You Can Have Information About Tom's Relationships When You Pry It From His Cold Dead Hands

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that can't remember if it's supposed to do an intro for the Q &A. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:31 Thomas: Hey.

0:00:38 Eli: Hello!

0:00:38 Thomas: Yo, ready?

0:00:40 Eli: November Q &A!

0:00:40 Tom: So So do I do an Intro? I can't Remember. Should I intro one?

0:00:44 Thomas: I think the reason we can't remember is we've gone back and forth when it's been a bonus episode. We don't, because, like, you joked that that was a little vacation of like not having to do it, but this is just, I think it's just like a normal episode Q&A. We'll have to discuss with the rules lawyers. We'll talk to the archivists to decide.

0:00:57 Tom: Okay. Well, I think it's also confusing because the Q and A, it makes it sound like we're going to get past the single Q. And so I can never remember what the rule is It feels like a thematic episode every time

0:01:07 Thomas: Wow.

0:01:09 Eli: Yup. I was gonna say, you know, this is a November Q & A that we're answering in November. This is very exciting, guys. Very exciting.

0:01:20 Thomas: New

0:01:21 Tom: This is like finishing Vulgarity for Charity In the same year you did it

0:01:21 Thomas: Personal record.

0:01:24 Eli: Right, yeah, the same decade.

0:01:25 Thomas: Let's not get crazy. Yeah. Get so hyper fixated on the dumbest things. Let me tell you. The episode numbering systems. I'm telling you, it matters so much to me for no reason. We talk about whether or not you do the intro or not you know it just made me think of that

0:01:37 Eli: Mm- -hmm. Yeah. If If I can part the curtain slightly for our listeners, um, on when we started recording, Thomas was like, oh, this will be session one, session two, and then he and Tom made a mistake and got off on their session numbers, and so I now just label our Zencasters with the date, and Thomas is in physically incapable of not going, so this is session 33, this would be, um, session, session 44. for just for anyone for all the people who would like to be correct in their session labels, session

0:02:00 Thomas: No, for anyone who still wants to yeah No, but you were, you were the one who didn't screw up, that's the funny thing, I, and I, then you got rid of the system, I was willing to, I

0:02:11 Eli: That's Right, I pulled, went real Tom and Tom's dad on this system. It's

0:02:19 Tom: There you go, it's good energy

0:02:20 Thomas: Recognize when I'm wrong, I converted back to your numbering system and everything, and so when I say it's session whatever, that's, you know, that's because You were right.

0:02:27 Eli: Too late. I already Threw

0:02:28 Thomas: You're three

0:02:28 Eli: You out, like a sad wooden duck, or a book, I was done with And

0:02:31 Tom: As a matter of canon, I obviously can't remember episode numbers. That's been established over 600 times. So why should it be any different on this show than any other show? So I just asked Thomas, Hey,

0:02:37 Eli: Of course, yeah.

0:02:43 Thomas: So the thing, the thing I wanted to say that's so funny about it is whenever we're figuring something out, like whether it's, you this know, show or like some of the changes we're doing on OA, where it's major important decisions, but I cannot do it until I first solve the completely not important thing of, okay, but are these, are the episode numbers? Do I, do I number these ones? Are these numbered episodes? Like I'll realize that I'm talking at length about these things that no one gives a shit about. Just

0:03:10 Tom: Well, Right, so for the cue, the first cue, this one comes from Adam, uh, this is, it's good to have, it's good to have a light one, uh, for the first one out of the gate, Adam, thank you, uh, have you ever resented your kids for how your life changed because of them?

0:03:18 Thomas: Yeah, sure. Nope. Nope. I think I cannot believe how much I love having these kids and how my life is so good with them. That's all. I'm not trying to be a dick. That'S all I think about now. Maybe will it change when they're older? I don't fucking know, but no, 0%. Sorry. You're not going to get that one from me.

0:03:42 Eli: Spectrum here because Thomas is a no, and it's always been no. I'm a no now, but was very much a yes when I was going through my postpartum depression. I might have told this story before. My mother loves to retell me this story. But when I Was Sort of In the Depths of My Postpartum, I was talking to mom on the phone and I was like, you know, I think when Max gets old enough, I need to tell him like how how bad he was for my life and how much he was bad.

0:03:50 Tom: What Why

0:04:08 Thomas: Nope. You do not need to do that.

0:04:10 Tom: Yeah.

0:04:11 Eli: And that's what my mom, my mom was like, no, I think you might just be dealing with stuff. And I was like no, I think it's, you know, just going to be honest.

0:04:15 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. No.

0:04:20 Eli: You know, I gotta think he deserves to know. But yeah, so when I was in that first three months, the newborn forest, yeah, absolutely. And it has gotten better every day since. And I am, I am now in the Thomas zone with a hard, hard no.

0:04:22 Tom: Yeah.

0:04:35 Tom: Want to parse the question a little bit. I've never resented my actual kids themselves, so because And I'm not just saying that because at some point they might listen to this and I don't want them, but but for real, like the actual people, the actual, like, I've never resanted Finn, like I'm never looked at Finn and been like fucking Thin, you know, like I've never looked at Amen and been like God damn Amen, you know, but like I'll be very real and say I think I stayed in a relationship longer than I would have because I had kids in that relationship, and so I was less willing to look at the the truth of my unhappiness within that relationship because, you know, now I was invested in a way that I felt at at the time did not give me as much latitude to make choices. And do think that like there have been some effects on my personal life as a result of my choice to have kids that different. It's different.

0:04:37 Thomas: Yeah, I was going to say that too.

0:05:25 Thomas: You're the kind of person who would be like the kids were your choice. Well actually I guess they were accidental.

0:05:29 Tom: Well, they're not really my choice because I didn't. Yeah.

0:05:31 Thomas: But it's not a thing you're I even the language of resenting your kids. I mean if you ever resent your kids for anything like that I feel like that's a major Now, you could regret choices you made. I mean, whatever. Humans, humans.

0:05:34 Tom: Right. Yes. That, and that's different than resenting

0:05:45 Thomas: Exactly. Humans are going to regret choices they made. But your kid didn't have itself. And resenting your kid for that is absolutely crazy. Sorry, I don't want to go after the listener here, but that's something that you really should not be doing. Like, if you regret the decision, yeah, I mean, people are going to regret decisions. That's going to happen.

0:05:45 Tom: Your kids. Yeah, yeah. Right.

0:06:03 Eli: Yeah. I don't think the listener was like, "You fucking hate your kids, fucking asshole." In this diaper all

0:06:08 Thomas: The question is, resented your kids? I mean... I don't know. I think some people do. I actually...

0:06:13 Eli: Right. You You know, what, you got him, Thomas.

0:06:15 Thomas: No, I think som e people do do this.

