SIO374: Maybe Swearing Around Your Kids Is Fine?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:16 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 374. I'm am Thomas Smith. Thank You so much joining me today. You know it? Month of July, episodes a week, got through it. Only one was slightly not on time and that was, well, I say slightly, it was significantly not on a time, but that was because of a crazy where where there's woke circumstances. Reminder, check out the James Webb Telescope series over there. It's done. It's dusted. Be on to not bigger and better things.

We're beyond the more things, but check that out. That series, again, so many hours of content there and I found it really interesting and I hope you'll check it out. Far as series inquiries only is concerned, also got the Armageddon bonus coming up. We recorded that. It is going to take me a minute to edit. I've got so much editing work to do and I will catch up. So it'll be out in a little bit, but that was, oh, that was so much fun.

You're going to love it. It was, uh, whoo, it was a good time. A good time was had by all. That's going to be on patreon.com/seriouspod for second level of patrons and above. You dearly to my patrons for pledging and supporting the show. It's the reason I get to come on and learn things from cool people as a job, which is the best job I can possibly imagine. So today's show, we're going to talk about cursing around your kids.

And no, I promise this isn't just an actor that I hired to come on here and justify me swearing around my kids or something. I promise that's definitely not at all what's happening here. Actors are on strike, so that's how you know for sure that that it couldn't be that, because I wouldn't be able to get... Anyway, we're joined by a cognitive neuroscientist who teaches psychology, research on taboo language, conspiracy theory belief. Oh, we'll have to do one on that. But anyway, Dr. Scolaro joins us to tell us why it might actually be okay to swear around your kids. Can't wait to be armed with that justification. So let's get on over to the interview. I'm joined by dr ashley Scolaro and we are going to curse out our kids. How are you doing?

0:02:17 Ashley: I'm doing great. How are you?

0:02:19 Thomas: Good.

0:02:20 Ashley: Thanks for having me on.

0:02:21 Thomas: Thank you for suggesting this topic for reaching out. Now I will say this this feels like one of those things to be a good skeptic. This is one of those things where like, I feel like I want it to be true. So I'm going to have to make sure to be extra skeptical of your claims. You know what I mean? Like I, I want to, I, you know, I'm not going to be skeptical of it. I'm just going to want it. Your pitch was, Hey, I could come and talk about how you should curse around your kids. And I'm like, I love that. So I want to make sure I pry proper skepticism to this claim. But why don't you, before we get started, why don't you just give a brief bio introduction to the listeners, if you don't mind.

0:02:56 Ashley: So, I'm an associate professor of psychology at a small liberal arts college in Iowa. It's called Central College. And I've been there for 11 years. My My training, so my research area is cognitive neuroscience, and I have expertise in lots of areas within cognition, so memory, facial recognition. But since I've been teaching and working with students, one of the areas I focus the most on is taboo language and child development. Yeah. Cursing, we call it taboo. Taboo language is kind of the umbrella term. But But yeah, cursing, swearing, profanity, that all fits in that category. So, yep.

0:03:36 Thomas: Well, it's so interesting. I actually, you might've heard a somewhat recent episode with Stormy on slurs and that kind of taboo language. When you reached out, I actually had forgotten we had done that one. So I don't, I hope it's not like too similar. It sounds different. Um, for

0:03:52 Ashley: It's different. I, yeah, I did have a little bit of a freak out at the moment thinking, okay, do I have something that's different enough? But it is different when I listen to, yeah. What Dr. Schmierbeck was saying. Yeah, I, it, it was, I was, it wasn't, it didn't, I didn't know what I was doing. It's different, it

0:04:03 Thomas: Sure. And it, and the parenting angle I think is a little different too, because it's more about it. This feels more about like, you know, expressing anger, stubbing your toe, that kind of thing, uh, versus, you knows, slurs might be a different story. So, all right. Well, with um, that that introduction, let's find out why I should just curse out my kids right now.

0:04:24 Ashley: I think being skeptical of this is great because it's one of those topics in in the parenting world, that people pretty universally seem to agree that you shouldn't swear in front of your children. But the science behind that just really doesn't support that that's necessary. It doesn't seem that you have to censor your language in front of your child. And it might be better, in fact, not to do that. So kind of starting about it, one good way to do you, that is to consider why people maybe feel that you shouldn't swear a curse around your children. So is there anything you've heard about that where you shouldn'T, why you shouldn' t do it?

0:05:03 Thomas: I was just going to ask, you mentioned the science. I was imagining that this was one of those things that there wouldn't, it's not like there's some study that said like, don't curse around your kids that I know of, or is there? Because I was imaging that's just a kind of a moral claim. It's kind of societal, oh, we shouldn't do this. It could be a remnant of a more older, more religious just time or something like that or is your feeling that maybe there there was actual like claims of science around that.

0:05:31 Ashley: I think you're definitely right with the moral piece. Episode with Dr. Schmierbeck, and if people haven't listened to that, I'd encourage them to go listen to it because it really talks about the slur piece, which we can get into that with children too, and some of the the issues around that, but it seem to be mostly a moral piece. So you're getting at the religiosity, I think is definitely there. I was raised Lutheran, which, and my husband was raised Catholic. So Lutherans like Catholic light, and there's Definitely a lot of don't use, you know, religious swearing words. And I think the purity culture in a sense of children kind of pulls from from that moral reasoning overall. The thing that it has a moral tie that I've heard people say is they're worried their kids are going to start mimicking that language.

0:05:59 Thomas: Yeah.

0:06:18 Ashley: Like if you say that word, they're going to say it all the time. Because if you have small kids, they do that, right?

0:06:17 Thomas: They do Yeah.

0:06:24 Ashley: Like they pick out.

0:06:24 Thomas: The things they unintentionally say that are just alarming are it's funny it's sometimes it's so alarming that you're like oh my god I know this is them just mimicking a word but wow weird

0:06:31 Ashley: Yeah. You learn how you talk when you listen to your kids, right? They mimic that back to you. So, I mean, there's some people that know that and then think, oh, if I use this word, like all of a sudden it's like a gateway, like now my kid's going to be using the word all the time. Then that potentially could have consequences for your kid and how people are reviewing them. So people are worried about that. The research shows that that's not really the case. Not a ton of research on this because largely tabby language was pretty ignored in the psycholinguistic research. Wasn't It really viewed as a topic that needed to be studied a lot. There are a few studies here and there.

