DOD70: Let's Talk About the Jonah Hill Texts

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's mine, all mine. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:37 Eli: Hello, sir!

0:00:34 Thomas: This time, the is actually a really creepy, horrible thing, but Tom made it sound like less sinister. That's interesting.

0:00:47 Tom: I don't know how to make... I didn't know what else... I was going to write a My Precious joke, but it didn't. It didn't, yeah. You

0:00:50 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Hey, we just recorded a super awesome, fun Q &A for patrons only for the bonus for July. Lie. So a lot of good stuff in there. Cause I'll be honest. Sometimes I forget where I am. And so I definitely included stuff that was like, oh, that was meant for everybody, but sorry, I forgot where I was. So you got to go check it out. Patreon.com/ Dear Old Dads in

0:01:14 Tom: The patrons patron, get a lot for this show. They really do. Cause they all, they can only get the, the patron only episodes where they get to ask questions and have their questions answered, but they also, it's say, we don't rush these things. We don't brush these things, but they also don't have to listen to the auto ads.

0:01:22 Thomas: Six to eight months. Yeah. It's a government job.

0:01:32 Eli: Worst thing about our show.

0:01:34 Thomas: That's all. Wow. Wow. That's all he has today. Eli. Okay.

0:01:34 Tom: The Eli, I'm used to this. I'm use to this like string of poetic hyperbole about how awful the auto ads are. So forgive me.

0:01:40 Thomas: Yeah. Diatribe.

0:01:45 Eli: You know, I was pausing for some agreement, for some yesing, and then there was such a an offended silence that I would take on the fucking

0:01:55 Tom: We've lost the vibe, guys. We've lost the Vibe is

0:01:58 Eli: Portuguese ads for Verizon that bombard my phone I

0:02:00 Thomas: No, we were just waiting for a punchline. Usually you got something. I don't know.

0:02:03 Tom: Gone. It's just now. Hey, should I pick up milk on the way home to podcast? That's all that's left of it.

0:02:09 Eli: A silent, angry, anti-auto ad screen, but no, it's true, it's the worst thing about our show is the auto ads, and you can get rid of it and enjoy what many would call a podcast without them. Yes, yes, unlike the radio, you know, that giant soda machine your great-grandfather sat in front of and learned to hate Japanese. Yes, you do not need to be exposed to that ad -filled experience. You can listen to a podcast that goes from beginning to the end for as little as a dollar over at patreon.com/dearolddads. I need to find like what unearthed, earth slug is making the money from the auto ads. Because, and no offense, because we're grateful for you all listening to them. We're getting paid a penny every time you hear an auto ad. The people who bought the ads, they paid $84 billion for

0:02:31 Tom: Oh, my God.

0:03:04 Thomas: That's true,

0:03:04 Eli: You to hear about fucking Staples in between breaths on our show. So somewhere in the earth, there is Smaug the Dragon sitting on all the auto ad money. Hey, Dragon. Stop.

0:03:05 Tom: True Hey,

0:03:09 Thomas: Yeah. patreon.com. So, one thing I didn't forget to leave for everybody is a Hank update. I've been meaning to do a Hank, update Hank for a while, I'm glad I kept forgetting, because now I've got a full update. It's not that interesting a the story. I won't take too long on it, but, uh, you recall, the kids left the door open, which they do frequently. And it was like a back door that I, you know, couldn't, didn't really see.

I didn't notice, you for a while until after we put them to bed. Uh, one fateful night over a month ago and it was open. I see the three cats. Um, know, we have four, but like, you Know, one of them, I don't know, didn'T give a shit or something, but I saw three of them like kind of sneaking out. They do the, like, are are we, are we free? Can we, are we allowed to, can we leave?

You know, like they do that first first little like out a little bit. And then I came over and two of them were like, no, I wasn't doing anything. Nothing, nothing. And they run back in. And then Hank, of course, was the one who stayed out and was like, I think I'll, I don't think I will. I'll leave. So he left. And I thought he was happier. He hates the dog. Thought like just be happier out there. We didn't see him for a long time.

And then we had no idea what happened to him. We were, you with, with neighbors and hey, have you seen something there? There was a few people who said they might've saw him, but we're like, all right, he might've just fucking peace the hell out. You know, he must've left. And then a couple of weeks go by and I saw him. He was just like perched out front. Uh, and I was like, oh, that's, there's Hank.

And the minute I go to the door or do anything, he runs away. You Know, he's like, fuck this. But I thought it was interesting that he was back. He looked great at the time. Time. He didn't look all matted or all weird. So I was like, Oh, maybe he's doing fine out there. I still, I tried to get him. Actually, this was the first thing I didn't tell you guys.

Ran off and he ran into this giant like bush that he could hide in that, that'd you be hard to get to him. So, I go and I get a can of wet food and I'm like, let's see if I can get this fucker. So. I open the wet food. I slowly like, you have to be motionless for four to six days for a cat like that to come, you know, like come see you.

And eventually he came and started eating the food and he got a little bit closer, a little Bit closer. And I was like, well, I'm going to, I have this cat. This is, he is mine. This Is easy. I go and I grab his neck and he fucking flipped into another dimension and

0:05:27 Thomas: Got out of my grip. I can't even explain how baffled I was. Cause I, you Know, I've been wrangling cats all a long time. I know, I know my way around cats, but part of it is Hank is incredibly sleek. He's like a really skinny cat and he just got out like so fast. And then of course he was never going to make that mistake again. So I blew, I blew my one chance. This was a couple of weeks ago. I was like, fuck, I flew it. And then, but still I was Like, yeah, maybe he's better off. So then he disappears for another few weeks and I was like, maybe He's really insulted by that time. I fucking grabbed him. He's never going To come back. I don't know. Um, but then he showed up again and this time.

It was at, it was at night and I saw him just lounging out you know, by the front door. It's like, okay. Uh, thing. I opened the door, he runs away. I get a can of wet food and I was like, I'll just leave it for him. Whatever. Maybe he just needs some food. Maybe he's happy. I won't try to catch him, whatever. So I leave it and, uh, he eats it, you know? He eats it.

And I, I tried to go out just to see if he'd, you know, accept some petting or anything, but he's like nope, not, fuck that. The minute I go out, I let him have his food and then he

0:05:26 Tom: Uh is

0:06:25 Thomas: Just peaced out.

0:06:25 Tom: He typically an affectionate cat like in the house? Okay.

