DOD30: Toxic Self-Reliance

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's carrying in all the groceries in one trip, no matter how much it hurts. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Gentlemen.

0:00:34 Thomas: Alright. If that's a toxic male trait, then I guess I'm a toxic man. I'm sorry. That's gonna, I'm gonna get all of them. Why did they make them so conveniently handled? You know, the the bags with the handles in a way that you could carry 400 of them. If that's not what you're supposed to do, why would they make them like that? Yeah.

0:00:55 Tom: I carry in the groceries. My hand will be purple. When we go grocery shopping, I've got four fucking kids. The amount of groceries. It's an enormous amount of Grocery. It's huge. You know, it's a fucking enormous, enormous amount. Autograph, I do not care. I don't care. Two bags of cat litter, put them on my shoulders, three gallons of milk, absolutely. I'll hold shit in my teeth if I have to, to bring that shit in in one trip.

0:00:58 Thomas: Yeah. Okay.

0:01:17 Thomas: Realizing that I've lost this pleasure in life in the post-COVID, we just order everything in, multiple delivery people. Damn, that's Sad. Don't Isn't that how you guys do groceries now? That's

0:01:25 Eli: Oh, no.

0:01:28 Tom: Do it 90% of the time that way, but we always have to make like inter delivery trips for all the shit that we forget, which ends up being Fucking Legion.

0:01:37 Eli: Yeah.

0:01:35 Thomas: Fair. Yeah, you Know what we do is we we just order another delivery if we forget something. Yeah. But

0:01:43 Tom: Wait

0:01:41 Eli: Yeah, it was so much more expensive to do grocery deliveries that we just I started doing in-person shopping again. Plus, then you get to do the like, oh, yeah. What is it? What's the one the app that everyone was Using? Instacart. Yeah, Instacart. The prices are like sometimes double, like on Instacart, what they are in the actual grocery store, plus

0:01:50 Tom: They Charge Extra For it, there Instacart. Holy

0:02:04 Thomas: I Feel bad for anyone doing this for me, so I don't care, whatever it is, I'll find a way to pay It, getting

0:02:04 Tom: Shit, you're

0:02:09 Eli: Yeah No, I mean, but then again the person doing the shopping on Instakart, they're not getting the Benefits Of The Higher Price, they Just get

0:02:14 Thomas: Any Of it, yeah, it's It's The Best, I Love that setup Everything Is like that, oh, I don't mind paying a lot because this, you, person working really hard, I don't mind paying, oh, they get none of it, you're, you're just paying a fucking corporation,

0:02:16 Eli: No They Get They Get That Tip at the End that you Resentfully ignore because the prices Have tripled

0:02:25 Thomas: Oh, great, yeah, yeah totally,

0:02:24 Tom: Just paying for Yeah Right Wait A minute Now My mind is blown right now, wait a moment, all right, are the prices for the individual products different than at the start? I thought you got charged like a delivery fee or whatever, but

0:02:32 Thomas: Oh

0:02:32 Eli: No They're, they're Significantly Higher

0:02:42 Tom: The Actual

0:02:42 Thomas: I'm with you Tom, I just, I think it's just a delivery fee for me, yeah

0:02:43 Eli: Yeah

0:02:43 Tom: Product Prices Are Different I've Thought so, too. Now, OK, I might have I might have to reevaluate some shit here. I had no idea.

0:02:47 Thomas: Yeah,

0:02:51 Eli: Check It out, guys Go Ahead and check out, like, what you're the super essentials that people keep track of, but like, check out what frozen waffles are costing you on Instacart, you're Gonna be unpleasantly surprised, all

0:03:01 Thomas: But here's what I want to say though, in the dad games, you know, the like dad, if they have that one event would be carrying as many plastic bags.

0:03:08 Tom: Yes. Oh, yeah.

0:03:11 Eli: The groceries. Yeah.

0:03:12 Thomas: And here's, Here's what I used to love. I actually haven't done this as a dad as much as I did it when I was, you know, in high school, and I would have to carry all the groceries for my fucking parents, which is whatever. I was the young strapping boy. I didn't mind. But what I love, Tom, here's the part I love about it. There's the strategy, the Yeah, the loading, and the individual bag, you're like, wait a minute, this bag, it's got a little bit too much heaviness right next to this plastic, it's going to fail, I know, I know that, I see it, like the Matrix, I see that it's just the numbers.

0:03:12 Tom: Yeah.

0:03:31 Tom: The loading strategy. Right. Yeah.

0:03:43 Thomas: This plastic bag is compromised, and you lose, you'd lose one of the plastic hands on the back, it's compromised, sir, we have one handle down, it's okay, we're gonna, we're almost up the steps, we're going to make it, it's okay.

0:03:53 Tom: And you're doing that shuffle walk where you're trying to, like, bounce the groceries as little as possible because you know like okay

0:03:53 Thomas: No. Try to brace that bag on your thigh a little bit. It might take some of the, some of my waist off. It's no good, sir. We're not going to make it. We could do it. Guy at least will love it. Why are we so stupid? I don't understand. I love it so much.

0:03:59 Tom: Okay oh god I am no because I'm not going back out there

0:04:11 Thomas: I'm not going back out there.

0:04:11 Tom: I'm Not Going Back Out There Man No No It's Not Happening

0:04:15 Thomas: Any sensible person, I .e. most women I've ever known would be like, just set that one down. And no, I'm just going to do it again. I'm setting that. I've started this. People are relying on me, they're watching, no one's watching, I'm literally

0:04:21 Tom: No I'd Rather Drop It Yep Have No Idea About It's Just Like It's It's More Work To Do It My Way And I'm Like I'm I'm still gonna do it that way I'm I but I'm that that's that's me in every part of my life I'll look at something be like I could go out to the garage and get a ladder or I could balance this chair on top of a stool yeah right and I mean it's like a it's fucking mouse trap up there you know it's ridiculous and I'm just like all right now now I'm up here if I stretch just a a little and lean at the right angle I can just it's so much more dangerous

0:04:29 Thomas: Yeah on four paint cans, yeah. Yeah okay

0:04:52 Eli: And stand on one foot

0:04:58 Thomas: Tom You need to, you need to grow out of that. I have grown out of that because I've realized, oh, I am risking my life for a light bulb and I I you know, if I go then, you know, that's not great for my family, so I feel like, like, maybe I gotta think this light bulb is not worth my life, yeah.

0:05:02 Tom: Right I know

0:05:15 Eli: Oh it's oh No, it's so much worse. You're not risking your life for the, because if, if you, you could guarantee you were going to die, you just become the bad back guy, right? Everyone's like, "Hey, sorry, will you grab that small glass of water and bring it over here?" And you got to be like, "No, sorry, the old back, the old back." And then, like, it's time to sit down and you've brought your own cushion that you prop against the chair and everyone ignores it like a dying relative.

0:05:41 Tom: Yeah,

0:05:38 Thomas: Well my god, this is good I am I minutes am minutes away from doing that, Eli. I am mere days away from getting to that level, I'm uncomfortable, it's I, scoliosis and back problems, man, there's nothing you can do, but my neck hurts all the time

0:05:47 Eli: Oh,

0:05:51 Tom: I've already had one back surgery. I'm in that already. Like, I'm I'm in that world.

0:05:51 Thomas: Oh yeah yeah Yeah. Well, a merch, merch opportunity, though, the butt cushion, the dad butt cushion with the go, go dig, go, dig a hole where the chair

0:05:59 Tom: The dad buck cushion.

0:05:59 Eli: Yes. Yes. And the go dig a hole where the dog used to be cushions. Yes.

0:06:06 Thomas: Used to be or something. I don't know.

0:06:09 Eli: He's born in February. Oh, speaking of which, this is a very, I have a deep and important apology to issue the capper for that episode, I was mistaken. The capper of that episode should not have been what I read. Our very own Haley, Tom's wife, sent me a sign that someone saw at Hobby Lobby and this should have been the ending to that episode, just for the record I'd rules for dating my son he is not your ATM Understand, I don't like you and I never will. I'm

0:06:14 Thomas: I still

0:06:19 Tom: Oh, oh, my God.