0:07:18 Thomas: Because that feels like the first thing I would would want to research. I'd walk into the linguistics office. All right, you fuckers, come on. Let's fucking do some research, assholes. Here we go. What you been doing?

0:07:22 Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I'm not aware of a study that does that. I do have, I do have a study I can share about the words that children use. But

0:07:38 Thomas: But I'm setting a trap for them because if they complain like, hey, you're cursing. Oh, oh, is that bad? I don't know. You haven't done any science on it. Get to it.

0:07:38 Ashley: Um yeah I mean, and that's the other part, like it's not just that you're swearing in front of your kids, but maybe we should feel more comfortable with kids swearing, so long as they do it appropriately. And again, that's a moral question. So that's up to parents and how they would like to raise their children.

0:07:58 Thomas: Right. Yeah. From the parenting side too, I think a lot of this is like all of a sudden, I just mentioned this on a dad's that I like a lot of parents just forget instantly what they were like as a kid, you know, like they have a kid and they're like, I would never have sworn. And you're like dude, we were, we're eight and we're trying to see if we could collect all the swear words like Pokemon or something, you Know, like we were like, what ones do you have? You know? And we're like comparing swear words. We learned it's, it's totally normal.

0:08:16 Ashley: Sure.

0:08:30 Ashley: Yeah. No, it's definitely normal. So for sure, children swear. I'll talk about a study where they studied children from as young as one to 10, where they were watching them and they swore quite a bit, but when you're swearing in front of your kids, it's just like any other type of language.

You're teaching them what the words are without having to like, I mean, like if I swear in front my children, I have to sit down and say, okay, so I said, fuck, and this is what fuck means. Like, I don't need to do that. Right. Like but what's more important for them is that they're learning when you use it and how you use It. So I swear around my kids. We swear like it's like a a social pragmatic thing.

Like we, the way we talk at home is very different than how we talk out in public. It's different than How We Talk at Work. And kids pick up on that more than just with swearing, right? Things like, like at home, if my kids run into me or cut me off as I'm walking, they don't say excuse me. But you know, Target just the other day, my son completely cut off another kid to try to grab a Minecraft. I don't know

0:09:35 Ashley: What it was like a waffle or something like there were tons of them, but we had to talk about, no, you say, excuse me there. Right. So we do that for other types of language. And that's really the key here is that you're teaching your child how to use those words. Right, right. The context.

0:09:48 Thomas: Like. The context. Yeah. Yeah. So, You're not like, hey, um, a fuck stick is... Oh, how do I define a fuck stick? Okay, it's not a literal stick. I don't think. Well, maybe it is, I don't know. Actually, that's a good... Let's look it up. That's what... That's why we do when we don't know something, we look it up. Okay, Google, fuck stick. That's it. That's good joke for Sesame Street watchers that, uh, so I know some parents will get that one.

0:10:03 Ashley: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Swearing in front of your kids, you're not going to have the problem with with them mimicking it any more than usual. I mean, you might have it happen a few times, just like anything they're not supposed to do. You know, sometimes you have to correct kids. Saying things like, you know, at our house, we say that's an at -home word. So they know it's at home.

0:10:30 Ashley: If it's a religious word they're using and we're around religious family members or people, we remind them like, this is not, you now, the context to use that. That.

0:10:30 Thomas: Oh, I like that.

0:10:40 Thomas: At home word. I'm I'm gonna use that. I'm really going to borrow that if you think that's a good method.

0:10:44 Ashley: That is what we have done. We have sworn in front of our kids, I have researched this long enough, that we have that since they were born. And all, rarely have they used those words in public. Yeah, at home, and you might hear other parents do it. I have heard a few parents say that too, like that is an at home word. So I think some of that is getting out there. But, yeah, that that's kind of the context. So yeah, swearing isn't going to do anything. Not going to be harming your child by doing that with the exception of slurs. And again, that slurs are a different category entirely. As Stormy mentioned, like we've got, it's going to cause prejudicial attitudes, discriminatory behavior. Slurs are not what we're talking about here.

0:11:01 Thomas: Like it. Yeah.

0:11:26 Thomas: Well, we'll for sure cat and we're just talking about, you know, good old fashioned cursing. I was gonna, I was going to say your grandfather, wait, no, not your grandfather's cursing probably. The slurs are more your grandfather. Father's territory. We're going with not your grandfather's curse.

0:11:32 Ashley: Yeah.

0:11:45 Ashley: Good is, again, It's really important for human language to overall, like, it is a way for us to express emotion. And that's important socially to like, if I'm in pain, somebody else, it's helpful for other people to know that if somebody is angry at me and using those words, that's helpful, right? It's built into our brain. So when people have brain damage and even, yeah, so taboo language, the swearing, cursing, it requires a different hemisphere of your brain than most speech. So most speech you use your left hemisphere for, the vast majority of people do. Do.

0:12:03 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Oh, built in. Wait, hold on. What's built in what way and in what what is built into our brain?

0:12:26 Thomas: Really?

0:12:26 Ashley: But taboo language is something unique in that it relies on our right hemisphere, which is a bit different and ties to some emotional centers in your brain. So people can have damage to their left hemisphere, and the only words they can say are swear words in some cases. There's been some case studies of that.

0:12:46 Thomas: Oh, my God, that is the best. I love that. OK, well, first question, I know that things were neatly divided up into hemispheres so much. I know the the left and right brain thing is a total myth, myth but it's it's not so much that people are, but the part that's a myth is not that I, I guess, from what you're saying, is notthat things aren't divided up a little bit, it's that people aren't like either left or right brain. So, it does that sound right? Interesting.

0:12:48 Ashley: Yeah. Yep.

0:13:10 Ashley: Yeah, the left and right brain thing is a huge myth. I mean, I spent a whole two class periods in neuroscience talking about that with students. But what a little bit trickier is that, yeah, you're not right or left brain, but your right and left brain do different things with language. They both do language, they just do it differently. And since your right hemisphere does a lot of the emotional aspects of language, that's kind of where these tabby words fit in, because a lot of them are emotionally charged when we're using them. Even if we're using them for humor or to get somebody or to be excited, right? That's emotion. So it's tied to that too.