0:06:27 Thomas: Always been a weird one where he's, stays away from people most of the day and then like at night he would come just not leave us alone, you know? He'd like want to get in his his time of like nuzzling. It's weird. He's a, he's kind of a combo cat, you know? Um, I couldn't catch him, but then the next day the kids said they saw him. I was like, oh, that's weird. Um, still hanging out. And that night he was there, and like, he just seemed to be around more. And um, I think it was like, like the next night, um, see him at the back door and he's right at the glass. I was like, oh shit.

And time, what I've done is I've slowly fed him enough times that he's like, he gets the connection again. Like, oh yeah, I used to have a house where food was there, you know? And so he's at the backdoor and he is just like, um, sir, garcon, can I have my cat food? Essentially. Um, and the funny thing was, it's a glass backdoor door and it's right by, he could actually see where the cat food, like food, like up in a shelf that was visible.

So I go to get it and I see him doing the meow behind the glass where he can't hear it. He's like, you know, like his mouth is going all

0:06:28 Tom: Okay right

0:07:26 Thomas: Wide, you know? And so I was like, okay, I think he wants his food. So, I opened the door and he looks bad. Like at this point, you I Know, he all of a sudden went from like, oh, he looked fine to like, he was covered in those, stickers. You What do you call this? Like burrs or whatever, just all those kinds of things.

0:07:39 Eli: Yeah.

0:07:40 Thomas: Yeah. Like those, but, but I feel like burrs are the more serious, like sharp pointy ones. These are, we have these little fuckers that are just these tiny balls thing that just sticks in the cat. There's a million of them. I don't know. Anyway. He was covered in those. And I could tell, like, cause I was able to get close to him. He was skinny as fuck. Like he, he hadn't been eating. It seems, it turns out.

Um, so at that point I was like, I think I need to try to get this cat, because he's not, if he's not eating and he looks like shit, like this is probably not good. And so, I, cartoon character slowly, like I gave him the wet food, I put it out there, and I slowly pulled it back an inch at a time. And he was so hungry he didn't even notice, and I pulled it.

And this time I wasn't gonna fucking, I wasn't gonna pull the trigger early. I was, I'm gonna make sure he's in my goddamn bedroom room before I, you know, do anything. So he doesn't flip out of it. So I pull him in, pull him in. I get them all the way in the house and I closed the door and I got Hank back, and

0:07:39 Tom: Like burrs yeah uh-huh

0:08:31 Thomas: He, yeah, he, I felt bad because as much as I thought he was doing better, it turns out, I just think he wasn't eating. I think he's such a scaredy cat. He didn't get eaten. He Didn't get run over, you know?

0:08:31 Tom: That's great. Oh,

0:08:43 Thomas: But I think that's cause he probably just hides all fucking day. And so, um, we took him back and then I've slowly nursed him back to health in our room. You looks better already. It's been like two days, I think three days. And so Hank's back. And what we're going to do is we're gonna try to just give him our room to be in. I think he just needs space. Like his own space with the dog and everything. So that's what we're trying to do. We'll see if there's no way I can guarantee the cat, the kids won't let him out again, but Hank is back everybody back to four cats.

0:08:42 Tom: Right that's right that, that, that is great news. I was, I was really hopeful. Full I've heard similar stories many times in the past, book house cats, indoor cats, that get out, and they just like, weeks will go by, and then they'll just be like, yeah, I've been here the whole time. Like they're just like, I I went six inches away, but I'm a cat, so you didn't fucking see it, yeah.

0:09:10 Eli: Yeah.

0:09:23 Thomas: Yeah. That's the funny thing. Know On one hand, I want to be like, oh, I bet he had his little knapsack thing over his shoulder, like the red, you know, bandana, whatever that thing. I bet you had that and he probably went to, you know, Wyoming.

0:09:37 Tom: Right yeah just living the hobo life, he's like he's hopping up on trains and shit. He could play the harmonica now, it's right

0:09:40 Eli: Yeah, I made some friends.

0:09:41 Thomas: Yeah, hitchhiking. Was probably just in a fucking bush two inches from the house. Like he probably honestly didn't even move. And you're like, well, that was a waste of that opportunity. Go see the world, man. Travel abroad.

0:09:51 Tom: Right. Well, Thomas, your cat is your possession and is back under the control of yourself and your family. So that leads us to our topic for the day, which is a little less parenting, a little more partnering, I guess, relationship stuff. And you sent us something. It looks like it was text messages between two celebrity people, Jonah Hill and someone else. I don't remember.

0:09:59 Thomas: Ah, here we go.

0:10:10 Thomas: Relationshipy, yeah. Yeah oh tom we won't try to make tom explain anything celebrity anything I

0:10:23 Tom: I don'T know who these fucking people are. I didn't, I DON'T even know who Jonah Hill is. Like, I think he's a singer, but I don't know.

0:10:28 Thomas: Wow Oh, I know. That's the one thing he isn't.

0:10:32 Tom: He not a singer? Was I wrong? What the fuck is a Jonah Hill then? Is he an actor?

0:10:33 Thomas: You're wrong. He's not a singer. No. You don't watch movies, huh? I forgot. Yeah. He is an actor.

0:10:38 Tom: I really don't like movies. No, I

0:10:40 Thomas: Yeah, you didn't watch the big. No, he is not in the big short. He Is in the other. He IS in the baseball one of that guy and money ball.

0:10:46 Eli: Moneyball.

0:10:44 Tom: See the big short. Yeah. When I say I don't watch movies, what I, what I mean is like, like if Haley puts one on, I watch it and that's the end of that story. I don'T like, I like doing everyone's a critic for years, ruined movies for me. I used to love them. Now I hate them. I donT like watching movies. I will never, not never, but rarely of my own accord.

0:10:47 Thomas: Yeah yeah.

0:11:05 Tom: While I sit down and be like, Oh, a movie. That sounds great.

0:11:04 Thomas: Well, I am absolutely not a celebrity news guy. I don't give a shit about it, but I do surf Reddit and I like it because, you know, if there is something significant, significant enough that a lot of people are talking about it, then I'll see it because it'll be on the front page. And this was on the Front Page. And it was like, it's what it's that feeling that we've had for, you know, going on however many years since Me Too of like, oh, here it is another one, you Know, and it was Jonah Hill. And I don't you I'm long past the point where I'm surprised by anything. But it was one of those words like what the fuck's going on. So I look at it and his ex had posted a bunch of their messages.

And boy, it didn't look good. It looks looks bad to me. Um, but I thought it was, this is not a like, Hey, let's just be mad at a celebrity. I don't care about that. I mean, I, I uh, you know, I have my judgments on the situation, butI thought itwas a good thing to talk about in general. Uh, and actually I think it will be useful to go into some of the specifics. Um not the point is like we're here to cancel Jonah Hill.

