Could more. Point is somewhere in that neighborhood might be children. So 1,400 total. Let's say 300 children. I'll adjust that if there's better numbers, but I honestly can't find them.

0:47:35 Thomas: And in response, 7,000 Palestinians killed, 3,000 children. Part of me wonders if people just think, yeah, but they weren't killed in like a terrorist-y way. They weren't beheaded. I'll grant that there are more or less traumatic ways to lose a loved one, for sure. Absolutely. Again, some of these Hamas killings, I mean, it's truly just, it turns your stomach. I can't even believe it. How many Palestinian children then do you get to kill because of that? How many? Tell me the number of Palestinian children that Israel's can just, they get a free pass to kill. How many? I mentioned earlier, the counter to the sort of fact check on the 40 beheaded babies was about, okay, they weren't beheaded, but like they were killed.

0:48:21 Thomas: Some of them might've been beheaded. A dead child is a dead child. Yeah, no, I agree. A dead child is a dead child, but apparently 3000 dead children is not enough yet. So is a dead child, a dead child? I don't know. And those numbers actually don't even tell a complete story. Now, in fairness, neither does the 1,400 number because there are also 5,000 wounded in those attacks. That's a lot. Those wounds are likely not a bruised elbow. Wounds. That's a lot of people. Palestinians going on 19,000 Wounded. 1,700 Missing, by the way. There are more Palestinians missing that could well be dead, for all we know, than the entirety of Israelis killed in the initial attack. But when I learned something like they dropped 6,000 bombs in six days, and mind you, it's been 20 days, I think they stopped counting because I haven't seen any updated numbers.

0:49:16 Thomas: They started counting in tons from what I can see. And that, honestly, I don't understand the conversion on that. I don't know. So I don't know what that means, but it's lot. So 6,000 bombs in six days. I mean, how severe do you think those injuries are? 19,000 people wounded. Those could be very, very serious. How much of this are they allowed to do with the United States is full backing? Apparently how much, what's the limit? Tell me the limit. When is, when is it justice? Tell me when we've done. I agree. We need justice. There should be justice. This is not lip service. There absolutely should be justice for the horrific Hamas terrorist killings. Horrific. Should be justice. Tell me the number. What is it? What would justice be? 1.4 million Palestinians are now displaced.

0:50:04 Thomas: They don't have a home currently. 1.4 million because of this. And it's just going to get worse. Here's an article from Johns Hopkins, just from a health perspective. Perspective. This is an interview with humanitarian health expert Paul Spiegel. The question is, what are some of the greatest health concerns for civilians in Gaza related to the current crisis? This doctor says, from a public health and humanitarian perspective, there are already massive red flags and major alerts. As we discuss the situation right now, well before any potential ground invasion by Israel, the complete blockade of Gaza does not allow for the importation of basic life-saving services like water, electricity, food, and medical supplies into a densely populated and circumscribed area. Combined with bombing, a massive number of civilians being displaced, and attacks on health care facilities, this is a toxic brew for epidemics, exacerbations of existing illnesses, and increased morbidity and mortality.

0:51:02 Thomas: The increases in trauma and injury due to bombings have already overwhelmed a challenged health system that is under attack. Epidemics, particularly of waterborne diseases like cholera, are of great concern. With respect to maternal and neonatal health services, which have the goal of ensuring safe deliveries, the World Health Organization estimates there are 50,000 pregnant women in Gaza struggling to receive basic health services. Contributing factors include overwhelmed hospitals, movement restrictions, and lack of hospital space. Many civilians, particularly the elderly who suffer from chronic, non-communicable diseases, will not be able to continue with their care. Deaths will increase due to lack of insulin and life-saving cardiac machines, the inability to continue with renal dialysis, and so many other issues related to lack of continuity of treatment.