0:13:26 Thomas: Okay.

0:13:45 Thomas: I'm gonna ask you some basic brain stuff, um, pretend I've never seen a brain. Now that I'm really, I don't know anything about brains, I'm realizing. I know there's the different, like, right I I mean, but when you say left and right brain or hemispheres, is it, are there like different named regions that do different things, or is it literally like, no, it's just the different, the two sides of your brain happen to specialize in things different. I don't understand what, why, I guess I'm wondering, like, why is there that division of labor in that way? It seems kind of weird.

0:14:18 Ashley: I mean, if we could, there's lots of things we don't know 100% in neuroscience. Left hemisphere of your brain, and it's not in every person, about 70% of, I won't get too detailed into it. But let's say for the majority of people, the left hemisphere of your brain, you have several areas that process language. Your brain is built to process language through hearing, which is why reading is difficult. You actually have an area that we've recruited over time called the angular gyrus that helps you with reading. And it's typically on your left hemisphere. It converts what you see into auditory stimulus. So hearing, because that's what we've done for thousands of years.

0:14:21 Thomas: Sure. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Hmm. Ah.

0:14:59 Thomas: I, so I think I asked, I know I'm, I'm already asking you so many questions, but I realized I asked my question in a pretty bad way. I was trying to find a way to word this. Um, you just said there's a re that region you just named, you said it's typically in the left side. So that kind of gets at the weird thing I'm trying to ask, which is it's not, is the brain in terms of, okay. In terms of physiology, isthe brain basically symmetrical or are there different like physiological physiological ways the brain is structured or you know what I mean does that make sense

0:15:21 Ashley: Yes, So yeah, the angular gyrus is an example of that. In your left hemisphere, you have that special region for that. You have even more specific areas. If you've heard of Broca's area before or Wernicke's area, those are on the left hemisphere virtually in everyone. They're not on the right hemisphere and virtually everyone.

0:15:48 Thomas: It, like, if the brain is... I know it's not literally at all this, but like, if the BREAN were like a hard drive, is it... Like, okay, you've got, uh, speaking, you got your hemisphere. So let's say, say you got your left hard drive and your right hard drive, and you've just saved different programming to those hard drives? Or is it like, no, one of them is like a solid state and the other one's got, you know, like this one's a got different speeds and read and write speeds and different structures and different ways it's built. Is it more like that? That's kind of the thing I'm trying to get at. Is the different region defined by function or defined by form? I guess, okay.

0:16:22 Ashley: You're definitely using different regions, kind of like the programming analogy, I Would say is probably the closest the closest piece. Yeah, I mean, yeah, correct.

0:16:27 Thomas: Gotcha. So it is more like based on what the brain is doing might make it a different, like, region. That's what I was trying to get out, with how it's structured. It's not like it's, you know, oh, we have ways that the neurons are built differently over here, whatever, you know. Sorry, I really know nothing about fucking brains, I'm realizing. I've never ever studied the brain in any way, so apologies if this is incredibly stupid questioning, but I just never, had never ever thought about it.

0:16:37 Ashley: Correct. Well, you know, no, it'S a very, it's a very good question. And here maybe is another way. So I I mentioned taboo language is, you recruiting different regions, has a different physiology to it. So does singing. So people can lose speech ability, but still be able to sing.

0:17:07 Thomas: I've heard of that. Yeah.

0:17:09 Ashley: Another route, like,

0:17:09 Thomas: And is, is when that happens, is it pretty unlimited? Like as long as they're like doing a Miranda apology video that she should, uh, I'm glad you do what I was talking about. She should, she should go ahead and use that excuse. Yeah, brain injury. I had a brain injury, that's why I can only apologize with this terrible video. Uh, or so is it, back to the question, is it as though they're able to to basically talk sprix to me? Like they could just talk, sing, or is it that they can sing familiar songs still, but they can't, you know, like they couldn't say words or whatever.

0:17:17 Ashley: Yes, yeah, they're usually singing familiar songs. I'm thinking of the cases where we've seen, so we can, in a lab, we can temporarily, the this sounds scary. It's not as scary as it sounds, but temporarily disrupt.

0:17:57 Thomas: Lobotomize someone. No, I'm just kidding.

0:17:58 Ashley: Yeah. Temporarily shut off regions of the brain. And when I say temporarily, I mean milliseconds. And there's videos of this online. It's called transcranial magnetic stimulation. And there was a BBC person on there where he did it and he was able to sing a familiar song even when that region was shut off, but he couldn't talk. If you look at Alzheimer's patients or other people with dementia, you can see this too, but I'm pretty sure it's just familiar songs. I don't know if they've seen it.

0:18:02 Thomas: Wow. Yeah. That's, yeah, that, that makes sense. Uh, Cause it would, it would be funny if it was like a one weird trick to just be able to talk. Like I just always have to be singing like that. It makes now I don't know shit about the brain. So anything you tell me, I would believe. But that makes more sense that it was like, no, you can sing familiar songs because that's like a different thing going on versus if you just happen to use, you know, melody, then all of a sudden you can talk perfectly fine. That would be weird.

0:18:43 Ashley: I'm not sure.

0:18:58 Ashley: I mean, then people might be able able to make up songs, I'm not familiar enough with it, with that particular literature, other than knowing they can sing and it's a different region. Yeah.

0:19:06 Thomas: All right.

0:19:07 Ashley: So,

0:19:07 Thomas: So just to make sure I have you, it know just to use the computer analogy I know it's not a perfect analogy but but just to make sure I understand, is it more like, yes, this is where this code resides or is it, no, this Is where like this Intel processor is versus this is Where like this AMD processor is. And that's why it does these different tasks. It's a little bit built differently. You know what I mean? Like which, I don't know which of those two things based on what you're saying.

0:19:32 Ashley: Normal brain, yeah, there's regions that just process certain things. Your brain is so plastic from birth on that it could change, but yes, there are regions where it's specific to processing certain things. So the person, that Paul Broca, who discovered Broca's area by, pay by studying a patient with a, who'd had a stroke and brain damage to this region, that region's really, really important for you being able to, the motor movements associated with speech. So if you lose, if that area dies or is damaged, you're going to have a, you can't speak. You can see videos of this type of, it's called aphasia. There's lots of different kinds of aphasias and they're tied to damage to certain regions that process that. It's not the case for the entire higher brain, but there are definitely specific areas that do that.

