DOD33: How Much Should Our Kids Know About Our Mental Health Issues?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Dear Old Dads the podcast that's carrying water for baggage I'm Tom Curry and I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick hello gentlemen

0:00:35 Eli: All Right. Hello. Given the cold openings of our show, you guys are now gonna spend ten minutes talking about how much you love filling your suitcases with water and, oh, I have to take them all in at the same time. You know, when you put it between your teeth and your back bowlers, God's the best feeling in the world. No,

0:00:44 Tom: Yeah like I do have a story real quick did I ever tell you guys the story of when I almost killed somebody with two suitcases I think, I think I may have actually killed somebody entirely dead in the,

0:01:00 Eli: No.

0:01:01 Thomas: Glad that the mad lib of Tom stories, the wheel of time. Like, you have a wheel, you spin. I almost let's see, see what's a verb, killed, and let's see a noun, uh, none, let's see with what, a bowling ball. And then he's like, did I ever tell you about the time I was killed

0:01:04 Tom: I got a story about that.

0:01:17 Eli: I almost killed someone with a luggage cart, so I'm very excited. I want to know... Our stories are probably similar.

0:01:17 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:01:20 Thomas: Geez. Geez. Am I the only not murderer on this show that I know of I guess all

0:01:25 Eli: Yeah.

0:01:25 Tom: This, this one's pretty rough. This is not going to paint me in the best light, but I don't, I don't think it's funny anyway. So I, Haley and I were traveling from Australia. We were in Sydney, Australia, and we were going to Fiji and I'll spare you a lot of the details, but suffice it to say, we were running late through no fault of our own. We were running to the airport because of traffic and taxi problems. Then we got to the Airport in Sydney. There had been a volcano eruption recently, which created this huge, like backlog of lines and people scrambling for, uh, you know, different flights and all this crazy shit.

0:01:28 Eli: Just like cereal.

0:01:29 Thomas: Right oh yeah I remember when that happened oh man

0:01:57 Eli: Yeah.

0:01:57 Tom: And so, and there's only one flight a day from Sydney to Fiji. There's one flight per day, so we have to make this flight because then, like, your transport to all of your subsequent transportation and everything is like it's all got to fall in line, so we're like, and at Sydney airport, is enormous, it's just absolutely an enormous airport, and I've got, I'd bought these tickets many, many months before the event, so I didn't buy like the baggage extra or whatever, I was like, I'll just check however many bags we pack, I'll check them when we get there, and we're flying this airline called Jetstar, which is like, fucking, it's an absolute trash airline, that, but but it's the, it's literally the only option. So we're flying trash airlines.

I get to the thing and, you know, finally make our way through the long ass lines. I'm like, I got to check these bags. They're heavy as shit. Right. So I've got like, cause we were on vacation for three and a half weeks. So you can imagine how many bags like you've got and you've gotten multiple climates and all this stuff. So, we've got all these bags. I've got a backpack on, I've just like laid in with bags, like a fucking pack mule through the Andes.

And so like I go to the lady and she's like, it's going to be very expensive. And I'm like, I literally don't care. I have a flight. I know I still have to get through like the international, like scan your face thing. I've got security to go through. I don't cares. Whatever it costs, it costs. She's like, I don't think you understand. It's going cost like, and I'm not making it, I'm making a number up, but it was going to like six to $800 a bag for

0:02:09 Thomas: Yep yep been there yeah

0:03:22 Eli: Jesus.

0:03:22 Tom: Every bag that we checked because we didn't buy this ahead of time. And, I was like, the what and excuse me? She's, like, would be cheaper if you mailed it from here. I'm like, I'm not mailing my clothes from

0:03:31 Eli: Be cheaper if I bought a house nearby, ma'am.

0:03:32 Thomas: You a new identity and moved to the country that we're at.

0:03:39 Tom: So she's like, all right, well, let me, let me see what I can do, and then she does the thing that everybody had, a fucking one of these like fucking telecom clerk systems, she puts her head down and she begins typing like it's her her fucking master's thesis like

0:03:47 Thomas: Oh, yeah. Of course. Yeah, I was going to say she has to

0:03:50 Eli: For an hour and a half.

0:03:51 Thomas: Type into the computer. I think she's just typing. Can this guy check? What are you typing? What could that possibly be?

0:03:52 Tom: It's yeah

0:03:58 Eli: I

0:03:59 Tom: She is typing and typing and typing and just head down, and I've, no, it, and finally, like, and time is just ticking and ticking and tickling and ticking by, so, like, I'm not kidding, 20, 25 minutes ticks by, and I was like, all right, Haley, take your carry -on bag, you just go, I'll figure this out, you just need to go and get there and get to the resort and get checked in, if you're the only one there and I missed this flight, at least you got checked in, at least you're there, like, because I don't want to miss all this and

0:04:24 Thomas: Yeah.