It's like, I think it is important that men talk about these things. I really do because, Tom, um, I don't want to say I'm going to call you you out per se, but your reaction to this, if you don't mind, my saying was like, Oh, I hate that I've even learned about a celebrity, anything, anybody, anybody's texts. And I totally understand it. Totally get it. But I saved it for the show. Cause I thought it would be interesting for us to talk about Tom.

0:11:18 Tom: Right. Yeah. Yeah, sure.

0:12:18 Thomas: My thought was, I don't know how else this gets talked about. Like don't talk about behind closed doors, how we are with our partners much, like, especially historically think about going back into the fucking fifties or talks behind closed door, how they act with their partners and vice versa. It's very private thing. And woman I've talked to about this or have seen their reaction has all been like, yeah, this is, we all knew, like people, women see those messages and they're like, they know what this fucking is. Like this happens. But I think as guys, we don't see that side of men much, you our male friends, and I guarantee you, we probably have some who are kind of shitty behind closed doors to their partners. We don't See them. We don'T see that. They don'T show it to us. You because They, why would they? I thought it was an interesting chance to at least look at that.

0:12:28 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I think so, and I think, you know, like, like in the in the message exchange that we had, as like, because, like, I don't want to read someone else's text messages, I really don't, and I don't want to write someone else's text messages about their personal relationship as posted on social media, as this fucking horrible scroll over shit, it's just so deeply unpleasant. But but the issues are worth talking about. And so, like, if the only way that we get to the issues is that I have to read something that to me feels like both a violation of privacy and just of my fucking business.

0:13:25 Thomas: Yeah. For Sure.

0:13:37 Tom: You Your point is exactly right that we don't hear about this stuff, like we just don't hear about it. I strongly suspect that this type of abusive possessiveness is very, very, very common and, like you said, I think women will be like, yeah, of fucking course it is. And like for me, I just, something I never would have thought of. Right. I just know it's one of those, like, it's one of those male privileges that you just don't have to think about because it doesn't interact with you directly the same way.

0:14:08 Thomas: Yeah, we won't read all the messages or anything, but it, it's a bunch of messages between Jonah Hill and his, I guess, girlfriend or ex-girlfriend from maybe about a year old that show him, you know, saying my boundaries are that I can't be with someone who posts pictures of themselves with a bathing suit on Insta. And, you know, girl apparently is a surfer, I think professionally. I haven't even looked into it.

It doesn't really matter to me to the issues, but I think it does matter to some people to the issue. But is someone who I believe is surfers, surfs for her actual job and maybe models a little bit. And apparently Jonah Hill got with that person. He's, I don't know, 40, and she's 25, something like that. He got with her apparently, and then decided everything she was already doing was was wrong.

Like, he can't be with someone who would surf and then post pictures of her surfing, the thing she does for a living because she's in a bathing suit. And he couched it in these terms that sound like therapy talk, you know, like, oh, my boundaries are that I can't,

0:15:03 Tom: Yeah.

0:15:04 Thomas: I can be with, you Know, a total slut who would fucking do any of this stuff. Not literally. Well, not that far off of that, but not literally that. And I, it is so unbelievably clear to me how like shitty and possessive this is. I mean, the fact that like saying, he's oh, I just can't be with someone like this. Oh, I Just Can't Be With Someone Like This. And he's trying to like make it seem like this thing where it's a healthy boundary he is setting, but he's not doing that. This is repeated

0:14:57 Eli: Yeah and yeah

0:15:28 Tom: Yeah.

0:15:28 Thomas: Threatening to leave or threatening to not be with something like this or someone in that way is not a healthy Boundary Setting to Just first off, go

0:15:35 Tom: Want to point out, how like, incredibly disingenuous that behavior is from the beginning. Because he is not, what he's not saying is, "we are breaking up, and I'm, I'm, I just, this, this relationship doesn't work for me, we're breaking up." This he's doing instead is, is leveraging her to change her behavior, because, like, it would be one thing, it would be a shitty reason to break up, right, but you can break up for any reason you want, you know, you'd break up with somebody because you don't like the way they squeeze a ketchup bottle, who gives a shit, right?

0:15:41 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

0:16:04 Tom: No one's required to be in a relationship or justify why they're not, so like, he's not actually saying, "These are my boundaries," what he's saying is, "Change your behavior." It's, this is laying out a, yeah, it's laying out a pattern, right? It's laying out a pattern of behavior, which if you don't adjust, then you are going to suffer consequences relationally as a result. And that's fucking bullshit, right. Like you can be like, look, this doesn't work for me. I'm sorry. You know, go your way. I'll go mine. That, okay, fine. Maybe you're an asshole. Maybe it's not a good reason to break up. We don't have to have good reasons to break up. That's not at all what he's doing. These are, so I'm saying, like, these are are not boundaries and they never were.

0:16:14 Thomas: Or else. Yeah, it's ultimatums. Yes, yeah,

0:16:33 Eli: Right but if right and and And I also think it's like really important, one, because I know the audience we're speaking to, right? And something that I have discovered in my life among, I'm going to go ahead and say liberal men, right, because we tend to be like uber liberal in an uber literal community, is that there is a phenomenon of sort of like woke fuckboys who use therapy language and social justice language around abusive behavior, um, much so that it kind of becomes a meme around women.

0:17:16 Tom: Right.

0:17:16 Eli: You know, one of the things, um, uh, a singer who I really like on TikTok, whose name I'm not going to remember, uh, she has a song called "We Can Talk About It After You Apologize," which is all about how, like, we can talked about how sad it made you to be abusive after you apologize for being abusive.

0:17:06 Thomas: Hmm, yeah. Oh, that's great.

0:17:30 Tom: Yeah.

0:17:33 Eli: And it's a very, very funny song. I recommend people look- you'll see it, I'm sure, if you look it up. But this is a real problem for the modern man, right? The way, is this notion that these tools are out there, and these tools are out there about representing yourself emotionally, they're about, they're getting what you need and communicating clearly, but they can also be used to manipulate. Manipulate, um, if you were not actually interested in compromise with your partner and having a conversation with your parter, if you're just trying a new tactic to get what you want, it's just as abusive as the guy punching a hole in the plaster, right, you're ju- you're just using words instead of throwing chairs, right, and obviously physical violence is different than emotional violence. But I will say, as someone who has been on the receiving end of this kind of abuse, where someone doesn't like a thing you say or do, and instead of just saying, "I didn't like that, I'm not listening anymore," they say, "This is abusive," or "You're a racist,"

0:17:33 Thomas: Yeah yeah absolutely

0:18:11 Tom: Man, yep. Right. Yep.