0:06:46 Tom: What? What?

0:06:46 Eli: Everywhere. You hurt him, I hurt you. Respect me as his mama. Don't lie to him or to me. He is my prince, not your boy.

0:06:59 Tom: Oh my God.

0:06:59 Thomas: What?

0:07:00 Eli: I don'T MIND GOING BACK TO JAIL.

0:07:04 Thomas: Yeah, of course. Yeah, it's a classic joke.

0:07:06 Eli: UNDERSTAND, I CAN MAKE YOU GO AWAY. Whatever you do to him, this is the one that I really, this is stuck with me since this morning, whatever you do to him I will do to you.

0:07:19 Thomas: At what point are these technically school shooter manifestos? Like going to be the new game online. Can you tell if it's the fucking, you Zealand shooters fucking or a t -shirt at a hobby lobby? I can't tell. Yeah,

0:07:24 Eli: Yes. Okay. Yes. For our first live show, we will play live mass shooter manifesto or t -shirt about dating my daughter.

0:07:40 Tom: Which is

0:07:40 Thomas: You know one of those one of those fun games Yeah, one of those fun little icebreakers for the live show, you know, just,

0:07:43 Tom: It? Yeah. See, now I feel like we got to talk about mama's boys instead of, like, are we originally we're going to talk about? But that shirt, like, that shirt is like this enormous, it's not so much a red flag, it's a fucking red signal flare or that sign or whatever

0:08:00 Eli: It's just a Red: shirt no

0:08:02 Thomas: The way of going, going through life, that, that shirt implies, like, like, it's fucking Mad Max or something and everybody's just, at any time, is just somebody who's gonna fuck you over, like, it's such a sad way of living, I can't imagine it.

0:08:03 Tom: Right

0:08:19 Eli: That sign does make sense in actual Mad Max though, like, if we were all in the water Wars, I would carry that sign around and be like, oh, no, that makes it, I get, get it now.

0:08:22 Thomas: Yeah yeah Yeah.

0:08:28 Tom: Saw that sign, if you went to, like, you're dating somebody and you go to their house, you go to their folks' house and you see that sign hanging up, that

0:08:38 Eli: Here

0:08:35 Thomas: I propose right on the spot, because I know that that's a joke and that means their mom is actually the funniest person in the world. And therefore they would probably be the funniest person in world. Cause I, my brain will not accept that. That's real. Like I, there could be, look, I'm a skeptic. I'm irrational guy. There are limits. Like there are things where my brain would go. No, any explanation, except that that's a real earnest thing. Someone would wear, I will accept any explanation. It doesn't matter. Fairies, uh, know, angels, whatever it is that explains that shirt. That is not, I earnestly bought this and thought it would be a good idea to put on.

0:08:40 Tom: Would have to be, it, it would have to be it

0:08:43 Eli: Yeah yeah Thomas, can't see that sign the way the Native Americans couldn't see the Mayflower. Yeah.

0:09:16 Thomas: I Yeah. Maybe I don't know how to read. Maybe I'm actually... I've

0:09:20 Tom: Yeah right, that would be in a fight, you'd be like, oh, that's actually ancient hieroglyphics or something, I must be, is that I'm sorry, is that owl, open eyes, staff, staff, three cats what what

0:09:28 Eli: Crazy

0:09:29 Thomas: Yeah. I've got through life not realizing I don t know the definition of several very common words. I ve just had them wrong.

0:09:38 Eli: Sun means pile of gold, right? Because if sun gun means like a big pile of gold.

0:09:40 Tom: Oh my god oh

0:09:47 Thomas: Yeah, old English for, yeah, exactly.

0:09:48 Tom: God I'd be like, all right, we can continue this relationship if you disown your family, that's, that's the only way this

0:09:54 Thomas: I mean, I'll be honest, that's kind of my standing requirement. Just from where I come from, that is my baseline. Like, yeah. You just own your family, right?

0:09:57 Tom: That's it you just, you're saying goodbye, just that's how this works. Right that's

0:10:03 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. No, I assume, like, you already did, right, and they are like, no. Oh, oh, okay. So, when? Like, next week? Next month?

0:10:10 Eli: Oh, are you?

0:10:11 Tom: Weird.

0:10:11 Thomas: Yeah.

0:10:11 Eli: When are you going? No contact or. Oh, no, they're dying there. Oh, they'RE obviously dying. Oh,

0:10:14 Tom: Hey,

0:10:15 Thomas: Yeah, they are almost dying.

0:10:15 Eli: OK. Yeah, no.

0:10:17 Thomas: That's fine.

0:10:15 Tom: That's just as good that's

0:10:17 Thomas: Yeah, you can wait.

0:10:18 Eli: Yeah,

0:10:18 Tom: Just as good this

0:10:18 Eli: You don't want to.

0:10:19 Thomas: No reason to, you know, fucking do that right now if they are dying.

0:10:21 Tom: Isn't like an on the verge might come back thing right I've

0:10:21 Eli: One more conversation with that person, right? Yeah. Toxic self-reliance.

0:10:26 Thomas: Well, I was going to say, hold on, let me think. Did any of my kids die lately? Anybody been murdered? No, I guess I don't have anything, so we better go to Toxic Self-Reliance.

0:10:35 Eli: Yeah.

0:10:34 Tom: No, what and a week went by without anybody trying to put Arlo down huh? That's

0:10:39 Eli: Murder your

0:10:38 Thomas: It's weird. Yeah, yeah, that I know of.

0:10:40 Eli: Kids. And you know who fed Arlo that sandwich? I figured it out after the episode. I was walking around and I had like a fucking Knives Out moment where I realized it was the parking lady. Gave Arlo the sandwich.

0:10:52 Tom: The parking lady yes,

0:10:52 Thomas: Oh, that's a different... That's Phoebe's school. That's that's Phoebe's school, so that would be dastardly. She's like...

0:10:56 Tom: Yes.

0:10:56 Eli: Yeah, I'm not saying her revenge wasn't protracted. She went and got a job.

0:11:01 Thomas: She's been following me for

0:11:02 Eli: Yeah.

0:11:02 Thomas: Fucking weeks. Yeah.

0:11:04 Eli: She warned you.

0:11:00 Tom: I was I was actually

0:11:05 Eli: Give

0:11:06 Tom: Today, just today, I was at the CVS and they had a great big display of sun butter and I skirted around it just in case I was like, yeah, I don't know. It seems like I've heard things. I NOT touching that shit. I actually love some butter, um, that's

0:11:13 Thomas: Yeah, just in case. Oh, that's what's so sad. It's a great alternative for peanut allergies. Too bad.

0:11:23 Tom: Delicious like, I just like it

0:11:24 Thomas: I'm going to try. You know what? I bet I was over it. I bet. I'm gonna feed him.

0:11:25 Tom: Because it's fucking delicious. Yeah.

0:11:29 Thomas: I'm Gonna feed him one more right now.

0:11:29 Tom: What

0:11:28 Eli: It a shot. They grow out of it you know what you need to do is you need to take a teaspoon of it and you mix it into milk and you give him just a little bit every day, I'm literally instructing you to poison your child oh

0:11:34 Thomas: Yeah. Yep. Little olive oil. Yeah. Yeah, slowly.

0:11:30 Tom: It's yeah. Has He tried it as an enema. Has that? Maybe as an an enema that would work. It just, uh, there you go.

0:11:43 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My my mom, the scientist said, I'll get over it. So I think he's probably fine.

0:11:47 Tom: Oh,

0:11:51 Eli: Yeah, he's probably just every couple of weeks

0:11:51 Tom: Well, there you go. Yeah, uh, know. Yeah, you'll say you'll, no, he's over it because, uh, one time he won't die, uh, when he eats sun. And that's how you know he was over at that time. That's Okay, the fuck do you test if somebody is over an allergy? You'd have to go to the now, the allergist, right? And get a test

0:12:01 Eli: Mhm yeah yeah,

0:12:00 Thomas: Oh, boy. Yeah, You do that blood test and they do, or they do, as dat little, like, you see dat, like, they draw like a fucking tic-tac-toe on your skin or something. And they do little patches of each thing and I want, I hope they play Connect Four with that. I hope it's like, off, if these four allergies line up in a straight line or diagonal, as hits, then, you he know wins the office, like, pool or whatever, you know, that'd be fun.

