SIO348: Is... Is Trump Going To Be Arrested? Like... Really?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:20 Thomas: Hey everybody, Thomas here. So if you're not a patron, then might be wondering what I've been doing for, I don't know, I guess 19 days of March. If you're patron, you know I've released at least one episode and it was super cool, and I'm still, I've got others that I plan to release, but whole news, this Trump news, he might finally be arrested or indicted at least, is, is so, is so big, is so monumental, that I kind of pulling an audible here, and I'm releasing something. I did an episode, uh, with Matt Cameron, who was kind enough to volunteer to break down what in the world is happening here.

And I just wanted to get that out to you right away, cause it's time sensitive issue. The tweets, or the truths, happened just, you know, yesterday as of recording, and he may be arrested or indicted tomorrow. The next day, could be very soon. So I'm getting, I'm rushing this one out.

Um, I want to know for non-patrons, if you jump on patreon.com/seriouspod, you can hear that first episode I've released, which is about the physics of Star Wars, it's a ton of fun, uh, me and an astrophysicist see a Star War, super fun, there's much more to come, I'm going to get it out and for more there. But in the meantime, I wanted everybody to have this because it's so timely, it's so important. And once again, a huge thank you to Matt Cameron.

I want to read here just to set the scene in case you missed it, were the truths that Donald Trump truth on Truth Social. He still apparently isn't back on Twitter, even though I think he had permission to, but in all caps, of course, he says, and this was yesterday, "it's time, we are a nation in steep decline, being led into World War Three," and it's hard, it's all in caps, so I almost want to say it like Brick Tamlin, not knowing what we're yelling about, you know, "it's time, we are a national," you know, cause that's what it looks like to me, but whatever, I'll read it as though he is talking, I guess, uh, "led to World War III by a crooked politician who doesn't even know he's alive." Sorry.

0:02:22 Thomas: It's such a bold metaphysical, like, statement to make in the middle of that. Like, it doesn't have consciousness, but for the moment, he's like, the thought experiment, the Chinese room, but first, no, he didn't say all that.

He said "he doesn't even know he's alive, but who is surrounded by evil and sinister people who, based on their actions, on defunding the police, destroying our military, open borders, destroying our military, open board," so did he destroy our open borders, or anyway, "no voter ID," inflate, we've lost track of what the conjugation is going on here, "no voter ID, inflation, raising taxes, and much more, can only hate our now failing USA." What? What?

I, geez, that is a, I'm going to need several chalkboards to diagram that sentence, but whatever, "we just can't allow this anymore, they're killing our nation as we sit back and watch, we must save America, protest, protest, protest."

And then he very quickly after that was like, oh, and by the way, because that's kind of vague, that doesn't really say he's going to be arrested, that's just like, yeah, you know, apropos of nothing, the country's failing and protest, oh, but also, I mean, I guess while we're, you know, while we were on the topic, uh, here, here's why we're protesting, page two, not page two, he, he typed "page," He wrote that he wrote page two I didn't just add that, he, he did a tweet thread or a truth thread and said "page two," sorry, oh boy, "page two," and that's an, that's by the way, that's not in all caps, I like that, he can calm down and be like, ah, I better note, okay, "we're on page two now, illegal leaks from a corrupt and highly political Manhattan district attorney's office, which has allowed new records to be set in violent crime, and whose leader is funded by George Soros, indicate that with no crime being able to be proven, and based on an old and fully debunked" (by parentheses by numerous other prosecutors!), exclamation point, parenthesis, "fairytale, the far and away leading Republican candidate and former president of the United States of America will be arrested on Tuesday of next week.

Week, protest, take our nation back." I just want to note, now's not the time, but there's a real debate to be had about whether Tuesday of next week is this coming Tuesday, or if he's indeed talking about the following Tuesday.

Because next week, I mean, in one sense, it's the next week coming, but also that's just this week, like this week it's happening, so for this, this week to mean anything, should be distinct from next week, but then that means next week would be the week after this week, so that could be nine, well, you know, it's not the time, it's either this Tuesday or the next Tuesday, we don't know, uh, it sort of like the old bi -monthly thing, it 50% means twice a month and 50% mean every other month, or then the rest is just some, some other crap that doesn't really matter, but that's what we're talking about.

He truth that, and that really sounds like something's happening, that, that sounds pretty big, so Matt Cameron, who you may recall from previous podcasts, is here to break it down for us, I'm really looking forward to this. So let's get on the line with Matt. You doing today, Matt, there?

0:05:32 Matt: Am doing okay. There's so much to talk about.

0:05:34 Thomas: Is a lot to talk about, um, you want to refresh the audience first and foremost, um, you know, what they might remember you from, such films as, what, right?

0:05:45 Matt: Well, mostly my Twitter presence is immigration related, but I follow all kinds of law and I practice here in Boston and I teach at Northeastern University as well.

0:05:54 Thomas: And I remember, we talked about, uh, I was refreshing on what we talked talked about, and I got depressed all over again about some of the case law that we discussed, but that is a topic for another day, because I think maybe we might have a not as depressing subject matter today. Okay, I'm going to set you up a weird hypothetical, just run with me, just pretend, hypothetically, pretend that you, someone who paid a ton of attention to this stuff, but then, like a month and a half ago, they just fell into a coma, and they just totally stopped tracking, what was kind of weird, but like, just explain what's happening with Trump saying he's being arrested to someone who was paying attention and then just hasn't, for a month and a half, for weird medical reasons.

0:06:38 Matt: That's Unforgivable. You should be watching this every second that you possibly can. I mean, it's the same shit, it's a different day. I mean, it's been happening for a while now. We've had these grand juries, you know, I actually started, I was looking to see how many open grand jury's there are right now, and I'd forgotten, gotten, um, of these, there's maybe, maybe we can talk about them, but there are so many different Trump legal proceedings open right now, but the short version is, the uh, the one that we're looking at right now, is coming, uh, of New York, and this has been coming for a while because this grand jury has been sitting for a while, they already indicted the Trump corporation, the uh, Trump, whatever organization it's called, yeah.

0:06:39 Thomas: Wow.

0:07:12 Thomas: It's that same one. The Trump org.

0:07:14 Matt: It's An offshoot. Yeah. So it's the same ds, same prosecutors, and they just have a different offshoot of this investigation that's going after Trump Personally.

0:07:15 Thomas: Okay. Yeah. Okay, so that answers because I again, it is almost like the question is, which of the things we've been mad that haven't actually gotten to Trump yet, which of the hundred things, maybe, I'm still not committing to it until I see him arrested. But based on that message, truthed, I guess. I don't know. And it was in all caps truth about how he's going to be arrested and we should all riot in the streets and stuff.

0:07:29 Matt: Yeah. Yeah,

0:07:45 Thomas: I'm not planning on rioting, are you?

0:07:45 Matt: Yeah I have time this week but

0:07:49 Thomas: Yeah, got to, you know, have an open schedule to regularly riot.

0:07:49 Matt: Yeah it'll take a day really take a date for that yeah but

0:07:53 Thomas: Yeah. But so this is I think I remember I complained previously about how this was a whole bunch of illegal shit. And it was so bad that the Trump org wasn't allowed to, like, exist anymore. And yet somehow no person was responsible, it felt like. But maybe.

0:08:10 Matt: Except Alan Weisselberg is in Rikers right now so

0:08:13 Thomas: OK, OK. But no, no with the name Trump, I guess, is what I should have said. He gotcha. So, hmm.

0:08:14 Matt: Yeah the CEO but I mean apparently that really rattled Trump to watch the CEO get taken away and changed to Rikers. I mean, that is pretty hardcore.

0:08:22 Thomas: OK, well, important correction there. But maybe I guess what I was going to say is maybe this is still that like this just took longer for someone with the name Trump to be held accountable for any of this.

0:08:31 Matt: Yeah. And this isn't about his corporate dealings. This is primarily about the payment to Stormy Daniels. But this was all done as part of the same investigation, because obviously part of what he did when he paid off Stormy Danels was falsify some business records. And this hasn't quite getting Al Capone on his taxes, but it seems kind of like that, because as you were just saying, we got so many things to pick from. Personally, I don't know about you, but if it were up to me, I would indict him over causing absolutely irreparable harm to children for a whole summer that we all watched as kids being torn out of their parents' arms.

0:08:36 Thomas: OK. Yeah.