0:18:43 Eli: Or "You are this," or "that," because those are big scary words, and they know you'll listen when they say big scary words, it's important to recognize that this is its own form of abuse, right, and that as men, um, we feel that by being communicative in this new modern way, we can do no wrong, but, but actually, we still need to hold ourselves to the same level of emotional account as we would if we were punching holes in walls.

0:19:10 Thomas: Yeah

0:19:10 Tom: And There's this strong, in embedded in that language, when I, when I read that sort of language, when I look at some of the same shit that you guys are talking about, when I find it online, when I read through, like, you, like the relationship advice subreddit and stuff, which I troll specifically to find topics sometimes for, for this show, by the way, like when I look through that stuff, I see a lot of this language, and I always think back, like, there is a pervasive and wrongheaded sense that I think is absolutely a form of the kind of abuse that Eli is talking about, where people will basically be like, "If you ever make me feel bad, if I ever feel bad in this relationship, you are at fault." And, and that is verboten, as if, if a good relationship never makes anyone else feel bad, and that is nonsense.

Great relationships may challenge who we are, great relationships make us feel bad, we should feel bad if we make mistakes, right, but, like, we should be made to feel bad, it often does, in the process of growing into better people, but there's this, this, like, really harsh pushback, and I, I see it, fucking a hundred times more from men than from women, where it's like, oh, you know, like, it's always like some woman asking some question on Reddit or something where it's like, oh, like, we had this fight, and like, the guy is totally in the fucking wrong in this crazy, like, horrible way, and then he turns it around with this fucking psychobabble bullshit language, where now she's like, "But then, you know, now I feel like I'm invalidating his, his feelings." And it's like, yeah,

0:19:25 Thomas: Yeah yeah

0:19:53 Eli: No.

0:20:42 Tom: But he feels bad for being a shithead. He should feel bad for being, you should feel mad when you do bad. You should. That's part of growing. If you don't feel bad, then you, there's no impetus toward change, but

0:20:58 Thomas: If you're prioritizing your feelings of how it feels to be called out as a bad person, then that's bad. I think we should. So that, that, I think that's pretty well established. I did see someone, um, there actually were some really good comments, uh, after a while. Um, cause they, you know, the good ones get upvoted and one of them talked about like, yeah, that's definitely a thing, but it's not a new problem. Someone cited something from like 2003 when a book came out that had some, some of the same kind of therapy language. And it was, you Know, people were weaponizing it back then to, you KNOW, people, People, narcissists or abusers are going to find whatever they can. Shouldn't You know, be an indictment of therapy or the language, you know, like some of these concepts at all.

0:21:32 Eli: Definitely. Definitely. Not.

0:21:35 Thomas: Yeah.

0:21:35 Eli: No, oh.

0:21:35 Thomas: Yeah. I just wanted to point that out. And then I think, I also don't believe, this is something that I think would be an interesting topic. I don't think you can be just agnostic about what these quote unquote boundaries are. I actually think it matters what they are. I think that on one hand, I with like, at you will employment in terms of relationships. I get it. You know, I get that. But I actually do think it matters what the boundaries are. Are. You for one, we're we already, already acknowledging this isn't setting boundaries. This is setting ultimatums and changing someone's behavior. But then, you know, it shifts to the topic of like, oh, well, but is it okay to be bothered by someone or partner posting pictures like that or surfing with men?

0:22:11 Eli: I know.

0:22:12 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And no, but I also see some people who are like, look, if that's between consenting adults, ifthat's something you set up as in your relationship and that's It's a boundary that you actually set up in a healthy way. Yeah, it's fine. And my answer is actually still no. I think there are things, it matters what the boundaries are. I actually think that does matter. It's one thing to say, yeah, I think it's perfectly acceptable, totally acceptable. And Eli, I even wonder, even with your extreme views on this, I think it would be fine as a partner to say, "Hey, I'm not okay if you post nude pictures online," I like, think there's nothing wrong with that, that is a firm line. "I will not be okay with you posting nude pictures online, I'm not cool with that," versus "I'm not okay with you being in a bathing suit around men

0:22:12 Eli: I know. No.

0:22:28 Eli: Yeah.

0:22:56 Tom: Yeah.

0:22:57 Thomas: That are your co -workers No, I'm sorry, that's not, that that's a different fucking thing, there are different categories of things, yeah.

0:22:57 Tom: Yeah. You go, that's, that'S the dress code in this case, right? The dress code for her work work is like, is, is wearing this outfit. Right. So that's, that's the dress code for her work. I, I, like, I agree with, I think you can, like it matters very much where the boundaries are and like, you cannot negotiate a boundary that owns somebody else's body in a way that they do not want to be owned.

0:23:04 Thomas: Yeah. Yes Yeah.

0:23:25 Thomas: You can't be like, my boundary is you make dinner for me every single night on time, it's like, no, come on, yeah. And

0:23:27 Eli: Yeah, right. Exactly.

0:23:31 Tom: Right? That's nonsense. That's, That's, that's fucking nonsense. Sense, I think, like, like to your point, like, like this is why this is a continuum thing for me, and I don't think it is so much for you, Eli, but it's a continuum things for me, like, I think that you, that we are what we are doing very often, when we, as well, every time when we're on social media, we are communicating, like, we are sending out messages to the world about who we are, about what we value, about what kinds of attention we want, and about why we want that attention. There are a lot of embedded messages in everything that we put out into the world for explicitly public consumption. Right. And I think that it's reasonable for a couple to have conversations about where they're comfortable in that space. Some people might be all the way on the Eli side, other people might be on a different side. But like somebody posting a picture of them, him in a bathing suit, that's not an explicitly sexual image, right.

0:24:29 Thomas: By the way, just to add another detail in the message, he says like, "Oh, in a thong bathing suit," whatever. And it actually isn't, like you can, that exaggeration is so, so part of the fucking, it's, know, again, it all comes back to my dad for me, but like, those exaggerated statements are that tactic. Like, that's a way these people, he didn't let me surf with men.

0:24:45 Eli: Thomas's dad never let him wear a thong bathing suit.

0:24:49 Tom: Thomas. Thomas.

0:24:48 Thomas: Yeah. Uh,

0:24:51 Tom: In a thong just walking around, dad?

0:24:52 Eli: For. Yeah now.

0:24:53 Tom: It's not a thorn, right?

0:24:53 Thomas: No, the psychological bullying tactics, they are remarkably similar. Like, you know, there's not that many of them, you know, like they're all, they're all in common for a lot of this stuff.

