DOD83: Self-Defense II

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's not afraid to be afraid of being wrong. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Eli: Speak for yourself, Tom. I'm never wrong. Especially not on this show.

0:00:42 Tom: I wrong with such alarming rapidity and frequency. I I'm wrong sometimes before I said the thing that I'm going to say. I'll think it in my head and it'll be wrong before ford even exits mouth so

0:00:54 Thomas: I've definitely had had a few of those.

0:00:55 Eli: It's a product feature here at Dyrrl Teds. How we keep, you know, we consider our show like a skepticism test, right? It's like, oh, now do you actually research the thing we say? It's, like, a fun... I don't want to spoil it, but we will be releasing scores for who actually investigated our claims.

0:01:11 Thomas: Well, Yeah, we've been tracking every single comment and what, yeah.

0:01:12 Eli: I started this back on Cog Dis in 2014,

0:01:15 Tom: Was like should rename this show like know with like a subheading like Dear Old Dads do you believe this shit

0:01:22 Eli: Or is it maybe that Dear Old Dads Or Is it, can we do like a Simpsons Treehouse of Horror thing where a fist bursts through the end of the podcast at the end and be more like a mystery now?

0:01:24 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:01:34 Thomas: Can I just say, um, true dad fashion, I cranked my fucking neck and now my very existence is pain. Like the, I can't even, I'm, there's no way you guys noticed that I'm a little grouchy. I'm sure you would never have noticed, but, uh, that's because my entire being is all pain right now. 100%. It's amazing. I ability for the human body to go from like, yeah, no, I'm I'm well, okay. So let's face it. I'm pretty much always in pain, but like, like I'm okay. I'm fine to, oh, I need the hospital just because of a muscle thing or something. It's just, it's ridiculous. So know, I'm going to do this and then I'm gonna go check in to the, to the ICU just for neck pain.

0:01:42 Eli: It sucks. Just

0:01:48 Tom: Oh, yeah,

0:02:08 Eli: Just Scream for an hour an Hour of not screaming an Hour of Screaming

0:02:11 Thomas: No, put me in the ICU. You just just need to ice it, man. I don't, do you have ice in the MCU? Do it there.

0:02:13 Eli: Mm.

0:02:19 Tom: I once made the mistake at the age of over 40 of watching a movie with my right arm propped up above my head.

0:02:25 Eli: Terrible idea, you terrible

0:02:26 Thomas: We need to issue content notes before stuff like that.

0:02:28 Eli: Yep.

0:02:30 Tom: Think much of it. I was just watching TV with my arm above my hand. I moved my arm and I was like, God damn, my shoulder hurts. I ended up having to do six weeks of physical therapy and had two tears on my shoulder.

0:02:39 Thomas: Jesus. Oh my God.

0:02:41 Eli: Yeah.

0:02:42 Tom: And I was like, what happened? I watched a TV show at the wrong angle. Are you fucking kidding me?

0:02:42 Eli: Absolutely. Mm. -hmm. Yes.

0:02:43 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Oh, I can't do stuff now. If I watch something, if I set up something and it's three degrees to the left or right, I'm like, I literally can't do it because I'll, five minutes, my neck is ruined for a day. It's ridiculous. We were meant to get eaten by something by now. Why? That's...

0:03:00 Tom: It's Yeah, Netflix or chill.

0:03:05 Eli: Absolutely, your- your body is breaking down so that a lion can catch and eat you, and nature is just like, it's been like 30 more years than it's supposed to, I don't know, make his dick stop working. If you make his dick stop working, he'll understand, yeah, and

0:03:15 Thomas: Yeah, especially me. I've reproduced three times. Nature's like, dude, what are you still doing here?

0:03:21 Eli: They were- they desperately tried to stop you after the first one, they really did, but they couldn't.

0:03:25 Thomas: I noticed there was a lion like stalking me the whole time, like, like it follows or whatever.

0:03:28 Eli: Just in your sack. Yeah. Absolutely. But you know the only thing worse than the inevitable breakdown and destruction of our bodies and physical health? That's right, the auto ads. Auto ads, because we don't get paid to tell you to fuck yourself every six minutes on this podcast, but we can do the equivalent by playing whatever bizarre ads your iPhone thinks are targeted at you at any given moment. But, you can prevent those auto ads, yes. You can have the The vaccine for those auto ads, if you will, the two ibuprofen and a hot pack of auto ads is signing up to be a patron over at patreon.com/dearolddads. Not only do you get an extended commercial-free version of every single episode, but you also get bonus episodes almost every single month. And this month we did a little more Q&A. We got into some real fun on this month's Q&A. I think we almost wrapped up the Q&A from May. So yeah, yeah. Yeah, check that out over at patreon.com/dearolddads.

0:03:30 Thomas: Yeah. Wow. We'll have to tell some of the descendants of the listeners who asked those questions.

0:04:32 Eli: Yeah, no, write to your kids and let them know.

0:04:34 Thomas: Someone will fill out like an ancestry.com and they'll be like, hey, did you Know that your great grip once asked a question that was just recently answered? So, I

0:04:37 Eli: Yeah, your question. Your uncle is the Golden State Killer and your grandpa asked a question on Dear Old Dads.

0:04:50 Thomas: Wanted to do just a maybe a little bit of a follow-up because on the episode on self-defense I had so many thoughts and feelings but I kind of wasn't like, don't know, I wasn't mentally prepared since we were talking about something, you know, kind of like violence against women. By the way, content, no, we're kind of mentioning violence against woman, that kind of thing.

Self -defence I, a lot of thoughts, but I wanted, like, you check with Lydia because I'm, you, I mean, I'm not a woman and I wasn't sure, like, I kind of felt like, well, this is how I feel, but I didn't really, you much about it. I just wanted to, I did discuss with Lydia and it's one of those things where it's, love it's it. I think, Tom, you did a similar thing where just so on the same page that like I discussed with Lydia.

She's like, yeah, no, this isn't 100 percent where we are. And kind of nice. It's I what I love about this show. Like it's always like, you hey, did you did you? Yeah, I listened. And, you know, here's how I feel. And I know you guys do that, too. It's always fun.

0:05:36 Eli: I actually check with three women because I'm an ally. I don't know. Just as we're having this conversation, I just want everyone to keep in mind that like my opinions represents three women, so women coming from this Angle On this Week's Podcast No One Is fine, I Get It If You Want to check in with your chattel about what it is your collective opinion is. I happen to talk to Elizabeth Warren, AOC, and the ghost of Esther, yeah, from the Bible, so that's where my takes will be coming from today, just a warning.