0:06:15 Tom: Yeah, I think, no, Thomas, I'm right there with you. I think there are some people who can't, they can't they don't have the emotional sophistication to separate the fact of like, man, my life changed in ways that made my life demonstrably less happy or demonstrabLY less like emotionally or financially or physically satisfying. You know, if you look at studies about happiness, studies about happiness are fairly clear and cross cross, cultural that like having kids very typically leads to less happiness, but like you do have to have the wherewithal emotionally to parse the why of that. And we're not just like saddle somebody who's only tangentially related to that decision. Cause it's your fucking call. It's not their fucking call, right? Whether or not they exist in the world, you remember when I was a kid going through some stuff with, mine, my mom and, and some difficulty. And I remember at the time thinking like, Hey man, I didn't choose to have me.

0:06:20 Thomas: They can't separate it. Yeah. Yeah.

0:07:12 Thomas: Yeah.

0:07:13 Tom: Like I am not the the problem here, you

0:07:13 Thomas: Yeah. Yep. Is your duty as a parent to separate those things. No one is telling. I will never tell anyone that they can't regret a decision or feel like their life was better, but absolutely you can feel all that you want, but you, I believe you have a duty as a parent to separate that shit from your actual kids. And never do what Eli said he was about to do, which is insane, which is put that it is we

0:07:30 Tom: You have to, yeah, oh

0:07:35 Eli: I was going through a thing and I would not do it. Oh,

0:07:38 Tom: My

0:07:40 Thomas: Totally, you could go through things. This had, I think it was a commenter in the group. I remember their name, but I also wouldn't say it just in case they wouldn't want to be on the wider show. Someone said they had this interaction with their parent, even as an adult, where their mom, I think it was, said something like they, you know, regretted the decision or whatever. And they did. But they did so in a way that was like I could almost empathize with the fact that the parent did it, because it was like, oh, they were being, it was an honesty conversation.

Like, it was the conversation was sort of framed in away that it would have been OK, as my memory of it, if it were any other thing. But I think this particular thing is too serious, like it's too potentially harmful to to a person, to have them learn like that they weren't wanted or that they were regretted. That maybe it wouldn't be a big deal, but also maybe it would be a really soul crushing thing to know. And that is not fucking worth risking for any amount of like, oh, honesty or openness with my kid. Just don't do not take that risk. There's the upside is not worth it. That's my piece, I guess.

0:08:00 Tom: God, yeah, and like, put the resentment, if you want to resent somebody for the way your life changed because you had children, you don't like it, you should resent yourself, you should be resentful of yourself, you are the decision maker in that process, and that would be okay, too, but to your point, Thomas, like, but resenting somebody else for a choice that they didn't make, that's fucking childish in and of itself, like that is emotionally insanely immature.

0:08:58 Thomas: Yeah.

0:09:08 Tom: It is yeah but I'm just, I just want to point it out like that, if anybody in our listenership is is tempted to think along those, keep in mind that like the only person who is responsible for that resentment is somebody who is a decision maker.

0:09:06 Thomas: It happens though. I know those people. Yeah, yeah, totally.

0:09:09 Eli: Yeah absolutely yeah yeah

0:09:22 Tom: So you cannot resent fairly someone who made no choices. That is that is a childish selfishness that you don't like. You should look inward and be like, that's poison, I'm full of poison, and you should fix that nonsense. I also think like spreading that kind of honesty is horrifying, like you should not tell your kids, like, we don't owe our kids a debt of like radical honesty, that's don't do that.

0:09:22 Thomas: Yeah yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:09:37 Eli: I you hit

0:09:48 Thomas: No, it's not worth it.

0:09:49 Tom: Oh,

0:09:49 Eli: The nail, that's literally the words that were about to come out of my mouth, Tom, you you hit the nail right on the head, which is this this notion of radical honesty, um, and like how important it is, and it's it's not, it's

0:09:57 Tom: No, yeah,

0:10:01 Thomas: Because it's funny. Like for me, I my family situation, whether or not my parents wanted me or regret it is literally nothing to me. Like, it just doesn't even. But like, it might be. And my point is just do not take that risk. The principle of radical honesty, to agree with you, Eli, is just silly and not worth that risk that it will be a major thing. Also, I wanted to like not give the impression that that there's never a time where like, oh, this particular thing would be different or even better without kids.

Like, for you example, from we're trying to plan a trip or do something and, and, I'm I'll say like, man, if, if we didn't have kids we could just fucking live in Europe for a summer. Like no one would, it wouldn't matter. But I, way I have those thoughts is no part of it for me anyway, just because I fucking love having kids. It's my favorite thing. It's just like another, like, okay, option. You know, it's just, it's like, oh, we didn't go there for dinner, oh, well, you know, like the place we went, I fucking love anyway. But like, I could have gone to this other place, you know, it's like that. There's no resentment or regret.

It's just like, yeah, it's true, this particular facet of my life, the freedom part would be different. Like the ability, the responsibilities would be less, the ability to do fun things like fuck off on a vacation for like ever, you know, that, that will never be the same until my kids are like totally grown. And that's fine.

That's like a downside, side, it's, it's I'm not pretending there's no, you sacrifice, there's of course a sacrifice, but to me it just pales in comparison to the everyday happiness I get, that that I have these kids, so that's how I think of it.

0:10:08 Eli: Yeah, sure, also, I mean, I don't know about you guys, but like, I traveled before I had kids, I traveled before I had kids, like, I I'm just picturing someone who doesn't have kids, and then towards the end of their life, when they finally have the money, after not having had kids and sacrificing that experience, fucking travels, and has the experience of travel that I've had, which is like, that's fine, it's fine, okay, it's it's uh, I wish I loved someone with my whole heart, um, but this food is sure good, do you sell bullets for dessert, do you have dessert bullets, no, yeah,

0:11:33 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, it's all right, kind of wish my kids were here, yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:11:53 Tom: Yeah, I, yeah, I something I want to just say about radical honesty, and I know you weren't saying this, but there is no principle to radical honesty, radical honesty is selfishness, it has nothing else. There is no, there's no underlying moral principle involved with radical honesty and radical honesty is a way to rebrand being selfish to the point of abusiveness. And it has absolutely no value in any type of relationship at all.

0:12:15 Eli: Yeah

0:12:31 Tom: Like just, it's gotta go. And everybody who espouses and like, is a fucking like ambassador for radical honesty is to a person, the worst person you've ever met. Like they're not somebody that you can trust. They're not Somebody you like, they're Not somebody that You like want around your children or around your spouse or, you know, to be your boss. They 'Re just the fucking worst. And there are no exceptions, none at all. So like, if you have this idea that radical honesty is something that you owe to your kids, or owe to someone else, or it's that somehow got some kind of principle to it, fucking throw that in the trash, that's garbage, it's a garbage idea.