0:20:13 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, know the brain is really plastic. If an area is damaged, hypothetically, let's assume, you we've got like a superhero of neuroplasticity. Hypothetically, could any other region sort of take on those duties over time or Would it have to be like, okay, so so it does sound like brain is basically brain physiologically, no matter where you are, it's just that there's different reasons that have been tasked with different things, not like they're built, like literally built differently, you know what I mean? Hmm.

0:20:24 Ashley: Um, Yeah.

0:20:57 Ashley: I think so. I mean, as, can see that they're tasked with certain things and these people that, so the woman I worked with for my master's degree, She had prosopagnosia. You may have heard of that before as face blindness, so she can't recognize faces. And she had it as a result of a stroke to a specific region of her brain when she was in her late 40s. If she had been younger, her brain could have taken that area and done something else with it. It. But when you're born, it's set up to do certain things.

0:21:17 Thomas: Right. Right. Yeah. Okay. I think think I understand, but I just thought of maybe a really good way to, maybe this will make it easier, in let's, the say I'm just a really disturbing serial killer. No, I'm juste a scientist doing a dissection of a whatever, of a human body. I were to take a random sampling of a certain, I don't know, like a cube of brain of a certain size from different regions and place it on your, you know, on your table at random. Could you tell where it's from? By what it looks like.

0:21:43 Ashley: Mm-hmm. Yeah. A microscope, depending on depending on where it is, sometimes it Depends on where you're at. Yeah, so in the brainstem, definitely, differently, um, parts you might be able to as well, depending on it, but

0:22:00 Thomas: Yes. Sure. Oh, interesting. Okay. But, Interesting. Yeah, that's kind of what I was trying to get at is like, is it physically built different? I do know there's like, what is there like more gray matter? There's more, I've heard stuff about that.

0:22:15 Ashley: Yeah, There's different layers of tissue depending on where you're at in the brain, so if you were to like take a section out, you could see under a microscope, sometimes visibly, it depends on where you're at, but you can see like there's layers within the brain, and that could tell you, oh, that's the part of the brain that does motor movement, or that's the part of the brain that does touch. You'd be able to tell that because of how those layers are structured, if that helps.

0:22:38 Thomas: Oh okay. Oh interesting. Interesting. And when you say that, is it that you're, that's just helping you locate it within the models that we're familiar with? Or so like you said, 70 % roughly of people are built a certain way. Are you just saying you'd be able to say, well, there's a 70% chance that this is that because that's how most people are build. Or could you literally see like, oh no, this is that region that like the way that it's, I don't know, folded or something. This is that region. So I can tell that it does this thing.

0:23:13 Ashley: No, I'd have, you'd have to use like fMRI or something to see it functioning for those, those speech areas. Yeah.

0:23:20 Thomas: Okay. Interesting.

0:23:20 Ashley: So for those you wouldn't.

0:23:21 Thomas: Well, I appreciate you going down that, uh, you know, rabbit trail to help me understand. It does sound like then it's kind of both, like it's kinda both, maybe there's structural differences from different regions, but also, you due to neuroplasticity and stuff like there are, you ways that the brain could compensate and move stuff around in the case of injury. Okay. Really fascinating. Thanks for, uh thanks for taking the time to do that. I know it's can be tedious, but do I understand it a little better. All All right. So got the language. Okay. Singing is different. Were saying that there's actual differences in the brain handling, I think, of taboo language and cursing versus regular language, I think. Or you were saying there's something in the Brain that, oh yeah, that's right. I had asked you. So when you had said our brains are built for it or something like that. And so that's where, how we got onto this. So hopefully that helps get you back on on track.

0:23:37 Ashley: Yep. Yep. You Right.

0:24:07 Ashley: Yeah. A researcher and there's probably researchers before him, but he's the most he's a lot of work in the early 90s. Timothy Jay is his name. And he proposed this neuropsychosocial model of taboo language and pointed out lots of ways that your brain is built for taboo language. And like, you know, if we know that, taboo languages relies on the right hemisphere and which is because emotionally tied, you Know, the right atmosphere gets pulled, whereas other types of language is, is usually on the left. So, um there's some neurological basis for that as well is that, um, can have damage to their, speech centers of their brain, but still be able to swear. And that might be all they're able to do, Or um. Somewhat what they're able to deal with. Yeah, there's some, there're some built in pieces in there. Um, and that helps kind of explain why children start using that language, just like they're hardwired to learn any type of language, I pick up on that too.

0:24:07 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:25:10 Thomas: It do you think it's that I do we know like that what different region of the brain is really doing? Like, why do you think we need a different region to process cursing or whatever, like a specialized thing? Is it like maybe the emotional impact of knowing that these words are very, you important in some way that

0:25:25 Ashley: It's the emotional piece. Yeah. So, like, any tie is going to really heavily rely lie on that hemisphere of the brain for language. So it pulls not just on negative emotions, like I stub my toe and then I swear because I'm hurt. But even some things like humor can be tied to that too. So it's just as some of the emotional and tonal kind of pieces pieces of language, right? So changing my tone of voice, those types of things on

0:25:34 Thomas: Hmm. Hmm.

0:25:58 Thomas: Okay. And is it tied more to specific words or like you say, just context, like emotional context?

0:26:05 Ashley: Emotional context seems to be what it's pulling there. Why the taboo words get pulled and not other words is probably because they just have a pathway to those emotional centers because we've been wired that those words are wired, right, right.

0:26:20 Thomas: There's way more. Yeah. Always probably correlated somewhat. Whereas other words might be more like, you know, sometimes it could be emotional. Sometimes it could not be depending on the context.

0:26:31 Ashley: And to go go back to Dr. Schmierbeck's that episode. I mean, the research with the galvanic skin response is a great example. Like you say one of those words, your body has a natural reaction to it. You're right. Hemispheres doing that, that work of getting that, that arousal state going.

0:26:47 Thomas: All right. So, okay. Don't think we've gotten into any studies or anything about cursing around your children yet. Are we?

0:26:54 Ashley: I mean there aren't a lot of studies about cursing directly in front of, in front of your children. There are studies about have been done where they're listening to children so out and playground so seeing what children say and these are important because you swearing in front of children is something that people just universally say we shouldn't do and parents won't even take their children necessarily to a movie that's rated PG because there might be more offensive swearing words even if they're kind of euphemistic ones. Would be really difficult to get people to bring a child into a lab and swear in front of them. You might not even get institutional support.