0:12:08 Tom: Oh, right, right, right, yeah,

0:12:14 Eli: The scratch test look, We're not here to question the experts, but there's, there's gotta be a better way to test for allergies than the scratch test, right? If you've ever gone through the scratch test and you describe it to someone who isn't, they're like, oh, no, you, that, that person killed your doctor and was living out their sick, dark fantasies.

0:12:36 Thomas: Yeah, yeah It does sound a lot like oh you got a headache well well, let's try putting a hole in your head and draining out what comes out until your headache goes away.

0:12:50 Tom: Yeah, have you

0:12:56 Eli: And then will rub what gave you that headache against your head.

0:12:59 Tom: Tried trepanation, that's yeah,

0:13:01 Thomas: It sounds pretty medieval. Like I can imagine a time not too distant future where they'd be like, what the fuck you taught? You just, you hold the scanner right here and you just go, and then it tells you everything that they'd be allergic to. Why don't we have,

0:13:14 Eli: No, no, listen up, kids, here's what we used to do. You You would scratch yourself hard enough to bleed, but not like an open wound. And then, and this is very important, you would rub potentially deadly toxins into that wound. And depending on how terribly it hurt you, and you were a child at this point, so, you know, you got to sort of ballpark that. That's how we knew what you could or couldn't eat in your school lunches.

0:13:39 Tom: It does seem like there could be a better solution than dip a thumbtack in poison and scratch yourself with. That just doesn't seem like the right...

0:13:44 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:13:46 Eli: Or Allergy shot now, okay, now I'm questioning all of allergy science, but like allergy shots, they're like, "Oh no, we give you one shot a week and then you're just not allergic to the thing you're allergic to anymore." Exactly.

0:14:00 Tom: See, maybe we should have given Elizabeth Holmes a little more time to work on that Theranos project. You know? Maybe we all jumped the gun, thrown her in jail because it didn't work. Maybe if we just waited six, seven more months, we'd have had, you know, a single drop of blood allergy test. But, you don't know. We all had to doubt. All Had to Doubt.

0:14:05 Eli: There you go, she would have cracked it,

0:14:17 Thomas: She was on the verge she was on the I'm glad we finally uncovered the, like, Trojan horse of this podcast was just to revamp Elizabeth Holmes' reputation, which is, like, so here's the thing, we've got this goodwill of this audience, she got a bad rap okay, she I'm telling you, she was just about to change the world, okay?

0:14:30 Eli: Got a bad rap.

0:14:36 Thomas: We all start talking.

0:14:33 Tom: It was on the verge on the verge

0:14:38 Thomas: Anyway, sorry.

0:14:39 Eli: Favorite, my thing about that story is that they were going to have machines in CVS, like the little arm cuffy one, like you'd be like, okay, got the baby Tyler all on the type. Oh, you know what, let me press my thumb into this open dispenser and have it draw some blood. I would love to see if I have diabetes. Give me one second. Ah, okay, there we go. Sure, that's sanitary.

0:14:59 Thomas: Hey,

0:14:46 Tom: Yes yep yeah no diabetes but I do have hep C now that's good

0:15:03 Thomas: You know how enjoyable that was both for the main character and how it, you know, diagnosed his medical conditions. Let's do that. You stick your hand in a mystery box and see if you can keep it in through unbearable pain, but, know, who's probably toxically self -reliant.

0:15:13 Eli: Let's do that, you know where

0:15:22 Thomas: I don't know. Elizabeth, Elizabeth Holmes.

0:15:23 Tom: What a transition wait

0:15:21 Eli: Am I at Eliz the Penny Jezzerin

0:15:25 Tom: That I liked how seamless that felt that was good Elizabeth Elizabeth Holmes.

0:15:26 Thomas: Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm assuming in the editing, I edited in like several different conversations to get us there. I didn't even know how that would work.

0:15:33 Eli: Yes.

0:15:37 Tom: Well, this is a topic that I suggested that we we talk about because it's something I've been thinking about a lot lately with respect to my own. So all my kids are starting to get old enough to where, you there's a level of self-reliance that I'm trying to impart on the kids. And so I think about this, you know, I think about it a lot. I think like, well, all right, you I don't want the kids to have to fucking rely on me for every little thing. I don't want them to rely on me for at some point much of anything and then I got to thinking about that idea about like self-reliance and Thomas, this is something I know you and I both share, like I a strong like preference toward a sort of bizarrely like level of self-reliance to the point where if I need someone to help me and that's why I did the grocery intro, it would never in a million years occur to me to ask somebody for help, like, I know.

0:16:24 Thomas: Yep. Yep. Oh, No. Interesting.

0:16:30 Tom: We joked earlier about like back problems, but even when, even right before my back surgery, my back was fucked up, my leg was barely there's nowhere in that time period where I was like, uh, can I get a hand with something, there's no way, there'sno way.

And in fact, thinking back at it, the thing that I was worried about the most, and this is for real, the thing I was worried about most, was man, for about, about a week, I'm going to need someone to help me after surgery. And I didn't like it. I did not like even knowing that I would be in a place where I was going to needs other people to help. I don't, I have a problem with it.

And, and I recognize that that is not a healthy attitude towards self -reliance, but I also know that like being overly reliant on others is every bit as problematic. So it's a topic that I want to bring up to you guys, cause I actually don't know how to find that middle space, and it's a middle space that I definitely have to teach my kids how to fine, so I'm really curious what your relationships are with

0:17:29 Tom: Self-reliance.

0:17:29 Thomas: So, When I first read or heard about the fact that like people in, I, traumatic upbringings do form this toxic self -reliance. And it hit home with me so hard because I've always been that way. And right away, I'm almost wondering if, if it's a little bit different, Tom, what you're talking about, that, one I'm talking about. I'm not sure, because first off, I don't think it's anything thing you can teach.

I think that what will happen is your kids know that when they go to you, know, you're probably going to roast them a little bit, but you're a safe person to go to for help. And I imagine, like, I don't know your day to day, and this could, again, really be projecting my experience. But speaking from how I view it from my very weird experience, I view I'll step back. I view my toxic self -reliance as probably first and foremost, a product of every with such a volatile, unpleasant family member taking care of me that everything you asked him was it was hell. It was hell as a kid to ask my dad. And we just didn't, we did everything we could to avoid asking my dad anything because it just was, I don't know how to describe it. It's not like he beat us or something, but just like the the amount of damage you can do to kids by just being kind of shitty all the time. Or like, you know, when,

0:18:14 Tom: Yeah. Sure.

0:18:49 Thomas: When like they're so, they're so joyous and impressionable that it doesn't take much to be like, oh, that's a negative feeling. I think that's a really and I think, you know, it's kind of speculation, but I think that just a sort of a childhood of that of like, hey, can we and then just getting the worst fucking either silent treatment or harsh no answers to everything. I think That's probably what feels to me like where it comes from most of all. And so I would I would guess Tom that like that's something that's not something intentionally taught. That's that's an experiential thing that happened every interaction that just baked into my brain. Whereas I don't think your kids will will likely have that because hopefully they have, you know, much better parental figures in their interacting with.

0:18:50 Tom: Yeah. Sure.

0:19:34 Tom: Don't know why I'm that way, though, my dad was not shitty if I asked for help, like, but My Dad, I just sort, sort of ballparking. I don't really know, but like my dad very much felt like an island unto himself. Like he didn't, he seemed like a guy who had it all down and didn't need any help. And that's just in my mind is what grownups were like in my mine, Grownups are people that have their fucking shit tight. You know, that's it. Like you've got all your ducks lined up in a row and you can get done all of the things that need to happen for you and your family. And you don't have to raise your hand and ask for help. And if you can't do that, you're not a fucking grownup. And

0:19:38 Thomas: That's interesting.