0:12:30 Eli: Well,

0:12:30 Thomas: Yeah,

0:12:54 Eli: Yeah, and there's so much good writing on this. Sam Harris's book, you know, as much as Sam is problematic in a million ways, Sam Harris's book, "Lying," talks about this topic, too. And one of the things that he addresses is the sort of, the brand of radical honesty is defined by honesty when it's not necessary and harmful. Right, it's, that's that, and and it is also a sales technique, right, the the reason it is sort of grown into the internet culture is because it was like, ladies, let's be real, you're tired of makeup smearing on your pillow, but I'm gonna be radically honest and tell you, blah, right, that's where that branding comes from.

0:13:24 Tom: Yes,

0:13:43 Eli: Is the idea that like

0:13:25 Thomas: Oh, really, I thought it was just from internet dudes wanting to say shitty racist and sexist things, it's not that I'll

0:13:47 Eli: No, I think it comes much more from a

0:13:50 Thomas: Be radically honest, women just aren't as good at such things as men, like it's that shit, you don't think, yeah, that's what, that's why I thought

0:13:54 Eli: You know, you're right, Thomas, everything terrible on the internet does have a basis in dudes wanting to be sexist and racist so I'm gonna go with your answer rather than mine, uh, apologize to Maybelline. So this actually transitions really well into a question that I have very strong feelings about. This is from Bra Straps and Bitch Slaps, uh, who says, how open are you, or are you going to be with your children regarding your own traumas or unpleasant experiences, abusive parents, shitty grandparents, mental illness, divorce, in Tom's case, stuff like that?

0:14:01 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah. Yeah.

0:14:01 Tom: They're not wrong, uh,

0:14:28 Thomas: Whole episode.

0:14:29 Eli: Now,

0:14:29 Tom: Yeah, I'll, I'll start a little bit. I, I am not at all honest with my kids about most of that stuff. Um, it's not something I need for them to take on. Like that I had with my kid's mother, I would never in a million years talk openly or honestly or frankly with my kids about that process, what it meant to me, why it happened. None of that is theirs. They don't need to own any of that. They They don't need to try to process any of my thoughts or feelings on that. They have their own.

0:14:37 Thomas: That's interesting.

0:15:06 Thomas: Is there a balancing, though, if, if there might be components of the story that would help explain things for them, or would help put a proper context on it? You don't think so?

0:15:12 Tom: No, I don't. Yeah, no. I don't think so at all. At all. In that divorce for the kids is to help them understand their feelings and their place in it and to make them feel secure. Um is not in any way to provide for them context for a relationship they weren't part of so no, I don't think so at all.

0:15:31 Thomas: Huh?

0:15:35 Eli: Tom, when they grow up, assuming they're not, you, who has no follow-up questions for your crazy Hitler dad ever, about anything, including his weird mistress, um, they might want to know, you, like, they they may be curious about your lived experience of that, is it will you say no in that moment or interesting

0:15:41 Thomas: I

0:15:49 Tom: Yeah I would say no, I would SAY NO because would say no, because I don't care if I'm 60 years old and my son is 30 years old, I am not going to share with them an experience that paints their mother in a bad light. And there is no way for me to explain my relationship with their mom in a way that feels honest to me, and that is not potentially going to hurt their relationship with their mom. I won't do it.

0:16:19 Thomas: That's a, that's fine line. Put yourself in the position of, and I, I know many of our listeners have been in this position. Let's say you're a woman and you had an abusive husband. What's your do who still, by the way, gets to see the kids has some legal custody halftime or whatever it is. What do you, it's a fucking sticky situation. How would you feel about that, Tom? I feel like the same principle would tell you, You never tell your kids that their dad was abusive, but that feels wrong to me. I don't know. Maybe.

0:16:46 Tom: I don't know. Are they in danger? If they're in danger, then you share it. If they're not in danger, then you don't. And I think that, that's

0:16:53 Thomas: Yeah. It's hard to know, though. I don'T think it's that easy to know. You know, what

0:16:59 Tom: Yeah, I I think it's tough, I'm not saying that, I'm not saying my advice is like the advice everybody should use, but if the question is what would I do in my circumstances, I I would not I cannot see myself sharing that information, yeah.

0:17:11 Thomas: Danger context is interesting because what if it true was that like, again, it's going to put your partner in a bad light? And this is pure hypotheticals. What if you were in a divorce where your partner was very manipulative, maybe lied or whatever? And I strongly agree with the principle of not pitting parent children against not trying to do the shitty thing in a divorce of like trying to talk shit about the other parent in a situation where both parents are parenting. That's a terrible thing that I, I think strongly erring on the side of not doing that is very good. And I agree with that impulse, but at what point I wonder trying to draw that line of like, well, they may fall victim to some of this abusive kind of manipulative, maybe it's emotional abuse.

0:17:54 Thomas: At what point would it be more helpful to, for them to have their information, you know, have that information.

0:17:54 Tom: Yeah that I can speak to very directly yeah yeah that that I. I can speak to very directly and tell you that, with lived experience, I still would not share the particulars of my experience with them. But what I would do is ask them, and what I do with my 16-year-old son is I ask him a lot of questions. And some of those questions for sure are leading questions about how he feels about the way that he's treated in his life with respect to his relationship with his parent, and I him to think through those things by asking him strategic questions. But in there is absolutely no way that I would share my personal experience with his mother with him. There's no way. I wouldn't do it. You couldn't put a gun to my head and make me do it. No.

0:18:20 Thomas: Right.

0:18:48 Eli: It's, I ask why. I mean, again, feel free to always be like, no. But, uh, can I asked why because you've got such a foundational, like, opinion on this. I'm really interested why.

0:18:52 Tom: I Like, why I wouldn't share it with him. I

0:18:59 Eli: Because you said like, I would never say anything that would, um, make their mom look bad, but like, why, especially if their mom just, it, right?

0:19:06 Tom: Just think it's morally wrong to do. I, I have a moral issue with it. I think it's morally wrong to do. I think that's a relationship that I don't have. He, his relationship with his mom is an independent relationship for me, and it's not my job to influence that, that relationship. My feelings about his mom, my relationship with his mom, is independent of my relationship with him. It has no point of connection any longer. And it hasn't for many years. And by the time he's an adult, it won't have had any point of collection for decades with him. So it's, it's providing context that I think really satisfies curiosity rather than creates, creates anything that is needed emotionally. And I'm not going to satisfy his curiosity, either of the kids' curiosity, at the expense of what I consider to be a moral principle, which is that a relationship is between two people. The particular details of that relationship, particularly if they go bad, you don't air your dirty laundry with anyone. You just don't share the particulars I wouldn't

0:20:10 Thomas: With any. OK, that's interesting, because I when it come to co -parenting, I think I strongly agree with that impulse, even if I'm not sure if I draw the line at the same place.