0:27:32 Thomas: Right.

0:27:33 Ashley: It might not even be ethical.

0:27:33 Thomas: I'll do it. Phoebe, Arlo, come over here.

0:27:34 Ashley: Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, so I have the, the N of two of my two children to look at, but one of the things they have done is looked at children's use of words. And so in 1992, Timothy Jay and his colleagues did this study where they looked at daycare, preschool, playground, and school settings, and they looked at kids from one to 10. So they're just observing them and their natural child habitats interacting with each other. And within the range of the study, they, they heard 663 episodes of cursing. So, 663 times they heard the children using them.

0:28:20 Ashley: And Uh, yeah, and there's some interesting differences, so they broke the words down into what male and female children were saying. Now, this is 1992, so they're going to be different than today's words, but some of them are the same. Um, have anything non -binary. They were just separating boy and girl. So the ones that both boys and girls were saying were fuck, shit, jerk, and bitch. Said those the most frequently and were used.

0:28:17 Thomas: Man, whose damn hell -ass kids are these?

0:28:37 Thomas: Sure. Yeah. Wait, did you say jerk? I'm sorry, that's not there was a movie called The Jerk, in like, when was that, like 1979? I don't even, that that's, that's not a swear word. That's not a swear. I'm saying it wasn't even a swear word back then is what I'm saying.

0:28:53 Ashley: Um Yes. Was used. They're dating ourselves. Yeah. Well, it's a, so this is where it's, it ranges of, so

0:29:11 Thomas: Or was it like jerking off or something? Was it? No?

0:29:14 Ashley: I don't know. It was just jerk, but chill. I mean, when you think about saying, oh my gosh, that's still, we would count as taboo language. You're not saying God, but you're saying, oh my gosh, you're using a euphemism, less offensive word for that. So counts in that partly because it's also a slur and some, it could be a slurer in some way.

0:29:16 Thomas: Huh. Okay. Wow. Who is that interest group? It's time we speak up for jerks. So many of us are discriminated against through no fault of our, well, no, I mean, we are, we are jerks, let's be honest. That is our word, though. You can't use that word. Hmm.

0:29:52 Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how they used it, but that is when you survey people on offensiveness and if something would be a taboo word or not, they fit that in there as swearing or cursing. So it's not the most offensive, but it's one that's in there. What's in that study, what I think is really interesting is there's quite a few slurs, which goes back to the problem of using slurs is that you're hurting other groups of people.

It's also kind of why some people don't want to swear in front of their children. They're worried that kids might be verbally aggressive. Really, the only reason you need to worry about that is if you are using slurs. Children in the study did use slurs, some of them are like there's girls, interestingly, but not boys use the derogatory term for gay men. So the F word in that sense. Were some derogatorio words toward Vietnamese people as well. So that I will say that word because I don't know that a lot of people know that one. So word's dink. I that times it a little bit. The girls were more likely to use those. I'm not entirely sure what they don't have a conclusion from that, but the girls

0:30:42 Thomas: Yeah.

0:31:01 Ashley: Were using that.

0:31:00 Thomas: I mean is that just kind of like specific to where they were or something. I've never heard any of that. That's interesting. Oh.

0:31:05 Ashley: Must have been. Yeah. Yeah. They also said the other word that's a slur word. And this is where I think euphemisms for slur words can be problematic because we lose where that word came from. Occasionally, if you could just not use a slur, use something appropriate instead of, you know, the F word or something when possible with kids, that'd be ideal. But the one word's bingo, and most of us wouldn't say, oh, bingo's a taboo word, but came from bino, so the derogatory term for Hispanic people, and was used by girls.

0:31:41 Thomas: Like in response to gringo or something?

0:31:44 Ashley: Seems like it just, they, some reason, those got merged together for a period of time.

0:31:48 Thomas: What, where was this? I feel like they were fucking with these people doing the study. They just invent. I, they

0:31:55 Ashley: Well, no, these were just, they're watching children. They're literally on a playground or daycare watching them.

0:31:57 Thomas: Yeah, but someone tipped off these children and they're like, let's make up several terms that no one's fucking ever heard of for different, that, what, where was this?

0:32:09 Ashley: It was 1992.

0:32:09 Thomas: I was alive in 1992?

0:32:10 Ashley: It was in 1992. So we have to keep that in mind. Yeah. I mean, I was too, I wasn't using these words, but I guess the Vietnam, nom.

0:32:13 Thomas: No, one was they're not real. What?

0:32:22 Ashley: They were, I mean, they were used, dink was used, again, I'm using a slur, that, word of all the times it was, it was used over 50 times in that study. So it could just be that that group of kids, I means, taboo words do have a social nature, right? You get into a group where you're using these words.

0:32:33 Thomas: The hell? Yeah. Oh. Right. Especially with kids. Yeah, I remember I can absolutely remember, like, you know, the peer group starts saying a certain, you, curse word or whatever, or even like a word for something being cool. Like, there's that too, like. Like, and then that's the word for like a month or something. Or maybe it was like three days, but it felt like a month because we were kids. I don't know.

0:32:40 Ashley: Yeah. Right. Mm -hmm. Yep. You got to figure that out as a parent, So you sound cool or a college professor. So keep up with the times. So the point of that study is just that kids were using it and parents are not saying that they're telling their kids this. The point being that swearing in front of your kids, it's not going to, they're going to be swearing anyhow. You're not going To affect them. But what you can do as a parent is do the social modeling, which is really the learning perspective, lots of learning studies on how what parents do. Children learn their behavior from their parents, including language.

They can learn a lot of vocabulary, not just taboo words, but other words as well. They learn how to interact with wait staff. One of the biggest predictors of how much you tip is how much your parents tipped. That doesn't always hold true, but generally does. So we tend to model what we've what we've heard. So if children are hearing, you use taboo words in those contexts, they're going to be repeating it in those context and around with those words with their friends.

So they'll do that too. But as a parent, if you're just not censoring your speech, they're up on when to and not to use those particular words. Again, in with a few corrections here or there. My child said fuck balls at an amusement park and I had to say, no, why? This isn't the time. It's that at -home word.