0:04:28 Eli: Alright, Tom Hanks fucking Haley at your gravesite, did I live a good life, fucking vacation

0:04:37 Thomas: Did I go on a good vacation? I

0:04:39 Tom: So so I'm

0:04:41 Eli: Still at that desk instead of the tombstone, yeah

0:04:44 Thomas: I can't wait for the shot of the younger actor that played Tom, and then the old Tom, but it's instead of, it's just at the desk, like, still just standing at the the lady's

0:04:47 Tom: I still standing

0:04:52 Eli: It's just Tom still at the desk, yeah, the lady's still loudly typing, but it's on a futuristic device like

0:04:57 Thomas: The same age by the way, the lady is still the same age she

0:04:58 Eli: Yeah exactly yeah she has not changed yeah, mm

0:05:01 Tom: There Methuselah beard hanging down so Hayley, Hayley goes on to go, go ahead or whatever, and I'm hoping she can like get through and like text me, like, oh, the line wasn't that bad, or go here, go there, like, whatever, she learns, I can like figure out, so finally, like, time ticks by, and I looked at Late and I was like, look, don't even tell me what it costs, just take my credit card, make it happen, I've got to leave right now, so she's like, okay, and I still don't know what she charged me, I didn't look. Look, it was terrifying. She charges me whatever it costs to check two of the biggest, heaviest bags, which left me with Haley's Carry -On, which was... Or no, Haley's second size bag, which is technically carry -on size, but weighed a fucking ton. And the same with mine, plus a backpack. And I'm about 220. I've got probably 50 pounds of bag in each hand. 40 pounds, let's call it, of bags in each hands, plus this backpack on.

0:05:02 Eli: -hmm we're

0:05:51 Thomas: Do you start the flight, did the pilot come on, uh, ladies and gentlemen, we're anchored to the ground, I can't even literally it won't budge

0:05:57 Tom: So I'm... So I...

0:05:56 Eli: Tilted I've had the engines going full blast for the last seven minutes, we're just sitting here

0:06:01 Tom: I'm setting this scene because then the thing I do is I take off sprinting down the Sydney airport. Cause I am terrified that I'm going to get stuck in this long security line or the long, like international, you know, fucking leaving the country line or whatever. I don't know this airport. So I'm running as fast as I can run. I'm at least now 300 plus pounds of just kinetic energy, right?

0:06:25 Tom: Like one half mass times velocity squared. My velocity is cruising, and my mass has increased, we are, I am full, I just and I'm a hundred percent sprinting right, and

0:06:25 Eli: Right

0:06:34 Thomas: A bunch of scientists are waiting to see like what you hit, maybe we'll find the Higgs boson maybe

0:06:37 Eli: Breaking the sound barrier, yeah oh

0:06:40 Tom: Not far off because I sent someone to the god particle, so I'm Running full blast, no, I'm just pouring sweat balls out, I am not going to miss this fucking flight, I'm sprinting down this thing, bags are bouncing all over, fucking backpacks bouncing, there was a crowd of people and a small middle-aged man of Asian descent takes a step backward at exactly the wrong time from his group And I ran into that man, with no, I didn't even try to stop, it's like, you know, in driver's ed where they're like, look, if it's an animal smaller than a moose, you don't hit the

0:06:43 Thomas: Drive

0:06:44 Eli: No yep

0:07:14 Thomas: Through

0:07:14 Tom: Brakes like just there was no way like

0:07:14 Eli: Yeah

0:07:14 Thomas: It harder yeah did did you used to hear that because I live in deer country, I, that's like a redneck, you think, you know, if you're gonna hit a deer, they said just drive through it harder, like you want to just go through, which cannot be right, like there's no what

0:07:19 Eli: Absolutely

0:07:24 Tom: Just hit it harder, no that that's not how not how physics can possibly work What, what, what, no, so I hit this man full broadside with my chest, so, like, this man's shoulder collides with my chest, it slows me down a quarter mile an hour, I mean, like, he was small, and he went, and guys I'm not even kidding that man just went away, I don't know where he went because I didn't slow down and I didn't look back, I didn't apologize, I didn't check to see if he lived I just was like, I'm not missing this flight, so

0:07:29 Eli: Is not right absolutely is not correct

0:07:30 Thomas: Would that logic be I don't understand he's a fly on Tom's face like oh

0:07:52 Eli: Yup under the wheels nope someone

0:08:01 Thomas: God

0:08:01 Tom: This poor man takes a step back and he just is gone now as far as I'm concerned, I don't t know and

0:08:08 Eli: Else

0:08:02 Thomas: Oh my God disintegrated yeah like a bird going through the engine yeah

0:08:10 Eli: Someone else in a podcast in Australia is telling the story of how their grandpa died right now and they're, I think it was a white rhino like someone had laid in a white rhino down with drugs

0:08:17 Tom: Some fucking tourist just body checked grandpa to this To the moon

0:08:22 Thomas: Oh god First off, I want to say, who in the world would talk this much about fucking air travel bullshit, I'm so boring, Tom, I can't believe you do that, secondly I just realized that I have a story that's not at all that, because that's, that's Tom's story, so that's just, nobody, nobody has Tom stories but I just realize long ago when might've been the first time we traveled with Phoebe. I believe it was, I had something happen that in retrospect, I just remembered it the other month when I was in an airport. Cause like, it just reminded me and it was a perfect like metaphor for something here. Let me tell you this. I, we were waiting for our flight in the little, gate.

You That's we're managing a baby obviously because Phoebe was our little baby then and she I can't remember how it happened but we had a carry a small carry -on you know, with a little handle, the extendy handle thing, right, that was out and it was just sitting next to us and somehow either phoe Bebe knocked it over or maybe when I was trying somehow phoe be was involved.

I don't know if I was trying to like do something with Phoebe and I knocked it, tipped over the little carry -On now with like not much in it. And it's got the fucking extendy handle and the extendy handle hits this older lady in the knee. I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. Shoot. You know? And I think in

0:08:34 Eli: Yeah

0:08:43 Tom: The She go

0:09:40 Thomas: My mind, well, in my mind, I'm Like, okay, this four pound thing just kind of tapped a woman's knee. Like, all right, big deal. So I'm I'm so sorry. The, you know, the baby that you can obviously see that was, you know, cause of this. And she's like, ah, and then, you minutes go by, whatever, 30 seconds, a couple of minutes. And she's really making a production of how much this hurts. And in my mind, I'm like, what the f... Cause I don't, you never, you know those people who are going to fucking milk it for whatever and just be an asshole.