0:20:18 Tom: Anyone Is too strong But you have to be extraordinarily careful. Would I Tell a handful of 2 or 3 people. Yeah, there's a handful of 2-3 people.

0:20:20 Thomas: Yeah. That's what I was going to ask. Yeah. Oh. No.

0:20:30 Tom: But that, no, I

0:20:31 Thomas: That apply to different relationships as well, because, like, when you say a relationship is between two people, I don't know that I apply that at all. I would apply that in a co -parenting thing. I think the parent kid relationship, especially in like a divorce, whatever, I think that's a very distinct and important thing. And I think, I think you're really wise, and honestly I think it's very, very moral to not do that, to do what you're doing and to not kind of anything that might poison that relationship that they have with their mom. I think that's, that's really good. Honestly, I'm not sure I would draw the line in the same place, but like that, but here's what I want to know. Does that apply in just like everyday relationship friendships of like, oh, you know, this person completely fucked me over, I'm going to never say anything about it? Or do you feel like it's okay to tell people who might, might prospectively get fucked over, or might, you know, like, is, do you apply this to more relationships than just a parenting relationship, or

0:20:59 Eli: Interesting. Can

0:21:19 Tom: Don't think I've ever had a friend fuck me over, so I don't know how I would respond to it. I

0:21:23 Thomas: Whatever, you know, just like whatever thing, the thing might be, I don't know, some minor version of that or no

0:21:24 Tom: I think I hold this position more, more starkly when it comes to more intimate relationships. More intimate relationships have greater emotional resonance to them, and more, like, yeah, they're just more intimate, and I, I that privacy to be reasonably sacrosanct.

0:21:44 Eli: I'm actually interested, can you explain to me why you might just be dealing with stuff. And I was like no, I think that's a good thing and why you admire it? Because I, maybe it's because I just grew up knowing so much about my parents' relationship, I was grown, you know, had a very open family, um, was told about the good, the bad, and the ugly between my parents, and that's sort of how I was raised, um, and Tom, you said before you, you think it's like a moral good. Can, can either of you go a little deeper on that? I'm not, I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, I'm just interested in sort of where that underlying moral core is. You can also just be like, that's what I think, and tell me to fuck myself. I

0:22:16 Tom: No, well, yeah.

0:22:17 Thomas: Me, it comes from like, and I'm not in the situation, so I, I obviously I think Tom's opinion matters a little more, but you, um, directed at me, uh, least at the beginning, I think there's nothing more honestly scarcely pathetic than the divorced couple you see where the one person is like talking shit about the other person too. And using the kids is almost like a pawn in that relationship, trying to poison the kids against the person. And yeah, I guess we could construct a hypothetical where it's like, I was a hundred percent right, and the partner was a thousand percent wrong or something. But even then, I think just allowing for the fact that, like, I could be wrong, and I, I might be that very person that I think is a piece of shit who is essentially poisoning a relationship, that I just think a kid, especially young kid's relationship with their parent, is a very important thing.

I get, even, even when that parent is, you, and has made mistakes, I want to give that person, that parent, every chance to have a better relationship with their kid than they did with me. Potentially. I want to give them every opportunity to be better, to, to have changed. And I don't want to poison that relationship that they could otherwise have.

0:22:40 Eli: I

0:23:23 Tom: I think of it a little bit differently. I think that my, my relationship with my ex, as a failed, failed marriage, is exclusively my relationship. My, my marriage is something that exists, you, my marriage to Hayley is something that exists independent of my relationship with Donovan, or my relationship with Finnegan, or my relationship with Ayman, or Aislin, my sacrosanct space, that the kids see a curated version of, I don't share the intimate details of my marital space with my kids. I don't think it's their business. I don't

0:24:02 Thomas: It's it's so it's just must be like a moral foundation for you because you OK, yeah, there's no, but like you're just kind of repeating this, like, thing you're doing. This and is not, like, as an insult to your argument. There are some things that are just like moral fundamentals for people. And so it sounds like this is one of those things where you can't really, you can really go deeper into why it just is a fundamental moral thing for you that this thing be separate. Because I could say the same words. I could say, yeah, my relationship with Lydia is a, for me, I sang with the same thing, but I don't mind sharing with my kids about it. You

0:24:36 Tom: I guess I this adds nothing to further articulate how I feel about it. But I think it is important that all the relationships that the kids have and that I have have separation and distinction between them. And that, you one of the things that I think coming from a divorced family, having been divorced myself and now being in a in a very good relationship finally, and having that that sort of stark difference and feeling the stark difference between those things. You know, one of the things that like I'm constantly thoughtful about and aware of is like these relationships have to exist independent, they all have to have their own life and their own breath and be fully independent, of you know, they're not, they're, I don't have like a relationship that's sort of like mitigated or managed through someone else. These, these are one -on -one individualized relationships. And I, I just feel like, you know, Finn asked me when he was 25, hey, what really happened between you, you and my mom, I would say that's always been just between me and your mom, that

0:25:41 Thomas: Huh? So let me ask this question. Think that it's impossible for, say, Finn, when he's 25, to still have his own relationship with his mom just by the mere fact of more knowledge about some other relationship, because I don't see that as the existential threat maybe that you see it as to the relationship. I think you can acquire more knowledge about someone else's relationship and not have it even fundamentally change your relationship with them.

0:25:43 Tom: Yeah.

0:26:09 Tom: Maybe, maybe, I don't know, I wouldn't guess, maybe too, like I would not want to open up that part of my life, which is vulnerable in that way, to my kids. And probably that piece of it too, like my job for my kids is not, it doesn't work in that direction for me, I I Think there's also an element there too, like as I think about it, like my job with my kids, my emotional relationship with my kids is fairly unidirectional, and I know this Is really Unpopular

0:26:23 Thomas: That's Oh, that's interesting. So Whereas Eli was dating his dad. So So that's why he's on the other side of this.

0:26:36 Eli: No.

0:26:36 Tom: Yeah. Right. I And I Fully Recognize, like, this is an unpopular space in like nowadays, I Know that, and it might not be the best space, but I don't want it to be different. My space with my kids is very unidirectional emotionally As far as vulnerability is concerned, I would be to do that

0:26:44 Thomas: Hmm. Okay. That's the missing ingredient. I'm glad we stuck with it. Cause I think think, that is the assumption that like Eli and I couldn't wrap our minds around, we couldn't get in touch with. And I think vat is the kind of the missing ingredients that makes the position make sense. So I'm Glad thanks for, you know, talking through that. Yeah.

0:27:00 Tom: Unwilling Yeah. Yeah.

0:27:13 Tom: Yeah, no.

0:27:14 Thomas: Didn't mean it as a, that you're repeating yourself in a bad way. I hope you didn't, didn't take it that way.

0:27:17 Tom: No.