0:24:59 Eli: Yeah it's all the same.

0:25:02 Thomas: And those exaggerated statements, they put you on the defensive then you're backpedaling. Oh, I'm no, it's not, it'S not a thong. What are you talking? You know, itS it'S bunch of little interactions like that, that are just designed to frustrate you, befuddle you. Go

0:25:14 Eli: Let

0:25:14 Tom: Well, And seen this a million times before, like those intentional little little lies are intended as distractions from the bulk of the conversation, right? Because now, now, because you told a little lie, as a, as an example, I'm going to seize on the thong. We're going to have a back and forth about the thong. Now we're not talking about the issue. That is an intentional, manipulative, semantic game that emotionally abusive people play.

0:25:20 Thomas: Yes. Yeah.

0:25:38 Eli: Right.

0:25:38 Tom: They intentionally put in these little distraction points and they veer the conversation away way from the meat, from what's actually supposed to be conversed about and settled and discussed. They do this shit all the time. And you can, once you recognize it, you can just spot it and call it out. You can just spotted and call it out if you're good at it. And it's important to be able to do that because if you don't, you end up just going down these fucking rabbit holes and you never talk about the item of substance. So that's actually another manipulative tactic, That intentionally wrong detail.

0:25:56 Eli: Right right. And and

0:26:11 Thomas: Yeah, for sure.

0:26:13 Eli: For me. So a couple of factors to this. But the first thing to understand is that the underlying sort of message of this is that my emotions are valid, right, is often the weapon being wielded here. And that is always true. But whether or not they are something for you to deal with or for me to deal With, that's where we draw healthy lines, right? Because what needed to happen, truthfully, is that Jonah, in this case, needed to go to his therapist who he made a Netflix documentary about and go, hey, I got some really shitty hangups. And it would be completely fine to say, man, I am dealing with these emotions and I understand they're not healthy. And where to draw the boundary, right, for me, comes down to the true meanings of consent, right? Because

0:26:23 Tom: Yes.

0:26:24 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Jesus. Yep. Mm

0:26:58 Eli: Consent is not consent unless it's informed and enthusiastic, right. Right. And so that's where we draw those lines. Right. You have couples who have, you insane Amish relationships where they only fuck each other. Awesome. Good for you. Just one flavor of ice cream. But everyone in that situation is

0:26:58 Thomas: -hmm. Um, yeah, no,

0:27:16 Tom: OK, listen. Hey, you raise one barn with me and now I'm Amish. This is fucking ridiculous. All right.

0:27:21 Eli: Informed and enthusiastic. Fuck yeah, I just want to have sex with you. Oh, that sounds awesome. Until we die, until we die. Cool. But like, here's the thing, informed, enthusiastic consent. What's happening in that situation is he is demanding consent that is probably not informed because he's lying and definitely not enthusiastic. Enthusiastic. Right. Which Right.

0:27:30 Thomas: I, yeah.

0:27:46 Tom: Yep. That's exactly right.

0:27:47 Thomas: Imagine if instead of don't post pictures of yourself and don't do all these things that by the way, are totally reasonable things as part of who she was already. And you knew that imagine if instead it was him saying, Hey, my boundary is you have to do this sex act with me, or I'm breaking up with you. Imagine it was a bunch of that exact thing. He's not saying he's saying it's his boundary. He's saying, hey, I just can't be with you unless you do this sex over and over that we would, I think, recognize like, no, you can't fucking do that. I don't care if that's your what you want. You can't like set up these constant, you ultimatums and put your partner through hell saying you must agree to do this thing or else and then call that consent.

0:27:48 Tom: Right. Yep. Yeah.

0:28:02 Eli: Right.

0:28:24 Eli: Consent is not about beating someone down into agreement, it is about finding an enthusiastic and informed agreement, um, and that's really hard, right? Because most men grew up in no-means-no culture, right? And like the way to be woke for most men was like, I have never raped someone. And it's like, yeah, man, you have crawled over that bar, but the truth is the bar needs to be raised much higher to informed, enthusiastic consent. And look, the unspoken part of that is, and the reason why men are so hesitant to talk about it is that if you insist on informed and enthusiastic consent with your partner on all, all the boundaries you draw, sometimes you will be uncomfortable and it will be your discomfort to deal with. Right.

0:28:33 Thomas: Right. Yeah.

0:28:46 Tom: Yep, And I think, and are good ways to have those conversations that are in good faith. And then there are these explicitly bad faith ways to have that same conversation, right? Cause every couple has to negotiate like they're are going to land on that continuum. Like I would be deeply uncomfortable, I think, in a continuum similar to your relationship, Eli, and you would be deep deeply uncomfortable in a continuum in my relationship. And, right?

So you have to be able to have that conversation in a way that doesn't seek to manipulate, but seeks to understand and to be understood. And you do that and you do that in good faith and you don't arrive at a conclusion that works for you both, then you can shake hands and part ways and everybody's amicable and no harm, no foul. But like, that's not what a lot of people do.

What a lot of people do is they try to, to your point, Eli, they try to gain consensus where consensus did not exist. They try to persuade, and by persuading, you are manipulating.

You are absolutely, so it's not, not like, hey, here's how I feel, tell me how you feel, let's see if we arrive at a place where we both feel good about our decision together, that's cool, that's fair, everyone's got to do that, it's part of the, that's part of the process of courting somebody and understanding if you're a match with somebody. But like, if somebody's like, I'm over here, and you're like, well, I'm going to try to drag you over into my worldview, and it's like, well, that's, that's

0:30:38 Eli: Right?

0:30:39 Tom: Not all right, that's not all

0:30:39 Eli: I I'd like to try making up rules and boundaries now that we're in this relationship. And That's, that's, that is unfair. It is manipulative. And another thing that men do, just to speak on the sort of from the sexual anarchy point of view, is that there are a lot of men who use sort of the quote-unquote wokeness of sexual anarchy as a weapon when their partners are uncomfortable, right? And something that liberal men and, you know, what I call the woke man buns, the fuckboys, use as a weapons all the time is that their partner is uncomfortable. They know they're uncomfortable. They do not have the enthusiastic consent to sexual anarchy with their partner, and then they do the, like, well, my position is more woke, thing, which again, like your emotions are valid and you might be right that veganism is smarter or whatever the fuck, but you're still not getting informed enthusiastic consent and you way way way knew that ahead of time, right?

0:31:03 Thomas: Yeah, right, right.