0:09:41 Tom: Down Like a world cup soccer player Oh.

0:10:08 Tom: Yeah. Oh.

0:10:08 Thomas: So this looks to my mind like a nice old, not, not geriatric old, but like just, you Know, a nice lady in her fifties or so. I's And just doing the math. Like I'm my brain is doing the calculations, the profiling. I'm Like, what are the odds that this is that piece of shit. And so I'm just confused at this point. I'm like, I need more info. You know, and she's still, I was like, this is, it couldn't have hurt that bad. I could, there's nothing like it's, there's no weight to it. There's no anything. So I'm like, what, what is the situation? And finally she's like, oh, I just had surgery on this knee. And I

0:09:43 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Of course oh

0:10:09 Tom: Yeah

0:10:37 Eli: No

0:10:37 Thomas: Was Like, oh my God. And we were already, by the way, we're trying to do anything. We're like, can we help you? This all happened actually pretty fast. What can we do? You know? And there's not, what could we fucking do? I was, I, I do you want ice? I'll run and get ice. Have you ever tried to find ice in an airport? It was actually impossible.

0:10:38 Eli: Yes

0:10:53 Thomas: There was no, no, there

0:10:52 Eli: There's no ice on the planet. I don't know if you know that there's nowhere

0:10:55 Thomas: Was no it's gone. Yeah. I went to a Starbucks. They're like, the ice caps are melted. We can't give you ice. Like, damn. Yeah, you're right. And I'm finding ice. I couldn't find anything. And she just was like, I so bad. Cause I'm like, wow. On one hand, this was absolutely nothing. On the other hand, you had a preexisting thing. So of course, and at a certain point she just, you know, we're were trying to help. And she just did the thing of like, I just don't want to be around you anymore, you know, which I'm like, all right, yeah, I get it. You know, we Accidentally hit your surgery leg. She just kind of moved to a different area. She's like, ah, it's all right. You know? And I thought it was a really interesting metaphor. It's like this thing wasn't a big, like, really, if it was an otherwise healthy person, this was a nothing. It would have been like, oh, bonked you a little bit.

But like, because she had a preexisting trauma, it was was like a huge deal and the way she dealt with it was like she wasn't super mad at us, but at the same time she was like, I just need to not be around the people that caused this, even though it was an accident, you know.

And I was like, that's a really, I don't know, something about it was like, yeah, that that's all it's, it's a situation where no one did anything wrong and yet it just can't really be around each other, you know. It was interesting. Yeah.

0:10:55 Eli: Yeah. Interesting.

0:11:21 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:12:04 Tom: Have you ever killed anybody in an airport or broken their fucking kneecaps like Thomas' kids?

0:12:07 Eli: I so I have a classic Eli story, which is of course me being lazy or not paying attention and almost killing someone. So me and Anna are in Ireland and we're staying in this adorable hotel and let me tell you something, they don't warn you about out when it comes to adorable hotels, um, they are bad. Whenever you see something adorable and you're like, why don't all hotels have this? It's because they're unsafe or impractical in ways that hotel people have thought of that you haven't.

0:12:08 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:12:36 Eli: And so one of the ways in which this hotel is adorable, it is, it has an absolutely gorgeous spiral staircase that goes from the lobby up to the, like the small first floor lobby, up to like the second floor lobby, or as the Brits would call it, first floor lobby, because that's fucking confusing and shit, um, which has like all the nice shit in the chandeliers and the fountains and stuff. And so I have the luggage cart, which now, this is, I should say, pre me and Anna learning how to travel, this was actually our honeymoon. Now, me and Annie, Tom, you said you were like, oh, we were traveling for three and a half weeks. Now three and half weeks, backpack, four months, backpack, 17 years, backpack, it's just you get one fucking backpack no matter where we're going, for how long, we buy clothes wherever we're doing it, is backpack o'clock no matter where we travel or when, but this is before that, so we have baggage and I'm going up the spiral stairs. Now you're probably thinking to yourself, Eli, did you ask if there was an elevator? Wait, for it. So

0:13:21 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:13:38 Eli: I'm going Yeah, I'm going up the spiral stairs um, Anna is pushing it to like help me up the stairs and I can tell she's like kind of losing it. You yeah, exactly. So she's kind of losing it, I don't know if you've been in that situation where you're moving something with someone who is losing control of it and they're going to hurt themselves, so you're just like, hey, go away. Just go away.

0:13:37 Thomas: It's a spiral elevator. Yeah, no. Spins around. Yeah.

0:13:39 Tom: A la willy wonka

0:13:51 Thomas: Would make your wife lift something heavy. Unbelievable. Can't do a podcast with you guys anymore.

0:14:00 Tom: Oh yeah

0:14:06 Thomas: Oof. Yeah!

0:14:10 Eli: Now I don't, I see the future and the future is you getting hurt. So let's just leave me alone with this. So she goes up the stairs that's

0:14:11 Tom: Well Thomas has never actually had anyone help him move anything ever like so So, yeah, this refrig...

0:14:19 Eli: True yeah, no I

0:14:19 Thomas: Except my poor wife. Yeah except my poor wife who was crushed to death.

0:14:20 Eli: Get except for your pregnant wife exactly

0:14:23 Thomas: Yeah. How dare you.