0:05:47 Tom: Just Checking With One Is slavery Actually Just Checking With One In Slavery

0:06:12 Thomas: But before I do that. I just want to correct something. And so. And I do want to say, Tom, this is this is 100 percent not on you, Tom. You accurately relayed what was reported in 2018. and Uh, actually almost nobody bothered debunking it, but for interesting reasons, in um, 2018, it was reported. There was a Thompson Reuters study that said, oh, the, uh, U.S. is the 10th most dangerous country. And like heard my reaction in real time, which is like, that can't be right. And you know, it's, it'S not right. And it's not on you, Tom, this was a reporting failure and it's why I do SIO, but this survey was so bad that I don't need to interview an expert about it. Like I can just tell you what the methodology was and it's actually kind of funny. After I looked at it, I just wanted to track down that source. I looked out and I was like, this does not seem right. And then I looked to see if anybody had debunked it. All that came up was the usual like Washington Times, right wing, you know, like

0:06:17 Eli: No, Yeah,

0:07:07 Tom: Right,

0:07:07 Thomas: Those papers. And I was like, fuck, that's not good, but it's Because it was literally in the middle of Me Too, so like it was right when Me Too was happening, and I think no-ish sources wanted to be like, yeah, let's just, we'll just leave that one aside, they're like, We'll just kind of not touch That, so It's not the moment. Here's what this was, um, if you were wondering if the claim that the U.S. is the 10th most dangerous country involved a single metric or bit of data of any kind, the answer is know. There's not a single metric used at all. Not murder

0:07:10 Eli: Sure,

0:07:22 Tom: This Is

0:07:38 Eli: They Actually,

0:07:38 Thomas: Rate.

0:07:38 Eli: Just asked Tom.

0:07:39 Thomas: Yeah, it's close. It's close to that. Here's what it was. It not only is it a poll of, hey, we asked respondents to name the most dangerous countries. Way, from just the United Nations member states. So that's part of it too. Because there are like 70 countries where literally there's

0:07:39 Eli: I Think

0:07:57 Tom: Saying that that's not a Good way to find out accurate

0:08:00 Eli: It sounds awesome, I'm sorry, Thomas, that sounds like a great way to know true things. No,

0:08:04 Thomas: Something. Something like 60 or 70 countries where domestic abuse is literally not a crime. So I was like, there's no fucking way the U.S. But it could be that they're not United Nations member states. But what was funny, and this is just take two seconds, it asked people during Me Too, like when Me Too literally was in the headlines, just fucking Weinstein thing just broke, all that.

And they asked people to just not rank like all the nations, not give me your top 50, just like for a couple categories, just name from memory the, just five countries that you think are bad, and the U.S. didn't get any mentions on health care discrimination, all, you know, although arguably again it's not like I'm saying these things are good in the U.S., but in the whole world, like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, the, in the midst of a civil war, by the way, Syria, dangerous for women, Iran, like Sudan, there's a lot of countries worse is all. And, uh, there, there are like six categories, but when it came to like sexual harassment, because it was the middle of me too, some people mentioned the U S like, cause it's in the headlines for sexual violence, sexual harassment.

And so they're like, yeah, no U S is definitely on that list. And because the methodology is so terrible where where it's just like, okay, name five countries. And then what we did is we took the score, we added it up of the number of mentions. So even though the U.S. is in no other categories, but apparently we're tied Syria for sexual violence during a civil war. It was ranked as because of the scoring is just number of times it was mentioned by people who said, hey, when like 10 countries that you think is a problem, or it's like five or 10 or something.

And that because of whatever their fucking scoring system was because of that one thing and then it also came up uh we were sixth on non -sexual violence but again this is not a metric this is based on we asked some number of experts we don't even know who they are what they thought would be like a dangerous country or whatever so that's that's how that happened and I thought that was

0:09:00 Eli: I disagree Disagree Right, Yeah.

0:10:05 Thomas: Funny, and I also think it's funny that because it was in 2018, the middle of Me Too, I think people, people just didn't fucking touch it. They're just like, nah, I'm not going to.

0:10:13 Eli: So to clarify, Thomas, you're saying that, like, if women feel unsafe in the United States, they're big babies And should Should get Over it?

0:10:18 Thomas: Yes. That is, I definitely want to make that correction.

0:10:21 Tom: That is The Takeaway

0:10:21 Eli: And that's your and Lydia's opinion. Like you and Lydia got together and you were like, as a family, we want to come out as a united front. And then you did that gesture where you put your knuckles to your eyes, like the wah -wah gesture. Okay, cool.

0:10:22 Tom: That's The takeaway

0:10:23 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, but none that is to say the US is doing great. We're definitely the, worst among, you know, like what they call the fucking West or what, I don't know. Is there a better term for that shit that doesn't feel like I'm, you marching with a tiki torch.

0:10:48 Eli: A racist in a YouTube comments section? Yeah.

0:10:50 Thomas: Yeah. The, the enlightenment country or some bullshit, you know? But like we're of the, whatever they say those countries are.

0:10:57 Tom: The non-shithole countries, I think that's what you mean to say, that's that's what you, yeah.

0:11:00 Thomas: And then, so, so then I, I was, so I conferred with my, my, uh, my help meet as Elias.

0:11:00 Tom: Yeah.

0:11:06 Eli: Yeah, you're handmaiden, sure.

0:11:08 Thomas: No. So like my feeling during that, episode that was like, I I want none of this. And but I'm, I'm not a woman. So I, I didn't want to speak for any women. I want to make very clear. Clear. I nor Lydia, who I've conferred with on this, we're not telling anyone what to do whatsoever, but I did want to just relate what our mentality is here. That's fucking not advice for anyone. This is just where we're coming from on this. And there may be people who feel similarly.

0:11:30 Eli: Drink Drink a bottle of Tylenol.

0:11:32 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, that's the best defense rather than a knife, carry a bottle of Tylenol, offer your attacker.

0:11:36 Eli: And drink it when you start to be attacked. Freak someone out.

0:11:37 Thomas: Yeah. We both have the feeling of like that's not something that we're doing in life. And like, it's different. I say we, um, obviously the point Tom made about the differences in, in what is on our minds, of course, like as a man, I'm not worried about the same things that you'd be worried about, but I, my one worry, gentlemen. And I wanted to run this by you.