0:30:40 Tom: Right yeah yeah yeah Or, or along similar lines, Eli, I see the same thing on that, on the, on the suit, the ultra woke, like, boy side of things, where they will, they will manipulate somebody into behaviors the other person doesn't want by saying, well, that's just your insecurity, or those are your hang -ups and it's like, no, that's just what somebody wants or doesn't want, like, that's what somebody wants or doesn't want, and it's like, well, now I'm gonna say, like, well, you know, like you're, you're fucking vanilla insecurity bullshit is, and now that's so fucking judgmental. That stuff is, has nothing to do with making sure that you're on the same page with your partner. And it has everything to do with manipulating somebody into agreements that they don't fully consent to. And

0:31:54 Eli: Exactly yeah

0:31:54 Thomas: Right but for The record, Eli and I are allowed to say, "Tom, that's some vanilla bullshit you're into," you we're, we're

0:32:27 Tom: I'm done with being vanilla,

0:32:28 Eli: The Difference is we're not making Tom, fuck us.

0:32:30 Thomas: Not pressuring yeah exactly

0:32:28 Tom: Man. Like that's cool. Like, yeah. I, that's the thing. Like I'll raise my hand. Yeah, man, fucking, I'm fucking Breyers vanilla ice cream. That's fine. Like, if that's not what you want, move along. It's cool. Like we don't like So, but see that too. I see the same thing you're pointing out, Eli. And I see That, that tactic all the time is, is like really weaponized against people to be like, fuck, well, I don't want to be like insecure.

0:32:54 Eli: You don't want to be square.

0:32:55 Tom: I don't want to be like, yeah, like, oh shit. You're just, you know, insecure. I was like, well not, I'm not actually insecure. It's just what I prefer. This is how I, But if you're not strong enough to be able to be comfortable doing that, or to your point, too, if you've already deeply emotionally invested, because a lot of people change the fucking game once somebody's deeply emotionally invest it, then all of a sudden it's like, OK, now that I got you hook, line and emotional sinker, here's who I really am.

0:33:15 Eli: Mm hmm. Yeah.

0:33:21 Tom: Here's how all of the sudden I'm going to come up with a fucking revelation about who I am and what I want that I did not relay to you during the fucking honeymoon period.

0:33:22 Eli: Right, Ed. And even to put it, you know, less insidiously, if someone makes a discovery about themselves, Right, where they realize, hey, I'm not monogamous and I no longer want to be monogamous, maybe while those emotions are totally valid, that's still a thing for you to deal with. Because when you made informed, enthusiastic consent agreements with your partner, you made them along the lines of monogamy, right? Actually one of the problems with the book Ethical Slut. I recommend Ethical Slut to people all the time, but Ethical Slut at least infers that like if tomorrow morning Tom wakes up and he's just like, Haley, don't believe in this monogamy business anymore, he can just start raw dogging the mailman and it's like, that is, that is a very unkind way to treat your partner, raw

0:33:35 Thomas: Yeah.

0:34:17 Tom: Yeah.

0:34:13 Thomas: This is a straw man I see, and I, it's important, one of the one thing that I I really want to do and I think is important is clarifying a lot of things that people. Yeah, let me go off on that for an hour. No, there are a lot of things that people think are part of like being woke or being progressive that aren't, and they blame wokeness itself for it when it's not what it is.

There are people on the right who think that if you are in a monogamous, straight, hetero, you know, marriage, and one day a partner comes out and as trans, they think that we think you have, okay, you have to stay with them, you married the person, you have, no, you don't have to, that's not part of the quote-unquote woke agenda, there, the topic, there are people, you can have revelations about yourself, or you can be closeted, or, you know, that happens in our society, people are closeted for different reasons, they come to terms with themselves for different regions, that's something you have a right to do.

And it's an unfortunate situation that you weren't able to be honest about yourself, either to yourself or to your partner, or both, that's unfortunate. But you have the right to come out on your own terms when you want to, but your partner also has every right to be like, oh, well, I, I'm, I'm not gay, like, I just am, you know, I'm actually hetero, so, you know, if, if, you know, you're coming out, I celebrate what you're doing, but I'm, this isn't the relationship that, that's completely fine. I see that cited all the time, is like, that's a big problem with being on the left, is you'd be forced to just stay.

0:34:24 Eli: Dog the mailman

0:34:38 Tom: Yeah.

0:35:47 Eli: Force

0:35:47 Thomas: Now you have to be gay. Yeah. It's like, no, you don't have to to be

0:35:47 Eli: It's So Funny It's So Funny, the panic you can trap right wingers into if you have a basic conversation about trans right, no matter what it is, you can be like, there's an 11 year old who wants to play soccer and she loves it more than anything in the world, but she happens to be trans, and they'll be like, so you want to force a dick into my mouth? And you're just like, oh, oh, okay. Do you want me to describe this slower for you? Cause I can tell what's going on.

Not to make too light a situation of this, cause I know that's a whole other kettle of fish, but I did do have a friend whose lady friend started using she, they pronouns this year, and it all worked out, but like, it took some adjustment for him, right? It was conversations, it was dialogue, and sort of a gathering of the friends took place to sort of discuss what he was going to do and who he was gonna talk to, and everything worked out in the best of possible ways. But I had a little bit of a weird moment in the conversation because he was like, he was like, oh man, I mean, what would you do? And I'd be like, I'd suck the fuck out of of that dick, I have

0:36:05 Thomas: Someone's Yeah

0:36:47 Eli: No idea what you're doing, you sound like a real whiner to me, I don't know what's going on I'm gonna go get a drink at the bar, this fucking baby over here can't, can't suck a dick

0:36:52 Tom: Yeah,

0:36:59 Thomas: I People try to poke holes in the, like, you our model of enthusiastic, enthusiastic consent and all that by using an example of not consent, like a forced, like, oh yeah, the problem with your views is if your wife turned out to be trans, you'd have to suck that dick. It's like, no, we actually firmly believe no one has to have sex with someone that they don't want to. That's a firm, like that always applies. And it's a, it would be a shit situation. It'd be, it'd be really tough, you know, to figure out what to do if you were put put into that place, maybe it is something where, you know, that would be okay to move forward with you. Maybe it wouldn't be, but I just wanted to point that out because it is something that people, I think even people like in the middle think that that's a thing people on the far left believe. And it's just not like,

0:37:07 Tom: Right.

0:37:17 Eli: And I'll add this, is that if you are using woke language but aren't coming from a genuine place of wanting people to be happy and healthy and well, right, which is where wokeness comes from right, all leftism is about just like, you out systems of power and everybody gets to do whatever the fuck they want to do, right? Or, you know, it's really, that's what leftism breaks down to, it it's very, very core, right? But if you don't actually feel that way, that's why you find leftists falling into these traps right where they, where they think telling your 25 year old girlfriend she can't wear a bathing suit is a healthy boundary to draw because, because you haven't done the homework on boundaries,

0:37:50 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A hundred percent.