0:14:24 Eli: Yeah so I'm, I'm like, I'm doing it by myself and I get, like, I am two or three steps from the top of the stairs and I have no idea what crossed this young lady's mind, but young a lady decides I am going to walk past you and puts her hand on my back, which just unstabilizes me enough to tilt forward and and lose control of the luggage cart down to this beautiful spiral staircase.

0:14:32 Tom: Oh, God.

0:14:59 Eli: Now, I'm not kidding. Thank goodness there was nobody else on that staircase, because this was two suitcases and, yeah, absolutely.

0:14:46 Thomas: Oh wow. Wow. Oh, they would have been tommed. They would have burned, burned, striked.

0:15:08 Eli: I'm just picturing that Asian guy, like, he gets out of recovery and he goes on a nice vacation with his wife. Let's go have a drink in the bar where we first... Oh, not again!

0:15:15 Thomas: No, picturing him. He's been in a blank white matrix void this whole time. And then like your luggage cart runs over some poor lady. It's like she zaps in there. Whoa, where are we? Yeah. Did you get melted by some asshole podcaster? Yeah, just totally eviscerated.

0:15:24 Tom: Oh, my God.

0:15:23 Eli: Right. Right. Yeah, but yeah, it goes flying down the stairs like, Everyone in the country Ireland is staring at me. And I also had this experience, and I really hope this is shared.

0:15:38 Tom: Oh. Oh. It's like a fucking Indiana Jones boulder at this

0:15:46 Eli: Exactly.

0:15:46 Tom: Point.

0:15:48 Eli: Where someone has done the thing to cause the problem, and they just walk away. So you have to be like, It was actually that young woman's fault. I know she's just walking downstairs, and I was holding it, and I'm sweaty, and it was very obviously my thing but I I promise you we should all I'm staring at her if you will all join me in the her staring no okay I'm gonna go get my luggage examine the hot girl costume. Exactly, it's funny, you know, Thomas, as I, I'm glad I got to share that story, but I'm reflecting on the one that you just told, because, uh, I think that is actually very relevant to mental health. And the joke I almost made when you finished that story is, yes, but what, what if TikTok had just convinced her she had knee surgery and

0:15:51 Thomas: Yep. Oh, wow. Wow. So we're all trying to find the guy who did this.

0:16:33 Tom: Right.

0:16:33 Eli: She hadn't actually had it? So I think that's an exit.

0:16:35 Thomas: And what you need to do is yell at me for like an hour. Yeah, that would be. Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to talk about This is one I've been wanting to do for, but I've really wanted to kind of get this topic off my chest for a while, and it really was crazy how much an Eli story from last episode or one before what mirrored what I was kind of going through, and I had no idea.

So, to shortly after the birth of Phoebe, that while I've always been an emotional guy, you know, somewhat well, I say that, I haven't always been an emotional guy. Was I raised to be completely stoic and never show emotion of any kind. Otherwise, I'm making a big deal of something, and I should just go that was how I was raised.

And so, in some ways, it's, um, part of kind of the ongoing, I don't know, like transformation I've had to do to myself is to open up in that way. And now, I, now I, I'm sure Tom would say I've opened up too much. I've got too many, too many emotions. I need to close back up a little bit.

0:16:39 Eli: Exactly. Yeah.

0:17:34 Tom: You know,

0:17:34 Thomas: No, I'm just teasing you.

0:17:35 Tom: Maybe if anyone can see or notice them, that's when they're a problem. You know? Like, including you. Including You. You know. Know. So,

0:17:38 Eli: Yeah.

0:17:37 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I just, yeah, no. And, And so I've, I've gotten, I вe come all the way to where, you know, if we were ever watching a sad movie or something, which we wouldn't much, but if, if we, we were watching TV with my dad and it was some, some sad emotional situation, he would just ridicule it to the point where it's like, you know, it becomes funny. Like, he could, he was incapable of being in any sort of like emotional state like that around anyone else. And so that was the pattern, is like anything that was at all serious, you just make tons of jokes about it until it was, was funny, which is not like the worst thing, but to do it a hundred percent of all the time, I think is pretty harmful. Um, that's what I was raised with, but I've embraced not that, and I proudly am like, oh, this movie makes me cry and I don't care if some other dude is like, oh, you're crying, I don't give a shit anymore. Yeah.

0:18:23 Tom: Did he do that as cover for his own, like, what I'm wondering is, did he do to make fun of things so that he wouldn't feel the feeling? You think that he was like that he would not feel comfortable expressing? You know, when I was a heavy kid, I'll, this just reminds me of like a trick I used to do when I was heavy, when I was, when I was real heavy and I would get winded all, all the time, and I never wanted to show anybody that the, the heavy guy was winded, huffing and puffing.

So I'd climb up the stairs or do whatever it was that I was doing, and I was, you know, 300 pounds, and I would be, instead of huffling and puffing, I would make a great show of yawning, and by yawning I could suck in a bunch of air and not look like I was, you know, gasping and dying, and because I was afraid to show everybody that, like, like, yeah, the heavy guy is out of breath, isn't that typical, right? And so I'm wondering if, kind of in an analogous way, your dad was really feeling all of those feelings because

0:18:37 Thomas: Not Sure, I Possible, I've actually kind of wondered about that myself. I don't know. It's hard because he also was just so... Yeah, I think that might be part of it, but it's also combining that with just how much pathologically he couldn't show any sort of vulnerability to us at all. I think there is something to that, because I'm remembering, like, after he had the stroke, he went through like a year where he was, like, he got, got emotional a few times around me. It was the most uncomfortable thing of my life. Like, I couldn't even handle it, because it was, you know, like so against precedent of any kind.