Of me worries that society, when it comes to this topic, might have a bit of of the puritanical feeling, puritanic kind of need, that if a woman is attacked sexually, if she doesn't fight, then she's somehow complicit. And I worry that that's part of what our society still has in their mind when they're talking about stuff like this. Like I worry that maybe we're putting a lot of the responsibility on women to quote unquote quote, fight back in these situations.

And I'll just say right here and now, like Lydia's feeling after when we talk about it is like, she's not fighting, but that's not a thing that she's doing. Like, on her to learn hand-to-hand combat such that she could fight off a sexual attack if it ever happened in in that Stranger Danger way.

0:12:51 Thomas: And majority of any threat to women, it's it's overwhelmingly someone you know, someone you know, a family member, unfortunately, you know, all that shit. But like that aside, talking because we were talking about like carrying a knife or carrying whatever, I just, so not at all our approach, and I Do want to just put that component out there, that I, I just don't know that that's a healthy feeling, because we don't apply that to anything else, you Know, we don't put that burden on anyone else other than women, in this situation, you need to fight off your attack sexually, otherwise you're somehow complicit in it.

0:13:07 Eli: Okay.

0:13:16 Eli: What? So there's... there's two points being made there. The first is the very real thing you mentioned, which is that there's this weird Victorian prudery of like, you must resist a man's advances or else you were, you know, you didn't fight hard enough, which Is 100% true. Don't want to make an assumption about you and Lydia's collective opinion. But because you said it so directly, what do you plan to do if you are sexually attacked?

0:13:33 Thomas: Right. Like Like a stranger danger scenario.

0:13:51 Eli: Attacked.

0:13:51 Thomas: Like that. Kind of thing.

0:13:52 Eli: Yeah, like So The scenario that You presented very specifically.

0:13:52 Thomas: Sure.

0:13:54 Tom: Well, I interject and say, like I Think it's a little bit of a specificity problem, too, that I want to pause. That and doesn't have to be a sexual attack. Women are attacked more. Right. They're just like not just sexually. They're attacked more, they're robbed more often. They are hit more often, they are attacked. It's not always a sexual. So I Think like focusing or honing in on it as just like need for self-defense relates specifically to the problem of rape. Does relate to, but the Venn diagram is bigger than that. Part of it too, is that like we recognize that like women are victimized in more ways and more physical ways than a sexual attack. So I I almost feel like that's like like it's a tangent to to the issue that is important, but isn't representative of the whole thing. So I just want to get that out there, too.

0:13:55 Eli: Yeah.

0:13:57 Thomas: Yeah. Sure. Okay.

0:14:45 Eli: I Want to address this very specific claim. Right, what what is being said is like, if our opinion, vu opinion, is that if I am attacked I'm not fighting back, so that strikes me sort of like, and we've all heard that term, like, don't tell your daughters not to get get raped, tell your sons not to rape people, right?

0:15:01 Thomas: Of course, and we should all sign on right now, we are obviously first and foremost teaching our Sons, I Have Him signed Up with a how not to rape, I found the top experts, and the, across the world, he's already already got lessons in how not to sexually assault. That's, I'm being flippant, but no, for real. Like I do fully take that on board, but

0:15:06 Eli: Right. Right. Exactly. You Want to Put them right In the early intervention Has a How not To rate Class, yeah.

0:15:06 Tom: Yeah, of course. Yeah.

0:15:22 Eli: No, Look, the problem with that quote, right, the problem would that quote is that you should do both. You Should teach Your sons To not to raping, you should also help your daughters in, or female identifying Children

0:15:28 Tom: Right.

0:15:26 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Live Live in the shit world that we live in.

0:15:32 Eli: Right. Live in the shit world That I Live in. So I, again, without without making an assumption about what your opinion is, when you say our opinion is that, like, not fighting back if I get attacked, what is your family ideas about what to do when you are attacked?

0:15:35 Tom: Yeah well.

0:15:48 Thomas: Do agree with the specificity problem. So we should try to be sort of specific. Like for one, I, and like I said at the time, and Lydia also obviously agrees, the situational awareness part, the, all that stuff, great advice, knowing who to get help from. That's all good stuff. Don't I know how to teach Phoebe that or how she'll learn it best. Maybe that's something I ought to like kind of research, you know, or maybe Lydia will, will have the answers there.

That's so all taking that all on board. I think that's the best way to avoid avoid that stuff or to try to, you your best to counter that. But, but yeah, in the same way, and this same way that if it were me, because I'm not going to be attacked in the same way, if I'm attacked, like I'm being robbed, I'm not fighting back. I'm not what, why would I try to stop that?

If somebody has a weapon or if somebody, some like gets the jump on me or something, I not going to carry a weapon such that I might might counter hand-to-hand attack a person robbing me. I'm just going to let them rob me and then pursue whatever justice I could possibly pursue after that.

And just know Lydia never in a billion years would carry any sort of weapon, A, because I just don't even think she would use it, she just is not that person, and B, I genuinely think there is more of a chance, and I haven't done any research on this, like specific statistics, but just speaking about interpersonally, like Lydia's feeling, it feels like there's way more of a chance of turning a non-lethal attack against her into a lethal attack by having a weapon in the picture, her overpowered, the weapon getting taken and used against her, like, that like when you look at the percentages of what you might be avoiding, like you're already cutting so small, you know, like you're cutting, it

0:17:24 Tom: And I know you made this point, but I do I do feel strongly that I want to like add one to it, or maybe two, but probably just one, is that, um, most important thing that is taught in modern self-defense classes, which is like you say, like, how would I get this to Phoebe or whatever, like the most important and the biggest thing that people spend time on in modern self-defence classes is exactly what you've already identified as deeply important, which is situational, where it's all the not fighting stuff, it talked about that, that in the last episode, that in modern self-defense class that is taught specifically for women, the bulk of the time that is spent is on situational awareness, evasion, and avoidance of scenarios that make you an easier target To

0:18:05 Thomas: Yeah. We're all agreed on those.

0:18:07 Eli: Right.

0:18:08 Tom: But that also speaks to the issue of how do we get to the solution? The solution is you sign your person up to a a self-defense class because that's where they teach that at an expert level, right? And if you teach it at an export level, you say, okay, the likelihood that I'm going to use this little piece of the class is low, but the likelihood that I am going to use this other piece of class is literally 100%. Like Lydia already on this podcast, she already had an issue at a Target where she was being followed around by a creep, right, a situation that situational awareness and knowing how to respond helped her to defuse a stranger based situation. Like, like being even remotely dismissive of the incredible frequency of that because it doesn't lead to attack, I think very specifically ignores all of the work that women are already doing.