0:38:22 Tom: Yeah.

0:38:23 Eli: Right? It's, you know, the example I use all the time, because people often talk about, like, and I'm not particularly interested in, like, the left gone too far. But occasionally when that happens, people will be like, oh, the left going too far, what are you going to do? An example I always give is, like, you ever talk to a high school communist? Right, they read the Communist Manifesto, and it's super easy to read because they're in high school, and it was made for like people working the factories in industrial Russia, and they're like, yeah, we just need to seize the means of fucking production, and you're like, awesome, like the core of this is good, are they gonna have every subtlety and every nuance of economic policy worked out in their 16 year old old head? No, of course not, right? Like, by the same token, education can get you there, you right

0:38:58 Thomas: Yeah By the way, that person never has any power and is not any threat to anything, people love this is why well I do Where there's woke people freak out about someone who has a view or says a thing who has no power over you whatsoever. Is probably some kid in college who's a, you know, like read something, you know, like that, and that's a sign that the entire fucking civilization has gone to hell and we're gonna have forced marriages to trans people all the time.

0:39:13 Eli: Exactly yeah the million other reason this

0:39:13 Tom: Yeah.

0:39:30 Eli: Professor was made to suck his wife's dick that's the new New York Times opinion piece, it came out this week um, Tanzania

0:39:33 Tom: Yeah.

0:39:32 Thomas: Yeah Yeah. Can we, can we make sure, though? Sorry, Tom, I do want to make sure to talk about a little bit of the possessiveness, because I think there's a little bit of that we haven't got to.

And there was, there was something that my wife pointed out, talked about this a lot and want to make sure it gets in there, because one thing people on, you commenting said, and I think it's a reasonable thing to wonder, is why did he get in a relationship with this person whose job is surfing and modeling, and be like, you can't surf and model. Like, why didn't you just find some trad wife somewhere to whatever?

And so a really good commenter pointed out, like, that's the point, you know, and they quoted, I haven't read Trevor Noah's book, but I just wanted to read this little paragraph. Cause, cause my wife, pointed um, this out and, and, uh, I really wanted to share it. Cause I think it's good point. Um, this little quote, quote, a commenter shared, and it got upvoted like a ton because it's really good. In Trevor Noah's book, I guess this is about his dad, I think. He says, quote, "Abel wanted a traditional marriage with a traditional wife.

For a long time, I wondered why he ever married a woman like my mom in the first place, as she was the opposite of that in every way. If he wanted a woman to bow to him, there were plenty of girls back in Xhosa-land being raised solely for that purpose. The way my mother always explained it, the traditional man wants a woman to be subservient, but he never falls in love with a subservient woman. He is attracted to independent women.

He's like an exotic bird collector," she said. "He only wants a woman who is free because his dream is to put her in a cage." End quote. I really think that is what's going on here because so sinister, this, and I'm just so like surprised, not that Jonah Hill was a hero of mine. I don't give a shit about, I'll kill any hero. I'm not going to kill any of them. I don't care, but I'm just surprised.

Like, like you referenced Eli, he was doing this whole thing on therapy. He was also, I liked a lot of the things he had to say about body issues. You You know, that's been an interesting thing. And then to see him be so fucking unaware and like it's to want to like control a woman in these ways is just fucking it's it's surprising. It's really weird to me, especially because, by the way, the last note on the possessiveness thing that never fucking works like no

0:40:13 Tom: Yeah.

0:41:41 Eli: Yeah.

0:41:41 Thomas: One ever when you overcompensate, because a lot of this, too, in the quote in the text, if you look at it, you know, it's insecurity. Insecurity. It's a guy, here's a guy who's very insecure about, you know, what he looks like and all that and comes from that. And I just want to say, as someone who, as a younger guy, in my early 20s, I can at least recognize some of these feelings of jealousy, you knows? Some of these feelings of like, you now, wanting to make sure that, because of your own insecurity, wanting make sure your partner just really values you so highly. I can relate to that on some level. But here's the thing. It never fucking works. I don't understand how you can be this clueless to be like, oh, I know how I'll compensate for being like, you know, maybe unattractive conventionally. I'll, um, put my partner in a cage of misogyny.

0:41:49 Tom: Yeah, Or

0:42:22 Thomas: That'll do it. That'll make me, you know? Like, why wouldn't you have the opposite reaction? I was telling Lydia this. I was like, if I was Jonah Hill and I was somehow lucky enough to be dating like this super cool, I mean, she's a fucking surfer. That's awesome. Like she's babe. She's a surfer I'd be like, here's my strategy. I'm going to be the best fucking partner ever. I going to go to where she's surfing with these men who are more attractive than me. And I'm I'm going to bring them all cupcakes every day. Be like, hey, here you go. Have fun. Here's the, you know, like, wouldn't that be what you would want to do? You would want make up for your, maybe what you think is your shortcoming by excelling in some other way, being really cool, being vraiment friendly, being realmente good to talk to, find, your way of being a good partner that you have to offer, you know, exactly, exactly

0:43:02 Tom: Or just yeah but just like recognize that this this has already chosen You and don't Second guess There like the fuck would I second guess Hayley's choice, right, and be like, well, you know, like, of all the people that she had in the world to choose from and she picked me and I'm gonna be like, what, you know, who doesn't believe in me the most is me, that's So I should definitely get all fucking weird about that. But I do, I think there's something else that I wanted to like maybe throw out there as a possible, as having some possible explanatory, but I want to be very clear about this. It may have explanatory power potentially, but I don't think that it has excusatory power.

0:43:08 Thomas: Right. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

0:43:39 Tom: So before I say it, I want to make sure that I'm clear about that. But I do wonder if there isn't some misunderstanding. I think about communication a lot and I think maybe there's some misunderstanding that some men have of misunderstanding, like the signals people put out there that when they are trying to look for a partner.

0:43:58 Thomas: Yeah.

0:43:58 Tom: Right. So some dumb, immature, insecure kid might see a woman in a bathing suit and think, well, yeah, you were doing that when you were single, because that was a communication you were sending to the world that you were available and sexually like available to the world to find romantic and sexual partners. But now why are you continuing to do that now?

0:44:09 Thomas: Yep. Yep. Right.

0:44:22 Thomas: Totally, 100%.