0:19:53 Eli: Yeah.

0:19:51 Thomas: Yeah. Right. But you don't Think maybe the a little bit of the what happened with your mom could have bred like a need to.

0:20:14 Eli: Also. Tom, I've heard some stories that are definitely not the dad in the best light, uh, may refer you to section one code two, uh, the first time you threw up at your dad's house, which a story you have yet to share with our audience.

0:20:20 Tom: Yeah. Oh,

0:20:29 Thomas: Oh, I don't do I even know this? What is this?

0:20:29 Eli: Yeah,

0:20:30 Tom: Yeah. So, No, I told this to Eli just in years ago, I think, yeah. So when I moved in with my dad I was six years old or so

0:20:35 Thomas: Oh, shit. Eli, you got bonus content. Fuck. How do I sign it?

0:20:39 Eli: I think, well, get ready everybody because, because I think about this story three times a day, every single day.

0:20:43 Tom: I know, you love this story, I forget about this story. Yeah, I, I moved him with my, my dad, and I was, uh, you know, middle of first grades, you're still pretty small, you're six, you know, going on, so I was not seven yet, I was just turning seven, six, seven, and uh, I remember at some point I, I got sick to my stomach, so I, you know, I, I got up and I went in the bathroom and I vomited in the bath, and I, you remember yelling out to my dad, I was like, dad, I threw up, and he's like, okay, let me know when you're done. And I was just like, uh, okay, we'll do. I didn't know like what to Expect. I was like, but like, what's he going to do? Like hold my, my hair, like, I don't have hair to hold, I

0:21:18 Thomas: Okay. We'll, yeah. I

0:21:18 Eli: And, yes, because you were six! Yes! You were six, Tom! He was supposed to come in and pat your back and check on you because you are a six-year-old child, Tom. Yes!

0:21:27 Tom: Yeah.

0:21:41 Thomas: Forgot the age as you said that, because I was thinking I was envisioning older, I was like, oh, this is pretty normal, yeah, whatever. And then, yes, six, I'm telling you, Phoebe's five, and you know, she'll be six somewhat soon, and visceral experience of seeing, I described it last week, of seeing your delightful, joyous little kid be sick is so, so gut-wrenching to me personally that I could not do anything other than be at their side in some way Or the other.

0:22:07 Eli: Not Tom's dad. Tom's Dad had wooden ducks to carve and books to throw into The recycling bin. So

0:22:09 Thomas: Yeah. Huh.

0:22:16 Tom: He Just like, like, like he didn't deal with that, like he didn't deal with with vomit period, like it just was not, like he just wasn't going to be, and the same, like, he's not going to do it, like he's not. And you know,

0:22:26 Eli: So Tom, If you're wondering where that toxic self-reliance came from, as you wiped the vomit from your six-year-old lips and went back to bed alone, that you were like, I'm gonna carry all the groceries, that's how it fucking happened, my guy.

0:22:42 Tom: But you know I, like I, I recognize that, that, all right. Like it's not, it's not great. I guess I intellectually recognize it's not great that it hurts me to raise my hand and ask for help. I also look at my life and I'm like, yeah, but I got a lot of shit done. It's not been an entirely bad thing, right?

0:22:43 Eli: Yeah.

0:22:59 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. That's where I struggle too. We've talked about this.

0:23:02 Tom: Yeah. Been times where I've gotten help, so I don't want to pretend that I'm some self-made man. I'm not. I have had help. In 2008, after the housing crisis and I worked in real estate and my income crashed to next to nothing, I got some family help. I got to live in a house for very little money for a couple of years while my income recovered and that, that saved me from going bankrupt.

Um, I have had help, but it was fucking humiliating and that's the part that I think is toxic, is that the help that was given to me was given me joyfully and without any strings attached, and it was humiliating, and it felt, and this is, this is tying into that masculinity part, it felt very emasculating to be the provider, because I've always been the the provider for my family, and to be like, I can't provide, I am not providing, I have failed in my responsibility. And I'm simultaneously of two minds, it's like I look at that level of reliance and I'm like, yeah, that's that I think has made me a lot of the good things that I am, but also, like, if I ever have to raise my hand and ask for help, I take a lot of damage there and

0:23:03 Thomas: Yeah.

0:23:38 Eli: And Yeah.

0:24:17 Tom: I'm not sure how to, like, bridge that gap and and talk about it with the kids in a way that lets them have the good parts of self-reliance without this sort of, like, that goes with having to raise your hand and

0:24:17 Eli: Yeah.

0:24:30 Thomas: Hear from Eli for what a normal human mindset might be.

0:24:33 Eli: Also, well, you know, so one of the things that comes up a lot, and that's sort of like this, is what made me like this, made me tough, this made me strong, is like a lot of the time you were probably, it probably didn't make you strong. Right. What doesn't kill you probably does lasting permanent damage in every situation. Right.

So a lot of the time what people are describing when they say like, oh, but now I can do this, or now I can do that, that often is ignoring the statement of, but then of course there was this tremendous amount of suffering. Right.

And to use myself, my own dumb ass, is an example, right, I've talked a couple of times on the show now about, like, that gap in the summer where I decided I was gonna live off the land like Wolverine through the Canadian forest and decided to, like, street perform for money for food, and that meant early on I sometimes didn't have food. Right? As much as I can look back and be like, oh, but but that made me a great salesman and like this, that, or the other, I think I probably would have been an okay salesman. I think I probably still would have liked magic and been a good performer, but I wouldn't have, like, cried myself to sleep because my stomach hurts so bad and I didn't have

0:25:17 Tom: Oh. God.

0:25:42 Eli: Anything to eat, right? And like when I finally came to my parents, part of their horror, all jokes aside, part their horror was like, why the fuck did you think you couldn't talk to us about this, and it was again because of that because of that toxic masculinity, because I, I had modeled onto my dad was such a self -made man who had come from genuine poverty and it had hard times, and I had heard about the hard times that he had had, right, at one point he had to live on a boat off the New York Harbor because he was like in between jobs, and so he would fish for his food, and I remember

0:25:53 Tom: So. Why did you think that Jesus.

0:26:17 Thomas: Holy

0:26:17 Eli: Thinking to myself as a yeah I remember thinking to myself like yeah, I remember thinking to myself, like, oh, this is just like, this is my time living on a boat, and I sort of said something along those lines, and my dad was like, we did not want you to go through that, this is, this was not a good time. Me reading the same paperback novel every day, cover to cover, while I hoped a fish would bite somewhere off the coast of Manhattan Island, did not help help anybody anywhere at any time.

0:26:17 Thomas: Shit. Is he Gollum? That?

0:26:18 Tom: Christ. What

0:26:49 Thomas: Is? Oh. Great, the one time Eli ever had it hard in his life, he's like, yeah, I could have avoided all of that, now go to zero times you ever had it, oh my

0:26:56 Eli: I could have Yeah. Absolutely, I've, so we didn't get to, it would you guys like to guess what I do when I'm done with my grocery shopping? I pull up in front of the house, I call my wife, hey, I'm here, come help me with the groceries, I don't care if it's three bags, I'll get two, she gets one, and then we walk up the stairs together perfectly laden with with our lightweight groceries.

0:27:22 Thomas: I will say, okay, I, on one hand, I'm reacting badly, on the other hand, I think, think I need to come clean about something, um

0:27:28 Eli: Make Lydia carry all the groceries in by herself.

0:27:29 Thomas: No. No. I, I, the groceries thing, I don't even count that, because that's just downright pleasurable to me, like I just love, I enjoy, just there was a just a fucking minivan full of groceries, I would enjoy grabbing all the bags and trying to carry them all at once, I just like it, that's that's me having fun, but

0:27:46 Eli: Like video games. But it's cool. Yeah.