0:27:16 Eli: No. No. I Think I Think It's really Interesting

0:27:18 Tom: No, I'm Just it's Something I I've never had to articulate before So I Didn't I don't, I've never articulated it before, yeah.

0:27:20 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:27:19 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. And at some point I would love to, that's Its own Episode But I would Like to talk about that unidirectional Thing. I want to stay on on this for a little bit, and then we'll, I promise, we'll go to like a funnier question

0:27:25 Thomas: That, that Sounds Like It's on episode Yeah. Well Yeah, also I didn't get to uh to answer about mine, so I'll Do That I'll Did as well, but no, go ahead For

0:27:33 Eli: Oh. Yeah. No. Dude. No. You Go You go first, because I'm about to shift to sort of like a kind Of different Subject, so yeah.

0:27:37 Thomas: Oh. Okay. Um. Interesting, it's been, it's had a few times where I just made reference to something, you, there've been random times, you know, in, in family, uh, kids conversations, where a million things come up, and maybe it doesn't come up, you know, and exactly the way you wanted to, or exactly the thing, a couple of times, something's come up where I talk about like, oh, I wasn't allowed to do this, or I didn't do this.

And I don't want to spend too much time with that, cause I don't want to be like, back in my day, I had to walk by fucking uphill both ways with a thing of firewood and a wheel, but like, I don't want you to do too much of that, you, you know, cause I, I don't want to be that person that tries to do the, like, well, I had it so much harder than you, kid. Like, I don't, you know what I mean?

I'm mindful of that dynamic, and I don't want to do it, but there have been times where, you help, but be like, yeah, well, okay. When I was your age, I didn't get to do this,

0:28:26 Eli: Yeah.

0:28:27 Thomas: You don't, like, it comes out, you know? And one time, Phoebe's just like, why? Lydia and and I both were kind of, I think she was, she was letting me lead it a little bit, cause I don't think she, she wanted to like comment on, you know, my, my relationship first.

But I was just like, yeah, my dad just wasn't, you know, he wasn't very nice, you know, like he just went, and they're so small that it's, you, it's hard to put into words for a five-year-old, but like, I was just like, yeah, he just, he just wasn t very nice. He wasn't as nice, as nice a person is like your mom and your dad might be. And and it's really just even uttering those words has been really interesting, because it's a difficult thing.

I don't know maybe what the right line is there, but I couldn't be more different from Tom in that I think, someday, don't mind being as open with my kids. I don't mind the vulnerability with my kid. I think there's a time and a place, and I think too young, you know, is one thing. But I think when they're older, like I don't mind sharing vulnerabilities and sharing my struggles with them, because I think it might, it might help them.

I think it might help them to know, you, if there's any behavior of mine that's bothering them, it might help them to understand, you know, where it might come from or something. I don't know, something that's just off the top of my head.

0:29:34 Eli: It's also, it's a wonderful moment when your child doesn't understand a bad thing, right? Like when Your kid doesn't, like, what do you mean your dad wasn't nice, dads are nice to You, that's a beautiful moment to check in with yourself and be like, I'm fucking nailing this, yes, you don't even have a concept of My dad. Okay, have you learned about World War II in class yet? Now? I will, trust me, there's this German guy with a mustache, he's Gonna, the comparison's really gonna lock in for you, Phoebe, we can go to whatever restaurant we want, it doesn't have to be McDonald's

0:29:41 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Hmm.

0:30:05 Tom: I Will say, like, I Will make jokes about my mom, like I'll make, I'll make occasional, I'll make the occasional joke, but I would not share details like

0:30:06 Eli: Um.

0:30:14 Thomas: Don't need to know how many monkeys died in the making of this Tom.

0:30:17 Tom: They Don't, they don' T need to know any of that, like I wouldn't share details

0:30:17 Thomas: Yeah.

0:30:19 Eli: Should Gonna listen to this podcast, that's how they're going to find out

0:30:23 Tom: I worry about them listening to this podcast, I Do Like I

0:30:25 Eli: Yeah. They're Good Because They're to be like, dad, happy 70th birthday, and you're going, gonna be like, it's on iTunes, boy, and that's how they're gonna find out anything, otherwise you're just gonna high five them at your grave and then be slowly lowered down into the earth.

Um, I wanted to jump, jump back a little bit to what Tom said about relationships being between two people, because the one place that I did want to provide some pushback on, that, against what seems like both of you, is when it comes to abusers, um, which is that I believe, and I'm gonna take this totally away from Tom's relationship, I'm not talking about Tom's relationship, just talking about relationships in general, I believe that abusers are abusers, are abusors, um, or not, you see it, whether or not you believe it, whether or not it's being reported to you, if you were abused by someone, they are abusing everyone in their life.

Um, just like you have the obligation to tell people when a child predator moves in, right, like, I work in high schools in New York City, and so I'm what's called a mandated reporter, which means, means that like, if I find out someone's a pedophile, I legally have to tell, right, I'm not allowed to be like, oh, I'll keep

0:30:26 Tom: Yeah.

0:31:31 Thomas: Yeah.

0:31:31 Eli: That secret There Are legal Right.

0:31:32 Thomas: That Relationship Is Between him and, no, yeah

0:31:34 Eli: Exactly. And so, like For me, when it comes to abusers, and I know a lot of our, let's, let's take the easy one, a lot of our female listeners have exes, men who fucking sucked in a variety of ways And I feel I feel like it's really, really important, actually, to tell. And yes, there are shitty couples who use their kids as weapons, but I also think it's pretty easy to be an okay dad, even if you were an abusive husband and letting, I think, I don't think someone should get to be an okay dad if they were an abuser, I think you have a moral obligation to mandated report. That's, that's where that's

0:31:35 Tom: Yeah, well,

0:31:46 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.

0:32:12 Eli: Sort of my, I think it's like, you need to, if you don't tell the people in your life about abusers, they are, you are opening them up to be abused.

0:32:20 Thomas: If let's say you date, they get abused by that same person, Tom, or something, would you feel no culpability there in Abstract.

0:32:26 Eli: Abstract, not about your ex.

0:32:28 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Ja. Ja, ja.

0:32:28 Eli: Just, I mean, we're, again, we'RE removing this from the, yeah.

0:32:30 Tom: Well, Think there are instances where it's very, very clear cut, but when it comes to more complex issues of abuse, where abuse is, let's say, emotional or manipulative, it becomes much more difficult. It becomes, that becomes a much more, that a much more fraught series of questions, you know, it's very simple if the abuse itself is simplistic, but when, when the abuse becomes more complex in nature, it, that is a, that is a much more nuanced and difficult answer, you

0:32:45 Thomas: Yeah.