0:44:22 Tom: That we're together? And and I want to be clear, I think that that there is some amount of legitimacy that misunderstanding, right? Because the ways that we behave as somebody who was single more than you guys, there were signals you try to give off to the world that you are available for dating and for romance and for sexual escapades, right? So we don't behave the same way in the world socially when we are available as we do typically when we are less available. But I think there's a lot of really insecure, like inexperienced experienced men who are misinterpreting these signals and seeing everything that they find attractive as, embedded signals to the world, to attract a man.

0:45:06 Thomas: Woman specifically Wanting to like attract a man in That Moment Absolutely Lydia.

0:45:11 Tom: Yeah. So,

0:45:11 Thomas: And I talk about this exact thing. 100%. Yeah.

0:45:13 Tom: I think there's an educational piece of that that would be really useful. I think you can educate men away from that And be like, "Yeah, look, there are some signals. You're not wrong in reading the the world this way, right? Like, there are signals that we put out when we're looking and there are signals we stop putting out when you're not looking. But like, you got to teach people what those fucking signals are and don't confuse them and don't be like, look, every time somebody's in a fucking bathing suit, you mean that they're like, she's just in a bathing suit, she's in her fucking work clothes, man. Don't be fucking weird." Yes.

0:45:20 Thomas: Well, Yeah. Well, And there's so much scrutiny on women over this thing. That's what's, I mean, what's really important is to take the the broader view of what the policing that's happening with women's bodies all the time. And this is one more instance of that in your partner. Like, it's really, that must be really crushing to have your partner think, and by the way, you can look at these pictures, they're part of, I think, the the, they, they could not be less, "I'm trying to find a fucking mate in this moment." It's just Yeah.

0:45:47 Tom: Yeah.

0:46:08 Tom: Less sexualized. Yeah.

0:46:10 Thomas: They're Yeah, and and like women are already dealing with that all the fucking time, you know. And So it's, I think there is, Tom, some legitimacy to at least being, being like, yeah, well, you're not allowed to, you know, in a relationship, put out those same signals. Like you can't have a dating profile. You can't be, you can put out the signals of I'm still, unless, you are in Eli's relationship and then it's, it's consensual, whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

0:46:10 Tom: Mm- -hmm. Right. Right. That's perfectly fair. Yeah, absolutely.

0:46:32 Thomas: But in a, you in a typical monogamous relationship that know, yeah. You cant put out those signals, but it is highly, I think, sexist to read totally ordinary behavior as those signals. That's incredibly problematic. Again, it matters what the facts of the case are. It really does.

0:46:32 Tom: Yeah. Yes. Yep. Yeah it does. It does. And there's a deep, and I, just to echo that there is a deep. Policing of women's bodies that men do in relationships because men are insecure. It comes it. And I know I was saying like before, but like, it comes from a place of like that possessiveness that need to own that need need to control. Like that shit is always wrong. Like that shit.

0:47:10 Thomas: Yeah.

0:47:10 Tom: It's just always a hundred percent the wrong thing to do. Cause to Eli's point, you cannot do that enthusiastically and consensually. It, you cannot police somebody else's behavior. Like if, if Haley said, look, it's really important to me that I have a fucking dating profile. Like am not going to say you can't have a dating profile, I'm going to break up with her. Right. There's a dip, but for real, there's a difference there.

0:47:25 Eli: Yeah

0:47:32 Thomas: Yeah, no, I know there is. Yeah totally.

0:47:34 Tom: And that difference is really important because like if I were to say you can't be who you are because like, and let's say she were to discover tomorrow, like to your point before, if she discovered something really elemental about who she was tomorrow, then like, we are not, none of us are in unconditionally loving relationships, we are all in conditionally loving relationships, all loving relationships are conditional, so like, if somebody violates those conditions, we have the option of being like, "Like, all right, cool, that's a violation of our conditions." And so, you know, I'm out.

0:48:05 Tom: And that's fair. But this other shit, this other shit is intentionally not that. This other shit is purposefully not that stuff. This is men just owning women. That is just straight handmaid's tale shit.

0:48:04 Thomas: Yeah go from there. Yeah totally. Yeah yep. One thing that occurred to me when I was looking at this. I don't know exactly their situation but I was like why is this how you're having this conversation. Like I, I know, I don't, I was was like, like, wait, I would be with Lydia. Like, Hey, you you know, want my input on which hot photos to post on your, you know? Like, why aren't they communicating? Even if it's not like a, you sort of open relationship, even if it is just on a basic, you, two people who love each other and want to be in each other's lives. Like why aren t you part of that decision in any way?

0:48:27 Tom: I know.

0:48:45 Tom: Yes.

0:48:45 Thomas: And maybe in that moment, if you were part of that decision, if you had communicated meaningfully with your partner as a human, maybe there would have been room for your input there. Maybe there would have been room for like, ah, know, that one's a little like, I don't know, might make me a little uncomfortable. How about we do this one instead? Would that be okay? You know, like there's room for that, you know, and there's room for her to be like, no, fuck you. Like that's fine too. You know? Like, but why, What that, I think that's a big sign of what's going on here of not treating their partner like a real person. You, you're just police, you're just a police officer who fucking discovered they'll this about you. Know, it's fucking, it's it's Horrible. Hmm.

0:49:08 Tom: Right.

0:49:19 Eli: I Also think it's worth pointing out that there is, especially when there is a big age gap like there was in this relationship, there is often the feeling among men of like taking an attractive young woman off the market, right? Notion that like, oh look, I caught a big fish, if you will. Um, and so often what we see in those relationships with this possessiveness is that it's not really about how the woman is behaving, it is that the man's ownership might be questioned, right?

0:49:51 Tom: Yeah.

0:49:51 Eli: Like, If you are wearing a bathing suit or fucking posing naked, right, maybe people will question whether or not I caught the fish and it's my fish, And my fish alone. Um, and I think that's really worth considering. Yeah, I guess, I guess what I would leave our audience with, because again, I, I to think that the men listening to our show are not the sort of abusive possessive types, but I think something that we can all carry away is that that discomfort is not always a sign that your partner is wrong. Sometimes it's a sign that you're wrong, or that you have something to deal with, especially if it's something to do with you controlling your partner's body, right?

0:49:52 Thomas: Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

0:50:32 Eli: And you do not need to be a crazy sexual anarchist on the far, far side of any issue to think that.

0:50:44 Eli: Alright, gentlemen, before we go, got got a little question for you here. What's the perfect fruit to serve at a shotgun wedding so

0:50:55 Thomas: All

0:50:54 Tom: Oh, I like that that one. I liked that one, that was good.

0:51:03 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.