0:33:01 Thomas: Yeah.

0:34:20 Thomas: At home word. Yeah.

0:34:21 Ashley: But they're, they're already doing it. So what I think is really helpful is making sure that that conversation stays open with children about what the words mean, because just like any other other word where they might not know what a word means. They might not know what it's taboo word means, especially slurs, especially when you don't use them at home, making them aware of that is really important. So they feel like a little more. They're more knowledgeable, and they're less likely to those slur words, because I kind of understand.

That's kind of the I guess, social justice, secular humanist side of me pulling that piece out, but that's if you're not using slurs at home and also, yeah, And you're not using, this is where the euphemisms become potentially problematic. If you're not using euphemism, unless you're explaining to your child why you're using that. So my, for example, my children, if we're listening or watching a show and they say the N word word referring to black people, I have stopped several times and been like, you don't ever use that word. Here's why you're not using that word, here's what it means to be a white person in the United States and why we don't use that word, and making them aware of that.

0:35:01 Thomas: Check. Yeah.

0:35:35 Thomas: Yeah.

0:35:36 Ashley: There's your opportunity where as opposed to just saying, letting them say the n -word, that's still a slur, it's less offensive, but helping them not just use the euphemism is ideal. And they're going to run into other weird things with taboo language.

0:35:42 Thomas: Well, obviously. Yeah.

0:35:52 Thomas: Wait, sorry. I don'T understand. Helping them not use a euphemism.

0:35:55 Ashley: So helping them don't say like, so I wouldn't let my child say that word, that slur, and I wouldn't want them to say the N-word either as a slur. They were using it as a descriptor to another kid, right? Like, hey, don't say the N word. That's, that's one thing. But if, I'm not wanting them to use slurs at home, even if it's a euphemistic slur.

0:36:02 Thomas: Right. Right. Right. Right. Oh, oh, okay. I guess I was having a hard time even understanding what that would be. So like if, I guess if somebody actually was referring to a black person, but, but saying the N word rather than the actual word. Oh, okay. I didn't even think of that as a possibility. So it's like a weird Schrodinger's racist. That's like, well, you know, I don't want to be crass, but you know like that's, that's a, I literally that possibility didn't occur to me, but now I see what you're saying. Okay.

0:36:20 Ashley: Yeah. Right. Right, right. Well, I mean, I don't think people do that. I, what I'm, I think why, right, right yeah. Them why what we the, don't do that. Euphemisms that way, one way where people, I'm trying to think of how to say this in a way that's, that's more clear, but one the, so Dr. Schmierbeck was talking about euphemism and the benefit of them being less offensive, right?

So using these words are less offensive to other people when you can, And if you're using them as descriptors, one thing that can happen, though, if we get kind of desensitized over time to certain words is we lose the context of those words or we lose, you word's inappropriate. And we might even some of those worlds come back. The N word's not one of them, but an example of that's the word savage.

So that gets used quite a bit, like songs, and that's a derogatory slur toward indigenous people. It's in some research prior to talking to you today, there was an article in 2019 online that was talking about, let's stop using the word savage. It seems to becoming part of the language, but without thinking of it, that that, words come back.

0:36:45 Thomas: But with kids, yeah, it's Like kids start from zero. So it's like, yeah, you do kind of have to educate them about these things. Yeah.

0:37:52 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:37:53 Ashley: It, it really shouldn't just like we shouldn't be saying the N word. I don't think, I don'T think savage should. And there's the film Pocahontas has a whole song about savage. They talk about that derogatorily. So, you know, you can lose that, um, that context. Text. Another way you can lose that is we kind of whitewash other things with taboo words. So you've heard the, you're trying to pick something out, kids might use the eeny, meeny, miny, moe song. You heard that song before? Usually what they say is tiger. That is not what that initial saying was. It was the N word. So I don't let them say that in our house and talk about why.

0:38:32 Thomas: So this is interesting. I of these strike me as like moral claims and philosophical claims. I, is the argument right now? Is it is educating your kids about these words? And you're saying the downside of not doing that is losing this context. Is

0:38:45 Ashley: I think that's right. You Yeah. Lose the context of the word and what the word is, how you use it, when you use that, those problems with using it.

0:38:52 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Know, some of that I'm sure, like, is there consensus on some of this? Like, if it's a word that savage, savage savage existed before Native Americans, right? Isn't it just an adjective or is it exclusively as a derogatory term for Native Americans?

0:39:07 Ashley: So did the N word to just mean black.

0:39:08 Thomas: The N-word? Really?

0:39:11 Ashley: I mean, you, you look back to where it comes from, it means black. Um, of it have changed, um, it became derogatory. So yeah, so over time those things do change. Um.

0:39:22 Thomas: Not worth getting into, I guess, the detailed history of that. But I guess my impression was that there would be that sort of a different category of thing. But OK, like eeny, meeny, miny, moe. That's that's interesting. So I actually didn't know that until I like recently I heard that. Me as kind of, a I know, actually a philosophical point. Like if it has been converted and repurposed into something not offensive, is it problematic to keep around? Is that a is that anything that science is informing, or is this kind of like a social justice you kind of point that do you think about that?

0:39:56 Ashley: I think it's probably a woke Point, right? Like, know better, so should we do better when we realize these things? Um, know, kind of what those things mean. Think where that ties back into taboo words is that we have a lot of euphemisms, swearing and cursing, and all those things that fit under taboo, you know, range from what people would think is not offensive or very low offensive ratings to very high offensive ratings. Euphemism are going to fall somewhere in there, right? Because I can say, damn, I can say, dang, I can say, darn, and different people are going to take that to be different levels of offensiveness. And what some people might say, dang, is okay to use, other people say, don't use that at all in your house. Probably more of the the social justice piece. But from a social, social psychology perspective, social justice is important.

0:39:57 Thomas: Sure. Yeah.

0:40:46 Ashley: Because the words we use do impact, you Dr. Schmierbeck was talking about, how we view other people and how we treat other people. So

0:40:47 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:56 Thomas: Sure, I think the the eeny, meeny, miny, moe thing is interesting because, like said, I literally had no idea the origin of that. And so I think it would be pretty impossible to say that that would impact any actual behavior if someone's saying a word or a phrase and they literally don't know what it means. So that's a curious question. It's like, I do not know how we decide that as a society. Do we decide like, okay, if really knows about this, does it make sense to educate people? So therefore it becomes something bad again, or does it makes more sense to just be like, eh, I think this has just completely changed its cultural meaning into something that really, I I said, I literally didn't even know it had a racist origin. I an interesting philosophical question. I've never thought about.