0:09:01 Matt: I think that's a lot worse than anything he could do to pay off an adult entertainer that he had sex with. But this is what we got. This is the case we have. So, yeah.

0:09:08 Thomas: Yeah, I was gonna make a slightly cheerier joke, which was picking the thing for him to get arrested for is like choosing a favorite child. Child, um, I don't, I just, any, any of them, it's fine, they're all, anything that actually was consequences. But no, I agree, I, I also am just in disbelief that the Georgia thing didn't come first. Like, if we were doing a sort of a a pool of which would actually happen first, that seems like there's so little groundwork to do, it's all it's like the bad guy presented you a tape of evidence of like, like, here's where I did the crime. Do you want to arrest me?

0:09:28 Matt: Yeah. It's on tape. It's like three tapes total. Did you see the latest one?

0:09:43 Thomas: Oh, oh, I did see a headline on that, that there was stuff that we didn't even know about. Like another official was pressured.

0:09:46 Matt: There's more. Yeah. The Speaker of the House. Yeah. So the Speaker of the House in Georgia, and he passed a few months ago, but apparently he really put up a pretty solid defense of democracy and said he's absolutely not calling a special session or whatever nonsense he wanted. So yeah, no, like you said, though, these aren't taped. What do you want? Do it.

0:09:52 Thomas: Wow. Wow. Wow. Jeez. Well, yeah. Boy, it's hard to not get carried away with all the different threads. Do you wanna go back to the New York thing and kind of cover that first?

0:10:13 Matt: Yeah. We can pick up in Georgia again. That one's easy. But so, yeah, just to take this back and remind everybody where we're at here. For about four years, Donald Trump was actually president of the United States. And to get to that point, just a few weeks before the election, he had to pay off an adult entertainer named Stormy Daniels, legally named Stephanie Clifford, because he had in fact had, I guess, an affair isn't really the right word. And an affair really sounds like it's fun or good for both parties, but yeah.

0:10:40 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or not born of economic, financial transact terms.

0:10:44 Matt: I think an affair really should be reserved for something a lot sexier than what she describes, which

0:10:44 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. If I get a massage, I'm not like, Oh, I had an affair with a masseuse. They, they touched me and it was

0:10:52 Matt: Yeah, right. Yeah. Exactly.

0:10:53 Thomas: Nice. No.

0:10:54 Matt: Right. Right。. It's just very romantic. But no, so they had this thing happen, and this is at a time when Melania was pregnant, and it just wouldn't look good to have this out there. So she was going to tell her story and the National Enquirer. The National Enquirer had this habit of catching and killing Trump -related stories. Maybe people are familiar with that, but essentially just grabbing for cash and holding onto them, just burying the stories. But apparently, I think from what I remember, the Trump organization had actually stiffed them on one of these payments. They were supposed to cover them. So they're like, we're not doing that again.

0:11:13 Thomas: God.

0:11:25 Thomas: That's only the most believable thing I've ever heard in my life.

0:11:27 Matt: Yeah, exactly. Exactly, right. I mean, who will they not pay, right? These are people that

0:11:32 Thomas: Yeah, especially that that's a bill I pay. Like if I'm, you know, Just, I'm going to give bad guy advice. Well, maybe I will. Like, if I was a bad guy, that would be one where I'm like, wait a minute, no, pay that one, that's, don't Pay all the poor contractors who's, you know, I've ripped off over the years and various things, who have families and probably need food to eat and all that, but do pay this one bill in particular.

0:11:33 Matt: Really, yeah, the blackmail bill.

0:11:52 Matt: Yeah, you don't want your blackmail bill to be in arrears. That doesn't work out well for everybody.

0:11:55 Thomas: Yeah, Those net 30, usually are they, how do you, you're the lawyer, how does normally

0:11:58 Matt: Yeah. Just imagining the movie scene where they're piling up on the desk with the overdue stamps of all the black mail bills. So this payment has worked out. I guess AMI, which is the parent company, and of course, Mr. David David Pecker of the National Enquirer, one of the best publisher names in the business. He arranges for this payment between Stormy Daniels and the Trump Organization. Now, I am the asshole who actually read Michael Cohen's book. I read the whole thing. And it's an amazing piece of work.

0:12:25 Thomas: Yeah, Really?

0:12:29 Matt: I mean, you can learn a lot about it. It's actually, so I will say, there is a part of me that hates myself enough or just enjoys pain enough that I've read a lot of these Trump books. And I wish.

0:12:37 Thomas: I Tapped out at like three. I really did because it was like, all right man, yeah, he, he fucking sucked. He sucked. What else am I reading? But no, that's interesting. What about the, were you being sarcastic or was the Michael Cohen one? I mean, psychologically, it is an interesting thing to have happened.

0:12:44 Matt: Yeah.

0:12:56 Matt: The sense that Smithers is an interesting character next to Mr. Burns, right? I mean, that's what we're looking at here. This is if Smithers wrote a book, basically.

0:13:00 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, the Tell All Smithers book. Yeah.

0:13:04 Matt: Yes, no, he really is. Because at the beginning of the book, he's like, yeah, no. I'm like a disgusting toad. You're not going to like me when you read this book. You are going to hate this and everything I did. I hate what I did, right. And I appreciate that. Of all the Trump books, this is the most honest. I will say that the Barr book was by far the most pretentious and self-serving. The Stephanie Grisham book was the funniest. It was very good. I mean, it's really late.

0:13:13 Thomas: Wow.

0:13:24 Thomas: Stephanie Grisham? I don't even know that one. What is that?

0:13:25 Matt: Yeah, exactly. She was the only press secretary in American history to never give a press conference. Yep. And you won't believe which president she worked for. Yeah. It's a really funny book.

0:13:31 Thomas: Wow. Who's that one who died of

0:13:37 Matt: Book.

0:13:38 Thomas: The sickness after the long speech? Must have been him, right? Was that again? Cameron. Yeah.

0:13:43 Matt: But this the most honest of the Trump books. And Michael Cohen, besides the fact that he's being totally honest all the way through about what a disgusting toad he is, he's totally straight up about it, which I appreciate because it's so refreshing to actually have one of these people say, yeah, no, I was that guy. I did a bunch of terrible stuff. He claims to feel bad about it now. He probably does. But it's hard to imagine that after decades and decades of not feeling anything.

0:14:07 Thomas: Yeah.

0:14:07 Matt: You suddenly just wake up and realize you've done all this. So he says, when this came across their desk, she was actually basically asking for $100,000, then plus $30,000 for lawyers and publicity fees. And he thought that was a bargain. He thought that here she is a few weeks ahead of a presidential election. She's got him by the short hairs. Why not just go for it?

0:14:07 Thomas: No.

0:14:27 Thomas: Kidding.

0:14:27 Matt: But no, No. She just wanted $100K. Stephanie Clifford, Stormy Daniels is the hero. I'm not going to be making Stormy General's jokes here. I mean, she is absolutely The hero of the story of any of these stories.

0:14:28 Thomas: Oh. For sure. Well, I mean, I I don't know I how steeped in Opening Arguments history you are, but this was like one that one of our Make It episodes was Stormy Daniels is a legal genius, and then it was like, all right, but of course it's probably her lawyer. And then turned out to be, the as as maybe a bigger piece of shit than than Michael Cohen. Yeah.

0:14:37 Matt: Oh, Yeah. Sure.

0:14:56 Matt: A more interesting character, because Cohen's pretty interesting character, but I have not a shaking down Nike, ending his career by trying to extort Nike, just Incredible stuff. Um, But

0:15:02 Thomas: Wow. What a, a what a tale. But yeah, no, she's she's amazing. And uh, again, once again, though, this was something that it felt like was going to get to him immediately, and how is it just now, like, what's the statute of limitations on bribe, right? I don't, what, on something, whatever it would be, right?

0:15:13 Matt: I Actually, check it, was essentially extended a year during the pandemic. I didn't realize that, but they added a year to test statutes, but um, this has been coming for a while, but so, basically, Michael Cohen, this is the the funny part for me. The part that I just think is, I mean, there's a lot of funny parts, but Michael Cohen, out of the goodness of his beautiful heart, paid $130,000 out of a home equity line of credit that he took out for himself without telling his wife, because he had to figure out some way to make this payment without telling his wife. And this money was not Trump's money. So he was able to say, honestly, that I just went ahead and made this payment because I was just so worried about the president. This is the future president, right? I want to make sure that he won his election knowing, and of course, at this time, they thought he was going to completely bomb. Going to win, but he didn't want this to come out.