0:19:58 Eli: Sure.

0:19:58 Tom: It was so out of character.

0:19:59 Eli: Yeah.

0:19:59 Thomas: Yeah. And so, so maybe that meant it was always there, but then after the stroke, that kind of, you Know, weakened his ability to, you like contain it a little bit. I'm not sure.

0:20:08 Eli: The other angle on that is, like, either he was covering his emotions, or a lot of the time when people don't experience that because they have problems with empathy, they mock it because they don't want anyone to notice that they're not experiencing emotions appropriate to a situation or a television show.

0:20:21 Thomas: Yeah. I, I'm not sure which, it's, it'd be interesting to know. But anyway, the point of all, all that is, shortly after having Phoebe, I, a certain movie that we were watching, and it, can't talk about it really because it's, I have to be able to get through the recording. Certain movie there, I was watching with Lydia, and a part of it was making me cry so badly that it entered a new level. Um, I've never experienced, I was just like, you know, I cry in movies all the time, but this was like, oh no, this is, this is not like, oh, I'm crying, this is like, oh, something's wrong, you know.

0:20:56 Eli: Yeah.

0:20:56 Thomas: Like, I couldn't even, and it put me in a depression for two weeks just from having like this, yeah, it's because certain things are just so important to me now that, like, anything that, like, makes me feel certain possible feelings about losing them is so devastating. I can't, I have to, I can't deal with it. Like, I can't. Anyway, the point is that happened, and then it turned out there's unfortunately one other movie it happened with, and I don't, I never know this ahead of time. And this time I, I, we had taken the kids to the theater. So we're in the theater watching this movie, and we get to certain parts.

There's a new movie, I don't know what's in it, you know, know, I have no warning, and I'm sitting with my kid on my lap, you know, and I, and it's happening again, I'm like, no, my God, this is, I can't do that, I'm, and I am, I'm trying so hard, I'm like, sob, I'm just really, and Lydia notices that I am just like losing it, like I am crying so much and just like trying to contain it, and so she, like, takes, you know, whoever was Arlo or Phoebe, off my lap, and is like, hey, let me take, you know, so that I can just kind had to deal with it on my own. And what's funny is I thought this would be kind of funny. They're both, I think they're both Pixar movies, but they're

0:21:01 Tom: Holy shit.

0:22:13 Eli: Right.

0:22:13 Thomas: Not, I bet you they're Not the ones you'd think. Like I watch the beginning of up and I cry my eyes out, but that's like a normal, like, Oh, that's devastating.

0:22:22 Eli: You're fine. Yeah.

0:22:23 Thomas: Yeah. Like, that's really sad. Like, I'm crying hard in up, but I'm doing that like in person, you know. Fucking

0:22:29 Tom: But most people don't cry so much during The Incredibles. Like, that was a little bit. Yeah. Cars 2 was a weird one to really, like, break out the.

0:22:33 Thomas: Love that Movie, yeah. But Mater Did that? No, I don't. And yeah, and so I'm not gonna say what they are, I can't, but it just was funny, I was thinking like, yeah, it's not Up, I'll tell you that. Uh, and then it turns out there's also another one too, um, that really gets me. So there's three movies, that the point of all this is that was all fine and good, that I saw these movies, um, one put me in a depression for a while, that sucked, I got through it, um, I was like, all right, just won't watch those movies, of course, you know, like, I just not gonna be able to do that until around the year '20, whatever it was, '17, when Disney Plus came into the picture, and Now Now there's The ability For The kids.

They're all there. The kids want to watch all of them. I start telling Lydia, okay, she already kind of knows, but I'm like, hey, I can't, I don't know, I can have this on, like I can. And what reminded me of it is Eli talking about the book with his dad and the, you know, those kinds of things, it's, it was, it's pretty much that. I just told Lydia, I was like, we can't do it.

And so what was funny is sometimes it'd be like, oh, I'm about to go somewhere else, anyway, I'm about to go work, I'm about to do whatever, so yeah, like they, if they just asked like, hey, I want to watch this movie to Lydia, I'll be like, yeah, go ahead, yeah, they can, I'll go somewhere else, they can watch it, you know, kind of thing.

So, and in my mind, here's what's happening, in my mine, in my mind, I'm like, well, for the rest of my life, or at least until a certain age where I decide I want to have this conversation, I will just do everything I can to never be in that situation and the kids will never know about it, that

0:23:10 Eli: Oh, God. They're all there.

0:23:11 Tom: Oh, no.

0:24:03 Eli: Yeah.

0:24:03 Thomas: Was in my mind, that was what was happening, I was like, I will just silently never ever watch these movies and no one will be the wiser. Maybe someday my brain chemistry will change and it won't be as big a deal, I don't know, like I'll just, I'll just go through that. And, but I hadn't said any of that out loud, that was just what I had assumed we were doing until Phoebe at got old enough or asked or something, why can't we watch this movie or whatever? One time to Lydia, and Lydia's like, oh, it just makes dad too sad. I was like, what? You're just telling the facts of things to our kids? That's weird. And so it was

0:24:32 Eli: What? Snitch? I'm telling Tom on you. I'm talking to you. I'm calling Tom on you.

0:24:46 Thomas: It was a weird experience to go from, oh, I thought I communicated it. It's obviously my fault. Or also maybe this is the right way to do things. I don't know.

So I just went from like, no, I was just going to of silently leave the room and never, and there were a couple times where I, to like turn off the movies before it got to the part, like they were watching the movie, and the thing with kids is like, yes, that can be a catastrophe, but also they could just not care. So I'd like try to, hey, let's do this now, and then, you know, try to distract them from it.