0:27:48 Tom: Got two 16 year old boys, and I wouldn't ask them for help with the groceries either, like that's, like when Hayley and I pull up, I, we pull up from the groceries, I always look at her and I'm like, hey, I'll make you a deal, if you'll carry in this drink, because she always brings a drink with her, if you're carrying this drink, I'll, I'll get, I'll get the groceries if you are okay with that right so

0:28:00 Thomas: But, but yeah, right. Cause there's always one loose thing that doesn't go with the whole system. You know, like, yeah.

0:28:07 Eli: Absolutely.

0:28:08 Tom: It's a joke like, I like, I make a joke and I am like, you got to carry this though like, I know, I'll I'll get the grocery, but you got to get this like Pepsi this like one

0:28:12 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. You got to get this like letter that we picked up from the mailbox.

0:28:16 Tom: Right yeah I got the mailbox, yeah so and so it is just like this, like, funny thing, but I could just, I got two sixteen year old boys, I could be just like, bringing the groceries, guys, but there's literally no way I would do it

0:28:18 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:27 Eli: Hayley.

0:28:27 Thomas: That's certainly what my dad, certainly what My Dad did.

0:28:29 Tom: Yeah I'll

0:28:29 Eli: Hayley? I know you're listening Hayley, next time he pulls into the garage, you run. You get the two and the child, the little ones. I want the whole family out snatching stuff out of Tom's hand. I want him sitting there, hands shaking, screaming at you through the windshield that he hasn't earned his rest. I want the car empty before he opens his door.

0:28:42 Tom: Fight them, it'll be American gladiators how do

0:28:51 Thomas: I have a bunch of examples of this, But I'm realizing when you mentioned Haley and the groceries, I'm realizing now that as much as I'm completely toxic, self -reliant, I don't know what the toxic is. That seems weird word to put there. I just have to do everything. The last move that we did last year, just need to do it all myself. I know I could hire movers, but I just can't. That's, they're just, it's just a bunch of, no, it is just a bunch of my shit. I don't know. I do not fucking, I got to do it. It is mine.

I did not know. If I described, Eli, how difficult that move was, I think you would kill me. Like, it Just, I rented a, like you know, a moving van for a week and every day loaded as much as I could into it and drove back back and forth about the 30 minutes to the new place. And I wanted to do everything. My wife was pregnant at the time. Uh, you know, it was the pregnancy that didn't work out. Very um, early pregnancy. She was barely pregnant. It wasn't, you know. It, it didn't work out. So there wasn't much of a time

0:29:13 Eli: You didn't hire movers?

0:29:26 Eli: Yeah. Yeah,

0:29:52 Thomas: That she was pregnant, but anyway.

0:29:52 Eli: It's Arlo, we know.

0:29:59 Thomas: Yeah. Whatever happened to that pregnancy?

0:29:54 Tom: You know, Lydia carried that one, thing of sun butter and that was what did the whole, that's

0:30:01 Thomas: Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

0:30:04 Eli: Didn't work out. He just points a thumb at Arlo.

0:30:04 Thomas: No, no. She didn't. I was like, like Hey, don't don't grab that sun butter because you know I don't and she he should have been exposed to it, yeah Um, and so there are obviously, uh, in any household several very heavy things that one person shouldn't carry and the oh, that was the couch, is the easiest part, that was no problem because you just move, here's the other thing, I worked in in a field of construction, that is carrying heavy things and putting them on roofs and in houses, so it was like I delivered shivered sheet rock, which my God, sheets of sheet rock is the heaviest fucking shit, do you have any experience with that, Tom

0:30:11 Tom: How Allergies Start God Damn it

0:30:19 Eli: Right, like a couch.

0:30:40 Eli: This I actually do know because remember, I cask of a Montalado with my, uh, my stepu.

0:30:41 Thomas: Oh that's right, yeah, um

0:30:41 Tom: Oh Yeah I've remodeled and yeah, yeah, yeah Concrete board's a bitch too, entertainment

0:30:48 Eli: Yeah. Wait,

0:30:48 Thomas: And there would be all different, you know, sizes and all that, that I don't remember now, where biggest size was, just like, it was, and again, I was fucking 19 or whatever, so I took pride in the fact that I could carry this shit, with now, you carry it with a lifting buddy, of course you don't carry that yourself, self, uh, so from that experience, I'm like, no, I can get anything into this moving van, like I can do it somehow, and I would, every item, like, like this, this media cabinet, this nice, you real wood, pretty heavy entertainment center media cabinet thing, Lydia was like, well, we can't do that obviously, and this would be everything, like every single item, she'd be like, like, this dresser that weighs 300 pounds, we're not doing that, though, right?

And I'd be like, what do you mean we're not doing it? We have to move everything to the new house. She's like, what do you, how would we possibly do that? And every time I was like, just, I'll just do it. I don't know how to explain it. I will do it somehow. And so, and like I did it.

I don't know, like, you can with a heavy thing, you can like lean it, you know, against the the bottom of the bed of the fucking van or the truck. And then you can, like, shift. And then I can, you know, lift under it. There's techniques so that you can basically do everything yourself, which of course I did, except for a few times I had to have Lydia help with something really heavy. Uh, know, I think I could have been arrested for that. Now that I think about it, it was, um, pretty bad.

0:32:02 Eli: So wait, you weren't, when the, when push came to shove, you were like, wow, I guess it's time to swallow my pride and have my pregnant wife lift this bedroom dresser. I, um, there are no other solutions, uh that I can possibly think of.

0:32:14 Tom: Oh,

0:32:11 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, so next rank up when it comes to self -reliance, the The next rank up is your family. Still important that the family unit of me is self -reliant as a whole. And so occasionally that means that my wife has to help me lift a heavy thing. Mind you, I had her lift it, you know, like as little as possible. Like it was just to try to like stop the friction so I could push it, you know kind of thing or whatever it was. Like

0:32:32 Tom: See, I feel totally different about this. I would hire help before I would ask someone I know for help in second. I would, I don't mind hiring help. Like

0:32:47 Thomas: Well, this is like carrying something 15 feet to get it into a, you know what I mean? Like we're almost there. I did everything else. It was just like a couple, a couple of things that I just needed her to help me, you Know, edge around a little bit.

0:32:58 Tom: OK.

0:33:00 Eli: I would John Q my neighbors before I would have asked pregnant Hannah. I would've just walked in with a gun, hey, very specific kidnapping, that dresser to that truck, and then you're free to go, right?

0:33:13 Thomas: Oh,

0:33:12 Tom: Yeah, I guess I guess I never minded asking buddies to help me move. I've had Cecil's help me move a number of times. I've heard people help me move. I've never thought of that as just a in my mind. That's never been a one man's job. Like I've moved a lot in my life and that's never been a one man job.

0:33:26 Thomas: So yeah, that is why I am so interested because the way we have described it Tom, the way you have described yours, I think we have pretty different things going on. Like like pretty, I think yours might be more, maybe more tied to masculinity in a way that mine is just purely not wanting to ever interact with other people or have to ask anyone.

0:33:37 Tom: Yeah.

0:33:48 Eli: Yours is pure trauma response. In

0:33:50 Thomas: Yeah. Mine is just, I don't want the unpleasant experience because in my, even though it's completely illogical in my brain wired from when I was, you know, yay high is, oh, what if I asked for something. Ah, super negative experience. Oh, okay. I'm not doing that. I don't want to do it.

0:34:06 Eli: Your head the movers will pick up the phone and be your dad, like there's just, oh, lazy piece of shit. Yeah.

0:34:13 Thomas: Yeah, that's a funny way of joking about it. But more accurately, it just isn't something I think of. You know, I'm just like, well, that is not. You complete.

0:34:20 Tom: Right.

0:34:21 Eli: You learned, you learned to avoid the pain of that, right?

0:34:24 Thomas: That is a funny thing I think is interesting that maybe it is hard for some people who don't have stuff like this to relate to. It is not that I go through the normal person thought first of, hmm, I should look in the the phone book and hire some movers to do it's like Yeah.

0:34:36 Tom: No. It never occurs to you.

0:34:38 Thomas: No, I'm just like, all right, so I gotta do this and I'll figure that out and uh, yeah.