And, you know, Cohen was such a dedicated toady that he really did, like, he called him boss all the time, all the way through the book. He's calling him boss and sir and the boss. Um, it's really, it's pretty gross, but so Cohen makes this payment and is questioned repeatedly about, like, are you sure, like, this is your money, you really want to do that, you're his lawyer, right, because it would do that, and he did it without his knowledge, allegedly.

0:15:44 Thomas: I In My recent lawyers aren't that cool, so I feel like maybe something was not above board here, but uh, that's just me.

0:16:25 Matt: Yeah. No, no. And we don't give money away generally, not famous for that. So kind of the other way.

0:16:33 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Despite having so much of mine, by the way. No, I'm just, I should cut that. Why,

0:16:40 Matt: It's another story. Cohen released, I actually found this statement. I think it's kind of a funny statement. After he'd made this payment to Stephanie Clifford, neither the Trump organization nor the Trump campaign was a party to the transaction with Ms. Clifford, and neither reimbursed me for the payment, either directly or indirectly, directly. That was true kind of at that point. The payment to her was lawful, and that was not a campaign contribution or a campaign expenditure by anyone. Really riding the line there, because of course it was a campaign expenditure, because you're shutting her up. That's a very important value to the campaign. So that's why, eventually, Michael Cohen went down for campaign finance violations, because he didn't report this, other kind of technical violations, too. And then also, one of the bad-ass crimes, well, the most bad-assed crimes there is, which is lying to Congress, um, just an absolute banger of a crime, um,

0:17:22 Thomas: That a banger of a crime, yeah.

0:17:23 Matt: It's almost as good as contempt of Congress. That's the best one. I mean, to be found contemptible by, you know, a body that like 30 of the country likes at most.

0:17:29 Thomas: Well, It's also it's just one of those things that I did not know they could ever successfully get anyone in trouble for, because it's felt like in reason reason history, anyone can lie as much as they want to Congress and nothing happens, but but I guess not Michael Cohen or not show up. Yeah. At this point in the story, he has really just jumped on a grenade, said, yeah, no, it's just a totally normal person thing. Hi, I'm a normal human. I'm going to mortgage my house secretly without telling my wife to pay a stripper who I guess was paid to have sex with my

0:17:31 Matt: Um yeah Or Not show up apparently yeah Right. Right, right,

0:18:02 Thomas: Boss. Yeah. That's not real, but anyway, at what point was he no longer uh loyal to Trump? Because he did that, he got busted, and then he was still was loyal though, wasn't he, for a while? Yeah.

0:18:03 Matt: Right.

0:18:14 Matt: A bit. But then his house and his office were raided. And then it got really bad because they threatened to indict his wife for some reason along with him. And that was, you know, again, Cohen has at least some set of basic ethics that he lives by, obviously. And that was too far at the point at which they're coming after his wife. They also got him on a bunch of stuff I don't really understand because I don't really understand white color crime, to be honest. Not really capable of doing or understanding or defending it.

There was something involving taxi medallions that he was involved with that they just tacked on, I think for extra pressure, but they just attacked that on, and then he ended up pleading to that as well. Yeah, he ultimately took the fall for all of this, and he was told he wouldn't have to do time, and he ended up having to do, I think, 18 months, because they tacked on a bunch of last minute charges. But it was that or face an 85 page indictment and his wife being indicted and just going through a really a horrible public process. So he just took the plea and got out.

And of course, at that point, you have is one of Trump's closest associates, his consulary, apparently, a plea that he lied to Congress. Now, the lie to Congress is actually about the Moscow thing, the Moscow Trump Tower. That doesn't matter for our purposes of this conversation.

0:18:43 Thomas: Oh, Gosh, all right, I was gonna ask what that was, but that's fine, we will, we can skip it.

0:19:17 Matt: But yeah, we can leave that alone. We don't need to get into the Russia stuff right now, but But this is more than enough. But on top of those charges were things relating to two different women, Stephanie Clifford and also Karen McDougal, who was also one of the catch and kill stories. So he goes down for all of this. And his official record is that he's lying to protect his boss, which actually works out pretty well for reasons I'll explain for this prosecution.

So during this time, you've got a changeover in DAs in New York City. Cy Vance had been there forever, about as long as I've been aware of a New York DA. And he couldn't prosecute the entire time because this is the president, and it's pretty well understood at this point you don't prosecute the president. At least the sitting one. And then he's replaced by Alvin Bragg just in time, and Alvin Pragg essentially puts a kibosh on the whole thing, stops the prosecutions. I think he decided to decide it was too politically risky, even though he'd run on it, he'd campaigned somewhat on it. Two of his prosecutors actually quit. One of them wrote a book about it.

0:19:56 Thomas: Wow. Wow. They wrote a book? I was just gonna say, I do remember this, uh, there was such a bad decision that they, they quit. I didn't remember the book. I assume you've read that.

0:20:16 Matt: I started it. It's called The People vs. Donald Trump. He's not the the most compelling writer, but I do need to finish it because I'd like to know more about this and how they got there. A lot of it's about the financial corporate stuff, which isn't as interesting to me.

0:20:21 Thomas: Okay. Fair. Well, how much would he be allowed to say in a book though? Because isn't that all still technically an open investigation?

0:20:37 Matt: Right. Yeah. You can't hope for much there. Alvin Bragg, I think it was either, maybe this is his plan the whole time and he was just taking it slow. Maybe he just was pressured back into it, but they did eventually go forward with the Trump organization prosecution. That all worked out pretty well. As I said, Alan Weisberg ends up in Rikers. And now they've had this grand jury sitting for quite a while, taking testimony from everybody, including last week, Michael Cohen, for two days. They've heard from all the players and they know exactly what happened. And the question becomes Trump's contribution to falsifying this business record and doing these campaign violations.

0:20:41 Thomas: Yeah.

0:21:14 Matt: So there's kind of an open question. I don't want to get too technical on all of this, but falsifying business records, class E felony in New York, it's technically just a misdemeanor. But if you're doing it with the intent to commit another crime or commit a crime, then it becomes a felony. And so they don't even have to say what crime you intended to commit. It's a little dodgy just because federal campaign contributions wouldn't be a state issue. It's not totally clear because it hasn't been laid out what the charge would be. You know, there's certainly enough there because Cohen in his book is just explicitly clear that Trump signed off on this, that he knew exactly what was happening, that he wanted it to happen. And so as long as Trump said this should happen, the real crime on his side was after Michael Cohen made that payment, the Trump campaign paid him back over the course of several installments and they called it a retainer. And it wasn't a retainer, so that was all kinds of lying and leaves him liable to a number of things there. Yeah.

0:22:05 Thomas: And allegedly messing with any sort of retainery, anything is actually a serious thing. Although I don't believe anything anymore, but yeah.

0:22:12 Matt: Supposed To be, yeah. And although Michael Cohen, another fun part about this that people might remember, is when his office was raided, this is extremely unusual, obviously, for a lawyer's office to be raided. Um, They did a special master review, uh, The Taint team, exactly. Everybody loves the taint Team, uh, they dug down.

0:22:23 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Oh, the taint team. Yeah. Yeah, what an interesting I'm glad I'm recording with you. You know, obviously, no offense. This isn't exactly how I thought this would go when Trump finally was maybe getting arrested is absolutely not nothing to do with you, but not where I thought I'd be, what I thought I'd be doing. But it's this is a delight because it is like the final season of a beloved television show or something, because it's all. All the references. It's like all the the old characters are opening the apartment door and then the crowd cheers for a minute while the actor stands there awkwardly because somehow he has to make like being cheered for as a normal actor thing. But anyway, yeah, it's like that because the Taint Team we got.

0:22:31 Matt: Yeah. Sure.

0:22:55 Matt: It's Right, yeah. No. On Reddit who saw that one scene in season three is very happy right now. That all came around, uh, yeah, no, but the thing that I had to laugh out loud, like, actually, when this came back, because something like three percent of the documents in his, in his office, were privileged, which means that, he like, three of what he was doing was legal work and the rest of of it was just being a fixer, just being a guy who makes Things happen And that's amazing to me. I want that job, that sounds like fun. And his Book Makes it sound Like fun.

0:23:11 Thomas: Yeah. Wow, I can't. Yeah, I Can't tell if I'm impressed or mad or but like, are you? Yeah, like what do I'm still processing? Does that mean you're a bad lawyer or a really good fixer? I guess you don't know which. Like, what if he's also a badass lawyer, but he's fixing so much. He's like the Babe Ruth of fixing that there's that much stuff.