0:33:00 Thomas: And I think, I, why I referenced Tom, where we draw the lines on that, because I do, I do agree with you that there's clear-cut cases and then there's great cases. I think it sounds like I would be somewhere way closer to Eli in terms of duty to warn on different cases. And I think that maybe Eli would be a little bit further than I'd want to go. I don't think it's like in any case of any kind of abuse, that means they're guaranteed to repeat it with someone else. I'm not entirely sure that's true in every case. I think it's probably true the vast majority of the time. So I would draw the line separately. Another thing that's interesting though, to consider is when it comes to these relationships, you don't know how your warnings will be received. What if you warn somebody, but they're kind of in the clutches or whatever? There's that relationship where they're going to trust the other person more than you. And then just by doing that, maybe you've alienated yourself from them.

0:33:15 Tom: Right.

0:33:53 Eli: Right. And you've, you've lost the ability to protect them.

0:33:53 Tom: Right. So,

0:33:55 Thomas: Yeah, that's another consideration too.

0:33:56 Tom: I think that's very real, I think every circumstance is so nuanced and so specific, it can become impossible to really offer anything that's meaningful, that's generalized. I think you've got to know all the people and the circumstances involved at a level of intimacy that doesn't lend itself to sort of, here's what you do in this circumstance. It just doesn't play.

0:34:01 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

0:34:19 Eli: Right. Doesn't. Yeah. Yeah.

0:34:20 Tom: Play

0:34:20 Thomas: I think in the case of physical abuse by a partner, I would draw a line. I think that it's it's always OK to.

0:34:22 Tom: Yes I would too physical sexual abuse.

0:34:26 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. That kind of thing. Yeah.

0:34:26 Tom: Yeah, I would too that's why I was like, yeah, I think someone's in danger, I would think anybody, I would think somebody was in danger if there was a physically abusive person around them

0:34:33 Thomas: Mm hmm. If they'd only abused like you and had never done anything to to the kids, I still. Yeah?

0:34:36 Tom: Right, I 100%, yeah.

0:34:39 Eli: Oh, some emotional abusers out there, man, that I would, would warn everyone about your dad, Thomas. I'm just letting you know, if me and your dad dated and we did, I would tell everybody about that.

0:34:42 Thomas: Oh, Yeah yeah. Yeah.

0:34:53 Eli: And then the other point I wanted to touch on was just like, when it comes to sharing things that are outside that, uh, the, the questioner brought up mental illness. It's, it's interesting. I know I'm going to be the overshary dad and I'm gonna I'm gonna rely on you guys to keep me in check, just on what I'm like because I'm I can't not constantly wear my heart on my sleeve all the time is a great example of just what a nutbag I am and how I need to keep it under control. There is a Thanksgiving book that my uncle made a couple years ago because we all had to skip Thanksgiving because of COVID, even though it turned out it wasn't real, um, we all just kept Thanksgiving. I'm joking. I, I just love the idea of one listener who's been listening, doesn't know the other shows, who's like, oh fuck, I gotta turn it off. Uh, but no, he sent out this book, the uncle Larry who takes all the pictures and has been

0:35:08 Thomas: Oh, shit. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

0:35:45 Eli: The archivist. He made this book with pictures that date back to like 1968, right? Include pictures of my father at my age and younger, right? Like when he and my mom were first married, let alone when I, I was a kid. And Max loves that book, likes to go through and point to the people and say who they are. Mommy, Daddy, Azuzu, Uncle Larry, right? He loves to go through and say the things. If he makes me say them, when he points to my dad, I start to cry. So, so I will have to like misdirect him because he'll be like, Uncle Larian. I'll be like, that's Uncle Larry. And then he'll point to my dad and I'll be like, let's turn the page, buddy.

0:35:54 Thomas: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:36:24 Eli: Huh, let's turn the badge, Daddy's barely keeping it together, it's just there's a children's book that my mom wrote based on my dad called Tyrannosaurus Dad that I cannot read the end of, my son, he, poor thing, he's given up on it, thank God, but he, there's the end pages, like, and "I'll always be there for you," and I can't read it. I'll just be like, and then the dinosaur said, said, "Have a good one, everybody," then the dinosaur died and you were all alone. Oh,

0:36:24 Thomas: Yeah. Yep. Yep. That's,

0:36:25 Tom: Because

0:36:36 Thomas: No. Yeah,

0:36:46 Tom: You're

0:36:50 Thomas: I, actually had this same sort of thing pinned for a mental health episode. I have, sort of how much I relate to that, Eli. The trick is I can keep my heart off my sleeve in day-to-day interactions. I can't when it comes to my kid. That's the problem. Like I can all day long, I can interact with plenty of people where my heart is not on my sleeve. I don't it's not, you know, that the fact that it is my kids and I want my heart on my sleeve. That's the problem.

It's actually kind of the same as, um, I have a bit of a problem in, when I'm doing acting, I have a bit of a problem breaking. I'm not one of those people that can like keep the straight face no matter what, and I've realized that part of it is because I'm in, and I don't know what the solution to this is, but I'm in that state where I'm trying to emote what I'm feeling. Like I'm trying to communicate to an audience what I'm feeling. And so to switch real quickly to, oh, I don't emote that. You're not, you know, like, that's not a thing you're

0:37:12 Eli: Yeah right

0:37:45 Thomas: Supposed to, the fact that somebody fucked up their line, you're laughing about it internally. You can't emote that, you know, like making that switch. It's kind of a similar thing where I don't know that I can make that switch with my kids. Like my heart is on my sleeve with my Kids with other people. Sure. So that's going to be, I, yeah.

0:37:58 Eli: Yeah fuck other people, I have no problem covering up my emotions with other people, I've been doing that since I was like five. Yeah

0:38:03 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:38:01 Tom: And think I want to go back real quick and make sure, like, I'm very emotionally available to my kids and I do believe in that, like, I'm emotionally available. If I was like, you, like, we had to give away our family dog to another home because it wasn't working out, I cried. I didn't mind that the kids saw me cry. But what I would not do, what I'm always very conscious of and very aware of is making sure that the kids see emotions that they are equipped to see at an age where it is appropriate for them to see it, and that the context of that emotional view of me makes sense to them. So, like, I would not, I would not just be like, dad feels sad and like just cry. Like, they don't need to be my therapist. Like, they don't need to be like, my kids are not for me, my kids are not there to comfort me, like, they should not play that role in my life. So,

0:38:57 Eli: And I, I super strongly agree with that, um, this is maybe for the mental health episodes, but I get crying jags, which is a part, part of my depression, uh, and if you don't have those, uh, kind of like the Joker movie where he laughs for no reason, I'll sometimes start like maniacally weeping for no reasons, and there've been a couple of times, they're not like associated with emotions or anything, they're just like, they're the thing that my face starts to do.

0:39:04 Tom: Sure. Yeah.