And so then just said it was, and Phoebe is so smart and perceptive, she has picked, she knows all the movies, like, like, without telling, I never told her which ones they were. She just has picked out like, oh, we can't watch this, we can't wash this, and we can wash this. And I was like, well, you definitely can. I just, I can't. And so it got me thinking, how, that what I should be doing, or should I be just keeping it from?

It's a weird, uncomfortable thing. I can't be in the room with these movies are on and the kids, cause it's just too devastating. Like, I can, I just cannot do it. Let alone with the kids just by myself. I canít do it because I don't want to be in that mind space. It puts, it could really put me in a depression, but it was so interesting to have Lydia just tell them, and then now they're like, yeah, we can't watch this because it makes you sad.

But in my mind I'm like, well, but it's not, you're not old enough to understand that, it's just that it makes me sad, you know, because, like, that's because, what happened was, of course, Phoebe started imitating it, she'd be like, I can't wash that one, makes me too sad. I was like, yeah, I know, you're just imitating what I'm

0:26:13 Eli: Right.

0:26:14 Thomas: I'm doing. But like, I, you know what I mean? There's, I know this is an awful mess, but I was curious for your thoughts on this whole situation.

0:26:19 Eli: No, absolutely. Because Thomas, you've got three Pixar movies. I have nine Hundred and fifty sentences. I cannot say I'll give you, I'll gives you a great example of this. OK, so we're recording this early December tonight. Tonight, me and Tom are recording Citation Needed. It's my turn to do an essay. I'm doing an essay about modern art, right? Bad modern art. Right. And I got all these bad pieces. And when I came up with the idea for the essay, I was like, oh, you know, it'll be fun. I'll include this one that I really like at the end. But the story of that piece of art is sad. So I wrote the essay, and then I wrote the part at the end, and I realized I would be incapable of telling the last part without hysterically sobbing during Me and Tom's comedy podcast, right, where it'd be like, oh, I hope nobody fucks Heath's mom, and then

0:26:25 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:27:12 Thomas: Oh man. I would love that so much.

0:27:13 Eli: All Of A sudden I would be like, and then Right, the other thing is like, kids don't have, hopefully don't Have depression, so they don't understand when they're, when you're like, hey, that makes daddy sad, it's Not like, like when you are Sad

0:27:23 Thomas: Yeah exactly. Yeah they're putting it to their terms. Yeah and so right

0:27:31 Eli: Right You're experiencing a nice happy Healthy sad, right, that You get over, because your brain, your brain goes, oh, we need some dopamine, right? Most people watch sad movies and they go, oh gee willikers, I can't believe the lady died at the beginning of Up, oh man. And then their, their eyes do the leaking thing, and their brain goes, it's just a movie or whatever. And then they go to do to do and they have a thing. Whereas our brains go, keep thinking about it. Keep the no keep keep thinking about it and then your breath is like, I forgot how I work. I forgot How I work and your eyes are just like explode. Get it all out every all the liquid that we've ever had ever and your nose is like I'm on it. Don't worry. And it's like you're not eyes and it's like I am today bitches.

0:27:38 Thomas: Yeah Yeah. Yep.

0:28:18 Thomas: Yeah. That's the only thing. And I can't remember how much I talked to Lydia about this. I thinkI did express like, Hey, that kind of caught me by surprise that you, told you them that, you know, and we communicated about it, but that was, that's the one thing I'm worried about. On one hand, I love having Lydia as a proper barometer for like what a human being would think or do. Like, I Love that. Cause she's just a better person in every way and doesn't have the trauma, you know? So I, so on one hand I'm like, okay, yeah, you just say it makes me too sad. On the other hand, I didn't like that very fact, Eli, that you just mentioned that now Phoebe thinks that you can't watch things that are sad or something, you know? And I just, I tried to explain it's hard, but you know, how do you explain that to a a toddler. Like I, yeah, yeah.

0:28:54 Eli: Right. You can't, you can't contextualize for kids and you, and the worst thing you can do is put that weight on their shoulders, right? Blank Makes me sad is could be right. Not always, but could be really heavy baggage, especially when it comes to your kids. Cause sometimes it's their behavior, right. Sometimes it's something they say or do. Right? And so you make me sad, that's a lot for a kid to carry if your version of sad isn't normal Or healthy.

0:29:05 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah.

0:29:06 Tom: Yep.

0:29:26 Eli: Right. My house, like, we just call it out right away because, I, it's just too common, right? Like I've mentioned before, I get crying jags, um, be no way of hiding it from from Max once he's able to vocalize, so it's, we're just like, "Daddy's a silly goose," and I just walk out of the the room, or "Daddy's a silly moose," and I walk out of the room, but like, you know, this isn't on you and this isn't normal is something really really important to convey to kids in those moments, uh, As it's okay to validate your feelings, right? Because it, of one the hardest things about mental illness is saying to your family, like, "Hey, your feelings are valid, I love you, when you're sad tell me, I'll cry with you, when your happy, I'll laugh with you." My feelings are not always valid, right?

0:29:26 Tom: Yeah.

0:29:55 Thomas: Oh God.

0:30:12 Eli: Like sometimes we're gonna have to ignore daddy's feelings Because they're based on a lack of receptor hogen in daddy's brain, right? Like there's just not enough, you remember, inside there's not enough of the the yellow balls getting into daddy's brain, so I'm really gonna need you to just ignore me right when I cry at the last phrase of uh Lay Mrs Where Grow or at the end of Do You Want to Build a Snowman or in the middle of fucking what's the one in Kanto, right, or fucking uh Joe God, so many of them, there's so many

0:30:16 Tom: You're

0:30:49 Thomas: Stop

0:30:49 Eli: Of Them right.