0:23:47 Matt: Yeah, You're Not Really Pretending Yeah, Pretty Much, yeah. I mean, he set up an entire whole ass company just to pay off Stormy Daniels, like an actual fake consulting firm to pass this through, and it was called Essential Consultant, which is very much what he was. Yeah, no, I mean, I'm not saying I want the job he had, but if I could, could have a job to be a fixer for good, if there's Some way that I could do it for positive reasons. I would Totally do Them, yeah.

0:23:54 Thomas: Wow. Yeah. I do sometimes wish just for, for fun. I don't, I'm not a person who likes, you know, being evil in video games, but I do wish there like, just for this kind of stuff and like elaborate burglaries, I wish there was a simulation you you got to do where you're like, all right, okay, I've lived a normal life. Now I want to try to do an Ocean's Eleven life and just see if I can pull off a big heist. Is that what you mean?

0:24:33 Matt: Yeah.

0:24:33 Thomas: Like, I want it to be a fix. That would be fun just as a, yeah, I don't like actually hurting anybody, but if I could just pretend like I was being a fixer or a, you know, like a Brad Pitt in a heist movie, that would be fine. I would like that.

0:24:36 Matt: Making Things happen, that's, uh, that's what he's been doing, and it sounds like, I mean, he admits he had a lot of fun doing it, and he had, at the time that he was arrested, I think three clients technically on paper, and pretty much, you know, all of them were Trump, um, was almost all his business. I mean, his entire life was basically defending Donald Trump. It's incredible.

0:25:04 Thomas: And again, along the lines of make sure you pay that one bill. What the fuck? What? I can't remember now. How did Trump alienate this guy? What did he do? I don't remember.

0:25:05 Matt: Yeah, right. Keep that guy happy. He had him take the fall and he ended up having to go to prison. He didn't like it. Turns out, didn't agree with him.

0:25:20 Thomas: That's it. Well, okay. But I thought he volunteered to take the fall. Did he just didn't think it was going to be that much of a fall or something?

0:25:27 Matt: He wasn't supposed to go into prison. And I don't know he really knew that he was going to be volunteering for this much. I mean, apparently Trump expressed surprise when he was raided and when things went as far as they did, that he wasn't actually going to have to go there.

0:25:28 Thomas: Okay.

0:25:37 Thomas: But wasn't it that there wasn't more like he expected either a pardon or at least like better, or I thought he expected something more from Trump, but it wasn't.

0:25:44 Matt: Oh, I'm sure he expected a part, and yeah, no doubt. But also made it known, um, think as he was leaving jail, or maybe even while he's still in there, that he was going to be writing a tell-all book, which he ultimately did. Um, then he, you know, writes about that whole process. But he actually, while he was in prison, uh, he hung out with the Situation, which I think is very funny, from Jersey Shore. Uh just a fun detail

0:25:46 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, I never watched it, but what's, what's that guy? What's his situation?

0:26:05 Matt: Oh, sure you didn't. Well, we'll go with that, of course.

0:26:07 Thomas: No, I really don't. I'm actually, uh, averse to reality TV. Like I, like for real, like I hate it. I've never watched any of those shows. What did he do? What'S, what'S his crime? Is he in there? Who did he pretend?

0:26:12 Matt: Well I think it was mostly being. The Situation was mostly

0:26:22 Thomas: I don't know who this is. Apply that coma to all of whatever the situation is. I thought he was just like a like a muscly guy who was on that show. Did he do a crime? What did he do?

0:26:32 Matt: Yeah, that's pretty much it. Now is tax evasion, of course. He just couldn't pay. Sex, he's a Rhode Island guy actually, uh, but, uh, yeah, was

0:26:34 Thomas: Oh, OK. Yeah. That that's a I thought that survivor guy, like the first survivor winner or something, which I also didn't watch. But didn't didn't somebody like that not pay their taxes? It must be an easy thing to do when you win.

0:26:48 Matt: He also a Rhote Island guy, I think he might have been, but I don't know.

0:26:49 Thomas: Oh, I don't t know. But yeah, yeah, I guess when you win a bunch of money on TV, maybe a lot of times you're surprised by the tax bill and you don't pay it. Okay.

0:26:57 Matt: I've just never had this money. Figured nobody's gonna notice, no need to pay it. It's fine, not like he's on TV for the preseason or whatever, nobody was watching him, so yeah, so I just thought that was kind of a funny detail that, I mean, on top of having to go to federal prison, you have to spend time with the Situation. Like, extra, I mean, that you should get out early for that.

0:26:59 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But if you're writing the movie or the show, then the situation turns out to be this like really wise figure who you learn a lot from, you know, and it's a weird zany comedy. Yeah now

0:27:17 Matt: That's right. Right, totally your sensei. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, so Cohen gets out and, uh, there's a sort of long period, and in common but went back to Congress, by the way, and apologized and said, "Hey, that was all a lie, and Donald Trump sucks, and now I don't like him anymore," and they had a couple hours of testimony there. So this has been hanging over Evertrum.

0:27:38 Matt: That That was 2019 that he came back and had a second set of testimony there.

0:27:38 Thomas: When was that? Okay during under Trump. Gosh, gosh, boy, it's hard to keep track of all this stuff.

0:27:45 Matt: Yeah. Yeah, they weren't talking at that point. You know, he basically he was really burned out just from the whole process. And it turns out just being a federal defendant is hard and it sucks and nobody likes it. And I had to even feel for him just a little bit when I read the book, because I don't know. I mean, he's just kind of a doof. You know, it's just he's the toady.

0:27:54 Thomas: Yeah.

0:28:05 Matt: He's the fall guy. I Run

0:28:05 Thomas: I, you know, the joke I made when we first got introduced to him, I don't know if this will resonate with you, but he's he's what we all thought the actor who played Neville Longbattom was going to turn into. But then that actor actually turned into this extreme hunk, like this really good looking man somehow. But yeah, he looks exactly like that. Like actual Neville LangbottOM grew up and just was kind of a dope.

0:28:19 Matt: Hmm. Classic. Right, totally. Yeah, and and just attached himself to uh Draco Malfoy basically. Let's See, I can do that.

0:28:29 Thomas: There you go. Wow. Good one. Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:32 Matt: Um, this seems to really change Cowan though, and now he's completely obviously on the side of the angels I guess, and uh, as much as he can be, doing his thing.

0:28:41 Thomas: Man's a saint.

0:28:42 Matt: Tested. Yeah, absolutely. No, he still sucks. But he has been very forthcoming. And, you know, this grand jury seems to have everything it needs. Don't see how they're not going to indict him on falsifying business records, because it seems extremely clear that he signed off on this personally, that he knew exactly what was happening. He actually got Weisselberg and Cohen into a room to talk about it. Like, this is, you know... I don't know if there's going to be a smoking gun tape. Actually, there was at least one smoking gun phone call because Cohen, just to give you an idea of how bad a lawyer he was, Cohen recorded a lot of his phone calls. Really bad idea. You'd think you'd learn with Nixon, but no.

0:28:42 Thomas: Yeah.

0:29:17 Thomas: Yeah, that didn't turn out great for Nixon. Whatever the thing you think you're doing with that is, it doesn't, it actually just ends up biting in the ass, it sounds like.

0:29:17 Matt: No, no. Recording any phone call, just don't do it. That's my advice. But

0:29:26 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. I'm recording this one. Is that okay? Okay, cool.

0:29:30 Matt: I guess that's a minor exception. I love that.

0:29:32 Thomas: Yeah, hopefully I don't get arrested for it. But so Weisselberg, though, he was like 100% still a devotee, right? So does that, did that cause problems with this? I mean, maybe that, Did that slow down the case? Maybe he would have like contradicted Cohen or anything.

0:29:34 Matt: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Because we don't know exactly how involved, you know, what was going on with the Dran jury, but, you know, he testified if he was involved with that, but it seems like they had enough with Cohen and they had just had to corroborate him because obviously he's not the best witness because he was already convicted of lying once. And, you know, he's, but he also has a lot of reason to turn on Trump and I think he's very credible in all of this and

0:29:47 Thomas: Yeah. OK. Ah, I mean, that's just just just speaking in general terms, the whole well, he was a piece of shit. So he's a liar. It's like, no, I mean you can you can keep track of what people's incentives are. And if they have an incentive to take a guy down, sure, that might mean they're, you know, dishonestly pretending something. But you can also just look at the wealth of evidence they have determined like, OK, yeah, he's out to get him. But it's because he also has evidence and he really hates him.