0:39:20 Eli: Um and I'll like duck out of the room because it's very important to me that Max never feel like he's causing that or has to support that, So, He'll be he'll be like, "Booba," and I'll be like, "Yeah, buddy, Booba." He's just like, "Yeah, man, he really fucking hated Booba," you know.

0:39:20 Tom: Right. Right, right. And similarly, like if I'm, if I am furious, if I have, if angry and grumpy and like having a very, very bad day, like they're not going to see that just not going see it. I'm not going be snappish or peevish or

0:39:35 Thomas: Oh, yeah. So you never drive with them in the car?

0:39:49 Eli: What? If For instance someone drops some frosties on you, Tom, I've

0:39:51 Thomas: Oh, man.

0:39:50 Tom: I'm a very chill driver actually, but What if somebody backs over the baby carriage? But no, I do. I do try to keep a very, very, very tight lid on emotions with the kids, emotional visibility to the kids so that they see emotions that are honest and real and appropriate, but they don't see things that like don't have any interaction for them that they don't need to see. Like they don't need to see me, you or worried or stressed about money. Like it's not their their world, they don't need to ever know that that's a life position that I find myself in, that you shit is not for them, that's not their worry. It's sure to, I said, like if there's something emotional that they can interact with me on, like, "Oh, we had a family dog and now we don't, this is a space we should all feel together." But if it's just mine, that's enough, I would never show that to them, never, unless I was just so, so distraught I physically couldn't help it. I can't imagine that happening, what would have to happen

0:39:57 Thomas: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes.

0:40:55 Eli: Defeated all the emotions in mortal combat, all Going to wrap things up on, on a cheery note, on a fun note, this is from Don. Don asks, "Why did you give your kids their names and what was the process you used in that decision?"

0:40:58 Thomas: No, God.

0:41:12 Tom: They How do you Scombert, we know

0:41:14 Thomas: Yes. Sconbert was an easy one. You just ask your five-year-old what you want to name your kid. The other day Phoebe said, cause yeah, I think I've told this, but I've, I've had to say several times, like, you know, we're not, the, the kid's not going to be named scombert. Like you know that's, and one time I think I've shared this, but one time Phoebe says, yeah, we'll call him spinny. Like she just came up with another name. I was like, spinny?

0:41:21 Tom: I

0:41:36 Eli: Right.

0:41:36 Thomas: Yeah. I was, like no, that like, I love that in her mind, my reasoning for saying, you, know, the kids not going be named spot was just because there's a different ridiculous name that she, she has yet to, and she, the way she answered to like, it was matter of fact, like, yeah, obviously we're not calling him scumbert. We're calling him spinny. Yeah. Duh. Oh, that was so funny. But the other day, apparently she said to Lydia, I wasn't there, but I think she said to Lydia, you know, the baby might not be named scumbert, but we could still just call him scumber. I was like, Yeah, that's probably

0:41:35 Tom: Love It, it

0:41:46 Eli: She's got her own. No, I've got a nickname. Don't worry, Dad.

0:42:09 Tom: Did

0:42:09 Thomas: Going to happen. And not going to lie, there may be a little bit of that.

0:42:12 Tom: Your give your babies nicknams, no?

0:42:12 Eli: Oh,

0:42:14 Thomas: Oh, my children have 487 names that I call them all the time.

0:42:18 Eli: Yeah. Bean.

0:42:19 Thomas: This is going to be one of those things that I'm guessing Tom is just different on.

0:42:20 Eli: Bean Bear. Bear. No.

0:42:23 Tom: No.

0:42:24 Eli: He uses their full names every times he speaks to them. Oh.

0:42:26 Thomas: Oh,

0:42:24 Tom: I my No, my- my youngest name was Shmoo for a long time until he was old enough to where he's like, "No, I'm not fucking Shmue, cut that out," and then uh Finn was he was my silly goose and then just called him the goose for a long time then he was just goose and it made made me laugh.

0:42:30 Thomas: Okay. That's cute. And

0:42:41 Tom: So I, yeah. Right. He was really good at volleyball and not good at ejecting.

0:42:40 Thomas: You showed him Top Gun and he's like, like, yeah.

0:42:45 Tom: It was, uh, right.

0:42:45 Eli: Who's Dating their dad Now. Uh, bean, bear, anything, bean, uh, bubba, which is what our, um, introduced. But bean and bean bear comes from the fact that me, uh, and Anna can't stop swearing, so bean is our, our replacement for swear words. So, We'll be Like he's a little bean. He's just so he's beat. I want to bean him right in his bean and face, so You Gotta. Yeah.

0:43:05 Thomas: Oh, oh, like a good, a good swearing. Okay. As, as, ah, gotcha.

0:43:17 Eli: Positive Swearing. Yeah. Although I do now. It's very fun, uh, because, you know, Max is starting to talk a little bit more, and so I will argue with him like he's just a bro sometimes, Like I'll be late, you want a juice pouch, and he'll be like, "Ah, but you said you want to fucking do, but don't yell at me, I'll eat the juice pouch." I'd, I'd love a fucking juice patch right now. And he's just like, I'll be like, "Yeah, yeah, whatever." "Same to you." "I'll go with mine." Cause it's a very hard answer. So my name was supposed to be Max, then my mother told her mother that they were going to name me Max Bosnick. And, uh, her mother said to her, "If you name him Max Bosnick, he's going to wear white on white suits and work in the garment district."

0:43:18 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah.

0:43:55 Eli: And I loved that description so much. I heard that story my whole life and I just thought, Max is great. It's also the name of both my great -grandfathers on both sides. Both my mother's grandfather and my father's grandfather and of course, his middle name is David after my dad.

0:44:10 Tom: That's nice. I don't have like a good story for how like Finnegan's name is Finnegan. Cause I thought it was cool. I still Think it's cool. And wanted Irish names because, uh, the boy's pretty Irish. Um, his middle name, as I think I've mentioned on the show before, his middle named is actually Danger. It's

0:44:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:44:26 Eli: It's Danger, which is so fucking cool.

0:44:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:44:29 Tom: Great, and I wanted, I was pushing hard, Eli, as you'll recall, for you to give your child middle name Powers, would Be Max Power. I Was pushin' Pretty hard because that's amazing.

0:44:35 Eli: I know. I know, I know Look, if he had been a girl, we would have named him Mayonnaise and called him May so, you know, there's bullet dodged for everybody

0:44:44 Thomas: What?

0:44:43 Tom: Um, And Then, uh, Amen, just, that's just another traditional Irish name, name Um, That We Just Yeah.

0:44:46 Thomas: Oh, it is. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay.