0:34:39 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:34:41 Eli: When there's a hard thing you're like, how am I gonna do that? Oh, that's gonna be hard for me to do, that's

0:34:42 Thomas: Yeah. Exactly. Yep. Yep. I

0:34:48 Tom: Yeah. Say a hundred percent, I like, I'll raise my hand and say I know that it is a hundred for me tied to toxic masculinity, like I, I am a hundred aware of that, like admitting like you can't do something. And I think in my mind, I think in everybody's, well, I don't want to say everybody, but I think in my, there's some sort of like categorical things that are not one man job things, like like moving, it would not bother me to hire movers or ask a buddy for help moving. I've helped a bunch of people move in my mind. That's just a, that's a team effort sort of a thing, but like, I don't want to, like, I don't want to ever be seen as incompetent or seen as incapable. That's not, it's just like, I can't, I can't abide that idea.

0:34:48 Eli: Okay, sure.

0:35:28 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, I have that too, a little bit but yeah, yeah.

0:35:31 Tom: I, when, when Haley and I were in London, my back, it was when I realized that I was going to have to have back surgery, cause my back became, became like just unbearably painful and like had a really difficult time, it was really very difficult for me to turn to her at one point, like two or three days into our vacation, and say, I just physically can't do the things that we plan to do and we have to change our plans because I, I can't walk, I'm not going to be able to walk, I went through two or three days like shamble stepping, stepping my way around with gritted teeth, trying to like, I was like, I can probably do it, I can possibly get there, I'm miserable, I'm in like, I'm an absolutely searing pain and my leg is starting not to work right.

And I'm just like, I can't do it anymore. I can only probably make it another four or five days. And I couldn't. And I finally had to turn to her and say, like, I can't do it and I can't tell you how difficult it was think like, I'm going to disappoint someone because I can't do something. It was

0:36:09 Thomas: Huh.

0:36:17 Eli: Yeah.

0:36:27 Tom: Very, very difficult for me to be able to do that.

0:36:27 Thomas: So this is very interesting. I think the key difference, and this is um, hard to be open about it because it's kind of embarrassing, but I think I, I mainly know what's going on is just the lifetime of like bitter, as I've already said, bitter interactions and also bitter mockery from my dad that I'm just always, what my stupid fear is, really in my dumb brain that will never go away, is I get someone to help me move and they walk in the house, they're like, what the fuck is all this shit, this is stupid, what is that, why do you have this, what is, like, and a litany of mocking criticisms would go through, you know, like, that's, that's what's the the quick reaction jerk from my dad, which is like, I want to completely sidestep every chance for anyone to ever do that, to, really unhealthy, and I think Tom, I've identified, I feel like your thing, if if society views it as an okay time for you to ask for help, then I think you're, you know, moving or whatever ever, yeah, like it's more about like that expectation. Whereas me, it's like, no, it literally just is an interaction with a person. Like I just don't want to ever do it.

0:36:43 Tom: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

0:36:44 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:37:23 Tom: Think I'm comfortable asking for help, yeah, yeah. Right

0:37:34 Eli: And I think the key word there that Tom hit on and that you're hinting at, Thomas, is disappointment, right? Idea of like disappointing others, right? And Tom was sort of raised in this, hey, don't disappoint others, you got to be there for others, but Thomas, you were raised in, you're a disappointment, you're disappointed, you're never, give someone the opportunity to be disappointed, it's like, hey, I can't disappoint you if I never ask, right? If you never knew that I needed help, I can't disappoint you.

0:38:01 Thomas: Yeah. Or if I'm just not even there. Yeah, if I've, yeah.

0:38:01 Eli: Um,

0:38:04 Tom: If you just don't interact with you at all, then we can't have a negative interaction.

0:38:06 Eli: Right Exactly.

0:38:06 Thomas: All right. If I leave as soon as I can and don't have to ever fucking ask you for anything. Yeah.

0:38:09 Eli: Right That, that avoids that disappointment, and because it was hit to me, because again, I was aware as a kid that I should be a disappointment, over and over again. Right. And and so I would ask my dad all the time, like, are you disappointed in me? Are you proud of me? And he would emphasize to me over and over and over again how proud he was of me and how important that is to do for kids, right? We don't think of that as an important thing to tell our kids necessarily, right, like, I love you, is very kind of like, we're supposed to, yeah, you gotta tell your kids you love them or they turn out weird. But like, I am proud of you is such an essential thing to instill in a kid. And because I had that, as, and like we joke about it, it's a joke on all my shows and with all my friends, I am happy to be incompetent all the time.

0:38:23 Thomas: Hmm. Hmm, yeah,

0:39:00 Eli: And I I am unaffected by my incompetence. I'm like, oh guys, you gotta hear about me backing over this baby carriage, do I have a bone mow for you, you disagree.

0:39:03 Thomas: Yeah. Again, we got to find the proper balance here. You shouldn't really be happy with child murder. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's not quite that. It's a little bit, I think it is that too, but also it's even more stupid than that, which is my dad was just profoundly lazy and didn't want to be bothered. It wasn't being a disappointment, it was that anything I asked was such a burden that he would take it out on us with, you know, with these fucking, with his mockery and these jokes and he's everything, like it's not, I don't even, I, I don't think I was at all a disappointment to my dad, I think he was, much as he would never say it, I think you probably was pretty proud of some things that I did, um.

0:39:47 Tom: Thing that I find really fascinating is how pervasive this, so even in Eli's fig, growing up right in his fig hammock world that he lived in with his dad, that was always proud of him and was never disappointed in him, when shit hit the fan, you still were like crying yourself to sleep hungry because that, like, kind

0:40:08 Thomas: I don't t even think I would have done that, that's what's weird, you

0:40:08 Eli: No,

0:40:08 Tom: Of conditioning you social conditioning is so powerful that you didn't, even though I think like Eli, you had no, you had no like childhood reason to feel like you couldn't raise your hand and ask for help, but you felt similarly to how I feel now and do you, but the difference is I don't think you feel that way at all now, like I think the sense that I get from you now is that, yeah, so

0:40:19 Eli: No.

0:40:28 Eli: Absolutely.

0:40:31 Thomas: Wouldn't go 45, five minutes with without being hungry. I just wouldn't do it. That's the sense I get.

0:40:33 Eli: Thomas has has now subsisted in the house with me for a week, so he is aware that I don't limit myself to five meals a day like everyone else, so fucking insanity, that is no.

0:40:47 Tom: You Don't feel that way anymore, Eli, you're, you've completely like you've complete, you're completely shed that skin, oh,

0:40:49 Eli: I I shed that skin largely. Well, so I'm, I'm gonna be super honest, mental illness is a hell of a way to learn that lesson. Um, hey, Tom, may I make a recommendation, going through a genuine nervous breakdown where you can't get out of bed for months at a time? Oh boy. Does that teach you to let go?

0:41:06 Tom: Oh.

0:41:11 Thomas: Engages your problem solving skills a little bit.

0:41:12 Eli: Yeah. Really gets rid of that word. But like, no, the truth of the matter is like the fact that my mental illness has at times meant that I'm incapable of doing anything, but like lying in bed and weeping, uh, means that that I've just had to accept my own limitations, right? Just like any disability. You know, I use the metaphor of glasses a lot. And you've never had to wear glasses, you probably don't know how insane it is to try to navigate the world without them, Right. I think a lot of people are navigating the world without their metaphorical glasses, but because, again, I've had such severe, such damaging mental illness over the years that's that's just stopped me and my tracks. I've learned that I, I sometimes have to rely on people, um,

0:41:39 Thomas: Yeah.

0:41:57 Thomas: I love this. This is so on brand because like, nope, I, I've, my wife does all kinds of things. Like I've never, I never thought that you guys seem to have, and this actually came up in the quote unquote chivalry discussion a little bit, I think, which is like, I don't know. I seem to be more on the side of like, if I need to ask my wife for help with something, first off, it means I've exhausted every single possible try of me doing it myself. And this rarely happens, but I'm happy to have her do it. But I think it would be taking away. I think would be kind of insulting to her to suggest that there aren't a million things per day that she does that it'd be a joke to say I'm self-reliant quote unquote. I mean, we have kids, we have, we have all kinds of shit that has to be done that I can't, I don't, and probably couldn't just do myself. Um, I don't know, I think that's kind of important to like incorporate that entire calculus in it, you

0:41:58 Eli: Yeah.