0:30:31 Matt: And to me, it just comes down to why would this man give this woman $130,000 just voluntarily, right? Of course he wouldn't. That just doesn't make any sense.

0:30:36 Thomas: Yeah. What's the better story in which Trump actually comes across? OK, that like like what's the lie that that would even be? I I'm trying to account for why the fuck this took so long. You were talking about the, you D .A. and it didn't seem to be like a chain. Was it a change there or not a change?

0:30:41 Matt: Right. Yeah. Yeah,

0:30:54 Thomas: Is that what did it?

0:30:54 Matt: It was from Cy Vance to Alvin Bragg, and just waiting for Trump to get out of office. But yeah, I really don't know.

0:30:55 Thomas: Oh, Sorry, I meant like I thought Alvin Bragg was just gonna not do anything and then did it change again, or oh.

0:31:05 Matt: Yeah no, apparently at some point they put on the pedal again. And yeah, grand joys take a while. And obviously this one, they really want to come correct. I mean, this is the first time in US history this has ever happened. And I will say, I was listening to something in the car the other day, and I kind of yelled out a correction because somebody was saying this had never happened at this level before. But fun fact, Aaron Burr, you might remember from Hamilton fame, he went on that too. But after he shot Hamilton, he actually couldn't get a job anymore. Nobody wanted to be around him. And so he just went out west and tried to start another country. That was his just kind of, yeah, why not?

0:31:09 Thomas: All right, yeah. Yeah.

0:31:28 Thomas: From The Oreo commercial? Oh, yeah, sure, I love how back then you could just do shit like that, I was like, yeah, yeah. No, that's yeah, yeah.

0:31:45 Matt: Nobody else is using this place.

0:31:46 Thomas: I was gonna say, yeah, there's nobody, nobody else lives here, it's totally fine. So we can do whatever we want, wow.

0:31:49 Matt: No, yeah, no, Right, so just take like 40 guys out and say, this is a new country, and I'm the president of it, or whatever. So Aaron Burr was actually put on trial for treason. He's the only, uh, former person of, I think, at any level to be tried for treasion like that, um, was acquitted ultimately because they couldn't prove he was actually trying to start another country, but that's clearly what, what he was doing. So, insurrectionist.

0:32:09 Thomas: He didn't record his uh telegram, I don't know, again,

0:32:12 Matt: Yeah, right. Yeah. He got away with it. So it's not totally unprecedented to have somebody at this level of national office be indicted. And this is a lot less dramatic than treason. In fact, that's, I guess, my other problem with this whole thing is that, you know, again, Stormy Daniels, hero, we love her. But is this really the first Trump indictment you want to see? Is this really the way that we break this ground is with this dinky thing

0:32:34 Thomas: Man, I just, I'm, I'll take anything, I will take anything at this point, like it, just I, I agree with you, it's not how I would have drawn it up. Well, or this could be the first one if you did it back in fucking 2017, you know. Like, then, then it could be the one, because that's when it like it had just after it happened, but uh, but yeah, no, waiting. Waiting for, God, six years, and then doing it is, yeah, it's weird.

0:32:36 Matt: Yeah, yeah, Right, right, yeah, now, We're starting, we're snorting Parmesan off the floor here. I know, I know what's going on, but I mean, it's got to get something out of this

0:33:04 Thomas: Don't know that saying, but I mean, that doesn't sound that bad. I love Parmesan. Is the bad part the floor? What's the bad parte of that?

0:33:13 Matt: Well, the bad part is you're trying to snort cocaine, that's the, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not, not a cook user myself, but that's expression, so, know, we're all just jonesing for something to happen here. And of course, you can imagine the interplay here with the Georgia case, where you've got Fannie Willis down there, if we could switch to that for just a second, who has had this case, as we've said, with multiple tapes. And the Georgia grand jurors, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution has done some great work in the last couple of weeks. I guess they've got at least five of them there talking anonymously, and they're saying, essentially, if you knew what we knew, there wouldn't be a lot of division in this country, right? You'd understand how bad it is, that it's worse than those tapes.

0:33:14 Thomas: Ah, okay. Wow.

0:33:49 Matt: Heard from Lindsey Graham, they've read from another number of other people who've had to come down

0:33:51 Thomas: I mean that's obviously bullshit just because nothing is so bad that it would heal the division in this country. Like we've learned that. He literally directed a coup and like people died and all that. That didn't matter.

0:33:54 Matt: Yeah, I know, a wonderful thought just you know, nice to think one piece of information could heal us all. But no, one just one article, yeah, seems like we had plenty. But, you know, Funny Wallace is young, and you know, she seems really good, but she's never done anything like this before. Nobody's anything like this before, and you're gonna catch a lot of heat being the first one to do it, but maybe if she drops this in the same week, there's a little, little less attention, you know, she can kind of slip it through. I don't know, I don't what they're thinking, but I do think they've probably been waiting for that first domino so they can smack down the rest of them.

0:34:03 Thomas: But, Yeah. But that still is like pretty, wow. There's a lot more that we didn't even know. And it already seemed like we had enough.

0:34:32 Thomas: So that, but that hasn't, there's no, that's just speculation. There's no actual indication that's happening yet.

0:34:36 Matt: Well, it's close. It's real close because the, and grand jury system is super weird, where they have a special grand jury that basically sends on a report to an actual grand jury. So they finished the report a while back last month, and they've sent it on to the actual grand jury, so it's not going to be very long, allegedly. It just can't be that complicated.

0:34:55 Matt: So who knows? Who knows? We'll find out.

0:34:54 Thomas: That's what I keep thinking. Mentioned that he had like the Guinness world record for most grand juries open. Is that like a, how the stats, is it like if I go check the NHL stats, you're just looking at the, hey, who's got the most, uh, who's who's the league leader in grand juries right now. How do you tally that up? Was it just you doing research of like trying to, because you, you said you, you looked at that, how do you even look at that? Okay.

0:35:03 Matt: Yeah. Yeah. The Globe and the Times both had good rundowns of all the open cases, but even they apparently, because I went back and listed a couple of other things, they missed a couple that are potentially out there. And so, because, you know, the Jack Smith stuff, right? You've got the federal U attorney that has been appointed just to do Trump cases, and he's got two whole buckets full of charges. He's got massive stuff he's preparing. The January 6th committee referred on a slew of charges related to January 6, including obviously trying to put up a slate of false electors. And I think what's interesting to me, too, is the campaign finance violations after, the point at which he'd been out of office or was on his way out of office and was just raising money for no apparent reason and just spending on who knows what. So you got all that. And then on the other side of that bucket, you've got, of course, the Mar-a-Lago raid, and you've got a whole bunch of classified documents. And I'm sure people have been following that pretty closely, but there's a lot there.

0:35:20 Thomas: Wow well I had been, and then it just stopped and nothing happened, and then Biden had like a paper clip, so then it was the same, and the, yeah, I've got, I'll be honest, I've definitely lost track of that whole thing, you

0:36:14 Matt: Yeah. It's a mess. Smith seems to be working pretty quickly, so it could be done within the next few months. It's really unclear, you're going to have some traffic jam here, people trying to prosecute him, at some point multiple hearings he's got to be at, they're going have to coordinate kind of scheduler here, but yes

0:36:34 Thomas: Definitely need them all to meet and encircle Donald Trump and then do some really funny scene about it, to you, solve who, uh, who does it, dance off, I don't know, something, yeah like a 12 -sided coin, like a Dnd 144 -sided coin to see which, which of the many teams gets access to him first, well

0:36:43 Matt: No, just flip a coin, just get it done, our D &D dies. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Get to roll that 20. Yeah, what's going to happen in the next couple of days that we can come back to the federal prosecutions. But I want to talk about that because there's some really interesting possible scenarios that about to play out. And he could be indicted as soon as tomorrow. We're recording this on Sunday, the 19th.

0:37:09 Thomas: Thought he said Tuesday, right, or did he say tomorrow? No,

0:37:11 Matt: He did. Did. Yeah but well it's not up to him though. So you know. If I were them, I would just do it tomorrow because he's made such a big thing about Tuesday. Don't give his people any time to rally, you know?