0:18:08 Thomas: Oh

0:19:04 Tom: Constantly to not be attacked. They're already doing this enormous volume of work that is self-defense. Going Lydia to the Target employee and saying, "I don't feel safe. Please walk me to my car," while she was on the phone with you. That is self defense. That's part of what is being taught to people. And that is part of why we seek out experts to help us like understand that, like, Aislinn is 13, but she was, she's already been sexually harassed riding her bike two years ago.

I was talking to Haley about this, the first time that a car ever stopped her and try to get by a group of adults and try to get her to get in the car with her, she was 12. Now, she wasn't attacked by those strangers because she had the self-defense related situational awareness to turn that situation into an escape and avoidance moment, right?

Like, when we think about self -defence for women, if we focus on this idea of just the violence piece, we ignore the most important element of it, which is like everybody that you've ever met has already already used self-defense to save their life, or save themselves from attack, or save themselves in some way from an encounter with a stranger. And then we turn it around and say, well, most of the violent attacks aren't done by strangers. It's like, yeah, because they've already done all the work. Have already done all the work. Everyone I know, Lydia included, has already done all the work to not have a stranger attack them. So I feel like

0:20:29 Tom: That's like so critical.

0:20:29 Eli: That's of a side point because I think we all agree on the situational awareness stuff and learning it and teaching it are important. Thomas, stop me if I'm wrong about that.

0:20:41 Thomas: No, absolutely. And, and notably, as you said, Lydia had that interaction. She did that thing. She's never had, to my knowledge, a self-defense class. I think this point, I would agree with Eli. I think it's a bit of a distraction. We all agree on that. And I don't think logically speaking, that advice has to come from somebody. He also can train on anything fighting. It's just a different, sure, you, you can call it self -defence, but like, I, if we were just talking about that, I don't think we would be really disagreeing on anything. Thing, I, I think it would have been a much shorter conversation. You

0:21:10 Eli: Yeah, to put a pin in sort of the where to learn situational awareness conversation, because I think there's maybe a discussion to be had there about like, is that something we can just communicate to our kids or do we need formalized training in it? How is formalized training like helpful or harmful to the mindset? But where I want to be very clear about what you're saying, Thomas, which is where I think we do disagree. I'm going to use a silly metaphor because I got to be honest, I am just not going to have a good time if we're like saying the word rape a bunch of times.

0:21:38 Thomas: No.

0:21:39 Eli: So is your opinion, and I'm gonna take a leaf from my other shows, your opinion is, And by that, I mean you and Lydia's opinion, that if someone, friend, family member or stranger corners you and says, I'm going to show you the TV show Supernatural. You just let them show you The TV Show Supernatural because they're such a Supernatural fan that they may become violent if you don't.

0:22:02 Thomas: If somebody is using violence on you already to show you the TV show Supernatural or Big Bang Theory or whatever awful, atrocious assault on your person it might be, um, if there are, if they're using violence on you, it's, Lydia is not going to, she's not a violent person, she's not a fight person. It's not, it's, there are the times that we're talking about where someone is going to be violently sexually assaulting or attempting to violently sexual assault you, like Lydia. Again, we're taking about these stranger danger scenarios that are already vastly small things. There is such a thing as really horrible things can happen to you. And this feeling that we'll know what you also have to do is make sure you try to engage the person who's stronger and bigger than you in violence and beat them at it somehow to get out of the attack, that's just not a thing Lydia's gonna do and It's, I'm not telling anyone else what to do, like, we're not telling whatever.

0:23:00 Thomas: I just want to put that out there because I, I, other people may have felt similarly, but I don't know I

0:22:57 Eli: Okay. I separate the two points, because one of them is really good and really important, and the other is a point where I think we do disagree. So the first is this idea of must, right? Which I think does get communicated in a lot of the conversation about showing people Supernatural, which is how hard did you fight back? How much did you resist seeing Supernatural? Did you watch a couple of episodes and then say it's a bad show that follows the same formula every time and then not one?

Well, then it's your fault. You were already watching Supernatural, right? All that kind of stuff. I think that, that there's a ton of toxicity around that. I think that's what you were saying just now, and I completely agree with it. And I think it's so important when we tell people how to not watch the show Supernatural that we never make it about their fault, them.

I think where Tom and I are, and Tom, interrupt me and tell me I'm wrong if I'm wrong about this, is that we are of the belief that it is not, if someone is using violence to try to get you to watch Supernatural, it is a good thing to prepare someone to use violence of their own if they want to, and is not endangering them, may, in fact, save their lives.

0:24:19 Thomas: Don't know about the last part, that's a factual claim and I I don't Know.

0:24:22 Eli: That's a factual claim. Right. Right.

0:24:22 Tom: Yeah, and well, guess here's I would add one to that. Impossible for anyone to know what they're going to want to do in a situation that extreme unless they're in that situation of extremity. But I do know that reducing your options to zero doesn't give you the opportunity to make that choice at the point of extremists. And that's not something that for me and my family that I would be willing to allow. I that was a shirking of my responsibility with my kids to say, look, because in an imagining of this scenario, you cannot imagine yourself engaging in violence. I'm going to make sure that you then don't have the tools to make a last minute audible, right?

0:24:33 Thomas: Yeah.

0:25:07 Eli: I'm not going to bother. Right.

0:25:08 Tom: I think that we, I think it is literally impossible to put yourself accurately in a scenario where you feel like, fuck, my life is in danger. Because like, you don't know when you're being attacked, you have no idea if they're going to stop at any given point. If, oh, if maybe if I give in and do this thing, they'll stop and I won't get, you beaten to death or whatever, or kidnapped or like whatever the horrible situation is. I think like not giving people the training And the option is like sending them out into the world and saying like, well, you made your bed theoretically lie in it. And like, I just I just feel like that's wrong.

0:25:20 Thomas: Yeah, you don't know. That's exactly right. Yeah.

0:25:22 Eli: Right, right.

0:25:44 Thomas: I do actually think unfortunately this is a factual question and of want to research it because you can't just count the hits and not count the misses. It's a factual question and I'm not expressing an opinion about these facts. I have my feelings about them, but it is a factional question. What portion of this already tiny tiny percentage we're talking about. So there, I would like to also acknowledge when it comes to the violence and fighting back, do you guys not see it as a legitimate life choice to be like, I'm just not going to fucking bother, prepare for something that horrible. Like,

0:26:13 Tom: I don't.

0:26:14 Eli: I to be very clear. I would never tell anybody what they should do in that scenario. Yeah.