0:30:49 Thomas: Naming things.

0:30:50 Eli: And they're so Many Fucking That Folgers Commercial with a brother and sister fucking each other, like, any of it, you know, dad?

0:30:52 Tom: Gonna hit one by Accident. Wow.

0:30:50 Thomas: No, I'm just kidding. Oh God, yeah where were you when you introduced your kids to that commercial? That's a tradition. You know, holiday season, let's Talk about that. Pin in that, holiday traditions, like, you know, know, watching the Folgers If You

0:31:02 Eli: Oh, The Viewing Yeah. Of of the Folgers commercial, of course.

0:31:13 Thomas: Don't know what we're talking about? Google it.

0:31:15 Tom: I want to return to something that you had mentioned, uh, because I, I think one the worries that you have, that I don't know how to say this right, but one of the worries that you have is, is about, uh, mimicking that behavior, right?

Like, "Oh, I don't want to watch that because that's sad, that'll make me sad," thinkthat is a really good instinct that youhave and I think it's a really good impulse, and I know, like, I'm going to come across like, like I am incredibly stoic, I'm not, I'm super emotionally available to my kids, I promise, but I can be, I, I am emotionally available to my kids without being like very emotionally vulnerable. And I think you can do both of those things.

I think it's a good thing when they're little and you cannot contextualize that information for them, and they cannot find a space in their developing minds to hold those complex ideas around mental illness, a really good thing to move that into the other, the room, I completely agree with that, I think it's absolute, because, like, are pre -rational people, these are these are people whose entire self is an emotional self, they struggle, in their entire worldview is built on their own sense of emotional regulation, that's their job of growing up is learning that emotional self -regulation and then, you know, of course, like, like, the intellectual and development will follow along.

But they're just, like, wildly not in a place to, and this is kind of my joke in the beginning of the episode, but they're not in place to handle anybody else's baggage at all without bringing it in to themselves. Because that's how little kids, like, developmentally, that's how little kids understand the world. Everything flows through them. You know, like as adults, I think it's easy for us to to say, like, we can understand someone else's state of mind without experiencing that state of mine.

I don't believe that that's the case developmentally with little kids. And I do think we need to have a significant amount of space and distance, because you don't want to set them up to begin mimicking behaviors

0:33:21 Tom: That will then become maladaptive for them. Because maybe, they maybe they're going to live their whole lives without having depression, depression, maybe, maybe they will, because it is, is fairly genetically linked, maybe they will suffer from depression at Some point But You Don't You have no idea, but You don't want to hand them your baggage, because They're too young for it, so I do think that some amount of, and there's no better way to say it, hiding that emotional, that emotionality that, you know, is an irrational, and I'm using again words that I don't mean to connotate, but hyperbolic level of emotionality that are not contextually appropriate, you should hide that, I think that's a good impulse, Thomas.

0:33:33 Thomas: I Was Gonna Talk About that too. Yeah yeah. Totally. Yeah.

0:33:40 Eli: Exactly. Yeah.

0:34:00 Thomas: Think When it did come up, fortunately, I'm realizing as I'm saying this now, I don't think it's come up in a while, and that's mainly, more than anything, a function of the kids' fucking TV preferences currently. They just watch Bluey 24-7 and Bluey, ooh, that's got some moments, but nothing like that's like too horrible. I can just, you know, leave if it is. But when I, I think when I did talk to Phoebe about it, when it came up, I tried to do was just really lower the stakes, you know? So like if, if it came, I think she asked me about, I don't remember, it's been a while, but I triedto just be like, Like, oh yeah, no, it's just something about that. I just, you know, my brain gets a little too sad because I have, you know, and I just put it in, I tried to put it in like the lightest possible.

0:34:00 Eli: Yeah. Oh, God.

0:34:13 Tom: Yeah.

0:34:41 Tom: You

0:34:41 Thomas: This is a thing specific to me and that's not a big deal for her. Like I wanted to, like, it is a big deal for me, but I wanted to like make it not be a big impact for her, I wanted to just be like any other, oh, yeah, I just have, you know I have like an owie in my brain or, you know, something like that where it's like, ah, you need to dwell on this forever, but you you mentioned, I am very worried about Phoebe and depression. I'm keeping an eye out on it. I don't know, but she, gosh, one of the sweetest little stories of Phoebe is, do you know the, the, the five little ducks went out one day song.

0:35:11 Eli: Yeah, of Course.

0:35:12 Thomas: So early on, she's, you early, 'cause she could talk pretty early, that was one she wanted to sing. And it, I might've been like a YouTube version of the song, I can't remember one way or the other, she's, we're seeing five little ducks went out one day, you know, over the hill and far away, with that mother duck said quack, quack, whatever, four little ducks, and then gets, no, none of the, the five little ducks came back, and the YouTube song changes the music so that it's sad sounding, and Phoebe loses it, like she was a baby almost, and she was losing it at this, like she would go from like, oh, we're seeing this song, to like, she's crying and her big eyes just well up in the, like Lydia and I were just, our hearts were broken, we couldn't even handle it, because she was so sad that the mother duck couldn't find the other ducks, you know?

And it It was just, it was just that kind of thing where it's like, this was such a big emotion and she did, would do it every time the song came up. But we'd ask her like, do you want to just not do the song? She'd be like, no, I want to do it. You know, cause

0:36:07 Thomas: She still wanted to go through the process. Oh man.