0:37:20 Thomas: Kidding yeah, what, what in the world, I mean, I suppose normally you rely on you, person being arrested, not announcing to, uh, millions of angry people that he's going to be arrested. But what about that end of it? I mean, just to ask a basic question, why the hell does Trump know this, you know, and it's not, so is that that something you have to do? Like provide, like, hey, we're going to arrest you on, what are you doing? Hold on, open up your calendar. Are you busy Monday? You're golfing Monday. Okay, Tuesday.

0:37:30 Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

0:37:45 Thomas: Can we arrest you Tuesday? And then also, it is interesting though, because as much as, know, I think a lot of us have been burned by this whole thing before and are skeptical of these kinds of things. But when you see the guy in all caps saying, they're going arrest me like that, there's, doesn't come out of nowhere. Like there's got to be, it's going to happen, right? It seems impossible that he would announce that and it's nothing. Yeah.

0:37:45 Matt: Right. Right?

0:38:07 Matt: Fun fact that I find hard to believe, but Donald Trump still has lawyers. It's pretty incredible after all this time. I just can't imagine what kind of person would stick with him. Him. After everything he's done to his lawyers and all the different sanctions and violations his lawyers have been up for, and all of the people who have been paid as his lawyers, quite a few of them, including Rudy Giuliani, not that he deserved it, but he's been stiff too. But his lawyers apparently have been telling him this, and it is kind of reading the tea leaves because the last thing that you do, apparently in a New York grand jury, I don't think it really works this way in Massachusetts, but the last person you call is the defendant.

You give them the option to come in. And for the most part, it's a grand jury. There's no point in doing that. It's the DA's show. He's going to do what he's going to do. Apparently they had just called him because Michael Cohen just testified. They do know that publicly. He just spent two days doing it and he was Trump would be the last person to come in. So they know that they're about to wrap it. He declined, obviously, to come in. So at

0:38:11 Thomas: Yeah right

0:38:55 Matt: That point, if there's no more witnesses.

0:38:55 Thomas: To the to actually testify when you say come, okay, so that wasn't come in as in like come to the police station to the the federal police station or no, new York sorry new Yorg, yeah, yeah gotcha

0:38:57 Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. That's next. No, this is a state. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So day's game, game, and, uh, so apparently the tea list he's reading, though, is that because he's just been asked to come in, that they figure because he're passing on it, there's no other witnesses, this has got to be it, and they're about to make the recommendation, they've been at it for quite a while here, so

0:39:18 Thomas: Huh well but then, by, if that was all it was, couldn't he, just wouldn't you expect Trump to have the Trumpy, like, well, it's case closed and they got nothing. I don't think he would announce like, damn it, they're done, which means I'm definitely being arrested.

0:39:26 Matt: No, right I no, well, I mean, a grand jury, it's as famously, it's very easy to get some things through a grand jury, it's, you know, really just more likely than not like

0:39:37 Thomas: That's what we heard. That's the lie that we've been told for seven years. A whole lot of ham sandwiches that have been indicted, but not a lot of Trumps and not a lot police officers who kill people. That is the that are not ham sandwiches, apparently. Everybody else is a ham sandwich.

0:39:38 Matt: Right yeah, right, um it's true, that's true and Michael Cohen called himself a ham sandwich uh, he does look like one

0:39:55 Thomas: That guy is definitely a ham sandwiches. Yeah, that's that's that tracks. But it does, so okay, so having looked at the wording there, sounds like he's gotten more indication than purely a scheduling of witnesses, I, I would have to just, knowing Trump, like, I don't think he tweets that just unless, like, his lawyers tell him that he's going to get arrested. It just seems weird, ah

0:39:58 Matt: Yeah protest, comma, take our nation back, sounds a lot like the kind of shit he was tweeting before January 6th and that's concerning, so I, I would, I mean, you have to tell him that the grand jury's seen enough, they're going to indict you, like, that's just going to happen, so you haveと get ready for it, and it's very likely going to happen, and I'm sure he just heard next week and decided on Tuesday or whatever, but uh and the grand jury, we think it sits on Monday and Wednesday, so it makes sense that they're gonna finish up their business tomorrow, so yeah

0:40:38 Thomas: Okay, that part I believe, yeah oh all right, it's very, yeah there's so many specifics in there that make it hard to conclude to anything but that this might actually happen, yeah

0:40:46 Matt: Yeah uh, it's, it's hard to believe, and might have actually reached that point, and again, it's ever just some dinky bullshit, but that's fine, whatever it takes, uh

0:40:59 Thomas: Yeah, and, and it, I really do think it is true that, what, like, you, you were kind of of saying, like, once you loosen that jar a little bit, I think that, know, you, because so much of this is a bunch of, uh, shit prosecutors, is what his name says, I think, possibly, or just stuff takes time, I don't know anymore, um, once he's a sitting, in not sitting president, but a sitting-in-prison ex-president or something, I feel like the indictments may flow a little bit yeah

0:41:22 Matt: It'll be a lot easier once somebody starts to run over um, and I don't think, I mean, it's impossible to imagine, and again, I want to believe that no one is above the law, but it's possible to imagine one of the well, probably, probably the most famous person in the world for the last few years, going to prison. I mean, for example, he gets less than a year, he's going to Rikers, which is unimaginable to send Trump to Rikers. And they should, I mean, he deserves it. But I honestly don't think anybody should go to RikERs from what I know about it. I'm kind of an abolitionist all around, but if RikES needs to exist, people like him exist for it.

0:41:26 Thomas: Yeah right I was gonna say, I'm, I agree with you, I'm all for, uh, abolishing, let's start by abolishing it for everybody else but Trump, and then if that happens, then we can abolish it for Trump at that point, for sure

0:42:02 Matt: Yes. Somebody who's seen no consequences for anything he's ever ever done, deserves six months in Rikers. I have no problem with that. But so he's in Florida right now, though. He's not in New York. So the question becomes, how does he get to New York? And he says he's going to do this all orderly and turn himself in and do what he needs to do. But that doesn't sound like our boy. I don't know.

0:42:09 Thomas: Yeah but at the same time, you, does seem like when it comes to court thingies, he has adopted a bit of a different persona, like and so forth. So maybe this, I don't know, maybe this is that where like it's not going to look good for him to be like, you are they called? I was about to, is it, what was I about to say? Frogmarch? Is that a real thing? I'm tired. Frogmarsh? Okay.

0:42:30 Matt: Yeah. Yeah, Frogmarsh. That's true. Yeah? Yeah.

0:42:44 Thomas: I have a three month old and I don'T sleep anymore. So sometimes a thing like Frogmarsch occurs to me and then I'm like, that must be some kid bullshit that I'm, that's probably from one of my daughters daughter's shows or something. That can't be a real turn of phrase, but no frog marched. Is that real? Who marches a frog?

0:43:00 Matt: That's a thing. That is really a

0:43:02 Thomas: What is that?

0:43:02 Matt: Thing! It's a terrible thing to do to frogs. It's It's a real violation, but I guess just because they're handcuffed and they walk with funny, I don't know, but well, they ought to be.

0:43:05 Thomas: What did frogs ever do? Yeah. Weird. Frogs are famously hand cut. I don't, yeah, I still don't get it, but okay. Yeah. I got to think he doesn't want that unless he would want a spectacle for people to rally around, but that's I don't know. That's sure.

0:43:22 Matt: So well, here, let me just, just, for fun, just bear with me for a moment while I play out the apocalyptic scenario, because this could get real weird. And with Trump, there's always the possibility of everything getting real weird, so we have to be prepared for this. So here he is in Mar-a-Lago, and there's an indictment that is issued out of New York, And he has no intention of going to New York. And so at that point, New York Police Department has no jurisdiction to just go and get him. They have to work with Florida police to do that. Florida police are unlikely to do That. You want to get involved. And to extradite him, do you want to guess how that works?

0:43:28 Thomas: All right. Oh, DeSantis. God. Have to go personally beg the next president of the United States to let him go or something.

0:44:00 Matt: To the extradition, you have to go personally beg him to sign off. So he would have to sign off on the guy he's going to run against getting extradited. Totally unprecedented. Nothing like this has ever happened.

0:44:05 Thomas: Holy. Well, I I was worried that the apocalyptic scenario is he's just going to protect him forever. But like, yeah,

0:44:14 Matt: It could happen. It could happen, but

0:44:15 Thomas: Like on one hand, he could just throw him under the bus because he wants to be president and be like, hey, I've seen the evidence. It's horrible. We were a country of laws and He violated the law. And in New York, you know, that's one approach. Approach another more apocalyptic approach, I guess, would be like, no, we're definitely, this is insane, the woke left is struck again.