0:42:20 Tom: Yeah.

0:42:47 Tom: At least I would say like having grown up a single parent household and having on a few different occasions been, in the acting role of a single, you know, been, being, been the person who's the breadwinner plus done the bulk of the childcare. I look at it and I'm like, yeah, there's, there shouldn't be anything I can't do. Like, I don't, I won't accept the idea that there's something I can.

0:43:07 Eli: Yeah.

0:42:52 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah, I could do anything. There's a finite number of hours in the day though.

0:43:09 Tom: But, I, I will, will say, like, I don't like the idea that I can't do it and do it comfortably. Like, feel like, I guess I do, I feel like fairly strongly, like, yeah, all right, I, you know, there, I know how much work this is. This is a volume of work that is doable. I've seen it be done. I've done it. It's attained. It can be done. It doesn't break your back. It, not as hard, it's just, it, like, it's not actually as hard in my view, just just amount the of work it takes to just like when you say like there's like stuff that like you like you need Lydia to do for example,

0:43:33 Thomas: What are we talking about here? Well, I I think a lot of it is like emotional labor. A lot of is like, oh, fuck, Phoebe has the thing today. That's the fucking bring this form to the thing. And like, I'm, I am really trying to do my part on that every day. But I don't think I could ever honestly say I'm doing anything like 50 50 on the emotional labor, you know. I think that's such a, I, this may not at all apply to you fellows, but I want to make sure, for anyone, for any dudes listening who might have this attitude that they're this self -reliant does everything, I would worry that there's a whole lot of emotional labor going on that they are just ignoring, that they are not doing, and their wife is doing, possibly. That's all I wanted to say.

0:44:13 Tom: Sure. Yeah.

0:44:14 Eli: Yeah. No. Okay. I, I was wondering why you were bringing it up, but I see now what you, what you're bringing up is that Like, hey, this self-reliance thing is an illusion, and there's a lot of stuff you're not seeing that that your partner is doing, that someone else is. Okay, cool. Yeah, because I was trying to get how you got there from me talking about mental illness, because I was like, yeah, you know, my mental illness.

0:44:19 Tom: Understand differently. Yeah.

0:44:23 Thomas: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Well, because it would be the emotional labor of your wife having to help you in that moment is not something I would even consider because for me I like this is not for know I already said it but it's more about exterior people to the house like I know that Lydia loves me and I knowthat she accepts me andI know that she's part of that we're a team together we're a unit together so that'snot really even getting help for me getting help is asking somebody outside our house you know and so that's that's what made me think sorry I didn't transition that well but what made me think about is yeah like I wouldn't have even thought like if anna helps you because you're fucking bedridden I'd be like yeah that's not that's Not really asking for help that's just part of what your relationship should be you

0:45:00 Eli: Right. No, no, no. I get it now.

0:45:13 Eli: Right, but I think through Tom's perspective, and certainly where my perspective's been in the past, is like, that is something you should do by yourself. You shouldn't be bedridden. You should not need that support.

0:45:23 Thomas: Right gotcha well

0:45:24 Tom: I would, I would That would be devastating to my sense of self if I, if I needed that level of help, like, I would, and I know that that's the part that I recognize is not good. That's the part that that I recognized. Like I should be able to lean on other people, but like, and I think about my kids to bring it back to the parenting piece of it. Like, I think about the kids and I do not want them to need other people to run their lives, to be functional, to be happy, to, I don't want them to, I don t, yeah, I don't t want that. I think that they sh

0:45:30 Eli: Okay,

0:45:33 Thomas: Sure yeah need other people to be happy everybody needs other people To be happy that's even me even me you're talking to a guy who tried who broke his entire body trying to move shit for no fucking reason rather than talk to a person but I need Lydia to be happy everybody needs somebody well

0:46:04 Tom: What what I mean to say what I don't know I I I don't know there are there are plenty of people that ARE SINGLE AND HAPPY

0:46:19 Thomas: Okay everybody except your dad needs human relationships and connections

0:46:19 Tom: NO NO LIKE THERE

0:46:21 Eli: He Needed. That Handshake Once A week.

0:46:23 Thomas: Yeah

0:46:23 Tom: THERE ARE there are plenty of people out there that are that are single and happy I

0:46:28 Eli: Hey,

0:46:25 Thomas: He really lives on that weekly handshake I you know you're right it really does sustain him

0:46:30 Tom: Think WE DO OURSELVES A DISSERVICE I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF DUDES OUT THERE SPECIFICALLY AND THIS KIND OF GOES BACK TO THE the sign. So to bring it all the way back, there's a lot of fucking mama boys, motherfuckers out there who are rather than self -reliant who

0:46:30 Thomas: Yeah

0:46:42 Eli: Hey, Tom, you're

0:46:45 Thomas: You're gonna get a letter from from Eli's mom mom about that I

0:46:46 Eli: A motherfucker. You mean our patron, Liz Rosenberg.

0:46:50 Thomas: Can't

0:46:49 Tom: That's for me, like from Liz, I just, it'll be beautifully written. You know, she's a Lee Bennett Hopkins award winner.

0:46:54 Thomas: Tom I can't wait till you see uh Eli's mom in the shirt I am a fucking if you insult my boy for being a mom oh

0:47:02 Eli: My mama's boy, oh,

0:47:01 Tom: But what I, what I mean though, though, is that there's... there's a lot of men out there who are intentionally bad at all kinds of parts of emotional labor, for example, or, you know, other types of labor. They are not self -sufficient. They aren't self -reliant. They intentionally.

0:47:14 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah right that's that illusion we were talking about yeah

0:47:17 Eli: Okay. Yes.

0:47:23 Tom: Right. So so shit is unacceptable. Right? That's unacceptable in men and it's unacceptable and women. Right don't grow up to need. So they should be able to get an apartment, live on their own and be single and function in their lives in a reliant, happy way that doesn't require them to be in a relationship in order for them to have an and, and, fulfilling life.

0:47:23 Thomas: Absolutely 100 yeah sure yeah yeah I guess I just just don't I don't think that's anything that you're gonna teach you know I feel like I that's just constitutional to people some people are very comfortable being single and whatever and getting fulfillment in different ways and some people just aren't I think that'S really constitutional personally I don't know I'm

0:47:50 Eli: Right.

0:47:53 Tom: Why not?

0:48:05 Tom: Yeah. I don't know. I think, I the ideal deal would be to be happy. And yeah,

0:48:09 Thomas: Talking about to be happy I'm they should be able to be you know competent and be able to get by I'm not saying that I'm saying like mm

0:48:14 Eli: Independent. Yeah.

0:48:15 Tom: And I'm not saying that you're at like, so let me make sure I'm making my position clear. Like, I don't think that they would be as entirely fulfilled as they would be in a loving romantic relationship. But I also think that there is a subset of people who have never learned how to be fully emotionally independent. And so they bounce from their There are parents who take care of them, to a relationship where someone takes care of them, and there is always this lack of competency that in part drives their need to be with somebody.

0:48:19 Thomas: -hmm sure mm -hmm Hmm. Sure.

0:48:35 Eli: Yeah.

0:48:53 Eli: I-

0:48:53 Tom: And so people end up in shitty relationships, they end up overly reliant, they end up burdening other people, and that's bad news. That's bad new for everybody around. Round. The, the relationship should stem not from, I can't, will you to, I can, let's do it together. And that's the, that's the sort of self -reliance that's healthy, I think.

0:49:10 Thomas: Right. Right, right. Yeah. I was, I was just latching onto the happy. You said happiness. That's the part I was latching on to, you know, but yeah, I, I think I see what you mean. Yeah,

0:49:20 Tom: Yeah. So, so that's why I wanted to back up and clarify. Right.