0:41:14 Ashley: Think have to ask the people who it it refers to, right? Their perspective is, and you're going to get varied responses. And I'm not, entirely sure what that answer is either, obviously, but I grew up, fortunately, I had my great grandmother in my life until I was in my mid twenties, and she would say that song and she she would drop the N-bomb.

0:41:38 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. Really? Wow.

0:41:55 Ashley: So I always grew up knowing that context.

0:41:57 Thomas: Oh yeah, I could could see how that would paint a different picture of it for you, for sure. Okay, yeah, no, I literally had no idea. Like, that's so funny. So, that now that you've said that, I, I definitely see where you're coming from, and that would make a much stronger case for, like, "hey, maybe let's not say this." Gotcha.

0:42:01 Ashley: Yeah.

0:42:13 Ashley: And nobody, explained, they may have, and I'm not recalling because children don't remember a lot of things because children don't pay attention to a lot of things, but I don't recall hearing why you don't use those words. And so again, explaining why we wouldn't use Those words or why words would be offensive is helpful. And it's just words that children use that can be offensive. So just my children, like I said, they don't, children aren't swearing outside of the house frequently, if at all. Rarely had to correct them just a handful of times when they're or younger. They've never been in trouble at school. Well, not never. My oldest got in trouble this past year in sixth grade, and he got in trouble in math class. The reason he got in trouble and math class is the answer to a question was 69. And his friends laughed hysterically. And

0:42:18 Thomas: And

0:43:02 Ashley: He didn't know why that was funny. Neither did they. They didn't Know either. But my son is very outgoing. And so he just kept that joke. He thought that was the most hilarious. Like he was the center of attention.

0:43:05 Thomas: He gets in trouble yeah oh my god I can so relate to this. I, that was when I literally, I had the same thing. I was in like seventh grade. I was like, people seem to laugh at this. I have no fucking idea what they're talking about, but all right.

0:43:18 Ashley: Yeah. So it was that. And then I think, and so I got a note from the teacher about that. So we talked about what that was and age appropriate terms. Like I wasn't, we we were just basically what that is. And was like, I don't know. That was, but then he got in trouble a week later for saying, because the answer was 420. And again, and everybody was laughing. None of them knew what that was.

0:43:35 Thomas: Sure.

0:43:44 Thomas: He's like, mom, what are all the numbers? God damn it. This happened again. Can you just tell me all the bad numbers? Jesus.

0:43:48 Ashley: So point B, my husband and I aren't saying that in front of our kids. So that's why they're not hearing that. And so when you don't use those words and explain it, then they're going to potentially use it like my son did and get in trouble for it. Not saying that if you say it, they're never going to use it. But my my children are angels, obviously. So they never do anything wrong, but yeah. So point being like we model all these other words, but I'm not modeling. I and I would be completely inappropriate for me to be talking in front of my children.

0:43:58 Thomas: Right, right, right. Right, Right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, yeah. Okay. So let's get, let's see if we can get back to the broader storyline here. You see a bit of a parallel, it's almost like, um, education in a way when it comes to the, not even just talking about 69, but just any of these swear words, the analogy in my mind being, I think a lot of conservatives think that if we just don't talk about sex in any way to our kids, that they'll just not know about it and they'll just like, they'll never have premarital sex because they'll know, no one, no one will tell them, they'll never know.

And then what, what really happens is that's terrible because they aren't learning, you, they aren't earning a lot of things you need to learn. And they're still, you, in sex acts because they're human beings. So, and do you see an analogy there where it's like, just not at all talking about these bad words doesn't really solve the problem because you may, they may need to know, like knowledge is power. Like they may needs to know the history and the meanings of some of these things just operate in the world better.

0:44:34 Ashley: Yep.

0:45:19 Ashley: No, I think there's definitely parallels to the, the sex positive movement, which terrifies conservatives to hear, because I think they're assuming we're like our children how to have sex or something strange like that. But, you children the proper terminology for their bodies. So if heaven forbid they were sexually assaulted, they can tell somebody where they were touched and why that wasn't okay to A certain extent, how it made them feel. Same sort of thing here. This has less severe consequences because we're talking about language and settings. Although, you, you know, if they get in trouble, they might understand, okay, well, I said that word and it was out of context, and I shouldn't have done that, and hopefully not feel terrible and confused because they didn't know what the word meant. Right.

0:45:38 Thomas: Right. Right.

0:46:03 Thomas: So, So but guess I'm wondering, then, if the claim is swear around your kids, maybe I I was expecting some sort of study or something. But if if that that's hasn't been studied, then I'm wondering if maybe the claim is, so far, it's more just like educating your kids about swear words. I'm not sure that I've been given carte blanche to, say what, to curse around my fucking kids all the time, you know, just say whatever I want. Going, hmm, okay.

0:46:25 Ashley: The thing is not to, not to be concerned with censoring your language is what I would say, because there, there's a lot of evidence how way that children learn language is by modeling and they're going to learn this language through modeling. So they're going to learn when and where to use that language in that form. A book by Benjamin Bergen from the University of California, San Diego, What the F, What Swearing Reveals About Our Language, Our Brains, and Ourselves. And that's much more recent. It was 2016, maybe. It doesn't have, it doesn't have a study of swearing in front of your children and their outcomes. But there are examples from around the world about different types of swears. That might have some additional kind if people are interested in that topic in a little more detail. He's got some more, you cultural perspectives. Yeah, there's not not one study where they've cursed in front of children, study them for time, right?