0:26:19 Tom: I would I would go further. I would say that anybody who engaged me in a conversation about this or that I had any responsibility to in my life, I would encourage them as strongly as I am able to learn how to defend themselves, particularly if they are women, because

0:26:38 Thomas: Fair enough. But so already, I mean, that's kind of where we're coming from and it's not, and again, if we're, we're all here saying, except Tom, I guess it's going a little little stronger. But if we're here saying we're not telling anyone else what to do, then yeah, that, that is what it is. We're just expressing kind of like, that's our mindset.

I just want to note, and I know it's not exactly the same, but like, I want to note how much we don't do this for men. Like we don't say like, yeah, I wanna be able to have the option to fight back if I'm attacked or if I'm robbed or whatever. Like it's, know it's not exactly the same, but, can't but help but feel like there's a little bit of that mindset creeping in.

But but anyway, back to the percentages thing, you'd have to look at the percentage of the time that this was going to happen from a stranger and that they were going to attack you in such a way, whatever they wanted from you, whatever they were trying to do, where the would be better if you tried to attack them back with violence and not worse. You'd haveto subtract the times it could be worse because I the factual question is.

And someday, you know, we could do this research. I know the answer is not zero. The number of times that there's someone who is a sexual predator, who's going to attack someone, someone fights them back and maybe introduces a weapon and turns it into a lethal situation that wasn't going to be lethal. That's That a non -zero number. I

0:27:51 Tom: Yeah.

0:27:51 Thomas: Don't know. We could research what it is and you would have to subtract that off.

0:27:53 Tom: Yeah, but I also think it's an unknowable number. Think it'S AN UNKNOWABLE NUMBER.

0:27:57 Eli: And it's it's well,

0:27:58 Thomas: I don't know about that.

0:27:59 Eli: Importantly, It is also a none zero number of people who have been in the midst of being attacked, introduced a weapon, and defended themselves. Right? Those are both non -zero numbers, I

0:28:06 Thomas: Yeah. That's Yeah, that's The whole thing I'm doing is that to a proper calculus, though, you would need to evaluate all of that. And I have my intuitions and Lydia has her feelings, again, based on who she is, too, and even her capabilities or what she would want to do as to what those numbers might be for her. And it I think an entirely reasonable, uh, that the the more effective way I've actually seen this on self-defense kind of posts, that often the more affective way to deal with things like this is stuff like honestly vomiting, pretending you're dying, pretending you're like, like, playing dead, like there's all these other tactics that are not, I'm going to fight him back with a knife I have, or I'm going to whatever, knee him in the groin, that are possibly more effective than trying to fight somebody who has a massive, massive advantage on you.

0:28:56 Eli: Without making a fact claim, right, that were true, why would self-defense classes exist? Sure.

0:29:03 Thomas: Why do we have people who carry 25 guns in this country? Do you think that, it's a lot of the same people.

0:29:07 Eli: No, that's that's it, that that is a possibility.

0:29:09 Thomas: Actually, I want to bring that up. It's a lot of the same people. There's a lot of people who, I was reading an article about kind of these self-defense, and this isn't the same exact thing, but it was self -defence involving like carrying a gun and all that stuff. And it was men and women. But a lot of those same people who are going to have that mindset are the ones that I would be like introducing into my daughter's life if I'm encouraging her to take these classes. I know you could try to vet it or whatever, but a lot of that, like, it's hey, either you get kill or get kill, fucking bullshit, you awful dystopian view of the world that I just don't want to take part in in that way. Don't, I think people's fears, uh, come from a place of truth is my answer to your question of

0:29:09 Eli: Okay.

0:29:48 Eli: Yeah, worldview would be. And look, it's it's definitely true, right, there are lots of crazy, like, you can take a fucking how to talk to your spirit angels class. And that doesn't mean that, like, well, doesn't that mean some people are talking to spirit angels? Right. So that's that's an entirely valid objection. We would have to sort of know the statistics on that. And we don't. Think, but the important takeaway, one of the things that I'm, I'm really getting here that I think you've brought up that's really important is it's vital for us as men to never tell anyone of any gender how they should react to sexual violence, violence.

0:30:24 Thomas: Course, yeah.

0:30:24 Eli: Right, um, that I completely agree with, uh, and I think is just, um, so important, even when we are trying to protect them, even when we're trying to, you know, keep them safe, we want to make sure that we don't accidentally infer that they have a responsibility, right, for for what a stranger or or does to them. One thing that's come up a couple of times is I do want to point out that, um, sexual attacks do also happen from the people we know, um, so we're not just talking about the stranger effect here, because let's be honest, like, the alley stranger is such a rare thing that we're kind of like, I don't know, should we put a helmet on our kids in case they get hit by a meteor? Right, the very real thing of a violent attack from someone you know, much, much, much bigger of a problem.

And so one of of the things that I really appreciate that you and Lydia have brought up here is, hey, not only do we have this philosophy about how we are choosing to deal with these scenarios, um, it's also really important for us as men not to accidentally communicate that we think there's a right way or a wrong way to handle those scenarios. Agreed.

0:30:25 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, and And and Building on what you just said, that with a helmet for a meteor thing, it is kind of like that when it comes to the stranger danger, mass knife and the thing. And so all that together, like the percentages we might be talking about might already be so low where where the self-defense fighting back would make a difference.

And blah, blah, I think wanted to put out there, really is, I think it's a legitimate life choice to just opt out of that, to say that is not, I will leave it to the fucking justice system if the event that get really fucking unlucky and roll the most snaky of snake eyes and have that specific set of circumstances that could have been avoided with carrying a weapon or with learning to fight back in that exact perfect way.

Wait, rather than go to all that mental fucking trouble, I'm just going to opt out of that entire transaction and outsource that to, I guess, the justice system or some shit. Like, I think that's a legitimate life choice. I'm not telling anyone what life choice choices to make. I just wanted to put kind of our view out there in case anyone else was feeling that.

0:31:34 Tom: Yeah.

0:32:31 Tom: Just have to say, like, I can't identify with that in any way. Like, I can't, I, I can't at all agree with that as somebody who is raising other people and in a position to offer advice to other people when they come to me for advice. Would I say you you should have? No. And I'm not, I want to get that out of the way first. There's no, you should haves involved, but I couldn't feel more strongly that whether we're the 10th most dangerous place in the world or not, women are in constant danger.

Lydia can't go to Target without getting harassed, can't go ride her bike on the same bike path that I ride every day because even in this neighborhood that I'm in, women last year were abducted from that bike path.