0:49:24 Eli: Some of those people who maybe have are babied by their parents and then jump from relationship to relationship to relationships, sometimes they turn out awesome them too, just for the record, some of them are like super cool and they can kick kick real high just get just wanted to throw all the options out there that sometimes they're great and they can do super high kicks, you can't kick high, I kick so much higher. Okay.

0:49:33 Thomas: I

0:49:41 Tom: I'm not saying it's always bad. Yeah. I I I'm not saying it's always bad, but like you can't always have someone around to kill your wasps for you, you know, at some point you got to kill your own fucking wasps

0:49:55 Eli: See you're completely losing me, Tom, this is this is what I'm talking about. I have no idea, where I'll move out of the apartment, is that what you want me to do? You want to just leave the house is the wasps now? The terrorists win.

0:50:05 Thomas: Before we go, know, I did want to share that I had a realization just in when Tom messaged about this topic that I found very funny. Um, this is seriously something I just hadn't occurred to me. I don't think you guys will care much about, well, no, I guess Eli, you play, you're a bit of a video gamer. Tom, you probably won't care about this. You can tune out. It's okay. No, but I know a lot of our listeners are big video game nerds and stuff. And I realized, yeah, sure. That's fine. I realized it was the Etruscans. No, I realized that I happened just to be like playing a game, I think, maybe in some part of the time when I saw your chat, and I was realizing that I've always completely, this is completely dominated my video game playing in certain games. Like, there's, thing that I'm super attracted to, like let's say back in the day I played, oh, know that game, Eli?

0:50:29 Tom: Oh, what's that I was tuning out?

0:50:55 Thomas: Yeah, it is like a shooting game, it was like Halo meets fucking RPG kinda, right? For, I just realizing the thing I loved the most about for that game is if there was a raid thingy that took three people, I would look up if there was a way to do it yourself. And

0:50:35 Eli: Sure yeah of course yeah yeah Oh, God, oh,

0:51:11 Thomas: Then I'd be like, this is amazing. I'm doing this myself, even though it takes three people.

0:51:16 Eli: God, you were the solo raids in fucking World of Warcraft 2. Thomas,

0:51:19 Tom: I

0:51:18 Thomas: Yeah. I just, I want to do, if it's possible. I wanted to, I realizing that's what, and it's hard because I just find it fun, like I, that's what I really enjoy in the game, like I, in any game, if there's a thing that takes two or three people or characters or whatever, and somehow there's a way to either hack it or be so good that you can do it yourself, that's like, I just love it. Like, I'm like, I have to do this, this is so cool. Thomas

0:51:42 Eli: Plays it, takes 2 by himself, got two controllers, one hand on each

0:51:47 Thomas: Beats co-op portal by himself like with I don't know, I love it, I love it, it's so fun yeah

0:51:49 Eli: Exactly yeah all by myself yeah

0:51:56 Tom: Didn't play video games. I, as an aside, when I was in college, I didn't do a single group project as a group. I just was like, I just, I'm just gonna do that, it's easier for, I'll just, I'll do the group project, Iíll be the group of one, yeah.

0:52:08 Thomas: I think our audience is a lot of those people who are like, alright, the group project's on me, then, yeah, okay.

0:52:12 Tom: Yeah

0:52:14 Eli: Yeah. I think a tremendous amount of our audience. Let me tell you, I found the perfect niche for the group project because everyone's going to be like, oh, Eli, I bet you were the guy who didn't do anything. No, no, no. That's not true because I'm stupid, but I am decidedly better at talking than you are. So I would say, look, here's the deal, smart kids. You do all the reading and the writing, but I will do all of the talking. And they would be like oh, you mean America's number number one fear, speaking in public, and I'd be like, yes, I will do that one. And every time they would be like oh you're the best man. They'd go off to the library and they'd use their Rubik's cubes or whatever the fuck they were doing to get the information.

0:52:14 Tom: I

0:52:24 Thomas: No, yeah yeah yeah

0:52:53 Eli: And then they'd bring it, it back they'd to me and I would usually put some, I'd pump it up with some jokes put a couple of bits in there plus every single time.

0:53:02 Thomas: Eli, exactly the same. I was exactly the same thing, except not as good as it, obviously. They, my groups that I worked with, got a real fucking short end of the deal if they could edit you. But I was the same thing. And you know what I wonder, if you had this experience, you know, it pissed me off more than anything was when there was someone else in the group where you're kind of working this out, you're like, yeah, I love, I'm funny, I like doing this stuff, I'll make it, I'll be good at this presentation, trust me, and then there's some fucking nerd who's like, no, no, I want to do it, and they, yeah, and they think they're good at it, but really they just want to like show that they're like smart and And they're actually not good speakers in any way, but they're insistent. They're like, no, I want to do it. I'm going to. And so not only do you have an inferior like presentation, that also means that you have to find something else

0:53:16 Eli: What?

0:53:27 Eli: Oh, and they're like no, me. Yup. Yup. Yeah yes

0:53:47 Thomas: To do. You're like. Oh, fucking.

0:53:47 Eli: And then they would send me to the fucking library, and I'm trying to suck the librarian's dick to figure out what the Dewey Decimal System is, and then this motherfucker spends the entire presentation staring at his shoes. Even get me started.

0:54:01 Thomas: It's the worst.

0:54:02 Eli: This story, of this happening I saved, this so good, three of us were doing a thing, it's exactly what happened, I was like, hey, I'll do the, because we had done a group project before and this guy was like, actually I'd love to do it this time, and I was like, oh, okay, and I didn't want to be an asshole, I didn't want to be an asshole.

0:54:17 Eli: I so I I got my voice real high. He said, no, no, no, I want to do it. He was so nervous the day of the presentation that he didn't show up to class, so he didn't show up to class, he was sort of yes.

0:54:17 Thomas: Your voice goes really high. Oh,

0:54:32 Tom: What? What? He just bailed on it. Yeah

0:54:33 Thomas: God. Oh, my God.

0:54:36 Eli: He was like, I'm so sorry, guys.

0:54:36 Thomas: That's a that's a fucking death penalty. That's the death.

0:54:38 Tom: See, and is why I

0:54:40 Thomas: I'm sorry.

0:54:37 Eli: Yeah

0:54:40 Tom: Don't do any group projects. I just didn't have a group. Oh,

0:54:42 Eli: Well, I'll tell you what I did, I took off one of my shoes and I made a sock puppet, and I used the sock puppet to do his part of our presentation, which we gotta be minus on because I had a bare foot out during most of the thing, but I did him as a sock puppet because that was the only way I could think to do the presentation. Yeah.

0:54:53 Tom: My God. Oh

0:54:57 Thomas: Nice oh god I'm just flashing back to when the fucking people insisted on doing the reading and you're like god just let me do the the presentation and they're reading their really stilted language that they wrote out and they're making no eye contact AND THEY THINK IT'S LIKE A CHARM BUT ACTUALLY YOU KNOW LIKE YOU CAN HEAR FROM THEIR TONE LIKE YOU'RE NOT YOU'RE NOT TALKING TO ANYBODY I CAN TELL YOU'RE not this is terrible this is bad you're not this

0:55:19 Tom: My God.

0:55:19 Eli: Oh like, and it goes even further back to like English class, where the teacher would do popcorn and they'd be like, popcorn, Eli, and I'd belike one day as I walked, popcorn, Steve, the the goat, what, and and I'll be like, oh my God, Steve, I finished the chapter, come on, I before we go, important news, um, actually met a Polish sound engineer yesterday, and a Czech one too, Czech won two, God, trust that

0:56:10 Thomas: Until you repeated it because you didn't need to trust your audience trust your

0:56:10 Tom: You know Speak for yourself, Thomas, I, I could use the repeat, that was good.

0:56:19 Thomas: I'd just not get it and Eli and I can laugh

0:56:22 Eli: That's him, so

0:56:25 Tom: All

0:56:29 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:57:08 Eli: Story, would you like, would you, you like the story of a small child proving me that I was completely correct about our episode about apologies, or would you like this story about me telling a complete stranger to commit suicide in the middle of Target, uh,

0:57:25 Thomas: What?