0:44:21 Matt: I'm sure, right?

0:44:36 Thomas: And what we're going to do is keep him, but he can't, you know, he can't run for president because he has to stay in, in Florida. So forever, so again, he could never be president. So I, DeSantis will have to be president. I don't know, that would be a, that'd be, be interesting. Yeah.

0:44:36 Matt: Yeah, totally possible.

0:44:49 Matt: Just weird that it's in his hands to any degree. It is just a very strange thing that this is happening. But there is a scenario in which he just doubles down, refuses to leave Mar-a-Lago, barricades himself in, and DeSantis refuses to sign off an extradition warrant, and then you have a really interesting federalism problem of you know, who knows, I mean, again, I, I, this is the man who brought us January 6th, right? This is not impossible to consider, but if January six hadn't happened, I'd say that's insane, but who knows, um, yeah

0:44:52 Thomas: Wow. Boy. Yeah oh I mean, I still think it's insane, but not really, I'm not not enough to like really criticize anyone for being worried about it, I'll say, because yeah I will say that, also, if this were the plan, I feel like he could just go to any number of better Republican states for him, you know, like, because you know, he's been going after Meatball Ron for For a while, I feel like he would be like, hey, Meatball, I'm sorry I called you because there's some other food I should call you. You know, or he would just go to, you know, Arkansas or something and just live

0:45:20 Matt: Yeah me too, yeah yeah yeah or Texas

0:45:52 Thomas: Anywhere.

0:45:52 Matt: I mean, you know, just sure yeah

0:45:53 Thomas: I mean, really, there's so many states. I mean there's shithole countries or whatever. Maybe he doesn't want to actually stay there. That's also a very Trumpian thing to make the decision based on where he's most comfortable. But strategically, I feels like there's better states than Florida if his plan was to try to hole up and resist it forever.

0:45:58 Matt: Yeah is nice this time of year, you know, why not Florida weather, um yeah that, that's just, I, I don't think that's going to happen, but uh, there was this book that came out during the pandemic, uh, How Civil Wars Start, which, I, it was a great read, um, but she had a scenario yeah it's worth it, it's good, good read, it gives you a lot to think about and plenty of reasons to stay up at night, uh has a scenario, yeah, one more, why not, right, uh, she puts out this whole thing in which there's like a constitutional sheriff in a small town who takes some kind of stand and basically dares the federal government to come arrest him, and it starts a whole conflagration and gets these sides kind of facing off, and you know, she's saying this could ultimately spiral out into a national issue, right, and become a civil war, not in the traditional, you know, blue versus gray sense, but very much in sort of localized insurrections and you

0:46:12 Thomas: Oh, boy. Yeah. Oh, I think that's on my list, actually. Yeah, cool. Those. Yeah?

0:46:56 Thomas: Yeah.

0:46:56 Matt: Know, all kinds of just chaos everywhere, and this is, is over a very polarizing figure to begin with, and again, I shouldn't sit here and make all this happen by saying it, I don't want to speak it into existence, but you know yeah

0:47:06 Thomas: Yep, yep. No, I mean, that's worth considering. Like, in the times we live in, you know, 20 years ago, I'd say that's insane. There's no, I wouldn't worry about it. I'd I'd say you are a loon for even worrying, but no, like that's, um, I don't know, 20%. Like it's not, it's Not 1%, you little worried about it, but I hope that, uh, I hope That won't happen.

0:47:15 Matt: Yeah no I, I mean, you know, he's, he's given us his word, Thomas, so what do you want, he's gonna turn himself yeah, yeah we just wasted 10 minutes, obviously, so and his taxes well

0:47:29 Thomas: Oh, okay. Nevermind. Why didn't you lead with that? I don't Okay. After he pays all his contractors, he's going to walk down to walk up to New. Yeah. Okay. So as if that weren't enough, there's... there's other news. There's other things that, that you're prepped on. Would you like to, uh to tell us tell us more about how much trouble Trump should be in?

0:47:51 Matt: Of like the eight possible criminal cases that are out there. So Jack Smith, the federal prosecutor who's running these things, he just got some really great news. I think just maybe Thursday, Friday, that Evan Corcoran, who's a Trump lawyer, again, just like all of Trump's lawyers, gets dragged into some pretty, pretty bad stuff. He up having to testify. Now, again, this is an ongoing theme that Trump's lawyers end up having to testify because it turns out they're all taking part in crimes and frauds. So if you're doing crimes and frauds, you don't get to have that information be privileged.

0:48:20 Thomas: It just really strikes me like in a in a job interview where they're like, you know, you're You're going to get really hands on in this. You know, it's not it's not your typical. You're gonna see both sides of the legal system when you come on and be a lawyer for Trump. That's

0:48:27 Matt: Right. Yeah. No, your client will be right there with you, hands -on, just side -by -side, digging Ditches. The nutty thing about this is, you know, Corcoran was responsible for helping to deliver the documents that were in Mar-a-Lago, and he was assuring the Justice Department that they'd taken care of everything, there's nothing left, and of course literally like the day that he's making this assurance, they've got somebody moving stuff out, and it's on camera, so

0:48:36 Thomas: Hand in glove.

0:48:55 Thomas: It's like Baghdad, Bob. It's just like it's all done. All everything's. We got everything now all done and there's someone behind him carrying a box of stuff.

0:48:56 Matt: Yeah. It's pretty bad, yeah. Exactly. Just sneaking out, yeah, uh, because they, they actually thought to get the camera from the day and talk to all the grounds people to see, you know, if they saw anything unusual. So Corcoran is on the hook because he's liable for having participated essentially in crime or fraud and trying to cover more documents up. And so his testimony would be amazing because they're also going to get his notes.

0:49:05 Thomas: OK, yeah. Wow.

0:49:22 Matt: All kinds of great stuff. And you might remember Trump hates it when his lawyers take notes, and this is exactly why. Also, I looked into Trump's lawyer, Joe Toccapino, I think. Well, exactly, right? Because he has to dig to completely new places. He has to mine new lawyers from the depths.

0:49:31 Thomas: Oh, I've never even heard Of this one. Who is this Yeah. Yeah. He's generating them with AI, I think. That's just a ChatGPT bot person.

0:49:42 Matt: Yeah, totally. Apparently he's a well -known criminal defense attorney in New York because he had to get a New York guy. Guy. But really nutty thing about him is that he consulted with Stormy Daniels in 2018 when she was trying to come after Trump. So he should not be doing this case at all. It's pretty bad.

0:49:54 Thomas: Oh, Yeah. No kidding, that's A good point, wow.

0:49:57 Matt: You've consulted with the major witness in this case, the person who was being paid off. And by the basic rules of professional conduct, you can't just go and turn around and represent the guy who was paying her off. You just can't. I don't understand why he's doing this or how he's being allowed to do it, um, typical, that

0:50:09 Thomas: Okay. I tell you, my guess is that when he went to, I don't know that there's like a Yelp for lawyers, or it's just Yelp, but there's probably a filter that's like, will they follow the rules, conduct of professional, and then you uncheck it, then, and that's, that's all the ones he could have, be his lawyer. And so that's probably why.

0:50:19 Matt: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, the uh, professional conduct optional, guys, yeah, why not Just give it a try, yeah.

0:50:30 Thomas: Don't know why they have that filter, but it's, it's worked for Trump.

0:50:34 Matt: You should look into that, so that, again, just more of a mess, and more of us, but I mean, again, just kind of like the recorded phone calls, he's got classified documents in his pool room, right? Like, what are, are you doing? How is this taking so long? It's right there.

0:50:35 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. There, okay. In law, I'm, is basic law question, and I guess criminal law question, why these cases, and, and, if not Trump, just like a basic criminal of some kind, I don't know, your typical hypothetical drug dealer or whatever it may be. Why it always, oh, let's collect evidence for 4,000 years until we get every jot and tittle, versus, well, no, we have enough here to like get the guy arrested for, you know, so he's out criming anymore. Let's, okay, let's do a quick one, first one to get them off the streets, and then we can develop all the other evidence that apparently has to be developed, even though we all already know it, and it's out in the open, it's phone calls that we all know about, we'll do that while he's sitting in jail already, what, what is, why doesn't that exist, one

0:51:31 Matt: Glad you asked, Thomas. I've got some insider information actually on this. Federal prosecutors hate to lose. That's my insider information. They really don't like to lose cases and they will do anything not to lose a case. And they are so careful, so meticulous, so over the top with everything. I mean, there's a reason that the conviction rates they have in federal court. I mean here Here in Massachusetts, you know, we have like a 50 % conviction rate on murders in Suffolk County, you know, and it's just how it is. But the U.S. Attorney's Office does not bring a case unless they can absolutely nail you to the wall and run you over with a steamroller. Think I mixed those metaphors, but the steamroller is going up the wall, down the wall.