0:35:56 Eli: Mm -hmm. Mm -mm. I want to go through the experience. I have

0:36:11 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:11 Tom: Know I old was she, Thomas? You

0:36:14 Thomas: Oh my God. She probably was still in her ones, you know? I mean, she was, yeah.

0:36:18 Tom: That you're just developmentally, that's super appropriate, like that's, that's super appropriate, that's, you know, there's huge amount of emotional experimentation that kids have to go through and experience. That's part of their normal emotional and psychological development, so

0:36:22 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:35 Thomas: I, it's hard to communicate, you you're with your kid 24 seven. It's Um, harder to communicate all the context, but Phoebe has some, some challenges that I keeping an eye on, you Know, like it there.

0:36:41 Tom: Oh yeah, I'm not saying you shouldn't. I was just trying to put that one to bed, you know, just say, like, hey, I think that one's all right. So

0:36:46 Thomas: Yeah, sure. Sure. Oh yeah. No, if it was just that I'm not, yeah, that's just, she might be, I think she, I mean, I really think she might just be an empathy sponge. Like she just is so she's always been so reactive in certain ways that way, way. Like just so emotionally reactive to yeah.

0:37:01 Tom: That's Finn that's, that's fitting it on my side. Finn is just a deeply, deeply empathetic, emotionally intelligent young man, like, and he has been since he was like a little guy. Like a very little guy. So sure.

0:37:02 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, hide lesson from Tom is hide every emotion you've ever had from your kids and never. So the reason I brought that up is, one hesitation about, like, oh, not, you know, not hiding it, not sharing it, is if maybe it is the case that one of my kids or both of them have those issues, it might be good to be communicative about what I'm going through so that, you easier to put it into context for them, if they happen to be going through the same thing. As you say, Tom, it seems to be pretty genetic. So, like, odds are they might go through a similar thing. So in that, that way, I do kind of want to be communicative about it.

0:37:17 Eli: Well,

0:37:50 Tom: Think this is a really age appropriate answer. Like, I think, I think age makes an enormous difference in how and when we expose our personal failings and vulnerabilities to our kids. I And I think that age, in my opinion, that age is much later than it is sooner, much, much later than it ist sooner, because I, knowing what I know about, like, childhood development in psychology, because I did go to school and have a minor in education, so, like, that was a significant portion of my education, like, knowing what I know about that, like, that is not a space kids can, I think, functionally hold and safely and emotionally hold for other people, and they shouldn't hold it specifically for their caregivers, and I do think that there's a significant and real and problematic danger of asking your children in any way to be your emotional caregiver, and this is something that happens, and I've, I have firsthand experience, I've seen this very closely where people have mental illness.

And without thinking about it, the dynamic in the relationship between the parent and the child changes. So the child becomes a significant emotional caregiver to their mentally ill parent. And that is a horrifying, toxic relationship. They're there to be a sounding board, like, your kids are not there. And I know that's not what you're suggesting at

0:37:53 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah,

0:38:35 Eli: Yeah.

0:39:14 Tom: All, but I think it's a real slippery slope.

0:39:14 Thomas: I was going to say, yeah. Mm

0:39:14 Eli: Yeah.

0:39:16 Tom: And it's really age dependent on when there's an emotionally appropriate showing of that vulnerability in a way that's useful to them we only should show that to our kids if it's valuable to them I think we should not show that To Our Kids If It's Valuable Only To Us yep

0:39:17 Thomas: Hmm. Mm-hmm,

0:39:35 Eli: And And I, I want To add to this is that there is a big cultural touchstone right now of radical vulnerability, right? And acceptance and openness and honesty, and look, that is good in a lot of ways. But if you are putting how much you hate being a parent on TikTok, and your kid sees that. Um, if you are putting that out into the world and your kid's absorbing it, it's doing real and lasting damage.

0:39:42 Tom: Fuck that what

0:39:54 Thomas: Oh, fuck, no.

0:40:02 Tom: About if you have a podcast called Dear Old Dads and you're one of the three and you know yes

0:40:03 Eli: Exactly yeah, I'm interrupting myself, or you or Tom, I'm interpreting someone, because we're going to finish this conversation in part two. I think it was a great conversation, but we're We're going to finish him.

0:40:17 Thomas: Well, turns out we had a lot to say who would have thought and can I just say while While we're talking the meta, what we're doing, Eli has a story coming up, a bonus story that I am so fucking pumped for that. I'm just let me say you might want to go on patreon.com/dearolddads, because my God, I cannot wait for the story.

0:40:26 Eli: Turns out there's a lot to say about mental health. Yeah.

0:40:26 Tom: Imagine that oh

0:40:43 Eli: If there's ever been a week when you want to give us a dollar, it's No Nut November. All right. But gentlemen, before we go, important question. What does Jeff Bezos do before bed? Puts his pajamas on. All

0:40:50 Thomas: Or

0:40:58 Tom: Rough

0:41:06 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:41:45 Eli: Can I just say, hey, Thomas. First rule of podcasting. If you don't understand, laugh. Come on.

0:41:49 Thomas: But I get to edit, so it's better to understand, cut that part, and then fucking make it smooth in the edit. And then I got it, and we were all happy

0:41:57 Eli: I'm referencing this the whole time. I will not stop referencing this throughout the episode. I have a loop thing, a loop pedal attached to my Zoom right now. That's just gonna play this conversation in the background of my track the entire time?

0:41:58 Thomas: Yeah so yeah uh that's

0:42:09 Tom: So actually