0:47:24 Ashley: You can't do that with any kind of parenting. It's like the same issue with, I don't, I think this was on Dear Old Dads, but the issue of spanking, like you can retroactively Ask people, but they know it's something they're not supposed to be doing, you might not get the best responses. So the spanking spanking study is one where we can get a lot of people responding to it because it's a lot of people view spanking as okay for a punishment for children. Whereas swearing in front of your children, people pretty uniformly don't view that as okay. So that's a little harder to get people to say they did that around their children and to study that long-term, if that makes sense. It's kind of like in our country, it's hard to get data on what pregnant women do regarding drug use and alcohol

0:47:23 Thomas: Yeah, I guess you can't really do that, huh? Right, right, yeah,

0:48:13 Ashley: Use. But in where that's more acceptable, they can get some data on that because people will be more likely to self -report. But, yeah, it is hard to give. It is hard get that. So what we have are studies showing that there is a whole bunch of literature on children learning through observing parents. And that language is learned that way. That children swear, and they'll use words they don't hear at home. And they do that as young as one.

0:48:13 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Apparently use slurs no one's ever heard of, so yeah.

0:48:47 Ashley: Slurs from the time. Yeah, slurs we're not hearing as often now. They do That and there's parts of your brain tied to it. So it's something that's going to happen. And if you want to avoid your child using those words, don't just say that word is bad, but I guess give them context. If you in front of them, explaining it would be important to avoid them using it in the future, if that makes sense.

0:49:11 Thomas: So you don't think if around my kids, it like you don'T think they're going to be using those words anymore than,

0:49:18 Ashley: Use it less than other kids. They'll use it the same way you do. So they're not going to to use it anymore or less.

0:49:25 Thomas: That require explaining why using them or the context or you're just saying they pick it up through your behavior?

0:49:31 Ashley: They pick it up through your behavior. Yeah. They pick up the words too, which is why if you're not using slurs at home, that's where it kind of circles back to. You'd have to explain what the slur was for them to understand why it's not appropriate to use. Like if they come home using a slur or you hear them with their friends saying it, explaining why that's problematic, that is where that would come them in, but otherwise they're just going to pick up on what you say. And since taboo language is really creative, you going to PICK UP on that. So my husband says fuck balls a lot, which is why my child screamed fuck balls in the middle of a amusement park, because that's a weird combination of words that he'd heard in our house. And so we had to have that talk about why we don't say that in an amusement park.

0:49:44 Thomas: But Is that not a counterexample then? You're not worried about the fact that that happened, or can heartily recommend saying fuck balls instead of your kids still despite this incident do

0:50:23 Ashley: Mean, it's one incident. He's not saying like, when you talk to people about this, I think they're afraid that they're gonna going to say it all the time. Like now that's just going to be, he's going to use it all the time? He doesn't. He used it there. He was trying to be funny. Was with us and our family. He wasn't at school where it wouldn't be appropriate to use it. So he's using it in the appropriate context. Theoretically, it's just that we're not at home. We're out in public. Yeah, you're with your family, but we're still in a public public setting. So that's not where you would use that.

0:50:29 Thomas: You think there's an age where this matters though, because we did, we already mentioned, I think there is that age where the kids are more just mimics, and so possibly having them have some words in their repertoire just from, uh, saying them when they don't maybe have that awareness to moderate their behavior at all. So is there like a minimum age where we should not do that? And then maybe it's a little like more acceptable once they can at least understand language enough to moderate their behavior in different settings.

0:51:31 Ashley: Mimics, but they don't also don't have a very large vocabulary, and that the observational study I mentioned, those kids were using words that weren't in the house, they're using words like they've heard other kids use, but then they don't come home and use them, so it's a weird situation, right, they're out using it around peers but not at home, yes.

0:51:51 Thomas: I have to imagine it varies by age a lot, don't you think? I mean, there's no way the one -year -olds were using those made -up slurs that I swear don't exist.

0:51:57 Ashley: You Can look them up, they do exist. I had to look a couple of them up though, when I, when I came across this several years ago, because I also had the same reaction, I was like, what is that word, um, by kids. So, you know, kids really, when we're talking like preschool, kindergarten and younger, if they're using taboo words, what, how, no matter how offensive, it's usually body functions, right? They're saying fart, they're saying poop, they're seeing things like that, right, like that's What's Funny to Them.

0:52:28 Thomas: My kids have gotten to the point where they're inventing songs with these things in them. Phoebe was regaling. She was just crooning with all the different body parts last night in the bathtub. And I was like, did I make this happen? Probably. I'm sure I probably made this happen.

0:52:32 Ashley: Yes. Well, you sang in front of her with that exact song, right? She's just mimicking that song. Yeah, I mean, so there they use certain words, but we find by age about 11, they start using, they started getting more creative. They really swear a lot more around their peer group than they did when they were younger. Because again, that's the age where they start to really, they're kind of branching out to their own identity with their peers.

0:53:07 Thomas: Yeah, that shows how cool you are. Yeah. If you can use all the swear words.

0:53:09 Ashley: Yeah, how cool you are. And you know, my son was really cool for knowing 69 and 420, but he didn't know it. But he was cool for that moment in that math class. This is the king of the castle for a week. But yeah, it varies by age for sure. Helpful for people because just at least throw out there is science, you supporting language development and that, kids you have to, learn these words and saying it's just a bad word isn't a way to teach them what the word means. Like you need to explain it. You know, what, what does that word mean?

0:53:41 Thomas: Yeah, right.

0:53:42 Ashley: At least in a little detail, instead of just saying it is bad, because we also know that kids hear words bad, they are going to think it is funny to say it, right? Because that that is fun to to get your parents irritated about things or other people going about things so yeah

0:53:51 Thomas: Yeah. I really I really think the analogy to sex education makes a lot of sense to me. So if I guess I guess my main takeaway has been that, you things like this doesn't work. You is that right? Does That consistent with what you're saying?

0:54:10 Ashley: Right. That's the analogy that I use in the classroom when we talk about this with my child development class is that, yeah, sex positive parenting, you're giving them the language, you're telling them what the things are. With taboo language, it's the same thing. And context is important. So giving them that knowledge is really important and really helpful for them moving forward.

0:54:33 Thomas: All Well, Dr. Scolaro, thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate it. And fucking go fuck yourself. No, that's not. Never mind.

0:54:34 Ashley: Yeah, Well, thanks for fucking having me on here. I appreciate it.

0:54:45 Thomas: Fuck yeah. Woo.

0:54:48 Ashley: Yep, I've kind of hidden in a closet, so hopefully it doesn't come up very often.

0:55:11 Thomas: Be perfectly still and don't move at all in any way it's easy easy to do uh okay so

0:55:13 Ashley: Yeah, I'm trying.