Men were not abducted, abducting from the bike path from it is, to me personally, so mine is out there, I think that it is absolutely essential to offer women every opportunity to to empower themselves and to do more than offer it, to encourage it at every possible level up to the point of arming women, so they bristle like fucking gun porcupines, if that's what they need to feel safe going out into the world. Outsourcing it to the justice department system is after the fact nonsense.

Like that doesn't, that doesn't prevent anybody from getting hurt when someone is attacked in the moment. There's no way to know whether somebody would have, well, you know, until she brought out that knife, I was just gonna rape her, you know, and then she brought that knife, and then I, then I decided to kill, I wasn't gonna strangle her and and throw her into the back of my car, I totally promise it's the knife that made me escalate the situation, like, not, like, all of that, all of it, just for me. Me, personally, absolutely not.

Like, are in the world, and they're walking around, and they are preyed upon at a constant level, a literally constant level. All of their activities are curtailed in ways that you and I never have to think about, and, like, the idea that that does not immediately and directly translate into a need for them to learn to physically defend themselves when they are in physical danger, I can't wrap my head around that. I just can't.

So, like, like my daughter said, Tom, I, that's too much for me to think about, I can't do it, I'd be like, you're doing it anyway, I just want to be out there and say it. Like, I'm sorry, tough shit, you're doing anyway, because the world you live in might fucking hurt you. And you might have this theoretical idea of what you would do in a moment of attack.

But my job isn't to help you deal with the theory of your life, but with what, what I perceive as the reality, that you might want to have this option in your pocket. And you might not know you want to exercise that option until the moment that your life is in danger. And I want you to have that choice when you need it and not eschew that choice because in some theoretical world, you've decided you don't.

0:32:35 Eli: Yeah, For me, uh, well, Thomas, I want to give you you a chance to respond if you'd like, but I, I do want to

0:35:29 Thomas: No. I think. Yeah, I mean, I think that we've already said everything. I think that the only reason I wanted to jump in is because I just think we continue to not quite be responding on the same terms. And so it gets frustrating. Again, tying in like avoiding a bike path is a nonviolent form of thing that I'm totally cool with. And so again, it's about talking about the specifically...

0:35:30 Eli: Yeah,

0:35:51 Thomas: You said carrying a weapon?

0:35:51 Tom: Yeah, but I want her to be able to get on the bike path. And if, yeah, if she wants, if, if he feels comfortable getting on that bike path because she's got a fucking gun, for example, now Hayley doesn't, but if that's what made her feel safe to go out into the world, then fucking pack a gun, absolutely pack a gun, yeah.

0:36:05 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, and I just could not disagree more. So I'm I'm glad that we, we expressed these.

0:36:09 Tom: I I I'm unwilling to say women should cede certain places because that's the truth of where we are at right now, like the reality right now that we're at is that women have ceded their freedoms and liberties to access public spaces out of what we think of as the necessity for them to keep themselves safe. I a hundred percent would support a violent retaking of those spaces, if that's what it takes for women to not have to put up with that bullshit.

0:36:11 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:40 Eli: I wasn't on board until you got into the fucking Les Mis bit at the end, and now, now I, now I'm picturing just Anna coming downstairs and like ramming a feminist flag through my chest and me being like, you know what, babe, good for you, you.

0:36:47 Thomas: The barrack. Yeah. Yeah.

0:36:54 Eli: I'm reminded of, is did you guys see this viral tweet, um, few, uh, maybe it was even a year ago about, uh, women, what would you do in a a world without men, um, fact, fun internet fact about that, that was like an anti-feminist trying to be like, we wouldn't be able to open jars.

0:37:02 Thomas: So depressing. Yeah.

0:37:11 Eli: And instead it became this sort of rallying cry for at least a lot of the women in my life, talking about all the things they feel like they can't do. Um, of it for me, I bring it to sort of a higher, more meta question of, like, how much do we prepare our kids for opportunity, um, options, right, and bring this away from the realm of sexual assault, um, of, think about, like, prepping, right, like, I'm, uh, as I've mentioned, I've always hinted at in the show a little bit, I'm like a prepper to, like, a slightly unhealthy degree, like, I describe it to people and they do that, like, like, "Cool." Yeah.

0:37:18 Thomas: Yeah.

0:37:49 Thomas: Does your prepping include just all the discarded food waste in your car? Cause that could, you could, your family could survive on that for quite a while.

0:37:52 Eli: I mean, you know, all those water bottles added together is a three week supply, Thomas. And where you come knocking at your in-laws door.

0:38:02 Thomas: Turns out he's a fucking genius, everybody. He's a fucking genius.

0:38:04 Eli: Yeah, thank you. Um, but like to, so much baggage, um, with the sexual assault thing, but to bring us to the idea of like options rather than not, right? So like a couple of the the prep things that I've done, we have a bunch of bottled water at my house, I think most lot of people have that, right? You probably didn't, do is waste $600 HSA dollars on a just-in-case medical kit made by definitely white supremacists and I did that, right? I got on, I got on the quote-unquote phone with a quote-unquote doctor who was like, now if the Jews come for you, and I was like, god damn, man, I really want to have antibiotics if something goes wrong, but I wish this conversation was...

Like to say that conversation was nightmarish is is is understatement of the century. But like that, that is sort of, I think, the high level conversation we're having here, is it's when we employ these options, do we make sacrifices? Right. Right. When we tell our sons, daughters, whatever, about these potentialities, do we make the world a better or a worse place? Now, when it comes to self-defense, I sort of like in the camp of the more options, the better. Think I would be worried if I had a daughter, which so far I don't, um,

0:38:23 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:38:42 Thomas: So, far

0:39:17 Eli: I had a daughter

0:39:18 Thomas: Guys you heard it, you heard it.

0:39:18 Eli: Yep then, certainly. Well, I, you know, honestly, that was just me accounting for if Max ever switches genders, so that I can play him this audio and be like, see, Daddy was always an ally, always an ally, which is why you should let me pick your new name. That's my thing, by the way, in case anyone wants to know, like, how are you going to get canceled. It's, if Max is ever trans, I want to give him a girl or non-binary name because naming is my right as a father, so just get your pre-cancels ready.

0:39:23 Thomas: Yeah. His trans, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair Yeah. Okay.