0:51:48 Thomas: On top of all this are concerns about COVID, influenza, RSV, and other infectious diseases. New York Times reports thirst and hunger grow in besieged Gaza amid Israeli bombardment. Residents wait in line for hours for bread and water, with fights sometimes breaking out. The United Nations has called the situation a humanitarian catastrophe. The taps have run dry, trucks are no longer refilling household water tanks, and the desalination plants have largely ground to a halt for lack of electricity and fuel. Israel imposed a siege on Gaza on October 9th, cutting off food, water, electricity, and fuel in response to the attack on Israel two days earlier by Hamas, the armed Palestinian group that rules the Strip. Survival in Gaza now means not only escaping death from thousands of Israeli airstrikes that have rained down over the past two weeks, but also finding enough to eat and drink.

0:52:38 Thomas: All right, look, I could go on for hours just talking about what I think is effectively a genocide, but I can leave it there for now. Who knows where we are in this? Are we 10% of the way done? Are we 0% of the way done, are we 100%? Of, like, it's not 100, I guess, I know that, but this ground invasion may be starting soon. Actually, today, it's Friday, as I'm recording it, may have started. There's report just recently that internet service is down, cell and internet service are down in Gaza, and there are reports that troops are inside the Gaza Strip. Uh, it's hard to know, again, preliminary, preliminary, uh, and with sell an internet service down. I don't know. Who knows? But those are the reports. And this is the New York Times.

0:53:24 Thomas: This is not just me looking at some random Twitter account or something. So that's my question, I suppose, to leave you with for this part. And then there's more. So my question is, what is justice? Much of a war on terror do they get to do? Since they had had 15 9/11s, do they give you 15 wars on terror, or is that a terrible fucking inhumane way of looking at things? Think this is awful. I think it's absolutely awful. I'm disgusted, honestly, at how Biden is handling this. I'm disgusted that we've been providing so many weapons of war to so many countries for so long, but Israel, perhaps, first and foremost. Hard to even know what to hope for, what's the best outcome from right now. I don't even know what that is. People are hoping for a ceasefire.

0:54:11 Thomas: Yeah, imagine, I mean, I really feel like if we utilized our pressure, we could make things happen. But I don't know if WE exists. I don't know how much I blame Biden. I believe him a little bit, but I think that there is so much bipartisanship on this issue and the polling backs that up. This is a highly popular issue, unfortunately. So much so, I don't know how this recording is going to be received.

We'll see if I have a podcast to come home to after this. I hope I'm exaggerating. I don't know, but it's, you know, I'm seeing polling in the 70s, 80s percent support for Israel in both parties, higher in Republican by like 10 points, but like, that's a lot. And so I don't even know, realistically, this is not an excuse for Biden, but I don't know that if I were Biden right now, I don't know what options I would have because of the way our country is divided and because of the right looking to just politicize any issue and hold it against Biden and, use it to score as many points as possible. So in the next part, if you are up for it, I'm going to tell you about some of the things I've found. If your theory is, if anyone's theory is and I know it's a lot of people's that nothing could possibly explain this kind of evil out of Hamas.

No circumstances could possibly explain this. It's just pure evil kind of thing. I would have to disagree. And I think there are a lot of things that perhaps people don't know about. A lot of reasons why this situation is what it is. And I want to go into a little bit of the history. But again, I'm not an expert.

0:55:46 Thomas: This is not meant for me to be teaching anyone anything other than And if you're just the average person like I am, there's a lot that you likely haven't been told. And so at least knowing these things is good perhaps would give you some amount of perspective, even if you ultimately, I don't know, don't agree with me or something, it might give you perspective that you didn't have on this conflict All right. Thank you so much for listening. Truly, I mean it. I will do you the courtesy of assuming no matter what side you're on, no matter if you're as pro-Israel as it comes, that you also mourn for loss of civilian life, just like I do on either side. I'll do you that respect. Please do me the same respect. And what I want more than anything else is to reduce suffering as much as we can in this world.

0:56:36 Thomas: And requires accurate, when looking at these things, and not falling victim, not falling prey to manipulation on incomplete data. That's what I'll leave you with. I hope you'll listen to part two. Thank you so much. See you next time.