0:52:04 Thomas: Of The Wall, wall, steamrollers, the wall-based ones.

0:52:06 Matt: Yeah, one of those. Yeah, but they're going to flatten you is what they're gonna do. So they're not just going to come with a few pieces of evidence. They're going come correct with everything they possibly could, because who knows, maybe half the evidence gets thrown out, right? So you got to be ready.

0:52:06 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. I Guess Yeah. That's Fair, it just really seems like in all these cases, if there's one that's like, all right, okay, federal, federal prosecutor over here, or whoever, state, whatever it is, we'll one for the team, we'll get them, get them off the streets here, and then, then you do everything else, but I guess that's can't Can't be how it works.

0:52:32 Matt: No. That's the law and order version where you wrap it up in an hour, but sadly. But, I mean, the best – actually, with the impeachment, the second impeachment, I was amazed at how quickly they moved on that. But, again, that happened in front of us. It happened literally in frontof Congress, the people who were prosecuting him. And that wasn't a criminal case, but still, they pulled it together very quickly. Very impressive.

0:52:41 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Yeah. So the bulk, that was that his lawyer is on the other side. Again, I always make the reference of the chicken lawyer in Futurama, where he, he ends up being the one who's in currently in jail and having a meeting with his clients who are not in jail. So that's the good news for that federally thingy.

0:53:03 Matt: Right. Right. That his lawyer is going to have to testify against him. Yeah. That's going to go a long way forward because the obstruction is going to be big for this, obviously, that they're moving things around on purpose. There's three big charges coming out of the documents, not just the Possession of Classified Documents. There is an Espionage Act thing, which doesn't require them to be classified.

0:53:08 Thomas: OK, wow. Mm-hmm.

0:53:24 Matt: There's obstruction. And obviously, I think it's pretty easy to prove obstruction when you know that the DAJ has been demanding over and over again. And NARA, you know, know, the records people, have been demanding to get these things back, and you're just moving them around. Um, seems like pretty classic abstraction to me, but what do I know, I'm not a federal prosecutor. We'll see how it plays out. And then the January 6th stuff is probably more of a long shot. Um, it would be great to actually see justice on that, because that's the big stuff, you know, that's the stuff that really matters for history, where

0:53:34 Thomas: Yep.

0:53:48 Thomas: So? Well, It's big, the big stuff, but also more of a long shot. Why do you think? Is it just because of the nature of, you he did it and how it's hard to get people for vaguely inciting riots, I guess? Oh,

0:53:58 Matt: Is actually beyond. So yes, the incitement of the riot and uh, obstructing the business of Congress, that's all in there too. But the one I'm excited about is actually pursuing the fake electorate scheme, because that hasn't been pursued enough. And that could be great if that actually works out, because we need a historical record.

0:54:06 Thomas: Right. But I didn't think that that was going to be Trump specifically. Do you think it will be or do you Think it's a bunch of, You know, idiot Republicans kind of on his behalf? Have, okay.

0:54:19 Matt: Be involved. He was Very excited about it. He knew about it, but he's going to be able to say, reason I don't think that's actually going to be indicted for him is that he's gonna be able say that John Eastman told him to do it, that a lawyer told him it was okay. Mean, a lawyer who's completely out of his mind, but he's still technically a lawyer, so yeah.

0:54:21 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Again, having out of your mind lawyers benefits Trump, I guess. If you find someone so bad that you can say, "Well, my lawyer told me to commit this crime, so therefore I'm fine."

0:54:45 Matt: No. He just told me to shoot everybody, and so what am I supposed to do? He

0:54:48 Thomas: Unless Eastman didn't go along with that, right? Couldn't he cause trouble there? Or he's pretty yeah.

0:54:53 Matt: He's Been, came up with it, so I think he's gonna try to, he's gonna have to stand by it. I think she's already been reported, uh, multiple licensing people for this, but yeah. So who knows, but there are a number of other things, uh, the J6 committee referred out that, again, they might be a longer shot. Just they require a lot more evidence, a lot lot more intent of proof, proof of intent rather. Um, you know, who knows, it's uh, something to dream on, but we've got all kinds of great stuff here, and one way or another, I don't know, does he go to prison, does he go to Rikers, does he have to do house arrest, does he do community service by the side of the highway. We will find out. Beautiful.

0:55:01 Thomas: Oh.

0:55:26 Thomas: Wow, that would be incredible.

0:55:27 Matt: Thought I would love that. Yeah, yeah.

0:55:27 Thomas: You wouldn't be able to tell that he's wearing the orange jumpsuit. It'd just be just be a whole or you already, it wouldn't need it, just be like, yeah, I know.

0:55:32 Matt: Just orange Yeah, it's true.

0:55:36 Thomas: I already, you can already see me at night. Yeah, I don't know, uh, that, where are we leaving it? There, is that we're case closed here for now?

0:55:37 Matt: I'm ready for this. Well, I did want to leave on a positive. Do. I really try and I'm trying to do this in my life these days of actually ending with positive things, because as you might remember, I'm not so good at that. So this is from the Atlanta Journal Constitution piece. I just wanted to read it into the record because I think it's just a quick paragraph here, because it just gave me a lot of hope. It made me smile. They anonymously talked to some jurors, and here is some commentary. "I can honestly give a damn of whoever goes to jail, you know, like personally," one juror said.

"I care more about there being more respect in the system for the work that people do to make sure elections are free and fair," said another juror. "I tell my wife, if every person in America knew every single word of information we knew, this country would not be as divided as it is right now." The grand jurors said they understand why the public release of their full final report needs to wait until Willis makes indictment decisions. "A lot's going to come out sooner or later," one of the jurors said, "and it's going be massive. It's gonna be massive." So

0:55:43 Thomas: Oh. Hmm. Yeah. Right. Wow. Geez.

0:56:33 Matt: There you go. No, something to look forward to. Yeah.

0:56:34 Thomas: Geez. Wow. That's yeah. I like it. Thank you for going out on that positive note and thank you for the breakdown. I suppose we'll, we'll stay tuned and see what happens this week and, you maybe we'll be able to, to follow up on this, but Matt, thank you so much. And of course, can people find you? I know you have the, the Twitter, you said it was the main thing you're, you're known for.

0:56:43 Matt: Yeah.

0:56:58 Matt: Just at Matt underscore Cam, M-A-T-T underscore C-A-M.

0:57:01 Thomas: And you're still on Twitter, huh? I guess I technically am, although I don't really use it.

0:57:04 Matt: Sometimes. Yeah.

0:57:05 Thomas: Did you try any of the other bullshits? I just couldn't really.

0:57:06 Matt: No. No.

0:57:09 Thomas: Yeah, me too.

0:57:09 Matt: I'm on Post, but I don't know, man, fun's getting out of it.

0:57:12 Thomas: Know. I don'T want to be on Twitter. I DON'T want, I'm not doing any of the other ones. Sorry. I'm a boomer now. I've realized I've become, I am become boomer. I don't like Bluetooth. It sucks. And I don't like having to do a different thing. Just make Twitter be the thing that I, I don't know. Well, we'll see.

0:57:18 Matt: Yeah.

0:57:30 Matt: Just make it a public utility already. Just nationalize it. I mean, it just, it needs to exist in some form. It may be a better form but

0:57:31 Thomas: There you go. Fast forward to the part where Elon Musk has totally demolished himself and it, and then somebody else has taken over so that we can be back on it happily. But while we're at it at Matt underscore cam, as you say, thanks so much. Really appreciate you coming on. Uh, and, uh, yeah, positive note. I'm, I am genuinely looking forward to finding out what happens on Monday or Tuesday or whatever day it might be.

0:57:36 Matt: Yeah. Somebody decent, because And I'm ready to come back and, uh, tell you everything I said was wrong. We can talk again.

0:58:00 Thomas: All