0:39:45 Eli: Everybody, that's my hot take, um, yeah, I would worry at a certain extent, right? Like, so for instance, I would not want, uh, in my life to have a gun because guns over, and I feel confident making a truth claim here, guns, if you are male, overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly, uh, you more often than they kill anyone else, uh, if you're female, are more likely to kill someone in your family, um, they are you, um, a lot of then

0:39:46 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:13 Thomas: If Then they are Sorry. Then they argue, or then they're like a bad guy, quote unquote, yeah.

0:40:16 Eli: They are a bad guy, then they are a bad guy, uh, and they are more likely likely to turn a spousal situation that is already violent deadly than they are to protect you. So I don't know, it's interesting because I feel like I'm in Tom Sylvania, if you will, when it comes to like the self-defense stuff, but I think guns are, for me at least, at least from the statistics I know, and we have some pro-gun listeners, one of our favorite listeners, um, the puzzle, uh, guests, actually saved her own life with a gun with an abusive ex-boyfriend in high school.

And so one of the first times when I said an anti-gun thing, she reached out super respectfully and was just like, hey, just so you know, like, I carry a gun, I really think guns are important, like, this is my story with guns. And I was like, hey, let me do some research so that I am not using my liberal bias to give bad information. And respected her enough and felt like we had communication enough for me to be like, hey, I googled it, and the good news is you rolled double sixes

0:40:17 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

0:41:14 Eli: Like I'm super psyched for you. Uh, so that, it's interesting, cause I then transfer over to Thomasville, uh, when it comes to the level of guns. So I think the higher level conversation, rather than sort of like what our daughters should learn specifically, is how much do we prep our kids? And we've gotten this as a question quite a bit. Like, how much did we prep her kids for school shootings? How much do we prep kids for climate change?

0:41:16 Thomas: Yeah.

0:41:16 Tom: Yeah.

0:41:37 Thomas: Perfect example, if you don't mind jumping, my jumping in, how do you guys feel real quick on the school shooter drills that are done where they, like, this is a perfect example, this is how I think of it. The school drills shooter that are done, there common examples that are, to my mind, are so fucking traumatizing that I would be furious if our school did that without notifying us and giving us the chance to opt out. Because two things are true.

We live in a dangerous world to an extent and gun violence is insane and school shootings are, any any number is far more than there should be, while still statistically it's incredibly unlikely to happen to my kid. And I don't want anything that is going to put introduce the trauma of a teacher pretending they're a gunman in a fucking school, scaring my kids into hiding under a desk imagining their lives being threatened, their their friends dying in the name of safety.

Oh, we're prepared now for a shooting. I don't, I want none of that. Absolutely none ofthat. And to me, this is a, not quite as bad, but similar thing in some ways, in my opinion. But, I will note that it's obviously something where I would put it to Phoebe. I would, I would like the information. And if she wants to learn such and such, she can learn such. And so I'm not going to, I'm Not like preventing her or something, but

0:42:38 Eli: Yeah.

0:42:55 Eli: So I actually have experience with this because Max's preschool does shooter drills, obviously, none of the, although, can I say how hilarious it would be for one of his Jewish teachers to be like, here I am, everybody, it's me, the bad shooter men, I'm coming in and I'm gonna, I'm going to give you such a clap, the cup, um, but he, his, his school does shooter drills, they have an armed guard at the school, um, then just this year, uh, because we got hate crimed by that hick who hurt himself so bad, it's so funny, uh, but because we got hate crime by the heck, we also put up these giant flower pots so nobody can like drive into the school.

But watching that, uh, effect in the school, so I will say the the shooter drills that they do, we had a big whole talk about it, they showed us exactly what they do, they just like teach them to be quiet, um, which is amazing, by the way, uh, some reason they're quiet frogs because they learn to squat down, but my son fucking love frogs, so the minute the teacher was like, we're quiet frog, Max was like, like, frog, frog, frog, so he was like, he was absolutely getting everyone in his class murdered if if they don't learn to use a different animal.

But the the feeling that I had in that moment, what that I have, acknowledging those things is, gosh, I hate that we live in a world where these things are necessary, but I do think they're necessary. Now, it could go too far, right?

I, I think if they do do a drill where they're using like active gunfire or blanks or some kind of shit like that, Max will absolutely not participate because I think that, again, there's a line for me of this exercise is more traumatizing than

0:43:19 Thomas: Jeez. Jeez. Yeah. Yeah.

0:44:27 Eli: It's worth it to prepare him for, um

0:44:27 Thomas: Yeah.

0:44:29 Tom: I want to just say, like, I, that's a terrible analogy, I do, um, like, I

0:44:33 Eli: I think you're a terrible analogy, Tom, take that Irish

0:44:34 Tom: And I'm not trying to be a total ship, I think it's a terrible analogy because I just was curious, like, talking about like that percentage wise is vanishingly rare, and we're saying like, is that a good analogy to like a stranger attack, it doesn't have to be rape, it could be robbery, for example, or any kind of violent assault, but by a stranger, but, like, I just looked it up and it's like 44% of women have been sexually, violently sexually assaulted.

0:44:36 Eli: I

0:45:00 Thomas: What?

0:45:00 Tom: One in five have been raped, but 44% of women experience some sort of sexual violence in their life. And 12% of those people, so 12% of women report that they were raped by, 12% of the women who were raped were raped by a stranger in their lifetime.

So if you do those numbers, we're talking about millions of women versus, like, mean, we are talking about millions, like you just, you just crunch the numbers, into 370 million people, 51% are female, one in five are raped, 12% of the one in 5 were raped by a stranger, this is not like, holy cow, like it's just like not gonna happen, like it is like winning the lottery level unlikely, like it is not something that that is like that, it is just not, it is, it is, and I know that like the conversation about guns, I use that as a, as a point of hyperbole.

My broader point was like, think that the, are extremely real. They are extremely real. And like self-defense, I think, is a rational response to a very rational danger. And that self-defence takes, takes the form, as we mentioned, of, of many different things. And like, at some point, it's rational response, response to living in a world that is trying to prey upon you. And I don't know that, like, for me, I don't know that I'm ever going to be comfortable saying, like, that's a bridge too far.

Like, for me, it's like, yeah, whatever means necessary. Literally whatever means necessary when we're talking about, you of people being harmed in this way. Know, and again, that's just sexual assault. You know, like, women are more likely to be violently robbed, women are more unlikely to be mugged, women are likely to have all kinds of violence perpetrated against them in numbers that are like different. So like, yeah, like, am I a gun guy? I'm not. Do I think guns make us safer? I don't.