0:44:52 Tom: I just like the sound of, and it's actually funny because the, I've been to Ireland once, um, and the, flew into Ireland, got in a cab, sat in the cab and saw the little placard and said your driver's name is Amen, and I Was like, booyah, that's cool. So that was actually pretty cool, the first person I spoke to in Dublin was, uh, had the same name. So then, uh, he has the worst middle name in all of history. His middle name, uh, literally terrible, and I know it, and it makes me laugh because middle names are a fucking joke, and I, I use them as an opportunity for humor. So his middle name is Prufrock after my favorite poem by T.S. Eliot, "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock which is not a happy poem, and it is a terrible middle name, and it amuses me To no end, so

0:45:03 Thomas: Huh. Wow.

0:45:03 Eli: Nice!

0:45:33 Eli: Finn Eamon's gonna fucking murder Finn, like Cain, oh, I'm Sorry, you know what, I just was, uh, comparing our names, and I'm gonna hit you on the back of the head with A big rock. So would You sacrifice Some sheep? Not

0:45:36 Tom: Know, I Take his name But Yeah.

0:45:36 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Big discrepancy there. That's, that's, uh, well, that. So our goal with the names has always been something a couple of constraints. I want names that not everybody has. So not super John and fucking Mary Paul, you know, uh.

0:45:47 Tom: I I Know. I, I, I was, I was overruled on many other options, so Thomas.

0:46:06 Thomas: Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Fucking Thomas. Oh, that's the other rule is no names that end in S because their last name is Smith. I don't know who, what idiot in my family thought Thomas Smith is a good way to, it's the worst. It's the worst name. So no names that end in S because doing the S before Smith is terrible. Um, it can't be super fucking weird or a misspelling. Like, want something uncommon but not like, oh, it's, you know, Madison but with the Y not, where you think kind of thing, where they're gonna have to explain how to spell their fucking name every single interaction they Ever have that. I didn't want

0:46:07 Eli: Uh.

0:46:40 Eli: Well. Thomas, I actually think people who do that with their kids' names are awesome, and, Super cool, uh, and, oh, I love them, and they are, are great. Disagree.

0:46:47 Thomas: These Were my rules. Uh, have different rules, that's totally fine, that's your thing. Um, didn't want them to have to explain that, how to spell their name every single time. Um, so Phoebe is a common-ish name, but not super common, and we stupidly thought that, um, time had passed since Friends, and let alone when she, she gets older, like people won't be talking about Friends in the year fucking 2040 or whatever. But because of eternal streaming, uh, I guess people will always associate it with Friends. But that's okay. There's always going to be one association basically with everybody's name.

0:47:24 Thomas: And it only comes up a little bit. They'll just be like, were you fans of Friends? I'm like, no, I fucking hate Friends. Show sucks. The worst show. Um, but I love, I love the name Phoebe. I've always, uh. Just adored calling Phoebe, Phoebe and it's hard to separate. I don't know at what point, you know, the name and the person blend into one thing. But I love that. And so for girls' names, it's fun because you can just come up with names you like. With boys' names, you have to try to find any names among the two of you that hasn't been the name of a dude that sucked that you knew. And it's

0:47:23 Tom: Right. I

0:47:55 Eli: Oh,

0:47:55 Thomas: Very difficult. It is very difficult for every single name. It's like, no, I knew one of those and I hated him. No, I knew that and I hate him. Now I knew him or Lydia, you know, or like, Oh, I knew that. And he's gross, you know? It ruins. So dude's names are impossible. So Arlo was one that I think I was aware of the name from Arlo Guthrie, but I'm not like a big Arlo Guthrie fan or whatever, but, um, harder. I'm going to lie. The boy's name's not as easy. And I, I, it's kind of sucks that I have another boy to try to name. And

0:47:56 Eli: You

0:48:03 Tom: Thought

0:48:26 Eli: Guys haven't decided on a name yet.

0:48:28 Thomas: Think I have.

0:48:29 Tom: It Was Scombert, did I miss something? I thought it was, but

0:48:30 Eli: First,

0:48:30 Thomas: Yeah, I I have, Lydia has not been like a hundred percent. So I'm leaving open. I'll change my mind if she, you know, has strong feelings, but I have what I think I want to name him. So, and then his middle name is Elliot after Elliot Smith. I almost I almost did first name name Elliot Smith, but, uh, don't know. I felt like that was a little too much. So had I known I was having another boy ahead of time, I would have named one of them Elliot Smith. But now that I've made Arlo's middle name, Elliot, it feels weird to make the other kid's first name, Elliot.

0:49:04 Eli: Yeah, Because then you make his middle name Arlo, and there's a Weird They can run at Each other real fast And be a super Strong Baby Yeah, it's a whole thing.

0:49:07 Thomas: That'd be fun. That would be fun, so yeah, that's where ours are. Well, I'll, so, so I feel like I know scumbert's name, but Lydia is not quite there yet. So that means we don't know scumbert's name yet, because obviously we got to agree.

0:49:23 Eli: I Don't know that I've told this terrifying story on the air before. This is probably, I should have saved this for Halloween, but about a week before we learned Max's birth sex, my wife decided that if he was a girl, she was going to name her Anna Bosnick Jr. And 100 With 100 sincerity, and Pregnant And With One With Pregnancy Strength and crazy. No bits, not, not brooking dissent At all, and

0:49:45 Thomas: I love that. No, really?

0:49:46 Tom: That's great. I Wish She Had done it I Wish He Had done it

0:49:56 Thomas: Oh, used that as a bit for like why the another patriarchy thing like you never see the fucking female name Junior. That never happens. That's crazy.

0:50:05 Eli: That's That's what she, that was her argument. She Was like, it's Cool.

0:50:07 Thomas: Oh, I love it.

0:50:08 Eli: We'll do that. No, stop it, Thomas, stop it. I vasectomized Myself For A Reason. Yeah, no, but yeah, That Was that everyone else was like, oh, is it a boy or a girl? And I was like, please be a boy, please be a boy, I don't want to have to explain Anna Gentlemen, before we go, I've been sitting on this one for weeks, I gotta get it out there. What is a Japanese chihuahua called? A Konichiwawa.

0:50:11 Thomas: Hey, you got your balls chopped up. Yeah, you're not at any risk.

0:50:22 Thomas: Anna Bosnick, Anna Bosnick Jr. Oh, my God.

0:50:42 Tom: Oh my god, yes.

0:50:39 Thomas: Getting canceled. Us I was going to say, is it us getting canceled for whatever this racist joke is? I have no. OK, I think that was it. We checked. Is that one OK? That's OK. OK, I

0:50:49 Tom: I

0:50:50 Eli: I Feel Like that one's okay. Stop.

0:50:57 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:51:36 Tom: I do a regular intro for Q&A's? I can't remember.

0:51:38 Eli: Yeah! No.

0:51:43 Tom: Do something. Just fuck it, I'll wing it. Fuck it, we'll do it live. I'm recording.

0:51:39 Thomas: No actually I think no yeah

0:51:48 Eli: I'm also recording.

0:51:48 Thomas: Yeah we're all recording