If some woman says, you, this gun makes me feel safer, and I live in a world that is trying to prey on me, then I'm like, great, man, have a gun. Like, I, saying like, hey, I think everybody should arm themselves. But I'm like, yeah, I get it. Like, that's the point I wanted to make is like, I get it, whatever you need to feel comfortable. And like, part of me does think like, know what, man, maybe we should just give all the guns to women. Maybe,

0:47:07 Tom: Maybe every

0:47:07 Eli: Love that that's

0:47:07 Thomas: Well, you have me there. Yeah. No, you actually have me there. If we have to have them, then yes, women should own them. Yeah.

0:47:08 Eli: My take that's mine I love the you're

0:47:08 Tom: Woman, maybe, we should have fucking, maybe we should have free guns for women day. Maybe I should start a foundation where I raise money to give guns to woman so that all the women are armed.

0:47:19 Eli: Not gonna love the people who give to that foundation, Tom. I just want to give you a heads up right now, you're gonna be having a lot of lunches with Ted Cruz, so

0:47:21 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:47:23 Tom: I you know what if it that's you know what? Honestly, if it, if it puts, if it helps to equalize the violence playing field to some degree, I'd get into bed with a lot of fucking unsavory people, because I do think, I do feel the danger is that severe.

0:47:40 Eli: I do want to take a moment to acknowledge guns, because the numbers on this are very tricky and I try not to make truth claims, but again, this is something that I have done the research on. Except when I, exactly, thank you, exactly, except for when I do, um, is that the, um, are bad. Right. Important thing to understand about gun ownership, whatever anyone is fantasizing about gun ownership, is that unless you are a person with more than 100 hours of training specifically with a gun, you are wildly more likely to kill yourself or a family member with it, no matter what your gender is, than you are to defend yourself with it. If you're a woman, the only place where guns ones appear statistically useful is if you have more than a hundred. So first of all, if you have more than 100 hours of training, is true across the board, right? And then none, none of this applies under 100 hours.

If you have more than 100 hours of training, if you carry it externally, right, so on a hip, in a shoulder holster, in a hip holster, in an ankle holster, somewhere where you can access it quickly, there are some, not all, but there are some statistics that say that is useful against strangers, against people you know, against family members, against loved ones, all that stuff. It almost immediately is significantly worse for women than it is for men.

But if we're talking about this very specific, you percentage within a percentage that Tom was just talking about, I want to be intellectually honest and say that there are numbers out there that support well-trained women who wear guns externally do a good, a a good job of dissuading strangers from attacking them in a variety of ways. Uh, statistics aren't perfect, I think there are lots of challenges to them, uh, of the statistics that's used, is used, includes, um, female police officers, so I think

0:47:48 Thomas: Except when you do. Yeah.

0:47:49 Tom: No,

0:47:56 Thomas: They're bad.

0:48:18 Thomas: Exactly. Yeah

0:49:34 Eli: That throws the numbers out pretty significantly, but like, of the research that I've done, in this conversation with a very sweet listener, that is what I know. So, for me, again, I not about someone feeling safe, right? I wouldn't let someone have a hammerhead shark if they said it made them feel safer, right? Um, I know that they're way more likely to get eaten by that hammerhead sharp than they are to like push the button on the tank and sploosh it out at an attacker in the moment. Yeah, I know, I know, uh, he's, he's getting a sawhead, so, um, yeah, so that, I, I do want to

0:49:34 Thomas: Well, there goes Arlo's birthday present. Great. Yeah

0:50:06 Eli: Acknowledge because the one of the pieces of feedback that we got, um, I again try to sort of avoid the feedback, um, but one of these is a feedback we got is like, hey, I thought you were a little dismissive of guns, you should probably mention this thing, and it was the thing that I just said, which sure.

0:50:07 Thomas: Yeah.

0:50:20 Thomas: Free to put that on me anytime you want. No I don't fucking fucking care. Guns suck. I don't care what stats that the tiny little thing. I do care about the stats. I Don't care about one cherry pick stat. That's like, well, if you're specifically in Honduras on a Thursday and you have a machine gun at your side, it's like I don't care, man. I don't care as a whole. They are bad. They're just bad and I don't care how safe it might make someone feel if they want to do like, I'll just talk about Phoebe. If Phoebe says it's so so dangerous out there. I want to carry a gun to feel safe. I'm going to say no. As If long as I have control of you, you can do whatever you want when you're 18 or whatever. As long as I have any control over you, I will say unequivocally no, because feeling safe is not what is important. Being safe is what is importance. And the people being safe around you is what's important.

0:51:06 Eli: And it's also really important to, to, that it is an incredibly small percentage of gun owners, so when I say those statistics, um, people often hear is not, wow, I am a gun owner and I need a hundred hours of training, right, because they're, they're like, well, I've been to of the shooting range a couple of times, what they hear is, great, I should get a gun, a gun will keep me safe. Right. Just keep in mind that, again, without that a hundred hours of training, all of the positives, which are caveated a million times over by all these specific suppositions, um, are all immediately washed away. Right? One of the issues that we deal with when it comes to guns in this country, and this is true of everything gun safety, right?

This comes, this is through of like keeping a gun in the home. If you have a hundred dollars of training and keeping a a gun in the home, if you so and such and giving people guns, like we could do a whole probably SIO episode on like gun safety and the myths surrounding it, um, like the really really important thing to keep in mind is that what people take away from the conversations about the efficacy of guns is, I can have a gun and it will help me, not, I must do this thing to even even remotely be possibly

0:51:06 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

0:52:16 Eli: Able to have a good outcome for a guy, right? It's, it is almost like saying, if I were to say, you know, some people win money at the casino, right, which is true, some people win money at the casino, but if I don't tell you, most of them are count, I'm making this up by the way, this isn't real, but like, if I don't tell you most of them are like count counters or cheats, you then walk into a casino thinking, well, you don't, Elias on that show and he was willing to make a factual claim, so you know, maybe I'm gonna win money at the casino,

0:52:17 Thomas: Absolutely. Yeah. Did let's all fucking put all in on red or whatever. Joke to get us out of this depressing topic.

0:52:53 Eli: Joke to get us. Oh, I'm, I'm glad you met, hey, I fucking hate the auto ads, I think the only thing we can admit, no, I already did that, this show, damn it, damn it all.

0:52:57 Tom: Oh,

0:53:07 Eli: Little news flash for you, uh, before we go, scientists were finally able to to weigh a rainbow. Turns out, it's pretty light.

0:53:18 Tom: My God, no.

0:53:20 Thomas: Oh,

0:53:23 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.